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Identity, Belonging, & The Privilege of Travel With Journalist Emy Rodriguez
Episode 101 • 11th October 2023 • Going Places • Yulia Denisyuk
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Join us for a thought-provoking conversation on privilege, travel, and finding a sense of belonging with our guest, Emy Rodriguez, a freelance travel journalist from Arecibo, Puerto Rico. A proud member of the LGBTQ+ community, Emy has dedicated himself to using his privilege as a travel writer to showcase and preserve underserved communities and their incomparable voices. His writing has appeared in Condé Nast Traveler, Fodors, and many more magazines. Emy currently lives in Barcelona, Spain, which is how we initially connected. 

In this episode, Emy shares his experiences as an immigrant in Barcelona, navigating the challenges and joys of living in a new country. He discusses the importance of dialogue, listening, and giving back while also expressing his delight in discovering a vibrant community and a sense of hope in his journey. 

This episode will inspire you to reflect on your own privilege, explore new perspectives, and embrace the power of community. Tune in to gain valuable insights from Emy's journey and discover the beauty of finding home wherever you are.

Get full show notes and more information at: https://travelmedialab.co/podcast/101

Want to know how to publish your travel stories? Download my free guide in which I share with you the 10 steps to take now to get your work out into the world.

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Travel Media Lab with Yulia Denisyuk is a podcast about people and places that make our world a fascinating place to be. Each week, we bring you stories from places near and far and sit down with the world’s most exciting travelers, journalists, creators, and people working in the travel space. Hosted by Yulia Denisyuk, an award-winning travel journalist, photographer, and writer working with National Geographic, The New York Times, BBC Travel, and more. 

Learn more about Travel Media Lab at travelmedialab.co.

Mentioned in this episode:

Visit Jordan

This episode and the rest of this season are brought to you by Visit Jordan. Jordan is a beautiful country in the Middle East that has something for everyone: in a relatively small area, it packs diverse landscapes like the Mediterranean forests of Ajloun, deep canyons in Wadi Dana, the Mars-like desert of Wadi Rum, and the Dead Sea, the lowest point on earth. Let Jordan be your host for your Middle Eastern adventures. Go to Visit Jordan to learn more.

Visit Jordan

Transcripts

ERF:

We can't change the fact that we could travel the world,

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:

but we could change how we travel

it and then how we give back.

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YD: Welcome back to our show, everyone.

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This is your host, Yulia Denysiuk,

an award winning travel photographer,

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writer, community builder,

storyteller, and entrepreneur.

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And today we're speaking to my

friend and dear colleague, Emy

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Rodriguez, a freelance travel

journalist from Arecibo, Puerto Rico.

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A proud member of the LGBTQ plus

community, Emy has dedicated himself to

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using his privilege as a travel writer

to showcase and preserve underserved

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:

communities and their incomparable voices.

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His writing has appeared in Conde Nast

Traveler, Foders and many more magazines.

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Emy currently lives in Barcelona, Spain,

which is how we originally connected.

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And he's set on becoming the first

Puerto Rican to wave a Puerto Rican

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flag underwater at the most remote

scuba diving location on earth.

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In this conversation, Emy and

I are going to have a really

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honest and vulnerable discussion.

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Thank you, Emy, for that, about how being

queer informed Emy's career of travel

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writing, the privilege of traveling for

leisure that I and him and so many other

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colleagues I know grapple with, searching

for belonging and community in Barcelona

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and what it felt like traveling through

the Middle East as a queer person.

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We'll also talk about how Amman, the

capital of Jordan, is so under the radar

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and what Emy thinks is the difference

between being an immigrant and an expat.

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I particularly loved that

part of the conversation.

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If you want to learn more about

Emy and his work, follow him

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on Instagram @emyrodriguez.

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And we'll also link to his

work and his Instagram account

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in the show notes as well.

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This episode and this entire season of the

show is brought to you by Visit Jordan.

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Be sure to visit myjordanjourney.

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com to learn more about this place.

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That's myjordanjourney.

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com.

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All right, now let's get started

with our conversation with

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travel journalist Emy Rodriguez.

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Emy, welcome to the show.

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I'm so excited to see you

again and to talk to you again.

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How are you, my friend?

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You know,

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ERF: I'm doing great.

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Thank you for inviting me.

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I'm super excited to be

here and to talk to you.

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it's been a while, so

I'm excited to catch up.

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YD: it's been a while, right?

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were talking just before hitting record

here that last we spoke, I was about

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to move to Barcelona, where you are.

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ERF: No, yeah, I was expecting you here.

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Like, I think we had, we were having

gaba, near the gothic area, the gothic

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quarter, and we were talking about it,

and I was half expecting you here within

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a couple months, but everything kind

of, like, worked out at the end, I feel,

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and what you're doing now is amazing.

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I think what, you know, going back

to school and focusing on video and

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focusing on different things, I think is

amazing, and I think that showcases to

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other writers that they just don't have

to be siloed off into one thing only.

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YD: I love that you said that actually,

because that's the evolution that I

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went through as well this year, you

know, like we said before recording

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that I was just so like focused on

I'm a writer, I'm a photographer.

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That's what I do.

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And that's all I do.

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But actually, I, yeah, I realized that

no, you could be so much more, right?

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I'm already a podcaster too.

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I'm already a teacher.

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I am video is something

that interests me right now.

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So yeah, I think that's a really cool

reminder everyone who is in the industry

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that like, Hey, you can, you can be

more than one thing and that's okay.

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You know?

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So I love that.

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Thank you.

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Hmm.

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ERF: No, that's something that I think

I've especially admired about you and

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Karthika Gupta, is that you guys really

diversify your ability to do stuff, um,

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which I feel like I've lacked in for a

little bit, but it's really fascinating

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how you go from editorial to photography

to teaching to, um, different things

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and now video and, you know, the

other ventures that you're going into.

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I think it's important to

keep that entreprenurial

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mindset, if that makes sense.

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because at the end of the

day, we are self employed.

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So if we don't push

ourselves, we don't get paid.

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And this is a capitalist world.

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So we're, we're essentially at

the mercy of our professions.

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But I think it's fascinating

how you're able to diversify

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and make yourself dynamic.

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I think that's something that

not the everyday person would be

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able or has a capability to do.

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So I admire that a lot.

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YD: Yeah, thank you.

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Thank you.

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You know who, do you know Lola Akinmake?

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She's also in the industry.

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She's Sweden based.

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photographer, writer, TEDx speaker, book

author, educator, all of those things.

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And she was on the podcast a couple

of seasons ago, and she brought this

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up, this idea of being a multi, multi

talented person, or being talented, or

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not even talented, but being interested

in and good at more than one thing.

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And I feel like sometimes people are

just like, well, no, you've, you know.

