Laura Kimble, PhD, RN, FNP-C, FAHA, FAAN is Associate Dean for Academic Operations, Nell Hodgson Woodruff School of Nursing, Emory University. In this episode Laura talks about how her upbringing helped shape the type of leader she is and the importance of negotiation skills in leadership. Laura also shares some words of wisdom such as "it's good to have clarity about who you are and what you bring to the institution".

Resources

• Cormac McCarthy, The Road
• Narnia Books by C. S. Lewis | Narnia.com
• Harry Potter books
• Home - American Academy of Nursing Main Site

Hello, listeners. Welcome to Educational Landscapes: Lessons From Leaders. On today's episode, we are going to learn from Laura Kimble. Welcome to the show, Laura.

Oh, thank you very much. It's really great to be with you and your audience.

Wonderful. So to get us going, what is your educational leadership title or titles?

In the nursing school, I'm the Associate Dean for Academic Operations, is my official title.

And what does that mean unofficially?

It's an interesting story. I moved into this role last August and about a year ago, we had our a senior associate dean for academic advancement, which is essentially the dean of the faculty, had retired and moved out of her role, Dr. Sandy Dunbar. She had been in the role for about 10 years and a fabulous, fabulous leader. So, knew Emory and the Emory faculty in and out and everything about faculty affairs. She's just excellent at everything.

We recruited a really great leader from Oregon, Dr. Kim Jones, to become the associate dean for academic advancement. She came in July and I covered the role until Dr. Jones could join us, but once she did, though, it became evident that it really took two of us to do what Sandy did. So, because it's interesting to me, I think about the leadership, about how you really do grow in the role and I think what you take on initially, that it's almost like it changes you over time and it really, I think, changes you in a good way.

Sometimes the change is hard, but it expands you, expands your ability. You think about Sandy having that 10 years to really learn her role and then to come in and someone that I didn't really do much of her role even though I was in our Office of Academic Advancement. I held the role of assistant dean. So anyway, Kim came and then we realized, oh my goodness, to really get the work done and to kind of move forward with the initiatives, we split it.

So I'm more of the detailed day-to-day operations person. And then Kim is very much the lead, the kind of face to the university and the outside strategic lead. She's very strong researcher and just a very good strategic thinker. And so I'm kind of the detail person and she's much more of the strategic and it's worked out really, really well.

I think that is one of those cases where best of both worlds, I think you always need a strategic person and an implementer working hand in hand.

That's exactly right. I do. And it's really rare I think for someone to have both of those skills in one person. I think actually Sandy Dunbar did have that, but I think that's really rare, and particularly the growth that we've had in faculty and students, it was a good time to think about because it was very, very busy with one person doing it. For sure.

I can only imagine. So thinking about, as you said, your role involves a lot of the day-to-day operations, so what do you do, if somebody was to follow you for a week or a month, what would they see?

So I see it's a lot of very involved in the day-to-day implementation of what faculty do, so faculty in their role. So it's sort of like if you think about faculty from across a trajectory of the life span of a career, from the time that they're recruited into Emory School of Nursing until the time that they retire and leave or transition to a different position. And we often have people that leave our faculty that are become deans and associate deans and some things like that because they grow so much.

So I'm involved in the search committee, setting up requisitions within HR, and then helping create contracts and working with senior staff who send the contracts out, certainly a part of that. And then once they're hired, helping oversee and making sure that they're onboarded correctly. So following with that and the faculty retreat and then also assignments.

So we have assistant deans that make assignments, but sort of like that 30,000 foot view of our people optimally assigned according to their rank and track. So I do that. I deal with annual reviews and performance reviews and luckily we don't have a many performance issues, but I think there and then a lot of mentoring, more so I think of just kind of working with junior faculty in their careers and me working one-on-one with people, but then also just facilitating the mentoring processes in the school and assuring that people get connected to the right mentors and the right resources, and then even the retirement part of it.

Then there's a lot of, I think we have a very matrix structure, so there's a lot of working across units too with our Office of Education, our Office of Nursing Research, just to make sure that just our school really moves forward in the way that it should. Yeah. So it's busy, but it's really, really fun to do.

