In this episode of Batting 1,000, Dale Vermillion sits down with Kevin Peranio ("KP"), the Chief Lending Officer at Paramount Residential Mortgage Group (PRMG). KP shares his insights on thriving in the mortgage industry despite the challenges of a high-rate environment. He emphasizes the importance of a better, faster, and more competitive approach, underlining the significance of personal value propositions, technological integration, and responsive customer service.

KP also discusses the strategies that successful loan originators are employing, such as using multiple marketing technologies and focusing on debt consolidation opportunities. This conversation is packed with practical advice and industry wisdom, making it a must-listen for mortgage professionals aiming to excel in today’s market.

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In This Episode

Better, faster, competitive

KP introduces the principle of prioritizing better service, followed by faster and competitive approaches in the mortgage industry.

The relevance of UVPs (starts at 5 mins 45 secs)

Discussing how individual originators can stand out through their unique value propositions beyond their company's tech stack or pricing.

The art of integrating tech stacks (starts at 11 mins)

KP talks about the crucial role of integrating various technologies, including CRMs and digital marketing tools, to enhance efficiency and client relationships.

Traits that win in any market (starts at 18 mins)

The conversation delves into the necessity of being intentional, proactive, and responsive to clients’ needs, emphasizing that these traits can significantly impact success rates.

Cracking the CODE on high-rates (starts at 27 mins)

Dale and KP discuss opportunities for refinancing and consolidating debt in high-rate markets, highlighting how originators can still close significant volumes by addressing consumer debt.

Soundbites

"You have to say better first because, as an originator, that's the one thing that you control." — Kevin Peranio

"Responsiveness is critical. It shows you care and it impacts your success rate." — Kevin Peranio

"Tech allows you to compress your time and reduce friction, making your business scalable." — Kevin Peranio

"The key to success is high tech, high touch. Use technology for efficiency but build personal relationships for trust." — Kevin Peranio

"In today's market, you need to quadruple your efforts to achieve the same results as in lower rate environments." — Kevin Peranio

About Kevin Peranio

The Chief Lending Officer for PRMG (Paramount Residential Mortgage Group), Kevin Peranio oversees every facet of PRMG’s loan process, with a focus on customer satisfaction and quality control. Prior to this role, KP served as a Regional Manager at First Magnus Financial from 2001 to 2007, and then as the Chief Operating Officer at North Star Lending from 2007 to 2010. KP received a Bachelor’s of Science in Advertising Business from the University of Texas at Austin.

Connect with KP

LinkedIn → linkedin.com/in/kevin-peranio-6a56801/

About Dale Vermillion

Having trained over 1,000,000 lending professionals and worked with over 600 organizations, Dale has compiled the best practices of the nation’s top producers into a practical and proven system that has helped countless individuals build lasting relationships with their borrowers, strengthen and expand their referral partnerships, and achieve greater personal and professional success than they thought possible.

Dale is a 3x HousingWire Vanguard, a member of the 2022 Global Mortgage 100, and 2021 Mortgage Professional America Housing Industry Icon. He’s also the proud author Navigating the Mortgage Maze (Moody Publishing) and the Founder of Mortgage Professionals Providing Hope.

Connect with Dale

LinkedIn → linkedin.com/in/dalevermillion

Facebook → facebook.com/dalevermillionofffical

Twitter → twitter.com/dalevermillion

Website → dalevermillion.com

Email → listen@dalevermillion.com

About Batting 1,000

Batting 1,000 with Dale Vermillion is a production of Mortgage Champions, a VCI company. Produced and edited by Jake Vermillion. Music by Envato Elements. Copyright 2024 © Vermillion Consulting, Inc., All Rights Reserved.

I don't even know if the old adage even gets said anymore, but,

um, you know, it used to be, um, cheaper, uh, cheaper, better, faster, pick two.

And if there's anything that Amazon has really tried to build and show.

Is you can be all three to some level and I purposely say better first.

I say better, faster, cheaper.

You, you gotta say, you gotta say better first because, um,

as an originator, that's the one thing that you control, right?

I, I choose my environment, how I operate, how I communicate and my value

proposition as an individual originator.

Okay.

And that's better.

I'm better, right?

So me as me as a person, not my company, not my tech stack.

Not my channel, not how I do business, me and how all together I combine

all those things and how it works for me, I'm better at that respect.

That's why you say better first.

And that's what better is.

You're listening to batting 1000 with Dale Vermillion,

where heavy hitters from mortgage, real estate, and business share their

secrets for lasting success with your host award winning sales strategist

and industry icon, Dale Vermillion.

All right.

Welcome to batting a thousand where we talk to the heavy

hitters in the mortgage arena.

And I am super, super delighted to have a great guest.

I'm wearing my Dr.

Pepper t shirt for a reason, because not only is this guy a Texas original like Dr.

Pepper, but he's one of a kind, just like Dr.

Pepper.

And that's what I love about him.

Uh, today I've got Kevin Peranio.

And if you don't know that name, you're not in the mortgage

business because KP is everywhere.

Um, he is the chief lending officer for PRMG.

Um, uh, Paramount, uh, Residential Mortgage Group.

Uh, they have been around for a long time.

They are the company that was built by originators for originators.

Uh, they have been a wholesale lender, have helped so many people

in our industry over the years.

Prior to that, he spent time, um, as a regional vice president.

He spent time as a Chief Operating Officer.

He is a well known name and face in the mortgage industry.

You might have seen him on KP Talks Dollars and Cents on LinkedIn because he

does that like 2 o'clock in the morning all the time is when I see him doing it.

Uh, he is always bringing great information about the industry.

He is a fellow Vanguard through HousingWire.

This guy just has credentials out the yin yang and most importantly,

he is a dear friend and that's the thing I value the most.

KP and I've known each other for a long time.

KP, awesome to have you today.

Thank you for having me.

I, I, I love telling origin stories.

You know, how did we get started in this business and how do we do this?

How do we do that?

Um, I saw you speak, um, at an event years ago and I was just floored and I like,

I just went right up to you afterwards.

It's like, Oh my God, I want you to come speak to my team.

You're like, this is amazing, you know?

And, uh, and so I, you know, and then we struck up our friendship,

uh, you know, away from just, you know, the business aspect of it.

So thank you so much for having me, uh, on, uh, batting a thousand.

Oh, absolutely.