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If you're a writer, you're a writer.

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That's it.

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And I just, I really, that idea of, doing

more than one thing really appeals to me.

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So yeah, I like that.

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so speaking of writing your story for

Condé Nast Traveler, called Returning

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to My Hometown in Puerto Rico, Where

I Struggled to Come Out as a Teenager.

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It's just such a powerful story and we're

going to link to it in the show notes.

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So listeners, please go

ahead and check it out.

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a, it's a beautifully written story.

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I've actually resonated with it too, but

in a different way, because I resonated

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a lot with that theme of returning to

where you come from and not really finding

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your space in there anymore or seeing

the evolution of how far you've come

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after you've come back there, you know?

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And I really loved what you said

that the Arecibo, the town that

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you're from, made you who you are,

acceptable and glorious, even if you

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had to go elsewhere to realize it.

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I mean, that line, it just,

you know, it was so beautiful.

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So what do you love about the story?

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Yeah.

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ERF: story is my story, but I wanted to

reach out to other people that had similar

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stories or get connect to it or relate

to it in different ways, because I think

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the, feeling of not really truly belonging

in your town or where you grew up is

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something that a lot of people experience.

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In my case, it was me being

part of the queer community.

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and being in a place where that wasn't

really well known of, um, or accepted,

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frankly, but I think, me writing it, it

made me think of all my friends that,

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you know, have had similar stories

of either being in a place they're

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from, that's not accepting of who they

are, whatever it is, or being in a

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new place where they're not accepted.

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These universal stories of not feeling

right within those communities,

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I think I wanted to pick up on,

and I think I felt like I was.

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Writing for those people, because I,

you know, just within my own identity,

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I don't expect everyone to be a

Latino, queer, cisgender man from,

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you know, Florida and Puerto Rico,

and to have the same perspective.

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Like, I can't, it's virtually impossible.

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If I find someone like

that, that'll be amazing.

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But like, it's virtually impossible

for me to expect people to

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understand every little thing that

I've experienced, and vice versa.

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I can expect myself to

understand everything that

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everyone else has experienced.

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So my, my goal is to kind

of share something that is

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a little bit of commonality.

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So that way we can relate on.

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and then from there we

can build something.

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But I think that story in particular

was really, it was really interesting

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because I think going back to

the town, it made me realize.

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that I am a product of this.

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As much as I tried in my earlier time

to avoid, you know, that, that part

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of myself and to leave that and never

say that I was from Arecibo, Puerto

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Rico, I get, got to a place where

now I'm proud of being from there.

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I'm proud in two ways.

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One is very egotistical, and

then the other is kind of like

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this is a place that made me.

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The egotistical part is basically,

you know, I am this now.

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I am a journalist.

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I am a writer.

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I wrote a story for Cone Dash

Traveler about that place.

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I don't think there's many other people

doing that from that town or in that town,

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so it makes me feel extra special about

myself, and it makes me feel glorious

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in that sense, but I think also it, it

really made me, made me look at my, my

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history and why that, even though other

people might not find that special,

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it's special to me, and I value it.

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and it gives me the perspective

that no one else is going to

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have, and I appreciate that.

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And I, I try to put that into my writing

as much as possible, but yeah, that's

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one of my favorite stories that I wrote.

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I wrote it a few years ago, like two

years ago, a year and a half ago.

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and I want to continue, ever since

then, I've been continuing on the

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path of writing stories from a certain

perspective, from a, a certain idea.

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Like I wrote a piece about

anxiety and scuba diving,

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you know, just kind of like someone that

has had those things, because I feel like.

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stories are supposed to, articles

and stories are supposed to

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resonate with the reader.

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and if you don't do that, then

it's difficult to, to write a

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good story, if that makes sense.

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YD: Yeah, totally.

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I mean, maybe what I'm going to

say now is a bit controversial.

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I don't know.

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Let's see, we'll try, we'll test it.

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But like, there's so much fluff out there,

when it comes to the online world and

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what you can read on the Internet, let's

say, and on top of that, there is so many

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other things that are competing for our

attention that I feel like for something

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to garner someone's attention and for

them to actually read it, it has to be

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a story like that, that connects on a

deeper level, that there is some sort of

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a shared mindset or a shared, Experience

perhaps that you can like how I resonated

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right now with your story, you know,

because I recognize that feeling of coming

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back home and having that evolution.

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So yeah, I feel like, I personally

probably not gonna stop scrolling

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for A roundup of 10 best beaches to,

to see in Thailand, you know, like

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I'm, I'm just not, but I might, and

will probably stop scrolling when I

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see a title like that, like returning

to my hometown in Puerto Rico.

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You know what I mean?

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So.

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ERF: It's something that I feel, ever

since I've been a writer, ever since

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I started writing, I've always kind of

resonated more with, you know, those

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stories that had deeper meaning, that

were more profundo in in Spanish.

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YD: Yeah, I love that word.

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ERF: Yeah, more heavy.

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Because.

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There are, and there's more power

to the people that write about

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the 10 best beauties in Thailand.

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Like that's necessary.

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That's something that's an aspect of our

industry that we should empower as well.

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But I think in my case, I like writing

something that has, a different angle.

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And there's, there's space for both,

but I think now specifically now

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within our modern time with AI kind

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YD: I was just gonna say that.

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ERF: my, my whole like essay format

is a little bit of a survival thing

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as well, just because I feel like

those stories about the 10 best

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beaches in Thailand are now written

by a computer or a computer program.

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And I have to write stories that are

about my experience or my perspective

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because AI can never do that.

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So it's been, it's been a little

bit of a survival, like, shift,

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if that makes sense, just so that

way I get paid, even though it's

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not a lot, but I still get paid.

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YD: Yeah.

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feel like that too.

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And, What I think about right now is that

this is actually where our value I think

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comes in as freelance contributors to

publications that we get to write a story

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or tell a story that's honestly, no one

else can, AI can't because AI doesn't have

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our experience or our perspective, right?

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Exactly to your point.

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That's, that's a really wonderful point.

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And of course, I, I, didn't mean

to like offend anyone who writes

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roundups, you guys, you know,

it's a great piece and format.

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It's just that, we are

competing for attention.

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We are competing for, you know,

readership and all of that.

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So that's what I tend to resonate with

is those kind of profundo stories.

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but yeah.

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ERF: it's something that, it goes back

to the point of, like, diversifying what

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you're able to provide, the storytelling

aspect that you mentioned earlier.

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and it's not just a modern thing,

it's something that has been existing

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since the beginning of time, it is.

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How do we continue thriving?

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How do we continue being successful?

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Quote, unquote, and we have to evolve.

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We have to change.

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We have to really become

better and better and better.

