And this is just the way my mind works. When I understand how something works in its most granular way, I'm able to understand it so much more, make decisions so much better. And so I was wanting to have a guest on to talk about detoxification. This is such a big term, used in holistic medicine, alternative medicine.

What's happening? What do we not need to be doing? What should we be doing? And she, on the one hand, explains it so in depth, but on the other hand, makes it so, so simple. So I think this is gonna be a fabulous episode to listen to, but a quick introduction to Karen. She has an incredible story that began in 1989 when her 18 month old daughter was poisoned by a household pesticide.

Given only a year to live, Karen refused to accept that prognosis and dove into intensive research on healing through nutrition and against all odds, and to the amazement of doctors, her daughter fully recovered and is living a healthy life in her thirties. That experience launched Karen into the world of nutritional biochemistry.

One thing I wanted to mention before we dive into the episode is Karen has an amazing library of courses that she has created looking at different. Ailments, health concerns, diseases through this biochemist lens and what is so amazing. I was talking with her after this episode conversation saying, okay, so do you still work with people one-on-one?

Forever, indefinitely, and I was so blown away because that is really such a generous, generous offer. So be sure to check, we'll make sure that we link that in the show notes below a link to her courses. Like I said, she is someone I honestly wish I could have her on monthly as just like. A core guest consultant to get her insight into so many different facets of health and healing.

So with that, please enjoy this conversation with Karen Hurd. I. Well, Karen, it's so lovely to have you back on. We just were talking off air that it's been five years since you were last on the show. I'm sure there's a million updates you have. But thank you so much for coming back on and welcome back.

And I really wanted to get that perspective on detox because I think it's something that we see this word thrown around all the time. You know, do a spring detox, do a summer detox, do a week detox. And I think we all need a better understanding of, in terms of the physiological body, what does detox actually mean?

It's something that the cell will might combine and do a biological chemical reaction with something that you've taken in. But even if it does, all of that is filtered out through the bloodstream. It's not, it's not changing that cell itself. And so we have made, we've made this into a big deal of nothing because we have three major detoxification systems in the body.

They work for it 24 7. If they stop, you die. It's that simple. And so, I mean, we, we, you know, you mentioned mm-hmm. Weekly or monthly or quarterly detoxes, that's not necessary. You will be detoxing every day. And if you're taking in things that you shouldn't be, we need to be eating a certain diet so that you can.

For instance, if your kidneys fail to. To clear your bloodstream of all the garbage that's in the bloodstream, whether it's dumped there by a cell chemical reaction as a refuge product, which we do that all the time. Hmm. It's still the same system that cleans it out. It doesn't matter whether you ate the, the damaging.

Chemical well or substance. We'll use the word substance. Whether you ate the damaging substance, whether you breathed the damaging substance in whether it came through your skin, whether it was produced by your own metabolic processes. As cells go through cellular reactions, all of that is still cleared out in the same process either by your liver or your kidneys.

That's why we live as many years as we do. And so there's no need to say, oh, I have to detox my liver or detox my kidneys. Just quit eating garbage. That means that they have more to clear. And then eat the things that help them clear in the kidneys it's water. And with the liver it's soluble fiber, and that's, it's that basic and that simple.

But I do wanna take a second here to ask, because I know immediately the, the questions coming up in the audience's mind are. So what's all this talk then about toxic burden and toxic buildup and, um, you know, for example, I now I work with a lot of cancer patients on the emotional side, and they're coming in with heavy metal toxicity and mold toxicity and some of these things that it seems like they're really needing support in clearing.

And so I'd love your 2 cents on that, of these, these words that get thrown around of toxic buildup and what, what can be happening there. We have to understand that the body is conservative, so it's going to recycle anything useful that it can, and in that recycling process I. It could be recycling some toxins that you were exposed to yesterday, the day before.

People who tell you that it's happening at the cellular level, they're not biochemists. They do not understand. They're trying to market you a product and get you to spend money. But what happens is. Your liver is filled in your blood about a gallon a minute, and, and so in just a few minutes, all of your blood has gone through the liver.

The liver is a filter. It filters out anything that is not good for you. All the waste products that are fat soluble, the liver filters, by the way, all the waste products that are water soluble, the kidney is filtering. It's also filtering 24 7. So let's, we're gonna go back to the liver. So the liver clears all this trash out.

