his week on The Green Room Terry and Chris dive into the latest report from the DVSA including looking at test waiting times.

Pay per mile is also discussed, along with whether wearing an Instructor Podcast t-shirt could help your chances of passing a Part 3 test.

We also wrap up the listener questions from last month and finish by breaking down who we'd like to watch at the Expo.

Check out the DITC here

Read the DVSA report here.

For more information on The Instructor Podcast visit https://www.theinstructorpodcast.com/

For additional content and exclusive discounts, be sure to check out our Premium subscription - Here you'll find lots of extra content, including:

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The instructor podcast with Terry Cook.

Talking with leaders, innovators, experts and game changers about what drives them.

Welcome to the instructor podcast green room.

This is a show we cover all the latest news and hot topics from in the driving instructor world.

As always, I am your mediocre host, Terry Cook.

I'm delighted to be here, even more delighted that you have chosen to listen.

You'll be delighted also that it's not just me, because I am joined by the immortal Chris Spencer.

How we doing, Chris?

I'm immortal this time.

I love it.

Yes.

No, I'm really good.

Really good.

I've missed you.

We haven't spoken much.

I mean, we spoke the same time last month.

You've only gone like 30 days without me.

I'm a year older.

Happy birthday.

Thank you.

Your birthday.

I only tweaked this and maybe this is why I haven't noticed it.

The last couple of years is the anniversary of the worst day of my life.

It literally falls in that day.

So I ignored all social media on that day.

They went on the day after.

I'm like, oh, okay.

Somehow there's some kind of weird balance here.

Your birthday is on the worst day of my life.

Okay.

I don't know what to say to it, but yes.

Well, there you go.

Sometimes I wonder if I'm too open.

Who knows?

I'll do a poll.

I'm halfway to 90 now, so I'm.

Not quite there yet.

Feel like we've got off topic already either way.

Yes.

We're also joined by a couple, one of my lovely premium members, one of my favorite premium members, in fact, and not just because you say Penny Alexander is, is along watching us talk nonsense.

And we'll hopefully be joining in, in the chat potentially later on as well.

But for those of you paying attention and listening along, you will hopefully have noticed that this podcast, that would dig early, usually I release it on the last day of the month.

I am releasing this on the 29 September because that is the day that expo is.

So if you are driving down or driving up or forwards or backwards or whatever, you can listen to and from there.

But before we get into anything today, I want to give a little shout out to Gary Thomas, who recently, as a recording yesterday, in fact passed his part free.

Now, I don't normally give shouts to people that pass far free because there's a lot that do it and it will take up a lot of the show if I did that every month.

But I give a shout out to Gary Thomas in particular because a, he's a, premium member.

B, he often attends these green rooms, so he's kind of special routely, if you like.

And did I do a or b or one?

Two, I've forgotten either way.

A, okay.

And c, he wore his instructor podcast t shirt on his, on his part three, which I just think he's awesome.

And clearly you can forget all the hard work you put in.

You can forget the memberships, the courses, all the training needed.

He passed because he wore that t shirt.

Absolutely.

And now he's passed.

He doesn't care about the podcast anymore and didn't turn up today.

That's exactly what's happened.

Clearly.

I know it's not true, Gary, honestly.

He did message me afterwards and said he was listening to the podcast on his way home from his part three.

I'm like, just take a break, put music on, it's fine.

But yes, big congratulations to him.

And I genuinely, and I've said it on a post, I think.

But I genuinely think the DVSA should hand out instructor podcast t shirts to anyone that passes the power free.

Yes, I fully support that.

And my congratulations to him as well because he's worked his backside off and really, you know, just engaged with literally everything.

So yeah, more, more of him in the industry is a good thing.

He has put me and probably most of us, if not all of us, to shame with the work and effort he's put in.

It's ridiculous.

But yes, be more Gary, I think is a phrase we can potentially use going forward, but we are covering some stuff today.

Obviously it's a little bit of news in the DVSA released their annual report, so we're going to go through that.

We're not going to go for it in a massive amount of detail.

We'll cover a couple of key points, but I will put a link in the show notes.

You can go back and read that in all its 105 pages of glory, I believe it is, or you could use AI to short it down for you.

Whatever.

I will ask Chris about that shortly.

And then later on we've got some questions that were left over from last month that we're going to be coming back to and if there's time.

So maybe I shouldn't advertise it, but if there's time at the end of the show, we're going to be looking at the expo and looking at who we will go and see at what time.

So we'll be annoying some people and making some others happy.

But just before we get into the DVSA's report, I want to take a moment to just give a little personal thank you because this month I released an impromptu season of the instructor podcast that no one knew was coming, and I just dropped six episodes of what I called in conversation with Laura Morris.

If you haven't listened to them, go and check them out.

Some really good numbers for the downloads for the first week and some awesome feedback.

So big.

Thank you for the those of you that listen.

Thank you for those of you that have taken time to give me feedback and genuinely, I'd really welcome more intrigued to know whether you like the idea of all those episodes being dropped on the same day, whether you prefer them being spread out or, you know, if I did it again, would you prefer one a day over the course of a week or whatever?

But also, feedback generally on the show is always welcome.

But a big thank you for that.

And of course, a thank you to Laura Morris for being the guinea pig that spent 12 hours with me and well, betide anyone that does that.

And I suppose lastly, I will just mention actually, Stuart Lockery of Brightcorch and again, who once again agreed to sponsor season eight, which was quite brave considering it was something very, very different to what we've done before, but really appreciated having him on board again for that.

And in October he is releasing the online version of his coaching behavioral change and psychology qualification.

So go and check out bracketcoach.net to find out more about that.

Anything you want to mention on that, Chris?

Now, I know you've not had a chance to listen to this yet because I've just thrown 6 hours of audio at you, but anything you want to mention on that before we move on?

No, because I'm currently trying to digest everything that you just said.

There were a lot of words there, but I think most of them made some kind of sense.

Yes.

Let's move on to this DVSA report then.

Is there anything you want to touch on first?

Chris?

Yeah, if you don't want to read it, stick it into AI.

Ask AI to do it, because copilot did a lovely summary for me.

I did read it, just to clarify, but I kind of, you know, when you look at the page and there's two things that happen.

One, the information just swims over you and you kind of think it's just lots of words, and two, you're slightly ante it before you've even read the first line because you know it's going to be spin that.

I had both of those going on and I was struggling a bit, so I stuck it into copilot, and it was really positive.

It was great.

It said everything that wonderful that was going on.

So I then asked copilot to write it with the view of a cynical driving instructor.

It felt much more at home at that point.

It did a really good job of that as well.

So that's my advice.

If, you know, it's worth us looking at these things, we should know what's going on.

If you don't want to, there is an alternative.

Listen to the podcast.

Let us do the work for you.

But at least if you chuck it in there, you get a summary and an overview.

You'll have a finger on the pulse.

I think that I am providing the cynical.

The cynical old man drives the minute, battling all cynicism with everything at the minute.

So expect a bit of that.

But, well, look, I'm going to start with this then, because in fact, just probably going.

One thing I forgot to mention at the start that I fully planned to do was say hello to Jenny Benstead, because I know she's an avid listener.

Cat was one of my downloads, so big hello to Jenny Benstead.

But yes, there was a quote from Love day rider in her opening.

What's the word I'm looking for?

Let's go in monologue, which just amused me greatly, which was taking all available steps to reduce waiting times will be a priority for DVSA in 24 to 25.

So taking all available steps to reduce waiting times will be a priority to DVSA in 24 or 25.

Do you think that it was worth waiting till 24 or 25 to make this a priority?

Chris?

Yes, it just makes you wonder what they've been up to.

I like the way that they also said about how they've been making leaps and bounds forwards with technology and the systems that they're using.

We're not seeing any of that.

I really wanted to look at it and go, all right, where are these positive good things?

And yeah, and statements like that.

They were just feeding the inner beast that was screaming.

No, there is a lot of good in this report.

It's just not in the testing area.

Yes, there's some interesting stuff around the politics side, the staffing side, and it's not in the numbers, actually.

And I did read it all in several goes.

I couldn't do it in one go, but it was the words that I found quite interesting.

And I know sometimes you said that they're going to put spin on stuff, but I don't know.

There is some positive there, but it's the stuff that's not really relevant to us because when we're talking test waiting times they set a target of last year.

So 23 to 24 that by I think it's march of 24 they would have test waiting times down to seven weeks or less.

And its currently at 16.1 weeks which is better than the year before which was 16.4 weeks.

And I find that fascinating.

The fact that its gone from 16.4 to 16.1.

So a reduction of 0.3 which isnt three days.

I dont know what it will be in terms of hours but its 0.3 of a week.

