Welcome back to another episode of The Human Odyssey™: A Human-Centered Podcast! 

On this episode of The Human Odyssey™ join Dr. Jennifer Fogarty, Director of Applied Health and Performance, Rashod Moten, Human Factors Specialist, and Jaelyn Kelly, Applied Health Specialist, as they discuss why it’s important to consider Human Factors in your decision-making process.

This episode of The Human Odyssey™ was recorded on August 7th, 2024.

Welcome to The Human Odyssey, the podcast

about Human-Centered Design.

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The way humans learn, behave, and perform

is a science, and having a better

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understanding of this can help improve

your business, your work, and your life.

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This program is presented

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by Sophic Synergistics,

the experts in Human-Centered Design.

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So let's get started on today's

Human Odyssey.

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Hello and welcome to The Human Odyssey

Podcast.

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I'm your host, Rashod Moten, and I'm

joined here today with my guest, Dr.

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Jennifer Fogarty,

as well as my colleague and friend,

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Jaelyn Kelly.

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At least

I like to think we’re friends, but,

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today's topic will be

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human decision making and the impact

that human factors has in decision making.

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And, you know, as

I was thinking about today's topic

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I mentioned before, you know, we were

going to go through the background,

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or to speak about the background work

that goes on with cognition and how humans

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get to the decision making process

and work through that process.

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But, we had something

come across our team yesterday,

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and it made me rethink

the entire process and discussion.

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And what I actually want to speak

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about today is how human factors

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impacts specifically

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design, decisions within design, as well

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as, prototyping

just the entire iterative process

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when it comes to designing

and engineering.

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And again,

instead of speaking specifically about,

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you know, the cognitive processes

what I want to start with is just

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you know, in our everyday lives,

you know, we work with, many teams.

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We see the iterative design

process daily.

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How would you guys,

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I guess, describe

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human factors within that process?

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And I'll start with you, if that's okay.

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Sure.

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So a little bit about my background,

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not a formally trained human factors

person.

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Right?

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So I'm formally trained,

if I were to use formal in that sense,

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in, you know, human physiology, right?

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And in human function, watching behaviors,

but always I’m

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trying to understand

kind of the biological premise for it.

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and it's a lot about stimulus, right?

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When we think about

how we react to our world,

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whether it be through a vision

or hearing, or sense of touch,

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but also through pressure and oxygen,

you know,

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and then what do you, what is your body

trying to accomplish in space and time?

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But what I did learn

and through working with human factors

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people, human systems

integration, Human-Centered Design,

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like the very thoughtful decomposition

of the environment you're expecting

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someone to be in to accomplish a goal

like do a task, do work.

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And that applies, again,

to our everyday lives.

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Like, but we take a lot for granted.

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I think, you know, in terms of how,

almost reflexive things have become

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because we've been accustomed

to the environment, we're in

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and how that environment functions

with us.

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I mean common things like a doorknob,

you know,

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like you reach for it, you turn it.

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It's not a real, it's

not a thought process,

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for instance, like at the spinal reflex

level, like there's not a lot of,

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white matter going on

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in terms of decision making anymore.

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But I think, what helped sensitize me

to understanding

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that we have an opportunity to do better,

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not just assume what we have,

going back to your point of, like,

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iterative design and the iteration

to be on the order of minutes,

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hours, days, weeks,

months, years or centuries.

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We work on a scale

with a lot of our customers

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that are probably on the days and weeks

level of iteration as you get

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new information and into something,

but still common everyday things.

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And going back to when I became more aware

of what I took for granted,

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was actually having a child

and watching them for the first time,

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and how they explore their world

and learn from that exploration process.

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But because,

like the doorknob pre-dated them,

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like that

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thing was there and they learned it,

they learned to function with it.

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And or it was guided by us

and other people in our lives.

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But there's other things.

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What has always bothered me

about the concept

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of even simple things,

like a door that we take for granted,

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when you go to a place of business

and where the handle is

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and how the handle is positioned actually

infers the way you interact with it,

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like so, a bar across the door, say

almost at center level is a,

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is instinctually

something you grab and push

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and that's fine if the door is designed

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with respect to your position to be pushed

like either going into a business

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or coming out, it's

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usually coming out of some, a room

or something into an open space.

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But oftentimes,

like someone put the bar on the door

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horizontally and it's a pull.

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So the signaling.

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So I think that is one where like

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there's decision making going on.

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But in the, in this case,

because the way we open doors

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is kind of given to you

when you arrive in the world

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and then experience your world

from the earliest moments of being a human

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that later when you run into,

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and literally

they haven't run into the door, but

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when you now experience someone setting up

this interface to be counterintuitive.

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And that, again, is cognitive dissonance.

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Like you will you put your hands on

something and be like,

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I don't understand

why the door won’t open!

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And I have a PhD

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[Untranscribable due to laughter]

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to be standing at an entrance

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to a room or a building and be like,

I don't understand why this isn't working!

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And it's like, oh, because you were

supposed to do this other thing with it.

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And you're like, okay,

so if you wanted me do this other motion,

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you just had to put the bar vertical

or put a knob on it.

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You know, somehow

how do I actuate this experience.

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So while we can laugh about it,

you know, like in the realm of,

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an austere and extreme environment,

like spaceflight it is a big deal

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to set up an interaction with something,

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in terms of decision

making and, and what, what was either,

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like,

trained in you from a very early period

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of interacting with things versus

something you specifically trained for,

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for your occupation.