You can't put fat soluble toxins into a water carrier, so the kidneys are not gonna be involved in this process with the fat soluble toxins. So the fat soluble toxins are deposited into that bile. They're molecules, and actually we give them a name. They're called mycells, but they're molecules, and then that travels down biliary ducts.

Because bile not only is the trash truck for the liver, but it is also the digestive fluid that breaks the fats down into little pieces so they can cross the intestinal barrier and go into your bloodstream and be made into wonderful molecules that help us. All of this trash now is in the bile. It goes down, it all lands, whether it comes via the gallbladder or directly from the liver, that biliary duct, it all lands in your Dum, which is just underneath your sternum.

Then it goes into the ileum, which is the third part. And down is the lower right quadrant of your abdomen. That is where the terminal part of the ileum, the third part of the small colon is attached to the large colon, and it's actually divided there by a little valve called the ileocecal valve. It opens and closes and so it will be closed because they, we want to have this bile and all the foods that are being digested with a bile to be able to have a chance.

For the body to be conservative so that we can bring in any of those things that are in the bile that maybe be useful. Maybe we need some of those fats back into the bloodstream. And in that terminal part of the ileum, we will absorb 95% of our bile fluids. So the question then becomes if we absorb 95% of our bio fluids from the terminal, part of the ileum, because of the conservative nature of our bodies to recycle.

The bio molecule is broken down into its little fatty particles. The toxin is released as it's. As it was put into the bile, it's released back into your bloodstream to cause more havoc. And then what will happen within four minutes, the liver will filter it out again with any new trash that it has a filter, put it in the bile and it goes to the gastrointestinal tract.

What if we could get 25%, what about 50%, 75%, or even approach a hundred percent clearing of the bile, then that means we're throwing away all that garbage. Wow. And so we have to find a substance. Mm-hmm. And it needs to be something that occurs in our normal diet. Because we were created to eat food, not take pills and do flushes and whatever.

This should be naturally happening, and it used to naturally happen all the time because we used to eat this food all the time, but we gave it up in the early 19 hundreds and we don't eat it very often. So we have to find a food that does two things. One, it has to be able to have the capacity to bind with the biomolecule and the biomolecules carrying this garbage.

It's the. Soluble fiber that has the capacity, one to bind the bile, and two, it will actually never be absorbed because no fiber soluble or insoluble, but soluble fiber cannot cross the intestinal barrier. So when we eat soluble fiber, it will, and we eat it, we swallow it, it goes down into the duam, the bile is released into the duam.

And the soluble fiber says, wait a minute, we got married back there in the duad one, and we're not ever gonna get divorced. So I can't cross the intestinal barrier. I'm going into large colon where I will be excreted in a bowel movement and you're coming with me. So that soluble fiber drags across the ileal sequel valve.

Once you're in a large hole and there is no absorption of anything that's happening except water, it will travel through the large colon and then in, in a certain number of a certain number of hours, you will have a bowel movement and you will put all of that garbage into. The toilet in the form of a bowel movement, and we have gotten rid of that.

Bad fats, you know, all that. LDL, cholesterol, low density, lipid proteins that are so bad for us it cause heart disease. Mm-hmm. Atherosclerosis. That's what bile is made out of, and it's made out of triglycerides. Triglycerides are actually a component that is that, that, that are fat cells and so it's a type of fat and so the liver will use what you have in your body and then what if you used of every bit of, of the raw ingredients?

Then your liver will just make the raw ingredient. It can make a triglyceride in the snap, so. So that's the way we, we have to get rid of this waste. So, so now the question becomes is where do we find soluble fiber? Because to do just a normal life not being sick, you don't have health problems, you don't have cancer, you don't have PMS, you don't have, um, arthritis, you don't have gastrointestinal dis difficulties.

An insoluble fiber will not work. It will not make this, this chemical bonding. It's actually a net that captures the myself. But what happens? Is that we then have to figure it out if we need 15 grams of soluble fiber a day, and one cup of fruits or vegetables had one half of one gram of soluble fiber.

So if we had, and we don't eat oats generally, we don't as granola, you can eat oats raw, but generally we eat the oats cook. So if we ate one cup. Of cooked oatmeal. How many grams of soluble fiber are we going to get for one cup of cooked oatmeal? Two grams. Two grams? Hmm. Okay, let's do the math on, we need 15 a day.