And I think the reason why I find that fascinating is because they set a target at seven weeks so they wanted to have it.

And I just wondered did they underestimate the task at hand do you think?

Or was that that spin of oh well, do this and then hope for the best?

Or was it an I know we don't know.

I know we're guessing this, but do you think you underestimate?

I haven't got a clue because they seem to be on a totally different planet to the rest of us in the way that they're viewing it.

We've had them sort of saying oh yeah, two, three years it will be back to where it should be or they've set these goals.

It's also regional.

You only know where you are.

So around here I'll take 16 weeks, thank you very much.

Because the feeling of it and sometimes that's wrong because sometimes actually there is this flexibility in there but when you're trying to book it on a Monday morning and there's nothing, you don't see that.

And actually with a lot of work from driving instructors, juggling pupils and tests and working together.

All right, maybe we do achieve the 16 weeks.

It does not feel like it.

I still feel like it's in excess of six months because they only see up to the window that they allow booking available.

It would suggest that if it's 16 weeks that there's slots that aren't being booked up, that there's availability, that you could go on now and grab it.

Not in my neck of the woods.

So I just don't see those things.

But they've got to aim for seven weeks, haven't they?

Because that's their target.

That's what's been set as being.

That's normal and we haven't.

I don't think I've ever seen it around those figures really in the area I'm in.

So maybe nationally it's a bit different.

Maybe I've got a slightly blinkered view.

I just don't get where they were going to get that capacity because there's not a massive increase in the number of examiners out there.

Again, from what we're seeing every time, there's always bringing in this number of people, there's people exiting.

It's just not the picture we're seeing.

So maybe we're wrong.

Maybe we're on the outside looking in and we're just seeing the things that are falling away.

And actually there's lots of really good innovation happening on the inside of things.

Then shout about it, give us specifics, because I'm not seeing those.

And I think what you just said is really important to remember, and we always forget because it's not our wheelhouse.

The DBSA do a lot that's not to do with testing.

And yes, fine, there's all that stuff going on with the greatest respect to all of it and probably lovely people, I don't care because it doesn't affect me.

If there's a problem there that affects me, then I'll pay attention to it.

But we've got enough of the issues in our little sector of things, you know, how the other half live.

Hey, I mean, I've lost the number now, but they did steer that.

It was something like an extra 100,000 tests were created when they shifted all the office staff into the testing stuff.

But the seven weeks thing is, I mean, you know, I'm not always the biggest fan of smart goals, but this is the type of thing that requires a smart goal.

If it's seven weeks, if that's your overall target, then look at it and go, well, we're not going to achieve this issue.

This is a three year plan, seven weeks.

By the end of this year, we're going to be at 16.1.

Whatever you think is achievable.

Raoul.

Yeah, and I think actually I would respect that so much more if they said, you know what, it's really crap.

We're in a real estate, we don't know quite where we're going to go.

There's lots of ideas, but some of it is restricted in the ability to get there.

And we want to maintain safe driving for life as a policy, we want to maintain road safety.

So do you know what?

It's not going to be a quick win.

I'd back that and I'd see the value in that and it wouldn't be what we want and we'd still complain, but I would actually respect that more than a goal, wherever was it?

16 weeks, isn't it?

So my maths has gone out of the window.

So nine weeks longer than it's supposed to be.

It's more than double what it supposed, what their target was.

And to put that in context, six months, which is the waiting list window that's open, is 24 weeks.

So we're looking at them saying that there's a third of the waiting list is available is how I process that.

Thats not true.

I agree.

I think if they came out and said, well, we are prioritizing safety for life over getting the waiting list down, youre going to win more people, youre going to win some of this more sensible people over even if lets not go too far down that rabbit hole.

Penny has chipped in to tell us its 145,000, which im presuming is the number of test, increased tests as a result of bringing those office staff in.

You mentioned it being regional.

It is regional.

They did give some more regional data that again I'm not going to go into.

But they spoke about how London is the biggest problem.

And I do often wonder whether London should be taken out of these statistics because it's almost, I heard this somewhere recently, it stuck in my head and it's true.

We think of England or Britain as a rich country.

It's not London's rich.

Noher else is rich.

And I just wonder whether London is the outlier and take that out and maybe I could have done this before we looked in and see if I could dig these stats up, but take London out and then see what the average is.

I think there'd be a lot more people potentially swinging in DVSA's favor if they went, oh, we've only got, we got to 8.8 weeks, but London's 24.

That would be, you know, that would be something living on the outskirts.

I'm going to go with London's expensive, not rich, but.

But it depends on which side of that fence you're sitting.

But yeah, no, I think that's where sometimes these overviews don't give us what we need.

And when our picture doesn't match the picture that's being portrayed, that causes resentment.

And as always, I'm looking forward to hearing what Love day has to say in person, but it will probably echo the same thing.

Love day being interviewed on stage by Stuart Lockrie, who I don't know if I should say this, but, you know, whatever, it'll go out on the day.

He asked me for some questions so I provided them.

I don't think he's going to use them all.

I'm not sure I would.

A couple of stats I'm going to give you, Chris, from this, just to see if you've got any thoughts on.

Because around the theory, which I know you've got something to do with somewhere.

I don't know.

The theory test candidates satisfied with the service they received from the DVSA was 95%, 96%.

Sorry.

And theory test candidates waiting times on average were 3.6 weeks.

I think the theory is working, isn't it, really?

The pass rate is still pathetically low and I'm working really hard on improving that.

We need to change our approach.

But that's not the DVSA.

I had a lovely meeting with Greg Walsh from DBSA, who?

He's the question writer.

Him and his team, they write the test questions and had a really good meeting.

It was really positive and I couldn't fault their approach on things from that perspective.

A large part of the issue is our end of that arrangement.

We really need to step that up and actually, we don't want DBSA to fix that because a lot of us would be worse off for it from a commercial perspective.

So, you know, I think actually the theory is they should probably shout about even more because they're getting it right, the bit that they subcontract so that there's a commercial entity in charge of it and dealing with it.

But I think there's a whole other conversation there for another green room episode.

But I'm going to give you these two stats because these amused me greatly and I've no idea why they're on there.

Can practical test candidates.

So people that have gone for a driving test satisfied with the service they received from the DVSA, 69% car.

Practical test candidates who have passed satisfied with the service from the UVC, 90%.

Who would have thought that the people that passed have a.

Have a higher satisfaction rate than the people that didn't?

Yes.

Yeah.

It's that thing of, yeah.

If you fail, then you.

Then you're not happy.

It's someone else's problem.

I'm surprised that number's not lower if it's, you know, if there's that divide.

It would be interesting to know the statistic, which I didn't see, of the ones that have failed.

Oh, that's.

That's maths.

So you have to work out the overall minus the other one.

And I'm not doing that now.

We've done maths on the show before, but not tonight.

I think that it's not an interesting number, I don't think.

But it's just I like that you've got the two separated.

It's like, oh, yeah, let's brag about the people that are passing, how happy they are.

It's why I always ask reviews.

Or shouldn't I always try to ask for reviews before I send a learner to test?

Because I want their honest feedback on my performance rather than, oh, I've failed, therefore Terry must be crap.

Oh, I failed, therefore Terry must be awesome.

But either way, a couple of comments or paragraphs, if you like, I'm going to read out just.

I'll read these because I thought they were interesting and then I'll let you share your thoughts.

So first one, Chris.

During the year there were 84,627 avoidable test cancellations, mainly as a result of candidates failing to attend, not bringing the right documents or presenting an ineligible vehicle.

The not attending bit I have issue with because they don't know why they could be, you know, there's lots of reasons for it and from an instructor's perspective, it's highly likely they were told you're not ready and didn't want to cancel the test.

So they were desperately trying to get there where they could find a horse that was acceptable on driving test or something to take around because they couldn't find a car.

But I think those need to be separated out.

I think cars that are turning up that aren't suitable to go out on test.

That's.

Yeah, absolutely.

We should make more of a thing of that.

It doesn't actually detail.

It says it needs to be road worthy and all of those things.

It doesn't say if we had the number.

When you get the booking confirmation, go out and say x number of cars get refused because of a tire problem.

Those sorts of things to highlight what people should check before they go.

There's too many cars that are let out on test.

This is one of my bugbears.

Too many cars that are let out on test with something hanging from the rear view mirror.

No, it's illegal.

They shouldn't go out on test.

So I'd actually have that figure as being a lot higher because anyone turns up with a magic tree.

Not on my watch.

Just be frank on your favorite.

Would you be so petty as to cancel the test or do you just move the thing hanging?

Depends on what mood.

No, just.

It annoys me.

It annoys me most.

And this is, you know, you can hate me for it if you like, because I accept it is a potentially petty thing.