So look, we want to talk about let's talk about the market.

You know, we have seen rates consistently stay up.

Uh, you know, everybody in the industry keeps holding their breath, hoping

the rates are going to go down.

And the fact of the matter is they're not going to anytime soon.

Uh, we've seen rates bumping 6 and a half and 7 and a half

for the last couple of months.

Um, you know, production has been down.

But the interesting thing and the thing I want to hear from you originally or

initially KP is this, because I know you're seeing the same thing I'm seeing,

I'm seeing in the marketplace where there are loan originators that are

absolutely rushing it in this market.

Well, 15, 18, 20, 25 loans a month consistently.

And that's a very small percentage.

In fact, I was just in a conversation with the executives of ice yesterday, and

they gave the statistic that 40 percent of originators comprise 83 percent of

the production in the marketplace today.

The other 60 percent only create 17 percent of that.

What I'm seeing is a real kind of haves and have nots.

We're seeing people who are crushing it and people are doing one loan a

month, one loan every two months, one loan every three months limping along.

And here's my firm belief.

It always has been after 40 years.

If another originator in your market can do 20 loans, you can do 20 loans.

There's no reason why there's, there's no separation or differentiation

except for two things, your attitude.

That's your mentality or, or your, or your mindset.

And your methodologies, the approaches that you're taking.

So you see tons of originators, KP.

You work with hundreds of lenders, thousands and thousands of brokers

across the nation and loan officers.

Talk about what you're seeing that is making successful loan officers

and what you're seeing that's keeping them from being successful.

Give us, give us some of that KP wisdom.

Yeah, sure.

Well, I like that stat you just quoted from ICE.

I guess.

the 80 20 rules now, the 80 40 rule.

And, uh, you know, if people are looking for hope, that should

be hopeful right there that that top core group is expanding.

But, uh, yeah, you know, hope is not a strategy, right?

Like, of course, we all hope for the rates to come down.

We hope for that to happen sooner rather than later.

But, you know, that's That's a bonus if it happens when it

happens, and it will happen.

We all know that it's a cyclical business.

And so, so what are you doing?

Head down away from the noise, trying to get that 12 to 25 units

of funding, uh, production every single month, even in this market.

What are the tactics that you're doing?

Um, so I, I noticed a few things, um, just, just, you

know, off the top of my head.

Um, I'm seeing, um, I'm seeing people that have spent time, Putting together,

uh, multiple marketing, uh, technologies combined with their, um, sales skills.

And so, um, you know, we, we have a digital marketing

and lending team at PRMG.

We actually run stats.

On who is the most productive?

What are some of the secrets to their success?

And what's interesting is, um, if someone takes like, let's say, like,

they take a CRM, an automated trigger, um, you know, maybe a website and, you

know, maybe, you know, one other piece of technology, something for video,

like a, like a social media coach or social coach or something like that.

Right?

So if you take 4 things, okay, and you use them in your habits every day, right?

Um, that those people are more successful than someone with 3.

Okay.

Certainly, someone with only 1 and so our number actually goes up.

Uh, like, we have that number.

How many systems are originators using now?

This is in our retail channel that we do this, uh, distributed retail channel

that we do this analysis because I don't.

Have the information on our partners, but as that number goes up, um, the retention

rate for, for, um, uh, original staying with PRMG goes up and the success rate.

Goes up now, and so, you know, is there some causality there?

Like, okay, well, maybe when I said at the beginning, the use of good modern

technology for marketing combined with their sales skills, well, maybe their

sales skills are better, but maybe not, you know, maybe, you know, just because

someone's a better salesperson and grinds and does the follow up work and

is very efficient doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to have up to

8 or 9 pieces of combined technology.

And so for us, Um, as that number makes its way up to say eight

different pieces of tech all combined together eight, right?

I mean think about that.

That's crazy But eight different pieces of tech those people are out producing

those with lower numbers, you know under four by three fold So so that you know,

so if someone's doing You know, three or four loans a month, and then someone's

got eight pieces of tech together.

You know, they're doing potentially 9 to 12 units a month.

And then if you combine that with just talent in raw skills,

you know, are you following up?

Do you refuse to say no?

I will find a way to get this deal done with this bar of his place to trust in me.

No matter what, I will call 17 different lenders until I find a program.

To make this deal work.

Now that, that is like not giving up.

That is resolve.

That is grit.

And that's probably the third thing that kind of comes to the top of my mind is

you got to get, you know, you got to broaden out your product knowledge base.

So, so if I'm going to call 17 different lenders to make a deal work,

you know, I'm delving into non QM.

I may be looking at some second lien stuff, second liens that are done on

bank statements only or non QM stuff that's bank statement only, first lien.

I'm doing a cash out deal inside my database for someone that

probably didn't even know they needed to consolidate their debt.

You know, I'm having these conversations using my sales skills and putting

it all together with my modern tech.

And I don't just mean like send out a bunch of emails and drip on your

clients and hope they call you.

Like, if you're doing that, you're like everybody else,

you've got to do more than that.

Right.

And that's just one piece of tech.

So those are kind of three tactics that I'm seeing, uh, you know, that

are working right now, happy to dive deep into any one of those or, or, uh,

talk about any topics, uh, around that.

Yeah.

So, so let's unpack each one of those three.

I love when you use the word grit.

Um, I just did a session with, uh, with my clients on this and I defined grit as

being this, get really intentional today.

That's grit is we're going to get up.

We're going to get out of bed and we are going to be intentional about what we do.

We're not going to be reactive.

We're going to be proactive.

That's what grit is in this marketplace.

And man, you need a lot of it today because.

You know, the one thing we know about today's market is

you've got to do more calls.

You've got to do more prospecting.

You've got to get out more in your community.

You've got to do more of everything by three to four times than what

you had to do in 2020 and 2021.

To get the same kind of numbers you got in 2020 and 2021 because everybody's

business has shrunk by that amount.

Your realtors have a third.

The business they used to have, you know your builders, they're

starting to come back strong finally.

But they had a a tough time for a while, and certainly consumer activity is down

by 60 to 70% just because consumers react to what interest rates do.

So when rates go up, activity goes down, you've got a double and triple.

The amount of outbound activity you're doing to make up for that.

So let's first unpack, cause I know, you know, this really well.

Let's start with the technology piece, because I've always said, you know,

for years and years and years, the key to success is high tech, high touch.

