The shelters are overcrowded. This is a sad reality. And these animals are there at no fault of their own. Part of the problem is when individuals purchase animals without researching or learning about the traits of the breed or the individual dog and end up with a pet that is not compatible with their lifestyle.

Today's guest, Elizabeth Menegon, is the creator of Hands 2 Paws, an app that helps individuals browse animals that may be a better fit based on the qualities of the dog instead of just aesthetics. We also discuss the dangers of purchasing from back yard breeders, puppy mills, pet stores, and online services.

We will always believe in Adopt Don't Shop, but for those with specific needs that must purchase a dog, please shop responsibly.

Mentioned in this episode:

Keep it Humane Podcast Network

The Animal Welfare Junction is part of the Keep It Humane Podcast Network. Visit keepithumane.com/podcastnetwork to find us and our amazing animal welfare podcast partners.

Dr. G: Hi, and welcome to

the Animal Welfare Junction.

2

This is your host, Dr.

3

G, and our music is written

and produced by Mike Sullivan.

4

Today, we have our

guest, Elizabeth Menegon.

5

And she is going to be joining

us to talk about proper dog

6

selection in an attempt to keep

animals from ending up in shelters.

7

The shelter overcrowding epidemic

is huge, and animals are being

8

surrendered at no fault of their own.

9

So we are going to be discussing the

reasons why this happened, how we

10

can help keep this from happening

as consumers and as advocates.

11

So thank you so much,

Liz, for joining us today.

12

Liz Menegon: Thank you.

13

Thank you for allowing me

to share your platform.

14

Dr. G: To start, can you let our

listeners know about your history,

15

kind of your background, and what

brought you to where you are today?

16

Liz Menegon: Sure.

17

Well, it, it was a combination of things.

18

Um, I am an animal lover.

19

I always have had a dog since I was young.

20

, and during COVID, I was living in New York

City, and I realized that seeing people

21

coming out of their apartment buildings,

, people were owning dogs that were not

22

apartment dwelling creatures.

23

I was seeing, , an unimaginable number

of doodles, Labradoodle, Bernadoodles,

24

Corgis, miniature Australian Shepherds.

25

And I thought, God, don't people realize

that these are not really apartment dogs.

26

So, I went through COVID, and during

COVID your brain starts to go in odd

27

places because we were all quarantined.

28

And I started thinking about my own

life, and I do not have children.

29

And...

30

It was then that I decided

I need to do something.

31

I want to do something that

makes a difference in the world.

32

I didn't know what it was going to be

at the time, but I knew that I could

33

have gotten COVID and passed away.

34

Like everyone else.

35

I live three blocks from a hospital,

so all I heard all night long was

36

sirens and ambulances, and there's no

reason why that wasn't me, basically.

37

So I made the decision that, um, I

was going to move out of the city.

38

I had started a small business.

39

I am not from the dog industry.

40

Um, I'm actually make, my company

makes organic products, lip

41

balm, body balm, stuff like that.

42

So I wanted to grow that business.

43

So I left the city and this was in June.

44

Um, it'll be three years in June.

45

And in August, I was in my new apartment.

46

And I thought I saw three miniature

Australian shepherds from the lobby,

47

the garage and going up to my apartment.

48

And I thought, what is wrong with people?

49

And I think I was saying this really out

loud as I was opening my apartment door.

50

I think I swore too.

51

And I just basically said,

what is wrong with people?

52

Why aren't people buying the right dog?

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And I thought, well, there must be an app.

54

There must be something that helps people.

55

So I did some research.

56

It was on a Wednesday.

57

I'll never forget it.

58

And I started to scrub around on

the internet and what I found was

59

nothing that would actually help

you in the decision making process.

60

So it was then that I realized,

now I know what I want to do.

61

I want to create something that

is going to make a difference.

62

And that is an app that will

help people decide on the right.

63

Breed of dog and getting that

dog from the right source.

64

And I knew exactly what I wanted it to be.

65

I knew how I wanted it to function and

I knew what I didn't want it to do.

66

So I reached out to five developers

and only one developer said,

67

we must sign a nondisclosure.

68

Don't tell anyone your idea.

69

And it was like this, like a

top secret, like, Oh my God,

70

I was bursting at the seams.

71

Because he said, you've got a great idea.

72

So, that is how my journey started.

73

And it started with creating Hands

to Paws, which is the only mobile

74

app in the world, basically,

that does what my app does.

75

And it is now available in

Canada and also in the UK.

76

Dr. G: I think it's...

77

funny how animal advocacy takes

different forms and how you get the

78

calling at different moments, right?

79

You get that aha moment.

80

And it's like, Oh, this is

what I'm meant to do, right?

81

You're, you're doing something

completely unrelated to animal advocacy.

82

And then all of a sudden, you

see something that impacts you.

83

And most of us are animal lovers.

84

And you know, the research

shows that most people consider

85

animals as part of the family.

86

We're not seeing them as property,

even though in the law, They're

87

still unfortunately seen as property.

88

, we see them as members of our family.

89

But one of the sad realities is that a lot

of people are choosing these members of

90

the family without , any true education.

91

we were discussing about the fact that

people spend more time researching.

92

What kind of phone they're gonna

purchase or what kind of television

93

they're gonna get We're researching

in depth things that are material that

94

are, Short term type things and we

are not spending enough time and effort

95

researching A lifelong commitment,

like a 15, 17 year, , commitment.

96

Liz Menegon: Well, I think it, you

know, we live in a very, um, get it now.

97

Don't wait.

