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Personality Disorders and High Conflict Divorce with Bill Eddy
Episode 10820th October 2023 • Her Empowered Divorce • Beverly Price
00:00:00 00:54:39

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PERSONALITY DISORDERS AND HIGH CONFLICT BEHAVIORS IN DIVORCE

GUEST: Bill Eddy, LCSW, Esq. Co-founder and Chief Innovation Officer High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California

SUMMARY: 

Personality disorders can significantly complicate the already challenging process of divorce. Individuals with personality disorders, such as borderline, antisocial, or narcissistic personality disorder, often exhibit traits that can fuel conflict in divorce proceedings. Their intense emotions, impulsivity, and difficulty regulating behavior can lead to erratic and volatile interactions with their soon-to-be ex-spouse. Additionally, individuals with these disorders may have a distorted sense of self-worth and a strong need for control, making negotiations and compromise more challenging, and learning how to deal with the situation is critical. In this episode of Her Empowered Divorce, your Host, Beverly Price, talks to Bill Eddy, LCSW, Esq. Co-founder and Chief Innovation Officer High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California. Together, they discuss personality disorders, how they present themselves in relationships and the divorce process, and how to deal with the resulting conflict behaviors.

KEY TAKEAWAYS: 

  • What are personality disorders? Personality disorders are a significant part of the population but are not obvious except in close relationships. They manifest as extreme behavior that repeats even when they are self-defeating and often end up in conflict. 
  • Why is he doing this to me, and why is he acting that way? Early on, you get along well because you are flexible, they are getting what they want, and have little demands, but suddenly, when you stop giving them what they want, the borderline switches to the all-negative. 
  • What is the most difficult part of working with high-conflict individuals? You will not persuade them to move things, so instead, focus on what your choices are and give them choices. 
  • Are personality disorders genetic, environmental, or upbringing? All the above. Genetics and upbringing are the biggest factors, but the good news is that these people can be treated or helped to achieve balance and control over their behavior.
  • Whether living with a partner with a personality disorder or in the divorce process, the most important thing you can do is get a support system for yourself and cultivate your self-worth.

 

NOTABLE QUOTES:

  • High conflict behavior is a preoccupation with blaming others and not taking responsibility, a lot of all-or-nothing thinking, unmanaged emotions that take over, and extreme behavior. (Bill) 
  • One of the most important conversations is that first conversation with your spouse, telling them you want a divorce; it can set the tone for the divorce process and co-parenting. (Beverly) 
  • You get back what you put out, so if you can put out calm, meta facts and reason, you are more likely to get that back; however, some people start off aggressively, which ends up escalating things unnecessarily. (Bill) 
  • Courts often adopt the first story, and anti-social are quick with their stories of how the other person is a terrible person, and even when it’s not true, it’s hard to recover from that once the story is out there, but you have to counter that with reality. (Bill) 
  • Personality disorders have a sugar coating; when you first meet these people, they are super wonderful. So when you start seeing little boundaries being violated, it is a sign this could get bigger. (Bill) 
  • If you are dealing with someone who has been violent, there’s a higher risk that they will be violent when they get bad news, so you want to deliver bad news in a therapist's office where there is someone who can help talk about it or have your lawyer deliver the news when you are in a safe place. (Bill) 

BIFF for co-parent communication: https://www.amazon.com/BIFF-Co-Parent-Communication-Difficult-Conflict/dp/1950057100

ABOUT OUR GUEST: 

Bill Eddy, LCSW, Esq. is the co-founder and Chief Innovation Officer of the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California. He pioneered the High Conflict Personality Theory (HCP) and has become an expert on managing disputes involving people with high-conflict personalities. He was the Senior Family Mediator at the National Conflict Resolution Center for 15 years, a Certified Family Law Specialist lawyer representing clients in family court for 15 years, and a licensed clinical social worker therapist with twelve years of experience.

 

Bill serves on the faculty of the Straus Institute for Dispute Resolution at the Pepperdine University School of Law in California and is a Conjoint Associate Professor with the University of Newcastle Law School in Australia. He has been a speaker and trainer in over 35 U.S. states and 13 countries. He is the author or co-author of over 20 books, manuals, and workbooks. He is co-host of the podcast It's All Your Fault, which he co-hosts with Megan Hunter, MBA, and has a popular blog on the Psychology Today website with millions of views.

