Think starting a podcast is just talking into a microphone? Dave Jackson from the School of Podcasting reveals why that mindset kills most business podcasts before they even get started. With over 20 years of podcasting experience and thousands of successful launches under his belt, Dave shares the brutal truths about what separates podcasters who stick around from those who fade away. From the hidden time costs that shock new podcasters to the monetisation mistakes that keep creators broke, this conversation will change how you think about podcasting as a business tool. If you're considering a podcast for your business or wondering why yours isn't growing, Dave's insights could save you months of frustration.

Resources

Guest Links:

• School of Podcasting: https://schoolofpodcasting.com/
• Dave's FREE podcasting checklist: https://schoolofpodcasting.com/podcast-launch-checklist/

Podjunction Ecosystem:

• Podjunction Home: https://podjunction.com/

you don't monetize a podcast.

You monetize an audience and so many people mm-hmm.

Start focusing on how am I gonna monetize?

Not how am I gonna get an audience?

because You can't monetize dust.

It just doesn't work.

Hey there, I'm Sadaf Beynon, and this is Podjunction podcast, the

show where business leaders share how they use podcasting to grow,

connect, and build their brands.

Today's guest is someone I've been following since I

first got into podcasting.

He's not just a podcasting educator.

He's one of the people who made podcasting feel accessible to the rest of us.

If you've ever Googled how to start a podcast, chances are you've come across

the school of podcasting, and today we get to hear from the men behind it all.

Dave Jackson.

I. Dave, welcome to the show.

Oh, thanks for having me.

Looking forward to this.

Awesome.

It's, um, I have been wanting to have you on the show for quite some

time, so I have, I'm having a little bit of a starstruck moment at the,

well.

Dave, you have helped thousands launch their shows.

What's something you noticed really early on that tells you this

person is going to stick with it?

When I. I asked them about their subject, they kind of light up and,

uh, you know, I, I just had a member of the School of Podcasting was in my

town, so we went out to dinner and he does a show about, um, model trains.

So it's very niche.

Yeah.

And

when he gets going on that subject, he just, you can just

see his passion just bubble out.

And that's when I know Okay.

He's he's got it.

Because when you first start out.

And, you know, you're going through the learning curve.

And as much as I try to flatten that, you know, you're learning new stuff.

Yeah.

And, and we, we don't all like that 'cause we're, it's, we're

uncomfortable and things like that.

And when you first start and you put that first episode out

and, and you go, wait, I have.

I have 13 cousins and I only have 12 downloads.

It, it can be a little depressing and that's when that

passion of like, I don't care.

I would talk about this for free

as

you first get up and, and going.

So I think that's one of the things.

There's that and just, uh, another one is I have a, a member, she does

a show called My Spouse has Dementia.

And when she started it, she said, somebody needs to tell the truth.

She goes, because I watched tv and she said, you know, somebody on

a TV show will lose their keys.

And they're like, oh my gosh, do I have dementia?

And she's like, that's nothing.

She goes, you know, she, and uh, she'd been taking care of her, her husband

obviously, since the name of the show, and she's like, this is a horrible disease.

Mm-hmm.

And so she started this show and what's.

What's sad, but, but you know, there is a, a, an inner lining that still moves

on is she lost her spouse, which you kind of expect, but the show lives on

and she says, I still get people that have found the show and say, I'm so

glad you put this out here because I.

I thought I was the only person going through this, or I didn't

realize what I was getting into, and she just said, she just had this,

like, I have to talk about this.

Yeah.

It was just like, I don't care about the technology.

I know I'm gonna somehow figure this out.

I have to do this, so.

Mm-hmm.

When you have that passion or that drive that really pushes people

through at the very beginning.

Yeah, I, I absolutely agree with you.

What is there, is there still a space though, even if you've got

the passion and the drive, is there still space for pod fade?

Yeah, there's, it's a couple things and that's why I always, I. I don't wanna

come off negative, but I always try to paint a picture of reality, you know?

'cause people think, well, I'll, I've actually had people say, I, I want to

quit my day job and start a podcast and quit my day job in like six weeks.

And I go, did you say six years?

And they're like, no, six weeks.

And I'm like, that's, you know, there are people on the internet

that will tell you you can do that.

Mm-hmm.

And I'm like, it's a very rare kind of thing.

Yeah.

And the other thing is it, um.

You, you may have, uh, a lot of people try to fit their life into their podcast.

Mm-hmm.

And I'm like, you have that backwards.

You want to fit your podcast into your life.

So when I have somebody come up and go, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna

do a daily show about such and such, and I'm like, wait, hold on.

Like, did you say daily?

And they're like, yeah.

I'm like, well, let's, let's start off with, you know, when you record

your first couple episodes, start your, your phone or something.

Track everything.

Mm-hmm.

So when you're doing the research on the guest, if you're doing interviews

and then track the whole time you talk to the person, not just the, you know,

it was a 20 minute interview, but Yeah.

But it took you, you know, an hour and a half to do the 20 minute interview.

And that's fine.

That's really, for me, the, the big power of interviews

is the relationship you build.

You know, and I said, and when you get done and you go, oh wow, that took me, I

don't know, I'll just pull out a number.

14 hours to do that.

Half hour podcast.

I go, do you have 14 hours a week?

To do that.

And I go, no, I, I, I'm actually, I have a spouse and two kids and

soccer and all this other stuff.

And you're like, well, guess what?