So let's talk high tech first.

We'll come back and talk about high touch in a minute, but talk

about some of those technologies.

You mentioned, for example, a CRM.

I see loan officers every day that have a CRM and don't use it.

And I'm like, what are you doing?

Why would you not use that tool that can organize your leads, organize your

referrals, build out your systems.

Talk about what you think are the key technologies that really matter today.

Well, well, just, just so you know, you, you know,

I said the word grit on purpose because you've been our sales guru

and trainer for several years now.

And I remember they get really intentional.

And so, uh, I, I'm glad that since we're on the baseball team here,

I, I tossed you a soft pitch there.

Um, and you knocked it out of the park, by the way.

Um, uh, but you know, I, I, I joke like a year ago when things started to get

a little rough, um, towards the end of June of 22 and in July, I would say,

Um, hey, everyone has to work twice as much twice as hard for half the money.

And that means you need to make four times as much effort to make the same amount of

money or, and now that rates are kind of touching back up and that higher end of

the range again, it's back to that again.

And so, um, you know, being intentional about your actions, you know, quadrupling

your actions is super important, but what's great about technology and

what I always say about tech is, um, it allows you to, compress your time.

Cause time is money.

So compressing your time is, um, is absolutely critical reducing friction.

Okay.

So, you know, um, having a more frictionless experience for both

you and your team and your consumer, um, you, you know, your, your, your,

your, uh, loan partner, your barber.

Um, and then of course, scaling your business.

And so, you know, people don't think like, oh, this isn't a time to scale.

You absolutely can scale.

Right.

So, So, so as it relates to CRM, which is absolutely a must, you know, um,

I've been in all these different, you know, groups out there online, Facebook

groups and chat groups, and I watch, and the big joke is, you know, someone will

post a question, what's the best CRM.

And then, you know, all the veterans in the business kind of smirk, you

know, cause it's like, you know, the answer is the one you use, right?

So You know, if you're not using one, well, like you said, I mean,

you've got this drip system.

Um, I remember when we first started putting some of our, uh, don't worry,

it's not police, just a co star, uh, the helicopter in the background.

Um, so, uh, you know, I remember talking to some of our top producers

about seven, eight years ago when they were first getting on like a real

enterprise CRM that we're using a PRMG and they were like, it's not working.

I go, what do you mean it's not working?

And they're like, well, I sent out all these emails and you know, um,

I'm not getting enough conversion.

Um, I was like, it doesn't work like that.

It is not a magic silver bullet.

You know, you don't just send out emails to your database

and the loans come flooding in.

Um, that happens sometimes when there's a refinance market.

Um, that does happen when borrowers are all really heightened and interested

and in tune with what's going on.

But it is, um, it is a tip of the spear approach when you are

marketing to clients, either past, present, or even future prospects.

So you have to follow up with them.

You have to call them.

You know, you have to call every single client you've ever done business with.

At least once a year, if not once a quarter or more.

Hey, it's KP here, your trusted advisor, your past originator, you

know, I know you haven't forgotten me.

We had such a great experience together.

What's going on right now?

You know, ask some open ended questions.

What are some things I can work with?

Are you, you know, do you need some cash?

Can we tap into your equity?

Are you thinking about moving?

Um, what are some challenges you're facing with your debts or with your home?

Um, and so, you know, Technology like that helps you leverage those conversations,

open up those conversations.

So as it relates to CRM, it's the one you use.

Now, I like to classify CRMs in, in three kind of major categories.

Um, and, and so they're all really different for each individual.

Some, some CRMs can kind of handle a couple of different things, but,

um, especially upfront activity.

I would say like the texting.

Functionality of a serum is super important for, um, for forward

marketing up funnel marketing.

This is not a past client.

You're trying to work with someone, you're trying to get them engaged

and they're, they're actively thinking about it and searching.

Right?

So their serums are really good at, like, texting and in, like, a calm stack.

They're a good communication tool.

Then you've got some that are good at creating content.

Okay, so you got some that come with tons of flyers, tons of access, tons of content

that you can shape and make your own.

You don't have to have a creative staff on your team.

You're using that CRM to create content that resonates with

the way you want to effectively communicate as a sales professional.

And then what I would say is.

Um, there are, there's a third category where they integrate

with other different partners.

So my CRM will integrate with, uh, you know, multiple

different vendors that I'm using.

So like I said, if we have, um, four to eight, 10 different pieces of technology,

does my main CRM, that customer relationship management tool, does it

integrate with all those other tools?

So then, so, so for us as a company, you know, we're, we're

an enterprise, uh, company.

And, and so in my distributed retail, We had an enterprise

solution a few years ago.

One of the major ones out there and they were really good at creating content.

But then our chief marketing officer, Paul Lucido and our marketing team

kept getting bigger and bigger.

We started investing more in creating better content in house.

Then we even created a digital marketing team separate from

the traditional marketing team, creating better digital content.

So then our need for our CRM kind of evolved into, all right, well,

maybe we want our CRM to be better at integrating with other partners.

So let's say that I integrated, uh, with mortgage champions

and deal over a million.

So Dale and Jake and all the team there, you guys are putting together a piece

of content that like a video, a snippet that I really liked, or maybe a flyer.

If I'm integrated with your team, Then that CRM can pull that content

in, put it in a journey, spit it out.

And it's reducing time, uh, you know, uh, compressing time, reducing friction,

and then I can scale my business.

So, so we've evolved to an enterprise level CRM that integrates

with other partners and those partners help us create content.

So I don't have all that burden on just my digital marketing team

and my traditional marketing team.

So that's what we classify CRMs.

And again, that's what we do.

You know, it's, it's one of many technology pieces in the stack.

Yep.

I love that.

So you've got to have, from what KP talked about there, you got to have that front

end capability to be able to organize and stratify all of your leads, all of

your past customers, your database, your prospects, your realtors, all of those

things have got to be captured in there.

And then it's got to work with the other technologies to be able to text message,

email, dial out, do all those phone calls.

You can't live in today's market without that, because you need those efficiencies.

If you have to have a four X increase in your activities, because otherwise

you just run out of time in the day, if you're trying to do it manually.

So that technology becomes critical.

And then you've got to tie that to any online applications you have.

And you better have a back end technology that keeps that contact and that

follow up with those borrowers during the process, after the process, once

they've closed, it's making sure you're boxing in both ends of that transaction

because, you know, the mistake a lot of originators make is they're good on the

front end, terrible on the back end.