FOLLOW OUR GUEST: 

Bill Eddy

Website: https://www.highconflictinstitute.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bill-eddy-bba98a1b/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/highconflictinstitute/?hl=en

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnPDugfElJEgWCHbZhMGttw

Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/its-all-your-fault-the-high-conflict-institute-podcast/id1589280156

ABOUT YOUR HOST:

Beverly Price is the empowering divorce coach who guides women on their journey before, during, and after divorce to eliminate pain, overwhelm, sadness, and anger and create more knowledge, skill, and peace that she experienced herself. In her 30 years of divorce coaching experience she has help thousands of women move through divorce, fully prepared with skills that enhance the results of their divorce process.

Remember, divorce doesn’t have to be a death sentence. With the right support and guidance, you can move through the process with knowledge, skills, and confidence. If you’d like to schedule a complimentary private consultation, reach out to Beverly at: 

https://Beverly-Price.as.me/ConsultationCall

 

CONTACT YOUR HOST:

Website: http://www.herempowereddivorce.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/her_empowered_divorce

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/herempowereddivorce/

Facebook Group: Her Empowered Divorce Tribe: https://www.facebook.com/groups/herempowereddivorcetribe

Visit https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/her-empowered-divorce/id1635143315 to access the entire archive of Her Empowered Divorce episodes, and while you’re there, please subscribe, rate, and review our show! 

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7kIcMXrj1tIWBOmaXBBn1U

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@herempowereddivorce1/

 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/beverly-price/

 

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Transcripts

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Hi, beautiful. I'm so glad you're here today. Most of us hope for an amicable or civil divorce and co-parenting relationship, but not all of us can have one. A hostile divorce takes its toll emotionally, legally, and financially. And that's why I've invited the best of the best to talk with us today about high conflict divorce. He's Bill Eddy.

Bill Eddy (:

Hehehe

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

and he's the co-founder and chief innovation officer of the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California. Hi Bill, I'm so pleased to have you here with me today.

Bill Eddy (:

Thank you so much, glad to be on Beverly.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Can you tell everyone a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Bill Eddy (:

Well, I'd say I started out as a licensed clinical social worker doing child and family counseling in outpatient clinics and psychiatric hospitals. But I really liked conflict resolution and a lot of the families I worked with were involved with divorce and legal disputes. And so I decided that I really wanted to do a lot of mediation, but that

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Okay.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Mm-hmm.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Mm-hmm.

Bill Eddy (:

I should become a lawyer to do that, which isn't required, but I decided to take that path. So I got a law degree and decided I should practice law for a couple of years before just doing mediation. Well that lasted 15 years. I represented clients in family court. And from the experience of being a counselor who became a lawyer with a mediation mindset,

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Okay, right.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Mmm.

Bill Eddy (:

I realized that there was a percent of cases that really were high conflict, not because of the issues. They had the same issues, parenting schedule, child support, all of that, but because of their personalities. And when I was trained as a therapist, I was also trained in personality disorders, and that was 1980. So I've got over 40 years thinking about personality disorders.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Mm-hmm.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Wow.

Bill Eddy (:

legal disputes, divorce, et cetera. So there's this percent of cases, maybe 10 to 15% of cases where it's the personality and the ways to deal with that became what I really studied and focused on and started teaching and writing about. So that's how I got here.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Wow, what a combination of skills. That's amazing. You mentioned there was a percentage of people in a high conflict situation. Do you have any guesstimate as to what that percentage is of overall divorces?

Bill Eddy (:

Well, people talk about high conflict divorces and a little bit how you define it, but most places you're seeing in the courts, judges, et cetera, it's really put between 10 and 20%. And since I see it, yeah, so the courts will tell you that probably 80% of their time is spent on 20% of the cases.

And that's your high conflict cases. Some judges say it's a three inch file. That's how you know it's a high three inches or more. Um, some people say two years or more in court. I, I kind of define high conflict as a preoccupation with blaming others and not taking responsibility. A lot of all or nothing thinking. And.

unmanaged emotions that take over may not be obvious, but they're driving the person, and extreme behaviors that from time to time, high conflict, people do things 90% of people would never do.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Exactly.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

So many times I think of it too as it's sometimes it's not necessarily the message, but it's the delivery and it's that feeling of hostility. And I even go back to that I think one of the most important conversations you can have is that first conversation with your spouse where you're telling them you want a divorce because I think the tone of that.

Bill Eddy (:

Yeah.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

can set the tone for the remainder of the divorce and co-parenting. Because if there's hostility there, it breeds hostility.

Bill Eddy (:

I think you're absolutely right. What people don't realize is you get back what you put out. And so if you can put out calm and matter of fact and reasonable, you're more likely to get that back. And a lot of people kind of jump the gun by thinking, well, the other person's gonna be aggressive, so I have to start out really aggressive. And that ends up escalating things unnecessarily. So I totally agree with you, yeah.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Yep.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Mm-hmm.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

right.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Absolutely. And you talk a little bit about that you study personality disorders. Can you tell us a little bit about what is a personality disorder?