We're getting two grams and a cup is of cooked oatmeal. So how many cups of cooked oatmeal would you have to have a day? Seven and a half. Hmm. Well, that's doable. A person probably could eat seven and a half cups of cooked oatmeal a day, but I think after a few days you'll be ready to vomit cooked oatmeal because you've had just too much of it.

Those beans have 10 grams and one cup of cooked beans. So let's do the math on that. If we need 15 grams a day, five at breakfast, five at lunch, five at dinner at 10 grams and a cup, we only need a cup and a half. Well, that means just a half a cup at breakfast, a half a cup at lunch, and a half a cup at dinner.

If it stayed in the bloodstream, you would be dead in 24 hours. It's being cleared. But you're constantly recycling and the nest, it's recycling through the bloodstream. It causes problems. You have PMS, now you have cancer, now you have gastrointestinal Crohn's disease, ulcerative colitis, gallstones. I mean, the list goes on and on and on.

And so when we are already behind the power curve, because we haven't been eating beans three times a day for all of our lives. We might have to eat them six times a day. Six separate times a day. Eating a bigger serving is not going to help because you, there's this space of time because you were recycling.

We need to be clear on this. It's not just glyco phosphates from the, the. The, the chemicals that we're using on our crops, it is not just the, the, the, uh, forever chemicals and the microplastics and just name it. All those are being cleared by the liver easily, very easily. But it's also your own hormonal waste because you're making hormones to do all the chemical reactions that happen in your body every day.

The list goes on and on. So we wanna get rid of our own normal metabolic waste besides the stuff that we may breathe, breathe in, or eat in. So, but there's nothing that we're really, nothing that is on the market that we are eating that we cannot get rid of out of our bodies if we just would be willing to eat, are soluble fiber three times a day and possibly more.

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It's blowing my mind because it just gives such a more nuanced perspective, because I do think whether it's, you know, intentional or not direct or indirect, there's this, there's this idea even in holistic medicine that. The toxic burden is just too much. We, we need to get in there and filter your blood to get things out of your blood.

Otherwise, it is gonna keep filtering and getting cleared and filtering and getting back in and refiling, and that's gonna keep us alive, but might start to contribute to some different issues. So it's really not a filtering problem, it's an excretion problem. Well, summarized Leigh Ann, that's exactly what it is.

That's exactly what it is. And I, we have some very well-intentioned people in the holistic field. They're all well-intentioned. No one's trying. I mean, maybe there's a few charlatans out there are trying to rip you off and sell you products so they can make money. I mean, we always have some of those type of people running around.

We also have water soluble waste, but if you're drinking a half a gallon of water a day, because water is all we. All we need to do to flush it out, just drink water and we should be drinking pure water. Pure water is either reverse or distilled, not ionized water reverse is, or ionized water is alchemized water that actually changes the pH.

Don't change the pH of water. It is already a wonderful seven neutral. And so when you start to change the pH, you interfere with what chemical reaction can happen, and you actually create hyper chlorate. It's a, it's a bad situation. Just drink, just filtered water filter. There's two filter filtration processes that are excellent.

Oh my gosh. I just, I'm, I'm just smiling and laughing because it, it really goes back to that premise that our bodies are so intelligent. I think, I think what's worth noting is. Maybe the difference of where we're at today is, I think you said two really profound things earlier on. One is we used to eat legumes so much more than we do, so we were getting this soluble fiber on a daily basis so that things were getting, you know, more than, more than that 5% of the bile was getting excreted.

So it's creating this, you know, this. The spiral where that 95% that's getting reabsorbed. There's a lot in there. And so it's even more important now that we're getting that soluble fiber. But I feel like if I could just condense this down to one thing, if someone listening is like, what can I do every day to support detoxification?

It's eat 15 grams of soluble fiber. Yes ma'am. That's it. Well summarized. I love that so much. So what I do wanna ask then is. You know, it's funny because you know the bean protocol that is, that is what you have spoken on so much. That is what you created years ago, and I wasn't even, it's funny I wasn't even coming into this conversation thinking we're gonna talk about the bean protocol, but now we're here 'cause it's the foundation of so much.

And I also know we're gonna acknowledge everyone's different, everyone's bio individual, we can't just give blanket health statements. But what, what is that shift if they're in a DI deteriorated health state. Okay, and And in those two particular, or do you Two of them are alike. The A LS, that is Lou Gehrig's disease.