And then they lose the deal in this marketplace or

they're bad on the front end.

So they never get to the back end because they just don't get it in the first place.

It's really critical.

And the one thing I want to add to that, that I think is really important.

Um, and I know you and I both agree on this wholeheartedly, The thing

you cannot use your technology for is to create your relationships.

And I love your example of the loan officer who's emails 150 people and then

sits there and looks at his computer waiting for something to happen.

It ain't going to happen in an 8%, seven and a half percent market.

I was, I was, you know, I've worked with many clients, um, over the last

several months where I'm identifying that the loan officers are utilizing text

messages, not just to create interest.

But then they're trying to sell the borrower over text.

That is never going to work.

You are not going to get somebody to make a 475, 000 financial decision,

the biggest one in their lifetime, and never talk to you, never hear from

you, never get explanation from you.

You've got to use that text message to create the interest, to capture

that initial text based customer, and then layer that on by saying,

Let's have a conversation and talk about your needs, your goals.

Things I can do for you and move forward from there.

So tech really puts you in the game.

I love that point.

And let me, let me take the other end of that.

So let's say that you're a loan officer and you don't use tech.

Okay.

And you're like, you know what?

I take all my applications over the phone.

I get on the phone with a bar and I go through every single line

and I get to know all their needs.

Um, I get that approach and here's why I think it can be enhanced and you, and.

Be more trusting of the tech.

Okay.

So let's take, let's take point of sale.

For example, you know, we're on blend 60 percent of our

fundings and retail are on blend.

I mean, you know, everyone's got their opinions.

I think it's by far the best point of sale in the industry.

And no one's like even clips is my opinion.

And there are various reasons for that.

But, um, but what I would say is let's say that I, you know, give me an example.

So I send out, uh, I, I, I get an appointment or I call the bar and I'm

going through the loan application.

You know, um, how many dependents do you have, Mr.

Perennial?

Um, I have four.

Um, how old are they?

Um, they're four, six, eight, and ten.

Okay, so I'm writing it down.

Now, because I'm on the phone and I'm asking every single question,

you know, In the interest of time, you might not take that further

that I just talked about, because at the end of the app, you have to go.

Are you a co endorser on?

I know.

Oh, what does that mean?

Explain that?

Have you ever been in foreclosure?

Are you will be able to go through all the declarations on the back?

Right?

So so this is where trusting tech and a point of sale is great.

Let let a consumer let me, you could text him.

You could email me.

Call me.

Let me send you the link.

Fill out this application.

Fill out as much as you can.

Let's set an appointment to go over it together.

I'm going to review it before I get on the phone with you in the interest of Your

time and my time, we're going to, because, because, you know, saving time for your

consumer shows, you care about them too.

So they, you know, they don't necessarily want to spend an hour

with you going through all those stupid, you know, things when they

can probably, you know, knock it out.

They may be very fast and intelligent.

They may be smart, especially if it's a millennial, they're

probably a lot smarter than me.

They could probably fill out as much of that link than I can

verbally say, go over on the phone.

I mean, You're disrespecting their time sitting on the lake.

Get the app back, set up an appointment.

Then now here's how it goes.

All right.

So now I'm talking to you.

Hey, Mr.

Perennial, I see you have four kids.

Holy smokes.

That's amazing.

Are you trying to buy a house?

you know, better for their school.

Are you looking because I have some realtors that know the school districts

can give you more information.

Is that why you're making this move now?

In that same amount of time, that was so much more impactful

in relationship building than how many children do you have?

What are their ages?

Then let me type them down.

Because you already saw it before you got on the phone, you reviewed it

and you had a more impactful amount of time by talking about that stuff.

And I don't even need to look at the declaration.

So they already filled all those little check boxes out and I can tell, you

know, whether they're wrong or not.

And if I need to go over it, so, so just taking a loan application with

a technology piece of point of sale.

It's such a big difference for both your time and the consumer's time.

Don't disrespect the consumer's time either.

They don't want to sit on the phone and have you walk them through everything.

And that's just one of many aspects of the business.

You know, it gets a lot more heated as the deadline comes for the contract later.

So if you had a better experience upfront and you were available upfront

and you communicated back and forth up front in an efficient manner, they're

going to have a lot less heat on them.

And you, when things get closer to the deadline at the end,

That's rich.

That's, that's so powerful.

And you know, that dovetails so much what I've taught forever is that what you have

to do, you know, I get the question a lot.

So what's the right way to do an application?

And the answer is you combine both.

You combine the technology advantage of an online application with the

human advantage of a telephone conversation is what you have to do.

You have to create that high tech, high touch approach.

And the mistake that I see time and time and time and time again in today's

marketplaces, Owners should just shoot off a link, and the next call they make

is not to go back and talk about the kids.

It's not to go back and review what you're trying to do with the home.

It's not to go back and sell their realtor to that customer.

So you enhance your relationship with your realtor.

It's not to go back and dig in on their debt to understand how we can build the

best restructure for them on a refinance.

You know what their next call is.

Okay, I've got you approved.

Let me make you my offer.

Wait a minute.

Hold on a second.

You went from zero to 120 with nothing in between.

That's literally what you did.

You, you, you gave them a, an online app to fill out.

They did it themselves.

Now you get on and you're right to, okay, here's your payment.

Here's your rate.

Here's your call closing costs.

Here's your, here's your cost to close.

It's like, what are you doing?

Nobody's going to buy in that scenario.

You're going to create shoppers all day long.

You just

come up, you just commoditize yourself.

You do.

It's exactly right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I hear it.

I hear it all the time.

We'll just go.

Those bars are shoppers.

I go, no, you created a shopper is what you did.

They were until you made them one.

Yeah.

And look, I mean, rate is always part of every conversation, right?

I mean, of course, you know, if, if, if, if it's just about shopping, well, let's

just send everybody to the credit union.

It's got the best rates in the country right now.

Everyone just quit your job and send it to that one person works at a credit

union for peanuts because they have the best rep don't hit me with that rate

stuff because you're not number one.

You're not number one.

You never will be.

You're not.

There's one loan officer in the country.

Who's number one at rate now, I don't know, but they probably work

at a credit unit and they probably don't work for a lot of money.

And so, so just, just, you know, like you said, you, you have to create value.

