Along with chirping about baby back ribs and untoasted English Muffins, the guys are back in action discussing the current state and impact of Direct-to-Consumer brands. John fires off a new lightning round segment and Brian’s shoots for rarified air with his Hopelessly Unattainable Guest.

Key topics & chapter markers 

(00:00) It’s So Hard to Say Goodbye to Chili’s

(01:11) Snap Decision – Brian: DTC zombie brands

(04:11) John’s response for reviving old brands

(07:31) “Going viral”

(09:19) John introduces “Snap Decisions: Lightning Round, Extremely Ill-Informed Edition”

(12:45) Come fly with Brian’s Dear Hopelessly Unattainable Guest

Background content

“Meet the zombie brands: Why Blue Apron, Allbirds, and others are still alive, only different” - Fast Company

“Bringing bankrupt brands back from the dead is big business” - The Hustle

“Our blades Are f***ing great” - Dollar Shave Club

“The sisterhood of the Stanley tumbler” - New York Times

“Baby Back Ribs jingle featuring Boyz II Men” - Chili's

Bulls kills the Sixers and Brian’s dreams - Basketball Reference

Connect with Brian and John on LinkedIn:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianmarks13/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-l-young/

Morning, John, how you doing?

2

John: Good, Brian.

3

Good morning to you, sir.

4

How are you?

5

Brian: I'm doing great.

6

I just heard some awesome news.

7

Chili's the restaurant group is bringing

back their, baby back ribs commercials.

8

John: Wow, you're coming

in hot with that one

9

Brian: I it's a hot take.

10

And even better than that, they are

11

John: That damn song, the damn

song's already in my head.

12

Thank you.

13

Brian: you won't get rid of it, and even

better, Boyz II Men is, in the commercial

14

singing the song, who people have long

thought, the song was built around.

15

John: Wow.

16

Wow.

17

Brian: Yeah, so that

18

John: This is all news to me

and fascinating news at that.

19

Brian: so good.

20

Look that up.

21

That was, that was really a fun

way to wake up this morning.

22

John: Well, uh, I'm glad you've

had such a good start to your day.

23

Mine has been, little bit more

discombobulated, including switching

24

to, what might be a crappy microphone.

25

I'm not sure, so we'll see.

26

Brian: We'll see how that comes out.

27

One other element about that

commercial that I really like that.

28

I think you're going to really love is

the amount of snaps that they put into

29

the new Chili's baby back ribs commercial.

30

John: nice, nice.

31

Brian: Yeah.

32

So, uh, the snap attack is,

uh, is really high in that one.

33

Let's get started.

34

John: Right on, giddy up.

35

Brian: let's get right into

our first snap decision.

36

, John, I've been reading a lot

lately about, direct to consumer

37

brands and kind of where they're at.

38

And actually where they're not at.

39

There's been a lot of investment

in, in these types of brands,

40

the last several years.

41

We've seen them all over the place

with, , dollar shave club, uh blue apron,

42

John: Casper mattresses.

43

Brian: yeah, Casper, all these

brands and, unfortunately.

44

they've been extremely overvalued

and, , I was reading an article in Fast

45

Company this week that really talked

about how they're almost becoming zombie

46

brands where, , they exist in name

only and, and what's behind them is.

47

Not anywhere near what their original

purpose was and the way that they

48

operate, has kind of been hollowed out

and, , that really, , was an interesting,

49

, look at where they're at in the

marketplace now and how, investment

50

companies have, overinvested in this.

51

John: So, so Brian, when you say zombie

brands, is that referring to like a

52

brand that, that previously was something

different and now is a direct consumer or,

53

or, or tell me more about what that means.

54

Brian: so that means that,

they still exist, sort of.

55

They exist in name only,

but , , the operations behind

56

it, is completely different.

57

So, , in the case of blue apron,

who, was really going down a path

58

of like sourcing their own food and

bringing a whole sustainability lens

59

to the type of food prep that they,

um, to the consumer directly and

60

kind of cutting out the middleman.

61

they're now operating in a completely

different way where they're, they're not

62

even sourcing their own food anymore,

and they're outsourcing the, the food

63

itself and more focusing on, recipes

and marketing and, kind of leveraging

64

their name and not the way that they

operate, which is really interesting.

65

John: Should I think of the example

of, Bed Bath and Beyond kind of after

66

going bankrupt and being bought by

Overstock, no longer has stores.