You're not doing a weekly show.

You're doing maybe biweekly or whatever, and a daily show.

Even if it's short, takes a lot of time and there are things

you can do to, to do that.

So I think that's the thing sometimes that people think,

I was just talking into a mic.

Yeah.

And I'm like, well there's, there's actually, it's, if it's

all in your head, okay, great.

Then you don't have to do a lot of research, but

mm-hmm.

I

don't know about you, but I'm not perfect, so I usually have to do a little

editing and then I gotta write something for Google to find on the website.

Yeah.

And then you gotta upload it and you're like, Hmm.

You know, it still takes the best I've ever done.

Was four to one.

Mm-hmm.

And that's

where I was doing what amounted to a 15 minute podcast.

And it took me an hour 'cause I had to do a little research, then I

recorded it, then I edit it and I typed up a, like a paragraph and a half.

Yeah.

Then I

published it and I looked up and I was like, wow, that took an hour.

And I was like, wow.

Oh wow.

You know?

So it's, and that's 'cause there really wasn't any research.

Research is for me, the thing that depending on how deep you want to get.

That's something that you can, you know, I had one episode where I took

probably two weeks here and there just a little bit here, just doing research.

Mm-hmm.

And a lot of people are like, well Dave, haven't you heard

of Perplexity or Chat GPT?

And I'm like,

yeah,

you gotta realize those language models while they are, you know,

they do some amazing stuff.

Most of them are not up to date.

Right.

They're like a couple years behind that they, that's where the data came from.

And I'm like, so your goal is to be a thought leader?

Using thoughts from 20 22, 2

years ago.

Yeah.

I, I

go, I'm, I'm not sure how that's gonna work.

And so, uh, yeah.

So it's, it's when people jump in and they go, Ooh, this is, this is

not just talking into a microphone, that sometimes they get a little, um,

and I always say it does get easier.

Mm-hmm.

But it's, it's, I've never heard anybody say, oh, this is, it

doesn't take any time at all.

Yeah.

And like, hmm.

It, it, it takes some time and that's why you gotta love it.

Yeah, that's right.

And I think you're, yeah, you're absolutely right because when you first

think of podcasting, you think of a mic and you think of a person, talking, and so

you think that's all there is to it, but once you get in it and you start peeling

back the layers, there's so much more.

Yeah.

It's like, I mean, if you look at anybody in the entertainment industry, whether

it's an actor, like how long did it take them to learn their lines or a musician?

Mm-hmm.

It's not like they just picked up a guitar and just started playing

every song in the songbook.

It takes practice and.

You know, uh, dedication and things like that, and

podcasting, no different as much.

Even if you're doing the news and you're just relating the news of the day,

well, you still had to go find the news and you know, that whole nine yards.

So it, it takes a little more time than it is.

And that's where I've heard a lot of people say, you know, I don't

really have the audience size I want, but I'm having a blast.

And I'm like, that's really what you gotta have when you're,

you're first starting out.

Mm-hmm.

Because it takes a while for the, the ball to get rolling.

And I really like what you're saying about the research aspect of it.

'cause it's not just stepping up to the mic and talking, whatever, you

know, comes to the top of your head.

It's about resonating with your audience.

Yeah, that's, uh, I'm, I'm working on, well really the last couple I have, uh,

had interviews and when I do an interview I go out and listen to past interviews.

Um, this time I actually tried something different.

It didn't, again, I, I like AI and sometimes it just does brilliant

stuff and other times Hmm.

But I, I took transcripts of previous interviews.

Mm-hmm.

Threw it into chat, GPT and said, give me a list of all the questions

that were previously asked.

Okay.

And then I

said, great, uh, chat, GPT.

Now gimme some questions that they should have asked, but they didn't.

And it gave me a big, long list, but none of them were any good.

Uh, but it still let me see what they had talked about.

And I, anytime I listen to an interview, I'm always listening for

the follow up question that was missed.

So if they, somebody says something, they say this great question, and they just,

you can kind of tell that the interviewer has their questions in front of them

and they're like, great, wonderful.

What was your aha moment?

And you're like, wait, wait, wait.

Don't move on.

I, I wanna hear more.

But, so, yeah.

Uh, you know?

Mm-hmm.

But yeah, I'm always, and then for me, research is just hanging out in

groups where my target audience is, whether that's Facebook or Reddit, or a

couple other places, some Slack groups.

And a lot of times I'm not there so much to go, Hey, here I am.

Yeah.

I'm just there to listen and see what people are, are struggling with.

Hmm.

Because when I, my last episode was about how to grow community and how

to start one and some ins and outs.

And that was basically, 'cause I had two people at the School of

Podcasting that are looking to start a community and I told them what I knew

and you know, the ins and outs and I brought on an expert and so, mm-hmm.

When I. What?

I'm no longer guessing.

I wonder if this is gonna go over.

Yeah.

And I can kind of think to myself, oh, this episode is for Ralph.

Or, you know, there was one about interviewing that I did, and I've talked

about interviews a lot, but I found a new expert who had kind of a framework

that, you know, it was like a, um, a new kind of view of a very old topic.

Hmm.

And I had a lot of people say that was really cool.

So it's always, you know, listening to the audience and then trying to figure

out how to give them what they want.

Yeah.

No, that's, that's great.

Dave Podcasting, um, used to be a passion project.

Now more and more it's becoming a, a strategic tool that businesses use.