That's wonderful. And I'm sure it's really great in that kind of role to see that trajectory, to see somebody from when they first started through to their promotions.

Oh wow. Yeah, I mean there's nothing like it. I mean I think that if you're the kind of leader, which I think we'll talk about this later, but I think to really be involved with faculty and to lead faculty, you really have to be the sort that you're very, very happy for the accomplishments of others. You have to be able, because I feel like with me, I sort of coach Olympians. I don't really consider myself an Olympian, but oh my gosh, there are Olympian champions all over the school of nursing. And so part of it is saying, "yes, keep training, you're going to get that gold medal".

And then to see people that do, they get big HRSA grants, Dr. Quinn Fan, who started as a junior. And we see that in the tenure track too. So it's amazing when you see the faculty really get those gold medals and you think, oh wow. Or just other recognitions, it's something.

That's wonderful. And I think about the part where you were saying, well, I may not be a champion or gold medalist, but people say some of the best coaches in sports are the ones who really see that big picture and can really guide people. So you are in an important role.

Yeah, maybe we see talent and just like... but yeah, because you have to let people shine and I think that's where it's really wonderful when that happens.

Yeah. So given the range of things that you do, what skills do you use in order to get your roles done?

So mine I can think is really interesting. I mean, I think I certainly attention to details. So I'm sort of a detail person, so I don't mind getting in the weeds and I have to be careful about staying there because as a leader you can't and being able to delegate some of the detailed things that maybe I can do and enjoy doing, but yet probably it's better to delegate so I can stay up more at the leadership role.

But I would say for me, probably the skill that I bring to the setting that I think is probably one of my strongest is I love negotiation, so in diplomacy. So I think if I had had a different career, I love nursing, it probably would've been like a diplomat or negotiator, like peace treaties and things like that. So I really kind of keeping the peace. And so it's kind of funny, I grew up with five children in our family.

We had kind of a small house and my sister clearly remembers the time that I helped her negotiate, being able to shave her legs with my parents. And I went in and kind of made this argument about what... she's four years younger than me, but she was very thankful for negotiation skills at that point.

And so I've brought that to bear a lot in my role of just trying to find an equilibrium, find a peace, because I think ultimately if you have an organization where there's constant flux or people can't work together in teams and they're really great people too, it's more of an issue of just understanding what the issues are and working across.

So I probably say communication, negotiation, I think just being very nice and respectful goes a long way. And so I think almost those are more important than, I hope I'm intelligent in my work and can problem solve and things like that. But I feel like the day-to-day things are more in those sort of what some people might say soft skills, but I think they're critical when you're working with a bunch of really, people who are very busy and a lot of pressure.

Absolutely. And I think there's a lot of us who realize after we take on certain roles, how important those negotiation skills are. So I'm glad you got to use them early and constantly.

Thank you. Thank you.

So as you think about where you're at now, what was your journey that led to this current role?

So it's kind of interesting because actually, so I have been over a PhD program many, many years ago. Actually, Emory's like an interim PhD program director, but that would've been a couple of decades ago. So it was a long time. And so really my background coming in to... I was at Emory for 11 years as a researcher and tenured faculty, and then I left for a while and I was an endowed chair.

So really the way that I viewed myself was much more of a researcher and more contributing as an individual, I guess, to the institution. And then when I came back to Emory, this is my sixth, finishing up my sixth year, I came in as an assistant dean for clinical advancement, which was sort of leading the clinical track faculty, but not so much supervising as more of, I think a mentoring role and some things like that.

So I don't know that I was necessarily looking for a leadership role. I know some people kind of do that and they really sort of say, I want to be a leader, but I think mine has been driven a lot more about really liking working with people. I just generally really like people. I like working with them. I like different people, I like different personalities. I'm someone, it's very hard to insult me or you have to hit me with over the head, so I don't take a whole lot personally. And so I think because of that, some people that they say, oh, it must just go over my head because I don't even do that.

So I saw this I think as an opportunity to do really work with people. And then when the associate dean opportunity came up, and I feel like it was very... I mean I'm very appreciative of dean, our dean of kind of saying, look, we think you have strength in this area. We'd like to see you continue on in the leadership role at the associate dean level. I was very grateful for that.