The myeline and sheath that is made out of fats. It's not made out of fibers. And if you don't have enough of the right fats and you're not gonna be able to repair any holes in the myeline and sheath, which is what causes ms, is that actually you put too much electricity or over. Over neuro fibers that are not geared for that type of electricity.

We're bio, we're biochemical beams, but we're bioelectrical beams too. We're sending electrical signals all the time. Mm-hmm. For fibers. And if you put too much voltage. You will. It's like putting, like if you plug your lamp into the wall and you plugged it into a two 20 instead of one 10 circuit, you're putting too much electricity through a wire that's not gauged to carry that amount of voltage and you'll actually burn a hole in the insulation of wire.

If you just ate your beans three times a day, that would be fine, but now we have to just. M mend the hole and to mend the hole. That takes a very specific fat, and those are the essential fatty acids that, that have a capacity to, to, to be made into that myelin and sheath. We can't use saturated fats like coconut oil or butter because those fats do not go through the molecular changes that we need them to go through to be able to create these molecules.

On the My lineage teeth now in Lou Gehrig's disease, we can slow the progression. Both of these diseases, slow them to where they stall. Especially I've seen that happen in ms, particularly in progressive ms. Um, but, or, but when you get to a LS this is a, a different function, but the emphasis is still gonna be on the good fats versus the soluble fiber.

It dies and it's replaced by a daughter self when that happens. Any. Damage that was done to that DNA, that mutation is passed on to the daughter cell. And so with one mutation, we call that an initiated cell that doesn't cause cancer. If you get a second mutation on the DNA, that's called a promoted cell, and you are at the cusp of cancer.

If we damage one of those stop coones, then that cell will just continue to reproduce and reproduce and reproduce with all that DNA damage, including the stop codone damage, and then that reproduction. It's not creating a poisonous substance, it's just creating a mass. Just a growth. And what kills people in cancer is not that this growth is emitting poisons into the bloodstream.

And so what causes a mutation? To, to occur on the gene are what we call nuclear receptors. There are certain things in our environment that cross through the plasma membrane. The plasma membrane is the cellular wall. Every cell has a a wall that protects the internal contents of the cell, and there's all kinds of, we call them organelles pieces inside your cell.

And that DNA, if you damage it, if something gets through the plasma membrane, the cellular wall, and then travels through the cytoplasm, which is the internal fluids of the cell, and finds a nuclear envelope and crosses through the nuclear envelope, which is another barrier. Then it can attach to your DNA and it will start.

When it was originally discovered way back, many, many, many decades ago, they said, oh, this is a vitamin like vitamin B or vitamin C. It's a catalyst that caused reactions to happen. No vitamin D is actually a hormone and hormones have the capacity to diffuse through the plasma membrane. Diffusion means it can just cross through the wall.

It can just walk through a wall. Any other substance, whether it's calcium or it's potassium, sodium, whatever it is, it has, there has to go through a doorway. You have to knock on the door and and be admitted. Mm-hmm. Inside of the cell. Not so with nuclear receptors, they just walk through the wall, they diffuse, that's the word we use in science.

They go to the nuclear envelope and they're still so tiny. These are tiny, tiny, tiny little molecules, and then they diffuse through the nuclear envelope because you can only go through a a channel to get into the nuclear envelope. You gotta have permission. They bypass that, they just walk through the wall and then they attach onto the DNA randomly.

It's not targeted. It's not targeted. It's random, and wherever it attaches, a lot of these things attach on a part of the DNA that will never cause you a problem in your entire lifetime. But if they randomly attach to an important part, P 52, gene P 52 gene is found in a large number of our cancers that it has been mutated.

We have six different systems to do that, but we have to have our body have the time to do that. But sometimes when that P 52 gene has been mutated, it's blown, and then it's just growing and it's growing. It's growing, and so how do we prevent cancer? We eat our beans three times a day. If we already have cancers, you really only need to eat them.

We usually have people eat them six times a day because we're gonna try to get rid of some of this recycling waste that's coming through the liver. We get our water, but the, the biggest thing is quit exposing ourselves to these cancer causing. Substances. Don't wear perfume and fragrance. Don't use fragrance products in your home.

Well, that's a naturally produced hormone. Well, why were you making so much of it? It's not that you were, you were making more of it. When you're per exposed to perfumes and fragrances, that immediately increases your estrogen production, but. When you are purposely not detoxing, we're using that word, you know, this is what your segment is about, we're not letting the filter work.