Bill Eddy (:

Yeah.

Bill Eddy (:

Yeah, so personality disorders are a diagnosis in the diagnostic manual for mental health professionals. And the manual says that about 10% of the adult population has a personality disorder. So when I said 10 to 20% of court cases, I think it's because they often end up in court, in conflict. So that's why it could be twice as many in court.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Right.

Bill Eddy (:

than in the general population. But that's substantial if you figure that people, say with alcoholism, tend to be about 7% of the adult population, people with depression, anxiety, all of these things, that personality disorders are really a significant part of the population, but aren't obvious except mostly in close relationships.

Personality disorders tend to show a rigid way of thinking and being. They have a narrow range of behavior and they repeat and repeat and repeat that even when it's self-defeating. And so the main thing about personality disorder is a person stuck in a narrow range of behavior. Now in some cases that's high conflict behavior.

In other cases, it may be more avoidant behavior or obsessive compulsive personality style behavior, which often doesn't affect other people as much as it affects the individual with the disorder. But four of the personality disorders show up a lot in our high conflict cases. That's narcissistic, borderline, antisocial, and histrionic.

And they each have characteristic patterns of behavior, but they also often have three characteristics, and that's domineeringness, vindictiveness, and intrusiveness. And this is research that explains that, that tends to go with those four high-conflict personality disorders, which are also known as Cluster B.

personality disorders. So that's a real brief start on personality disorders. It stuck behavior more than anything else.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

You said earlier that it can be stuck behavior that's even to their detriment. Is, is there reasoning with these people to point out, for example, how it's hurting them to get them to stop? Can you reason with them?

Bill Eddy (:

Yes.

Bill Eddy (:

That's one of the things we teach is to forget about that. You're not going to be, because they have what's called an enduring pattern of behavior, and that means that they're not going to change their behavior, and that means they're not gonna reflect on their behavior. So they're preoccupied with what everybody else is doing and blaming you.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Okay.

Bill Eddy (:

saying, you know, you do this, you do that, and it's all this you, you finger pointing, and they can't look back at themselves. And it's really in a sense of disability that they can't look at themselves because that means they lose the opportunity to make their life better because when you change yourself is when you can make your life better. Yeah.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Right.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Exactly. Yeah, I always like to say if I'm not the problem, there is no solution to changing myself, but with these people, I think there's not that kind of thing.

Bill Eddy (:

Yeah, so it's frustrating, but they're not going to have insight. You're not going to persuade them of things. So what we say is instead focus on what your choices are now and give people choices, say, look, um, I'm not going to argue with you about the past. Let's look at what we can do now. Let's look at what our options are, our choices. If we're having that first conversation about wanting to separate.

and get a divorce is say, you know, we could go to mediation and that's what I hope we'll do. We could go to separate lawyers who would schedule a court hearing or we could consult with separate lawyers. But let's try to make this as amicable as possible. It's really up to both of us. And to say that's our choice rather than arguing over how we got here.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Yes, absolutely, absolutely. Can you share a little bit about each of the personality disorders? I think it seems like in the last six months to a year, that narcissism is on everybody's tongue. And I'd like to distinguish between a narcissist, a diagnosed narcissist, and someone that has narcissistic tendencies.

Bill Eddy (:

Right.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

But can you elaborate a little bit more on each one of the personality disorders?

Bill Eddy (:

Yes.

Bill Eddy (:

Yeah, so first of all, it reaches an extreme rigidity so that the person just is really stuck with that. And so most of the people that get told, oh, you're a narcissist or whatever, people just mean maybe the person's self-centered, thinks more of themselves than of other people. But the diagnosis includes several characteristics.

including a lack of empathy for others. And this surprises people sometimes, how much they really don't care how other people feel, and may be willing to embarrass and humiliate the other person. A drive to be seen as superior, that in order to be seen as superior, they have to point to somebody who's inferior. And so if you're their partner,

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Mmm.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Yes.

Bill Eddy (:

then you're the prime suspect for being pointed out as look at what she does wrong. She does this wrong. She does that wrong. Isn't this she's so ridiculous. She's just like hopeless. And I, on the other hand, am excellent at everything in the world, says the narcissist. And so it's that need to put people down. The demeaning, belittling statements that comes with the disorder.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Right.

Bill Eddy (:

a drive for admiration that's out of proportion to the reality. And that's part of the disorder. So fantasies of extreme power, beauty, wealth, all of this. And so you'll find narcissists, people with narcissistic personality disorder are always pumping themselves up and telling everybody else how wonderful they are.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Okay.