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So now we deal with things

like hatches and hatch opening.

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You know, opening cabinets and drawers,

but they have to be built differently

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because they need to stay closed. Right?

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You can't just

gravity is not there to help you.

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So we have to do things differently.

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But then you have to say

have I created a barrier to the thing

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you already know how to do that's

going to create a conflict?

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That cognitive dissonance, and you're

going to struggle with this simple task.

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And that struggle may lead to something

that's a little more serious.

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Right?

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Especially we always say

like under emergency circumstances

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is when you get into a situation

where not understanding how this thing

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you've taken for granted

all your life operates,

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you can't get it opened and

it's a problem, like buildings on fire.

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If the emergency egress

is not set up in a very intuitive

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fashion, you say intuitive meaning

we understood how you think

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about things from the get go,

it can be a very hazardous problem.

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And I've been in recently in a discussion

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about that situation

from a business perspective

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of someone wanting waivers and exceptions,

because it's convenient for them.

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They don't have the money

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and a variety of things

that make sometimes being compliant hard,

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but the other side of the discussion

is not being compliant.

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How does that change the risk of the

really bad thing happening?

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and is there good transparency

about awareness

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about that new,

that risk that you're now engaging in?

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because you tend to be hyper

focused on the thing you want,

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not the thing, you know, the unintended

consequences of what's going on.

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So I have totally had to rethink

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over the 20 years

I've been in business, like

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how to be more aware of

what is a sense and response situation

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and when we're using kind

of ingrained behaviors to operate,

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in our world versus

very specifically retraining

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that is done to operate more safely,

more efficiently and more accurately.

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And the difference between those,

that if you want something to be easy,

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low overhead,

you know, again, on almost a reflex level,

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you got to go with

what is the common trained behavior.

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If you're trying to do something

or you have to do something

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because of the,

you know, the environment of use

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or the task

that you're trying to drive to,

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not only are you going to have to identify

that, but then you have to identify

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how you get there.

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Like sometimes it's a mitigation,

but really it's like

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maybe you have to own the fact

that procedures and training

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have to come into play

to make that a successful

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environment for the human to function.

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Yeah.

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And to your point,

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actually, as far as designing,

just to have it be almost intuitive.

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and going back to knobology,

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well, on doors,

funny enough, went to a meeting

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months passed,

and it's at a hospital, right?

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And one of the,

the room we’re meeting in, mind you, we’re

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in the middle of a hospital, room

we’re meeting in,

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we're standing in front of the conference

room we're going to be walking into.

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And there's a rail on the door,

on both sides of the door.

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I watched three people

try to push and pull

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this door, look around to make sure

everyone saw this.

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Do it again.

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Three people did the same thing,

and then finally someone who worked

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at the building, they came and said, oh,

these are sliding doors.

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So these doors slid.

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These are complete full pane glass doors.

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And like the entire room

front of the room, they're all glass.

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And there was no indication

that this was a sliding door at all.

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Every single person thought it was push

or pull, and in my mind

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I'm thinking, this is a hospital

you need to build in accessibility.

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[Laughter]

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That environment, you know,

as a specific example, like.

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Yeah.

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It is like you just sit there

and that's been,

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you know, our whole area that we need to

continue to populate was like when

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design goes bad, design goes badly.

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Like, you know, oftentimes it's like,

well, from a construction standpoint

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and cost standpoint, those were the doors

that were left over or easy.

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[Untranscribable due to laughter.]

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You step back, those are good.

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Where are they

the right choice? Probably not.

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But yeah helping people like that

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and again it's just one step away.

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Like if there's an emergency in the room,

if someone,

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like this was under calm circumstances,

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these people were frustrated

trying to figure out

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how to operate a door

to get in or out of a room,

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and you're like,

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can you only imagine under non-calm

circumstances what that's gonna look like?

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So trivially, I think, you know,

if you were like, oh, I don't care

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what doors

you put in, but you’re like but you do.

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You know, and you really have to.

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And that's kind of to me, human factors is

the very is the field or discipline

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that is going to drive a very deliberate

evaluation of an environment

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to identify where choices have been made

that either facilitate your goals

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or do not facilitate those goals

and then the next level

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of, well, what do we do about that?

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And you know, people

get a lot of, up in arms like,

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you know, almost

like an audit function or something.

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But in the iterative design world,

it is really proactive in terms

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of trying to transparently say, like,

you can make any choice you'd like,

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but you should certainly understand

the ramifications of those choices.

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To me, you know, this concept of willful

ignorance like, well,

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I didn't know that would happen.

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I'm like, well, it was knowable.

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There's many times where it was,

if you had done the hard work and,

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you know, had, a diverse

group of people in the room to make,

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you know, the observations from their

perspective, which to your point, people

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with varying abilities or disabilities,

to understand the world from their view of

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in a wheelchair, on crutches,

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with a cane,

you know, whatever it might be,

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the permutations of it that, like

that is not how I experience the world.

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So you should know.

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And in spaceflight now,

you know, we've become accustomed to,

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you know, the prototype of the person

we think has gone and should go -ish. But

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opening the door to people of different

abilities and different capabilities,

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that are going to be experiencing this.

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And now we need to bring them

and they are now,

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you know, the user groups

that have to start to experience

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environments or mock environments and say,

well, how do you experience this world?

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It’s used to work

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for a trained government astronaut

who was doing this for a career,

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probably had ten years, you know,

selecting criteria was pretty rigorous.

