In this episode, we discuss Senate Bill 1027 with subject matter expert Amber England. Amber outlines the myths surrounding the bill and its potential consequences on Oklahoma's ballot initiative process. We delve into the historical context of ballot initiatives, the significant changes proposed by SB 1027, and the upcoming Supreme Court case. Amber highlights key dangers of the bill including the cap on signatures, involvement of the Secretary of State, and the overall threat to Oklahoma's democratic processes. Join us to understand why this issue is crucial and what it means for the future of state questions in Oklahoma.

Hi, welcome to, um, this episode that we have.

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This one's on Senate Bill 10 27.

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Amber England is gonna be with us.

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I said that she was a

subject matter expert.

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I think she is, but she talked a

little bit about that process of a

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ballot initiative, which it's about.

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I've got a couple of notes

on what we talked about.

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One is, um, that 10 27

is consequential mm-hmm.

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To a ballot initiative.

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And what we first started

out in the constitution.

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Over a hundred years ago.

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How about you?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, um, I think um, she did

a really good job of outlying um, kind

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of the myths that we hear about Senate

Bill 10 27, um, and that there's a big

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Supreme Court case on November 18th,

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Amber England: 10:00 AM So she did

mention this is, uh, important to

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all of us, and maybe we could get

a big crowd there too for that.

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Um, so we'll get started.

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Speaker 2: Thanks.

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Amber England: Well, today,

um, we're so excited.

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I'm between two Ellens

to have Amber England.

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You are a friend of mine.

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I've, I'm, I appreciate all the

conversations that we've had about

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10, 27 and other things that have

to do with battle initiatives.

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And so we're happy to have you give

us a little description or a little

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background about why you are the

subject matter expert for this.

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Speaker 4: Well, first, thank

you for having me, Ellen.

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And Ellen.

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It's serendipitous because I actually

met Rep Po- Pogemiller, um, at a coffee

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shop to talk about Medicaid expansion

and she was still working at, yeah.

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And so, um, one of the things I

love about state question mark

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is just the connections that you

make with community members who

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are passionate about that thing.

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It is that you're pushing

and it's, it's really.

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Um, it's, it, it, it's cross

partisan, you know, you can actually

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get further in a conversation.

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Uh, and so I just, um, I love that

that's how we connected mm-hmm.

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Was the straight state question mark.

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And I would say the reason why I, I would,

you know, I don't know that I'm a subject

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better expert in anything other than maybe

like, uh, at this point figuring out how

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to get my child out of bed for school.

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But, but I've done quite a

bit of work, um, on state

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questions throughout the years.

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My first one, um.

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Was in 2016.

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We actually filed it in

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We were trying to get education funding.

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We lost miserably, but we were

able to elevate the issue and

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really put apply pressure to

the legislature to do something.

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Two sessions later they did,

um, and they actually funded

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education at the highest level.

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Then they raised taxes,

which they hadn't done since.

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Another state question went into

effect, which was state questions.

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Um, and so that's, uh, as I am explaining

all these state questions, they really

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have impacted policy and politics.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, for as long as our state has been

a state and 10 27 is really a danger

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to Oklahoma's right to the ballot.

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It is a power grab from politicians

who wanna keep and hold power for

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themselves, and it's unnecessary.

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Oklahoma has one of the hardest state

question processes in the country.

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And 10 27 is going to make it impossible.

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So while we might still have an

initiative petition process in

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our constitution, practically

speaking, we won't have it at all.

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Should 10, 27 state,

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Amber England: so to tell us about

10 27, talk about what that is.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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So what we have seen in recent

years at the state legislature, and

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I would say this began, um, right

after Medicaid expansion passed in

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2020, we saw the legislature start

chipping away little by little.

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Um, uh, I think, you know, if you're,

if you're in a debate in the State

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house or the state senate, this is

what maybe a lawmaker will call putting

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the camel's nose under the tent.

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And so that's basically what happened.

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Uh, starting with, uh, the

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They changed the form, um, which

was, you know, oh, this is gonna be

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a great way to be able to not ever

have to have a signature challenge.