67

Well, there are stores, there are big

empty, husks of stores out there that

68

you drive by, , but now the brand is.

69

Still existing online, but run by

Overstock as an e commerce brand.

70

, is that a relevant example of

what you're talking about here?

71

Brian: In a way, yeah.

72

And, uh, you know, another example is,

is Converse who was bought by Nike and,

73

you know, Converse name still has some,

some play, but it's run completely by

74

Nike, which was a former competitor.

75

So, you know, they still, they still

operate, but not, you know, not in

76

the same way, or, in this case through

a, an entirely different operator.

77

another example is a, is a company

called authentic brands group, which,

78

Really picks up and owns these types

of, , companies that go bankrupt and,

79

and owns the licensing and IP behind it.

80

And then they, they form out other

people to do the retail part, and

81

then they just kind of use the

marketing purposes, which is, it was

82

just fascinating to me and another.

83

Direct to consumer brand that's kind of

faltering right now that was overvalued

84

is, is Allbirds, which was kind of a

darling a few years ago and, and is

85

kind of falling on hard times as well.

86

And, and so, so my snap decision for you

is, will this impact how people bring

87

products to consumers moving forward?

88

Our brands.

89

overestimating who they are

and what they want to be and

90

what do you think about that

91

John: I think most brands overestimate,

what they, what they want to be.

92

Yeah.

93

I do think that there are

an awful lot of brands.

94

I mean, the, the examples you've just

shared there, there are a ton of them

95

where a brand kind of peaked, you know,

had its run, and then went into some

96

sort of lull or bankruptcy or something.

97

But there's still some,

combination of IP and consumer.

98

enthusiasm or emotion tied to it.

99

so, you know, I, I think about, I mean,

the one that kind of jumps into my mind

100

from a while ago, and it's a little

different from the direct consumer piece

101

you're talking about, but Abercrombie

and Fitch, which I, I didn't even realize

102

when it kind of became a team brand in the

nineties, that was a total reinvention.

103

And I think it's second

reinvention, right?

104

It, lived for like.

105

think almost a century as a true

hardcore outdoor outfitter, right?

106

There was like hunting gear and

fishing gear and like legit stuff.

107

And then I think fell in hard times, did

get reinvented as a direct consumer brand.

108

I think it was like a mail order,

but still in the hunting thing.

109

So they kind of like took their core.

110

Woke it back up later, you know, direct

consumer to back in the catalog days and

111

then went completely into the shadows

until someone who I don't even know who

112

but eventually ended up as part of the

limited Group of brands I think right?

113

But there was some brand awareness and

provenance, I guess around Abercrombie

114

and Fitch That someone turned into a teen

brand, a teen fashion brand, kind of wild

115

how that one just totally got reinvented.

116

which is a little different from what

way I think some of these brands get

117

, restored, which is to really go back

to their core, what they stood for.

118

, but I think that that is

increasingly a hard proposition.

119

I think usually these brands got

to kind of reinvent themselves.

120

Brian: Yeah.

121

you know, the direct to consumer model,

is fascinating just in the fact that,

122

know, you're cutting out the retail

stores and You're able to really just

123

build a relationship with the consumer

directly and not rely on, placement

124

in those places basically rely on on

everybody else to do your work for you.

125

But, you know, that, that costs a

lot more money to do it that way.

126

John: yeah.

127

Money, money, a big part of the formula,

128

Brian: that's a lot of things, right?

129

John: Yeah, you know, think about your,

converse example, which is, a great one.

130

I don't know how much they faded

before Nike bought them, but I

131

think they're, they've kind of

become a little bit irrelevant.

132

Nike really leaned into that as

an old school, cool brand, right?

133

But it's Nike.

134

So you know, there was a combination of.

135

And I think this may be, is maybe

a formula that others will have

136

followed and can follow, which

is like smart marketing, right?

137

Nike's known for that.

138

Plenty of dollars and nostalgia.

139

You know, I think, I think you

put those things together and you

140

got a chance at a good revival.

141

Brian: And I think that's when a

company like Authentic Brands Group

142

is, is snatching up some of these

bankrupt brands, I think that's what

143

they're, they're really trying to get

people to hang on that, that nostalgia.

