In this episode, ATLEU’s Jamila Duncan-Bosu talks with Blackstone’s Charlotte Kilroy KC about ground-breaking litigation brought by Anti Trafficking and Labour Exploitation Unit (ATLEU), on behalf of a young Indonesian man on a seasonal worker visa who was left homeless and in serious debt following exploitation on a UK fruit farm. The case argues that the visa scheme lacks the necessary safeguards to protect people from slavery and exploitation.

Jamila also celebrates ten years of ATLEU’s work as the only UK charity dedicated to providing specialist legal representation to survivors of trafficking and slavery and advocating for their rights and justice.

Featured on the podcast:

• Charlotte Kilroy KC is expert in a wide range of areas of public law, civil law and human rights law. She has extensive expertise in bringing judicial review challenges to systems and policies, and has been involved in many of the leading cases on procedural fairness, natural justice and access to court.
• Jamila Duncan-Bosu is a founding solicitor of Anti Trafficking and Labour Exploitation Unit (ATLEU). Jamila leads ATLEU’s compensation legal team and specialises in employment and discrimination law and representing survivors of trafficking and slavery in compensation claims against their trafficker or those who have benefitted from their exploitation.

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Charlotte Kilroy KC: I am Charlotte

Kilroy, King's Council from Blackstone

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Chambers, and I'm here today with Jamila

Duncan-Bosu from the Anti Trafficking

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and Labour Exploitation Unit, which she

co founded, to talk about modern slavery

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and labour exploitation in the UK.

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You might think that slavery is

something that occurs in the history

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books or in faraway places and that

if it happens in the UK at all,

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it is only in very extreme cases.

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In fact, modern slavery and labour

exploitation is a growing problem, and

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the victims are often from overseas.

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Some employers are adept at exploiting

the vulnerability of foreign workers to

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trap them in exploitative arrangements,

which mean they are paid little or nothing

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for their work, but are so shackled with

debts, which they incurred to secure

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their jobs and to travel to the UK

that they can't leave their employment.

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Unfortunately, visa practices adopted

by the UK government exacerbate the

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situation because they often tie

workers to one employer so they are

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unable to leave abusive situations.

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Seasonal working visa schemes adopted

by the government to service the

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agricultural industry have ballooned

in numbers in recent years, despite

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the evidence that they are leading

to cruel exploitation of workers.

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Today, Jamila, you're going to be talking

about an important case, which the Anti

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Trafficking and Labour Exploitation Unit

are bringing against the Home Office to do

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with the exploitation of migrant workers.

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I've been working on this

case together with Jamila.

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It's about a young Indonesian man who

ended up with huge debts incurred in

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obtaining a job picking strawberries,

who was provided with little work on

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arrival and expected to endure abusive

and exploitative working conditions.

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He has been struggling for years

since to pay off his debts.

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Jamila is going to tell

you more about that case.

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And finally, before I ask Jamila some

questions about the work she's been doing,

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I want to flag that there is an event

held by the Anti Trafficking and Labour

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Exploitation Unit at Blackstone Chambers

on Thursday, the 20th of March, 5pm,

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when you can find out more about their

work, how you can get involved, and hear

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directly from survivors of trafficking.

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Jamila, could you start by telling us a

bit about yourself and about the unit.

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Jamila Duncan-Bosu: So I'm Jamila, I'm

an employment lawyer by training, and

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I head up all the compensation work,

which is done at the Anti Trafficking

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and Labour Exploitation Unit.

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So I'm going to refer to us as ATLEU

throughout the rest of the discussion,

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because it's a bit of a mouthful.

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So if I say ATLEU, I'm referring

to the Anti Trafficking and

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Labour Exploitation Unit.

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ATLEU fights human trafficking

and modern slavery in the UK.

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We are the only charity in the UK which

is dedicated to providing specialist legal

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advice and representation to survivors

of trafficking and modern slavery.

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We advocate for survivors safety,

their rights and justice, so

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they can recover and stay free.

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So we're really aiming to shut that

revolving door in terms of exploitation.

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We advocate for survivors rights,

justice, and safety so that they

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can recover and stay free for good.

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We work holistically across

multiple areas of law, helping

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survivors to secure human rights

protections, accommodation, support,

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immigration status, and compensation.

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We try to influence policy and

campaign for better rights and

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protections for survivors of

trafficking and modern slavery.

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So if you want to find out a little

bit more about the work that ATLEU

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does, we've got a newly revamped

website, so you can have a look there.

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So that's www.

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ATLEU.org.uk

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Charlotte Kilroy KC: Some of our

listeners might be surprised to hear

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that slavery is an issue in the UK.