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Or, you know, is this gonna

be bringing us into the new.

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You know, era or whatever, but

it was, it was done for a reason.

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It was step one in their brick by

brick plan to actually dismantle,

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uh, the state question process.

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And 10 27 is what I would

say the final brick.

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Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 4: Um, and I don't know, maybe

they can find even more terrible things

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to do, but essentially it, what 10 27

does is it requires a cap of signatures.

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So once you hit that cap of

signatures across the state.

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By county you can't, you

can't collect anymore.

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So it essentially disenfranchises every

Oklahoma voter, regardless if they live in

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rural Oklahoma or they live right here in

downtown Oklahoma City or downtown Tulsa.

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It disenfranchises voters.

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Because right now our process

allows anybody to sign the state

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question at any point in the process,

they can sign it once, uh, and

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it is a felony to sign it twice.

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And we don't have fraud in our process.

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Uh, it's a very, very, um.

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Secure process.

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So this was an unnecessary change,

and it was, I, I would say it was

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a change to try to make it harder

for signature collectors to actually

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gain the signatures they needed.

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Um, so that's one of the big changes.

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Another big change is allowing

the Secretary of State to actually

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write the gist of the petition.

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And the gist of the petition is what you

see at the top of the signature sheet.

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So it gives a little synapsis.

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Of what that state question is.

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If you wanna get into the weeds as

a voter, you can actually read the

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entire state question because our

law requires that the full law be

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attached to the signature sheet.

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And so the gist is

there just to help them.

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But if they wanna read the whole, the

whole entire, you know, policy, then they

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can actually just, you know, flip through

the, the policy that has to be stapled.

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The staple can never come off.

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Um, and so there's many, many ways that

voters can actually ensure that they

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know exactly what they're voting for.

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There's no reason for the Secretary

of State to get involved in

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writing the gist of the petition.

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Um, it invokes politics.

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It allows an unelected political appointee

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Speaker 3: mm-hmm.

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Speaker 4: Uh, to invoke politics into

a process that should not be there.

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Um, I would say that that to me is

the most dangerous change of 10 27.

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You see other states that have

done this, um, there's language

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written on that gist that simply.

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It makes it more difficult to

get signatures and sometimes

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tries to turn this policy into

something that actually is not.

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Um, and so imagine if you

allowed, you know, a partisan

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half to write legislation.

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You have subject matter experts

writing your bills at the

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state legislature, lawyers.

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Yeah, that's who writes the gist

of petitions for state questions.

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Typically, it is an attorney

who knows law that writes both

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the gist and the actual law.

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So we're now allowing.

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An unelected political appointee,

probably a partisan hack.

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Mm-hmm.

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Uh, that, that writes that gist.

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Speaker 3: Um,

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Speaker 4: and it's unfair and

it is again, just another way for

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politicians at 23rd and even to grab

power and keep it for themselves.

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Speaker 2: I have a funny story

that is a little tangent, but

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just, um, when we lived in Ohio, my

husband and I, there were two state

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questions on the ballot and they had

to do with smoking, and it was the.

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The main point of the law was to

kind of reduce smoking in bars was

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kind of the goal, but instead there

was a bill put up by the public

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health committee, by community, and

then by the, um, tobacco industry.

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Mm-hmm.

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In order for the bill to

actually get through so that

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we could have less smoking.

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You had to vote yes on one

and vote no on the other.

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And one of them was like, you know,

smoke free and the other one was

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smoke less, and it was so confusing.

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So people had to have signs

in their yard that was like.

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Vote yes, vote no in order

to get to this, you know?

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And I feel like in Oklahoma we

actually, to your point, have

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never had confusing language or,

um, you know, it, I don't know.

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I just like that becomes really

problematic when you described it that

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Speaker 4: way.

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Yeah.

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There, there are safeguards

now in our process.

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So right now, the proponents,

so if Ellen and Ellen want to

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go file an initial petition as a

citizen of the state of Oklahoma.