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And my example is AI with my writing

and the listicles and you know,

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the blog like post and kind of

going more into an essay format.

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But yours is going to storytelling

and video and talk where you're

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really a photographer, but

like going on on and on and on.

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So it's like creating those things

of, of evolution, I think are

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super essential in this industry

and the creative industry overall.

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Because if not, if you get stuck just

being a writer, which I currently am now,

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or a photographer, it changes, it evolves,

and we should have learned this when

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influencing became a thing but we didn't.

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so we have to really kind of pay

attention to like what's going on

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there, what's going on in the world,

and respond to it because if we stay

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put, we're gonna get left behind.

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YD: Yeah.

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Have you played around

with the ChatGPT yet?

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ERF: I have, yeah.

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I mean, it's scary.

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It's really scary because, Grammarly,

which I use for editing, Grammarly has

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its own chat GPT AI generator, and I put

in things like, write me a story about

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Thailand, and it'll write an entire story

about Thailand, like if someone else wrote

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it, and that for me is super frightening.

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but I think if it's utilized

in the most In a positive way.

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For example, pitching for

us is really annoying.

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and it takes up like 80

percent of our, our workforce.

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If you put in things like, here's

a pitch idea, format it for

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me, it'll do it automatically.

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That saves us time.

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It helps us utilize in a different way.

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And I think, if we utilize it, Okay.

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In a positive way can be very

beneficial to to storytellers.

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but if it's not utilized in a positive

way and it kind of takes over or

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overwhelms us then I don't know at that

point We have to do something different.

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YD: You are not the first person who

told me in the industry that, who told me

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that they use chat GPT to write pitches.

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That's really interesting

because for me, actually.

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I love writing pitches.

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well, so, because the way I do it is

like, I use, This is my breadcrumb for

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the story, basically, you know, so it's

a pitch is like the intro paragraph

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is often is how I write a pitch.

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So that later on 10 months later

when somebody comes back to me

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and they're like, Hey, we want the

story, you know, I can remember

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what the hell I was talking about.

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but, yeah, that's, that's really

interesting that you're saying

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that because I've definitely

heard other writers uh, use

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chat GPT for pitch writing.

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So that's really cool.

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I was wondering, how do you think,

coming from the, uh, LGBTQ plus

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community, helped you or prepared you

to be a writer in the travel space.

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Because I feel like you just have such

an interesting perspective on the world.

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I feel like as, especially as

travel writers, for sure, who

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are, often entering communities or

entering places for the first time.

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We need to be so good at, not making

judgments and not making assumptions.

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And some are better at this than others.

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But, I don't know.

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What are your thoughts on this?

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Like, how do you think that

has helped you in this process?

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ERF: It's helped me,

know boundaries, I think.

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for example, me going to the Middle East.

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It's helped me kind of understand

that people are different

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than me and not to judge them.

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And not to rationalize their

existence in my own head.

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I think for me it's, helped me in

the sense of just understanding that

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everyone is different and everyone

has different values and different

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perspectives and different views

on rights and views on equality.

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And it's not my place to go

into your living room and tell

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you how to live your life.

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I mean, I may not agree with it

sometimes, but that doesn't give me the

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right to, to pipe up and say your life

is wrong because that's not my place.

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As a storyteller, my job is to observe.

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My job is to take notes.

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My job is to document, and

storytell those, findings.

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and I think in our industry,

there's a lack of that.

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I feel like in our industry,

there's a lot of bias.

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And that's great, I think that's fine,

but I think we need to just be a little

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bit more empathetic towards each other.

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I wrote a piece for, about me traveling

the Middle East as a queer man.

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And how, what my experience was.

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And I end the piece with basically

saying, I, as myself, as a writer, as

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a person, needed to stop judging the

Middle East without really knowing

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what's going on, and focus more on

how I could help, and think about the

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people, the queer people that are there.

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So I list out, like, different

queer organizations in Lebanon, and

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I say, this is how you could help.

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Instead of casting

judgment, I'd rather help.

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and that goes also with my, my perception

of how people understand my existence.

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Again, I don't expect people to

understand, you know, where I come

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from or how I operate my life.

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So instead of shouting at you, instead

of like shoving it down your throat,

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I'll give you the tools to understand.

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You take them and use them if you want to.

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If you don't, more power to

you, you know, and that's it.

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So I think in my writing, I try to lead

by that example because we're in a very,

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very aggressive world right now, either

it be politically, it could be, socially,

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it could be on so many different levels.

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And I come from the perspective, I

try to come from the perspective of,

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you know, peace and understanding.

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You know, I try to have that

because I hate arguing generally,

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but like, you know, I can't

expect everyone to understand me.

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I can't expect to understand everyone

else, but I have the ability to try.

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and I hope other people

have that ability as well.

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And I hope to inspire

other people to do as well.

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I think it comes from my upbringing

within my own family of them not being

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as supportive towards my identity.

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and until this day, I don't have a

relationship with them or as a strong

336

:

relationship with them, just because

they don't view my identity as real.

337

:

They view it more as a choice.

338

:

And that's fine, but I've gotten

past the point of trying to show them

339

:

the way, and I just operate and live

my life in the way that I view it,

340

:

and I've used those skills that I

learned, those tools that I learned.

341

:

within my family and my upbringing,

to survive, and to, tell stories in a

342

:

way that you're not offending anyone.

343

:

because I don't think that's my job.

344

:

My job is to write and to document things.

345

:

My job isn't to offend

unless I'm doing an OpEd.

346

:

you know, I think my job is a writer.

347

:

I'm not a reviewer or I don't critique.

348

:

There's a very big difference

between those things.

349

:

YD: You're like a vessel is

sometimes how I think about it.

350

:

You're the vessel for the story.

351

:

You're not the story.

352

:

So you're not like, like you said,

unless it's an op ed, you're not.

353

:

Putting your own personal,

color on it, right?

354

:

you're reporting it as it

is, not as you want it to be.

355

:

ERF: So it's similar to that,

but I think, I am putting myself

356

:

in a lot of my stories, kind of

showcasing how I perceive things.

357

:

Um, like the Conde Nast Traveler story

about me returning back to Puerto Rico.

358

:

and then also some other stories, like me

traveling, the Middle East as a queer man.

359

:

I am putting it from my perspective,

but it's never, it's never to the

360

:

point of saying, um, this is wrong.

361

:

YD: I see.

362

:

ERF: It's more of like, this

is how this made me feel.

363

:

This is how I reacted to it.

364

:

and then this is where I went.

365

:

So I think it's a very...

366

:

it's different because it's like an

old journalistic, like, sort of thing,

367

:

but then on the same token, I'm I'm 100

percent including myself into the story.

368

:

but I'm respecting it in a certain

way where it's not offensive.