And so they're very targeted. These, you know, the cancer therapies will chemotherapy and our immunotherapies for it, and they're very targeted. And so we're, we're missing the target because the target moved. When you have a moving target, it's sometimes hard to hit. Yeah. So the best thing to do in cancer is stop eating garbage.

And I mean, we can go through what garbage is. I mean, you know, all the things I've already mentioned, perfumes and fragrances as nuclear receptors, but we eat things that increase hormonal output. And then the, the hormonal output is the nuclear receptor. Yes, I would love to go more into the foods that contribute to that, the things to stop eating, but also, so just for clarity, 'cause I think I might've missed it for anyone in that place.

So it's, it's just, we're just trying to get you to have it more frequently. If you have cancer and you can have more, you can always have more because they're good food. Okay. I mean, if you're hungry, certainly you can have more, but it's the frequency that is most important. My relationship with coffee has changed so much over the years.

I went from waking up first thing in the morning, drinking multiple cups of coffee on an empty stomach, to now approaching it with so much more intentionality, especially when I started realizing just how much it was affecting my nervous system, which is why I'm. So careful and intentional about when, how, and what kind of coffee I consume.

What I also love though, is they have a number of different coffees available that are either ground or whole bean. I'm a bit of a snob, so I love to buy the whole bean coffees, but it's so neat because they have. Their focus coffee blend that has extra [00:44:00] adaptogens to help support brain health. They have their gut health coffee blend that I'm really excited to start using because it has probiotics, prebiotics, Turkey tail, and chaga mushrooms that have been added to it.

They have their calm decaf coffee blend that has really calming adaptogens like Reishi and Chaga, and a number of other different blends. That can really support you in the best way possible. But these coffees are so intentionally created to provide clean, sustained energy without any crashes, without giving you the jitters, which is something I really started experiencing maybe a year or so ago, and which is why I've become so, so intentional about the kind of coffee I drink and when I drink it.

So maybe we can talk about that, but that's kind of an aside question. And then Yes, what should we be avoiding? Okay. Soy is classified technically as a legume, but it is not a legume that has soluble fiber. It has oil in it. Think about anything that we use that you can get oil out of. You cannot count that as a bean or as a legum.

So we use soy oil all the time. If you press a soybean, you'll get a lot of oil out that out of it. If you press a pinto bean, you'll get zero oil. There's no fat in beans in the legumes that we need with the soluble fiber. Soybeans do carry a little bit of soluble fiber, but not like a pinto bean, black bean or all these other beans.

So. That's the first thing on soy. The second thing on soy is it does come with a high amount of phytoestrogens. Phyto is spelled P-H-Y-T-O. It is the Latin for, um, plant. These are plant estrogens, and so for a long time, and there is still a, there is still a debate in the field. This debate is not finished yet.

Cancer is a mutation. The DNA, this is just increasing the growth of these cells that in the female tissue. I have done quite a bit of research on this, and I am not particularly in that camp that the phytoestrogens are protective. I'm concerned that they are. Acting as a stimulant to cause that cell to go through some type of growth.

And so my advice is to avoid soy. So the soy oils are okay, it's the soy proteins, it's, or the problems. So, and you, it's, so the oils don't have the phytoestrogens, it's what's carrying the phytoestrogens. So that is still a scientific debate right now in the field. So you'll have people on both, both sides of this issue.

Natural sugars, artificial sugars, artificial sweeteners, all of those can contrib contribute to an increased hormonal output. And when you increase your hormonal level, and we're not clearing them out fast enough, you will be. You're, you're dancing with DNA damage because all of them are teeny tiny little molecules and they diffuse through the plasma membrane, through the nuclear envelope, and they can attach to the DNA and cause a mutation.

And so we wanna avoid those things. And then people get into, well, what about if we do all these natural sweeteners like. Stevia or Truvia or we do, um, you know, maltose or gala lactose or, you know, they name all kinds of different sweeteners, you know, monks, fruit. But the problem is all of those are direct stimulant to produce a hormone, and we're trying to avoid that.

But I mean, that's not going to create the hormonal rush as if you had the brown sugar on it or you had a candy bar, you had, you know, a pastry. What is the max amount of sugar? Grams of sugar? We wanna, we wanna have in the back of our mind, I think it's so clear that the FDA recommendations here are just so we need to disregard those completely.

