Pizza. Seems easy enough. Except it's not. So many choices . . . which lead to so many debates. Thick v. thin. Tomato sauce v. pesto. Meat or not. Parm cheese or not.

We've even written a pizza book: PIZZA: GRILL IT, BAKE IT, LOVE IT! It's a collection of recipes in which everyone is made for both the grill and the oven. If you want to see that book, you can check it out here.

We're Bruce Weinstein & Mark Scarbrough, authors of thirty-six cookbooks, plus two knitting books (from Bruce), plus a memoir (from Mark), and yet more cookbooks in the works. We're delighted to share our passion about food and cooking with you. Thanks for joining us.

Here are the segments for this episode of COOKING WITH BRUCE & MARK:

[01:03] Our one-minute cooking tip: Ignore the TikTok trend of washing ground beef.

[04:22] The great pizza debate: crust, toppings, origins, the whole thing!

[18:32] What’s making us happy in food this week: sake and fresh-caught tuna.

Hey, I'm Bruce Weinstein and this is the podcast cooking with Bruce

2

Mark: and Mark and I'm Mark Scarbrough

and together with Bruce My husband we

3

have written three dozen cookbooks.

4

Let's always tell you this.

5

We are currently in editorial

over the 37th cookbook.

6

I can't wait to tell you about it.

7

Just you wait.

8

Oh my god Gosh, we're going to talk

about jam and jelly and chili crisp

9

and chili oil and barbecue sauce and

mustard and chutney homemade triple

10

sec and All just all kinds of things.

11

I cannot wait or as my mother would say

all kind of things So we're going to

12

talk about all kind of things here on the

podcast But uh, that's up ahead in the

13

future when we talk about that book for

the moment We're going to talk about a

14

one minute cooking tip that has to do with

our pushback against the tick tock friend.

15

We're going to have

the great pizza debate.

16

Well, we're not really going

to debate it because we're on

17

the same side of that debate.

18

So there is no debate, but okay,

we'll talk about the great pizza

19

debate and we'll tell you what's

making us happy in food this week.

20

So let's get started.

21

Bruce: Our one minute cooking tips.

22

Ignore the TikTok trend

of washing ground beef.

23

Oh, it's so gross.

24

Seriously, one person doing it

in a colander, washed his ground

25

beef, got 5 million views.

26

Mark: I, I, I, you know, you may

know this if you watch TikTok.

27

Surreals or tic tac, but there is a

woman who does a feed in which she

28

reacts to disgusting cooking videos.

29

And she always starts by saying,

everybody's so creative and it's supposed

30

to be incredibly sarcastic because she's

going to gross out at what they make.

31

So anyway, she's always on them

about they did, Oh, just stick the

32

chicken in the pan without washing it.

33

And I always think to myself.

34

Yeah.

35

Don't wash the chicken.

36

She's

37

Bruce: probably one of those people

that like washes it with soap.

38

No, no, no.

39

Mark: She reacts to somebody who

washes chicken with soap at one point.

40

But, um, the reason, okay, the USDA

says do not wash meat in your sink.

41

And here's why, because if you

wash ground beef, gross, or

42

Bruce: how do you even wash ground beef?

43

I don't understand it.

44

Mark: or, uh, chuck roast, or chicken

thighs, or turkey cutlets, or whatever

45

it is, the chances are you are

going to have tiny, even microscopic

46

splatters of water around your

sink, and some of these may contain

47

bacteria that can become problematic

as they sit at room temperature.

48

So, you do not want to wash this.

49

Bugs are not good.

50

Cured by water.

51

They are cured by heat.

52

They are.

53

Bruce: So,

54

Mark: they get taken care of by heat.

55

Bruce: The only reason you wash your hands

like after going to the bathroom to get

56

rid of bugs is because you're using soap.

57

And the soap helps get rid of bacteria.

58

Do not put soap on your ground beef.

59

Do not put soap on your steaks.

60

Do not put soap on your chicken.

61

Wait, is

62

Mark: somebody putting soap on stuff?

63

Bruce: Yes, people do.

64

Go back to TikTok.

65

People are washing their hands.

66

They're food with soap.

67

Okay,

68

Mark: they're idiots.

69

That's clickbait.

70

They're doing that in order to get clicks.

71

To get outrage.