144

John: I feel like if you don't have

that kind of nostalgia or some sort of

145

strong brand connection with, you know,

strong brand position in the consumer's

146

head, trying to restore an old brand is

probably just like building a new one.

147

Brian: the interesting thing with the

dollar shave club, which had really a

148

model that our mission that struck at

people was the, you know, shaving became

149

such an expensive thing to shave in a

really more efficient way so they, they

150

were able to build a lot of, of equity

in the, in the marketplace, but, uh,

151

and then Unilever bought them and then

all Unilever is kind of spinning them

152

off because, you know, I, I guess they

couldn't make the type of money that, you

153

know, targeted to make or whatever, but

154

John: Well, it's hard to live

up to the expectations that

155

get created when you are viral.

156

Out of the gates, right?

157

Which is really how Dollar Shave

Club burst on the scene, ? They

158

did that amazing viral

launch ad with their founder.

159

tried to recreate it, you know, in another

version a couple years later, a year

160

later, but I don't think they ever tapped

into the virality they launched with.

161

And I'm going to guess they were

fairly, yes, this is speculation.

162

They were probably fairly overvalued based

on a really strong market presence that

163

came from something that's kind of hard

to, it's hard to recreate a viral ad.

164

Brian: it's like the thing that

they always say at, at, , marketing

165

conferences, when, when you get

the brief and it's like, you know,

166

I want to, how do I go viral?

167

John: Yeah, create something viral.

168

Oh, sure.

169

Brian: Sure.

170

Let me just, let me just do that.

171

John: There's a formula.

172

We'll just

173

Brian: There's a formula.

174

Uh, we're just going to go viral

and then we'll go from there.

175

speaking of brands that shifted, uh,

there's one really interesting, uh,

176

today, you know, it's fascinating

to hear the shift of Abercrombie.

177

But what about Stanley?

178

teenagers are bringing them to

school every single day and all of

179

them have it and they all, um, are

carrying around everywhere they go.

180

So talk about a shift from, you

know, you talk about Abercrombie,

181

a shift from hunting to teens.

182

Stanley's kind of doing the same thing.

183

John: Well, educate me.

184

I don't know, I don't know what the,

the teen affiliation to Stanley is.

185

What are we, what are we carrying?

186

Brian: Well, the drink mugs,

187

John: Gotcha.

188

Gotcha.

189

Oh, right.

190

Right.

191

Right.

192

I did hear about this.

193

Brian: Yeah.

194

So, um, and I know that

195

John: am I correct in that?

196

Fascinating.

197

Brian: And so, I think consumers went

through the Yeti phase and now it we're

198

in the Stanley face, Yeah, so that's

kind of fascinating because that's, you

199

know, always been construction worker

kind of brand and, hat type of thing.

200

And now, uh, you have teenage girls.

201

So,

202

John: Maybe, maybe more weekend warrior

than, than hard hat, but, but either

203

way, uh, it's certainly a shift.

204

Brian: yeah.

205

Yeah.

206

All right.

207

So, uh, what do you got for me?

208

John: Alright, so, uh, I did not prepare

a thoughtful, well investigated, , topic

209

like your direct to consumer brand and

zombie brand conversation, but I did put

210

together a, uh, Snap Decisions lightning

round, extremely ill informed edition.

211

Um, yeah, I think, maybe it's a

new segment, you know, because

212

we're, what, three episodes in

here, why not have another segment?

213

Um, this, this is.

214

Top of mind, man.

215

Just, I want real time reactions to some

questions I'm going to post to you.

216

Some are really important,

and some are not.

217

Brian: oh, great.

218

Put me in the hot seat.

219

John: Exactly.

220

None of them are really important.

221

And, by the way, uh, feel free to rename

this segment from the Snap Decisions

222

Lightning Round Extremely Ill Informed

Edition, because that's a little clunky.

223

Alright, you ready?

224

Brian: Let's do it.

225

John: Let's start simple.

226

Coke or Pepsi?

227

Brian: Coke.

228

John: headlines or super

strong call to action buttons?

229

Brian: I'm going to go

call to action buttons.

230

John: I knew you would.

231

Is it ever okay to serve a breakfast

sandwich on an untoasted English muffin?

232

Brian: No.

233

John: Thank you.

234

That, that's the first, that's

the only question with a right

235

or wrong, and you're correct.

236

It is never

237

Brian: Okay.

238

Good.

239

This is an all judgment zone.