It annoys me most when it's a driving instructor because it's, firstly, it's an mot failure, secondly, and anything else that's an mot failure, the test won't go out.

Secondly, it's dangerous and illegal.

And thirdly, forget all of that.

You've got something in your eye line that your brain is.

If you don't see a problem with it, your brain's ignoring a moving object.

That's not good.

In anyone's world, that's not good.

So I feel that there's mixed standards on that and it's one of those little me things that it annoys me.

But let's have those statistics on there of tires or whether it's turned up and there's a problem with the windscreen or there's a light on the dashboard.

Let's highlight those things because we're saying all these tests were wasted, but if we haven't told them why, if we haven't given them that warning, how easy is it?

Probably not.

Is it to change that automated letter going out?

It took them a year to change the registrars gender.

So did they change registrar's gender or was.

Did this change the word?

It was the word in the letter.

Yeah, it's a technicality because it's a.

It's a legal document, so to change it, it's.

It's effectively got to go through as a.

No, I'm just clarifying that the DVSA did not change the gender of the registrar.

I am.

I am not going to comment because I will get myself into trouble because it's a previous registrar and, yeah, we shared words a few times.

Let's get G Sabini robots on.

I'm going to mention this one.

Adi satisfaction.

Here we go.

This year we have seen an overall satisfaction amongst ADIs improve by three percentage points.

Despite the work undertaken to improve this goal, we fell short of our target of 5% increase.

The positive feedback we received praised our professional examiners detailed good customer service and noted that the rules and standards are clear to understand.

However, areas for improvement include test availability for the pupils, booking process for tests and better communications between DVSA and adIs.

They need to get someone who's even better at loading the questions on the survey and then they'll get those percentage points they missed out on.

Why?

This is a really, I'm guessing a really simple answer to this question that I'm not smart enough to figure out.

Why do they say DVSA and not the DVsA?

I don't know, because then the communication from them, it never says the DVSA always just says DVSAE.

Their name is DVSA, isn't it?

Their name is driver and vehicle standards agency.

It's not a driver and vehicle standard agency.

So surely if you were talking about them, and this isn't me picking fault with them, it's just something I don't understand.

If you were talking about them, you would say the DVSA.

Not just DVSA.

This is my English, where my english language isn't up to scratch.

And I'm curious if you know better than me.

I don't.

Okay, I will send that question to Stuart to ask all day rider.

Yes.

See, that's what we want to do.

Mundane questions and see just how many could be asked.

Yeah.

What did you have for breakfast this morning?

Okay, that's all I want to cover on the part.

Unless you've got anything you want to answer that, add on to that onto the report, Chris.

No, I accept they have to produce these things and that, you know, whoever wrote it could have been on the front line doing the job that we need them doing instead.

But fine, it needs to go out there.

It needs to be done.

Apparently it's not going to change anything.

It gave us something to talk about.

So, yeah, that's all good.

We'll just carry on with doing the actual job that we're doing, shall we?

So Penny has stated in the chart when she's writing, she states DvSAE nor the.

And that must be what it is.

I just don't know why.

I don't know what I do.

And you've asked me the question now.

So now I really don't know what I do.

At least I've got the title for the show as well.

Any other news we want to comment on today, Chris, before we move on to the main topics of the show?

No, it's been quite quiet still, hasn't it?

We've seen this before and I think it's been a fairly quiet year, as in there's lots of little bits on you was, but nothing dramatic.

And I think we should probably be grateful for small mercies.

William?

Yeah.

Were not there yet.

I know the big upcoming thing is the one that is already bubbling away, which is to per mile tax costs as to whether they come in.

And I know thats a concern in the industry.

I dont think weve got news on it yet because nothings been confirmed or, or anything else as the DITC.

I have written to NASP and asked them, what are they doing to protect instructors?

So that we're at least considered as to whether there should be some dispensation or some kind of recognition of the fact of what we're doing as a job.

Because actually, if we're getting more people on the road, we're making them more money, so they should invest in us.

We've probably got the best case for someone who wants to raise money, as in accrue funds.

We are a golden goose, producing drivers that are going to be investing in the country.

Therefore there should be no tax for driving instructors.

The Ditc will stand on that one.

I think the government would take the complete opposite view and they will be saying that paper mile is coming in because of environmental issues.

They will use that as a big thing, so they will not want us putting more people on the road.

So they will look at it from the old perspective, potentially.

I think that.

I don't want to gloss over this, I don't want to dismiss it, because I think people are right to have it as a concern and it should be something we start thinking about.

I do want to say, if you are stressing over this, if you are panicking, try not to get too stressed.

Try to reach out to someone like a Chris Benstead, like a Terry Cook or whatever, and have a conversation and start seeing, and maybe we'll do this on the next screaming match with Chris, see if we can start thinking about what you could do.

Because I don't think just open and leaving the industry is going to be necessary.

I don't know.

And again, I think there's loads of different options here.

Maybe this is worthy of a full topic.

I'm always a bit reluctant because we don't know if it's happening yet.

We could spend hours stressing hours talking about it and then nothing happens.

Yeah, and we already pay a ridiculous amount of per mile tax because that's what fuel's made up of.

There's already these things in there.

We're having something, a change.

None of us like change.

We're having a different approach to things.

All those things.

We're seeing a threat.

There's also a lot of heavy politics on the back of it, literally just the Conservative Labour divide, nothing else, because it's a labor thing, so it's always emotive.

Yeah, we need to wait and see what comes through, but I think there's definitely concerns out there.

And I think let's take the pre Covid, if that's right, or starts of COVID approach that was, you know, we will keep an ear to the ground and we'll make sure we share the information as it comes about and we'll try and poke the people that need to be taking action if they're not.

So if I hear back from NASP, I will let you know.

I mean, just for a second, let's take away the idea whether you agree with the policy or not.

Let's, I don't want to get into the politics, if you like, but you look at London, you've got Eulas in Bradford.

There's a few years ago they implemented, I can't remember the technical name for it now, but it's a, if you, if you are driving professionally, you have to pay to go through some parts of Bradford.

And I get the feeling with you, Les, because I got a bit of an understanding of it and I get that some of it's funded, some of it's not.

You can scrap some cars, you know, I know there's bits of it like that and I'm nowhere near London, I don't, you know.

So I think it's been communicated relatively well in better than the DVSA communicated pedestrians crossing the road and giving way to them.

The one in Bradford was communicated really well.

And I think, again, whether you agree with the policy or not, putting that aside, I think that both policies were implemented quite well.

And I think we almost have a bit of trust after have a bit of trust that it's not just going to be, here's a new policy starting tomorrow.

Go sort yourselves out.

It'll be, look, this is what we're going to have to do.

It'll happen by this time.

This is who itll apply to.

This is who it wont apply to.

Heres what grants you can get this kind of stuff.

I think we have to have a bit of trust and im trying not to get political.

I know its hard to have trust after the last period of government, but I think we have to have a bit of trust that its going to be implemented in a reasonable fashion and then well deal with it.

William, I think the issue with the difference with Ules is Ules, there was an opt out, but there was a cost to the opt out, which was, you know, if you've got a, got an older, older car and some of them weren't that old, but if you've got an older car, a non compliant car, you can change that with the pay per mile as an instructor, there's that risk of are we actually going to endanger road safety?

Because instructors will be trying to manage the mileage.

Specifically to us, as an industry, theres a risk there that is probably not a big enough risk.

This is always our issue, isnt it, as an industry, were too small, were not important enough in the big picture to actually be mentioned in parliament to have that recognition.

But thats possibly nothing.

Not fair in that we influence every single job where they drive a car.

Started with us.

All of those benefits, they started with us.

So actually, maybe we deserve a little bit of an inflated recognition because of that.

Maybe not.

Maybe that's rubbish.

Well, I mean, to go back to the first point you mentioned about the opt out, we don't know if there's going to be an opt out yet.

It may be an opt out.

It may be you don't have to pay if you got an electric car or a petrol car or you don't have to pay for a driving instructor.

We don't know, and this is the problem with this discussion.

There's 17,000 different options we can discuss, and we don't know which one, if any, are going to, going to be implemented.

So I think this is a problem with this discussion.

But I also concur with what you said.

But again, I think it's more, you made the point, I think it's more road safety, that aspect of it, because if we're not giving that correct amount of training, then that impacts safety roads.

Now, the problem there is that no government for the past 20 plus years has given a toss about the people that are on the road.

It's an acceptable, they accept it as part of traveling on the road until the kid dies, then all of a sudden it'll be a problem.

But it's accepted until that point.

But we spoke about this last session, I think last session, jeepers thinking of driving lessons.

We spoke about this on the last green room.