369

:

I don't really know how to describe

it, but it's not, It's taking over

370

:

the story, but it's not, taking

over your perspective of the story.

371

:

YD: You guys should

also read this article.

372

:

We're going to link to it as well.

373

:

I believe it was for AFAR Magazine

where you wrote about this and, In that

374

:

piece, you talk about your experience of

traveling to the Middle East, and wanted

375

:

to ask you, like, there are so many

misconceptions also about the region, and

376

:

I specifically loved reading, you said

in your piece that Amman, in Jordan, my

377

:

favorite place in the region for sure,

it felt more progressive, like it was

378

:

inviting me to stay, relax, and learn.

379

:

about their language,

their art and their food.

380

:

So tell me more about this

experience you had in Amman.

381

:

And I was so happy to read that

because honestly, I feel like

382

:

Amman often gets overlooked.

383

:

in Jordan, you know, people don't

really spend that much time there.

384

:

They don't really like, you know, they

go to Petra and all these other places,

385

:

but I was just so happy to read that.

386

:

So tell me what made you feel

that way when you were there.

387

:

ERF: I think, for me going there,

you're right, it gets overshadowed

388

:

by Petra and Wadi Rum or something.

389

:

But for me going there, I was really,

I had no, no idea what it was.

390

:

you know, obviously our perceptions

as Westerners towards the Middle

391

:

East or towards Asia is very

skewed, um, or very biased.

392

:

so I tried to be as non,

not, have any assumptions.

393

:

but when I got there, I

was so amazed by the city.

394

:

I think it reminded me

so much of New York.

395

:

I remember taking a tour of one

of the neighborhoods and I'm

396

:

like, this could be New York.

397

:

This could be Chicago.

398

:

This could be certain

parts of like LA or Miami.

399

:

And I mean that with a sense of like

really cool coffee shops and, you know,

400

:

like graffiti art, art installations

everywhere and graffiti and, you

401

:

know, tags and things like that.

402

:

And I was so impressed by it that I

honestly felt that I could hang here.

403

:

Me, with my own identity,

with my own self, I could hang

404

:

here and have a good time.

405

:

and then I didn't really participate in

the, the nightlife scene, but I heard

406

:

the nightlife scene is really active.

407

:

And I was just impressed, and I

was just like, this is a cool city.

408

:

And Jordan isn't just Petra.

409

:

Petra's a big part of it,

yes, but there's so much more.

410

:

And I use that frame for every

Middle Eastern city, for every

411

:

city that's in that part of Asia.

412

:

Because there's so much more.

413

:

I think our perspective as Westerners,

we, we kind of, specifically my

414

:

own, I'm a millennial, so I grew up

during, 9 11, I grew up during, you

415

:

know, a whole bunch of other things.

416

:

So, my idea of the Middle East

for a long time was and then

417

:

going there for the first time, my

first country was Doha in Qatar.

418

:

Going there for the first time, I

was so impressed, I was so amazed.

419

:

Not only because of the

progressiveness of it.

420

:

It's not progressive in the sense

of like, there's a Starbucks.

421

:

It's more progressive in the sense

that simple things like seeing the,

422

:

the older buildings that had, I forgot

the exact thing of this, but they

423

:

had a way of, like, insulating it, to

create A C because it gets hot, it's

424

:

a desert, so like, a lot of places

are deserts, so it gets really hot.

425

:

For me, seeing that made me think

of how progressive it is because

426

:

those little things, just kind of

showcased to me that It's not huts in

427

:

the middle of nowhere, there's more.

428

:

and then seeing the creative side,

seeing the art, seeing the fashion,

429

:

seeing even the practice of Islam, I

think for me was really fascinating.

430

:

Coming from a non religious perspective,

I was entranced by the call to prayers.

431

:

I didn't understand anything that was

going on, but, or hearing it, like five

432

:

times a day, but I was like amazed by it.

433

:

Like, I could not stop listening to it.

434

:

I had to stop in the street

whenever I heard it and just

435

:

listen because it was beautiful.

436

:

It was frankly beautiful.

437

:

I looked it up later, but, you know, I

didn't understand what was going on, and

438

:

it really moved me in a certain way, and I

think for me, again, from a non religious

439

:

perspective, I think I had a spiritual

moment during that time, and it wasn't

440

:

tied to Islam or Christianity or Judaism.

441

:

It wasn't tied to anything.

442

:

It was just tied to my own spirituality

with the sun, you know, and I had a

443

:

moment, and for me, just being in an

environment like that, in, Amman, where

444

:

you have that historical, religious

side or spiritual side, and then you

445

:

have, like, amazing murals everywhere,

cafes, traffic, people yelling on the

446

:

street, like, like, that, I was so

amazed by everything, like, that for me

447

:

was, like, It's kind of like a really

great moment and it showcased that,

448

:

you know, my perceptions were wrong.

449

:

and I wanted to like kind of showcase

that in the article that I wrote.

450

:

I don't know if I did a good job at it,

but it's something that I would go back

451

:

to Amman like right away because I think

there's so much there, you know, and

452

:

any other city that's in that region.

453

:

I feel like there's like Lebanon has

been on my list for quite some time

454

:

now, but, you know, those cities

just, there's so much like cool stuff.

455

:

and you know, I, I definitely want

to go back, but I think people will

456

:

be surprised if they just step out

of the Petra and the Wadi Rum thing.

457

:

If they just stay a few days in Amman

and just like check out the art scene

458

:

or check out the cafe scene, the coffee

scene, or check out, the nightlife scene.

459

:

I think they're going to be

really impressed and I hope that,

460

:

people do it a lot more because I

think it's a pretty awesome city.

461

:

YD: Oh, my goodness.

462

:

so many things I want to

say, to what you just said.

463

:

First of all, can we go to Amman

together like ASAP, like this

464

:

weekend, maybe let's do that.

465

:

Let's do a trip because everything that

you're saying about Amman, this is what

466

:

I've been also saying for the longest

time now, whenever I have the opportunity,

467

:

because I absolutely feel the same way.

468

:

You know, I feel like the

city doesn't get its due.

469

:

It's one of the most vibrant cities

in the Middle East, but for whatever

470

:

reason, it's just so under the radar,

like completely under the radar, but

471

:

the creative scene there is incredible.

472

:

And in fact, We have

an episode this season.

473

:

that's going to reveal some of

that creative scene in Amman.

474

:

So definitely check that out if you're

listening and if you want to know more.

475

:

But the other thing I wanted

to mention is that I resonate.

476

:

So this is, see, this

is why we're friends.

477

:

And this is why I was excited to move

to Barcelona and be your neighbor,

478

:

because like we, I feel like we

connect, on a really good level,

479

:

but like what you were saying about

spirituality and how the quotes of

480

:

prayer that are done, how it moves you.