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They have the power to write that gist.

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Mm-hmm.

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And then if someone doesn't agree with

that gist, um, then the opposition to

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the challenger would file a Supreme

Court challenge and say, we believe

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this gist is unconstitutional.

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And then the courts decide that.

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Mm-hmm.

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Right.

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This is before, this is before, correct.

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Mm-hmm.

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And so if it is ruled unconstitutional or

that it doesn't, you know, apply, then the

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court says, sorry, you gotta start over.

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Mm-hmm.

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That's happened in a state

question that I worked on.

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So we had to rewrite the gist

and go back and try again.

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Um, but, and then the ballot title

is actually submitted as well.

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Uh, at, at the time.

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The ballot title is what Voters See

in the Ballot Box once you actually

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qualify, that's submitted as you actually

go and file your initial petition.

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And then when you turn in your signatures,

the Attorney General has certain, many

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of days to actually say whether or not

he or she wants to make changes to.

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Um, the ballot title and at any point, if

so, he'll submit or she will submit their

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language for the ballot ballot title.

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If any side anyone wants to

contest that ballot title, that

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would also go to the court.

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So at no point is there a political

actor, uh, a political appointee,

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uh, an unelected, uh, bureaucrat

that is involved in that process.

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And so that safeguards the state question,

process from, uh, from partisanship.

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Before, you know, it gets to

the ballot box and even when

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it gets in the ballot box,

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Amber England: the misinformation

about oh seven is just huge.

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Yeah.

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Uh, someone had told me that 10

27 told a, a large group of people

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that I was, that makes the, uh,

initiative process more representative.

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Yeah.

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Because they keep talking

about all counties and stuff.

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Explain.

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How the numbers are for each county

out, how many signatures we can get

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with each county before, but with

10 27 changes and maybe the smallest

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county and how many signatures

they can gain after this 10, 27.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, like it's,

it's pretty, it's pretty big.

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Yeah.

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So I don't, I'm not gonna

know exact numbers here.

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Okay.

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But it's pretty small.

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So now at the state question process.

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You can go to all 77 counties and

collect as many signatures as you want.

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Mm-hmm.

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You have to turn in a certain number

of signatures, um, valid signatures

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in order to qualify for the ballot,

uh, and that that number is based

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on the gubernatorial turnout.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, and so for right now, for

constitutional state questions, it's

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a little north of 170,000 and for

statutory changes, it's a little

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north of, I think, 90,000 signatures.

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Um, and so you collect in as many

places and as many counties as

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you can get to in those 90 days.

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What really makes the, the state

question process is that 90 day window.

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And so if they really wanted the

state question process to be more

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representative, they could increase the

number of days, uh, to let's say 120 days.

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So that would be six months

or a, a full year or not put

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a limit on the number of days.

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So that you could actually, you

know, get, get to more counties.

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'cause as a, as a campaign right

now, because of the 90 day window,

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every signature collection process

I've been involved in, we have

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been able to get signatures from

all 77 counties and we have vol.

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These are volunteers.

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So these are folks who live in places

like Idabell and Denmore and Alga that

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are carrying around the signature sheets

because they care about that issue.

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So these aren't paid.

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And signature gathers going

out to these rural counties.

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These are community members carrying

around these, uh, these petitions.

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So now with the change

with 10 27, there's a cap.

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So, um, I believe it's 11% that

you can get for constitutional.

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So 11% of the total number of registered

voters, and I think it's either, I know

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it's 8% or nine, i, I can't remember the

percent per statutory, but essentially.

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Um, it just puts a, a hard cap.

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So now if you are, let's say you're

out collecting an Oklahoma County.

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Mm-hmm.

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You know, if you wanted to, as it's as

a state question, you could collect as

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many signatures as you wanted to get.

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Anyone who wanted to sign that could

Now, as, as soon as they hit that

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cap, they have to stop collecting

signatures in Oklahoma County.

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So I live in Oklahoma County.

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There was a state question

that kicked off yesterday.