I think that not DITC, ADI and JC are becoming a member of PAX, the parliamentary advisory Council, transport safety sector, something.

Anyway, acronyms, lots of words.

That's going to be the foot in the door.

That's going to be the way into having a voice in these, in the decision making process.

So when you ask what NASP are doing, I wonder if that question might be better directed at the NGSE because they're the ones that are actually there potentially having, having the option because no one else has got the option at the moment.

Yeah, and I've asked individually as well, but through, through the NAS channels, because you get a more interesting answer that way because there's competition going on.

I appreciate they were working together and im a big fan of the work that they do because I see the behind the scenes stuff.

So im never going to knock that.

I think theres way more they can do.

I love the pacts thing.

DITC was asked about pacts and its still on the table as whether wed consider it, whether its worthwhile were the right people for it.

I like the fact that NJC are doing it.

I think theyre a in a better place to do that.

I want, that's the whole point is we want them to be doing the good because we respect the fact they can and that's what they're there for.

So sometimes you need a little bit of pressure, you know, if there's no one there holding you to account that accountability is important.

So hopefully that's, you know, that's probably our number one thing, is that we try to keep people accountable, including ourselves, and maybe well write one of these annual reports and put it out there.

Well, we've got the end of year green room to do, so that counts.

That's as valid as a DVSA report, I would say.

Let's take a moment.

Set the table, Chris.

Remind people who you are, what you do, where you're from, why you're awesome, all those kind of things.

I try and keep track sometimes forget who I am.

But yes, I am Chris Benstead, driving instructor without a car because I'm now a theory specialist, but I'm also an audit trainer.

But I head the ditc along with my colleague Ian Brett.

We won't fight out who's more important, which is signposting platform for the industry.

If you've got a problem and you don't know how to solve it, get in touch.

And if we don't know, we'll point you to Terry.

And if you want anything more instructor podcast related, go to www.theinstructorpodcast.com where you can find all kind of simple steps.

And I'm pissing off at least three people with that to find out how you can become an even more awesome driving instructor, including the membership, which has a one week free trial.

So go and sign up www.theinstructorpodcast.com.

but we are going to dive into some listener questions because on the last green room, number 42, we'd asked for questions beforehand and we got a shed load and because we've got some really good listeners who are really good questions, so we didn't have time to get through them all.

So let's finish off with these, Chris.

We're going to finish, not finish.

We're going to start with a question from Chris Keough, which is finishing off his questions because it's the last one that we didn't get to.

What do you feel are the key skills of a driver learner?

That is awareness, planning, judgment, decision making, scanning ahead, etcetera.

What are the key skills of a driver learner?

We don't let blind people drive.

So I always think that it comes down to that.

Anyone can drive as long as they meet the criteria, visions, just that one thing that is there, and if you can see it, you can do something about it.

So my go to is always observation, because you create time.

And driving instructors often talk about making space.

I don't agree.

We make time.

That's what space gives us.

So actually, time is the big factor.

We can't, you know, we can take steps to give us more of that.

And the biggest thing is observation.

Then the other thing, statistically, experience.

And that should be our job, really, is racking up the experience, because if you.

If you've got that.

I don't know if that's a skill experience, is it?

It's an odd one, but all the stats check out the TRL.

TRL transport research.

Yes.

God, the two of us.

And letters that check out the TRL reports, and all of them state age and experience are the two key factors with road safety.

And they're not connected.

They're separate from each other.

They kind of run in parallel, but they're not linked directly in that way.

Experience is key.

So observational skills and experience and those two things probably make up for a, you know, for a multitude of other stuff.

And the other stuff, I mean, you don't get anywhere.

You know, if your clutch control is not very good, it's unlikely to cause you a massive issue because you just won't.

You'll learn because you'll be fed up with stalling all the time, or whatever it might be.

But those other skills are much further reaching.

I think the one I'd add on, because I agree what you've said would be thinking.

So someone that's actually thinking about what they're doing, rather than just plodding along.

And I know we all get like that sometimes, you know, when we drive in, sometimes you'll drive and go, oh, how did I get here?

You know, you have that moment, or.

Which has just made me then think, I hate it when you do this.

So, yeah, answer a question.

No, make me think.

I don't apologize.

This is why I don't look at questions before we start, because then it keeps me awake at night.

Um.

Uh.

So, effectively, that thinking and reflection, that goes together, and we know that that's been one of the big developments in the industry.

You've annoyed me because reflection was going to be my next point and now you interrupted me installing my next point, but go on.

But I could, you know, that wasn't.

Wasn't the thing that you made me think of.

Um.

It's the being accountable, that bit.

Because so often.

We'll go, it was so and so's fault that driver pulled out in front of me.

They're the problem.

Look at all these other drivers.

They're all idiots, actually.

That thing of holding yourself to account, because if you do that, you're always going to want to improve and you're going to recognize the issues when they come around.

Sorry, I got slightly overexcited about that one.

Let's move on to the next question.

This is from Michelle Holmes.

There's a couple of questions here and to which she apologizes, for which you never need to apologise for asking more than one question, but I'm going to read them all as one because they're all kind of interlinked and then we can answer them as we deem fit.

So Michelle asks, how can we control road rage?

This week has been one of the worst driving weeks for dealing with aggressive people on the roads, and today alone there have been multiple incidents.

Do you think the two are related, and how can we improve our roads and the people on them?

My question is, what do we mean by control road rage?

Because you can't do anything about other people in that way.

In general terms, are we talking about teaching?

Are we trying to find skills to help people so they don't suffer road rage or fall victim of it, because we've all done it all in our little metal box and get stroppy?

Well, I interpret that as how do we control it?

As in our road ridge.

So when someone is causing these problems on the road, how do we control our emotions and our road ridge?

But let's answer the questions you deem appropriate.

Chris.

Yeah.

The meaning of the question is the answer it receives, as we know.

So NLP quote.

So, more letters.

I'm not going there.

So I think something as an instructor, something I really value, is the recognition wave.

So you're there with your pupil, who's stalled for the hundredth time in front of the car, behind.

I think we can be working hard to deal with it.

And we can go, well, there's an l plate.

It's obvious it's not their fault, they're a learner.

Surely it's obvious.

Or we can go, we've got this, give us a sec, we're on it.

And potentially remove ourselves from the situation so we're not causing that ongoing problem.

We know it's part of the job and part of the situation, but actually if it's happened a few times, maybe you should step in and not let them suffer and the people behind suffer.

But that acknowledging wave and recognizing that maybe if you've got a tinted rear window and they can't see you.

The lack of that acknowledgement, I very, very rarely found that I would get people beeping their horns at me.

And I worked in the southeast London area, so people love a beeping horn in the south east London area, normally leaning out the window of a white van shouting abuse.

But it didn't happen often.

I think it's because I would try to just recognize that I'm here and I'm trying to do something about it.

It's not me that stalled, but I'm part of the solution and that acknowledgement and trying to do that smiling works as well.

There's huge studies on the fact that people will do more if you smile.

So if you're coming out of junctions and things, you know, those sorts of things inject a bit of friendliness into driving because it.

The problem with road rage is that it's not human beings, it's cars.

And then the other thing that I teach everybody is that if someone does something wrong or, you know, they cut you up, they pull out in front of you, whatever it might be, they need a way, right?

So it's my answer because we can all empathize with that.

We've all been there.

And you kind of think, well, maybe something's happening in their life.

That means that there's a reason that they've done that.

They might just be a prat, but that doesn't help us.

So let's take a view where actually we're taking it as something beneficial and positive.

So if we can have a positive mindset that way because we can't control other people and then listen to a book called Flipnosis, I say listen to a book.

Sorry, I only do audiobooks.

Other people read them and they come on paper, but anyway.

But it's available on audiobook flipnosis, which is by a guy whose name is escaping me, but he worked with psychopaths.

I think he wrote the good psychopath guide?

If not, it's the other psychopath book.

They're both worth a look and some awesome ways of kind of manipulating a situation to get the positive out of it with a throwaway line or an attitude.

All driving instructors should check that out because there's some really good stuff in there.

I'm still stumbling over that many uses of word psychopath in an answer to that question.

He's a good thing.

The.

The thing I would add on to that is viewing stuff as a learning opportunity.

I suppose this applies when you've got your student with you, so everything's a learning opportunity.

And I just think we can use it that way and we can ask them, how do you feel now someone's done that?

You know, if your students get annoyed, that's a learning opportunity to help them for post test, you know, to help them manage that now.

And that can just be that conversation.

You see them getting stressed.

Do you want to pull up for a minute?

And nine times out of ten they'll say, yeah, because they're getting stressed.

So you pull up and then you say, you know, when you get stressed after your test, how are you going to do that?

And I just pulled up.