98

In your face.

99

Historically, pet stores.

100

Where people would buy a puppy

and the puppies are always in

101

the window and the pet stores are

always in a high traffic area.

102

It's to get you in there are

statistics that most puppy

103

purchases are impulse purchases.

104

So now you don't need to leave

your house and go walking down

105

the street after dinner and

saying, oh, there is a pet store.

106

Let's go in.

107

You are seeing pop up after pop up

Golden Doodle, Bernadoodle, Danadoodle

108

and you're inundated with advertising

and TikTok videos of these adorable

109

shaved Pomeranians and so visually

people are so overstimulated.

110

It's very easy to fall in love

with this adorable looking puppy.

111

Click on the website and buy a

dog, you can get that faster.

112

That's a faster transaction

than ordering a pizza.

113

And I think that is where educating the

public, um, needs to step in because it

114

is an impulse purchase, but it's so easy.

115

Dr. G: I know many people that

have said that they've gone

116

into a pet store to buy food.

117

Or to buy an item for a dog that they

already have and of course everybody

118

wants to look at the puppies that they

have and then they end up with a dog and

119

a $5,000 to $10,000 bill for an animal

that they were not even prepared to have.

120

And there are many reasons

why they'll do that.

121

They'll do it because

the puppy looks cute.

122

Sometimes they'll do it because

they look at this dog and the dog

123

looks sad or it looks sick and they.

124

They think of it as rescuing, and what

they're doing is inadvertently helping

125

continue the, the puppy mill industry.

126

Liz Menegon: Correct.

127

They fall in love.

128

You know, you'll never see an ugly puppy,

but there is methodology behind that.

129

It's like a grocery store.

130

Certain things are placed in certain

places for you to purchase and they

131

know when you walk into a puppy

store and you admire or a puppy

132

catches your eye, they're watching

your body language and then they'll

133

say, Oh, do you want to hold her?

134

That's the kiss of death phrase.

135

First of all, I tell people don't go

into a pet store that sells puppies.

136

You want to buy dog food.

137

Go on Amazon.

138

You want to stay out of pet stores.

139

I can't go into a pet store.

140

There's one near where I live because I'm

going to handcuff myself to the door and

141

tell them that these are all from puppy

mills and I'll end up getting arrested.

142

So, you know, me going in wouldn't

end up well for the, for the store.

143

But the first thing is, you Acknowledging

where these animals come from and then

144

staying away from where, where they are.

145

Dr. G: You know, we are big supporters of

pet stores that don't sell pets, right?

146

So, uh, facilities that sell all

the food and they sell, you know,

147

the collars and the toys and the cat

trees and all of that stuff, but they

148

acknowledge the fact that you should not

be purchasing animals from a pet store.

149

And there are so many

reasons for that, right?

150

So you don't know really

what you're getting.

151

There is this misconception

that people get.

152

I don't want to rescue a puppy.

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From a shelter because I don't know

where it came from, like they think that

154

buying a puppy from a pet store, they

know where it came from just because it

155

comes with some form of registration.

156

Most of them, which are not

from actual kennel clubs.

157

Liz Menegon: Exactly.

158

That's a whole other conversation.

159

I called someone out on

that and then had a severe.

160

Um, bullying issue on

the, on our Instagram.

161

Um, but that's another topic that

we can, another podcast we can do.

162

But yeah, it's um, you know,

AKC registered means nothing.

163

And let me repeat that.

164

AKC registered puppies mean nothing

unless you breed and show dogs.

165

Period.

166

. That is it.

167

It means nothing.

168

It does not give valid, um, validity

to a healthy animal, but mainstream

169

America sees AKC puppies in the

window and they think, oh, AKC.

170

It's gotta be okay.

171

And it isn't.

172

It's, it's, it isn't false advertising.

173

It's just it isn't.

174

There is no value.

175

And I think that, you know, it's

like, it's like buying a product that

176

says, you know, approved by the FDA

versus not approved by the FDA, you

177

kind of think, oh, AKC, it's okay.

178

And it's not okay.

179

And I just want to say 1

thing that is very important.

180

Um, the American Kennel Club

refuses to take a public stand

181

and commenting on puppy mills.

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That is a travesty, and that

only fuels sales and infuriates

183

breeders that are responsible.

184

Because if the AKC did take a public stand

and say, you know what, enough is enough.

185

Puppy mills are a real problem.

186

If your history of over 120

years is breed integrity,

187

it's not breed integrity.

188

They've gotten around it by

creating a companionship membership.

189

So they've decided to capitalize on the

market instead of saying, please don't.

190

Please don't buy dogs online.

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Please don't buy dogs in pet stores.

192

They've, they've capitalized on it.

193

And I think that is shameful.

194

Dr. G: I think one of the important

things as far as breed integrity is

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that some of these dogs are being

bred for congenital abnormalities.

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And they're being sold under the

guise that these are normal problems.

197

And we have to understand that

something that is common is not normal.

198

Um, I recently, I, I run

a spay and neuter clinic.

199

And I recently had a dog that came

in to have surgery to get neutered.

200

This gentleman had rescued the dog

from somebody else and the dog had a

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condition, what we call stenotic nares.

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So the dog's nose was so

scrunched in that the dog could

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not breathe through its nose.

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And we called the, we called the

owner to inform him about the

205

condition and see if it would be

okay to repair that while the dog was

206

under anesthesia and he had no idea.

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He had no clue.

208

And, and part of it became

from the fact that He thought,

209

this is how these dogs breathe.

210

So it is normal.