That doesn't mean you have a bad price and you're trying to wash over the fact that

your price may be higher than the best.

That's not the case and prices fluctuate all the time.

The broker channel had horrendous pricing during the pandemic.

The worst, because there was, it's such a smaller percentage of the market share.

Okay, so there's too much business flooding in for that model, for

the amount of capacity in the few lenders that were out there.

And I got news for you, there's a lot less wholesale lenders today

than there was three years ago.

So if we see a smidge of a rebuy boom, it's going to be the same thing.

Our model is about capacity.

Some channels have worse and better pricing at different times in the cycle.

There's not one that's always the best at all the time.

And anyone tells you different, they are lying to you.

They are self absorbed trying to get you to go their way.

And trust me, anyone that's a veteran in this business, they

know there's ups and downs.

So value is the consistent thing, right?

Your combination.

Of giving a consumer price, giving them expertise, taking the time to

help solve problems, your product knowledge, you know, how you

communicate, do you resonate them?

Does your tech marry in together with all that?

That's what makes someone special as an originator.

That is the thing that makes them the most special that I would

combine and call it altogether value.

Yeah, that's well, well, well said KP.

That's exactly the truth as to what the problem is.

It's like I've said all the time, there's always a cheaper and there's always a

faster, but that don't make them a better.

And, and you got to understand that I see loan officers too many times bank on

two things, their price and their speed.

Hey, I've got great rates and I can close in two weeks.

Well, you know what?

I would wait four weeks if it was a better loan, to be honest with you.

And they do?

Yeah, that's right.

And they absolutely do.

So, we've got to understand that that value proposition of how you

create that white glove customer experience, and you only do that

when you establish a relationship.

So, when we talk about high tech, high touch, it's having that technology

that allows you to create efficiencies, To, to be able to easily get access to

information from the, from the customer, like their income documentation and all

the things you do need to do to support commitment, but it's being able to take

that technology and still build that personal human relationship, not make

it all about a, I love when you said a moment ago, you know, the loan officer

taking the application, Sarah was, so you got, how many dependents do you have?

I mean, I've said this my whole career.

Yeah.

You don't walk into a room at your 20 year high school reunion, see

your best friend from high school, four kids and go, man, those are the

cutest dependents I've ever seen.

They would think there was something wrong with you.

That's like saying nice tax deductions.

You're going to say what beautiful children.

And nobody talks like that today because we're so quick taking a nap.

So we've got to build that, that human side.

I love, I love that.

Well, you, it's funny cause you know, um, I don't even know if the old adage

even gets said anymore, but, um, you know, it used to be, um, cheaper,

uh, cheaper, better, faster pick two.

Right.

So, so that, that was the old adage.

And if there's anything that Amazon has really tried to build

and show is you can be all three.

To some level, but I've been banging the drum.

I put out a lot of content in the industry and I purposely say better.

1st, I say better, faster, cheaper.

Right?

Right.

And I said that 1st, I've been banging that drum.

I say it that way on purpose and I'm very flattered.

I see some marketing departments piggybacking off that.

I love seeing it out there.

They're not giving me any credit for it, but you got to say, you

got to say better 1st, because.

As an originator, that's the one thing that you control, right?

I choose my environment, how I operate, how I communicate, and my value

proposition as an individual originator.

Okay.

And that's better.

I'm better.

Right?

So me as me as a person, not my company, not my tech stack, not my

channel, not how I do business, me and how all together I combine all

those things and how it works for me.

I'm better in that respect.

That's why you say better first.

And that's what better is now.

I think faster.

Second.

Because speed has to do with anything that any of us can control.

There's some things you don't control.

Okay.

There's like

realtors and how fast

we lost your audio for a minute.

There we go.

You're back.

Yeah, sorry.

So, so the second thing I like to say is, is, uh, faster, right?

Cause cause faster means that you're trying to respect the time of your

consumer, your bar, your partner.

And of course you're faster.

Now there are some things that you don't control when it comes to speed,

how fast realtors are taking how fast bars, you know, get documents back.

That did not send you the last page, the bank statement.

It says this page left intentionally blank, but you need all page of

the bank statements, you know, that little back and forth, right?

But if you grasp tech.

And you use day 1 certainty, and you got it from the beginning.

When they enter their bank information and username and

password, it was all automated.

And then dumped in the loan originator system and under it faster.

Cheaper is always third because cheap sounds cheap, right?

It's cheap, you know, and again, you know, a price play inherently means someone's

cutting a corner somewhere on something.

Okay.

And, um, it may be cutting a corner on profitability.

To raise rates later at a different time.

All right.

And so cheaper can't be trusted.

Okay.

Consistency and love that consistency in price can be trusted.

Cause I'll say it again.

The number one cheapest, absolute only lender and or origin in America.

It's only one place and we don't all send their loans to them.

So, um, if someone is consistently cheaper and they don't jack the rates,

they didn't jack up the rates when things got busy, they're consistently

putting out a consistent price.

That builds trust, especially with a lender and the originator.

And so I always go better, faster, cheaper in that order.

And look, I, you know, when you use the word cheaper,

you're setting the wrong connotation.

I prefer to replace that with the word competitive.

Yes, you're competitive.

Because you mentioned it.

Cheaper is something that if you create that mindset with the borrower, they're

never going to stop chasing that.

They're going to keep looking for the cheaper and cheaper

and cheaper and cheaper.

So I love the way that you built that out.

That's absolutely true.

Let's talk for a minute about speed.

Because.

Here's been my inherent belief for the 40 years I've been in the business

is that speed is way more important to the loan originator than to the

borrower in 99 percent of the cases.

There are very few times when a borrower actually needs you to

close in lightning fast speed.

What matters to the borrower when it comes to speed and what matters

to the partner when it comes to speed Is your responsiveness.

Yes.

Not your days from application to fund all the realtor cares about.

Just get it done before the contract date.

That's it.

That's all they wanna know.

That's it.

You know, don't be, don't don't be calling me at three o'clock in the afternoon

with a three 30 closing and saying.

I just got my CTC.

That's going to drive them crazy.

You'll never get business from them again.

What they want is, they don't care if you're two weeks or three weeks.

If it's a 30 day contract, have it done in 29 days for me and I'm fine.

I'm okay with that.

What the borrower and the realtor want is, return my phone calls quickly.

