Today we wrap up our Nine Lies About Work series with a brief recap of the lies and our overall reactions to the book. Overall, we think Nine Lies About Work is worth the time and energy to read, especially if you are in a leadership position or aspire to be at some point in your career.

Thanks for joining us today and don't forget to hit the subscribe button or reach out at hello@wannagrabcoffee.com.

Robert Greiner 0:05

So you took another vacation.

Charles Knight 0:07

Yeah, I was on vacation. I mean, I had three weeks over the past six. I take a week vacation, back to work, and then another vacation and then back to work. And then last week was my final planned one for the summer. That was just me and Jamie in Florida. On the beach. It was phenomenal.

Robert Greiner 0:23

That's cool. That's awesome. Good.

Charles Knight 0:24

Where'd y'all go? Marco Island, which is kind of this two thirds down the Gulf Coast of Florida. It was nice. condo right on the beach. You can see the sunset from the balcony. You can get to the beach in minutes of walking. And that's great. We did some kayaking, and we took some nice, kind of formal pictures. She'll she likes to do that on our trips.

Robert Greiner 0:48

Charles. So you're like a one work week on one work week off kind of guy. Right?

Charles Knight 0:52

Yeah, totally. Yeah. Get down with that. That's Yeah, that sounds great. And it hasn't been all that disruptive either for my accounts and teams and stuff like that. Looks like I still took calls. Like when things were urgent to address some issues. That was a rare thing, but for the most part might get, you know, things just kept going.

Robert Greiner 1:11

It seems less invasive, actually. Then a three week straight. Yeah. vacation, which would be hard for you to context switch because you actually did three different things on those three weeks.

Charles Knight 1:21

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Igor, how are you feeling? Being on sabbatical?

Igor Geyfman 1:26

It's really just starting. I had some work or that bled over into this week. I haven't been able to fully step away. I'd probably say like, next week's probably the like the official sabbatical.

Robert Greiner 1:39

Yeah, you're like me, it takes them takes a few days to get settled in.

Igor Geyfman 1:42

That's right. That's right.

Charles Knight 1:44

I forgive you, Igor. You didn't set up time with me to talk about Chad. And

Igor Geyfman 1:49

I know, I need to

Charles Knight 1:50

Nah. I'll figure it out. I'll read his last review. I think that's all I need. If I need something else, then I'll text you and you can choose to respond or not.

Robert Greiner 1:59

What a friend.

Igor Geyfman 2:00

I know. Totally.

Charles Knight 2:02

I do it for you, too. Robert.

Robert Greiner 2:03

Thanks, man.

Igor Geyfman 2:06

Roberts going on sabbatical next year.

Robert Greiner 2:08

June, July, August. Yeah. Me too. Is that right at the same time?

Charles Knight 2:14

I'm pretty sure. Yeah. That's cool. I fear for our office. Robert, with you and me out.

Robert Greiner 2:21

What's gonna happen?

Charles Knight 2:22

Great things hopefully.

Robert Greiner 2:25

We'll have to pre record a bunch of episodes. That's fine.

Charles Knight 2:27

Yeah. Hey, one, one of the things that's connected to this that if summertime is going to be a time when it's going to be harder. We could just do seasons, a podcast seasons was like, Hey, we publish episodes one a week from, you know, September to through May. And then we've got June, July, August off.

Robert Greiner 2:49

Yeah.

Igor Geyfman 2:49

Kind of like school.

Charles Knight 2:50

Like school. The one of the podcasts I listened to is it's like that, and may not be a bad idea. Yeah.

Robert Greiner 2:57

Especially in the summer, because we tend to travel more and do more things with kids. Yeah. Next year. We've already said we're going to be making up for last year. And so I'll be gone a lot more I think. Yeah, some think about before we

Charles Knight 3:10

all go on sabbatical. And for the next planning session, which I think is coming up coming up. Yeah.

Robert Greiner 3:17

Well, we're, this is Episode 49. Today, we're coming up on a year. So that'll be a good time to shake things up if we need to.