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Can you tell us more about the kind

of situations that people are facing

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and the impact on their lives?

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Jamila Duncan-Bosu: So there is an

estimated 122,000 people in the UK

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who are in some form of slavery.

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And modern slavery exists

in many different forms.

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So that could be individuals who are

being trafficked into criminal activities.

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So the stories we hear about individuals

being trafficked into cannabis farms.

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It could be people who are

trafficked into sexual exploitation.

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People trafficked into domestic servitude.

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Those are the nannies and housekeepers.

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You know, brought to the UK and find

themselves working really onerous hours,

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being subjected to all kinds of treatment.

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These are individuals who may be

told that there is employment for

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them, but they need to pay money

to take up that employment in

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the UK, and then find themselves

in what's known as debt bondage.

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So they're essentially just

working to pay off this debt

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and can't get out of that cycle.

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Individuals who are working in, in

agriculture, working in poultry, etc.

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So really, it's very much every sector

of the UK, unfortunately, we're seeing

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individuals who have been trafficked

and subjected to modern slavery.

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Now the impact on those individuals

is, you know, it's, I can't understate

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just how devastating it can be.

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So we're talking about individuals

who suffer mental trauma, anxiety

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and depression because of the

treatment they've suffered.

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There are individuals who are, you know,

in isolation, they're in destitution

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for years and years, having never really

been paid for the work that they've done.

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There are individuals who have, you know,

suffered real detriment to their health.

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So I have seen, for example, workers who

are in forced labour working on building

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sites, and they're absolutely wrecked.

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They may have spent, you know, seven

days a week, 12, 13 hours a day working

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on building sites, no safety equipment,

have suffered injuries and not been

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given medical care and attention.

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So the impact on those individuals

physically and mentally is devastating.

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There are individuals who are in a

situation they can't really escape from.

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They're unfamiliar with UK systems.

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They have a mistrust of authorities.

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It's really common for a trafficker

to tell the individual that

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they're exploiting, that they

have control over the authorities.

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So for example, that they control

the police, if you complain to

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the police, you'll be arrested

and deported from the UK.

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I once acted for a client who was

a nanny who was being essentially

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held in her employer's house.

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She wasn't allowed to go out.

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She was literally working seven

days a week, looking after two

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small children, doing all the

cooking, all of the cleaning.

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Now, that front door wasn't actually

locked, but her employers had told her

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that they were very powerful and had

links to the police, so if she were

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to run away and go to the police, they

could have her arrested and deported.

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They told her that they had access

to cameras, so they actually pointed

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out traffic cameras in the street and

told her that they had been put there

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by them and that they could see if

she was trying to leave the house.

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They would ring the house at random

times and if she didn't answer

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quickly enough, she'd be beaten.

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So all of this was done to exert control

over this individual and that was one

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individual in a private household.

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We're seeing individuals, for

example, in nail bars or people

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who are working in, say, retail.

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And some of these small shops that

you might see and similar threats,

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similar things will have been said

to them to exert control over them.

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So yes, on one end of the spectrum, we've

got individuals who are being brought

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to the UK and potentially under lock

and key being mistreated and exploited.

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But in others, it's just those sort of

psychological controls that traffickers

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can bring to bear and one of the

strongest tools that they really have

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is actually fear of authorities and

fear of being deported and arrested.

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You know, one of the things that we

saw around the whole time that we were

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seeing lots of stuff in the press about

Rwanda and people being, you know,

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sent to Rwanda, this was a threat that

traffickers could actually use against

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the individuals they're exploiting.

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Again, if you try and get help or

disclose what's happening to you, we have

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the power to make this happen to you.

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So, the impact of trafficking

and modern slavery, it's very

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much on those individuals.

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It's devastating to them physically

and mentally, but actually it impacts

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on the rest of society as well.

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Because what we often then see

is essentially a driving down of

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terms and conditions for everybody.

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If you've got one business which has got

trafficked mistreated workers, they're

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obviously able to cut their margins.

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They're the ones that, you know,

can make profits in the market.

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What about those individuals who

want to comply with the law and

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want to employ people properly?

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You know, they're,

they're at a disadvantage.

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So trafficking is no good for individuals.

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It's clearly no good for society.

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And it ripples through all of society.

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It isn't just an abuse being

perpetrated on one individual.

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It affects all of us.

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Charlotte Kilroy KC: Thank you very much.

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That was fascinating.

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Those statistics about the

numbers of people in slavery in

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the UK are really staggering.

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Given the high level of need, how will

ATLEU work to maximise its impact?

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Jamila Duncan-Bosu: Well, we

specialise in working with some of

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the most complex, some of the most

vulnerable and traumatised individuals.