How have you seen that shift play out, and what, um, what do you

think most business leaders still get wrong about, about that shift?

Yeah.

The, the first one is.

While you can make money from the actual physical MP three file, that's usually

not it, it's just that's the marketing arm

mm-hmm.

Of your business and the, the number one way to make money with your podcast.

And everybody goes advertising.

And I'm like, no.

In fact, that's one of my least favorite.

Uh, but selling your own products and services.

Hmm.

Because when you, we talked about, you know, picking a

schedule that works for you.

So now you're, whatever it is, let's say you're weekly, so every

week you're, you're right there on whatever day you've picked.

So now you're seen as reliable, and then you deliver content that when

people try it or they didn't know or whatever it is, they're like, Hey,

that's, that's actually pretty good.

Hmm.

Uh,

and, and so, and then I say anytime you can make a point with a story.

About yourself.

Um, that's always great 'cause then they get to know you.

So

I remember, man, this has been a while, but when I was growing

up, Muhammad Ali was a big hero of mine at first as a boxer.

And then later as I read books about him and he stood up for what he believed in

and was really just a, an amazing person.

Well, when he died I was really bummed.

Hmm.

And so I was like, well, I've gotta do a podcast about podcasting.

And I was like, but I don't really feel like it.

And so what I did.

Was, I took my passion for Muhammad Ali and I made it into

a podcast about podcasting.

It was like, here's five things every podcaster can learn from Muhammad Ali.

Number one, really talented.

Number two, always promoting number three.

Really unique, you know?

And I just went down the list.

And what was interesting about that is I had people email me.

About that episode, and they're like, Hey, he was my champ too.

And as soon as somebody emails me, I'm like, Hey, thank

you so much for listening.

I'm glad you liked it, by the way, what else would you like to hear on the show?

Fantastic.

But when you have that constant schedule, you're seen as reliable.

You're giving them good content so they like you.

Mm-hmm.

And then when

you share a little bit about yourself, they feel like they know you.

Yeah.

So when you say, Hey, I've got a book, I've got a course, I've got coaching.

Mm-hmm.

Whatever it is you're, you're trying to promote, it's

definitely a much warmer lead.

Than if it's somebody that didn't know you at all.

Hmm.

And

uh, one of my favorite stories, and this is true, there's a show

called The Chameleon Breeder, and I go, as in breeding little,

the the little lizard thing.

And he's like, yeah, I make cages for these.

And I'm like, oh, that's amazing.

And he goes, well, what's interesting?

His audiences said, you know, we can buy these cages cheaper from overseas.

But we buy them from you because you've given us so much information.

So it's the, the law of reciprocity, you know, you've scratched our back,

we're gonna scratch yours kind of thing.

Yeah.

And so it's, it's, it just shows that, that connection

you get with your audience.

So there's that.

I mean, there are other ways too.

You affiliate marketing.

I had one show that, uh, it was funny when Jillian Michaels, who's this, uh.

Uh, fitness trainer.

She was on The Biggest Loser.

It was this really big show on in America.

And, uh.

She quit for a while and did a podcast and then she quit the podcast and went

back to her TV show and everybody was looking for the Jillian Michaels podcast.

So I made one.

'cause I was a big fan.

Still I'm a big fan and I would explain to people, I'm not Jillian Michaels, but

I would talk about whatever she was up to.

'cause she had a blog and all these other things.

Well, her book came out and it was the first book that she

had done, the voiceover for.

Well, audible had an affiliate program and every time somebody

signed up, I made 15 bucks.

And that did really, really well for me.

I was like, that was the first time I think I'd gotten a four figure affiliate

check because everybody was like, oh, Jillian's reading her own book, and I

can get it for free if I use Dave's link.

So affiliate stuff can be really good.

And the beautiful thing about affiliate marketing is it doesn't matter what

size your audience is, it's about.

Finding the right product for the right audience.

I had a, uh, a weight loss show for a while and I was promoting this exercise

device called the Total Gym, and at the time it was on TV all the time.

Every time you turn it on, there's the infomercial and there's uh,

Christie Brinkley and Chuck Norris.

I sold one through over a year and I made my $75 commission.

But you know, all in all, it wasn't great.

And I, uh, I then found these things called fit decks, little decks of

cards, and I bought one and, and dealt myself a little workout and I just

said, wow, this, I couldn't believe how sore I was from, from doing this.

And I said, I could see where.

You could make this a game with your kids.

And that's when I found out most of that audience was female and

they were home with the kids.

And I would make a dollar 50, uh, per deck and they were buying multiple

decks and I would get, you know, a couple hundred bucks here or there.

Yeah.

And so it's, it's again, you, you can find the right product for the right audience.

So there's, they're selling your own stuff.

Affiliate is kind of selling other people's stuff.

Then you get into things like crowdfunding, Patreon, that, here's

one of those sad statistics, but I, I'm like, I gotta tell you, 'cause

people are like, if I could get 50% of my audience to give me five bucks, I'm

like, you're, you're not gonna get 50.

Okay.

If I could get 25 per you're not Yeah.

Like what?

I'm like, if you're really good, maybe 3%.

Mm-hmm.

You know, 5% if you're just amazing.

Right.

And they're like, really?

I'm like, just everybody I talk to, I talk to the people at Teachable, uh,

which is a, a. Platform for selling court.

They said 2%.

I got very lucky last year and ended up at one of those NPR tiny concerts.

I dunno if you've ever seen those.