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And then ten years of training

or and millions of dollars

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invested in them

to become a trained asset.

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Yeah.

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And, the other situation is

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that is not the case

for the commercial spaceflight endeavor.

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So get them in, help them,

you know, get the feedback.

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Because I don't even think

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for some of us

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who've done this professionally

for a long time, I'm willing to admit,

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I can't anticipate what they're

always going to struggle with or not.

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Yeah.

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So we just have to start

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really helping them experience where it is

and get the data on it.

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And early as early as possible.

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Early and often.

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Jaelyn same question to you.

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So Jenn hit all my points wonderfully.

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That's fair.

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But just as I think

what really caught my eye, ear,

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whatever sense that happened to go through

while you we're talking

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is like I really live in like the

what do we do about that?

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That's been my last couple of months,

especially iterating.

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much like Jenn, I'm

trained in human physiology,

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but I do have a background in physics,

so my

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comedy, I guess, my comedic experience

has been, what do we do about that?

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About the human, do you want the physics?

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Or do you want the physiology?

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Because they're both going

to touch at some point.

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And that's where you get your really good,

really reflexive solution

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that is beneficial to both parties.

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However, you know, the comedy ensues

when the human physics

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and the design physics don't line up

but that's, again, she hit all points.

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It was great. I was enraptured.

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We have talked before.

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We have talked before.

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And given a lot of our common training.

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But I think, it has been helpful,

especially in our company and even when,

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Cynthia, the founder and CEO,

and I have worked together like,

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it was really beneficial

to have those capabilities on board to me,

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at least the observation

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so we had a chance at designing the test

to go pursue, why did that matter?

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And to your point, like,

we're trying to get some solutions.

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And in a design iteration

you've got an opportunity to be proactive,

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make changes, change the course,

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you know, to ultimately get to the goal

we're all trying to achieve.

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Like, what are you trying to achieve here?

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but also from the business case,

what is it going to cost to do that?

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How much money and time?

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But the projection also is,

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if you choose not to do it, here’s

what you're not enabling.

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That's the side that I think

sometimes gets under discussed.

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That you may have actually eliminated

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a group of people or the ability

to do this without months of training.

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You know, there are other factors

that could be documented that say,

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you can choose this solution, but again,

here are the consequences of that.

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So you just have to be mindful that later

there's going to be a different cost.

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Which the cost may include

eliminating certain people

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who may not be able to engage

because of it.

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So it's not trivial,

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and it is a worthwhile investment.

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But yeah, it's probably struggled

on the business case side.

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I mean and not just human factors

alone in the whole world of, you know,

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occupational health, like the concept

of engineering things out.

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People want to kick

that can down the road, potentially.

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They're like,

we don't have time to fix that now.

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I'm like, well,

okay, let's write that down.

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So

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[Laughter]

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We're going to end up revisiting this.

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And it would be good because as,

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as part of a pool of data,

not just a case study, this is a very,

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repetitively experienced issue.

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Right? Redesign.

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Have to ask, you know, just,

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you know, just being experienced,

especially,

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just across industries

and having that same conversation.

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You know,

whenever you do encounter those situations

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because this is a part of Sophic’s

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model as well, as far as ensuring

that we're integrating human factors,

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not only in decision

making at the lower level.

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So the engineering, the design levels,

but also programmatic decision

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making process, do you find that it's

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it is worthwhile

to kind of way to take a step back,

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take note of,

that any pushback you're receiving,

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you know, whenever

we are providing any input or feedback

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or do you find that it's more important,

especially for you as a human factors

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professional to kind of push for, okay,

we need to consider this now,

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or does it just depend on the situation?

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Yeah, I, that is kind of the art of

working with people

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and the art of communication and knowing,

like reading the room.

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A lot of times it's like,

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there's all kinds of elements of the

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like the interpersonal skills

at play here,

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which sometimes in the working meeting,

it may indeed

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be the very appropriate place

to drive the conversation to say,

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you know, let's seriously discuss

redesigning this, even though I understand

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you're always just,

you know, under duress for time and money

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and things of that nature

because you got to do the thought exercise

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if we don't do it

and then have a rough approximation of

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what do you think it'll cost later

if we choose not to do this now?

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In other cases the room,

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the environment you're working

in, the group you're working with

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is not secure enough in their own

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capabilities to really deal with-

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I was just about to say.

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like conflict.

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Sometimes it helps to come in

and fill the gap.

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Yeah.

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So I think that that is when again,

reading the room, you say maybe

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this is something I have to take offline

with a person or two

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where it doesn't look like

you're challenging them, you know,

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and their intelligence or their skill

in whatever they do, or their authority.

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You're not

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trying to just be

difficult for the sake of being difficult.

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Right?

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You already have, you know,

and it is cautioned because some folks

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and it's not just

where you are in your career.

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I've seen a couple different reasons

for doing it,

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but they just have to say stuff like,

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like first of all, like first

take a step back

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and what am I,

if I'm going to say this, is it of value?

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Like is it really contributing

to the conversation and also our jobs,

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and I think that's where it also takes

some guts because you're going to put

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something on the table

that looks like a challenge or obstacle

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that folks could recoil from.

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Because you're like,

well now I know, I might get treated like

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the bad guy.

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The lone- That's a real feeling.

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The lone wolf out there.

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And you’ve got to have the guts

to put it on the table.