Yeah.

Okay, cool.

You know, whatever.

Do you know what I'm always.

I've got to be in my bonnet at the minute about something different I'm going to mention now.

And it's what I've just said there.

I've annoyed myself.

I've simplified that whole process down.

Say this to your student.

Your student will say yes, then it's done and it's solid.

Sometimes it works like that.

Sometimes you'll have to do it five or six times.

It doesn't always work first time.

So when you get trained, as I say, just do a, b, C and then you're well away.

Yes, that's a good starting point, but sometimes it takes a bit more.

Anyway, off topic, back to topic.

But yeah, everything's learning opportunity.

I spoke about this a little bit on one of the episodes with Laura Morris.

I think it may have been the road safety one.

So when someone else does something aggressive on the road and your student covers for it, ask them who made that safe.

And they love it.

It's like, oh, I did.

And it's teaching them to be safe and prepare for that stuff on the road.

And I think when it's yourself, I always say we can't control our reactions, but we control our reactions to our reactions.

So someone cuts me up.

My first instinct is to swear or say smoke.

But as soon as I've done it, it's like, okay, right now you can rein your neck in, because I don't want to be annoyed.

On my way home, I want to listen to my podcast or my book about psychopaths or whatever.

So, yeah, hold back a bit.

Give me a bit of space.

I'd rather have him in front of me than behind me.

Off I go.

So I think there's lots of different things we could do.

I think try different stuff, you know, try some of the stuff we've just said.

Again, whether this is with you, whether it was for your learners, whether it's handling other people are being aggressive, try some of the stuff we've spoke about there.

But I would also, in the nicest possible way, and I think this is touching.

Back on some of you said, Chris, making sure that.

That you're not the problem.

I'm not necessarily directing this at you, Michelle, that asks the question, but making sure that you're not the problem.

Because I do wonder about sometimes the instructors that complain about getting beeped all the time.

Well, you know, I'm still single.

I've been single two years.

Is it me that's the problem?

It might be because people keep turning me down, you know, is it the instructor that's the problem?

If they're getting beeped out all the time, are they putting that student in that situation before they're ready to be in that situation?

And then again.

And then again.

So, again, I'm not directing that at you, Michelle.

That's a question, but maybe that's something you consider as well.

It looks like you want to comment on that, Chris.

No, I'm desperately not wanting to answer the question about whether it's you or it's me 100%.

Seriously, you haven't asked me out yet, so it's fine.

Oh, no, here we go.

This is a proper diversion.

I have no problem asking people.

I have no problem with people saying yes.

So second date, I struggle with.

I don't.

I don't always make a good first impression, but that's a me problem.

If it's recurring over and over again, the chances are it's not their issue.

It's my issue, and I'm applying that to the driving through the stuff as well.

You know, if.

If my students keep stalling, like when they're not supposed to be stalling, you know, for example, well, what are you supposed to stall when you let them, when you practice on that?

On your first.

Last one, you said you want to see what I still think.

Okay, no, that's fine.

Yeah.

Okay.

But, like, if they're at a point where they don't expect them to stall, and they keep stalling, and it's with all your students, and the chances are it's something you're doing, not them.

Yes.

Or not doing equally.

Feel like I covered a well, we covered a lot in that one.

Okay, next question from Andrew Rogers.

Do you think it would help if examiners had a bit more discretion to pass candidates who they are currently failing for one serious fault, but reckon recognize they can drive very well and we're back as soon as they can get another appointment and pass next time?

Conversely, they could be allowed to fail some that they are currently passing but recognize their driving is a bit sketchy.

Or would this be to God, this can't do this word to anarchy.

I got that right.

Yes.

Excellent.

Right.

So I'm going to chip in with this first because I've got my bee in my bonnet over this as well.

And it's what I've been speaking about a lot recently as well.

And I think Xamarin has said it to me recently, and they got out.

I'm annoyed about to fail this student, but I have to.

The mistake they made, to be fair, I think he was being a little bit harsh, got a bit too close to a car, and he said there was no room for error, no margin for error, but that was the fault.

There was no driver fault, sir.

And I'm like, he didn't hit it.

You know, I could let him off, but either way, he didn't want to fail her.

It's like, I have to for this, but I don't want to.

And they were telling me this, but I had someone earlier that I think it was like 14 or 15 faults, and I didnt want to pass him, but I had nothing to fear him on.

So I think that what Andrew said there, for me, yeah.

Unfortunately, that would mean an overhaul of the system because itll completely change the way that theyre testing from a specific fault based system to an assessment of a drive.

But, yeah, id be all in favor of that.

Where do you stand, Chris?

I think there's a need for the understanding of how the system works.

And time and time again, I come across the examiner instructor divide on that because it's based on risk weighting.

So the weighting of risk, a serious fault and a driver fault are the same thing.

The differences, how serious it was.

So those serious faults are what were deemed too, too heavy to, to be to be driver faults.

So they are serious.

So what we're saying is there's a serious error and we're letting them pass anyway.

The.

If it was that, I think, you know what, what we're being asked is actually it happens anyway.

There's things that happen that get marked as a driver fault because actually, I don't want that to be, you know, it wasn't enough.

There wasn't enough effect on that.

We don't see that as instructors.

We see, was it right or was it wrong?

You know, not.

Not that weighting of it in the same way.

And so I think it happens already and I'm not keen on.

If you look at the statistics of how successful people are after they pass their test, we're letting people through who go on to crash in the first six months.

So lowering the standard doesn't seem like a sensible thing.

Now, the alternative would be they spoke about it in Ireland and I don't believe it actually happened.

I haven't heard anything about it since.

Was that at the end of the test, the examiner was able to have a conversation and off the back of that conversation they were potentially able to change the weighting by saying, right, so this situation happened.

Tell me about it.

And if they felt that that person went, oh, yeah, if I just spotted that earlier, I would have kept further back.

Or, you know, they've got that understanding of it because we've all been there and we've all cocked up yellow boxes.

It's so easy to think it's clear and then something happens and you go, oh, I'm not.

It's not.

Not panned out as I thought it was going to.

You know, those things.

Things happen that maybe.

Yeah, maybe there should be some.

Some ability to weight it slightly differently.

I don't think so.

I think I quite like the idea of having that conversation at the end in a way that's down to the individual candidate's ability to converse after a stressful driving test.

That seems unfair.

So, you know, there's always ones that we disagree with, and it's so annoying when it's one serious fault and a clean sheet otherwise, but it's a serious fault, it's not a driver fault.

It was heavy enough to be deemed.

Now, whether you agree with them or not, that's different.

If there's a problem and if you're looking at that and going, oh, I don't.

I'm not quite sure, then firstly, there's always a line and there's always some that are very close to that line.

But secondly, then we need to challenge how it's being done.

Is it being done fairly and, you know, and looking at those, at those kind of things.

Yeah.

I don't think.

I think the concept.

Love it in practice.

I.

I don't think we can have just the public understanding of being.

Well, actually, the examiner could have passed me.

It needs to, because that's.

Again, that's.

Then the examiner failed me, not.

I failed myself.

I didn't reach the standard.

I think that's a massive can of worms.

And although, yeah, say, the COVID of the book looks lovely, I think it's going to be very confusing once you get into the actual application of it.

William, I like the answer, and you made me rethink what I said a little bit.

But I think what I will say is it's not necessarily low in the standard, because if you look at the flip side of the coin, you're saying that someone's got 15 driver faults, and the examiner's thinking, I didn't feel safe in this car, so I'm going to fail you.

So he's taking that person off the road, which is essentially raising the standards.

But on the other side, the example you said about someone having a serious fault enough would be lowering the standard.

So you might be raising the standard on one side and lowering it on the other, but that's where that element of discretion would come into play.

And I think now you've said that, maybe you've made me rethink my answer slightly.

I like the idea of it.

Maybe that's what you're saying as well.

Like the colour of the book.

I like the idea of it.

I think.

I still think the whole system needs an entire overhaul.

But the one example that I'm going to give actually, is very specific example.

A few years ago, before COVID I had a student that I'd had two students, or maybe more than two, might be free in a row, fail a test for not stopping at a stop sign.

So I got a bee in my bonnet about this.

Now tell all my students.

And we did some extra work.

Of all my students on stop signs, I've noticed three in a row.

So it's like, okay, this might be a me problem.

And this student went on a test and she came back with a clean sheet.

And the examiner looked at her, he looked at me and he looked at her and looked at me and he looked at her and went, what does stop mean?

What does a stop sign mean?

And the student just looked at me and went, I'm sorry, Terry.

And the next time I went, no, no, no, what does stop mean?

What does that solid white line mean?

And that stops.

And she goes, it means come to, like a proper stop.