481

:

Emy, this has been my

experience since day one.

482

:

Like, I'm not religious.

483

:

I'm spiritual.

484

:

I'm not religious.

485

:

Every time I hear that

adhan, it moves me so much.

486

:

And I, I don't know, my eyes well up and

I always take a moment and I miss it.

487

:

I'm not afraid to say that

I'm actually, I miss it.

488

:

We're like, that's one of my

favorite things about Istanbul,

489

:

for example, is to hear that adhan

everywhere in Jordan as well.

490

:

And I've been researching too.

491

:

I've been reading up on it is that the

Adhan actually lowers your pressure.

492

:

It's specifically on that specific

frequency in which they sing it.

493

:

It's the frequency that

lowers our blood pressure.

494

:

ERF: That's super fascinating.

495

:

Yeah,

496

:

YD: here's what else I want to say.

497

:

How interesting is the human experience?

498

:

Because for you and I, like, we

don't have, let's say, Maybe it's

499

:

safe to say that we don't have any

preconceived notions about what

500

:

Islam is, or we try to be aware, or

like come at it with an open mind.

501

:

when we hear the call to

prayer, we find it beautiful.

502

:

But I want to tell you a short,

really fast story about a friend

503

:

of mine who lives in Jordan.

504

:

who is from Jordan and who has a

completely different relationship

505

:

with the adhan because for them

adhan a religion that is in a

506

:

lot of way restricting them.

507

:

And so every time they hear the

Adhan, they want to close the

508

:

window, and every time I hear

Adhan, I want to open the window.

509

:

And so, to me, it's just such an

interesting example of how subjective,

510

:

honestly, every single experience is,

because we all, come to everything with

511

:

our life, our ideas, our thoughts, what

happened to us, you know, and I think

512

:

that goes back to what we were saying

about earlier about travel journalism

513

:

and how we come to it is like, I think

even that like awareness of that is

514

:

a great step towards being a great

storyteller in this space because

515

:

you're like, oh my god, like everything

I do influences how I process it and

516

:

so, so with everyone else around me.

517

:

ERF: That's a very good point because

I feel like me being a queer traveler

518

:

in Jordan, hearing the adhan is a very

different experience of someone being

519

:

a queer person in Amman, hearing it.

520

:

and there is nothing I

could do to change that.

521

:

There is nothing I could do to change

the perspectives or change the existence.

522

:

But what I can do is be aware, because

that changes how I navigate the world.

523

:

And it makes me, at the end of

the day, when you're aware, you

524

:

appreciate things on a different level.

525

:

And you are more, in my opinion,

more open to different things.

526

:

and I, I value that a lot.

527

:

Because I feel like, I don't

know, it's just, it's, I was

528

:

a traveler during that period.

529

:

I was a tourist.

530

:

So if I would have grown up there

and been who I am, I probably

531

:

would not be super happy, you know?

532

:

Like, I probably would not, would

not be having a spiritual moment

533

:

in the middle of the street.

534

:

Like, I probably would be in a

different, like, sort of scenario.

535

:

and I need to understand that, and I

need to be aware of that, and appreciate

536

:

that and understand my privilege.

537

:

Understand where I come from,

and how I come from a different

538

:

perspective, and a different privilege.

539

:

so it's important.

540

:

I think every traveler, not even if you're

just, not even if you're a writer or if

541

:

you're a journalist or a storyteller, you

need to understand that when you go to

542

:

a different place, it's very different

from the people that are living there.

543

:

You're on vacation.

544

:

You're traveling.

545

:

Your existence there is temporary.

546

:

Their existence is permanent.

547

:

How does that differ?

548

:

so I think that's a question that I

think everyone should ask themselves.

549

:

Like, next time they go to the Caribbean,

next time they go to Miami even, or

550

:

next time they go anywhere else, think

of like what your existence, how that

551

:

impacts the people that are living there.

552

:

But then also think of your, of

their existence once you're gone.

553

:

And I think for a lot of travelers,

that would really make them

554

:

kind of like cognizant of little

things like buying tchotchkes,

555

:

you know, eating at restaurants.

556

:

You know, doing this or that, they would

actually understand that it's different

557

:

on the difference on the other side.

558

:

and if I ever have children, I think

that's the biggest thing that I want

559

:

to show them is that the world is

different and we need to appreciate it.

560

:

and we need to value it.

561

:

And we also need to

know how to navigate it.

562

:

Not everything is a vacation.

563

:

Not everything is a Marriott.

564

:

No offense to Marriott.

565

:

I love But, you know, like, not

everything is a Disney World, you know?

566

:

and we need to understand that.

567

:

A friend of mine, actually, from Chicago,

Wendy, she took her kids to India and to

568

:

different countries, around the world.

569

:

And, her kids are,

teenagers at this point.

570

:

But I thought that was really special

because she herself is a travel writer, so

571

:

she already has that sort of like ability.

572

:

Her children don't, and by teaching

them at a young age that the

573

:

world is different, hopefully,

like, knock on wood, it shows them

574

:

that they should be appreciative.

575

:

They should be appreciative of what

they have and also what other people

576

:

have or don't have, and understand that.

577

:

I went to Thailand.

578

:

My first, like, international

trip, as a travel journalist

579

:

was to Thailand and Phuket.

580

:

And we went to, like, a Muslim

village, somewhere on the island.

581

:

I don't remember exactly where.

582

:

And I remember being around the

village and everyone was looking at

583

:

us because we all looked different.

584

:

we all looked like, you

know, just not from there.

585

:

We were all, it was obvious

that we weren't from there.

586

:

and I remember just like looking

at them and thinking they're happy.

587

:

This is their life.

588

:

Their life is very different from my life.

589

:

I was living in Miami at the time.

590

:

It's very different, but they were happy.

591

:

And that shifted my perception

of being successful.

592

:

That shifted my perception

of material things.

593

:

That shifted my perception of

being a traveler, because my

594

:

butt loves central AC, you know?

595

:

Uh, and things like that.

596

:

Meanwhile, other people had other

ways of like, cooling themselves.

597

:

And by seeing that, or by being exposed to

that, it made me rethink my relationship

598

:

with what I have, or what I don't have.

599

:

And I think I've evolved since then.

600

:

I think I've definitely gotten to a

point where, I do things differently.

601

:

And it's only because of travel.

602

:

It's only because of those experiences.

603

:

And I hope other people have

those, those sort of experiences.

604

:

Because I think at the end of

the day, those people, that

605

:

Muslim village in Phuket, there's

nothing wrong with their lives.

606

:

They're living their best lives and

they're happy and they're great.

607

:

And they look happy.

608

:

So who am I to judge them and

say, Oh, they don't have this.