211

So we educated him, and we told

him, it's not normal, it's common.

212

And this is what this, this kind of

irresponsible breeding is causing.

213

Uh, and it's mostly, like, the backyard

breeders, and the puppy mills, that are

214

just breeding for volume, and for money,

as opposed to breeding for actual breed

215

standards, for proper breed standards.

216

Liz Menegon: Correct.

217

And integrity.

218

And I think that's the heart

of the, the average American.

219

So, so here's how this whole thing

started after World War Two farmers

220

that had families were suffering.

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And.

222

There was the baby boom, people

were buying homes, and you know,

223

this is the 1950s and the early 40s.

224

So puppy mills actually

originated on farms.

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They used to call them puppy farms.

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They converted chicken coops into housing

for dogs, which unfortunately, you know,

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60 years later, people are still using.

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So, in order to oversee

that, the Department of

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Agriculture was put in charge.

230

So, if you had a puppy mill, and

you lived on a farm, and it's the

231

1950s, you would register with

the Department of Agriculture.

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Now, let's go to today, with

the internet, the Department of

233

Agriculture, who oversees the slaughter

of pigs, chickens, and cows, is

234

overseeing commercial dog breeding.

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Therefore, the people that are breeding

these dogs have the same mentality

236

and mindset of the people that are

breeding the cows, chickens, and pigs.

237

The only thing is, this is a house

pet, but they're not animal lovers.

238

They have no interest in the animal.

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They have no interest

in the animal's health.

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And it all starts at that level, the

animals that are going into pet stores.

241

Are coming from an environment that

would put myself or you in jail.

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It's legal animal cruelty.

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We would be arrested for those conditions.

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So, these animals that people

are purchasing, they are born

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from mothers that have been fed.

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They, they literally take PVC piping.

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That you could buy at a Home

Depot and dump holes, create holes

248

and just dump the food in it.

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So they're given the

poorest quality of food.

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So there is no dental care,

there's no medical care, there's

251

a lot of fraudulent documents.

252

So what you're getting at a pet

store is just, is a mystery dog.

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You may be buying a Chihuahua.

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But if you've ever seen what a real

standard, what a chihuahua is supposed

255

to look like, people are shocked.

256

And, and, and we've

done that periodically.

257

We've placed a photo of, this is what

a bulldog is supposed to look like.

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This is what we're breeding.

259

And it's almost like a

science experiment gone wrong.

260

And people don't realize it

is not, it is not normal.

261

To see certain breeds, but they are

being bred and overbred and overbred.

262

And and this is what is this is what

they're getting is sick animals.

263

You know, every breed has its

own inherent issue, right?

264

Italian greyhounds have two issues.

265

Plain and simple, um, Golden

Retrievers can have hip dysplasia

266

or any, um, uh, flat faced dog.

267

So you've got that, that

brachycephalic face.

268

Right away, you still have issues.

269

Pekingeses have issues with eyelids.

270

So breeds themselves

have their own issues.

271

But when now they're poorly bred.

272

And poorly bred and poorly bred.

273

It just takes a bad situation

and makes it a lot worse.

274

And that is what backyard breeders

and pet stores are selling you.

275

Dr. G: And in the concept of how

these animals are kept, like I

276

compare, I compare it to hoarding.

277

Right, because a lot of these animals

are kept in the same and sometimes even

278

worse conditions than animal hoarders

will keep these animals, especially like

279

rescue hoarders and exploiter hoarders.

280

But the overall difference to me is that

the rescue hoarder and the exploiter

281

hoarder Um, you know, they're, they're

categorized as a animal crime, but then

282

the way that the puppy mills keep these

animals in similar conditions, it's

283

being seen as a business and it's being

legal as a, yeah, it's a legal, legal

284

animal cruelty and legal animal abuse.

285

Um, even though, again, they are,

they're, they're lacking the five

286

freedoms, the five fundamental

animal freedoms in both cases, but

287

one is legal and one is illegal.

288

One is, and one is very purposeful,

and in some cases, animal hoarders

289

are not doing it out of malice.

290

They're doing it out of a

mental health condition.

291

But we are tougher, we are

so much tougher on the...

292

60 year old lady with the 50 cats

that loves all those cats that

293

can't see what she's doing is wrong.

294

We are a lot tougher on her than we

are on the puppy miller that is abusing

295

all these animals just to make a buck.

296

Liz Menegon: Yeah.

297

Yeah.

298

It's, it's, it's, I I

think it is shameful.

299

And I think it is shameful.

300

That people are refusing to listen and

take the, , advice of people that know,

301

you know, if your doctor tells you

there's something wrong with you and

302

you turn around and say, there's nothing

wrong with me and you walk out the door.

303

It's the same.

304

It is no different.

305

Then what people are doing with

buying dogs online or buying designer

306

breeds, you know, when you take a

French bull and you breed it with a

307

Chinese Crested, you have just given

a dog a lifetime of medical issues.

308

You've long gone taken that 15, 000 you

collected, but you've left a family.

309

With an animal that will

have a lifetime of issues.

310

And it's, it's, it's a backyard experiment

and, If you want something that other

311

people think is different, there are

so many beautiful purebreed dogs.

312

If you want to show Stopper Dog, there's

a lot of breeds you can purchase.

313

Not something that somebody bred

and took so much money from you,

314

that in itself should be illegal.

315

So, I think there's a lot of dynamics

to why people buy what they buy.

316

Um, and I think even with the app, it

asks you questions where people and I've

317

attended events representing the app and

people look at each other and they go,

318

Oh, gee, you know, we never thought about

shedding, which I have a huge issue with.