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But it's wrong

not to have it on the table.

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So I think it is the art of it.

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Like it may not be at any one time

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the place to do it, but that's

where you're like cataloging it.

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And then you take it offline

where you think the person would be more

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receptive to the conversation,

then it can go back into the bigger group.

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So I worked it a couple of different ways

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because you are dealing with a lot of type

A, very driven people.

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They're all there to make the thing

go. And,

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not always in the heat of the moment

are they going to appreciate

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that you're actually

assisting them with that,

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but when you're adding more work,

or at least the perception of it,

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but for the greater good like otherwise

you're going to end up redoing this later

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where the cost will be much higher. Right?

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The cost could be, you know,

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just never even touch a monetary,

which is like awesome.

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Like, I mean, we don't always try

to exaggerate out that far, you know, for

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just for argument's sake.

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But there are times

you can play a scenario out

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pretty quickly,

especially when you're dealing

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with spaceflight, in the vacuum of space,

like those things get serious quickly.

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We don't have a good backup.

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but I think,

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yeah, that is where, in this field

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that you really got to be, have the guts

to put your opinion out there.

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But the self-awareness to say one -

are these words, in my opinion,

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that's backed up by this point of data

valuable to do?

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And I can help guide

you toward a solution, not just like,

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drop the conflict on the table

and be like, good luck with it.

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I ask that because-

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No, sometimes

that's what it takes though.

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You got to like,

here's what we're running into and I think

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at least I don't know in your experience

but in my experience, it's that continued

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not necessarily bringing conflict,

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but framing almost,

it's not piecemealing? Breadcrumbing?

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Whatever word you want to use there, of

like we're going to get there,

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we're going to get there,

we're going to get there.

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Here's how I can

help. We're going to get there.

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It's one of those, like you said,

interpersonal skills, but also kind of

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helping people understand how you can

help.

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I think that's been the biggest,

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not hurdle, challenge, but kind of the,

a bigger piece of it, at least.

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Again,

I don't know if you've experienced it,

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but what I've been doing

these last couple months

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and then I became,

suddenly became important. But

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it was one of those experiences where it's

like, you got to get everybody on board.

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Actually, to your point, like

you already said, present the situation

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and just

you got to be real about it sometimes. But

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that again, that's probably

just my personality talking.

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No, no, no, it's

something I mean, I've experienced it

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with many teams,

you know, especially for human factors

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specifically, it can be implemented

in the human factors methodology.

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Right? You can implement it

in many different ways.

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But even a human factors

professionals,

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the field itself is very broad

and something

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I'm learning, or I have learned over

the last few years is that, you know,

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when I'm

approaching a team, they're seeing

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how they're going to integrate me

into a team in a very specific way.

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And me, personally, I go in thinking

this is the methodology

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that's going to best fit

what you're doing at this moment in time.

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Often, you know, as our goal

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is to make sure any hardware,

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product is going to be efficient

and safe for human use.

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Right?

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So I go in thinking, okay, identify risks.

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How can we best do that?

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What is going to be our analyses

and our approach to analyses?

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Right?

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How are we going to mitigate human errors?

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Things like that.

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So for me coming

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in, that's the first thing

I'm thinking about is, identify the risks.

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But then whenever I present

those potential risks and say, hey,

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this is something we should think about,

of course you get the pushback.

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And I think in past my troub-

my issue has always been, alright.

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Let's pause. Back up.

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Usually it's no, these are the risks.

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These are based on

the initial assessments.

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These are just

what we've identified so far.

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But you know, it's going to be dependant

on where you are in your design process.

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And from that perspective,

I often find myself

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thinking I have to influence that decision

right then and there.

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When in reality, to your point

Jenn, you know, you really,

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bringing it to the table is one thing,

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but then making sure that it is valuable

and it's, it is a real problem.

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You know, you're addressing

a true problem that

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you have identified or a potential issue

that you've identified.

454

I think that's always been difficult

for me in the early years.

455

That was something I had to work through

mentally and just, okay,

456

how do I approach this?

Do I say something now?

457

Maybe not.

458

Sure,

and I think there's different experiences

459

based on whether you're

well integrated into a team.

460

And it is being kind of,

you know, facilitative like a team

461

activity, versus coming in

like an outside auditor, and different,

462

you know, mid-level leadership

will treat groups differently.

463

I mean, it's just

464

based on their experience

or their preconceived notions of it so

465

that's why you got to really read the room

in terms of how can I be effective here?

466

The other part of like,

467

you know, where is that space

where you can kind of think out loud?

468

You know, because again, if you're,

you're in the team and a lot of stuff

469

is happening, you're part of the design

and iteration, real time.

470

You haven't like,

you know, just like they are working.

471

You're also working through like

this could really be a risk.

472

You know and to put it,

you know in the team conversation,

473

get it on the table.

474

But then as your thoughts mature

and you go do

475

your evaluation techniques,

get data, look at,

476

you know, prior art, as they say, like,

what's a good analogy to this?

477

Or you know, what's going on

in the different subsystems.

478

So you understand as well,

479

and you

480

know, having some ground rules around,

481

you know,

even when we talk about the job, like,

482

what do we expect the people to do?

483

And how broad of a range of,

like, diverse sets of people

484

from a capabilities,

cognitive, physical are we talking about?

485

Going back to my earlier point

about commercial space,

486

the idea is just to keep on opening up

those, that aperture.

487

Right? And that makes design challenging.