Bill Eddy (:

and really exaggerating things. You know, I met so-and-so, and you find out that they were in a room with 200 other people with so-and-so. And they never talked to so-and-so, and so-and-so never, but they were in the room. So they say, I met so-and-so. So it's, but to me, the biggest things, and the hardest is that drive to put people down, to belittle people, insult people.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Mm-hmm.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Hahaha

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Right.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Mm.

Bill Eddy (:

and the lack of empathy. And a lot of people don't think about that, but that's the hardcore of narcissism. And if you're on the receiving end of that, that can really cut into your self-esteem and make you really doubt yourself. So that's the characteristics with narcissistic personality disorder.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Absolutely.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Go ahead. I think there's border lines next.

Bill Eddy (:

Okay, so yeah, let's go with borderline. And by the way, there was a study that said that the US population, about 6%, have narcissistic personality disorder, adults, and about 6% have borderline personality disorder, but a lot of them have both. So there's overlap with these. So characteristic, the biggest characteristic of borderline

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Mmm.

Bill Eddy (:

is really wide mood swings. So it can be incredibly charming, friendly, wonderful, and then just change on a dime and they're attacking you, you're the worst person in the world. So they idealize people, then they devalue them. And so, and this is true of everybody in their life, including themselves. They're gonna say, I'm wonderful, I'm perfect, I don't need to change. And then another day...

They may even be suicidal. It's like, I'm the worst person in the world. I'm so disgusted with myself, this and that. And so emotions really drive the person in many ways. They call it emotion dysregulation. And so borderline really suffers from emotions just taking over at the worst times, damaging relationships, damaging career possibilities, getting them in trouble.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Wow.

Bill Eddy (:

harming their relationships with their children because kids have a really hard time with a parent with wide mood swings. Kids need stability. They need security. And so this is kind of the key characteristic. But part of the wide mood swings is sudden and intense anger. And it's often totally by surprise. And

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Sure.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Mm.

Bill Eddy (:

That's really hard if you're the spouse or partner of someone like that. You never know when it's coming. You're walking on eggshells. Um, and likewise for kids, it's hard for kids cause they never know. I got to please mom or dad so they don't yell at me. And, and so everything's kind of unstable and insecure.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Right.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Now, does alcoholism play into that? Because I know a part of that is very unstable behavior and a lot of remorse and then a lot of anger and tension, but the big moose wings.

Bill Eddy (:

Yeah, so all of these four cluster B personality disorders have a higher incidence of alcoholism. They tend to go to drugs or drugs and alcohol, for some it's drugs, some it's alcohol, in many ways to try to manage their mood. And sometimes when I worked in a psychiatric hospital with a drug and alcohol treatment program,

we'd get people clean and sober and some of them would actually behave worse. And often that's cause they had personality disorders. And so the, the lid came off in a sense that they were using drugs to manage their. Yeah. So we would see them get worse. Realize we got to deal with personality disorder. They got to really work at self.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Right.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Right. Self Medicaid. Yeah.

Bill Eddy (:

management, distress tolerance, all of these things. So that can exaggerate it because they seek that for relief, but it doesn't give relief, it creates more problems. Yeah.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Right, absolutely. And how about any social behavior disorder?

Bill Eddy (:

This one is a smaller percent, they say about 4% of the adult US population. And also some overlap with borderline, some with narcissists. But antisocial, the things that stand out, first of all, they lie a lot. They lie about everything. Narcissists exaggerate and maybe lie a little bit.

Antisocials just lie about everything. They fabricate things that totally don't exist. They'll tell stories, and I've seen many court cases where they've been very persuasive, because they'll say, you know, the mother is gatekeeping. She's blocking me from having a relationship with the children. This is terrible. She's abusive. She's alienating. She does everything wrong, and she's stupid, and blah, blah.

Next thing you know, the judge is coming down hard on the mom saying, mom, you've got a share of the kids. And mom's like, I do. He's got the kids more than half the time. And yet it doesn't sound like it because they're making stories up. And I've seen some bad cases, false allegations against moms with dads with antisocial personalities. I had a case.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Mm-hmm.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Gotcha.

Bill Eddy (:

consulted with a mom and she found out after six year marriage and two kids that her husband wasn't actually going to work every morning. That he was going out and playing and doing this and that and their money came from him siphoning money off from the mother's father's business. He figured out how to get into the business. So he was a total con artist and that she didn't even know. He didn't have a job.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Mmm.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Wow.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Wow.

Bill Eddy (:

for six years. So some people invest a lot in creating a pure fantasy of what they're doing. And they can be dangerous too. They can be aggressive. They're often physically abusive. And maybe lying a lot on their financial dealings. They're often work.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Mmm.