609

:

They don't have a McDonald's.

610

:

They don't have this.

611

:

Like, so many things.

612

:

And I, I aspire to that.

613

:

I, I look up to that.

614

:

because they're happy.

615

:

And in Miami, I was not happy.

616

:

you know, it's like,

for me, who is winning?

617

:

and that's a big question.

618

:

I think everyone should ask themselves

when they're traveling to a place

619

:

that's different from their home.

620

:

Is, are you really winning just because

you're coming from a place that has,

621

:

I don't know, like a, a smart car?

622

:

Like, random example, like is that

really, the ultimate version of success?

623

:

the ultimate version of

being a happy person?

624

:

In my opinion, no, that's

different for everyone.

625

:

But, for me, no, and I think

I learned that through travel.

626

:

YD: Man, there's so many themes

that you're raising up there.

627

:

you know, have the same aspiration as you

that if I ever have children, I want to

628

:

give them the best education there is,

which is to see as many places around the

629

:

world as possible as young as possible,

because, you know, I believe that that

630

:

just raises better Citizens of the world.

631

:

There's this thought that I actually

recently had, and I didn't come to any

632

:

resolution or any conclusion with that

thought, and it's not a groundbreaking

633

:

thought by any means, and other people

have come to that as well, but it came

634

:

back to me recently that you talked

about this idea of privilege, And if

635

:

we look at globally, at people who move

around the world, move through the world,

636

:

not for escaping something horrible in

their countries, but because they can.

637

:

It is such a small and

privileged group of people.

638

:

Because on a global scale,

most of the people are not able

639

:

to do that around the world.

640

:

And the thought that I had was,

how do I rectify that with my

641

:

desire to travel, for example?

642

:

Or with my urge to move through the world

and to explore and to see and to connect?

643

:

You know what I'm talking about?

644

:

Like, I don't have an answer

to that or a conclusion, but I

645

:

think about it a lot, you know?

646

:

ERF: I know exactly what you're

talking about and I don't

647

:

think there is an easy answer.

648

:

I think, I'll give you my

example of moving to Spain.

649

:

I don't view myself as an expat.

650

:

I view myself as an immigrant.

651

:

And I like to move in those circles

because I feel like the expat

652

:

experience is a very privileged one.

653

:

and, but I still kind of like am aligned

in that way because I'm American.

654

:

Um, and my income is different.

655

:

YD: It's like you're towing all

these different circles, right?

656

:

You're like one leg in this and one

657

:

ERF: yeah.

658

:

YD: this.

659

:

It's, yeah.

660

:

ERF: And I don't think there's an easy

answer because, you know, there isn't.

661

:

You're, you're navigating the world

in a different way because you can.

662

:

the only thing that I can say is to just

give back, to use your privilege for good.

663

:

so if you do find an opportunity that

you can give back, or you can write in

664

:

our case, or, you know, be a photographer

or a videographer, and you're able

665

:

to give back in that way, give back.

666

:

because we can't do anything else.

667

:

we can't change the fact that we could

travel the world, but we could change how

668

:

we travel it and then how we give back.

669

:

and it's important, because if not,

then we're just like everyone else

670

:

that calls themselves an expat.

671

:

and that for me has a negative

connotation, and I don't associate myself

672

:

with expats, because I feel like that

experience is, it's very inauthentic, and

673

:

you're doing something, you're not really

immersed in yourself and in a destination,

674

:

and you're not really understanding your

privilege of moving to a place where

675

:

some people have to take refuge in, or

some people can't, like you mentioned.

676

:

it's, it's a very different experience

and people need to understand that.

677

:

And I hope that, you know, with modern

times, people are understanding that,

678

:

to move, to financially, emotionally,

to shift in that way is a privilege,

679

:

because for a lot of people it isn't.

680

:

so I think people hopefully

should come to that understanding.

681

:

Not to say that I, I think everyone

should understand this because if

682

:

you're moving from like, wherever to

wherever, you know, like, it's okay.

683

:

But like, I don't know.

684

:

I just think that you

have to move with grace.

685

:

and yeah, I think that, that

entails a lot, but yeah.

686

:

YD: Emy, are you a writer or something?

687

:

You're so good with words.

688

:

ERF: No, no, no.

689

:

YD: No, but some of the things you've

said today, they're just like, really,

690

:

we have this expression, like a balm,

balm, B A L M, balm for the soul.

691

:

You know, they, they like sued me,

like, what you said about giving back,

692

:

what you said about moving through the

world with grace, you know, or even

693

:

what you said earlier, that phrase of.

694

:

You know, the Arecibo made you

glorious, like that is just so

695

:

beautiful and, I don't know.

696

:

Sometimes I feel like we are preaching

to the choir with these conversations

697

:

because it's like, yes, we, and I

would want to believe that everyone

698

:

who's listening to the podcast is

feeling the same way that, we hopefully

699

:

are more aware of all these issues.

700

:

But then when I look out

into the world, I see.

701

:

a lot of rhetorics that are

completely in the opposite direction.

702

:

And my thought is then, well,

how do we start that dialogue?

703

:

Because that's the dialogue that

needs to happen most urgently.

704

:

ERF: yeah.

705

:

I think, I had a recent experience where

I was discussing sexual assault within

706

:

the queer community, um, with a friend.

707

:

I was having a phone call and somehow

it shifted over to that conversation.

708

:

he mentioned something that happened

to a friend of his or that almost

709

:

happened to a friend of his.

710

:

And then that turned into a two

hour long conversation about sexual

711

:

assault in the queer community.

712

:

And the end result, him having a

very different perspective than

713

:

I had, which is completely fine.

714

:

But at least we had that conversation.

715

:

At least we had that rhetoric.

716

:

Because it wasn't, it wasn't aggressive.

717

:

It wasn't, you don't understand me, I

don't understand you, and that's it.

718

:

It was more of just

saying opposing opinions.

719

:

and I think he kind of, I understood

him differently, and he understood

720

:

me differently, which was good.

721

:

but I think it's just having those

simple conversations, you know,

722

:

sometimes I, I hate small talk.

723

:

Like, that's one thing that

it's always been about me.

724

:

It's a small talk is like, small

talk is, kind of like the bane of

725

:

my existence, but also, you know,

when these deep conversations come

726

:

around, I can't control myself.

727

:

like within five minutes of

meeting someone, I'm having

728

:

like a deep existential crisis

about the human condition.

729

:

Like, but I value that.

730

:

I like that because that's important.

731

:

Some people don't operate that way,

and that's completely fine, but

732

:

I think if we have more of those

conversations, I think it's important.

733

:

and, you know, it could just be a

simple phone conversation, or it could

734

:

be, I don't know, a podcast like this,

or it could be a video that you're

735

:

creating, or a piece that I'm writing.