319

So, you know, you look at people's

reactions and they don't think it's cute.

320

It look at that pop up,

look at that adorable dog.

321

They click on it and the

next thing, you know.

322

They're sending a deposit

into the stratosphere.

323

Who knows if they'll even get a dog?

324

Dr. G: I think we are, we are

suckers to the word rare, right?

325

Yes.

326

So people will say, Oh,

look at this rare color.

327

Look at this rare breed.

328

That's how we end up with the double

merles that are deaf and blind.

329

But people still breed them and buy them.

330

Because they're so beautiful.

331

And we are creating these animals

that go through life, not being

332

able to see the world or hear it.

333

Liz Menegon: Um,

334

Dr. G: we have, exactly,

but they look pretty.

335

We have the animals that have very

short legs and it's like, or, uh,

336

some of the Basset hounds with extreme

deformities and people are like, Oh,

337

look how cute and adorable it looks.

338

Yet these dogs are in constant pain

because their legs are not built right.

339

So we are, we are kind of in.

340

In looking at all of these rarities,

we're really kind of, how do you say,

341

encouraging this, this sale, this breeding

and sale of animals that are meant to

342

live a kind of a miserable life in some,

in some cases, and not to say that every

343

animal that is a different color or a

different size or anything like that

344

is going to suffer, but unfortunately,

quite a few of these animals, these

345

experiments, end up suffering.

346

Liz Menegon: Well, and I

think that's education.

347

So people don't realize that

there are breed standards.

348

So, we'll just take the American

Kennel Club as an example.

349

, there are breed standards.

350

So, when you see a French bull,

it's either tan, brindle, or black.

351

They're not merle, and they're

not lavender, and they're not

352

all these funky, crazy colors.

353

And people don't realize that so when,

when I try to address it or do a posting

354

and say, okay, there's no such thing as

a Doberman Pinscher with blue eyes and,

355

you know, fuzzy hair, it's bred with.

356

Um, God knows what people don't realize

there are actual breed standards.

357

So, an animal is bred to look

a certain way to sell to you.

358

It's no different than, than coming

up with the latest designer handbag.

359

I mean, people literally sit

around and go, you know what?

360

How about this?

361

Let's take a chihuahua and breed it

with a schnauzer and see what we get.

362

Let's take a Jack Russell

and breed it with a corgi.

363

So there are so many animals you

can buy from a breeder, which we

364

can get into that are just stunning.

365

Um, a toy fox terrier, a Russian toy, uh,

a Pumi is a beautiful dog and it's, it's

366

this fuzzy gray and when it puts its ears

up, it's almost got hair like, like poofy.

367

It almost looks like it

would be a mix of something.

368

But it is a pure breed dog.

369

Um, an Azawakh is a beautiful hound.

370

So, you don't need to go buy the backyard

experimental dog to have a showstopper if

371

that's what your, um, intended goal is.

372

Dr. G: I work with a lot of rescues

at a lot of shelters and the shelter

373

over population is such a huge problem

and it is because people are getting

374

animals that they, they can't care for,

or they don't, they don't know what

375

to expect when they're getting them.

376

And there's, there's a big push,

you know, I know that a lot of the

377

people in rescue hear the word breeder

and they're against all breeders.

378

And I understand where that is coming

from because the unfortunate part

379

is that there are so many breeders

and most of these are these backyard

380

breeders, these irresponsible breeders.

381

So, while I would love for everybody

to first get their animals from their

382

shelters and clear the shelters out,

there are people that have specific, that

383

have specific wants or needs and If you

must get a dog from a, from a breeder,

384

then it has to be a responsible breeder.

385

And what makes a responsible breeder

is somebody that has a veterinarian

386

that's not doing their stuff themselves.

387

It's somebody that has all the

certifications as far as making sure

388

that the joints are in good health,

that the eyes are in good health,

389

that these dogs have the minimal,

uh, chances of having congenital and

390

genetic deformities and problems.

391

Correct.

392

Because we don't want to continue on

with all these, all of these genetic

393

problems that we associate with breeds.

394

just because they're being

inbred over and over and over.

395

So that that's kind of going to bring

us back to how can we keep animals

396

from going into shelters and that's

going to be with proper selection.

397

And realistically, whether it is a

purebred or a mixed breed, we have

398

to make Educated decisions and how

we're going going to get these dogs.

399

So let's start with the things that

I think some people don't realize

400

and which your app kind of helps.

401

Uh, people kind of say consider

which would be things like

402

barking and drooling and size.

403

So can you tell us the importance

of all of these different, uh,

404

parts of the selection process and

picking up what dog you should get?

405

Liz Menegon: Sure.

406

Well, you know, I think first of all,

there's nothing like having the perfect

407

dog that matches your lifestyle.

408

Um, now we've been talking here the

whole time, and people don't know this

409

or can't see this, but I have this seven

pound Italian greyhound that's been

410

sound asleep in my arms the whole time.

411

So this works for my lifestyle.

412

So what's, I've had the battle,

I'm, I'm the battering ram, I'm

413

the one that takes the heads.

414

People say all breeders are bad.

415

Well, I can tell you that.

416

When you get a dog from a breeder who

breeds show dogs, you sign a contract that

417

has various things in it, and one of them

is, this dog under no circumstances can

418

be given away or brought to a shelter.

419

It must be returned.

420

So, let's go, let's go

back to the beginning.

421

So, when you want to get a dog, sometimes

people don't think about size, energy.