When I give you a referral, call my customer right away and show

them the same kind of level of service that I'm showing them.

So that literally when they hang up the phone, they're calling me

back as a realtor and saying, wow, that loan officer you referred me

to, I got off the phone with you.

And my phone was ringing from them immediately saying, I'm

a partner with this realtor.

I'm here to get your loan done because when you are responsive like that,

they already know you're going to be good at what you do the entire process.

You prove it right from the get go.

It's, it's interesting, KP.

You're going to love this.

We've been doing secret chopper calls with all of our clients.

Uh, my daughter, Jessica, been in the business five years.

I got her in the mortgage business five years ago.

She's working for me now.

So I said, here's what I want you to do.

You you're, you were an actress, you know, the business inside and out.

I want you to start calling our clients loan officers

and let's get some good data.

Well, we've now made about a hundred phone calls.

You know, we found.

You know, we found the data is on how long the average call takes from the

time she leaves a message on their voicemail saying, Hey, I'm a new buyer.

I'm thinking about buying a home.

I'd like to talk to you about, you know, just how that works

and what your rates are.

It's over three and a half hours before she gets a phone call and only

about 55 percent even return the phone call within the first three days.

It's unbelievable.

So, you know, you see that it's like your problem isn't your technology.

Your problem isn't your products.

Your problem isn't your pricing.

Your problem is you're not responsive.

So talk a little bit about what you see in that, in the business.

How vitally important responsive is.

Yeah.

You know, so, so as chief lending officer, I oversee three channels.

So we have wholesale correspondent, um, which includes non delegated and,

uh, uh, delegated and then retail.

So I, you know, we say built by originators.

Built for originals by originals for a reason because we don't we don't

care what channel they want to be on.

They all they're all different in their own way, right?

So, um, so we're trying to serve them and in a purchase heavy

market, you know between that tri channel mix We did about a billion

dollars in may and june each month.

Wow about nine.

Well, 92 percent purchase Okay, so the the purchase percentage typically

is the highest in retail and then gets a lot a little bit lower in

wholesale And then even lower in our corresponding channel Um, but all of

them are pretty elevated right now because, you know, rates are high.

So most of it's a purchase.

So to your point, you got a sales contract.

You're not going to make the seller like move out quicker, you know,

uh, unless they unless they ask you, uh, your bar probably doesn't

want to get rid of their money.

Uh, more quickly.

You know, maybe they, they gotta, you know, they, they need to move, you

know, they gotta organize moving, you know, they're probably not gonna do it.

Yep.

You know, in seven days, which is the, the least amount of time that

a loan application is allowed to get done, you know, per regulation.

So, um, and that's with an appraisal waiver.

So, so, you know, for us, I agree, it's, it's responsiveness and, and here's,

here's, I mean, first of all, um, for the ones that did call back three and a half

hours, um, it's better not calling back.

Okay?

But, but here's, here's what's crazy.

The, the first time home buyer.

Is a millennial and, um, the average age before this rate

spike in last year was 33.

Now it's 36.

So it tells you how less affordable loans have gotten and you had to, you

know, now our average age of first time home buyers a little higher because

that affordability element still still in that millennial range and the way

that they look at responsiveness.

Um, we saw lead conversion.

Um, these statistics are within five minutes, five minutes.

Okay.

So five minutes when, when they borrow, when your daughter

called, okay, what she expects.

Okay.

And what the data shows us for someone that's actually doing alone.

Not a fake secret shopper.

Okay.

Is 5 minutes you call back in a minute.

You're golden.

If you don't call back within 5 minutes, you, your, your retention and

conversion rate of that bar is is 10%.

So, wow.

So it's 10%.

So, wow.

So you have to call back in 5 minutes.

So that's why that's why using tech is good, right?

Something that.

Responds to Jessica says, Hey, you know, you know, I saw what you called.

Here's a text schedule my calendar exactly when the time works for you

and I and someone get back to you.

Some people even have answering services that will pick up the phone within

that first call or within five minutes.

Yep.

And call on behalf of the loan officer.

You don't have to be like, just like you don't have to take the entire loan

application and be the only person talking to bar the whole way through.

And you could use a point of sale.

You also don't have to be the only person that talks to the bar, the entire

process, you can have someone else.

It's okay to give up control because if you don't, You will not scale your

business and you will lose a lot of it.

And so, you know, so yeah, we agree.

Responsiveness is, um, it shows you care.

It's absolutely critical.

And, uh, and you've got the data to back it up.

So let me ask you one more question.

Then I want to ask you the final question of, of, of the interview.

Um, I'm seeing on my end that the clients that I'm having,

they're the most successful.

Right now and, and I've got clients that are literally beating their plans

from last year and the year before.

So they're beating 2021 and 2023, if you can believe that.

I

believe it.

The way that they're, yeah, the way that they're doing it

is they are not buying into the fact that this is a purchase only market.

They are doing a ton of refinances.

Yes.

They're doing a ton of cash out.

Eliminations because the consumer debt is the highest in US history.

We're well over a trillion dollars in credit card debt for the first time ever.

Home equity loans and lines are through the roof.

Auto loans are over $40,000 for a new car loan average this year.

In 2023.

Rates are in the 20 on credit cards in the teens, on car loans,

and in the teens on home equity.

And everybody's looking at this six and a half, seven, seven and a half

percent and thinking how awful that is.

Well, compared to 23 percent and 14 percent and all these other,

you combined that, you've got some incredible opportunities.

Are you seeing the same thing out there in, in what you're seeing from your level?

Yes, we're seeing, um, you know, um, this whole talk about

recession and, you know, remember we're supposed to be in one right now.

Maybe, maybe we were last year, maybe it's coming.

I mean, that's going to come at some point.

Right.

But.

Even though the Fed just said it ain't happening, but as, um, economies

slow down, as, um, higher interest rates shrink our economies grow,

the more the economy goes in that direction, the more people need cash.

The more that's right.

Time has built up since the good times when they were spending, you know, um,

you know, habitually and maybe they don't want to break that habit, right?

That's why you have nested equity.

So people have record equity.

I mean, record equity and, and, you know, um, not all death is a bad

thing, especially if you already have debt, you must just consolidate

your debt into one place or a better combined monthly payment.

Okay.

Use that home.

That's right.

So the debt consolidation tool, you know, our good friend Barry, you

know, we love their tools over there.