No, but I was in the Washington DC NPR office and just happened

to be sitting next to the guy that's in charge of the NPR Plus.

So kind of there.

Premium offering.

And I said, I'm not trying to get in your wallet, but percentage wise.

And he goes, eh, somewhere a little over 1%.

And I was like, oh.

So there are people that are crushing it, doing that.

Hmm.

But again, not when you first start.

'cause you don't really monetize a podcast.

You monetize an audience.

Yeah.

And step one is, is build out audience.

Mm-hmm.

And then you get into host red ads, which are work, which work if you have.

10, 20,000 downloads an episode.

Yeah.

And then you get into programmatic, which I affectionately refer to as

Podcast Welfare, where you're getting paid 0 cents a download, which again,

adds up if you've got, you know, 30,000 downloads, uh, an episode.

But the, the thing I'm worried about with ads is the price keeps dropping because

it used to be you could kind of hold the line because not everybody had enough.

There weren't that many podcasts, but as more and more podcasts come

on the line, the advertiser go here, I'd like to give you next to

nothing to advertise on your show.

And the first person goes, I'm not taking that.

And the second person goes, are you crazy?

And the third person goes, oh, it's better than a poke in the eye.

And it's just a race to the bottom.

Yeah.

And I'm like, so I, I, I worry about my friends that are only using

advertising as a, as a monetary source, but, uh, you, you can do it.

But again, for me, my, when people go, how do you make money with a podcast?

I go sell your own stuff.

That's the most profitable way.

Yeah.

As you said, a marketing arm for your business.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Um, there's.

There's, um, entrepreneurs, you know, business owners who are using, um,

podcasting as their marketing arm to build their brand, but sometimes give

up when results aren't instantaneous.

So, you know, we know that it takes some time.

So what do you think, or what would you say is a smarter way to measure

ROI that most people would miss?

Possibly?

Yeah.

This is the one that everybody goes to downloads.

And I don't, I mean, I, I'd have to think, is it probably four months

since I've looked at my stats?

Yeah.

I kind of glance at them once a month to kind of see, you know, that make sure that

the bottom hasn't fallen out somewhere.

Yeah.

But I'll give you an example.

Like I, I always say there's, there's the, why are you doing this?

You need to know your why.

Um, because if you don't get your why, then now we're back to pod fade.

Yeah.

And

then there's the who and who can't be everybody.

And people think they niche down, they go, oh, it's for men.

25 to 50.

And I go, I got news for you.

There's a big difference between a 25-year-old guy and a 50-year-old guy.

I go, we, we need to get a little tighter on that.

Hmm.

But when you overlap the your why and the who, that kind of gives you your what?

What am I gonna talk about that either educates or entertains, preferably both

the who, which will help you build your audience, but moves them towards your why.

That's your what.

Hmm.

And then the other thing is.

That a lot of people don't even think about.

I go, how are you gonna track your success?

And they go, what do you mean?

And I go, how are you gonna track your success?

And they just go, well, downloads.

And I go, okay.

I go, so your goal is advertising then?

'cause that's really when downloads count.

And they're like, well no, I'd like to monetize.

And I go, well give you an example.

In January my download numbers go through the roof.

'cause everybody and their brother is like, this is the

year I'm starting a podcast.

I've been talking about it for three years.

We're gonna start a podcast.

And in February, like every gym membership, uh mm-hmm.

The numbers are coming down, right.

They're, they're like, ah, it's a little more work than I thought.

But some of those people actually started their podcast and they'll

join the school of podcasting.

Mm-hmm.

So in February, I. My numbers, my membership numbers go up, but my

download numbers are going down.

Well, if I track my success by downloads, I'd be really depressed.

Yeah.

But I don't, I track my success on how many new members am I getting

for the school of podcasting.

Mm-hmm.

And I'm ecstatic because I'm like, okay.

And so you have to kind of ask yourself, how am I gonna track my success?

Because.

If it's, uh, Jen Briney does a show called Congressional Dish where she

actually reads the bills that go through Congress and explains them in English.

Wow.

And

her goal is to get people to vote different and she doesn't

care if it's left or right.

Just like these are the people that are doing things and our name with our

money and this is what they're doing.

And so, and, and what's great about that is that's information you can't get.

Any pla.

I mean you can get it, but nobody's gonna go through and read that

thousand page bill, but Jen will.

Yeah.

And

so consequently, that's valuable.

And she uses what's called the Value for Value model and she's just like,

Hey, this show doesn't have any ads.

'cause it's a political show.

I. That would be a nightmare.

'cause people will be, you need to cancel them.

'cause they don't think like I do.

And she's like, so if you found this valuable, would you mind

giving some of that value back?

And so people send her check, I send her a check every month.

I have it automated because that's valuable information for me.

So there is, that is as well.

But it's, it's tricky.

But I, I always go back to, you don't, you don't monetize a podcast.

You monetize an audience and so many people mm-hmm.

Start focusing on how am I gonna monetize?

Not how am I gonna get an audience?

Yeah.

And I'm like, because you can't monetize dust.

It just doesn't work.

So how, how can you, um, if you don't mind just talking more about

how do, how to monetize an audience?

Yeah.

There's, um, we, we mentioned, you know, selling your own stuff,

affiliate marketing ads, crowds, uh, funding donations, and then the

one that a lot of people overlook.

Is this, the relationships?

Hmm.

Right.

That you build with people.