736

:

there could be so many ways of

invoking conversation, that are non

737

:

aggressive, that are non violent,

that are, that are just sitting

738

:

down and listening, and speaking.

739

:

I think we don't do that

as much in the world now.

740

:

We don't listen.

741

:

and I think in conversation,

I always find it useful to

742

:

speak, but then also to listen.

743

:

it's a 50 50 sort of

arrangement in my head.

744

:

and sort of respond.

745

:

I think it's super important

to what the person said.

746

:

because sometimes we pretend we're

listening, but it's not active listening.

747

:

I think it's important to like

really just like take in what

748

:

the person is saying and kind of

arrange your response towards that.

749

:

and then I think that showcases to

people that you are interested, that

750

:

you are showing a sense of kindness

by giving them acknowledgement.

751

:

and I think that's important

and I think there's of that a

752

:

lot in certain like climates.

753

:

but yeah.

754

:

YD: Maybe something for me to think about,

about who to invite next on the podcast.

755

:

So, so we can have some

of these conversations.

756

:

That's, that's really interesting.

757

:

So it seems to me that this idea

of belonging, identity, and home.

758

:

Or looking for a home or perhaps

building a home or creating a home

759

:

where you are is important to you

both, in your work, but also in some of

760

:

the personal conversations we've had.

761

:

And you've mentioned, you know,

that you've I moved to Barcelona

762

:

recently, and that's how we

connected in the first place.

763

:

Shout out to Kartika, who connected us.

764

:

So, you know, it sounds

fabulous, Barcelona.

765

:

And by the way, I, like we already

mentioned, I was going to be there

766

:

too, but my plan has changed.

767

:

it sounds fabulous, but I'm sure

it has had its difficulties too.

768

:

And you've kind of touched upon

this a little bit with your

769

:

example of being in the immigrant

space rather than an expat space.

770

:

So...

771

:

Tell me, what were some of

the challenges that you've

772

:

experienced while moving there?

773

:

ERF: There's been a lot.

774

:

I think, for me as a brown man, it's

been a very different experience,

775

:

towards, against someone that is

like an expat, an American expat.

776

:

And I think for me, I've

been challenged in that way.

777

:

in the beginning, I felt like there

was two different versions of myself.

778

:

There was a American Emy that

spoke English like a suburban

779

:

kid or suburban person.

780

:

Or there is Emy who habla como un

puertorriqueño, you know, like habla

781

:

like speaks like a Puerto Rican person.

782

:

those two people were having

very different experiences

783

:

in Spain, in Barcelona.

784

:

And

785

:

I think it speaks to the

immigrant experience a little bit.

786

:

and how I had the privilege to

code switch, and be American

787

:

and have that safe space.

788

:

but I think that, that was a

big part of it, and I think not

789

:

really being adjusted to that.

790

:

I think in every environment that

I've lived in, there's always been

791

:

a healthy amount of diversity.

792

:

There's always been a healthy

amount of just different people.

793

:

I'm a different person, you know,

just like cultures, ethnicities,

794

:

lifestyles, everything.

795

:

Like literally always been a,

a rainbow of different things.

796

:

and moving here, it's been very different.

797

:

and I had to adjust to that.

798

:

and also to understand other people

and to not come across as like an

799

:

obnoxious, like, semi American person.

800

:

YD: yeah.

801

:

Yeah.

802

:

ERF: and, I had to shift my perception

a little bit and I had to shift

803

:

kind of how I navigated Barcelona.

804

:

Simple things, very simple things.

805

:

I'll give you an example

of discussing, salaries.

806

:

YD: mm

807

:

ERF: something that we talk

about freely is how much we

808

:

make and how much we don't make.

809

:

And how much we could afford, how

much our rent is, you know, or

810

:

our mortgage is or whatever it is.

811

:

in this part of Spain, it's a very

different, culture towards that.

812

:

And in the beginning I was

saying, oh yeah, I made this much

813

:

when I was working full time.

814

:

And I made, I'm making this much for

this project and I'm making this.

815

:

people were kind of like, that's not cool.

816

:

YD: Wow.

817

:

ERF: yeah, people weren't really

receptive towards it because...

818

:

In this case, the incomes are

lower and you just culturally

819

:

don't talk about stuff like that.

820

:

So I was coming across very offensively

just by discussing those things.

821

:

And it wasn't like I was like showing,

I, I hope I wasn't, but it wasn't

822

:

like I was like showing off by saying

I was getting this much for this.

823

:

It was more of just like sharing, you

know, like, oh yeah, I was working on

824

:

this travel projects and I made tk, TK

where I made this amount of money, and I

825

:

kind of like sharing it in conversation.

826

:

for them, it's very different for,

for Catalonians, for Spaniards,

827

:

it's very different and I had

to learn to adjust to that.

828

:

So now whenever I do have those

conversations about money, I keep it to

829

:

myself or I talk to my American friends.

830

:

YD: Yeah, I mean, I can re I can

relate to that too, honestly.

831

:

Like that's, that experience.

832

:

what do you like about living there?

833

:

ERF: I like just the vibe.

834

:

YD: Hmm

835

:

ERF: You know, one thing that I've

been saying since I moved here is

836

:

that in my neighborhood in Gracia,

there's a lot of like open air plazas.

837

:

where there's restaurants and

there's bars and things like that.

838

:

And people spend literally all

day there drinking wine and beer

839

:

and smoking cigarettes from 10 a.

840

:

m.

841

:

to like 9 p.

842

:

m.

843

:

And they're not drunk.

844

:

They're not like crazy or

doing anything obscenely.

845

:

Their kids are playing in the background

with pigeons or other little kids.

846

:

Like It's a perfect environment

in my head, and I love that.

847

:

Like, I love that laid back, sort of

nonchalant, just view on the world.

848

:

And it's the perfect environment

where I would want to raise a family.

849

:

it's not, you know, stigmatizing alcohol.

850

:

It's not stigmatizing smoking cigarettes.

851

:

It's what it is.

852

:

And if I ever have a child, that's,

it's going to be in this environment.

853

:

Because the way the,

I mean, the way the U.

854

:

S.

855

:

is going anyways, like, there's a few

problems with that that I won't get

856

:

into, but like, you know, I think,

that for me just holds a lot of value.

857

:

And that's something that I

noticed right away, and that's

858

:

something that I still appreciate.

859

:

it's just like sitting in an open air

plaza, having a tapa or a bocadillo, and

860

:

drinking cava, or drinking wine, it's

mostly wine, drinking wine, and just...

861

:

Being there existing in the world.

862

:

I feel like that that's the

biggest thing and yeah, it's just

863

:

it's humble here I feel like that

that's another thing over here.