Charles Knight 3:25

Yeah. Do we know what we're talking about today?

Robert Greiner 3:28

Yeah, we're wrapping up nine lies about work today. So final nail in the coffin.

Charles Knight 3:33

This is the last lie or the

Robert Greiner 3:35

I forgot recap. So today's recap. Got it. Got it. There's a hidden 10 fly, which is what?

Igor Geyfman 3:42

Every everything is a lie. Not just work.

Robert Greiner 3:46

a lie. Yeah. I

Charles Knight 3:47

Louis just got back. He said that I can. He might get mine out today. Boom. Whoo. Lucky. I'm in the office.

Robert Greiner 3:55

Oh, yeah. They can just go pick it up. Yeah. I don't know if I mentioned but my work laptop. I grabbed the day before we shut everything down. Just by happenstance. You'll have a new laptop next week, then. That's good. I'll be fun. So you drag your microphone into the office?

Charles Knight 4:12

Yes. I bought a little one of those Pelican style like padded waterproof cases. And I got a different just tabletop mini mic stand. I brought my mic, my Focusrite Scarlett thing. I also brought a ring light that I haven't been using. But I think I would if I was presenting something to a client or something like that. Oh, it's like a little mobile audio visual kit. I think I will only use it for recording. I just, it's a hassle to set it up and tear it down. So I don't know. Experimenting? Yeah,

Robert Greiner 4:44

I have some sound panels. Now. I'm gonna take them up to the office and install them in one of the conference rooms.

Charles Knight 4:48

Yeah, we should claim one is our studio. Yeah. Until we get our actual studio.

Robert Greiner 4:53

Yeah, why not? No,

Charles Knight 4:55

that's a deep dive would use it. I use it for them. I love it.

Robert Greiner 4:58

And that's the whole point of holocracy. If you do whatever you want, and it's up to someone else to raise attention

Igor Geyfman 5:04

As long as it causes no harm, right?

Robert Greiner 5:06

someone else in to, to feel attention that it causes them harm and then express the tension. And you're not allowed to sense attention for someone else's role. So that's pretty specific. I think we could get away with, installing some panels.

Charles Knight 5:21

The problem is we don't embrace that. We don't actually embrace holocracy see in that way. So somebody else will probably just get pissed and

Robert Greiner 5:29

yeah, yeah, whatever. Whatever. Man. So Jamie's retired. That's cool.

Igor Geyfman 5:36

She beat all of us.

Robert Greiner 5:37

Boy, she beat all of us. That's

Charles Knight 5:39

she's almost got a first draft of her book done too. That's cool. She's got 50,000 words written already.

Robert Greiner 5:45

Goodness.

Charles Knight 5:46

Yeah.

Robert Greiner 5:47

Good for her, man. That's great.

Charles Knight 5:48

Yeah. proud of her. She's killing it. killing it.

Igor Geyfman 5:53

I don't know 50,000 words,

Robert Greiner 5:55

Charles, do not. You do not. Point. Some of those are the number of words you said on the podcast will eclips. 50,000. You can make a jump on it today, though. Yeah, for sure. Okay, sure. We need because we're wrapping up nine lies about work,

Igor Geyfman 6:15

man, what a journey.

Robert Greiner 6:17

Let's go around, do we want to talk, to want to iterate through the nine lines, you just want to give your general like feelings and overview about the book and talk about which ones you liked it. Mike, how do you want to handle this?

Igor Geyfman 6:29

Yeah, I think maybe we can give our general impression. Talk about maybe the one that resonated with us the most as being accurate or something else. And then one that we felt the most dubious about? Does that sound like a good way to wrap that up?

Robert Greiner 6:44

Yeah, I like that. That way. We don't linger too long. We don't need to recap all the content.

Igor Geyfman 6:48

Yeah, yeah, folks can just listen to our backups and get all that from that.

Charles Knight 6:52

I'm okay with that. I think I may need some help. Just because I didn't read it inside. I may need some help. jogging my memory. But as long as we just list out the nine lines, I bet I could respond to that which ones I was most dubious about or most impactful?