I just got asked to, uh, and I think this is gonna happen.

I'm gonna be teaching a, a live, uh, kind of version of the School of Podcasting

to a bunch of people in Afghanistan.

Why be because of somebody I met?

They said, oh, I know the guy.

Go talk to him.

Mm-hmm.

And so that's that thing where.

I remember once I met, um, there was a famous kind of country singer back

in the seventies named Kenny Rogers.

He had a couple hits and I, uh, uh.

Remember the School of Podcasting had launched this true crime show.

She's a detective.

She'd been on TV and she goes, Hey, I'm, I'm doing like a, a podcast launch party.

Mm-hmm.

She goes, would you want to come?

So I, I drove to Nashville.

She goes, 'cause it's filled with other detectives.

And I'm like, okay, these guys are probably gonna want to do a podcast.

But I met, the guy's name was Kenny Rogers.

Mm-hmm.

And

I met his assistant.

And so I said, oh, we gotta get Kenny to do a podcast.

That would be amazing.

Well, I didn't realize at the time, yeah, he was pretty sick.

And it was nine months later, Kenny had already passed away and she called me

up, she goes, you probably don't remember me, but I was Kenny Rogers assistant.

I'm like, how do you forget Kenny Rogers' assistant?

Of course I remember.

She's like, I'm thinking starting a podcast now.

Hmm.

And so it is, it takes some patience, but everywhere I go, I'm planting little seeds

and

then eventually it pop up.

Um, I remember.

I did a book called Profit from Your podcast.

And in it I was, I did a lot of research again.

Mm-hmm.

And there

was an example where LegalZoom had jumped in and was sponsoring a pretty big show

and after a month they got nothing.

Like, just nothing at all.

And they were like, look, this is a bust.

Like, forget it, we want, you know, you can keep our money for the first month,

but we're pulling out, this is done, this is, this is not working for us.

And then at the end of the second month, they called them back and said,

okay, wait, hold, put it back in, put it back in, put it, 'cause it just, it

takes a while for people to hear those messages and to get them ingrained.

Um, there's the, uh, seven, have you ever heard of the Google 7 11 4 rule?

I just learned about this myself and, and, uh, and according to Google, they

need to hear seven hours of your content.

On, um, with 11 different touchpoint.

So that could be, you know, uh, 11 different episodes or things like that.

And then the four is four different platforms.

So that could be a podcast, it could be a blog post.

It could be a newsletter, it could be YouTube, whatever.

It, I had never heard of this.

Uh, I'd heard that, you know, they have to hear your message

multiple times, but somebody said, oh, that's the Google 7 11 4 rule.

And I was like, what?

What?

So.

It is one of those things to do.

Mm. And then the other thing that a lot of people really blow it

on, I, uh, I interviewed, uh, Jack from the Darknet Diaries.

It's a really interesting show.

Hmm.

He

does it in kind of an NPR style.

Hmm.

And he, but he's talking about hacking and, uh, he was on my show, he was

getting 300,000 downloads an episode.

And I was like, that's insane.

How did, how, wait, how are you doing that?

Hmm.

And he said, well, first things first.

He said, before I launched, I recorded a couple episodes and I gave it to people

that I trusted would tell me the truth.

Hmm.

And I

said, uh, did you listen to the whole thing?

Hmm.

If not, where did you stop and why?

And then number three was on a scale from one to 10.

How likely are you to share this with a friend?

And he said, if I got a seven or below, I went back to the drawing board.

He said, so I really knew that this was something that was

resonating with my audience.

And I'm like, okay.

And he goes, and then I just slowly, specifically and confidently

ask them to share the show.

And I go, what does that sound like?

And he goes, well, it might be something like, Hey, today we

talked about whatever the topic is.

Do you know somebody else that would like this topic?

If you could, could you do me a favor and just go to your phone,

you know, there's that little share button, that little arrow.

If you could share this with that one friend, boy, that

would just mean the world to me.

Or, or you could just tell them to go to my website@darknetdiaries.com.

Uh, he goes and they're gonna think you're great.

'cause you know, you're sharing this awesome information and

you must think it's awesome 'cause well, you're still here.

And he goes, and I get to grow my audience and we both win.

Mm-hmm.

And I was like, okay.

And I go, uh, so I got that, uh, you know, ask your audience to

share, make sure it resonates.

I go, great.

What else do you do?

And he goes, uh, that's it.

And I went and he goes, now realize, you know, he'd been doing this a while.

And

it is a case where like the first year you're kind of finding your voice.

The second year you found your voice and you're actually

starting to grow your audience.

And by the third year, your audience is starting to share it.

So it's starting to finally grow on its own.

But then I, I, I was like, that's a really interesting insight.

So then I started listening to other people do that.

And especially when we go to promote ourselves, we just drop the ball

so bad because we feel salesy.

Like, ooh, you know?

And I had a, a friend of mine, I'd met her, I'd known her about six

months, a helper, launch a podcast.

About six months later, I'm catching up with her and I've listened to

every episode she does, and I, I said, Hey, how's the podcast going?

She goes, oh, you know, numbers are going up.

It's slowly growing.

This is great.

She says, but, uh, I'm not getting any, I'm not getting any speaking gigs.

And

I go, I haven't known you that long, but either off the record or on the

record, I've never heard you mention

that

you do speaking because then she goes, yeah, I just, I just spoke to a bunch

of high school kids in the Bronx and I go, okay, I don't remember you.