And the examiner thought for a second, he went, congratulations on this time.

You've passed your test and I'm giving you one dryer fault because you kind of stopped and I'm going to let you.

And I'm like.

And I liked that.

I liked that a lot.

Not just because it was passed to my student, because that is that examiner doing what you've just said.

They were on about an island, potentially.

Although I also get what you're saying about if my student had got a bit stressed and said, I don't know, then potentially that wouldn't have gone the same way.

But whether that's unfair or not, I don't know, because you're almost giving them another lifeline.

Yes, I have issues with stop junctions.

I've always struggled squaring myself away with it because I get it.

But then I really.

There is a grey in there and they're there because of the gray.

And I just.

Yeah.

My favourite story is that the police officer pulls over the lawyer for not stopping and the lawyer argues what the meaning of the word stop is.

So the police officer says, right, I'm going to pull out my truncheon and start hitting you and we'll decide which version of the word stop you want me to use.

But yeah, a rolling stop was one that one of the local test centre managers used in a meeting.

I never saw him again afterwards.

He disappeared.

What's a rolling stop?

It's not stopping.

I wish I brought this up.

I don't want to get into the definition of stop.

I can't do that tonight.

That's enough that I see enough debate on Facebook.

You don't need to put your handbrake on.

That's the one thing I'm going to.

Say, but you, apparently you have to put it into neutral.

I got told the other day, let's not do this.

Let's not do this.

Let's move on.

Before clutch or clutch, before.

Sally Marley asks a question specifically for you, Chris.

I've heard Chris say something along the lines of students failing their theory by only one mark shows up a whole bigger underlying issue.

Could he please expand on this and explain more fully what it means?

I have several students in this category who refuse to pay for outside help.

I tried to refer them to Chris as it.

As it's only one mark to a pass.

So I'll just keep trying and then repeatedly failing.

Now, just before you answer this question, Chris, I'm going to quiz.

Called you with a queue.

Then I'm going to ask you a separate question, which is.

And you may have one already, but either way, can you record a short, like, one to three minute video explaining this for the benefit of learner drivers that you can share on your social share to us so we can then pass on to our students?

Yes.

Excellent.

Now, onto Sally's question.

Yeah.

If I don't do it, nudge me and remind me, because I might forget, but, yeah, absolutely.

So it seems like you're really close and I think there's a massive danger from that.

But if we start at the beginning, naught to 50, every number you go up, the gap between that one and the next one seems to get bigger.

So once you're into the forties, the gap between 40 and 41 is.

Is quite big.

40 to 42 is even bigger than that, because it shows something.

There's something in there, in the way that the questions work.

I don't know what.

I'm not that clever, but I'm good at pattern spotting.

And it is.

You see it all the time.

The biggest thing is you'll get.

People will get to the point at which they hit the glass ceiling, which is different for each of them, but they'll get the same score over and over and over again.

And there's certain people who are getting the 42 out of 42, failing by one, failing by eight, but anyway, failing by one and just keep trying isn't the solution.

And it's the definition of insanity, isn't it?

Is to do the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result.

We need to change something, and I think that the majority of that is from the point of view of the way that we cover it in the first place.

What we're doing is we're teaching them.

It's rote learning.

We're teaching them the answers to the questions.

There's no understanding needed in the revision approach.

You've just got to remember the answers.

There's no level of comprehension needed for when the question is different.

Will they understand it because it's just by rote?

The only real solution at the moment is go away and do some sessions with someone or read the books.

Driving essential skills and highway code, the two key ones.

That's where they get the stuff.

Know your traffic signs as well.

But it's always the poor second cousin, isn't it?

But those books are where they get the.

If it's not in those books.

They can't put it on the test.

On top of that, there's a real issue from the DBSA, which is something that I have addressed, and I'm waiting to see whether it changes.

The revision question department, the publication team are allowed to write questions for the revision apps for the.

For the revision database.

And they used to be the same as the actual test questions and then separated.

So the revision question team write the revision questions.

The test engine team write the test questions.

They're in different departments, which are in different directorates, and they don't talk to each other.

So the longer time goes bye, the further apart the questions get from the revision questions to the actual test questions.

The way they're written is different as well.

There's a lot of these different factors, but this kind of bottoming out, hitting the ceiling.

I'm mixing my metaphors, but that 42 out of 42 is a definite symptom of a problem, and I'm trying to figure out exactly what that is.

I think it's a real mix of different things.

The initial thing is making sure that you do rules and exceptions, because it's confusing.

And you encourage.

Define words as well.

Define words in the car, because that will help.

And what I would just say, because I appreciate that people don't like paying out for outside help, etcetera.

There's.

I'm happy to work with driving instructors, get in touch, but I start at free, so get them to come for the free help, you know, chuck them onto the socials.

But I'll happily have a look at how they're getting on and stuff like that.

So get in touch.

We'll have a chat.

Because there's me, the commercial me, that's the theory trainer.

But there's a really annoyed person that hates problems that I can't solve.

So, you know that that's the other side of me that likes to kind of fix that.

And if that's the issue, then let's talk to those people and figure out how we can change that perspective.

But the biggest thing is that we as an industry, need to change how it works, because we are crap at theory.

Anyone that wants that video, just message Chris and use the phrase where's my fail by one video.

So as many people as possible, message Chris with that.

And a, he might do it, and then b, he might send you a link.

Let's move on to the next question.

And this is from Sarah Baldock, who says, I may be too late with this.

You're not, because we are monthly, but I was listening to Ray on the podcast earlier.

I wholeheartedly agree with and do most of the things with learners that he talked about, exposing them to as much real life stuff as possible.

I am fortunate that I largely attract the sort of student who wants to and is able to take their time with theyre learning so we can do more of the real life stuff.

However, not every student wants that.

There are obviously some who just want to pass as quickly as possible.

How do we handle them and how do we ensure they are as safe as possible in what is sometimes a limited timeframe?

Any tips?

Greatly received?

I am going to start off with this one, Chris, because guess what?

This is another thing that I be in my bonnet about, and ive been talking about it a lot recently on multiple different podcasts, most of which werent my own.

But you used a really, really key phrase there, Sarah, and that was safe as possible.

That's not safe.

That's safe as possible.

You need to make that driver as safe as possible as they can be.

So you just need to improve them.

So, for example, and I'm going to use the really crude scale area of one to ten as, you know, like a road safety attitude.

One being you don't care how many people you kill on the road, ten being the immaculate, you know, second coming of road safety writer man.

And somewhere on that scale.

So if you take someone from a seven to a nine, that's the same as taking someone from a two to a four, you've had the same impact.

And if anything, taking someone from two to a four is probably harder because they're in that awkward place to begin with.

But you've had exactly the same impact on those students, and you should take as much pride in that.

You're highly unlikely to get someone again, using my really crude scale from a two to a nine, it's highly unlikely because that person's already all the way down there.

You will need an awful long time with that person, but what you can do is to make them as safe as possible for that person.

So if you take them from a two to a four or two to a five, you might be the difference that stops that person using their phone while they're driving.

You might be the difference that stops that person having a drink before the drive or that makes them think, I'm feeling quite ill today.

Still want to go to work?

I'm going to get a taxi.

You may not have the overwhelming thing where you change everything, but you might be the thing that makes them change that one thing about their driving.

So you can't always take everyone to a ten, but you can make them as safe as that person can possibly be.

So just use that phrase that you did.

The same approach you use with the others who do really well, usually the ones with a bad attitude, but you just have to accept you can't take them as far.

And just as a personal example, for me, this is something I've learned with the road safety stuff for driving instructors.

Look at what you're doing, Sarah.

I mean, other people doing it as well.

But you asked the question, look what you're doing, Sarah.

Well, that's awesome.

And part of that tiny little bit is because of you hearing what I've said and the podcasts and guests and stuff like that.

Well, there's a lot of people that listen to what we talk about that just ignore it.

Well, I might take them from a two to a three, but where are you?

You're a nine, potentially, but I have to accept that not everyone's going to be where you are.

But if I just said, oh, I can't deal, can't do this, then there'd be no podcast and then maybe you wouldn't be a nine, maybe you'd be a seven.

I don't know.

I'm using crude analogies there, but it's just make them as safe as you can.

That's it.

I think the key phrase was one of the first things that Sarah said, which was that she's really lucky that the type of pupils she gets are generally quite embracing of it.

That's not luck.

That's what Sarah does.

That's who Sarah is.

That's the instructor that she's portraying and who people are coming to, and we attract those things by being who we are.

So if we then, if we had good Sarah and bad Sarah, and knowing Sarah, that's a scary concept.