Igor Geyfman 7:07

Yeah, let me start with that, Charles. And then that can be our jumping off point.

Robert Greiner 7:11

Look at Igor trying to get those 50,000 words in. I love it, man.

Igor Geyfman 7:15

I gotta go. I gotta catch up to Jamie.

Robert Greiner 7:16

Itirate those nine lines are the transcript.

Igor Geyfman 7:21

Alrighty, boys got lie number one, people care which company they work for. That's where it all started so long ago. Lie number two was the best plan wins. Lie number three, the best companies cascade goals. Lie number four, the best people are well rounded. Lie number five, people need feedback. Lie number six, people can reliably rate other people. Lie number seven, people have potential. Lie number eight, work life balance matters most. And the last lie, lie number nine, leadership is a thing. Those start ringing a bell Charles?

Charles Knight 8:04

They do. Yes.

Robert Greiner 8:05

Yes. Igor. That was 72 words. Well done.

Igor Geyfman 8:07

Thank you for counting.

Robert Greiner 8:12

You want to react first? Charles?

Charles Knight 8:14

Yeah, I can react first, I think because we're gonna react to the like, what's most dubious? Which one's the most dubious? And then like, what

Robert Greiner 8:22

Which one resonated the most? Which one of the most most success to you? Yeah.

Charles Knight 8:27

You sound like my child, Robert.

Igor Geyfman 8:30

That's that's all thanks to among us, I think right by game. Yeah. Started that.

Charles Knight 8:35

Yeah, I think, gosh, the stuff that I'm I feel is most dubious. I'm trying to remember our conversations that and I don't, but just looking that at them again. The best people are well rounded. What is the truth there. The best people are spiking, the best people are spiky man at this point. I don't think any of these are really dubious. I don't think they are. I think the most interesting thing that I'll take away from this that I still need to ponder is the last one, and I looked it up so that y'all don't have to read it for me. The lies leadership is a thing. And the truth or whatever is that we follow spikes that right?

Robert Greiner 9:14

Charles Knight 9:36

I think that's the one that I'm eating to reflect upon. Because I am a leader. I want to be a more effective leader. And what are my spikes that people are following that I want people to follow that I can get, you know, spikier in so that more people will follow. I think that's the one that has me more most interested Doing some deeper reflection on them if that makes sense, because that one I think has the potential to change my behaviors, day to day. Some of these other ones, especially the best companies cascade goals. No, actually the best companies cascade meaning it's like, okay, yeah, I can see that. Yes, that last one people follow spikes, spiky people, what am I spikes? Are those the right ones, given what I want to accomplish? And what I'm trying to do? That's just where my head's at, as we recap these things.

Sounds good. Was it worth going through all the energy to read and talk about the book? I know you didn't read it, but you spent just as much time as anyone else who did discussing the ideas and concepts? Was it a worthwhile thing to spend your time on?

Yeah, I'm trying to come up with a joke to say here, but I can't think of anything. Yes, for a few reasons. I learned a lot. There was some dissonance in the early stages as we're trying to unpack the lies and the style of the authors. But the fact that I've, that this is making me reflect and think about how to change my leadership style, I think, points to this being all worth it in the end. And I get to spend a lot of time with ya'll talking about interesting things that can be helpful for others. So well worth it for sure. Awesome.

Yeah, you won't, I recommended the book. But in hindsight, I feel like I'd be pretty honest, if I felt like I changed my mind about it, if I change my mind about it. And I think I recommended it because at the time of the reading, this was years and years ago, there's some just distant parts of it that just struck a nerve when I read it, because of stuff sort of going on. And in a positive way, like I read it, and upon reading it and the reflection that I had, after reading it and helped me make progress. And it was it was a positive read positive experience. And so I thought it'd be a good recommendation. And I knew some of the lies were written in a click Beatty way. And might pique your interest and people's interest, especially around some of the lies the way they're written, seem like they're antithetical to the culture at our company. But actually, when you read the truce, and you understand why they chose to phrase those things in those certain ways, that's actually not as controversial as it might seem, just reading the headline, I that's why I recommended it. And I think it was a really worthwhile thing to review with you all, because it also helped me gain some new perspectives, and thinking on what we've gone over, because it's very different. When you read a book on your own, your inner inter, internalizing the answers, got any information in the data from the book, processing it reflecting, then when you're discussing it with people you respect and admire that have different contexts and different thoughts, obviously, and different ways of processing and reflecting on that information. So it really enriches that experience and two very different, I would say, readings, happened the first time that I read it by myself. And then the second time when I co wrote it with you all on