240

John: Yeah, there's a, there's a

story behind this, but it's boring,

241

but suffice to say it had me, um,

had a granola level of anxiety.

242

Brian: Yes.

243

I can see, I can feel

the grumpiness there.

244

That's good.

245

Apple.

246

John: can, who consistently, consistently

over time, out, uh, two decades,

247

over the past two decades, turns out

the best advertising Nike or Apple.

248

Ooh, didn't even hesitate.

249

Tomorrow morning, Brian.

250

Aliens arrive.

251

And install a new worldwide government.

252

Brian: Geez, now I'm scared.

253

John: gets weirder.

254

Brian: Where are you going?

255

John: to outlaw either beer or bourbon.

256

I'm not sure why, but they're an

alien race and really intelligent,

257

so they must have a reason.

258

They're going to outlaw

either beer or bourbon.

259

Which one of those upsets you the most?

260

Brian: oh man, that's a good one.

261

I need to eliminate beer.

262

So, uh, I don't want them

to take away the bourbon.

263

John: Oh, okay.

264

All right.

265

I, I didn't expect that.

266

Brian: Okay.

267

I mean, I don't want, I don't want

them to get rid of either, but

268

John: Uh, I, I will,

I'll only do one more.

269

Um, driving your own car

forever or eventually being a

270

passenger in an autonomous car.

271

Brian: I got to drive

your own car forever.

272

I mean, this is ridiculous.

273

John: Oh, wow.

274

Right.

275

Okay.

276

All right.

277

Brian: It's all about the

loss of control there.

278

John: Okay.

279

Loss of control or the glory

of sitting in a small living

280

room doing whatever you want.

281

Well, you are effortlessly and

safely escorted to your destination,

282

perhaps while drinking bourbon.

283

I mean, come on Brian.

284

Brian: I support the evolution

of how we get from A to Z.

285

I just don't know how I'm gonna,

you know, easily give up the

286

control there, but yes, we do need

to do that and, uh, I'm fascinated

287

by the autonomous driving thing.

288

I just, I don't know how I'm going

to sit in the car and go with it,

289

Give me a lot more bourbon

and I'll be all right.

290

John: all right This feels like a

future episode actually because I

291

remember you and I had a similar kind

of mind blown reaction Watching the

292

Waymo self driving Jaguars driving

around San Francisco about a year ago,

293

Brian: Yeah.

294

Yeah.

295

All

296

John: all right.

297

Yeah, that's it.

298

I mean, I have more, but I'll save them.

299

Maybe, maybe we'll do it again sometime.

300

Do more lightning round after

you give it a good name.

301

Brian: right.

302

Well, um, I, I like it.

303

Thanks for, uh, thanks

for the new segment.

304

I think, I we go from that one

to a, uh, to a regular one.

305

John: Oh, a regular and extremely

popular, uh, damn near viral segment.

306

Brian: get me viral.

307

All right.

308

So John, uh, in this week's

hopelessly unattainable guest.

309

Uh, I'm gonna go for, uh, I'm

gonna go for Michael Jordan.

310

John: Ooh.

311

Brian: So, we've had Tim Cook.

312

Last week, you, uh, desperately pleaded

for Taylor Swift to join the show.

313

I'm gonna go with MJ.

314

And remember, these are moonshots.

315

These are people that, might take

a little more effort to get on the

316

show than, somebody that might be

willing to sit down and talk to,

317

podcast legends like you and I.

318

But,

319

John: Just, just a little harder to get.

320

Yeah.

321

Brian: So, this is my, plea to Michael

Jordan to come and join our show.

322

I, I have a lot of respect for

this guy and who wouldn't want

323

to sit down with MJ, right?

324

So let's see, let's see if

this does the trick, okay?

325

You ready?

326

John: do it.

327

Oh, there's a plea.

328

Let's hear the plea.

329

Brian: All right.

330

Hello, Michael.

331

Can I call you Mike?

332

You're a legend, a hero to all,

an inspiration for following

333

and achieving your dreams.

334

But for me, you terrified my youth.

335

Your bulls always killed my sixers.

336

We stood no chance.

337

Everyone wore your jersey, walked in

your shoes, worshipped your every move.

338

I hated it.

339

You were better than us.

340

Better than me.

341

Six championships.

342

My team still hasn't won since 1983.

343

But let's make amends.

344

I'm not bitter.