422

Everyone loves a corgi.

423

There's a trend.

424

We also are very trendy in this country.

425

The trends now are the miniature

Australian Shepherds, anything

426

with a doodle in it, and a corgi.

427

, if you download the app, you do have

an option if you'd like to rescue,

428

but let's stick with purebreed.

429

So, you select purebreed, and you

answer these 12 basic questions.

430

Size.

431

Energy.

432

Drooling.

433

Shedding.

434

Stimulation.

435

Now if you love a corgi,

they love They're a herder.

436

They need a job.

437

Uh, if you don't want a shedding dog,

Corgis shed, and they shed a lot.

438

So, you know, all of a sudden the

dog you had in mind isn't going

439

to show up on what is recommended.

440

Because once you answer the 12

questions, the algorithm then goes

441

through all the dogs recognized.

442

by the American Kennel Club.

443

It's the same with the

Canadian Kennel Club.

444

They recognize some breeds that we don't.

445

And it's the same with the app in the UK.

446

There are some dogs that are the same,

but they have a different name, or

447

they don't recognize breeds that we do.

448

So what the app then does is shows you the

results of your profile of what you want.

449

In a dog.

450

So the things that you want or you don't

want, you will get a list of these breeds.

451

It may be a short list.

452

It could be a long list, depending

if you want a extra large dog and

453

you don't care if it drools or sheds.

454

You're gonna end up with

Neapolitan Mastiffs, you're

455

gonna end up with Newfoundlands.

456

You know anything that's over

the a hundred pound mark.

457

But if you're very specific

and you say, Hey, I'm single.

458

I live in an apartment, you know, I

want a mellow dog that is, I don't know,

459

maybe we'll bark when the doorbell rings.

460

If you live in an apartment and

you just purchased a beagle from

461

a pet store, because there's

nothing cuter than a Beagle puppy.

462

You're gonna, you're probably gonna

end up getting thrown out of your

463

apartment because they are barkers.

464

So, when you get matched with a breed,

you then click on the image of that breed.

465

And you get to read a little bit more, but

the best thing about this app is when you

466

click on that, that image again, it brings

you to the breed association website.

467

They also call it a parent company.

468

So anyone who breeds and shows.

469

Either is the president of the club

or a secretary or a director and they

470

have their own set of bylaws and one

of those bylaws is you cannot belong to

471

the Italian Greyhound Club of America

and be posting dogs for sale online.

472

Can't do it.

473

. So, you're, you're brought

right to that association.

474

Now, the most wonderful thing about

a breed association website is you

475

get to read all about the breed.

476

You get, they have their own rescue.

477

Every breed has their own rescue group.

478

You can find out about rescues.

479

They also have retired show dogs.

480

Now, when you get a puppy, and I can

give you an example, my Italian greyhound

481

came from a woman who breeds and shows

Italian greyhounds in Rhode Island.

482

There was all the paperwork.

483

It is so expensive to show

dogs because they have to

484

have all of this testing done.

485

So, when you buy from a breeder, their

intentions are breeding for show dogs.

486

Now, my dog was too small to be shown,

so she was the perfect house pet.

487

My dog was $1,100, which included

her getting spayed and microchipped.

488

. I met a woman in New York City who bought

an Italian greyhound from a pet store.

489

She paid 5, 000 for an Italian greyhound.

490

that also had parvo.

491

Now the fact that the dog

survived is, is beyond me.

492

But here's a young girl who

probably used a credit card and

493

is now deeply in debt for a dog

that was purchased at a pet store.

494

So this is just one example of

when you buy a dog from a breeder

495

who's a responsible breeder.

496

And when a breeder says, I'm not selling

you anything until you come to me.

497

So either you fly to Ohio

or you drive to New Jersey.

498

They want to meet you.

499

They send you paperwork.

500

You have to fill out because they may

not even want to sell you a puppy.

501

So, you know, I've had, I've

taken a lot of hits from the

502

adopt don't shop mentality.

503

It's adopt don't shop online,

adopt don't shop at a pet store.

504

I'm not part of the problem.

505

My dog would never end up in

a shelter because I've agreed.

506

that this dog must go back to the breeder.

507

So when you see owner surrenders,

most owner surrenders don't come

508

from breeders who breed show dogs.

509

You have to return the dog to them.

510

No questions asked.

511

They just take the dog back.

512

So that's something

people need to realize.

513

I tell people, you know what, Download

the app, see what breed works for

514

you, and then, who knows, maybe you

can, maybe you can adopt a show dog,

515

a rescue dog, that you are given all

the paperwork for the, for checking

516

of the eyes, the heart, um, the hips,

the joints, um, Italian greyhounds

517

have a tendency to have epilepsy.

518

It is very prevalent in this breed,

so you don't, you know, people

519

don't know what they're getting.

520

I think everyone should foster a dog.

521

Anyone who doesn't own

a dog shouldn't foster.

522

Just to see if you want

to be a responsible owner.

523

You know, there's an expense

that comes with a pet.

524

And when someone turns a pet to

a shelter and says, Well, we just

525

didn't realize how expensive it is.

526

You have to put more thought into

it because there are expenses.

527

.

Dr. G: You know, 24 Pet Watch did, uh, some research about the, where

528

animals are coming into shelters.

529

And they said that most of the, the

majority of animals that are coming into

530

shelters are acquired from the community.

531

Meaning, like, backyard

breeders and that kind of stuff.

532

As opposed to...