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What we really try and do to

maximise our impact is look at

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things like strategic litigation.

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So can we bring a bit of litigation

which will have an impact for

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not just the individual but for

a whole class of individuals?

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So, for example, we recently brought some

cases around the family worker exemption.

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So this was a provision in the National

Minimum Wage Regulations, which said that

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if you were a live-in domestic worker,

you weren't entitled to the National

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Minimum Wage, or any salary at all.

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So essentially, you could have a

domestic worker in your house, and as

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long as you sort of shared meals with

them, watched the TV together every

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now and again, There was no requirement

to pay them the National Minimum Wage.

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And we would regularly see workers

who were being trafficked, mistreated,

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and denied the National Minimum Wage.

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And when we brought claims to try and

obtain compensation, the employer would

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rely on the fact of this exemption

and say, well, we didn't have to

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pay you the National Minimum Wage.

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So we brought cases in the Employment

Tribunal, took cases all the way up to

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the Court of Appeal, and essentially

brought a case which said that

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that provision was discriminatory.

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Because actually most domestic workers

were women, so a bit of legislation

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which said that living domestic workers

don't get the national minimum wage

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impacted a bit harder against women.

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So we were able to litigate that issue

and basically, you know, assert that

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that was indirectly discriminatory.

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And we were successful.

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The result of that was that the government

repealed that bit of legislation.

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So it's no longer lawful to have a

live-in domestic worker and no longer

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pay them the national minimum wage.

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So we try to bring cases which

will have maximum impact.

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For example, there were issues around

individuals in prison who had been

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trafficked, who were victims of

trafficking, but not necessarily being

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recognised and being given the support

and protections necessary there.

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Again, we were able to bring cases around

that and effect change which assisted

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that individual but impacted the class.

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So that's what we really

try and do at ATLEU.

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In 2023 alone, ATLEU

assisted 285 individuals.

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We will often spend a lot of time working

with our clients and we try and do this

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holistically because what we really want

to try and avoid are individuals being

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traumatized by having to retell their

stories over and over and over again.

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So, as I said earlier, ATLEU has a,

you know, specialism in immigration.

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We have a public law team, housing

and support and compensation.

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So it's not uncommon for a

survivor to have, you know,

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several lawyers at ATLEU working on

different aspects of their claim.

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So it might be that I'm working

to obtain them compensation.

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Another colleague might be

regularizing immigration status.

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Another colleague may be dealing

with their housing and support needs.

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So what we try and do is create a holistic

approach to our clients and their needs.

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We also try and upscale the sector.

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Again, we learn a lot from the clients

we see in the cases that we do.

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So we've made training available

to other professionals and those

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who are working with survivors.

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We have an advice line.

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So about 500 plus professionals over

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contact ATLEU lawyers just to discuss

the cases that they're working on and

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share ideas and, you know, responses to

some of the issues that we're seeing.

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We set up quite recently,

a lived experience group.

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So these are actually survivors of

trafficking who are, you know, who

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have become activists and campaigners.

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So that's about empowering

those individuals and helping

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them to amplify their messages.

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Because the reality is that, you know,

ATLEU is a charity, it's here to support

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survivors of trafficking and modern

slavery, but the work we do must be

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informed by those individuals and the

experiences that they have, and that's

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something that's, you know, incredibly

important to us and it's very much at the

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heart of the work we do, we try and, as

I said earlier, try and influence policy

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work and campaigning and again, building

in lived experience and their voice.

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So we're a small organisation, but

we try and do as much as we can.

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Charlotte Kilroy KC:

That's very impressive.

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I've mentioned earlier the litigation

that we are working on together to do with

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the government's seasonal worker scheme.

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Can you start by telling us

a bit more about that scheme?

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Jamila Duncan-Bosu: So, the

seasonal worker scheme was a

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scheme set up by the government

to assist the agricultural sector.

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Prior to Brexit, we had lots of workers

who came from Europe who would do the

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sort of fruit and veg picking, who

were working in the poultry sector.

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Post Brexit, there was a sharp

decline in the number of workers

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available to do that work.

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So to try and fill that gap, the previous

government brought in or expanded

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on what had been a limited scheme

to allow workers to come to the UK.

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To pick out fruit and veg.

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So in 2019, there was a pilot scheme

and the government made around 2,500

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visas available, and that allowed

workers to come to the UK for a period

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of six months to work in agriculture.

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So that's picking fruit and veg.

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Once in the UK, those workers are limited

to working in the agricultural sector, and

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they can only be in the UK for six months.

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What happened during that pilot,

period was that lots of workers were

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brought in from Indonesia and Nepal

with a visa, which allowed them to

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pick fruit and veg for six months.