72

It was

73

Bruce: many years ago, but I think

I once saw my sister in law do it.

74

Fruit.

75

She'd wash fruit with soap.

76

Oh, gosh.

77

Um.

78

And fruit that she's even

gonna peel like a banana.

79

Mark: Oh.

80

Ha ha ha.

81

Okay, well, whatever.

82

Um, so anyway, just in terms of meat,

just remember, uh, the bad things

83

are killed by heat, not by water.

84

So, just don't worry about it.

85

Now, if you open a package or something

and it smells off, throw it out.

86

Throw, and go back to the

87

Bruce: store and complain.

88

Remember, throw it out.

89

Get your money back.

90

Mark: Throw it out, period.

91

Get your money back.

92

There's no, no hamburger in the

world is worth, I don't know

93

what, 48 hours in the bathroom.

94

So listen, throw it out, but otherwise

cook it and that will kill the bad things.

95

Before we get to the next segment

of this podcast, uh, I want to

96

say that we do have a newsletter.

97

It comes out twice a month.

98

I don't know about that.

99

Then, uh, it's got recipes that

are sometimes disconnected, often

100

disconnected from this podcast.

101

They're in fact, recipes for our TikTok

channel, cooking with Bruce and Mark.

102

Oh, it's got other things about our

lives, about our colleague, about our

103

life in New England, that kind of thing.

104

If you'd like to get that newsletter,

you can get it in your mailbox that

105

going to our website cooking with Bruce

and mark.com or Bruce and mark.com.

106

You can sign up there.

107

I do not.

108

See or capture your email, nor do I

let the provider capture your email.

109

So no worries.

110

And you can unsubscribe at any time.

111

All right.

112

Up next, the great pizza.

113

It's not really a debate because

we're not going to debate it,

114

but okay, the great pizza debate.

115

Bruce: First, some history.

116

Pizza is believed to have

been born in Naples, Italy.

117

I'm gonna stop.

118

AFC, we're already debating.

119

Mark: Yeah, okay, now we're gonna

debate, because that is a highly

120

contentious claim, that pizza was

somehow, uh, originated in Naples, Italy.

121

There are lots of people who claim that

pizza Pizza is a North American invention.

122

So just so you know, that's

automatically controversial.

123

Bruce: I don't know.

124

Have you been to Naples recently?

125

I have.

126

They have signs everywhere.

127

Have you

128

Mark: been to New York and seen the sushi?

129

What does that have to do with anything?

130

Have you been to Japan and

seen the cheeseburgers?

131

What

132

Bruce: does that

133

Mark: have to do with anything?

134

Bruce: But pizza, even in the US,

is referred to as Neapolitan style.

135

It's like the New York style of pizza.

136

So you're

137

Mark: going to, you.

138

who worked in advertising for

20 years are going to believe

139

monikers and labels on things.

140

They're

141

Bruce: very good at convincing me.

142

Do, do go on.

143

Okay, so, okay, let's go into the

assumption that pizza did come from Italy.

144

Mark: Okay, fine.

145

Bruce: Neapolitan pizza is actually very

close in style to New York style pizza,

146

and that is a thin crust with thick edges,

and you toss up the pizza, and you get

147

a thin in the middle, but you have a

nice thick edge, but here's the thing.

148

Pizza was not very popular

until it reached America through

149

Italian immigrants in the 1940s.

150

Mark: And this is where

the big debate comes in.

151

And this is, this is

true of many food things.

152

It's a question of where

do things come from?

153

And is it that Italian immigrants came

here, saw something that was being made

154

and made it better, or Is it because

it was reminiscent of tomato and pasta

155

sauce, or did they bring it with them?

156

And it's hard to pin this down.

157

In the last show, if you listen

to it, we could pin the slow

158

cooker right onto Irving Naxon

and say, it came from a bakery in

159

Lithuania and this is what happened.

160

It was

161

Bruce: the Naxon Beanery.

162

Yeah.

163

Mark: And so we can pin

that one right down.

164

But If you do a deep dive into many

really established food traditions, you

165

know, that they're very hard to find.

166

Where do these things

start and who started them?

167

Because of course, people

traverse boundaries, oceans, they

168

immigrate, they move, they bring

their food culture with them.

169

Right.

170

Sushi, as practiced in the United

States, bears no resemblance.