She goes, oh, I, I just feel salesy when I do that in the show.

And I go, oh, well I get that.

I go like a used car salesman.

And she goes, yes.

And I go, that's selling you a bucket of bolts.

And she goes, absolutely.

And I go, so your show is a bucket of bolts?

And she goes, no, I spend like 13 hours on that thing.

And I go, and it helps people, right?

Mm-hmm.

And she goes, yeah, I sure hope so.

Hmm.

And I go, then why are you stopping yourself?

From helping people.

And she went, oh, you've done this before.

You're good.

And I, I go, look, this is all you have to do.

I said, your next episode started off with, Hey, I was talking at a high school

in the Bronx and this young man came up to me and asked me this question.

I.

And

I thought, boy, that would be a great topic for a podcast.

So that's what we're gonna talk about today.

I go, there you go.

It doesn't have to be this giant, this Sunday, Sunday,

Sunday kind of advertisement.

I said, you'll hear me.

And I don't even do it like on purpose, like, Ooh, I should

say I was working with a client.

I just.

I'm telling a story and I'm like, I was working with a client 'cause I wanna

keep their, you know, I wanna keep it, uh, any private information private.

I was working with a client, they did this and this is what happened.

I said, well, automatically people go, oh, he must do coaching

or consulting or something.

Mm-hmm.

And so we have to let people know.

And then I started paying attention.

And the people that do, and again, we feel kind of salesy.

So you get things like, hey, uh, you know, like you don't have to, but like,

maybe, I don't know if you want to like, I dunno, like you could, uh, you know,

tell somebody or some my website.com.

Okay, thanks, bye.

And I'm like, what?

What was that?

And so slowly, specifically, and confidently ask your audience to share.

Now that's, again, it's not a 10,000 download switch.

We all want that.

You know, uh, but, and there are things, there are a lot of podcast apps now you

can advertise in, you know, but that's, again, you better have something somewhere

in your show that's gonna generate income.

'cause otherwise you're, you're growing your audience, but for, for what?

What, you know, unless you just got money to burn.

Mm-hmm.

So,

yeah.

I, I really like what you're saying.

'cause I think the more natural it is to you when you're, when you're talking

on the mic, the easier it becomes.

And you automatically start so the audience gets to know you Yeah.

As, as well as you being able to give them value.

Yeah.

And, and it really is a matter of just being yourself.

Mm-hmm.

Uh,

I've known people that have tried, like, I, like right now I'm talking

maybe a little more animated than I normally do because I'm on a podcast.

Mm-hmm.

But you, you can't.

It, it, there are two things that make a great episode and one is the content.

Mm-hmm.

And the

other one is the delivery.

And so you could have amazing content, right?

Like you're not gonna believe what happened to this person that did such

and such, but if you deliver it like this and there's just no energy, and

I was worried that's not gonna work.

And likewise, you could be obnoxious sports guy and you're talking like,

wait till you hear what this does.

You know?

And you've got a $5,000 microphone.

You can have the best content and the best delivery.

But if you're just delivering drift from chat, GPT Hmm.

Eh, you know, I, uh, I was working with a client yesterday and they gave me

their show, and it's kind of a history and it's kind of a, a trivia show.

Hmm.

And

I said, I said, I always gauge this as what I call dinner party content.

I go, trivia is the stuff that you didn't know, but it's interesting

enough so that the next time you see somebody and they say.

Oh, uh, blah.

I'll just throw out David Hasselhoff for whatever reason.

And you go, you know what?

I didn't know about that guy.

I heard this on a pod.

I go, it has to be good enough for them to remember and interesting enough for

them to bring up at a dinner party.

And some of their trivia was like, you know, did you know that originally

their name was spelled like this?

And then the, you know, their manager spelled it wrong.

And so they've been using the wrong spelling since 20, you know, 1977.

And I'm like.

Okay.

That's interesting.

And it's trivia, but I don't know if I'm gonna go, Hey, did you know

their last name was spelled wrong?

It's, it's like, it's gotta be that kind of like, wow.

Interesting thing.

So yeah, it's, it is, it's content and delivery.

Hmm.

And this is where a lot of people go.

I. I don't have, you know, a radio voice and I go, that's actually a good thing.

Yeah.

Um, one of my friends, Todd Cochran will be the first.

Todd Cochrane kind of sounds like this.

His voice isn't super deep, and he's kind of up here, uh, Dr.

Dave, Dr. Dave talks like this.

Sounds like he's hoarse all the time, but this is the, he's like, nobody's

gonna listen to me, listen to his voice.

And I'm like, dude, the minute I hear you, I go, oh, that's Dr.

Dave.

Yeah.

It's distinctive.

And

so.

You know, if you can just be yourself.

Mm. That really comes through.

And there are times when I've had people that, you know, I'll say something and

it, it's so funny with words, how you can just, you know, rub people the wrong way.

Mm-hmm.

And I'm just like, Hey, I'm, I didn't mean to offend you, or I

didn't mean to do this or that.

And I'm like, you know, that wasn't my intention.

Here was my main point.

And I throw that at them and they either show me Grace or they

go, I'm not listening anymore.

And I'm like, well that's, there's a name for you.

And it's called, not my target audience.

Yeah.

So I like that, like that.

Dave, do you think there's a sweet spot between, um, personal voice and

brand messaging then for businesses?

Yeah, you have to be.

It's a kind of interesting, because I've seen companies start podcasts.