the discussion. I remember you saying or reflecting on the fact that you tended to read the book a little more critically, since you had to go and discuss it. And I think that's interesting for a really important books that are impactful in your life, or that you really want to digest is spend some time talking through it with other people who are reading it as well. And that helps galvanize your learning and distilling it into areas that where you can put in your own words and really wrestle with the ideas. Yeah, I

like it. I'm guessing that's why book clubs exist.

Yeah, must be. Yeah. You know,

I have never been part of a book club before.

You have I guess you are now. Yeah,

I guess. I didn't connect that dog as well. Yeah.

It's a very, it's a very intimate book club, three people. Very, very high quality.

Yeah. Just in that we can't accommodate any more microphones. Technical limitation.

We've literally run out of boards to plug microphones into. Yes, sorry. Yeah. So maybe I can talk about just really briefly about which lie made me squint. And which lie really resonated with me. So the one that really made me think, because I think both times that I read it, it came during a review period, where we are writing reviews for farming mentees and so on. And it's Lie Number six, and it's that people can reliably rate other people and that lie actually isn't click Beatty like that or the way that it's written you actually mean that there is no reliable instrumentation that someone possesses to be able to objectively rate another human being and, you know, kind of whole and holistic way and so you know, that one always makes me think, especially during review season when I talked to folks, and all really reminds me to do is to be more curious and to dig deeper into the conversations that I have, and those conversations then help build a picture and not have just one narrative that drives the drives, the review drives the rating, if you will. And it also, on my end, as a person being reviewed, makes me much more conscious about my interactions with folks. And knowing that different people perceive me in different contexts in different ways, and have different thinking patterns. And that, for them to have a positive experience for them to feel safety, I have to work on adjusting my approach with every person and tailor that experience. And that's not that can sound like, oh, Igor is just being fake, and just doing stuff that aligns with people on and so on. And I don't see it that way at all. I see it as I'm still expressing myself. But if a trans, right, I'm just translating the core into a language that the other person can fully understand. I'm not acting in some drastically different way with people and so on. So yeah, that's a lie that that I think resonated positively with me. And I don't know, I'm like reviewing these lies. And I'm thinking about which one is the most dubious.

Before you switch, they advocated? Because we are not able to rate other people effectively, that people should rate only themselves. Is that was that the guidance or the I was really sponsor

You can only convey your experience with the person that's being rated? So you can't say how good they are at a arbitrary set of skills. It's like how much do you trust them to get things done or those that type of deal?

So it makes me think, you know, the the implications of that as it comes down to performance management? Yeah, I was thinking that there are companies out there that are experimenting with, and I'll come back around to this, because I remember that the subtitle of the book, maybe it's nine lies about work of free thinking leaders guide to the real world, the free thinking piece, I just looked up the definition. It's a viewpoint that beliefs are supposed to be formed based off of like logic, reason, empirical evidence, and not dogma tradition. And that made me think that there are companies out there that are experimenting with allowing people to set their own salaries. Have y'all heard about this?

Sort of vegetable processing plant?

Yeah, I've heard of the vegetable pricing, I think is tomatoes, in particular, like to end?