488

So you lean on industry to,

who deal with this

489

all the time, you know, like automotive,

490

you know, the size, shape

491

and cognitive function and,

492

situational awareness of people

getting in a car and driving is,

493

it's extreme variability.

494

It also seems like you run into, like,

really new natural con- not new,

495

unique natural consequences

of the combination of all of that.

496

For sure.

497

I mean, there's always like, wow, like

this is why looking at historical

498

data is important, but it's not 100%

predictive of the future, right?

499

We continue to be surprised

and befuddled by things.

500

Not, like it’s

again, like, I don't know it I don't know.

501

Like that is a combination of things.

502

You're playing between biology and physics

503

and engineering like wow,

a lot of things can happen.

504

But, you know, the important part

is to continue to be in a learning mode,

505

accept that you have to talk about

uncertainty

506

to be realistic, which again, when you're

coming to the table, that's authentic.

507

Right?

508

You come in and when you talk about

risk, it's not a single number.

509

Right? And it has a lot of dependencies.

510

So again you come to the table.

511

I was more successful when I would come

to the table with a risk.

512

Or it starts out as an issue.

513

Like it is something

514

you want to talk about before

you can even transform it

515

into like a formal

and articulate it as risk.

516

But then you're coming with solutions.

517

And one of the solutions is “accept”.

518

What I think

519

we've learned a lot from

and I put a priority on and that comes,

520

you know, part of the integrity

that that we have as a company

521

is the transparency of that conversation.

522

You can choose to accept it.

523

But you have to document

it and has to be at some level,

524

you know, moved up the chain

so they understood what risks were

525

accepted as the design process occurred

and how much,

526

you know, horizontally

527

has happened with your peer systems

so that they knew

528

what the decisions were because

everybody's got a series of choices.

529

So that goes back to you know,

530

the hierarchical need for systems

engineering and integration.

531

You know, get SE&I together because now

we all have to come to the table,

532

let's talk about where we had latitude

to choose why we chose what we did?

533

What risk posture did we end up in?

534

And then how did, when you have

to interact with these other subsystems,

535

which includes the human.

536

What were their choices?

537

And you know what,

where did they land in their risk posture?

538

And how well did

those puzzle pieces work together?

539

Where do things do things

have to be reworked and reprioritized?

540

And then up a level is people,

you know, people in positions of authority

541

who can reallocate resources,

such as money and time and priorities

542

to help manage that, that challenge.

543

So human factors at least is, at least,

544

it is putting quantifiable,

objective information on the table.

545

You know, we layer in, we embed applied

health and performance in, we really

546

prefer like the overarching term

being Human-Centered Design.

547

The government industry world

is going to be human system integration.

548

And so human factors

as you said, is methodologies, it’s

549

a toolset to come in

and be objective and quantifiable.

550

So applied health and performance also

uses tools to be on the human side of what

551

they bring to the table also has tools

to be objective and quantifiable.

552

So we don't have to talk about

what we think or what we feel.

553

We can talk about what we measured

and we may have to go outside

554

of course, our natural experience base

or what we can measure in any one test

555

because it's just not large enough. Right?

556

So we use, you know, access to databases

that, you know, again

557

we talk about applicable but

558

give us something

but there's some uncertainty.

559

Why someone wants to pay

for new data to be generated.

560

Which is where you get

into these business case conversations.

561

But I think it creates a paradigm

where very legitimately

562

you come to the table with value added,

563

and a path forward of solution sets

or at least

564

the transparency of documenting

what you choose, chose to acce-

565

why you chose where you are

and what you chose to accept.

566

And you still have corporate memory of,

what are my other choices

567

if I have to go and manage conflict

with another system?

568

Or integration with another system?

569

So I think it's brought a lot,

clearly a lot to the table

570

to result in better design

and opportunities to even iterate later.

571

Given you may have had to accept something

because of whatever

572

was your goalpost of the day,

whether it be a design

573

review or a deliverable, have,

you know, a functional unit to work.

574

You know?

575

You had a constraint, time, money.

576

This technically was the best

we could achieve to the goals

577

of whatever it was you had determined

by the kind of contractual relationship.

578

But if you get another shot at it,

if there's a round two,

579

if there's a version two and three

and four and five, you have a place

580

to learn from and a place, again,

581

I talk a lot about design reference

missions and concept of operations being

582

so important contextually to understand

why you're doing what you're doing.

583

How close can you get to the goalpost?

584

And if given different resources,

can you get there?

585

and again, having anything that amounts

586

to quantifiable and objective

data is way more helpful than equals.

587

And it's never to disrespect

someone's experience base.

588

There's a lot of that, especially

in our industry where, you know, it's

589

not, it's not like big

data, it's deep data.

590

Right? Because it's in a small field.

591

So experience based is

592

amazing, but it's not evidence based.

593

I don't think people realize

how also big and deep,

594

you know, human factors really is

because, again, these last few months

595

have been eye opening for me and relating

my experience and my academic training.

596

Right?

597

You know, sitting at tables talking about

optics and lasers and color filters

598

and you’re like, you don’t

think about that really being human

599

but you’re like,

no, no, no, it's very human.

600

Or you're sitting there-

601

You can talk about rods and cones.

602

Rods and cones in the eye,

or you're talking thermodynamics,

603

but we're not doing the calculus.

604

You're just like,

I care about heat and energy

605

and how that's going to screw up

my performance.

606

Like, we're, we have the ability to at

least, you know, I know our company does.