345

We'd love to have you on Snap Decisions,

a new podcast where we discuss and break

346

down the past and blockers in life.

347

I'm over my childish feelings.

348

We want to learn about your journey.

349

We can talk about your gold medals, your

scoring titles, your critical acclaim.

350

Nike, the riveting Last Dance documentary.

351

How you became a billionaire

352

My dad and I had tickets to Game 4 of

the Eastern Conference Semifinals with

353

family friends against your bulls.

354

But we could never find those

friends outside the spectrum

355

when we tried to meet up.

356

There were no cell phones

back then, of course.

357

After 40 minutes, we

gave up and drove away.

358

My dad bought me ice cream as

I cried the whole way home.

359

You beat us by 16 and closed

out the series two days later.

360

It's alright.

361

It's fine.

362

I'm over it.

363

I really want to hear about you and your

ever thriving Jordan brand and the impact

364

you've had on kids all over the world.

365

And Charles Barkley, couldn't he

just figure out how to beat you?

366

Did it really have to be that hard?

367

I guess we'll never know.

368

But let's talk.

369

I promise a stable and prominent

stage with an objective lens.

370

You won't regret it.

371

Sincerely, Snap Decisions.

372

John: Wow.

373

Brian: You think?

374

You think he's gonna...

375

John: If, if, if he hears the lingering

resentment and bitterness in your

376

voice the way I do, I mean, I know

you said you've, you're over it.

377

You didn't sound even remotely over it.

378

That's true.

379

You really went to a playoff game

and you, you, you couldn't meet up

380

the people that had your tickets?

381

Is that what happened?

382

Brian: That's what happened?

383

That

384

John: God.

385

Yeah.

386

Brian: was devastating.

387

John: Yeah.

388

You think?

389

Brian: Yeah, we, uh...

390

My dad heard that we were going to meet

at a, uh, at a punter statue that the,

391

that was outside veteran stadium, which

392

John: I remember the punter statue, yeah.

393

Brian: veteran stadium was right

across the street from the spectrum.

394

And, uh, it was behind the veteran

stadium, which, you know, it was

395

kind of far away from the spectrum.

396

I don't know why we thought we were

going to meet there, but apparently, uh,

397

our friends were waiting on the steps

of the spectrum for us the whole time.

398

John: Wow.

399

Are you, are you, are

400

Brian: that was that.

401

And so we, they, they did end

402

John: did you remain

friends with those people?

403

Brian: taking us to a game a

couple, a couple of years later

404

when Barclay was on the suns and

he came back to play the Sixers.

405

And of course the Sixers lost that

game too, but, um, it's all good.

406

John: What?

407

Look, let me answer your question.

408

Yes, I think MJ, we got a shot at MJ if

we land either Tim Cook or Taylor Swift.

409

I think he's, I feel like as, as,

as pioneering and trailblazing

410

as Michael Jordan is and was.

411

I think he's going to

need that credibility.

412

So we got to, we got to land

that kind of A list or that

413

moonshot to get him to say yes.

414

Brian: Yeah.

415

So what is our, who's our, who's,

who's our best shot so far out of all

416

of our hopelessly unattainable guests?

417

Is it Tim cook?

418

Is it Taylor Swift or

is it Michael Jordan?

419

John: Well, I mean, we're approaching

his 0 percent chance on all of them.

420

So it's probably a dead heat.

421

Underline hopelessly unattainable,

422

Brian: All

423

John: I'm not, I won't give up hope and

get one stuff starts falling into place.

424

You never know.

425

Brian: I like your attitude.

426

It's good.

427

John: Exactly.

428

Um, all right, well, thanks for,

thanks for coming loaded for bear

429

with your, uh, with your, uh, your

hopelessly unattainable guest and

430

your, your, your brand conversation.

431

Always a pleasure.

432

before we go, should we

tease the next guest or not?

433

Brian: Yeah.

434

Why don't you, uh, go for

435

John: Okay, I'll leave it at this.

436

This guy's basically the Michael

Jordan of Paralympic skiing.

437

How about that?

438

Brian: I like it.

439

I like it.

440

John: I'll leave it there.

441

Brian: Can't wait to see

where we go with that.

442

John: on the next episode

of Snap Decisions.

443

Brian: Chili's baby back ribs.

444

John: Ha ha ha ha ha ha.

445

Screw you.

446

See ya.