533

Uh, rescues and breeders and and some of

that comes from resources So when you're

534

going responsible responsible breeders

and responsible shelters because there

535

is such thing as responsible sheltering

Are going to try to match the animal

536

with the person as opposed to just

saying I want a dog I want that dog.

537

Okay, here you go.

538

Here's the the adoption

fee or here's the sale.

539

Um You know, you have to have some

responsibility in doing that because

540

we, we get into this mentality that,

you know, we can get whatever animal we

541

want and then expect it to modify its

behavior to what we require from them.

542

And that's no, that's not how that works.

543

And yes, every animal, every animal

of every breed and even mixed

544

breeds, they're all individuals.

545

So not two animals are going to

behave in exactly the same way.

546

But there are going to be some breed

predilections as far as what they need.

547

That we need to be, that we need

to be aware of so that we can

548

set the animals and ourselves

for success and not for failure.

549

You know, that's, that's one of the,

the problems that I have with the,

550

with the pet stores selling animals,

is that it's literally money making.

551

So the person goes into the pet store,

falls in love with a dog, it doesn't

552

matter what kind of a dog it is, there

is no knowledge of anything like that.

553

Um, You know, usually I like the, the idea

that you have to go to somebody's property

554

to get an animal so that you can see the

environment where that animal was raised.

555

Uh, you know, people that are looking

for purebred dogs, you always want

556

to see the parents of the dog.

557

You want to see how

they're being care for.

558

You want to make sure that

they're not from a puppy mill

559

or from a backyard breeder.

560

So somebody that wants to meet you

in the parking lot of the mall at 10

561

o'clock at night, that's sketchy, right?

562

Liz Menegon: With a wad of cash.

563

Dr. G: Right, exactly.

564

So we gotta, we have to be a little

bit smarter than that and how we are,

565

how we are getting animals so that

they're not ending up in, in shelters or

566

abandoned or, and, and another problem

that I see is how some people will

567

get these animals that are a lot of

work that are great, fantastic breeds.

568

And again, even like the, the

rescues, but they don't put the work.

569

into them as they're young.

570

And then you have this three

month old puppy that is just

571

play biting, but it doesn't get

corrected because it's so cute.

572

And then by 10 months, it's

escalated from play biting to a

573

little bit more aggressive biting.

574

And then at that time, they

decide, well, I don't want this

575

dog anymore because it's biting.

576

And then they dump it into a rescue for

a behavior that could have been helped.

577

Um, could have been modified, or the dog

could have ended up in an environment

578

where that is more, how do you say, where

it can do what the breed was meant to do.

579

Correct.

580

So we, so we are just setting, I

mean, overall we are creating the

581

problem and we're not doing anything,

anywhere quick enough to fix it.

582

Liz Menegon: Well, and again, it

comes down to impulse purchasing,

583

putting time into it and thinking,

do we really want to do this?

584

And, you know, the public

has to be aware of.

585

all the other scams that go on.

586

When you see a French bull and

it says for adoption, rehoming,

587

and it's 7, 000, they're using the

terminology because in the state

588

of New York, if you sell more than

eight dogs, you're considered a

589

breeder and you have to adhere.

590

To the, um, lemon puppy law,

where if there's an issue they

591

can bring it the dog back.

592

There's an, they can

manipulate the system.

593

So it's actually, you're

actually adopting a dog.

594

So, so your listeners need to be

aware if you see rehoming, Adoption,

595

and it's not a typical two or three

hundred dollar adoption fee, which

596

is generally just to cover expenses.

597

Total scam.

598

It's a total scam.

599

It's just a way to get

around being responsible.

600

Um, there's also something that is

being done where you are a puppy mill.

601

You are squalor, but you find a

family that will foster a puppy.

602

And then when you call, you go and see the

puppy, but they send you to those people.

603

So you're, you're like, okay,

well, are you the owner?

604

No, no, no.

605

I want to see the owner.

606

I want to see the parents.

607

If you're in that position, then

that dog is from a puppy mill.

608

Because if you go to a house

and there's one dog there,

609

you're like, this is a puppy.

610

Where are the parents?

611

It's like, it's like temporary housing

for a dog, because they don't want you

612

to come and see where the dog is from.

613

So, there are angles, but, but

consumers need to be 1 step ahead

614

and there are questions you can ask.

615

Um, I don't think Instagram should be

able to have a, a, a main pipeline.

616

Um, I don't think Facebook,

TikTok, they're all breeding

617

grounds for selling puppies.

618

Craigslist no longer let people sell.

619

Now it's for adoption.

620

But it's 8, 000.

621

You're not adopting a

dog, you're buying a dog.

622

So consumers need to

accept the fact, right?

623

Accept the fact, if somebody tells

you something, they're telling

624

you because it's the truth.

625

Don't put it aside and

just buy that puppy online.

626

If I have a friend and I found

out they bought a puppy online,

627

I'd have a heart attack.

628

Because they know what I do.

629

And they know that that's

coming from a puppy mill.

630

So it's all about educating

your listeners, right?

631

You stay out of pet stores.

632

There are dogs that will

not fit your lifestyle.

633

If you're a jogger and you want a

dog and you live in Miami and you

634

want a dog that's going to exercise,

why are you going to buy a husky?

635

Or an English bulldog that's

gonna drop dead in the backyard.

636

You get yourself a saloogie.

637

You get a, even a greyhound.

638

You know, racing greyhounds

in a New York City apartment.

639

Are better than a corgi because they

want to go out, sniff the air and

640

go right back and lay on the sofa.

641

They have no interest.

642

Um, so I think that there

is a huge difference.