Yes. I, I, I have not been a advocate of the food pyramid in all of those advice ever since I've been a biochemist. It just doesn't fit. So it's. It's five grams of sugar or less per serving. And a serving is generally a half a cup is, you know, it depends on where you live because then we can get into grams, but it's generally a half a cup.

How do you know what a serving size is that's set the serving size? I have no problems with the FDA setting, the serving sizes, but you look on the label, it will say a serving size is. They tell you how many crackers or how many, you know, pieces or how, how big of a serving a half a cup or a three quarters of a cup, they will tell you what the serving size is.

It is about the dosage. Each time you're having something that has sugar in it, you can have as much of that as you want. There's not a. Top number. Now, if you're trying to lose weight, you shouldn't just stuff yourself silly, you know? But no, there is no, there's no maximum. And actually we do stop eating after a time because we're full.

Okay? And we can't eat anymore. Yes. Okay. So what I'm hearing is it's more like, you know, in the morning for example, I put, I put honey in my coffee and I wanna ask you about the caffeine too. 'cause that's gonna be a big one. But I put a little honey in my coffee. That's a serving, so maybe I have my five grams of sugar in my honey.

So then it's okay. I, that's enough sugar for this sitting. Maybe later this afternoon I'll have some tea with some more honey in it. That's another five grams. Because the, what I'm, I feel like what I'm hearing is there's something that happens when we have more than five grams of sugar in one sitting.

That's the issue. And you know you're using, I see. Okay. Honey, honey is an example. You need to know honey is more than five grams of sugar per serving. Honey is not, is is a sweet, it's intensely sweet. So sorry to to break that news. Yeah, it is very sweet. I will give you that. Yes. What, what, is there anything, I'm trying to think.

So your honey and your tea or your coffee, it's sweeter than a carrot. And you know that. And so, you know, it's too sweet. So you just say, I'll just, I'll learn not to do that. Yeah. But what happens if you do more than that? You are going to create a hormonal response. You are going to create more hormones than you should create, and your liver has to clear those out and get rid of them.

And if you get too much of them circulating in the bloodstream, you're gonna have a large crossing into the nuclear envelope. You will have DNA damage. And at some point down the line, you're looking at cancer. It's just like, why are we even playing with this? Why do we just, I hope that I won't get it.

Okay, sounds good. Leigh Ann. Caffeine is a direct stimulant to the adrenal glands. It whips the adrenal glands. It's like taking a a bull whip to the glands and saying, give me adrenaline and give me adrenaline. Now, a bunch of it. That's why people do caffeine because they gotta get going in the morning 'cause they're tired or they have to think more clearly.

When you produce more adrenaline, understand it's a neurotransmitter, it's gonna make you think faster and quicker, and people love that feeling. It makes you feel stronger, more energetic. You can go do more exercise or do whatever you wanna do. You have energy. That is all adrenaline working for you, but you're gonna pay for forcing that gland to continually give you and give you, and give you, and give you more and more and more.

You need a whole pot. Now. The whole pot doesn't work for you anymore. Yes, caffeine is a drug. It is technically a drug, and so you become addicted to it, so you need more and more of it to get the same response that you used to have. In the meantime, you are just. De demolishing your adrenal glands until they will not work.

And then there's a day. Doesn't matter how much caffeine you do, you're always depressed. You're always tired. You just feel like the world's not worth living anymore. Why do I even get up in the morning? I. And it doesn't matter how much caffeine you do. Well that's because you have completely exhausted the gland by continuing to whip it and saying, work harder, work harder, work harder, work harder.

It is absolutely related. I. Because you increase the hormone. I just spoke to you about adrenaline, but what you don't understand is also increased your estrogen. It also increased your thyroxine. It increases every hormone because we don't make hormone in little, in in silos when we increase the endocrine production.

That's important. That's random. And so cancer is the, yeah. The killer in our country today, heart disease, that's the number one. And number two is cancer. And it's like we are playing with fire. Stop it. Yeah. And so you're just playing Russian roulette. Exactly. Russian. Let Exactly. Oh my gosh, Karen, this was unbelievable.

You are amazing. I such a wealth of knowledge and passion. I could talk to you for hours and hours and hours. I'm so grateful for your time. Thank you. You are most welcome.