Yeah. But the trick is that it's all aboveboard, and everybody gets to see it and object to it. If there's a problem.

because because I think there is, it might be hard for a person to rate another. But I do think there's something around the collective wisdom crowdsourcing a rating, for example, I don't know. It's just that one. If I could go back and revise my answer. Yes, I agree with you and the book that it's hard to rate. And we're not good at rating other people. And yet, there's still a need, I believe, to effectively figure out how somebody is doing against a standard in order to do things like performance management, and set compensation and all these other things. And I know I don't doubt that I don't remember the book getting into that. But that's, that would be interesting to explore. You get rid of ratings. And there's some other mechanism. Performance Management is just a dogma, and a tradition that needs to be let go as free thinkers. Yeah, that's the that's maybe where there's some next, the next innovation will come. And companies are experimenting with that, in terms of getting rid of performance reviews, and allowing people to set salaries and also allowing people to figure out where, what job and project they want to be a part of not immediately telling them what their job is supposed to do. I have to give them time to go seek it out and figure that out. A self organize. Those are all very interesting things that will be a part of the future work. That'd be pretty interesting.

I think, to me, the big takeaway during our performance reviews wasn't even so much of what we shouldn't do performance reviews, or we shouldn't do them in the way that we do them. Although we should question those things. And for us, performance reviews are just, I think, larger check ins, the expectation is that whoever the manager, whoever the mentor is having regular check ins as a manager, you're probably having regular check ins with your directs as the mentor. Hopefully you're having check ins at least every other week, and and there's all these sort of feedback systems and the performance review is just should be a small spike in that cycle. And as a way to maybe set a season, and for I guess for documentation, if your company feels that's an important part of that they need to operate. So to me, the big takeaway is we reading after reading that chapter is I should not put a person in a box of that person is a slacker or something like that, just because of my perception of them, right? Like, I need to have more context and more people's perceptions to understand. And that label in that way is not useful anyway. No. So that's, that was my big takeaway, I think from that a little bit more than just let's Chuck performance reviews. And then yeah, so I'm still looking at these lies. And, man, I don't know, maybe Lie Number five, in because there's like a definitional line that gets blurred here. And I think sometimes, I use a much more expansive definition of feedback than maybe what the authors have in mind or what most people think about. Because the truth is, people need attention. And I, at least the way that I think about feedback, and I use feedback, and I expect feedback, is a feedback and attention are, if it's a Venn diagram, the two circles have a lot of overlap, if that makes sense.

Yep.

Yeah. So that's probably my most from just from a title perspective, most dubious one,

I think I'm with you on that, too. It's like to giving feedback is a way of giving attention

that requires you to pay attention to it.

The other thing that requires too is like caring. So I'm playing around with this yet. They don't need feedback. They need somebody to care, which requires somebody to pay attention and to want to help and be thoughtful about feedback, and stuff like that. Yeah, attention is such a is probably a very deliberate that they chose that it's just so neutral. Attention has this neutral valence to it. It's not positive or negative. Like caring is very much a positive thing I'm personally invested, which maybe it's fair, maybe there are certain leadership styles where Yeah, you don't want to get personally invested. And all you need is to pay attention. And so maybe the word

Well, they definitely, I think meant criticism, or the chapter was Yeah, people don't like to be criticized, which I think is true, they conflated that though with negative corrective feedback, which I think is helpful.

Yeah. Yeah.

And that type of feedback is only half the coin, right? Like I feedback, my universe is a neutral term feedback is both positive, neutral and correct.

Yeah, high performing, teams just can't get can't meet their full potential without some addressing of negative feedback, improving on areas that need improving on, you can focus the lion's share of your attention on reinforcing positive behaviors, that's great, we definitely recommend that you have to address when people mess up, and ask them to do things differently. Especially because a lot of times they don't even know,

it's something that I was thinking about Robert, too just recently, there's some news kind of making headlines about a company that I'm a big fan of have been a big fan of their products, and so on. And the news is not particularly flattering. And at the core of the news is that company has failed across different levels of the organization to keep people safe. And to me as maybe the sounds a little weird, but safety is maybe the only thing that the leader should care about. And a lot of people will hear that and say, I don't know, really know what that means. And we're creating some sort of carebear company, and what do you mean, just safety. And, but safety also comes from delivering negative feedback, right? If a part of the team and individual or set or individuals are underperforming, or doing something that endangers the rest of the team, it has to be addressed. And it has to be addressed clearly. And the team actually has to know that it's been addressed, it can't just be a behind the closed doors sort of thing. And that's part of creating safety. Now, in that moment, you might set that individual probably doesn't, doesn't feel very safe to whoever you're addressing that with. And I think that just depends on how you deliver that message. But if you never address, you know, sort of distracting or negative things, then the whole team doesn't feel safe, because that individual is putting them at risk. How are you going to interpret that?