643

You do a disservice

644

when you get a breed that

does not match your lifestyle.

645

If I had a Jack Russell running

around my apartment, I would

646

have a nervous breakdown.

647

But if you can open the back

door and it's running around your

648

backyard, because they're pack

animals, they love to dig holes.

649

You're letting them do what

nature intended them to do.

650

And I think we forget we

want to own something.

651

There's something very

interesting about human beings.

652

We seem to want to own something.

653

Whether it's people who own tigers

and all these bizarre animals.

654

Not every animal is meant to be owned.

655

But when you do own an animal.

656

And it's lifestyle and it's

genetics match your life.

657

It's, it's, it's a

wonderful, happy experience.

658

It doesn't end up in a shelter.

659

And this is what people don't understand.

660

They, they're like, la,

la, la, yada, yada, yada.

661

And then they go off and they

buy a dog and they said, no,

662

this doodle, we did our research.

663

No, you didn't.

664

You went to a website that looks

like a website, that looks legit.

665

You probably even spoke to a puppy broker.

666

People don't realize that

there are puppy brokers.

667

You're talking to a lady on

the phone who's so friendly.

668

She's a broker.

669

It's a, it's a middleman.

670

It's like booking a

reservation to go on vacation.

671

If you want a dog, you go to the breed

specific association, period, period.

672

I don't care what it is.

673

And then you can go from there.

674

You may say, wow, I was

actually matched with a chow.

675

I wonder if there are

any chows in shelters.

676

Because then the app.

677

You can select, um, rescue, answer

the same questions, and it's tied into

678

Petfinder, which Petfinder, I wish

their platform was a little different,

679

but at least you have an idea, and then

you may be able to find something in a

680

shelter, but every breed association show.

681

does have their own rescue as well.

682

So you can rescue the

shelters are inundated.

683

That's a, but you're seeing a

backlash, not from COVID returns.

684

You're seeing people

that are experimenting.

685

And dumping and also dumping adult dogs

say, wow, this is way too much work.

686

The only way to correct

it is to educate yourself.

687

It doesn't matter.

688

40 percent of people purchasing dogs.

689

We'll purchase a dog that their friends

or a relative owned or a neighbor.

690

So if your neighbor has a Labradoodle

and you're like, what a great dog.

691

Oh, call our breeder.

692

You've now just purchased

another backyard breeder dog.

693

So there are statistics on buying habits.

694

But you may want a dog that has

absolutely would never work for you.

695

And there is a question about, do

you have other pets, dogs or cats?

696

Some some animals are not

good with other animals.

697

So I think it's you do a

disservice To get the wrong animal.

698

Dr. G: Yeah, we want to we want to

manage behavior too much with pills.

699

And that is that is another pet

peeve of mine when people will

700

have a dog that is an active dog.

701

And it's like, well, it's

anxious, or it's, you know, I

702

need something to calm him down.

703

It's like, no, you need to take the

time and exercise, you need to take the

704

time and take him for jogs or for runs,

or put him in doggy agility classes.

705

Like, we can we cannot

solve the animal behavior.

706

Problems with just popping

animals with pills.

707

And the other thing is age.

708

A lot of people want a puppy, and

they don't understand all the work

709

that comes with having a puppy.

710

I've always been very lucky that The dogs

that I have gotten have been puppies,

711

but I work in an environment where my

dog can come to work with me every day.

712

It's socialized, it sees a lot of

people, it can be walked outside, uh,

713

frequently throughout the day, so I

have the resources to raise a puppy.

714

properly, right?

715

As far as socialization, as far as, um,

potty training and all of those things.

716

But not everybody has the time

to raise a puppy and that's okay.

717

So there are places where you

can rescue or purchase animals

718

that are a little bit older.

719

And then you have an animal

that you, you kind of know what

720

you're getting and it's not as

721

time consuming in the training process.

722

So you can still

723

give an animal a home, give an animal

a good home without running the

724

risk of not raising them properly.

725

And then, you know, having them end up

with behavior problems or other issues

726

that, that end up in the shelters.

727

Liz Menegon: And again, that's education.

728

You know, I commented on, um, a photo on

Instagram where they gave grandma a puppy.

729

Well, as lovely as that is,

Grandma can't take care of a puppy.

730

So there are wonderful, older, smaller

breeds that just want a lap to sit

731

on and live the rest of their lives.

732

You know, a lot of older dogs

that you see in shelters.

733

Um, come from owners who have passed away.

734

No arrangements were made.

735

No family members wanted the dog.

736

So, it was, I don't know, a family member,

the attorney, whoever was in charge of

737

the estate, just dumped it in a shelter.

738

Dr. G: So people need to understand

consumers need to understand

739

the power that they have over

the supply and demand, right?

740

So if we, if we stop the demand.

741

Then the supply has to dwindle and

and the sad part of it is that there

742

are going to be some animals that are

kind of stuck in the middle, while,

743

you know, the, the demand goes away

that supply has to go somewhere.

744

Um, so, and that's what I think

we're overall afraid of is

745

what's going to happen to the.

746

Thousands hundreds of thousands

of animals stuck in puppy mills

747

during that during that part.

748

But realistically, we

have to put a stop to it.

749

And the only way to do

it is to be educated.

750

Stop purchasing from from poor

sources from puppy mills from

751

pet stores and do our homework.

752

And when doing homework.

753

There's this thing called

confirmation bias, right?

754

Some people do their homework

based on what they want to hear

755

based on what they want to find.

756

So instead of saying, you know, it's

a, uh, it's a Dalmatian good for me.