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Uh, or maybe two days ago on open

primaries, if I wanted to sign that

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petition and they've already hit that

cap, then I can't sign the petition.

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That takes my right away as an Oklahoman

to be able to sign that petition.

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Mm-hmm.

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Same thing if you're

living in Harmon County.

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Um, and at Harmon County's way out

in the panhandle, you know, small

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percentage of registered voters

who, who, uh, who live out there.

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And so I think the number is like

less than 30 people would actually

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be able to sign, or 80 people.

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I mean, it's a tiny number of

people who would be able to

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actually be eligible to sign.

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And so if they are saying that it is

more representative, it is just a way

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for them to, I think, say, you know,

really hide to the truth of what they're

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trying to do, which is essentially

just grab power from the legislature.

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They don't want Oklahomans

using this process.

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They want.

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Every bill, every policy, they

want to control that because who

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do they work with to do that?

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They work with lobbyists.

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They work, you know, they're not

actually out having to talk to

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real voters about this stuff.

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You know, we were able to pass

Medicaid expansion after 10

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years of the legislature not

being able to make it through.

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Same thing with criminal justice.

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For you think term limits

ever would've passed.

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Had the legislature been able to do that?

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No.

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It took an initial petition

process and people actually

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getting that done, so it's.

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You know, both political stripes have

used this state question process to push

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the legislature when they failed to act.

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And, and that is what this tool is.

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It's a populous tool.

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Mm-hmm.

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To say to lawmakers, Oklahoma, people

deserve a say in the types of policies

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that they want passed because they

have real problems in their lives.

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And if their politicians aren't

gonna fix those problems, then

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they wanna step up and do the same.

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Speaker 2: It was I, I know some of

the people debated that, like people

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are signing a petition that they don't

know anything about, you know, and

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therefore you know that they're confusing

people before it goes to the ballot.

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And I thought many people sign

a ballot initiative because they

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want the opportunity to learn

more and see it on the ballot.

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Yeah.

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You know, and so I don't, I never

understood that like a ballot

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signature doesn't necessarily mean

that you're for or against it.

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It means that you believe that the

state, you know, as a whole, shouldn't

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have a choice, should have a choice.

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And that is, you know, that

is really frustrating to me.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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I think in every state question I've

been involved in, there have been

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many people who were not for the

actual policy sign it because they

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say, I want the right to vote on it.

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Mm-hmm.

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Amber England: Or for it,

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Speaker 4: I wanna be able to

decide this issue for myself.

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And that is the.

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Uh, that is the thing that this piece

of legislation is going to take away.

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We still have to pass a state

question in Oklahoma by 50% vote.

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Everyone can

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Amber England: vote on

it if you're a majority.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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A a majority of voters in the

state of Oklahoma have to pass.

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Yes.

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Um, you know, ha have to vote Yes.

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In order for a state

question to go into effect.

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And so, um, that is just.

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It, it's scare tactics.

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Mm-hmm.

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You know, them saying that folks

don't know what they're signing

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is they, I would welcome any state

lawmaker who wants to come with me

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to do signature collection mm-hmm.

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Or one of our volunteers, uh, to

see how the process actually works.

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And they may claim, well, I saw someone

collect and signatures down and, you know,

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scissor tail park, and they didn't, you

know, I saw people signing it, didn't

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know what they were talking about.

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These are just anecdotal things that

they're trying to say to scare people.

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Right, right.

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Like the process has worked for a

hundred over a hundred years and all

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of a sudden there's a problem with it.

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And why all of a sudden, because the

policies that have passed most recently

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are policies that this legislature that

is in charge now hasn't wanted to tackle.

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Mm-hmm.

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And I mean, we could get into why.

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I believe it's because like.

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Most of these elections

are decided in a primary.

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Mm-hmm.

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And they are listening to a very,

very small percentage of people.

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And so the, the, the, the bills that are

coming, the laws that are coming outta

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the legislature right now really aren't

a reflection of all Oklahoma voters.

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And we know that.

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Right.

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But they can control that process.