It kind of depends on, I guess, on what the, what the product is.

Hmm.

But

they come across then.

Look, I'm not a, I'm not a prude.

I grew up in public schools, so I've, I've heard all the curse words many

times backwards and forwards, and now they're coming outta the mouth of

politicians, which is kind of interesting.

Yes.

But if you're.

If your brand is f this and that, and your, it starts off with a

story about how you got hammered.

You know, like, is is this the guy I want running my finances?

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

It's like, so you have to kind of think about it that way.

Hmm.

And the other one is, it's your brand.

And so one of the things that I always talk about, especially with interviews,

um, again, the biggest benefit of an interview is a relationship.

Mm-hmm.

But also if you have somebody showing up.

They, they think it's, oh, a podcast is just like a Zoom call.

Well, no, it's not.

A podcast is meant for public consumption.

A Zoom call is meant for you and the other people on it.

Mm-hmm.

So if you're using your building laptop and it sounds like you're

recording in a fishbowl in a bathroom, it doesn't really matter.

It's just for the people on the meeting.

And so that's where I, I, I scratched my head.

They finally got it.

But there was a show that talks about advertising.

Especially advertising and audio and their first two months.

And I was like, okay, they're new, you know?

I even sent out to them, I'm like, Hey, here's, here's how you can fix your audio.

But they kept talking about how important audio is and they

sounded absolutely horrible.

And I was like, your message is mixed here.

You're saying, you know, the chief audio officer needs to take care of this.

And I'm like, and yet, and every time he brought somebody in from his company, I.

Again, they were using the build in laptop mic or a microphone that they didn't

know how to use, and I just said a, I'm gonna be listening to this show anyway.

If you'd like, I'll be your editor and I can make it sound so

like, you're not in a bathroom.

Yeah, I said or be, here's a, you know, a $90 microphone that can fix this.

Hmm.

So I think that's part of it too.

It it is your brand.

And I found this out.

I, I used to do a weight loss show.

Hmm.

And I found a guru and I really wanted her on the show.

And so we set it up and she's in the middle of the desert in Arizona.

It's really, really hot.

It's a hundred and some degrees.

And I said, uh, hey, is there any chance you can turn your air

conditioning off during the interview?

And she said, absolutely not.

I'm in the middle of the desert.

Uh, and I said, okay.

Uh, I tell you what.

I said, let's just be quiet for 10 seconds.

I said, I just wanna record your air conditioner.

Hmm.

So we

did, and this was a, while it, today it probably would've worked, but

this was, you know, 10 years ago.

And in theory, you're supposed to be able to record noise and say, okay, software.

Take just that noise and remove it from the recording.

And it did, but it really made it sound like she was in a tin.

Can it just, she might as well just been talking like this, Hey

Dave, it's great to be on the show.

And I was like, and I, it was one of those where you're like, should I put this out?

Hmm.

And I was like, well, you can understand her.

You know, you can, and I put it out and woke up the next day to

four emails going, what was that?

And it dawned on me.

I was like, even though I can point the finger and go, well,

she didn't have, it's her fault.

She wouldn't turn off her.

Like, nah, it's my brand.

I let it go through to my audience.

Yeah.

And so I've, I've had awkward conversations where

I had

a, a guest on once and I even did a pre-interview.

I said, Hey, I'm not, not sure we're a great fit.

Let's do a pre-interview.

So he comes on and I wanted to, to build that relationship 'cause

he's kind of a coach of coaches.

And I was like, Ooh, this would be a good person to know.

And he was talking about some stuff and running your business.

And he came on and the pre-interview was amazing.

I said, just don't forget your, your good microphone.

'cause he had a podcast.

He's like, great.

He shows up, um, didn't bring his good microphone.

And then like, two questions in, we're kind of going through, you know,

where I thought we were gonna go.

And he's like, Hey, just ask me about my story.

And I

go, what?

He goes, yeah, I know how the interview goes.

He goes, just, just ask me about my story.

And the, the answer that he was proposing is, the way you grow

your business was basically to have this guy's dad as your dad.

Well, that doesn't work for my audience.

And I listened to the interview later and I was like, this really doesn't have any

takeaways in it that my audience can do.

Yeah.

We can't all be adopted by this guy's dad.

So I called him back on the phone and, and I said, Hey.

I gotta tell you, I listened to the episode and I said, I

really appreciate your time.

And you know, we kind of changed gears there and started

talking about your story.

I go, your story's amazing.

I go, but in terms of what can my audience do with it?

I go, I'm not really the, I want to inspire people.

I'm assuming if you're awake, you're inspired, and you're ready to, to go.

And, uh, he was just like, and that's when I found out why

he wanted to be on my show.

His, his goal wasn't to, to provide value to my audience.

His goal was to get me as a client, right?

And he pushed so hard, and it was so funny because he was like,

well, I can double your income.

And I'm like, well, okay, you got my attention.

He's like, well, first thing you have to do is double your price.

And I was like, okay.

Uh, you know, thanks for the, the math there, genius.

But uh, you know, I think I could have figured that out.

And in the end I just said, well, we could either.

Rerecord the interview and kind of go where I wanted to go.

I said, but I, I can't put it out the way it is.

And I said, I just wanted to, to give you that opportunity.

Mm-hmm.

And he just kept, he, he was like, so you're telling me, he goes, I can help you

make more money and you still don't want.

And I'm like, no, I got your card.