So I think it was just kind of going where my areas of strength and interests were, and it led to leadership versus some sort of planful thing. So I don't know what that says about me. It's more about the work than the role, this big master plan.

One of the things I'm learning in from doing these interviews is how many people don't have a master plan.

Okay.

Yes. And so it really is, it's about people recognizing skills and going, I think you'd be amazing for this.

Interesting. Yeah. So, oh, that makes me feel better. So it's kind of about the work and loving the work. And I think Emory's great too. I mean, I think what our school does is really... nursing is great work. I think we try to do good work and I think our faculty are really great.

So it's just the opportunity, like I said, to work with people that are just excellent. It's just something we're excellent people everywhere and it really helps it. It's something that challenges you every day and it makes you better. I feel like I'm a better person because of the faculty and the people that I interact with that are so smart, kind, have great values, want to make a difference in the world and lives of students in a really positive way. So they have a lot of great character and quality.

Absolutely. That's wonderful. As you think about, you've been in the role a little bit, what do you wish you knew before stepping into this role?

Yeah, you know that's a really great question. I think one of the things I don't think that anybody really sat me down and said at a leadership role, I think it is a lot about the institution. So it's sort of thinking more broadly and about what can we do to move Emory forward. So it's like your career is really not about you anymore. It's really about... because you're committed to the school of nursing or the institution, you're making that commitment when you take a leadership role. So it's not about you anymore.

And so it's sort of having that lens and I think in maybe a deliberate way, I think I had that because I'm very committed, but I think it's sort of that deliberate lens of... and what may be good for the institution, it may be hard for maybe some individuals if you're going a certain direction, but you need to go that direction. So I think that's one of them. I think another one is probably just, I'm amazed at I guess conversations and things where maybe something, a conversation or something that occurred. You had no idea how important that interaction was, but then six months later you learned that it is.

So there's some sense in which of kind of like being in the moment at the time is always really important that you're sort of hearing, trying to get all the facts, trying to understand. So you can't be an autopilot and just be nodding your head and somebody's telling you something and you're thinking, I'm tired, I'm just not following what they say. But they're sort of saying, no, I've really... someone's telling me something I've got to, can't fake it. I got to be there in the moment if I don't understand what they're saying.

So I think that's part of it. And then also I think there are multiple perspectives because I think I tend to be very empathetic. So someone may come and say, here's my story, and it sounds like, oh, this is awful. And then, you get another perspective and it's like, oh wow, the context here, it's a little different. So I think it's sort of knowing that any situation has multiple perspectives and context and so it's sort of taking a step back and not immediately responding, but just thinking it through. So probably those are the big things that I think I kind of knew them, but I think just probably could have known them in a stronger way probably.

Very important. Very important. Especially as you said, because your role involves so much people-ing as I call it.

Yeah, that's right. And so in taking the time, and also I guess too, I think I knew this going in, but that most decisions are not a 911 decision. They don't have to be made immediately. And so I think there's some sense in which sort of taking a step back and waiting to send the email to make a decision to, until you have all the information is always really wise.

Indeed. So given this amazing range of things that you do, what continuing professional development do you do to keep up with the needs of your role?

So this is kind of an interesting thing, and I'm just going to admit it. I know a lot of friends that listen to a lot of podcasts like business podcasts and people reading their own leadership books about the 10 steps to being a great leader. And I have to admit, I don't do much of that. I try to learn from people around me. I mean, certainly try to go to conferences and stay abreast at the academy and what are important things for nursing and what are the main issues for nursing. And certainly I think our dean is really great about, she's just right on the pulse of nursing and probably 20 years ahead.

So I've listened to what she says a whole lot because I feel like she has it. I think for leadership in my position, sometimes I feel like even my own mental health and wellness and balance probably brings more important qualities to the role in enacting the role than maybe listening to a podcast of a leadership book. So I'm more likely to re-listen to Harry Potter or the Chronicles of Narnia, or I like someone like Cormac McCarthy, The Road.