Bill Eddy (:

I've had a lot of cases where they work for themselves, so they totally control their money management, and it's very shady, and they may be not paying taxes, et cetera.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Right.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

hiding assets, that kind of thing. Yeah.

Bill Eddy (:

Yeah. And what people should know is that they have a lot of secrets. So if you think you have an antisocial partner and they lie all the time, they probably have secrets that you want to see if you can discover. They also can't keep track of their lives. So if you're in a court case, it's often pointing out, well, wait a minute, that's the opposite of what he said yesterday.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Gotcha.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Yes, absolutely. I have a client that's going through that right now. Absolutely.

Bill Eddy (:

Yeah. And courts really have a hard time figuring out these cases. They often first person to say, here's what the story is. They adopt that story. And antisocials are quick with their stories of how the other person's a terrible person. And much of it's not true. Maybe all of it's not true. But it's hard to recover from that once that story gets out there.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Yeah.

Bill Eddy (:

But you have to, you have to counter that with reality.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

You know, my clients will say to me, I don't understand, why is he doing this to me? Why is he acting that way? What would you say to a client that's saying that?

Bill Eddy (:

What we see, and this often goes with personality disorders, is that as long as they're happy, as long as things are going their way, maybe you're an easygoing person. And so early on, you get along great because you're flexible and they're a little demanding, but they're getting what they want. Then suddenly you stop giving them what they want.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Right.

Bill Eddy (:

like someone say borderline switches to the all negative because it's all positive, it's all negative. And now that's what you're seeing. And it can be, like I said, vindictive. And they, they blame a lot. All the personality disorders don't connect what happens to them, to their behavior. So they're preoccupied with blaming other people, especially their partner.

So it's not unusual. It catches people by surprise, but this side of the person has always been there. It's just been dormant while things have been going well. The average person isn't like that. They're not going to be vindictive. They're going to go, Whoa, you know, what can we do here? But people with personality disorders kind of go from one extreme to the other extreme. And now that's what you're seeing in a court case.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Right.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Are these disorders genetic or is it environment or how they were raised?

Bill Eddy (:

And the answer is yes. There seems to be all of the above, seem to be three main factors in personality development. I used to say it was early childhood was the biggest factor, but I would say now genetics may be the bigger factor because I've worked with a lot of people.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Ah!

all of the above.

Bill Eddy (:

who have families say they have three or four kids in the family and they're all adults now. One of them has a personality disorder and the others don't. And yet they were all raised the same way. Their early childhood was the same, no abuse history, no trauma history, and yet one comes out as very difficult to deal with in close relationships and the others are flexible and relatively easy. So I think

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

in the sink.

Bill Eddy (:

The genetic role of the dice may be the biggest factor. However, early childhood can be a huge factor. And for some people, that is the primary factor, especially if you're abused in those first five years, and really especially if you're abused by a parent. So if you have a parent who's beating you up or sexually abusing you or neglecting you and just not paying attention.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Gotcha.

Bill Eddy (:

that becomes part of your development. And it's much harder to overcome that. And by adulthood, that can be kind of stuck. You may see the world in very negative terms because you grew up in a negative world. And so you get the feeling sometimes people with personality disorders have a chip on their shoulder. That's what it feels like. And it comes...

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Right.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Oh, okay.

Bill Eddy (:

For many of them, it does come from childhood experiences, abuse by a parent or some other traumatic experience. The third factor is the cultural environment. And this can influence, so if you grow up, well, I like to say, if you grow up in a poor drug-dealing neighborhood, you're gonna develop a thick skin.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Right.

Bill Eddy (:

and some aggressive tendencies to survive. If you grow up in a pretty happy, pleasant, extended family, community, things are pretty easy for you, you're going to grow up with a personality that reflects that in many ways. Our culture, Western cultures, tend to value the individual over the group.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Right.

Bill Eddy (:

Eastern cultures, Japan, China, Thailand, all of those, tend to value the group over the individual. And that's part of people's personalities. So you can see how personalities are influenced by genetics, early childhood, and the culture environment.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Mmm.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Wow, can these people change?

Bill Eddy (:

Well, it depends in many ways on which kind of disorder they have. Nowadays, we're seeing a lot of success with treatment for borderline personality disorder, especially a method called DBT, dialectical behavior therapy. And what it teaches is people with, remember those wide mood swings, teaches them to manage those better and things they can tell themselves.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Okay.