I go, I'm, I'm kind of good right now, but no thanks, you know.

Uh, so it was awkward.

It was really awkward 'cause I'm a guy that wants everybody to like me and I'm

kind of politely rejecting this person.

But in the end, I always kind of see, uh, myself as, uh, as a goalie,

uh, in, in football slash soccer.

And if somebody tries to feed me stuff.

That's gonna get to my audience and it doesn't deliver value.

Hmm mm-hmm.

Not on my watch.

Sorry.

Yeah.

In fact, when I interview, when I do interviews, I listen to the question

and then I listen to the answer.

And the first thing I listen for is, did they answer the question?

Hmm.

Because sometimes you'd be like, Hey, what's your favorite pizza?

And they go, uh, it's three 15.

Okay, you gave me an answer.

But you didn't answer the question.

Yeah.

You know, and so I I, and if, if the value, if the answer

doesn't deliver value, the question and the answer go away.

And people are like, well, what if they come back later

and listen to the interview?

I go, I, we a, we don't, 'cause we were here.

I don't need to come back.

I come back and I'll listen to the, the how was I introduced and how,

what did they say about me at the end.

Yeah.

But

I mean, I was here.

I don't have to listen to the interview.

But it, it is all about, um, protecting your brand.

Yeah.

And

making sure you always deliver value.

I like that.

Thank you so much.

Um, Dave, I'm conscious of time.

I had lots of other questions I wanted to ask, but I'm just

gonna, and all my answers

have been an hour long.

I know.

I'm sorry.

No, not at all.

This has, this has been really good.

Um, but I have one, um, that I, I was really curious to know.

Yeah.

If podcasting disappeared tomorrow, how would you channel your love

for teaching and storytelling?

Boy, that would be sad.

That would be very, very sad.

It

would be sad.

But how would you do it?

How would you get around that?

Well, I mean, there's always YouTube.

Mm-hmm.

As long as I don't say the wrong word and they pull me off.

Yeah.

Um, I, I guess probably a newsletter, right?

There's always newsletters.

There's YouTube.

Um, I mean, before there was podcasting, I was posting audio on a website.

Which looks and smells a lot like a podcast.

It's, it's, there's no syndication to it, so you have to come

to my website to hear it.

Um, that would be, it's hard to, 'cause I've been doing it, I didn't even

realize it for a, for a long time.

Yeah.

In April, I went over 20 years.

Wow.

So it's just a part of my life that I just go, you know, and people

go, when are you gonna retire?

And I go, I don't know.

As long as I can talk and type.

You know, and think, I, I don't see me, me quitting anytime soon.

Um, I am, and it's weird because before my creative juices were,

were kind of, uh, fulfilled.

I was a musician, so I was in a band and I really enjoyed that.

But something's gotta let me, I I, I got a lot of creativity.

Yeah.

So I'd have to

find some way of it.

And, um.

I, I wonder sometimes because they, they keep talking about different things in

podcasting, it's never gonna go away.

I'm just worried that big companies like Spotify and YouTube are

really trying to control it.

And when, again, being an old musician, I remember when my band had a CD and we

couldn't get it in any store because, well, you've gotta go through these big

companies and they were, you know, you couldn't get on the radio because you've

gotta go through all these gatekeepers.

And so I get worried sometimes that.

If we let these big companies take over and we have to go through them, well,

either A, the only way to do that is they take a big, giant chunk of whatever money

you are able to make, or they just go, no.

And that's the one thing I love about podcasting is anybody

can do it and you get instant.

I mean, what really hooked me in back in 2005 is I'd taken a blog

that I was doing for musicians.

I turned it into a podcast and within about a month and a half, I got a

voicemail from Nuremberg, Germany.

And I'm in the middle of nowhere, Ohio, and Michael Van Lar from

Nuremberg, Germany comes over my voicemail and I was like, wait, what?

I'm like, somebody found me on the other side of the planet and they like my show.

So that's

amazing.

Yeah.

Hopefully that'll never happen, but I, I'll find something to, to

be creative and get the word out.

That's awesome.

That's awesome.

Dave, thank you so much.

This has been such fun and really appreciate you sharing your

wisdom and your insights with us.

Oh,

thanks for having me.

I'm happy.

Uh, it's my pleasure.

Happy to be here and thanks again for the opportunity.

Not a problem.

But before we wrap up, if someone wants to learn more about what you do and wanna

get started with the School of Podcasting, where should they go to do that?

Yeah, the website is just schoolofpodcasting.com.

If you're thinking of starting a podcast, you can go to

schoolofpodcasting.com/checklist.

And I've got a, uh.

Free checklist.

'cause a lot of times people go to start a podcast and like I used to work at a

Media host and people would buy a media host before they had media to host.

Mm-hmm.

And so they would spend six months on, you know, paying

for something they didn't need.

So it's not just about what steps to take, but what order to, uh, take them in.

Mm-hmm.

And that's at, uh, schoolofpodcasting.com/checklist.

That's awesome.

That's really helpful to know because sometimes it can feel

like, um, quite overwhelming.

Yeah.

Coming into something like this and just having a step-by-step

process is so helpful.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

So thank you for that.

We'll make sure that all those links are in the show description.

Thank you.

And to those listening, thank you for being here.

If this conversation got you thinking differently about the role the podcasting

could play in your business, I hope it's given you more than an idea.

I hope it's given you permission to go for it.

So thanks for listening, and bye for now.