So I've listened to a lot of just books on tape if I'm walking. And so I think I try to immerse myself in good literature and more, I don't know, learning from maybe really good people, good writers, than really doing a whole lot of reading business books and things like that.

I love that realness and I loved, loved, loved Chronicles of Narnia when I was growing up.

Yeah.

So many stories and lessons from there.

That's right.

Even if they are not a leadership book, there are always lessons in everything.

That's right. And I think there's lessons, even some of the books, Cormac McCarthy or, I mean he's a really good author, but I just think people that you can learn what to do, what not to do, you know, can hear and just the stories of leaders.

Indeed. So what advice would you give to someone interested in doing the same type of leadership role as you have?

Yeah, I think I would just say it's good to have clarity about who you are and what you bring to the institution. I do think when you are in a leadership role, certainly it does take time away from your own personal scholarship sometimes. And so I think to have clarity about that and what you're going to do to keep your own scholarship up and going is really good. And it could be working on your own, it could be working with mentees, but I think keeping that clear in your mind, then I think being very clear of your contributions so that when you are surrounded by these Olympians and people, because I think that's the thing in the role you're always going to be. And I think particularly a place like... well, I think it would be anywhere really.

I think you have to have a good sense of self because there's always going to be people around you that are smarter than you. I always felt like that I probably worked really hard and then now I have somebody that I work with that works circles around me. I don't know how that individual does it. I'm just like, unbelievable. So it's like, no, that one fell too. You have to figure out what you bring and then realize that that's enough, that we need all different kinds of individuals in leadership roles and to bring multiple perspectives.

And actually, and it's sort of back to diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging. You need diverse skillsets, diverse people to really make the institution strong or your school strong. And I guess that would be one thing I would say I wish I had a better understanding of diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging work as well. And I would say that I think is something to just cultivate that, to educate yourself on what you can do to cultivate.

I think that that is also a really good thing to prepare if you're interested in a leadership role, because I think it's so critical to the success of any place. So if you're not able to help individuals feel like they're a part of the institution that they belong, that they feel like they have a place, they feel like they have a voice, all of those kinds of things, I think that that's really important to build those skills. And luckily there's a lot of toolkits and things that you can read and all those things that to really help individuals build that skillset.

So important.

Yeah.

Thank you. So thinking about the role you're in and a bit about that background of how this role came about, how do you view succession planning?

Well, that's kind of an interesting thing. I think succession planning is really important. And I think it begins with realizing that learning effective delegation is I think kind of critical. And I feel like sometimes, and I'm just speaking for myself, there's a sense in which, maybe it's a control thing or maybe you, it's you hate to put work on other people. I've always kind of been that way. It doesn't matter who they are, I don't want to do that.

But what I've come to learn though is in delegating, you help individuals build their own skillset, right? So I would say succession planning is about delegating to others, but supporting them along the way so that they can learn various things. So I had to jump in and learn mine, and that was a challenge. It was a challenge, I learned a lot. So I think to the extent that you can do that in really... but sometimes though the succession plan is not really clear and I think sometimes you don't have that.

So if the circumstances don't permit succession planning, I think in that regard, just to really support the person and be willing to do sort of a wraparound until they learn various aspects of the job or the position. But I think if you can have it's very, very good.

Wonderful. And I really appreciate that perspective around delegating, because I know I'm also somebody who goes, no, I don't want to disturb anybody, I'll just do it. But there is, as you said, there's so much power in delegating and giving somebody else the opportunity to do something so that they gain an understanding.

That's right. Because then they are prepared to move into roles and they feel good about it. But I think it's all in that delegation with support and appropriate support is I think the key.

Absolutely. So what contributed to your biggest successes thus far?

I think I was really privileged to have wonderful mentors. I think I had mentors that were very dedicated to me, they were very smart, they were willing to guide me. And when I say dedicated, just really, really committed to me to spend time. And so I would say that mentorship to me is really, really key to have someone who can guide you. And I think even in the role that I currently have, and particularly I guess if research successes in terms of grant funding and everything, definitely was mentorship and really great individuals.