Bill Eddy (:

And rather than overreacting to stress, is learning what they call distress tolerance. How I can allow myself to be in a stressful situation without having to react. So a lot of it's self-talk, what they tell themselves. Some of this they learn in group therapies. And some of it's just daily managing your life in a way where you don't overreact.

to things that you're more proportional. Like if you get angry that you can be a 10 angry instead of a 100 angry about somebody, you know, spilling the milk or something.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Gotcha, absolutely. So, great.

Bill Eddy (:

Now, let me mention that's borderline. So that's maybe the most hopeful. Narcissistic, some of them do progress, but they have to have a really good therapist that knows how to balance confronting them on their self-defeating behavior and supporting them for who they are. You have to have a balance because if you confront too hard, you lose them. And if you support too hard, you may actually make it worse. So you need a good therapist with that.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Right.

Bill Eddy (:

Histrionic personality, which we didn't really talk about, it's not as many, maybe 2% more dramatic, emotional, maybe some hope for them, like with narcissists, if you can get them into counseling. Antisocial seems to be more hardwired, and generally once they're adults, we really don't have a treatment for them. Some people are trying a method called reconation.

therapy, which teaches them moral responsibility and stuff. But it's still in my mind, I'm still cautious about that. But what is good for them often is going to jail or the threat of going to jail. And that's how you control their behavior.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Gotcha, wow. So if you're living with a person, we'll handle separating and divorce next, but if you're living with a person, it seems like this could be so defeating and deflating and almost becomes a total victim mentality that's ingrained in you. How should you handle that?

And can you grow past that while living with them?

Bill Eddy (:

I'd say the most important thing is getting support for yourself. So you have a support system. So you have people that like you as you are. So your self-esteem doesn't just depend on one person's opinion. Now this is if you're not trapped at home. So we have domestic violence situations where people are trapped at home and can't build a support system.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Right.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Right.

Bill Eddy (:

In either scenario, another big thing is your self-talk, what you tell yourself. And so important to say, you know, I'm a strong person, I'm a good person, and I don't deserve to be treated this way. You can at least tell yourself, there's a problem here and it's not me. I'm not doing something that deserves this kind of treatment. But what I find for a lot of

women especially, is getting a support system is often the first step to really realizing I don't have to put up with this behavior. And then of course, seeing, you know, can I get the person into counseling? Can that make a difference? Because if it does make a difference, that's great. But if the person won't go to counseling.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Right.

Bill Eddy (:

or the counseling just doesn't make a difference, you have to decide when is it worth your years waiting for change that may never come. And for many of these folks, the definition of a personality disorder is an enduring pattern of behavior. So if you're waiting for change and they have a personality disorder, it's a lot less likely you're gonna see any change happen.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Right.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

right.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

It seems like if you decide to separate or leave one of these people, that it's naturally more hostile, maybe more dangerous than the average person. What do you suggest for handling that process?

Bill Eddy (:

Yes, so part of it, you know, the biggest factor of people's future behavior is their past behavior. So if you're dealing with someone, say, who's been violent, there's a higher risk they're going to be violent when they get bad news. And so you may want to deliver that bad news in a therapist's office where there's someone to help talk about it.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Right.

Bill Eddy (:

And in some cases you may want to have your lawyer deliver that news in papers being served while you're in a safe place where your spouse doesn't know where it is. So I've had cases like that. So spouse gets safe and then sends a letter through the lawyer with court papers saying, I want a divorce. I'd like to try to do it amicably. This is my lawyer.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Absolutely.

Bill Eddy (:

You can talk to my lawyer. I encourage you to get a lawyer. And we could possibly even meet in mediation because you can mediate even in some domestic violence cases, not others, but some. So it has to be assessed. But to say, I want to try to make this amicable. I want you to have time with the kids. Because some of these situations, the woman leaves with the children and then contacts through the lawyer.

and says, when we can start having conversations, we can get back to you having regular time with the kids. But in some cases, it's going to be very dangerous when you separate is the most dangerous time with domestic violence perpetrators.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Yes.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Absolutely. So never ever leave without a safety plan and without consultation of domestic violence experts. I just harp on that all the time. I've heard horrendous numbers of women being murdered when they choose to leave an abuser without a safety plan.

Bill Eddy (:

Yeah, yeah. One thing I say in my book, Splitting, Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder, is I give a list of times of high risk because whenever there's what they take as they take things much more personally as a threat is when you say you want to separate, when you actually separate, when you go to court.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Mm-hmm.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Yes.

Bill Eddy (:

when you go to court and they lose time with the kids, or they have to pay some money or whatever, each of these. And the irony is, you know, the person's thinking, this will be a relief for me. Now it's gonna be over. But for the other person, especially if they have a personality disorder, they don't deal with losses very well.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Yeah.

Bill Eddy (:

And so what happens is that's when they're going to escalate the most. So you got to be prepared, like you said, safety plan, and really think through what's going to happen. What if I do this? What will the other person do?