Yeah, I didn't even said in the chapter. I think these example if if you have a nurse that gives the wrong medicine to a patient, of course you have to address it. I think there's an understanding or a articulation of Yeah, you're going to have to address like negative behaviors, toxic behaviors, incorrect behaviors and outcomes. The focus in their mind should be on paying attention to the upside the positive things your team does to reinforce. And I think they got it like half righ in that chapter, I'd say.

Yep. Yep. Agreed. Robert, what about you?

Yeah, I went back and forth on this book, I think it was really helpful to go through to read, I love to talking about it with you, if you're a leader, if you aspire to be a leader, these are problems, issues that need to be wrestled with, regardless of what your professional opinion is. So time spent reading and discussing a couple that, you know, really resonated with me. People care which company they work for know they care about the team they're on, obviously, the humans around them can make or break their experience doesn't matter where you work. So I really thought that was a good way to start the book. The best plan doesn't win on lie two the direction I thought they were going to go was more the best argument for the plan, like the best plan doesn't always win. There's humans involved. There's drama involved, there's backstabbing involved, like you have to manage that. And so that one went a little bit of an interesting direction. And I like to work life balance one around, it really matters that you love what you do. And then you don't have to love everything you do all the time. 20% might be enough. But you have to find things about your work that, that you love to make it sustainable. And so those really, I think, resonated with me, they've informed the way that I lead teams, the way that I interact with work. So overall, yeah, it was good. I think for me, the reliably rating other people like I get what they're saying there. If I view that for my teams as well, there are people I really trust their people I don't quite know well enough, I need to suss out whether or not they can handle certain levels of responsibility. So I get that when it comes to compensation when it comes to performance reviews, that's not terribly standard. And so you can have people that do that poorly or, subjectively, I think you could get yourself into a little bit of trouble. And so I think, you know, that paired with what we've already talked about with feedback, there's very clearly an issue here where this stuff doesn't really scale too much. And so if your organization is sufficiently large, you might have trouble following some of this guidance. It could cause harm. But I'm also wondering, what does that matter, if you scope this down to an individual team, I think this makes a lot more sense. And maybe the individual team leaders and their direct reports, should operate in a lot of these truths, and avoid a lot of these lies. And it all comes back down to resonating, working with connecting with growing with a team to achieve great results. So if you've got that lens on it, I think these things can make a lot more sense. If you try to scale it out to a really large organization, you might run into some trouble.

Yeah, I don't know how else you would try to, you know, roll this out, except at the at the individual and team level. And if I go back to some of the discussions that we had about this book, it really is targeted, to try to convince leaders to be more free thinking, Man, I think we even talked about that phrase and debated what that meant. And we're probably more free thinking than then the average person just given the company and the environment that we've grown up in together. Because I was trying to think, would I recommend this book to somebody? And I would say, probably my initial reaction was like, No, I don't think I would. And I just tried to understand why was that my reaction? I was like, I think it's targeted towards a specific audience at a specific point in their career. And it's probably right at the cusp of them moving into a position where they're managing and then leading. Like, that's probably the best time to try to break some of the traditional, dogmatic beliefs around what does it mean to be a leader, old school, old power dynamics, leadership behaviors, and install some good new ones? I think that this has a place to be recommended to people that are just starting off on their leadership journey. Before, before old behaviors and bad habits are inherited. From those around us sort of thing.