MBS Highway.

We love

Barry.

They're great.

Um, so, you know, having those kinds of tools out there and putting it,

you know, integrated in your CRM and pushing out that kind of content, um,

you know, having those kinds of thing.

Mortgage Coach.

You know, obviously, uh, Dave Savage, they do a good job there to, you

know, having these kinds of things to talk about these conversations.

That's great.

You got tech, you got these presentations, you get them out.

Then you have to have a conversation.

I'm your debt advisor.

I'm your trusted advisor.

Um, I think that's what Barry and his team called it.

Like I'm a debt advisor, right?

So let me help you consolidate your debt.

Let me help you, you know, 250 bucks, 350 bucks extra a month.

That's meaningful.

Uh, especially as you get closer to a slowing, uh, economy recession

and no recession, people are like, want that little comfort level.

So yeah, we're seeing, um, a lot of HELOC, second liens, um, debt

consolidation loans, even taking the first lane at a higher, uh, interest

rate, um, but consolidating debt.

I mean, somebody's first time home buyers we did.

Um, a year and a half ago now.

Okay.

So in the sixes.

They'll take, you know, uh, they'll take a 7 percent rate, you know, that,

you know, to consolidate their debt.

You know, you can't just think I can't ever call anyone that's been in the record

history, you know, 5 percent or 4 percent under interest rates or 3 percent unders.

Although you got to call them too.

Okay.

Yeah.

They may not be interested as much.

But you never know their debt situation.

That's a totally different conversation.

Maybe they want to keep their first lien the same and you

do a second lien on top of it.

Maybe you get someone to do the whole first lien.

So I agree.

That's part of like what I say at the beginning, pivoting into new products,

not just being a realtor marketer looking for purchase business only.

There are other things to go out and do.

Do you know what I'm saying?

Exactly right.

Yep.

So we talked about mentality at the beginning and, and you were, uh, you were

on your show last night and I loved it.

You talked about how, you know, you're one of the most knowledgeable guys in the

market as far as I'm concerned, and yet you said, you don't watch the news yet.

You know, all the things that, you know, and I don't watch the news either.

It's a, you know, when I tell people like, well, How do you stay informed?

I'm like, well, you don't need to watch the news to stay informed.

In fact, that's the wrong way to do it.

You're just going to get depressed.

Talk a little bit about the importance of positive mindset.

And you're one of the most positive guys I've ever known in my life.

I love being around you.

You are, you're just a light man.

You're always smiling.

You're always happy.

Tell everybody how you do it.

How do you keep that positive attitude in this marketplace?

Well, I start with double espresso at nine 30 and, uh,

I would, I would say that, um, you know, um, our business is cyclical,

uh, financial services, cyclical business cycles are cyclical.

And so I know there's a better time ahead because we just had a really good one.

Right.

And so, uh, and like you said, some people are having a great

time, even now to this day.

And so, um, yeah, you know, I, I, I would say as it relates to business,

I, I like watching clips from CNBC.

Um, I know they slant slightly, uh, left.

Okay.

I get that.

Right.

And if something's so newsworthy, In the world, it's gonna be

a news alert on CNBC, right?

It's gonna come down there.

Like if there was, you know, uh, uh, a fire in Maui that, you know, took

down a bunch of, you know, collateral and neighborhoods, you know, praying

for the people in Lahaina, you know, it's like, you know, that would

make it to CNBC, which isn't a hard news, you know, company, there's an

election year coming up next year.

Um, everyone's going to be filling 24, 7 hours plus all the commercials.

I don't want to watch any of that.

I don't want.

my emotions played with by someone on TV about something that, to be honest,

most people aren't gonna change your mind anyway, how they think, you know, they may

get to know the candidate, you know, maybe here's some things they haven't heard.

But most people kind of have their opinions.

They formulated, you know, in their formative years.

So, um, I think having a good high EQ, that emotional quotient, that

emotional intelligence, is just as important as having a high IQ because

then I can better use my IQ by, you know, controlling my emotions.

So, um, I don't need to watch, you know, the news, especially

when it comes to politics.

I'm interested in finding out math, science, data, and facts

and how that impacts our business, how that's impacting the market.

What are some trends that I'm seeing?

What's some data that I'm seeing?

You know, let's say a year ago.

Okay, you saw rates go up.

You're just just just a consumer.

You're not, you know, you're not in it immersed in every day like we are.

And you saw rates go up from the lowest in history in February of 22.

To a super high amount by June.

You're like, whoa, that was fast.

It was a crash coming.

There's a crash coming.

Okay.

There was a crash before.

Okay.

There's a crash coming.

There's a crash.

No way.

It's gotta be a crash.

When this happens, I'm going to sit back.

I'm going to wait for rates to go down.

I'm gonna wait for home price to go down.

You know what?

You were wrong.

You were wrong.

And last November and November 22, we saw that peak in rates and we saw home

prices stopped declining, at least slightly declined from June to November.

I was banging that drum.

Now is your last, best, good time to get in the house.

Because in the spring, it's seasonal.

People are going to come out no matter what the rates are.

They need to move for the summer, for the new school year.

That's when it happens.

That's why people are getting in their house now, here in the middle

of August, leading into the new school year, leading into Labor Day weekend,

and then it starts to slow down.

It doesn't matter all that stuff you see on TV, or raids, or the crash bros that

are out there saying it's a doomsday.

They were all wrong, and if you waited, you were wrong.

You missed an opportunity to create.

And to get a good price now, home prices have gone up again in the last year.

They may slide a little bit again at the end of this year with rates being

elevated, but again, I still think towards the end of the year, going into next

year, we're that much closer to spring purchase season again, where things get

busy and we're also that much closer to whenever the fed may cut rates.

Or when rates may stabilize.

So that means that everyone comes out when rates are lower, there's more

demand, more people can afford it.

And so, you know, if you listen to the news and they're wrong and you don't

listen to your trusted advisor, yeah, okay, maybe they're an originator.

They're just trying to sell me.

They're trying to do a loan.

Okay.

But they're going to make you think of something.

Then you can go look for yourself.

And look at other pieces of information other than maybe listening, you

know, uh, to Diana on CNBC, you know, whose lean is negative all the time.

Right?

So maybe you go out and you learn some of the math.

You're like, wow, I was wrong.

Home prices went up this year with high rates.

You know why?