If we had the bad Sarah, who was test focused, only took test routes, literally, just did everything to a minimum all the time, and attracted those pupils that wanted that because they're misguided and misled, because I haven't ever met a single pupil who doesn't want to be safe.

It's just that they don't know what safe is.

They don't recognize it, they don't see the risks or the dangers.

If we compare those two, the good Sarah, which is the one we've got, is the one that's winning.

Is everyone going to come along and have seen that and engage with that?

No, potentially don't teach them say to them this is what I do, it's up to you whether you engage with it or not and then have some evidence to back up why they should and try and portray that in a way that says look, my pupils are safer after their test this.

If that's not what they're shopping for, you're not going to be able to sell it to them.

If you then do still have those pupils then just make sure you're still selling the real don't sacrifice what you offer to meet with them.

And I get it 100%.

You've got the time scales of they've got a test at the end of the week and you can only work with what you've got.

And everything that Terry just said I totally agree with, but dont sacrifice your values for that.

If theyre not there you dont take them to test is the bottom standard of that.

But actually look at the techniques and approaches that you value and go all right, how can I give them a bit of that even if I cant give them all of it?

And how can I do that?

You come home and the cupboard is bare.

You can only work with the ingredients you've got so make the best out of that that you can.

And everything tastes better with bacon.

Annoyingly, I agree.

It's where you draw the line, I think, at what student you take on or keep because there are some students over the years where I've turned them away or stopped working with them because I, I don't trust I'm going to be able to get this person to well, I trust I'll be able to pass a test but I don't trust I'll be able to get them safe after their test and I don't want my name associated with them, I don't want to be responsible for that person post test.

And then there are others where I've gone, I think I can make a difference.

I can't get them all away but I can make a difference and that's most.

To be fair it's very rare that I actually say no to someone and.

But it's working out where you draw that line and like Chris said, you know, you know, you can't sacrifice what you do.

You might adapt it, you might, you might even lower your standards slightly for some of it, you know, if let's use motorways as an example, I think I tend to do like now, four or 6 hours with most of my students but like there are some that just say can we just get on them for a little bit.

They don't want to go and do a four six hour session or two three hour sessions or whatever.

It's like, yeah, I'd rather.

Because if you want with me, you go to.

Another instructor wouldn't do any motorways at all.

So the 2 hours with me is better than none.

And or you could go the complete opposite and go down the, the rob cooling route and go and check out his episode of the podcast, because it's awesome talking about this, where this is what you do with Rob.

You, you do 12 hours of motorway driving or something.

I think it might be more than that, but it's hundreds of miles of motorway driving.

No one goes with him unless they do that.

If you refuse to do it, you don't go with Rob.

Simple as that.

So there's different ways you can take there, but it's wearing you working out where you have that cut off line.

And Rob's is right, really high.

Mine's a bit more.

I'm going to use my discretion because I know I can make a difference to this person.

And some instructors go, well, I'll just take anyone on because guess what?

They're paying me so, you know, if they fail and kill someone afterwards, not my fault.

I'm not responsible for what they do on test or post test, if they kill someone.

Yeah.

My value has always been the willingness to learn that a lot of the time we've all had this.

You must be really patient to be a driving instructor.

Anyone that knows me knows that's not true.

I'm not testing patients.

Absolutely I'm not patient.

What I've figured out is I am accepting.

If that is the level at which you are at, then I am happy to work at that level for as long as I need to.

As long as you are giving me something in the way of investment in yourself.

If youre trying the second people dont try.

I dont give people a second chance very often in that way because I would rather go and help someone that wants the help.

Because there's only so much of me to go round, admittedly probably too much, but for some people, but there's only so much.

So I'd rather do stuff that firstly I enjoy.

I don't want to teach those people that have got those limitations.

I tend to say no, but I accept I'm in a privileged position for it.

And you don't always know up front.

I love the concept of interviewing every pupil before you go there.

Get them to prove themselves, you know, do an audition type lesson to go are you going to work well with me and all those concepts?

Yeah, it's great.

I don't think it necessarily works in the real world very well unless you're lucky enough to have an excess of pupils and a model in which you can facilitate it.

But some of that's choices.

Yeah.

When I say that, as the person who is loving the fact I'm not out on the road anymore, and interestingly, it just makes me think.

This week I had my first self confessed petrol head, who a lot of the session started talking about whether he can modify his car and what he could get away with without telling insurance, potentially because he didn't want to put insurance up, or how much is a black box going to stop me having fun.

They're a conversation I haven't had for a long time because they're not the focus of the theory test and by default, I've ended up being more test focused in that way.

It was really interesting and I don't want him to fail his theory test, I want him to get the help he needs before he passes practical test.

And if that involves him coming back to me and me getting to do some more with him, then I'm not going to complain if that's the way dice are rolled.

And then I was having a conversation off the back of that.

About two of my most memorable pupils were ones that were really challenging and both of them, one of them had a really nasty near miss.

But actually it all ended up okay.

But it was luck, not anything else.

He phoned me up from the scene to talk it through because it was me or his mum and I couldn't take his keys off him and we did not get on, we did not gel.

He was hard work, but obviously I made enough of an impact and he took it on board and he gave me all the right answers.

He talked it through, not me.

And then the other one was one who all his mates were boy racers, and he said, I get what you're trying to teach me, but that driver doesn't have any friends.

And he messaged me a few months afterwards saying, I've managed to achieve both.

And we did that by looking at, I suppose, what you would call coin advanced driving skills.

So if he was going to go and push his luck a bit, at least he understood what he was doing and we worked on that side of it.

So I found a way of selling it to him, if you like.

And it.

It worked.

And interestingly quick bit of math.

Seven years later, he sent me a message that he'd met someone who works in the driver training industry.

Didn't know if I knew them, could he put them in touch and say, we're still in touch on that level.

And he's running a company with another one of my ex pupils who I've now hooked up with a friend of mine, and they're going to work together.

So it's the way the world works.

I think, if you do it positively that they're the things that come out of it.

So if you're.

Don't sell your soul.

You don't need to.

You can just say no.

But if you want to, if you want to try and solve that, solve that problem.

Yeah.

Don't expect perfection every time.

As Terry said, get what you can from it.

And if life gives you lemons, Fiona McMeeking asks.

I've currently been noticing a lot of international license holders arriving at the test centre car park.

Car unmarked, park up, get out, stick the l plates on and then attend the test.

After failing l plates, back in the boot, drive out of the car park.

Now, I know the requirements that they have a year are blah, blah, blah.

That's not me saying blah, blah, blah, that's Fiona.

But they've failed and they are not of a standard for UK roads.

My question.

Fail.

Revert to provisional and entitlement to drive unaccompanied on our roads.

Withdrawn.

So if they start doing three or four.

So if they start doing tests three to four months in and then fail, then taken off the road effectively, that may encourage most to take lessons before attending instead of jeepers.

Let me try that again.

That may encourage most to start taking lessons before attending instead of failing a bunch of times and then still driving on the roads.

Yes from me.

Yes from me.

Okay, so I think we've got enough time to run through and pick who would we be going to see at the expo?

Chris?

The Adi NJC and intelligent insured expo.

Now, we're not promoting it because it's on the day this is released.

You know, whatever.

But I'm intrigued to see who we can annoy and who we can make happy.

So I'm going to list off the free and you tell me who you would go and see.

Chris and I will do the same.

it's Ray Seagrave, whose topic is.

Thank you.

I really enjoyed my lesson today in the Lew Walsh PDI zone.

It's Dave Harvey of the AA driving school lesson planning problem to solution.

it's Emma Cossington.

Human relationships, mental health and driver training.

This snug marry kill is this.

No, no, don't want to annoy too many people.

Just choose who you would go and watch and why.

Out of those three, do you know, it's really difficult because for different reasons it would be between is Dave from the AA, isn't it?

Yeah, because I don't know Dave.

Everyone knows a dave.

I don't know this Dave.

So I'm kind of interested in someone that I haven't experienced before because I know the other two.

But I would probably go and listen to Emma because you can never go wrong listening to Emma.

See, it's easy for me this one, because I would always pick Emma because everyone that knows I'm the biggest fan going.

I'm like a fanboy of Emma Cottington.

I love what she does.

And if anyone's not in the instructor podcast premium, just sign up for a free trial and go listen to her first Adi recordings that she's done.

There's like three and a half hours to 4 hours worth of content there.

And you will not hear anything better around mental health and mindset than what's there.

Just even if you don't stay for anything else, just sign up, cancel and then listen to them.

Honestly, I'm gonna say you get your money's worth.

It's free, so you definitely get your money's worth.

But yes.

Okay, both of us for Emma Cottington then.

Next up is at 945.

So on the live stage, aka the instructor podcast stage, Dave Mann and Colin Stewart from the DVSA are explaining the benefits of using your driving test analysis report and accompanying driving tests.