607

We have the ability to go that deep

and at that depth and go

608

just far beyond, you know,

609

if we want to go that route.

610

But it's so-

611

To infinity?

612

To infinity and beyond.

613

I know there's an Interstellar

614

reference

coming out of my brain somewhere but

615

I don't, I don't actually like I didn't

616

understand coming in

how deep human factors could get.

617

And then I started doing it.

618

This, so it is deep data

and it is very, very quantitative.

619

You can touch it. It's tangible.

620

I just, you know, I think I've understood

621

or experience people don't other people

don't actually understand that.

622

And it really does translate

into real world consequences or real world

623

design updates or changes they’re just,

so the iterations

624

going back to kind of your concept

are just so fast and so close together.

625

No one actually ever really notices.

626

Yeah and that's I guess

it makes me think of, not to switch gears

627

too much, but you know, in gaming,

628

that's one space where you do

get to see those variations, right?

629

Once they're brought to market. Yes.

630

And I think in terms,

going back to acceptance.

631

Right? So for accepting risks,

632

I think of

633

the Wii, Nintendo Wii,

going back to the controller, right?

634

That, the first iteration

of that controller without the grips

635

and just-

636

The wrist strap?

637

Yeah having just the wrist strap

638

and no one actually using it

and seeing the videos of people

639

playing tennis and then throwing it

or hitting themselves in the face.

640

And I think to myself, now,

you know, being in industry,

641

that was just a risk

that was accepted at that point.

642

And then,

643

after they released the initial console

with the controllers,

644

then they released the grips,

the handgrips and then the industry,

645

they also included the instructions

for the wrist strap before you, once

646

you turn on the console, attach the strap,

647

put on the grips if you need them,

you know, things like that.

648

And I mean, I can go down the list of,

you know, different consoles.

649

So going back to the Atari,

when it comes to decision making,

650

that decision

making process is very simple.

651

You have a joystick,

and then they had buttons.

652

That was it.

653

There was just one joystick and then

the separate buttons later down the line.

654

And it was very simple

to kind of move up and down.

655

If I remember there was one game

I played when I was a child.

656

Atari at that point was pretty outdated.

657

But, there was a,

I think there was the only football game

658

that they released on Atari.

659

but I remember

just trying to figure out as a child

660

how to play this game,

but it became very simple.

661

It would almost, just because I had to use

two fingers on the joystick.

662

And that was it. It was very easy.

663

But looking today, you know,

664

the designs have progressed so much. But

665

other consoles have figured out

666

you just need the D-pad and joystick

and the buttons right here.

667

You know, I really don't have to think

too much about the process,

668

but then I go back to the Wii

and the Switch

669

you know, and thinking about all of that,

you know, as it applies to gaming,

670

you know, I think that's one example

that we could use to say, you know what?

671

We can see the real impact

on data of process and design.

672

But I want to ask you guys, have you,

do you have any other examples

673

in different industries where, you know,

you can clearly see the impact of

674

not only human factors,

but just integrating the methodologies

675

from both human factors as well

as, health and human performance as well.

676

You know?

677

If I may, tag on

to your controller example,

678

I have small hands.

679

I'm a small person.

680

So when Sony released their PS3,

681

they released that really clunky,

bulky controller.

682

Now queue me, am I allowed to call out

specific video games?

683

Okay, cue me trying to play Dishonored,

where you have to use both thumbs

684

and all of your fingers,

and I'm, I was just sitting there like,

685

my hands are entirely too small

for this controller, right?

686

Like I can't actually actuate anything

to input a command.

687

So, you know, mental demand is going up

here and I'm getting frustrated

688

and I put the game down.

689

PS4 comes out.

690

Controller is a little bit better. Right?

691

I go back to play Dishonored

692

and I'm like okay, the feel,

the design, little bit better.

693

Sad it took them

X amount of years to get here.

694

But we're

here, and I can get through the game.

695

Queue the PS5 coming out and boy,

696

how did they get that controller right?

697

I can hold it.

698

It fits in my tiny girl hands.

699

It fits in larger hands.

700

The joysticks are appropriately spaced.

701

The buttons are appropriately spaced,

hitting any of the triggers.

702

It's a dual, not DualSense,

703

what's the new one?

704

DualShock? Not DualShock.

705

DualShock is PS2.

706

That was the early version.

707

But there is resistance now

and it's it really interactive

708

and it’s haptic feedback in the triggers.

709

And it's a interactive experience.

710

And yeah, now the controller really

does scream at you but

711

These are interesting examples

because they actually,

712

you know, we're heavily,

pressured by users.

713

Right?

714

And so I don't know enough,

you know, inside baseball with them.

715

And I definitely

left probably a bit. I left,

716

video games behind probably at Atari and

717

by the time you got to those controllers

that were just buttons

718

and little joysticks, thumb joysticks

like, I have no clue what any button does.

719

I pursued other things.

720

But I watch people do it.

721

I'm into all that.

But it has been interesting.

722

I think that was, well,

obviously as a company,

723

they probably brought in human factors

people to help.

724

They had to.

725

Well to meet the market needs.

726

It was, because they went to market

with it that way.

727

And I guess the question that we would

pursue would be like with the updates

728

that are great for your hand,

which may be a 5 percentile female,

729

where I talked about anthro measurements,

what happened to the 95% male?

730

Like their hands

totally swamped the thing.