Yeah, yeah, that's a great point. If I was gonna pass the book out, I might cut out lies 234567. And do you know people care which company they work for work life balance matters. Most leadership is a thing. I think those are the highlight reel of the book that's generally applicable to anyone's professional life. If you had someone that had the bad habit, Charles, like you're talking about that one of these lies could address with stories with data with evidence with survey results. I think that can make a lot of sense as well. And maybe that's the point, right? These things are kind of discreet, and you can take them at face value individually. And it can be like Marshall Goldsmith wrote a great book. What got you here won't get you there. There's 20 bad habits in there. And he says, you're probably only afflicted by 123 of these. And those are the ones you should focus on. And you should only focus on them if they're actually causing harm. And if they're not, maybe you don't need to worry about it. And so I find it unlikely that all seven or sorry, all nine lives would apply to someone, the same person uniformly. But there's some nuggets in here that I think could really help inform your leadership style certainly gives you things to think about even if you disagree. It'll help harden your argument for why you disagree. And I think that's okay, too. So it's definitely useful. I don't know I'm with you, I would have to be a niche recommendation, it would have to have some purpose behind it. I don't know that I would just tweet this out as Hey, you should, everyone should go by and read this book.

Yeah, and I totally agree. And as somebody who read this book in the past, and I'm a book recommendation machine, I think I've only recommended this book to one person, just usually how I recommend books is, I'll be having conversation with someone will hit upon some sort of topic. They'll make me connect that topic to an article or book or chapter or book that I've read. And I'll make recommendation. And I have, you know, a series of books that I recommend all the talking pretty generically. And this specific book, yeah, I've recommended only once, and really specifically only for the last lie. And it was a way to encourage this person. I think they were getting some feedback around something like you don't have enough charisma to be a leader or something like that. And I was like, That's such BS, right? Like nothing. Nowhere is it written that you have to have 32 points in your charisma to be considered a leader. And so if anybody is telling you, that's the reason, and that's the sole reason that's either just inaccurate, or they're not able to communicate the truth or whatever. And anybody telling you that you're lacking some trait or some set of traits to be a leader? I'm gonna just probably say that's like a pretty toxic conversation anyway. Yeah, that's super niche recommendation. But when we were thinking about books to do for the podcast, and thinking about the folks that we want to resonate with, on our podcast, this book seemed like a good way to have a pretty good wide range of conversations about different topics and management and leadership, and taking on the mantle of love leader.

Yep, most definitely.

Yep, absolutely agree.

It did lead to some great discussions. I'm glad we went through it.

Man that said, That wraps up our really our second book and second season. So that's, that's pretty awesome. I'm pretty blessed that I'm able to go on this journey with y'all and keep going.

Yeah, we should pepper in more sort of deep dive into books and reactions and interpretations on how it impacts us personally and professionally. I think there's does really lead to some rich discussions when you start overlaying those different layers on top of just a book that is targeted for a more general audience that makes it more specific and seen through the lens of another group of people. And so hopefully, that that will be helpful. So I definitely think we should do more like this. In the future.

I'm looking forward to the next one. I think for the next one. I want to read it. I think it was interesting to get an outsider's take, but I think I definitely missed out on some learning and contributions to the discussion because it was designed for me to not read it.

I think you were busy.

I know, I just lazy just, that's all.

I'm not sure that was terribly helpful, like a hot take, because there's just too much context. Yeah. So yeah. I don't know that we wouldn't do that again.

Agreed.

But good on you for admitting to your laziness. I mean, you have taken every other week off for the last month. Yeah. That's the way to do it. That's the way Yeah, I think that there's something there, man.

It wasn't by design. But yeah, that it is certainly an interesting strategy. I don't know if I'll do it again. I'm not sure more to unpack.

When we get to our vacation.

Until someone tells you to stop.

Actually, I have been doing it since the beginning of the year. And yeah, now.

They're noticed, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Not telling anybody, right. That never backfired. Alright, hey, it was great. Connecting with you. I we did tee up in our previous episode that we're going to be a little sporadic, episode wise over the summer. I think that's a great thing. We got family stuff going on. vacations, things like that. But we're not stopping by any means. And so well, I think we're on the schedule to record next week, so hopefully we can make that happen.

Yeah, looking forward to it.

Alright guys, man, have a great week.

Take care.

Bye.

Bye.

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