171

to sushi as practiced in Japan, except

that now in Japan, there are North

172

American style sushi restaurants.

173

So there you go.

174

It's a global

175

Bruce: world.

176

Well, growing up, there was VI Pizza

in Bayside, which was, of course,

177

we all thought the best pizza in

the world, although it was so greasy

178

that I would have to blot the top

of the slices to get the grease off.

179

But they had both this New York

style, thin with a thick edge.

180

And they also have what

they called Sicilian.

181

So.

182

Is that really true that in Sicily,

they like thicker crust pizza?

183

I

184

Mark: believe that that's true

in the North American landscape,

185

and I believe that the North

American culinary traditions have

186

influenced things back in Italy.

187

That immigrants came here, started

things, went back to Italy, or sent

188

recipes back to Italy, or people here as

tourists went to Italy and went to Sicily

189

and said, Where's the Sicilian pizza?

190

And so a demand was born.

191

These things are very hard to pin down.

192

Now.

193

I know many Italians will hold very

hard to this and it's probably right.

194

Bruce is probably right.

195

That pizza is.

196

It's ultimately somewhere

an Italian conceived thing.

197

He's probably right about that,

but it's just highly debated

198

in the food historian world.

199

Bruce: Okay, well, I want to start

with what belongs on a pizza, okay?

200

Of course, cheese, right?

201

And of course, yeah, I know.

202

And of course.

203

tomato, but then there were white pizzas.

204

But let's, let's start with

the basic margarita pizza.

205

You got cheese, you got tomatoes.

206

What else?

207

We both believe keep it light because

you don't want to put enough on there

208

to cover the taste of that dough.

209

Pizza's all about that delicious dough.

210

If you

211

Mark: go to a decent place, if

you go to a run of the mill, pizza

212

chain, the dough is not so great.

213

But if you go to a local place making

pizza, shout out in our world to Roberto's

214

pizza in Sheffield, Massachusetts,

and to Marzano's pizza in Torrington,

215

Connecticut, if they're making their

own dough as those places are, then you

216

really do want that yeast raised dough.

217

You

218

Bruce: want that yeast raised dough.

219

They even make a thick

one at this at Marzano's.

220

That they ferment it so it

has a sourdough quality.

221

They call it a grandmother pie.

222

They, see, they're not calling it

Sicilian, they're calling it a nonna pie.

223

Right.

224

So it's kind of crazy.

225

So Mark and I are in agreement

that you keep the toppings light.

226

So it means either none or few,

so you could taste the dough.

227

Mark: I have to say, because you

probably know this, that I don't come

228

from the East Coast, and I did, I

moved to New York and I'm from Texas.

229

And until I moved to New

York, I did not know that you

230

could buy pizza by the slice.

231

I had no concept that that was the truth.

232

Now I understand there are plenty

of pizza joints across the U.

233

S.

234

where you can buy them by the slice.

235

But when I moved to New York,

I didn't know this was a thing.

236

I moved

237

Bruce: to New York in the mid 90s.

238

In fact, when you said I had a

slice for lunch, it meant pizza.

239

You say, what do you want for dinner?

240

I want a slice.

241

It means you want pizza, because almost

every pizza place you would go into

242

would sell you a whole pizza, sure.

243

But they had seven or eight pizzas out,

and they'd give you a slice of one.

244

And

245

Mark: I'll tell you another thing that

I didn't know until I moved to New

246

York, and that is, of course, that New

Yorkers fold the slice in the middle.

247

They fold it from the tip of

the corner back to the crust,

248

and this way they eat it clean.

249

Kind of like a sandwich.

250

And I grew up in a world in which A,

you had to let it cool and B, you had

251

to hold the slice way up over your

head so that the end of it, when it

252

dripped down, you can actually bite it.

253

Yes.

254

Folded.

255

Yeah, I didn't know that

until I moved to New York.

256

We had some

257

Bruce: this summer, we had some friends

visiting from Spain with their kid,

258

and he was saying that The best part of

a pizza is that first bite at the tip

259

of a slice and that's all he wanted.

260

Mark: I'm not sure.

261

I don't agree.

262

And

263

Bruce: he said he would rather

eat the first, the tip around each

264

slice and then leave everybody

else the rest of the pizza.