731

But can they have the big bulky

one that you didn't fit like

732

you know, is there interoperability

so that something that is better for

733

someone who's above the 50th percentile

versus below the 50th percentile,

734

it's just you need to be able to use

either controller

735

because the basic operations are the same.

736

It's I don't know how the controllers, you

know, communicate with the game overall

737

it may be very limited, that’s

a software problem.

738

But these are the issues.

739

Like again, we deal with that.

740

If you're trying to design something.

741

That's why like in a car, how much play

there is in all the facets of the seat,

742

you know, and the steering wheel, like,

I mean,

743

I like my seat up a little higher than my

744

spouse who sometimes drives my car

745

and complains about it and I'm like, well,

that's why you drive your own car

746

where it has, you know,

like multiple options when you get it.

747

Like if he just used his key fob he’d

be fine, right.

748

But so but going back to these

interesting things, which are generational

749

to some extent, like, again, we can talk

about what people were trained to buy

750

and are trainable, but joysticks

that had a lot of movement in them

751

like the original Atari joysticks, like

when you wanted up, like it moved a lot.

752

There was a lot of play.

753

Now this actually went

754

into the world of high performance,

like aviation.

755

Right.

756

And how you operate these planes, which

really means your operating a computer.

757

And you are trying to give direction.

758

Right.

759

And the original, stick was just like that

there was a lot of climbing, right.

760

So like you slammed it forward.

761

You slammed it back.

762

Left and right

763

and so you had a lot of haptic feedback

with respect to what direction

764

and kind of like now versus

765

gentle roll or like, we gotta go left now

and it's going to be a dramatic.

766

So that for a long time, was

767

pilots would experience it

768

if they were playing games

and they were experiencing it

769

in the cockpit,

their experience in the simulators.

770

And then of course

you go to a new generation aircraft

771

which been formulating

for some period of time.

772

And they are pursuing

new and different capabilities.

773

And I remember at one point reading

there was an abrupt change in that stick.

774

And that stick lost all motion

and it was just pressure sensitive.

775

So the stick didn't move,

but it was responsive

776

to how much force you're putting on

and the direction of the force.

777

The problem was the human was not getting

the haptic feedback to say the stick

778

recognized it until the well, the plane

moved and it’s going to move very quickly.

779

But it was a big transition

for those pilots

780

who spent 20 years

flying a plane that way.

781

And I'm sure it was a big adjustment

782

for the prior pilots who were going

from a very different actuator

783

to the joystick model.

784

Now, the joystick model went

785

from having a lot of dramatic haptic

feedback to very little, you know.

786

So then they had to go from software

787

perspective,

actually recreate haptic feedback.

788

So that the person giving the command via

789

pressure got the sense like oh,

you know what I'm saying.

790

Yeah, yeah. I hear it often.

791

Like up, back, left, right.

792

We were all being,

it had a responsive nature to it.

793

And they realized like, oh we can't just

this is where you have to bridge sometimes

794

when you're talking

about a new capability,

795

that step function change from one

capability to the next

796

is ignoring the fact that the human,

we have trained ourselves

797

a certain way based on an experience base

in this age it’s

798

very technologically based

and we can get to the other place.

799

But there's a transition.

800

And I will say that in the world of like

industry, those costs have to be assessed.

801

Retraining people

and changing the logistics

802

and supply chain are actually a function

of part of the business case.

803

Whether to make a change or not.

804

And people will not change

805

because they're like, is this worth it

806

overall for us to move to this,

say it’s a process improvement.

807

But what percent improvement does

this have to be to warrant

808

all of the infrastructure changes

that have to get us there, which include

809

like cognitive retraining,

didactic retraining, you know, like

810

and then the people who work on whatever

object it is, you know, the mechanics.

811

But it's almost like controller design,

you know, controllers and all.

812

I'm not going to come full circle

because it's still evolving.

813

But we now have gaming controllers

where you have, you're

814

training people on gaming controllers

for things like drones.

815

And sub-sea operations, ROVs,

things like that.

816

So I guess now we're drawing off of

817

the current generation, a

818

combined set of generations

user experience to actually,

819

I don't know if it actually simplifies

the process or the task.

820

But that's the question

that should be tested.

821

So not being directly involved

like in that work per se,

822

but how much was the

you know, we talked about cognitive load.

823

So it's always physical

and cognitive EOC’s

824

testing the, talked about load

meaning how much work is being done.

825

But then when does fatigue happen

and how does fatigue manifest.

826

And those are things like getting better

and smarter

827

at tools that help us again

measure them objectively

828

cause often fatigue,

829

you know,

830

is rated on a scale like, you know, even

levels of effort are rated numerically

831

and so you transform something qualitative

into quantitative, which, which is fine.

832

I mean, that's

833

that isn't a necessary thing.

834

But we're also seeking biomarkers and

other things that are more indicative and

835

agnostic with respect to your opinion.

836

You know, given in your self-assessment

and say, like,

837

I know you said you were fine

and it wasn't terrible,

838

but your eyes could not track.

839

Like your brain is fatiguing out

and trying to get to the part

840

of how sensitive and specific

are some of these biomarkers.

841

And I mean a very broad,

a very broad characteristic of biomarkers,

842

meaning like something like eye

tracking is a biomarker,

843

I'm not just saying

blood and urine sample,

844

you know, biological measures but

845

those are very interesting.

846

And it

I think in our world, like professionally

847

for people, they should be integrated

into these systems.