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Right, and I think sometimes I've heard attorneys advise the client to stay living in the house with the spouse. And to me, that seems like it would be just incredibly damaging to their self-esteem, potentially dangerous, those kinds of things, if they're forced into living with these people after.

you said you want a divorce and after you've initiated it.

Bill Eddy (:

Yeah. So some people do that nonviolent cases. Um, I've done a lot of mediations where people stayed in the house together until the house sold. They know they're getting divorced. They may even have a divorce date that's come and gone before the house was sold and they're both there. The kids are there. And some people, you know what they call the good divorce, which is maybe 20 to 25% of divorces get along. Okay.

They can handle that. 75% to 80% of people can't do that and shouldn't try. And it's something that's just too hard to handle, and it's better to start having separate time and start having separate time with the kids, et cetera. But yeah, don't overdo it.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Right.

Bill Eddy (:

Don't take risks. And I'm really surprised at how people in some of the most high risk situations have the lowest understanding of the risk. So people really need to go, am I really being accurate here? Let me get some other opinions and get some consultation with a lawyer, therapist, other support person. Yeah.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

right.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Absolutely. So we've talked a little bit about the effect on the spouse. What about the children?

Bill Eddy (:

Well, it's hard for kids, these personalities, because they're not particularly stable. They often have hostility and unpredictability. There was a study done, a big study done in Norway of 900 kids whose parents had traits of personality disorders. And what they found is as young as five and six, they were already starting to have emotional difficulties.

related to that. And so it's the hostility and the unpredictability, particularly hard on kids. So you see their self-esteem below. You see them high, more fear, more anxiety, stomach aches, sleeplessness, all of that.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Wow.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Mm-hmm.

Bill Eddy (:

can happen for kids if their parents are going through high conflict wars. And that's one reason it's often easier for the kids after the parents separate. Cause if they were having a lot of fights, if there was violence going on, um, that when the parents aren't in the same home is a great relief for the kids. Um, so that's, that surprises a lot of people. They, Oh, aren't you sad your parents separated? It's like, no, I'm glad the fighting's

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Yes.

Bill Eddy (:

stopped. It's not every night. Yeah.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Yeah, some relief, absolutely.

So I think another thing that's important is to share what are some of the warning signs when you meet these people before you launch in a relationship with them. Kind of the warning signs. And I think what I've observed is some people move from one relationship to the next very quickly.

without learning what happened and what are the warning signs. So what would you suggest?

Bill Eddy (:

Well, first of all, is we suggest waiting at least a year to make a major commitment because you might not see any warning signs for six months or nine months. Usually by a year, you're going to see. So not getting married, having a child, buying a house together, waiting at least a year.

Now, some people say, well, my grandparents got married a week after they met and they've had a happy marriage for 50 years. I'll say, yeah, but today we seem to be seeing more high conflict personalities. So you have to be more careful. And people don't know people as well. You know, you used to grow up in a small neighborhood and everybody knew so-and-so and you go watch out for so-and-so. But specific warning signs.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

right.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Mm-hmm.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Right.

Bill Eddy (:

wide mood swings, all or nothing thinking, you know, people speaking in extremes. We actually, my colleague and I, Megan Hunter, and I wrote a book called Dating Radar. And we included some characteristics of each of these cluster B personality disorders. So watching out like preoccupation with blaming others.

It's everything somebody else's fault. They never say, you know, I shouldn't have done that or I regret, you know, I probably shouldn't have taken that job. You know, my boss is a jerk. Um, but I probably, I made the decision to take the job. So that's my part in this. And someday I may need to make a change. Uh, so they take some responsibility. So not taking responsibility and blaming others all or nothing thinking.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Right.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Mm-hmm.

Bill Eddy (:

unmanaged emotions, just blurting things out, and extreme behaviors. And then justifying them. So I had a legal assistant for a while who was dating, and she said on the second date with this guy, they're walking along and she said something, and he says, that's stupid, and he slaps her on the

What's that about? He says, Oh, that's nothing, you know, take it easy. You're overreacting. Well, she ended the relationship right there because that's a warning sign, but the quick excuses, so he quick had, Oh, don't worry about it. You're overreacting instead of, Oh my goodness, I'm sorry. I just, you know, I'll never do that again, but some people will say that and then do it again too. So.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Yeah, good for her.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Right.