265

And I said, so I said, well,

why don't we just cut the

266

circle out of the middle first?

267

And he said, no, no.

268

The point is eating the tip

and you have to eat eight tips.

269

Mark: And you probably know

that there is a grand finale.

270

fork and knife debate about pizza.

271

Of course, Americans eat pizza with

their hands, eat everything with our

272

hands, sometimes our feet with our feet.

273

Exactly.

274

Um, but, you know, other places

they do eat, they fork and knife.

275

Oh, the UK

276

Bruce: fork and knife.

277

Mark: Uh, there's a lot of Italians

who will insist on fork and knifing it.

278

So, uh, yes, it's a fork and knife thing.

279

There are a lot of

French who will Exactly.

280

Cyst on fork and knifing it.

281

They're the same

282

Bruce: people

283

Mark: that

284

Bruce: fork a

285

Mark: knife, a hamburger.

286

Yes, exactly.

287

That's exactly right.

288

Um, in the US eating things with your

hands is not considered de classe, but

289

it is considered de classe other places.

290

And so there is this

fork and knife debate.

291

Bruce: Yeah.

292

Okay.

293

I don't believe it.

294

I'm a hands guy.

295

Mark: Uh,

296

Bruce: hands on.

297

Mark: Yeah.

298

Do as those who are doing

around you, do as they say.

299

Uh, anyway, as you know, of course,

there are different kinds of pizzas,

300

thick and thin, and I think this is

what Bruce meant as we were talking

301

about it, about the great pizza debate,

but I don't really have a debate.

302

Bruce and I both like thin crust pizzas.

303

Bruce: We like thin crust, but what's

happened is, Over the last two decades,

304

that New York style thin pizza with

the thick crust has evolved, and

305

artisanal pizza places have come up,

and they have started Like Howie's

306

Mark: in Silicon

307

Bruce: Valley.

308

In Palo Alto.

309

Mm, that's really good.

310

And what they do is make a

thin crust pizza that's thin

311

all the way to the edges.

312

Yes.

313

So it doesn't have the thick.

314

It's like Howie's.

315

It's like Howie's.

316

And so it's even thinner.

317

And so basically now I'm referring

to it as a thin pizza and a cracker

318

crust pizza because they get it so

thin that it's almost cracker crust.

319

Which is what

320

Mark: I prefer.

321

I want my pizza crust to be

essentially matzo with yeast.

322

Yeah.

323

I mean, I want it really thin.

324

And I ask for my pizza, I don't know

if you know this, but I'm going to

325

tell you, I ask for my pizza well

done, which means I want it burned.

326

And when they say, Oh,

you want it well done?

327

I always say, Oh, yeah.

328

burn it.

329

I want to see charred black and

bits at the edges of my pizza.

330

That's how I want to see

it because I want it super

331

Bruce: done.

332

It's easy to do that

also on a cracker cross.

333

And here's where Mark and I don't agree.

334

And it is a bit of a debate.

335

I prefer it the old New York style thin

in the middle and thick on the edges.

336

And he likes it thin all

the way to the edges.

337

Yeah, that's a little too

thin for me, partly because

338

you can't put anything on it.

339

Any toppings on that because

the crust can barely even hold

340

Mark: it.

341

I seem to do okay with my ricotta.

342

So my favorite pizza, the one that I

order everywhere, is with ricotta, sautéed

343

onions, sautéed spinach, and jalapenos.

344

And

345

Bruce: you have tomato sauce.

346

Mark: And you have tomato sauce.

347

And

348

Bruce: mozzarella.

349

Mark: Yeah, and then I put add

ricotta, add sautéed spinach,

350

sautéed onions, and jalapenos.

351

That's my go to pizza.

352

Bruce: I'm not a mozzarella fan,

so I actually love pizza only with

353

some Parmigiano Reggiano and then

lots of sausage and pepperoni.

354

To me, that and when Yes, you want

355

Mark: the whole meat experience.

356

And when it comes

357

Bruce: out, I dump an entire bottle

of chili flakes on it, because I want

358

Mark: Yes, he doesn't actually do

that, but I will tell you that in

359

any pizza restaurant, Bruce unscrews

the top of the red pepper flakes.

360

You can't shake them

out, that's ridiculous.

361

And he goes into it and pours

them everything the top of.