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Mm-hmm.

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When they can't control

the state question process.

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Now they're trying to do,

make the changes so they can.

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Amber England: You bring up, um, and

we spoke about this, about 10 27, the

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disenfranchised part of it, which I always

say anytime, you know, a DA did you look

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at a DA, which I still think it's a, we

moved people from rural because we did

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have healthcare into those populous areas.

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And so now again, um, we're

disenfranchising that, but.

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Where, so I feel that that's a big

thing to repeal that, that loss.

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So tell us where is 10 27 in, um,

some legal stuff that's going on.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so, uh, there

was a group of folks who filed a

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challenge at, in the Supreme Court, a

constitutional challenge to the law,

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and the Supreme Court has ordered

oral argument for that, uh, lawsuit.

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And it will be, um.

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It will be on November 18th, they're gonna

hear it in the Oklahoma Supreme Court.

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It's 10 o'clock in the morning.

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Um, I have been encouraging folks

to actually show up to that.

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Mm-hmm.

358

Um, because I think this is one of the

most consequential decisions that the,

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um, that the Supreme Court will actually

decide because in effect, if it holds,

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we will no longer have a state question.

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And so if and until we could maybe.

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You know, pass a state question

about state questions and get the

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process that we would actually want.

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We won't have a state question.

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Process of 10 27 is upheld.

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It will be nearly impossible to

actually utilize the very power

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that our constitution says is the

first power reserved for the people.

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And that power and that right

will go away should 10, 27 point,

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Amber England: because it is

going to be extremely hard.

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If 10, 27 passes, like you said.

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Yeah,

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Speaker 4: and there's all different

scenarios that could happen.

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They could throw out the entire law and

say the whole thing is unconstitutional.

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They could take parts of it because

it is severable and so they could take

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certain parts of it and say, well,

this part can stand, this part can go.

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There's other parts of it that it didn't

get into 'cause it kind of weedsy.

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Um, but they could just say

certain parts are unconstitutional.

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But I would also look for the

legislature regardless of what

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happens on 10 27, unless it's.

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Unless it's completely upheld, I would

see that potentially the legislature

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would try to come in and make even more

changes during this legislative session.

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And so I don't think we can take our

eye off the prize even if we are to, you

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know, win this constitutional challenge.

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We really do have to protect the Oklahoma

ballot measure process at all costs.

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I would say it's the only reason why many

of our rural hospitals haven't closed.

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Mm-hmm.

387

It's why we were able to deliver

healthcare to nearly, I think

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it was over 300,000 Oklahomans.

389

We were able to get criminal justice

reform, medical marijuana term limits.

390

We limited the size of government

in terms of what, you know, if taxes

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can be raised on Oklahoma families.

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I think that's huge.

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You know, I, I probably wouldn't

have voted for that law, but I wanted

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a right, you know, wanted right

to decide that issue for myself.

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But.

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All of these laws, conservative

laws, liberal laws, whatever you

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wanna call them, have all been

put in place from Oklahoma voters

398

through the state question process.

399

And it would be a shame

to see that go away.

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Amber England: So there may be a

ballot initiative process to save and

401

protect the ballot initiative process.

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Speaker 4: I think that I, I think

like in a perfect world, yes, you know,

403

there would need to be a lot of things

to happen, uh, to make that happen.

404

Current.

405

I mean, if 10 27 holds, you would

actually have to use the 10 27 process,

406

which then is nearly impossible to use.

407

So like, could you actually do it?

408

I don't, it would be very, very difficult.

409

So I think that if, if certain parts

are ruled unconstitutional or if all

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parts are ruled unconstitutional, you

know, there's a chance if it stands,

411

I think we're stuck with what we have.

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It's hard

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Amber England: the, the idea.

414

So in June we do have.

415

Something that we can

vote on and it's wages.

416

And you did a lot of work on the ballot

collecting and um, it's, uh, it's

417

interesting because that was brought

up the legislature to take care.

418

Yeah.

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Speaker 4: And there were changes

happening while we were going

420

through signature collection process.