I think growing up the way I did has helped with my successes. I think I'm very grateful for the family that I grew up in. My parents really insisted that we treat each other well and that the kids, we treated them respectfully, but it wasn't in a very autocratic kind of way, but it was just really a kind way, just be kind to each other. That's all we want. And so I think we grew up really close as siblings. My brothers and sisters are some of the nicest people you'd ever meet, and we got along.

So I think that of kind of just kindness. So I would just say growing up in an environment where really being kind and respectful, making the right choice, integrity. And I know that at my dad's funeral when we were bringing up the fact that one time my father... this would've been back in the early 60s when my brothers were young, had gone to a laundromat and they were going to get a candy bar. And when they got one. Two came out and my two brothers were going to share it.

And my father actually didn't let them eat the second one. He put it back up there because he said, we did not pay for that. So because we didn't pay for it, we're going to have to share the one we got. And then my brother subsequently was working in high school for a store where he was supposed to make the night deposit and he went to a bank and found a bag of money. But the thing was, he said it never entered his mind to ever take that money. He reported it and everything, but he said the reason why, because he remembered my dad had said, we're not taking that, it's not ours. And it's that kind of instilling sort of values that I carry with me still. It's like 50 years later, 60 years later.

So I think that it's those kind of life experiences, early life experiences, they stay with us, those life lessons. So I'm really grateful for those life lessons for sure.

I love that, especially as I think about our earlier talk, and I can totally hear how the life lessons play such an important role in the negotiating, in the perspective taking, in the empathy. So wonderful that you had that opportunity. So as you think about what you've done to date, what are or were your biggest growth opportunities?

I think probably for me, maybe it is, I've tended to operate most of my career on a one-on-one mentoring people. And I think one of my areas of growth, I would say is scaling up some of the ways that I work with others, but to bigger groups. Sometimes that strategy, strategic... that's how I say it, it's like how do you scale up to larger groups. That's an area of growth for me of just how to do that.

And I think the other probably part is just managing, it's one thing to be responsible for yourself, sort of your one-on-one for a career, but when you're responsible for a larger group in the institution, it's sort of like how do you manage that extra responsibility in a way that you thrive on that? So I think I'm a very overly responsible person. I always have been. So it's sort of that responsibility. I take it very seriously. And yet I have individuals that I work with that literally they thrive on that. They thrive on, that's a new challenge I'm taking that on.

So I think for me, it's sort of thriving in an environment where you have more responsibility. How do you accept that and say, wow, I'm going to learn and grow from it and I'm getting better with it. But I would say that's just another area of growth for me.

Absolutely. We are all lifelong learners.

Right.

So as you think about your career to date and all you've done, what do you love most about your work and what you do?

Oh, the people by far. Yeah. Yes, working with people. I do love the profession of nursing. I do love that. But I do think just getting to know people, working with them, helping them grow in their careers, that to me is the most fun part of it. I also enjoy teaching a whole lot, I don't get as much opportunity to do that. But I also think that in teaching, there's a lot of that too. So I taught statistics for many, many years. So really loved healthcare, applied statistics to kind of healthcare. And so I enjoyed really working with students as well. So sort of had the same perspective about them too. Just being kind, respectful and really never had any, I mean, I just love my students. I felt like they really... it was just really a blast and just a privilege to be able to teach. So I kind of feel the same way, just really working with people.

Wonderful. And to build on that, and I will add a little disclaimer. As somebody who got a master's in statistics, it makes me smile when somebody talks about teaching statistics and loving it.

Yeah, yeah, yes, we can have our convention in a phone booth. Because there's not that many. My statistics teacher, he said, well, that they held their conventions in phone booths. People probably don't know what those are now, but.

True. But I appreciate you, I appreciate that. So overall, as you reflect on your experiences to date, what would you say your passions are around education? Or what would you say your education philosophy is?

I would say if you can help students love to learn and that they in the learning process can feel like that they've gained mastery in something that they can. So I think nursing particularly, there was a time in our nursing history where nursing education was somewhat demoralizing. It was sort of like you wanted to weed people out. It was very, very hard. And even the nursing program that I went to was very, very challenging. And a lot of people were weeded out unnecessarily.