757

It's more of, I want a Dalmatian.

758

Are people like me okay with Dalmatians?

759

And then they will find like the one

or two cases where a Dalmatian is

760

perfect in that, in that scenario.

761

And they're like, oh, there it is.

762

Um, so we have to, we have to know

in doing research, we have to do

763

research from appropriate sources.

764

People need to talk to

their veterinarians, talk to

765

proper trainers, not the...

766

You know, run of the mill people that call

themselves trainers, they need to speak

767

to people that are experts in the field

prior to making these decisions so that

768

they can make a good educated decision

and can end up with a lifelong member of

769

their family, not uh, a disposable being.

770

Liz Menegon: Hands to

Paws has a spokes dog.

771

named Stripe.

772

And Stripe is our spokes dog

against buying puppies online.

773

And I recommend anyone to go

to our website, which is www.

774

hands2paws.

775

com , you will see Stripe, um,

the ad for Stripe that the girl

776

responded to, and Stripe's DNA.

777

And...

778

Cassandra, who is the owner

of Stripe, was so gracious.

779

She bought him online.

780

He came from Ohio, as a matter of fact.

781

He was half...

782

Chinese crested and half shih tzu.

783

So she drives her buffalo to Ohio,

picks up this adorable dog that they

784

said looks like Yoda, great with kids.

785

Non shedding all the buzzwords

to get your attention.

786

Adorable looking dog.

787

I would've purchased him myself.

788

She did a D n A, he turned

out to be, I have to remember

789

offhand now, um, 30% shihtzu.

790

He was, um, Yorkshire Terrier,

Poodle, um, Chihuahua.

791

And 7 percent Chinese Crested.

792

So we made him, we made him

the spokesdog because he

793

represents that online purchase.

794

He is not a Chinese Crested Shih Tzu.

795

He's a mix of four other dogs.

796

So then it leaves the conversation open

to, well, wait a minute, that's fraud.

797

How many people are being ripped off?

798

So again, you have one simple,

you think talking about buying

799

puppies online is a simple thing.

800

It opens up a whole dialogue of fraud.

801

And theft never buy a dog online.

802

Beware of the adoption rehoming scams.

803

Adoptions are not 7, 000.

804

Rehoming fees are not 7, 000.

805

You are selling dogs.

806

You are buying a backyard breeder dog.

807

Dr. G: Yeah, we see, uh, that concept

here in Ohio with puppy flippers, right?

808

That's right.

809

People that get dogs, that get dogs and

then they say, we rescued this litter.

810

And we are finding them homes, and then

they're under the guise of a rescue,

811

but they're not really a rescue,

because they're selling these dogs.

812

And, and somewhat relatively inexpensive,

because they will sell them for three

813

to five hundred dollars to match

kind of what rescues are going for.

814

But all they're doing is just buying

litters, like the people that have

815

the signs of free puppies or whatever.

816

They'll go, they'll get them,

and then they'll flip them.

817

So again, as consumers, we have all

the power, so we have to be educated,

818

we have to know what we're doing, and

we have to advocate for the animals,

819

because in the end, that's what it's

all about, it's about animal welfare,

820

it's about proper care of these animals.

821

I, I've actually been part of

investigations with HSUS with their

822

puppy mill campaigns and they are amazing

campaigns because they do undercover

823

work to expose how these animals are

kept, the cruelty that goes in both

824

the, the puppy mills, as well as the pet

stores that are selling these animals

825

and how the consumers undergo fraud.

826

So, you know, I know that, you know, HSUS

is doing a good, a good job at attempting

827

to educate people as far as the puppy

mills and not purchasing from them.

828

Um.

829

And trying to crack down on the

backyard breeders, that's where that

830

horrible hundred list comes from, right?

831

Just a compilation of all the

things, because we have to, again,

832

as consumers, we have to go in,

eyes open, and understand what the

833

problem is, understand how we are...

834

perpetuating this problem and then figure

out together a way to, a way to stop it.

835

And it's really not going to stop

until we stop buying dogs from,

836

from these horrible sources.

837

Liz Menegon: I wouldn't buy a car online.

838

I hate buying shoes online, let

alone a living, breathing creature.

839

Dr. G: Yeah, that's a,

that's a good point.

840

Like, I won't buy jeans online.

841

I go to the store to buy jeans

because they all fit different.

842

It doesn't matter if it's the right

size, if it's the right brand, if

843

it's something that I've been buying

for years and years, I'm going to

844

go to the store and try the clothes.

845

That's right.

846

So, yeah.

847

It's, it's a, it's a really good point.

848

We don't know what we're getting

when we, when we are purchasing.

849

So yeah, it all starts with education,

uh, consumer power, and then, uh,

850

supporting laws that make sense,

uh, supporting advocacy groups

851

that are looking to, to better the.

852

the well being of animals in general.

853

, hopefully this has given

people enough information.

854

Um, and enough education again,

not just the information that we

855

have talked, but also resources

to look and and become educated.

856

And we all have the power

to make a difference.

857

So, I mean, I want to thank

you for taking this time.

858

and sharing your thoughts with me

and having this discussion about how

859

we can help promote responsible pet

ownership and decrease the number

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of animals that are surrendered.

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And, uh, to everybody that's listening,

I hope that this has been helpful

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and I want to thank you everybody for

listening and thank you for caring

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and thank you Liz for being here.

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Liz Menegon: Thank you and thank you

for giving me an opportunity to try

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to get it's a lot of information,

but at least we can get it out there.

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Thank you.