Bill Eddy (:

It's kind of like a boundary violation. When you start seeing little boundaries be violated, is think this could get bigger. So things like that. Lying, finding out the person lied about something. If they lie about little things, will they lie about big things? So those are some of the warning signs. But just the characteristics that I've

You know, the belittling behavior of narcissists, the mood swings of borderline, the lying of antisocial, the extreme drama of histrionic personalities. Those are kind of the warning signs for those.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

I'll say we've heard a lot about love bombing. Is that something that you recognize as well?

Bill Eddy (:

Hahaha

Oh, yes. And what's interesting, I say these personalities have a sugar coating that when they first meet people, they're often super wonderful. And so, yeah, and dating, they're just like, oh, you know, I can't do enough for you. You're my knight in shining armor. You're my princess. Just all of these exaggerated, uh, loving things that aren't, are out of

portion. And someone said in the book we did, the Dating Radar book, we did like 300 people's, we got feedback, we did a survey online. And what some people said, and we really like this is don't look for a 10 on a scale of 1 to 10, look for an 8, you know, someone that's not perfect, that isn't just the best in the world that just totally sweeps you off your feet.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Mm-hmm.

Bill Eddy (:

someone that's realistic, someone who cares, but they make mistakes, someone who could admit they made mistakes, someone who isn't, yeah, someone who isn't the most charming person in the world. Sometimes they're not enthusiastic. So someone that's real, and that's like the eight on a scale of one to 10, not the 10.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Mm-hmm, that's a biggie.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Gotcha, oh great advice. So if there are three actionable tips that you could give the audience of how to deal with high conflict divorces, high conflict personalities, what would you suggest?

Bill Eddy (:

Well, there's two things that we always try to teach everybody for dealing with difficult people. And that's one is ear statements that show empathy, attention and respect, E-A-R. And so to calm down an upset person in the moment is try to find something you can say that shows empathy, attention or respect. So if you're dealing with a narcissist, they really like respect.

So say, look, I respect your relationship with our daughter. I'm going to support you having time with her. Let's work a schedule out and something that's reasonable here. So sprinkle your conversations with the word respect. That's real. Nothing exaggerated. Don't say more than you mean. So that's a statement in a difficult conversation.

We encourage, there's so much by email. We have a method called BIF. It's brief, informative, friendly, and firm. And we have a book for co-parents. It's BIF for co-parent communication. And we have about 30 examples in there of how to write on issues, doctor's appointments, school schedule change, activities, overnights, all these things, birthdays, et cetera, ways, things you can write.

for conversations, so BIF for co-parent communication. The third thing I would say is to be assertive, not aggressive, and not passive in the divorce process. That means you're going to keep providing information. You're not going to let things slide that shouldn't slide.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Right.

Bill Eddy (:

But you're also going to choose your battles and not fight every single thing. That may be some little things that there's no point in fighting. So, and that's a lot discussed in the splitting book is the assertive approach, rather than aggressive, where you try to destroy the other person or passive, where you let yourself be walked on.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Right.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Right, absolutely. Bill, you are just a fountain of information and I know my clients as well as many listeners will benefit so much from learning more. So how can our listeners find you?

Bill Eddy (:

That'd be my three tips.

Bill Eddy (:

Well, our website is highconflictinstitute.com. It's www.highconflictinstitute.com. And they can contact us. We have a lot of free articles. We have videos for a fee. We have books. A lot of people like our books.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Okay.

Bill Eddy (:

We also do consultations. I do a lot of consultation. Megan Hunter does a lot of consultation. And we teach, we have our parenting class, the New Ways for Families parenting class. It's 12 hours online, under 100 bucks. If they volunteer for it, if it's court ordered, I think it's 139, something like that. But it's 12.

12 sessions, so it's a really cost effective approach. So a lot of resources, highconflictinstitute.com.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Thank you so much for being my guest today. Your contribution to knowledge of these personality disorders, to high conflict divorce is just so valuable and you help so many people.

Bill Eddy (:

Well, thanks so much. I was really glad to be on with you, Beverly.

Her Empowered Divorce Coach (:

Thank you. And to the listeners, thank you so much for being with Bill and myself on this episode of Her Empowered Divorce. All of Bill's information will be available in the show notes and this and all our episodes can be found at herempoweredivorce.com on the podcast page or wherever you listen to podcasts. And you can also watch the video version on our YouTube channel, Her Empowered Divorce.

Please share our story with your friends so that we can reach out and help as many women as possible. Join me for our next episode where I'll be diving deeper into what other expert professionals can share to help you on your separation journey. Remember, you can find out more about how my coaching and empowerment work can help you eliminate the pain and overwhelm and create more knowledge and happiness at herempoweredivorce.com.

And if you're wondering how a divorce coach can help your unique situation, look for my free ebook, Why Use a Divorce Coach? And the link is in the show notes. Until next time, stay safe and stay empowered.

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