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These workers were promised

six months worth of work.

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So lots of these workers

took up this offer.

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Now, it's actually unlawful

to charge recruitment fees.

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You shouldn't be charging

individuals to take up employment.

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Unfortunately, there was very

little control around the scheme.

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And what we saw were lots of

workers who had been recruited

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via agents, who had been employed

by scheme operators in the UK.

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So scheme operators in the UK would

recruit workers from abroad and would

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use agents to help them do this.

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And what came out was that lots of

these workers were being charged

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these unlawful recruitment fees.

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So lots of workers would pay large

sums of money, often get into debt,

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borrowing that money from loan sharks,

selling property, selling personal items

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in order to come to the UK to take up

employment in the agricultural sector.

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Unfortunately, what we saw, as I

said, were lots of workers who were

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firstly paid these recruitment fees

to get to the UK, but once in the UK,

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suffering some quite poor treatment.

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So, there were workers who were finding

themselves in, you know, farms of

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really poor substandard accommodation,

workers who were being subjected to,

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you know, discriminatory treatment.

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So we're hearing complaints

of racism and sexism.

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There were workers working

incredibly long hours, but not

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being paid for all of those hours.

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There were workers with no idea of

their rights, who to complain to if they

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were unhappy about what was going on.

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In the course of their employment, so

after that first pilot, there were lots

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of concerns in the anti trafficking

sector and calls for the government

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to sort of slow down and think more

carefully about what needs to be done,

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because the one thing we do know is

that where we have workers who are

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under a sort of tied visa, so where

they're limited to a specific employer

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or specific sector, that there is a risk

of those individuals being exploited.

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So actually, there really needs to

be close care and attention paid.

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So we know this because, you know, for

many years, those in the anti trafficking

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sector had been talking about tied

visas in the domestic worker context.

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So as I mentioned earlier, the women

who were coming over to be nannies and

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housekeepers, they were a relatively

small cohort of, of worker, yet there

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was lots of exploitation going on there.

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And we could see that was coming out

of the fact that, you know, there

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was no real inspection going on.

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Workers weren't being told about

their rights in the UK or given

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information about, you know, where to

go if they had a concern in the UK.

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So those problems that we'd spotted

with a sort of smaller cohort, we

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could see being amplified in terms

of the seasonal worker sector.

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So there were lots of calls for the

government to slow down and have

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a look at this sector and really

think about what could be done

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to kind of reduce those kinds of

factors, which bring in exploitation.

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Unfortunately, the previous government

didn't really hear any of those concerns.

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So where we'd had 2,500 visas being

issued and, you know, instances

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of exploitation, we've moved to a

position where we've got around sort

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of 45,000, 55,000 visas being issued.

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And actually, those concerns

and those complaints around

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exploitation, they're growing.

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So we've seen, at ATLEU certainly, we've

seen, workers who are reporting the fact

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that they've been promised six months

worth of work have got to the UK and, in

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fact, only have been employed for around

a month before being told that they've got

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to leave the UK, and these will be workers

who've borne the cost of coming to the UK.

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We're hearing about workers who get to

the UK again, having been promised six

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months worth of work and being told

that they'll be working around sort

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of 35 hours a week, being told there's

actually only sort of four hours a day.

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In terms of, you know, work available

to them, again, similar complaints

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about substandard accommodation,

complaints about mistreatment

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and harassment from other workers

and supervisors in those farms.

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One of the things that we've discovered

is actually that the scrutiny of what's

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going on and the level of inspection

isn't really what it should be.

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And again, those things like those really

basic things like having an employment

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contract in a language that you can

read, understanding what your rights

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are, who you can speak to, who you can

contact if there's a problem, all of

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these issues and these really quite

basic things have still not been fixed.

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So the difficulties we've

seen earlier are simply being

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perpetuated and they're growing.

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Charlotte Kilroy KC: Can you give us

any examples, perhaps the case that

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we've been working on, but others as

well, where migrant seasonal workers

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are having their rights breached.

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Jamila Duncan-Bosu: So I'll touch on

our case in a moment, but, again, we're,

324

you know, there have been cases and

there's actually a case going through

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the employment tribunal at the moment

of workers, again, had been charged

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large recruitment fees to come to the

UK, had been told that some of the costs

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that were being charged was to cover

the cost of their flight to the UK.

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Once in the UK, those

workers were then told that.

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Large deductions were going to be

made to their salaries to cover

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these costs and these costs had been

increased with no prior warning.

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The workers obviously weren't happy

about that and essentially sort of

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unionized and raised complaints and the

response was to dismiss those workers.