So to me, I think education is really about empowerment or just individuals really feeling good about learning, good about mastering content, feeling like that the whole being in class. And it was very worthwhile to them. It was a good use of their time. And also that they in that process felt very valued and respected. I think it's just really important, whether it's students, faculty, staff, in my view here in the nursing school, I think Robin, who's our, I don't know what you would call her, the staff that runs a sweeper and just cleans, she should feel just as valued and respected as the dean.

I mean, I really truly feel that way that everybody, no matter what they do, their role, students, faculty, administration, and all should feel highly valued and respected because they deserve that. They are contributing. And just seeing her every day contributes to my day to be able to see Robin, talk to her. And so I guess that's my philosophy. If you have an educational environment where that is happening, I think then it's a thriving place of learning.

I really love that because it shows that learning happens in different ways and different aspects not just in a classroom or a lab.

No, no. And I think you can't do it if you're in an environment where other things besides that are going on. If you're in a space where you don't feel respected and so you're just like there, I've got to be there. I just think it's really important to have a really good just environment for learning overall.

Thank you. So important indeed. So I know we spent a lot of time talking about your career and work and all of that, but you are more than your role. So what are some things you do outside of work to help you maintain joy in life and practice?

Yeah, so I really love walking outside. And I have done some running when I was younger. And so sometimes I'll set goals where a few years ago I did a half marathon that was kind of a walk run, I mean mostly walk. So I was the last person to finish, but I did finish. So I listened to a lot of music and books on tape. But again, more books that are classics. And I like a lot of children's literature. So I listen to children's books. I like a lot of music. So I like all kinds of music, but I tend to kind of gospel and I would say my faith tradition is more Christianity. So I listen to Christian music. I really like that.

Also in the summer I like to mow the grass. And so I'm thinking like why, I don't know. But I enjoy getting out there. And we have kind of a hilly yard and we have just a regular push mower. And so I like something that's really kind of physical and you accomplish that. So that in the summer I enjoy. And I enjoy, have a really great husband and love being with him and spending time with him. And we have a son that's an adult now.

So I would just say life is great. And I do think I work a lot, but I think it's so important... that would be another thing I would just say is that I'm not sure across the longevity of my career that I've had the work-life balance that probably I should have had. And I think it's really important. And for me, I think the exercise and also sleep. I think I went without sleep way too much when I probably should have said, look, I'm going to go to bed. And so if I were talking to myself, Laura 25 years ago or whatever, or 30, I would say, go to bed. So, no need to stay up all night. These things will... it'll wait. But the exercise and sleep are big.

Very important. Very important. Indeed. I don't function very well on little sleep. I have learned.

Yeah, yeah, that's right. And it's worse the older you get. But I think for me, I could function and just because you can function on four hours of sleep a night doesn't mean that you should. Right? So it's kind of like, yeah.

So those were my core questions and I love that you had a little last bit of advice for past you and future people who are educators or education leaders. Any other last words of wisdom before we wrap up?

I would say the only other one I would say in terms of work-life balance would be to not feel guilty about time spent with your children. Because I think one of the things a lot of times is that sometimes we hear from faculty who are really trying to get tenured and they feel this really tension between trying. And I've never talked to somebody that regretted saying I regretted going to that ballgame. I regretted I should have. I've never ever heard that. And I think we've heard that people say that in all different kinds of spheres of life. But I do think, and I think the other thing I would say is that sometimes you can let work intrude so much that you can almost like, and I've said this as sort of not be present in your own life.

So if you're fine, you're at something and I would... you know, you would Multitask a whole lot. And I think the multitasking is good, but there's some point in which you want to be present. And so it's like sometimes you may have to say, despite worrying about this grant or getting this course taken care of or something like that, to say, in this time when I'm talking to my child or talking to my husband or talking to my partner or whatever I'm doing that I'm going to be present. And so be with them because I just think academia generally can be very consuming. It's all consuming. It can be. And some people are more prone to that than others. And so if you're like that, you have to kind of purposefully say, wait a second, and just rebalance. So that would be just my other last word of wisdom.

Very wise words. And we thank you for being present with us today.

Thank you. It was really great speaking with you.

Thanks.