362

Okay.

363

So, you know, there's all this kind of

stuff about gas ovens and wood fire ovens.

364

I'm going to tell you that there are

many places that run coal fire ovens.

365

In fact, Bruce and I were in Chicago

once for, oh God, an overeating season.

366

civeritic five days in which we just

went from restaurant to restaurant.

367

And when we landed at O'Hare, we made a

beeline to a coal driven pizza restaurant.

368

And even

369

Bruce: though it was in

Chicago, it was not deep dish.

370

No, it was not.

371

It was not thick, because I could tell

you that even though we don't necessarily

372

agree on thin to the edges or not,

neither of us are big fans of that deep

373

dish or the Sicilian or the nonna pies.

374

It's too

375

Mark: much bread.

376

The thing I love about coal

fired oven pizza is that.

377

You can really get the blackened bits.

378

I mean, you can totally

get blackened bits on

379

Bruce: it.

380

Mark: I

381

Bruce: mean,

382

Mark: I just love

383

Bruce: that more than

I could possibly say.

384

And wood fire pizza gives you a little

bit of smoke, and it's really nice.

385

I mean, most New York

pizzerias, it's gas ovens.

386

But, hey, I grew up on that,

and that's perfectly fine.

387

At home, I do it two ways.

388

Sometimes I take out the kettle grill,

and I put wood fire, and I put a stone

389

on there, and we get real flames.

390

Sometimes I do it on the gas

grill, but then I Pile up my pizza

391

Mark: stone and another big debate

here about pizza is of course beer

392

versus wine There's no debate.

393

If you know anything, you know

that Italians are horrified.

394

Many Italians are horrified at wine

with pizza It's a it's a horrifying.

395

It's a beer Italians.

396

Bruce: It's a beer and

397

Mark: right exactly It's beer fair

and now I'm gonna say that I don't

398

take part in this debate of beer

versus wine because now I'm gonna tell

399

you just how absolutely gross I am.

400

I prefer Diet Coke.

401

And that's what I have with my pizza.

402

Do not at me or write in, I have Diet

Coke with pizza and that's what I like.

403

Bruce: Fine, it's better

than orange juice.

404

I can't imagine orange juice and pizza.

405

Even milk is better than orange juice.

406

No, citrus juice with

407

Mark: pizza.

408

You know, great combinations,

like orange juice and toothpaste.

409

Um, yeah, no, I am

definitely the Diet Coke guy.

410

I can't help it, it's just too much.

411

I like Diet Coke.

412

You can take the boy out of Dallas, but

you cannot take the Dallas out of the boy.

413

Dallas is

414

Bruce: Diet Dr.

415

Pepper.

416

Mark: No, in my world it was Diet Coke.

417

Dr.

418

Pepper in my world was rural Texas

and rural Oklahoma when I was a kid.

419

That's what my grandparents

drank who lived in the boonies.

420

Not Mr.

421

Pibbs?

422

No, Mr.

423

Pibb comes along much

later than when I'm born.

424

No, absolutely not.

425

Bruce: Not Moxie?

426

Mark: I don't even, I don't

know what you're saying.

427

I keep saying things, and I don't know

why you're saying them to me, actually.

428

Um, no, it was Diet Coke.

429

Do you not believe me?

430

Do you want to go back and check?

431

It was Diet Coke, and that's how I

still like my pizza, is Diet Coke.

432

And here's another thing that

you should know, and I'm going

433

to step into this debate.

434

Here's another debate.

435

I despise cold pizza.

436

I despise

437

Bruce: it.

438

You also despise cold Chinese food.

439

I despise it.

440

They have the perfect breakfast.

441

Both of them love cold pizza.

442

In fact, my favorite beer is

made locally here in Connecticut

443

called Cold Pizza Pilsner.

444

Mark: God, I wouldn't even

order it for the name.

445

Much less whether I thought

that beer was good or not.

446

I'm not a fan of leftover

Chinese food or leftover pizza.

447

I don't like it.

448

It's gross.

449

You can have whatever you want.

450

Eat all your congealed

meats and congealed things.

451

I just don't like it.

452

But

453

Bruce: here's a tip.

454

Cold pizza reheats so beautifully

in three minutes in the air fryer.

455

Yeah, now

456

Mark: there I'll eat it.