Because rates aren't volatile.

Okay, these are the going rates.

So I actually think the opposite will happen.

If we see even a slight dip in rates coming down now that bars have

seen for a year and a half going on two years, this rain explosion.

Yeah.

This little range.

Okay.

It's bouncing into the high fives up to the mid sevens.

If I see it break down below six again, boom.

All right.

More people, I think, are going to jump on it than they did the

last time it went to the low 60s.

That's right.

Because I've seen this before with my own eyes.

And so these are things that you try and, you know, communicate to borrowers.

You try and be non emotional about it.

You try and hit them with, you know, facts and trends and math and science

and data to be able to help them with this highly emotional decision

for them as a first time homebuyer.

That's

great.

That's awesome.

Well, great stuff as always KP.

I want to close with the last question I ask all of my guests.

Um, and it's, it's this, we all have mentors in our life.

I'm a firm believer.

You have to have mentors to succeed.

I'd love to hear from you who has been the mentors in your life and

how powerful do you think that is?

And the listeners or watchers of this podcast, how important is it for

them to have a mentor in their life?

to succeed.

Well, my mentor, uh, passed away 2.

5 years ago.

So that was my father.

And, uh, yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, Parkinson's, you know, went

through Parkinson's for 22 years, you know, and and so, but, but you

want to talk about a hardship, right?

Like I watched him battle.

Degenerative neurological disease that stripped away his voice, his ability

to communicate his loud, booming voice that he would, you know, yell from the

soccer sidelines as me and my sister were kids, you know, or when he was, you

know, behind the helm of a sailboat in a regatta, you know, tap, tap, you know,

watching him take charge and lead and using his brilliant mind and teaching

me calculus as I was going through high school, you know, like I, I missed that.

Right.

And I think a lot of people.

Um, I would say, um, would say their mother or their father as

their mentor, which is why it's so important that we help families.

Stay together and build that unit, you know, cause we're

helping build that mentor.

Um, beyond that, you know, I have, um, some great people that I work

with, uh, the founders of PRMG, uh, Paul Rozo, Robert holiday.

I really look up to them.

Um, even though they're my partners, I still, you know, look

up to those guys in business.

Um, they, they, I learned from them every day.

Gary Malice is my partner as well.

Um, great guys, great guys, you know, and, um, and Herb Lewis.

You know, he works together with us.

Um, he works, I love her.

I mean, you know, he, he, he likes to say I'm two days older than dirt.

And, uh, he, he, he has been around.

Um, he had been around, uh, when Angelo Mozilla had one wholesale office.

And Herb was in charge and his first week on the job,

Angelo told her, I need a list.

I need you to, I need you to give me, I need you to give me 20 names.

You know, he's like, yeah, it's going to do a reduction of force.

Like his first week on the job, you know, learning that countrywide

way of looking at business.

And then I would say my first real mentor in the business, uh, is Leslie Inman.

And, um, she helped mentor me, uh, when I first started for First Magnus back in

Austin, Texas, uh, in 2001 as a wholesale account executive, and she still works.

With us here at PRMG to this day.

Um, I love, you know, bouncing things off of her, um, as a female, very empowered,

intelligent, highly successful female.

I get a great, um, you know, way, uh, uh, you know, uh, to, to think

about things in business and of course, my mother, I love my mother.

She's the strongest can be.

Uh, you know, there's a power outage in Texas.

When the Ercot thing went down, all the power lines went down and I'm talking

to my mom on the cell phone and um, you know, she's like three days of

no power in her house in the winter.

And I'm like, are you okay, mom?

She's like, yeah, you know, I'm just bundled up.

I can see my breath here in the living room.

I'm like, mom, you're 70, 77 years old.

You know, like, do you want me to pay for a hotel?

Like, I'll get you in a place.

No, I'm fine.

I got a fire.

You know, it's like, kind of joining some, you know, so just just someone who's just,

you know, self reliant, doesn't complain.

Nobody cares.

Nobody listens anyway.

You know, so it just, you know, those I would say are my

mentors in life and in business.

Awesome.

Yeah.

It's awesome.

Awesome.

Well, KP, I can't thank you enough for taking the time.

I know how busy you are on your vacation with your family.

You're going to tell all of us yours?

Well, no, I, I, you're the guest, but I've, I've had many.

Well, certainly it was my mom and dad.

And, uh, actually I, I had a couple coming through the business.

One of the guys that also passed recently, a couple of years ago, a guy by the

name of Bob Janning was the Hardest guy I ever worked for in my life.

And I learned more from him than I ever learned from anybody.

I mean, he, I used to have a sign in my office that said the beatings

will continue until morale improves.

They're because of Bob, but man, did I learn a lot from that guy?

And I learned one important thing that your mentors sometimes are

the toughest people in your life.

And what you got to do is quit complaining about how tough they are.

And just listen to what they got to say to you, because.

If you can read between all of the, all of the expletives and all of

the, the, the harshness, sometimes there's some absolute gold in there

that you can get out of that and.

He was one of my, my biggest mentors by far.

So I love that.

I love the tough leadership.

I have, uh, I have this whoop band and I don't know if you're, if you're

people can see there, but it basically said, yeah, it says KP never quit.

And this is what I had written on there before I bought it.

It says, nobody cares.

Work harder.

That's it.

Love it.

awesome.

No one wants to hear it.

Short, sweet, and to the point.

No wants to hear your complaints.

You know her Herb Lewis is what my mentors, he says all the time.

He's like, he's like, how you doing?

He's like, uh, no complaints.

Nobody cares.

Nobody listens.

. Dale Vermillion: I love.

Well, KP, it is great to see you, great to be with you.

Go enjoy time with your family.

I love you.

Thank you greatly my friend.

Appreciate you.

Thanks for being part of this.

God bless you, my friend.

God bless you.

Love you too, ma'am.

Well,

that'll do it for this month's, uh, betting a thousand.

So glad to have KP with us and, uh, hope you guys learn a lot.

I know that you did, cause that was just gold from start to finish.

Y'all have a great month.

This month.

We'll see you on the next one.

God bless.

And we'll see you soon.

Thanks everybody.

Batting a thousand is a production of mortgage champions.

A company that's been transforming the people who transform companies since 1995.

Have a suggested topic or guest contact my team on Twitter.

That's at Dale Vermillion or tweet us using the hashtag batting 1000.

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