The Lewalsch PDI zone has Philip Cowley and Diana Todd adapting the lesson to succeed in the part three and standards check.

And then in seminar room two, it's doctor Julia Malkin MBE struggle with this word, dyscalcula and the traffic lights.

Who are you going to see, Chris?

Um, probably go and see Phil and Diana.

Um, because I get irate if I go and listen to the DVSAE.

Yeah, no, I'd probably go and see Phil and Diana.

Julia is always interesting to listen to.

I don't think we've got enough sen stuff in the industry so fully support that.

But yeah, for my interest, even if it's just so I can heckle them, I do it for that reason.

But people normally walk away with some nice ideas.

It's nice to hear what people say.

See, for me on this one, it would be the DVSA.

Because I think I'm intrigued to see what they say the benefits of using your driving test analysis report and accompanying driving tests are.

I think I'm with you on doctor Julia Malkin.

I think this is my weak point.

It's not high on my list of priorities is the sen stuff.

Uh, I need to get better at it, so maybe that's one I should attend.

But I think I'm more intrigued by the DVSA.

And the thing with Phil and Diana is that talking about the part three and Sanders, check if I'll be asleep.

And no offense to them, but that's not interesting to me.

Um, that sounds really offensive to them, and I don't mean it that way.

I hear you.

No, I.

Absolutely.

Yeah, I.

I know.

I do.

You know, if I'm really honest, that's the point of probably going to get a cup of coffee and have something to it.

Well, I think we should clarify here that again, I'm not going to decide if I'm going until Saturday night.

But you're definitely going, Chris.

But we're not saying we are going to see all of these people.

We're just saying that if we were choosing, this is the day we have.

Mike Fowler is talking about how can the teaching and learning style be suited to the examiner's expectations.

The lew Walsh PDI zone has Jeff Lucas of Aat.

How to massively simplify the 17 competencies.

Not even acronym.

Seminar room 210 30 is Dan Hill of my drive time.

How to handle pricing.

If I was choosing for other people, I'd say go and see Dan.

But he's my really good mate.

And we chat so much that I've probably heard it, so I probably wouldn't.

So I would go and hear what Mike has to say because I think he's really underrated.

No.

Just sounded rude about him.

Not at all.

I think he.

Everyone thinks his shit, but is not.

No.

People I know, I like when, when I hear him talk about stuff.

I really like what he says, but I don't hear him talk that much.

So.

Yeah, so I like Mike.

I'd probably go and listen to Mike.

I don't know.

And this is, you know, is my fault.

I don't know.

Is it Jeff?

Yeah.

Yes.

I don't think I know Jeff Lucas.

I might do.

I'm lousy with names.

I don't think I do, being that simplifying the 17 competencies is kind of my bag and a drum I beat.

My ego probably won't take it, so I'll probably avoid it.

I have no idea who Jeff is.

I do like Mike, much like you, but he's someone you have to listen to because when you talk to him, you can't get a word in Edwards.

I think I would be keen to listen to Dan on this simply because I recorded with him for about an hour and 15 minutes.

It was last month on the topic of pricing, and I'm seen to see how he gets that into 25 to 30 minutes from an hour and 15.

So I think that would intrigue me more than anything else.

The live stage, aka the podcast stage.

David Leverton of Bill plant driving school.

Changing lanes, new skills for a new world.

That's best title so far, I think.

And the lew Walsh PDA is what?

It doesn't tell you what it is in the slightest.

No, that's why I like it.

I'm intrigued.

I want to go see what it is.

But here is the Adi NJC.

I'm intrigued.

Why she not?

Anyway, how can I help my learners to use mirrors effectively?

And seminar room 211 15, Alan gott of the FBTC accountancy services making tax digital your warning sign.

There's some good titles in that one.

Yes, absolutely.

I want to say Lynn, because I'm scared not to.

She's fierce.

No, I like Lynn.

I think she really gets it, doesn't she?

The title puts me off.

No, the mirrors thing.

It'll be interesting.

I'm sure there'll be good stuff that's not for me.

So I would go and try and figure out what changing lanes is about, just because of the title.

Having criticized it, I think you've described my fault, bro.

So.

Exactly.

Because, again, I'm with you on limb, but for me, I'm thinking, just say, is it safe?

Right.

Job done.

That's my presentation.

I'm keen to see what that is.

Tracy and Keffel.

Now, this is interesting, right?

Because everyone calls him Kevin Tracy.

And a while ago, I decided to start calling them Tracy and Kev.

And when I did, Tracy pulled me up straight away and says, oh, Stuart's locker is the only other person that does that.

And on here, the list is Tracy and Kev.

I think I'm the only person that finds that interesting.

They are talking about the four key factors to help reduce driving anxiety.

Well, in the lew Walsh PDI zone, it's Lee Jowett and McNall's of knowledgeably instructor training, a top down approach for PDIs and understanding the GDE matrix doesn't say if they use any simple steps or not.

And then in seminar room two at twelve, Vicki Ambrose and Kim Gibson.

This might be the best title, actually.

Shush.

Oh, no, it's not shush.

Secret to running a successful business.

So I'd go and see Vicky.

I did a Ydezenhe very early failed podcast with Vicky during lockdown.

No, it's very good.

It's probably still out there somewhere in the world and I'm interested in what they're doing, working with businesses and such.

With my business coaching hat on.

I think there's some great stuff that could be done out there.

So yeah, I'd go and see them.

If Mick wasn't there, I'd go and see Lee.

But I.

Lee's the.

Yeah, the one that I want to go and see out the two.

And just to clarify, when you oppose this, when you're talking about seeing Vicky, is that just Vicky or will you be going to see Kim as well?

Oh, no, I don't see both of them, but I don't think I'm acquainted in the same way.

I know who Kim is, but I don't think I'm acquainted.

But they're working together and they've got some really interesting stuff going on and it.

The stuff we ignore too often, they can give you that extra time and money that's got to be a good, that allows you to do all the other stuff you want to achieve.

Well, I've got to say that with some of the stuff I've said today, I don't think Liam, Mick will let me go and see them.

So I'm going to go and see as well.

I will just say I love Mick.

Really, he's great.

But yeah, it's all good.

I just like when you are.

I'm not going to say the same.

The live stage, aka the instructor podcast stage.

Again, please say this to Richard stores when you see him.

I'm so looking for.

I'm tempted just to go down to see if I've annoyed him enough.

Christopher Graham of what's PNG?

It's a driving training.

What's it stand for?

Because I've got Papua New guinea in my head.

I don't think it's Papua New guinea.

Pass and go.

Right?

Okay, that sounds more like the Papua New Guinea.

Christopher Graham of pass and go instructor training, why trainees fail the part three test and how to avoid this.

Been on this show before, ready to pass campaign update.

Out of the three, I'd go and see Bob, I think.

Is it time for another?

It's lunchtime, innit?

I probably go off and have lunch, but no, out of the three, probably Bob.

Amanda will be interesting, but I don't feel I need to up my knowledge on that because it's not my wheelhouse anymore, particularly unless there's something massive coming out, which you'd hope they would anyway, but you'd hope they'd have told us that already.

And I'm sure I'll get to hear about it.

So, yeah, I feel.

I feel like, yeah, I don't like upsetting people, but, yeah, you're on the wrong shawl.

Bob would be my pick, but Bob will fill out the room anyway.

And I get to talk.

Yeah, and I get.

And I get to talk to Bob for hours.

Recording podcast anyway, so it almost feels.

Almost feels a waste.

And the person I wouldn't get chance to speak to normally is mandolin.

So I think I'd be tempted by Amanda Lane.

Yeah.

The live stage, aka.

Aka aliens at the podcast stage at 130.

Now, this is the one that's really annoyed me.

I mentioned before that I'll probably decide if I go on Saturday, I'll make that decision.

This choice is making me not want to go because at 130, we've got Tom Stenson, gamification and making lessons fun.

Then in the lew Walsh PDI zone at 130, we've got Laura Morris and de Kali and McGregor Sims from go green, driving instructor training.

Eight fundamental skills assessed in the part three standards check.

And then in seminar room two, Chris, 130.

Chris Spencer fairytale explained the theory illusion.

I will not be in that room because I want to go and listen to the other two.

So I'm more annoyed because I can't listen to either of them because I've got to present myself.

I think we should.

All the three of us.

Is it four of us?

Four of us should all go and stand in the same room and do a big thing together because.

Yeah, why.

Why put those, those, the three of us up against each other in that way at that time as well?

I know that was.

Yeah, it's the one I wouldn't have done if I was arranging this.

But again, some of this is personal choice.

I do not know who I would go and see.

I.