457

Now I'll eat the leftover

458

Bruce: pizza.

459

the slice in the air fryer, turn the

air fryer on, and within three minutes,

460

it's sizzling and hot and crunchy.

461

Mark: Yeah, that's a great way to

eat leftover pizza, in my opinion,

462

although I know I'm the vast minority.

463

Most people just like it

straight out of the fridge.

464

Before we get to the final segment

of this podcast, what's making us

465

happy in food this week, let me

say, it would be great if you could

466

subscribe to this podcast and rate it.

467

If you subscribe to it, you

won't miss a single episode.

468

And as you know, we are unsupported.

469

We do not have sponsors.

470

And so the way that you can help us

along, we prefer not to have sponsors

471

is to just write a review, like

Great podcast, or you made me laugh.

472

Anything like that would be

terrific in the analytics.

473

Thanks for doing that.

474

Okay.

475

As is traditional, our final segment,

what's making us happy in food this week?

476

Bruce: Sake.

477

Normally I don't like sake.

478

I mean, it's not that I don't like it.

479

It just never does anything for me.

480

It's not complex.

481

It's usually too

482

Mark: sweet.

483

A thousand Japanese people are right now.

484

A thousand, a million, 10

million, a hundred million

485

are about to come after you.

486

I wish we had that many followers.

487

Followers in Japan.

488

Bruce: So we were invited to friends

the other day and they were going to

489

serve some fish and I said, Oh, I'm

going to bring sake rather than the

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typical champagne we would bring.

491

And we went to don't you want to

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Mark: invite us over to get

a bottle of champagne and

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Bruce: we went to total wine and

I'm looking at the sake and I ended

494

up picking a bottle of sake that

costs twice what a normal bottle

495

of champagne was going to cost us.

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Oh yeah.

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This was

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Mark: way up in experience.

499

Stratosphere levels of expense.

500

But I also

501

Bruce: know that good sake can be

expensive, and we got it, we opened it,

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and even the people at this party who

said, No, I don't like sake, I'm not

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gonna have it, tasted it, and we finished

that bottle in about five minutes.

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Yeah, we did.

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So sake is making me happy.

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It tasted like

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Mark: rice.

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It had a slightly woody taste to it,

it had incredible complexity in the

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sweetness, it was really fine sake.

510

You did a great job picking

out that bottle of sake.

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Um, what was making me happy in Food

This Week is where that sake was served.

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At that dinner, Bruce said

they served some fish.

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Well, not just a fish.

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fish.

515

Their friends had been out on a

boat, oh, a hundred miles out in

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the Atlantic Ocean from the eastern

seaboard, and they caught a giant

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bluefin and a giant bigeye tuna, both.

518

And so our friends got the

belly of the bluefin, right?

519

And then they got a loin

section from the bigeye.

520

We ate it all.

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So we started with the bluefin

as sushi and our friends, uh,

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said sliced it for sashimi and

our friends had sliced it thin.

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It was raw and they served it either.

524

You could have it with seaweed salad and,

uh, uh, tamari or soy sauce, or they also

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made a really nice citrus vinaigrette.

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You could pour over it

either one that you wanted.

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And then we had.

528

giant plates of tuna steaks off the grill.

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Just, I mean, really, it was ridiculous

how much tuna was on my plate.

530

This steak, it was huge

and it was spectacular.

531

Bruce: That made me happy too.

532

Yeah.

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Mark: I mean, it was a

spectacular meal and so generous

534

that they shared it with us.

535

Okay.

536

That's the podcast for this week.

537

Thanks for being on the journey with us.

538

Thanks for letting us tell you what's

making us happy and for this week,

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for giving you one minute cooking tips

and for debating things like this.

540

pizza, which ended up being a little

bit of a debate, I guess, about beer and

541

wine and cold pizza and all that stuff.

542

Okay, so it did.

543

Thanks for being a part of this journey

and we appreciate your time with us.

544

Bruce: Do you like your

pizza cold and leftover?

545

Do you like it thin?

546

Do you like it thick?

547

What toppings do you like?

548

Go to our Facebook group, Cooking

with Bruce and Mark, and tell us

549

all about how you like your pizza.

550

We want to know what is going on

in your head and in your kitchen,

551

here on Cooking with Bruce and Mark.