864

:

It's it's very humble and I really

appreciate that because I've been in

865

:

an environment Talking about Miami

and New York Where it's not as much.

866

:

And I feel like it's more about community.

867

:

And like you mentioned, that's

something that I'm always talking

868

:

about because that's what I want.

869

:

and for me, when you're in

a place that's all about

870

:

community, I want to be in there.

871

:

I want to be a vital

member of the community.

872

:

I want to be someone that people rely

on and also have people that I rely on.

873

:

and I want a child to be raised in that

sort of like world, if that makes sense.

874

:

YD: It does, it does, absolutely.

875

:

And the funny thing for me is that

this is what I've been looking for

876

:

for the past six years as well.

877

:

I've been looking for a community and I

never thought I would find it in Chicago.

878

:

And I just realized that this year

I'm like, I want to move to Barcelona.

879

:

I want to move to the end of the world.

880

:

I want to move away from here and I

actually realized that it was here all

881

:

along, but I wasn't ready to see it until

now, you know, it's just, I don't know,

882

:

it's funny how life works sometimes, when

you're ready to see something, it presents

883

:

you with, with something beautiful,

you know, but I, I relate that to that

884

:

sense of having a community so much.

885

:

And, I hope that you continue building a

beautiful community there in Barcelona.

886

:

And I hope that you and I can catch

up over a cava in one of those open

887

:

air plazas really soon, because

that sounds just absolutely lovely.

888

:

ERF: yeah, no, definitely.

889

:

YD: Amazing.

890

:

Yeah,

891

:

ERF: Just one note though, I think what

you're, what you said about sometimes

892

:

not seeing things for what they are.

893

:

That's having that ability to take

a step back and appreciate things

894

:

or be present, I think is massive.

895

:

So kudos to you.

896

:

Like, congrats to you for doing that.

897

:

And it doesn't always take a global move

to Barcelona, Spain or anywhere else.

898

:

Sometimes just looking at what you

have and where you're at can really

899

:

create that sense of community or

create whatever it is you're longing

900

:

for, whatever it is you want.

901

:

Yeah, so, congrats.

902

:

YD: Thank you.

903

:

Thank you.

904

:

Uh, Emy, I, I want to keep talking to you.

905

:

We talk so well together and, I wish

we were together in person though,

906

:

so I could give you a hug too.

907

:

But, we're going to start wrapping

up here, but I wanted to ask you, so,

908

:

you've been on a journey, I think, too.

909

:

And again, I think that's why

we connected in the first place.

910

:

Connected so deeply in the first place

because it seems to me that we've been on

911

:

kind of similar journeys in a lot of ways.

912

:

So tell me what is delighting

you the most right now?

913

:

And what's coming up for you that

makes you really delightful about

914

:

where you are in the world or where

you are in life at the moment?

915

:

ERF: So, currently there's nothing

really massive happening in my life,

916

:

outside of like the writing and the

traveling, which is a different thing.

917

:

But what I'm most excited about, is

the challenge that I'm gonna have.

918

:

the holidays are coming up.

919

:

I'm planning on spending

it here in Europe.

920

:

You know, I'm excited about that.

921

:

I'm excited about the possibility

of hanging out with my family.

922

:

A queer community that I'm

forming here in Barcelona.

923

:

I'm excited about the potential

relationships I'm going to have that

924

:

I already have and I don't have.

925

:

I'm excited about just, the unknown,

because I've been here about a year and

926

:

a half, but I'm still kind of new in the

city and I'm excited for what that means.

927

:

I'm excited for the future, for the hope.

928

:

I'm excited for hope.

929

:

That's it.

930

:

I don't want to come on, come

across too biblical, but like,

931

:

I think, I'm definitely really excited

for hope because, you know, I think we

932

:

relate in a lot of ways and not everything

is as rosy as we sometimes paint it.

933

:

And I think for me, I'm

excited for the hope.

934

:

I'm excited for what's next.

935

:

Cause, life's a journey

as well as a comedy.

936

:

but I feel, I feel like I'm,

emotionally ready for the journey.

937

:

YD: I love that.

938

:

I love that so much.

939

:

And I, and I think again, I feel

very similar right now because that's

940

:

I feel about Chicago right now.

941

:

The possibility of meeting new people,

of experiencing new things, it's funny,

942

:

like, for me, that was always the travel.

943

:

Is where I got that from and not at home.

944

:

Like I always looked forward to

those new things and connections

945

:

and everything when I'm traveling.

946

:

But lately, you know, cause I haven't

been traveling so much because of school.

947

:

And, I'm getting all those things

in the city that I'm staying at.

948

:

And how cool is that?

949

:

Like that is a new, new

experience for me, you know.

950

:

ERF: Yeah, no, definitely.

951

:

Yeah, it's

952

:

an adventure on its own, you know?

953

:

YD: Absolutely.

954

:

Absolutely.

955

:

Although it might not sound as

fabulous to our listeners are

956

:

like, wait, you're not traveling to

Botswana or the Arctic Circle anymore.

957

:

You're staying in Chicago.

958

:

What?

959

:

ERF: I mean, everything is relative,

960

:

Chicago's a really cool city, too.

961

:

Like, if you were, like, in, I don't

know, North Dakota, I would question it.

962

:

But you're in Chicago, so it's fine.

963

:

YD: And We need to redo for you

because you told me that horrible

964

:

story about Chicago, but we'll keep

it for another time on the podcast.

965

:

So yeah, We talked about, some deep

things and, I, I appreciated your

966

:

honesty and your vulnerability on this

conversation and I hope that, you have

967

:

a really beautiful holiday season in

Spain and that you continue on this

968

:

journey of, of discovery and, and growth

and building that community for yourself.

969

:

And I hope to see you in

Chicago sometime soon, too.

970

:

That would be lovely.

971

:

ERF: Maybe soon.

972

:

Maybe, sometime soon.

973

:

After the new year.

974

:

YD: After the sun comes back to

this part of the world, right?

975

:

ERF: thank you for opening the

space and thank you for sharing as

976

:

well and, creating what I equate

to as a safe space for dialogue.

977

:

I really like that.

978

:

we need more of those.

979

:

So, thank you for having me.,

thank you for, for having me.

980

:

YD: Thank you so much for

listening to our podcast today.

981

:

If you've been enjoying listening

to our show, please take a moment

982

:

to leave us a rating or review on

Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or

983

:

share this episode on social media.

984

:

Our lovely theme music this season, Abbad

El Shams, is provided by Rawan Roshni,

985

:

a Palestinian Balkan singer based in

Jordan who experiments across genres.

986

:

Our partner this season is Visit Jordan.

987

:

My name is Yulia Denisyuk

and I will see you next week.

988

:

Take care and safe travels.

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