421

So we didn't even know like, are we

gonna be under the three of five data

422

point or the four or five data point?

423

And so we collected way.

424

More than we probably needed, because we

were like, well, we're gonna collect as

425

if we're under the new four to five law.

426

And we were actually, um, under the

three of five law, so we qualified,

427

but it was very confusing, you know?

428

Mm-hmm.

429

And we, I mean, there was, at one

point there was a, a part of a, a

430

law that was gonna require every

volunteer to have a background check.

431

And this was as we were

trying to get off the ground.

432

And, you know, as a campaign,

we didn't have a lot of funding,

433

so we were having folks.

434

Sign a form saying that they would

agree to have a background check just

435

in case we had to be under that law.

436

And, and, and most of all, the

paid signature collectors all have

437

background checks, but volunteers,

um, are these folks who are, you know,

438

me, you, you we're all out there to

collecting signatures, but we made

439

everybody sign a form saying that

they agreed to a background check.

440

That law went away or it didn't

actually get signed into law.

441

But it was a very, very

confusing process and.

442

Uh, we were able to qualify, uh,

the state question, minimum wage.

443

That's, you know, and again,

something they could have decided.

444

Yep.

445

It hasn't been raised since 2009, and here

446

Um, and I don't know about any of you

guys, but I don't think that I could

447

live off 7 25 an hour and I think a,

a new law, a new, a new study just

448

came out that said, um, I think that.

449

So the, the current wages right now, I

don't think there is a spot in Oklahoma

450

that it, that 7 25 that's a living wage.

451

It's just, it's just not.

452

Speaker 2: Nope.

453

It's definitely not.

454

And I just think you had an

overwhelming amount of signatures

455

that supported this effort.

456

Correct.

457

Um, and so, and then another

ballot initiative, um, our

458

state question petition started.

459

Two days ago.

460

Yes.

461

Okay.

462

And so, and what is that one

that's currently taking place?

463

Yeah, so that,

464

Speaker 4: yeah, that is a open primary.

465

So they, the, they started on October

29th and they were delayed a lot because

466

of another change in our ele in our

election law, our state question law.

467

So they had a six month waiting period,

120 days after they actually filed their

468

initial petition used to, it was 10 days.

469

Uh, it went to 90 days, I'm sorry, 90

days on the front end and 90 days for

470

the back end for a total of 180 days.

471

But, um, so they had to wait three

months before they could actually,

472

and then at the end of that three

months, they got challenged.

473

And the person who challenged them

in court, the organization said,

474

well, we knew we would leave,

but we just wanted to delay them.

475

Mm-hmm.

476

So there's already

gamesmanship on the other side.

477

Um, and so they're out collecting

and that state question, if it

478

makes the ballot and if it passes.

479

Would, um, what they

call open the primaries.

480

So every um, person running would

appear on the ballot with their party

481

registration next to their name.

482

Everyone would be on the same

ballot, uh, on the primary ballot.

483

And then the top two vote getters,

um, regardless of party would

484

go to the general election.

485

It's how they do elections

in Tulsa and Oklahoma County.

486

Uh, for, um, so for mayor in,

in Tulsa and in Oklahoma City.

487

Missouri, uh, has the law.

488

I believe many places, uh,

Louisiana has that process.

489

These are very red states, so, um, but

you know, I think that like if a voter

490

wants to vote in a primary, they ought to.

491

And right now the Republican primaries

are completely closed and the

492

Democratic primary is partially open.

493

They allow independents to

vote in their primary, but if

494

you're a libertarian, too bad.

495

Um, so it disenfranchises a lot of voters

the way our primary system is, right.

496

Amber England: So are they collecting, do

you know if they're collecting signatures

497

like it's 10 27 or are they just, they

498

Speaker 4: got, um, they actually

filed up, um, a lawsuit and they

499

were, um, they were ruled that

they were not subject to 10 27.

500

So there's a retroactivity, so they

aren't subject to 10 27 for now.

501

Um, and so they're out collecting

and, uh, they got a temporary stay.