848

Not thought of as something

that has to be done in addition

849

because they're part of the work.

850

So it's like as you're sitting

staring at a computer screen,

851

you computer has a camera,

and I know you get

852

probably a whole other podcast

on, you know, privacy.

853

[Untranscribable due to laughter.]

854

There’s benefits to be had there

but there's risks.

855

but the idea that that camera could be

856

doing an eye tracking assessment

while you're reading

857

and the concept would be a software

algorithm in the background.

858

Understand your baseline and, you know,

you have to have some interaction with

859

it, like, I feel great today.

860

I had six or more hours of sleep

and I, you know, I'm raring to go

861

I had four cups of coffee

and then, you know, and you go at it

862

and whatever your interaction is, that is

the concept of your job or your task

863

and you know what success is.

864

You know, you go through your reading

865

your papers, you're doing your editing,

you’re you know building your report.

866

And like, life is good.

867

And then it's like four hours later

you've been at it

868

and suddenly, like, your eye

tracking is drifting.

869

Your reaction times are slower,

your keystrokes are sloppy,

870

you're making more mistakes,

and it's like you really need a break.

871

You know, like the

the concept of helping people be better

872

by using these tools

that are accessing them

873

and are sensitive and specific

to certain outcomes, meaning like,

874

you may not be willing

to admit you’re fatigued,

875

but you're showing all the signs

and symptoms of fatigue.

876

The best thing you could do for yourself

is go step away

877

from this interface

so you know save it up.

878

Lockdown. Go take a walk.

879

Go have your lunch. Then come back.

880

But you need to walk away from it.

881

Because we have particularly

in, high risk occupations,

882

you have a lot of go fever.

883

And again from a human factors sense

when we talk about assessing risk

884

and the idea of fatigue,

it becomes very, amorphous discussion.

885

You're like,

no, I'll just suck it up and get it done.

886

It was like, well, I understand that.

887

But that

may not be the safe and right choice.

888

You know, we all struggle with that.

889

Like,

you know, I can drive another ten minutes.

890

I can, you know, and go at this paper

another hour and you're like, well,

891

now I spent an hour staring at it,

wasn't able to complete a sentence.

892

Was that a good use of my time?

893

So in the end there's lots of ways

to apply these tools that I think

894

could be used to help the individual

as well as the goals of whoever

895

while you're there, whether it be for

pleasure or for work, or for medical care.

896

I mean, this goes for surgeons, too.

897

And I didn't

898

talk about some of the robotic surgery

where, similar to all this gaming.

899

You know, someone’s performing,

and now it's,

900

remote medicine,

robotic surgery happening.

901

Which is absolutely amazing.

902

But you really want objective assurance

that the person operating these devices,

903

the robotic arm on any spaceflight vehicle

that that they are

904

in the condition,

the right space to go do this.

905

And if they're not,

the technology can help

906

detect it and give them some feedback.

907

And it's not saying you're disqualified.

908

What it's saying is you'd be better

at this if you did it 20 minutes from now,

909

if you went and did what you could

do to like, rest and recover.

910

I think we just we push beyond our limits,

911

thinking

that that is the better of the choices.

912

And with some of these capabilities,

we could get that help.

913

We need to say like, here's another choice

for you and still preserve your outcome

914

and actually probably make that outcome

more likely, more safe and more effective.

915

But a little it’s you have to consider

like being willing and open to coaching.

916

Yeah, that’s very true.

917

But I think we're in a place

now where technology might be trying

918

to integrate that.

919

At least, I know my car does it right.

920

It'll show me a little coffee

cup you’re this focused.

921

Maybe you should take a break.

922

When you're drifting?

923

When you're drifting. Things like that.

924

And I think the automotive industry

has been on top of some of that.

925

You know,

926

it also clearly signals when people

are more significantly impaired.

927

And again it's non-judgmental.

928

It doesn't know if it's alcohol, drugs

or sleeplessness,

929

but all it knows

is that you're not staying in your lane.

930

It's taking snapshots.

931

I think as a whole

932

industry is probably trying to move

to that more active sensing and tracking.

933

But, you know, we're just not there yet.

934

Yeah.

935

So we've had a pretty wide

ranging conversation.

936

We have.

937

And I think it’s been good.

938

Same, same, and

939

I think we kind of typically

I go into the,

940

the phase of the conversation

where we discuss, we wrap up everything.

941

But I feel like

we've summarized everything

942

throughout the conversation with regards

to how human factors truly does impact

943

decision making at every level, with,

with regards to designs across industries.

944

So thank you both for joining us today.

945

And thank you to our listeners and viewers

for joining us today.

946

Once again, this has been an episode

of The Human Odyssey Podcast.

947

Please

948

find us on

949

all social media platforms

including, Spotify,

950

Apple and anywhere else, Facebook,

Instagram.

951

Where else-

952

[Offscreen whisper] YouTube, YouTube

953

YouTube as well,

954

and-

955

Getting help from the gallery.

956

Thank you.

957

Thank you to our viewers.

958

No, but please feel free to,

959

as you're watching this video.

960

Please don't forget to like

and subscribe as well as, comment

961

if you're finding us on Instagram

or Facebook and thank you again.

962

Hope see you next time.

963

[Laughter]

964

The Human Odyssey is presented

965

by Sophic Synergistics,

the experts in Human-Centered Design.

966

Find out more at SophicSynergistics.com.

967

Get smart, get Sophic smart.