502

On 10 27.

503

So good for them.

504

It should not be applied to them.

505

They filed their state question

long before 10 27 was ever even,

506

I think, taken out a committee.

507

Amber England: Hmm.

508

Speaker 4: Yeah.

509

Amber England: Such

gamesmanship on that too.

510

And I think it's the, the idea, like how

you talk about, that was the first power

511

that we wanted, um, as a state over a

hundred years, over a hundred years ago.

512

And we are totally taking that away.

513

Yeah.

514

Speaker 4: Yeah.

515

I mean, I think the voters

516

Amber England: would come out.

517

I think people would come out

518

Speaker 4: Constitutionalists.

519

They don't really like the

Constitution that much, do they?

520

They

521

Amber England: only like some parts.

522

Speaker 4: Strong Constitution

for me, not for the

523

Amber England: Yes, yes, yes.

524

Was there anything else that

you'd like to talk about?

525

10 27?

526

Anything that we missed?

527

Speaker 4: No.

528

I'm just so thankful for

you, um, to highlight this.

529

It is a real, like I said, I think it is

one of the most consequential decisions

530

that the Supreme Court will make.

531

Um, in, um, in our state, and I don't

know that enough people know about it.

532

They're just trying to live their lives.

533

Mm-hmm.

534

They're trying to figure out how to

feed their family, pay their electric

535

bill, get to work on time, and these

legislature depends and hopes that

536

people don't know that this is going on.

537

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

538

Speaker 4: Um, because they know how

popular the state question process is.

539

They know how populous it is.

540

So that's why they're making these changes

during legislative session when they're

541

hopeful that no one's paying attention.

542

So I appreciate just the, the

elevating the issue, um, and talk

543

to your friends and family about it.

544

Speaker 3: Absolutely.

545

Speaker 4: Yeah.

546

Speaker 2: Well, the other thing that we

always do at the end of our podcast is

547

we ask our guests to ask us a question.

548

Okay.

549

Um, so if, do you have a question for us?

550

Sure.

551

Speaker 4: I do.

552

Okay.

553

So this is rooted in my like.

554

Shift in the way my daily living

happened after I had my daughter.

555

And I'm curious because you guys are moms.

556

Mm-hmm.

557

Uh, if it's shifted for you.

558

So the question is, are you a morning

shower person or a night shower person?

559

Oh, uh, have been always wellbeing

560

Speaker 2: morning shower.

561

Okay.

562

I'm a

563

Amber England: morning, I'm not.

564

I, well now I'm, I mean, I

think it's switched for me

565

that I can enjoy my mornings.

566

Now I'm empty nested.

567

So night showers are kind of fun.

568

'cause then.

569

In the morning.

570

I think it's relaxed, you know?

571

Speaker 2: Do you know what

changed me though is when, um,

572

I stopped washing my hair much.

573

Oh.

574

I'm gonna be real honest.

575

That was, I don't a game

changer for my time.

576

Yes.

577

You know, so.

578

That's right.

579

I just keep going one more day

and figure it out, so Yeah.

580

Speaker 4: Yeah.

581

I became a night shower

exclusively after I had Josie.

582

Um, I had a friend just explain to

me how relaxing it would be for me as

583

a mom to just have like 10 minutes.

584

In at night to myself in the shower

that would help me sleep better.

585

And so now, and so I started it like

right when I got home from the hospital.

586

Mm-hmm.

587

And now I cannot go to sleep

without taking a shower.

588

50.

589

That's nice.

590

Sometimes I'll take a

shower in the morning too.

591

Yeah.

592

But I never miss my next

shower, so I would just

593

wondered if you guys were That's

594

Amber England: self care.

595

I mean, yeah.

596

I wish someone would've told me that.

597

Speaker 4: Yeah.

598

Amber England: Maybe six years ago.

599

Yeah.

600

That's nice.

601

Well that's good.

602

Well thank you so much

again for coming on.

603

Speaker 4: Thank you guys for having me.

604

Three, four.