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Those workers then found themselves in

a position where they had no employment,

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no one they could really turn to,

and they were essentially being, you

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know, essentially left destitute.

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Now some of those workers have

now tried to bring a claim in the

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Employment Tribunal in relation to

the way in which they've been treated.

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For a lot of workers, actually

being able to try and get some kind

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of recompense, or compensation for

what's happened is nigh on impossible.

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To have a really good chance of getting

a compensation or raising complaint

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about what's happened to you, you

really need to be here in the UK.

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But for most workers, as soon as that

work dries up, so if they're dismissed

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for having made complaints about the way

they're being treated or not being paid

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properly, if they've dismissed, they don't

actually have any right to be in the UK.

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So they then have to find a way to get

themselves back to their home country if

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those arrangements haven't already been

made and actually pursuing a claim from

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outside of the UK is incredibly difficult.

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So.

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I've talked about there being problems

in the system, but actually the workers

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themselves being really able to take

a stand and do something about it is

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incredibly difficult because of the short

term nature of the visa and the fact that,

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you know, they're illegal, essentially,

if they overstay that visa, and obviously

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the majority of these workers don't

want to be in that position, you know,

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we've seen stuff in the press about very

early on when there were lots of issues

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around the, uh, Seasonal worker visa of

workers running away from their employment

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because they were being treated so poorly.

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So again, I'd heard reports of, you

know, women who'd been sexually assaulted

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because they've been put in really

poor accommodation, these caravans

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in an open field with no locks, etc.

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So workers leaving that situation

or workers have been told that

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they would have six months work.

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I've only had three weeks work and

they've got debts to pay because they've

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borrowed this money from a loan shark

or from somebody abroad in order to

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be able to take up this employment.

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So those workers would often

leave their employment, seek

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advice and bring an asylum claim.

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But that's a very, very

small group of individuals.

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The vast majority of workers have come

to the UK on the promise of six months

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employment to pick fruit and veg and

very much just want to leave again.

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Every worker that I've come across

has really just been wanting to earn.

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They saw this as an opportunity to

improve their situation by earning some

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money, and that's all they wanted to do.

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So at the very bare minimum, we

should be ensuring that those

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workers rights are protected.

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If someone is willing to come to

the UK to pick our fruit and veg,

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then we should be trying to ensure

that their rights are protected.

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Charlotte Kilroy KC: And how about

the case that we've been working on?

378

How is that progressing?

379

Jamila Duncan-Bosu: Yes, well, I'll

tell you a little bit about that case.

380

So, Atlee was acting for a

young man who I'll call Ishmael.

381

So, he was a young man who had finished

high school, wanted to go to university,

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but didn't have the money to do so.

383

So, through friends, he heard about

the various schemes which were being

384

run in the UK, for individuals to come

to the UK to pick our fruit and veg.

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He was invited to a recruitment session

where he was told that he could be

386

earning around sort of two and a

half thousand pounds a month, that he

387

would have six months worth of work.

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That he'd be provided

with decent accommodation.

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And he thought, great, this

is an excellent opportunity.

390

Six months of work in the UK,

picking fruit and veg would enable

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me to go to university and that, you

know, help him fulfill his dreams.

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So having been to that recruitment

session, he was then told that there would

393

be various fees that he needed to pay in

order to take up employment in the UK.

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So he borrowed money in order to cover

some of those fees, was then told that

395

he needed to cover the cost of some of

his equipment in the UK, like safety

396

boots and a raincoat and so on, and

that he needed to have a, you know,

397

at least a thousand pounds with him

to take up this employment in the UK.

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So again, borrowed money.

399

His parents weren't particularly well off.

400

So to help him take up this

opportunity, they allowed their

401

property to be put up as security.

402

For that loan.

403

So essentially they allowed a mortgage

to be taken out, if you like, with loan

404

sharks to enable their son to come to

the UK, to pick, to take up employment.

405

So he came to the UK again on the promise

of six months work once in the UK, you

406

know, this didn't come to fruition.

407

So in fact, he wasn't given yet.

408

Who's expecting to work 35 hours a week.

409

That didn't happen.

410

So there would be weeks where he'd

be working a lot less than that.

411

He came to the UK in November and he

did raise the fact will there be lots of

412

fruit and veg to be picked in November

and was assured, yes, absolutely, there

413

will definitely be lots of work for you.

414

So, as I said, once in the UK, he

wasn't given the hours that he was

415

expecting, didn't earn anywhere as

much as he thought that he would.

416

But meanwhile, this debt that had

been incurred in his home country

417

still needed to be serviced.

418

So he was very much aware that

he needed to work as much as he

419

could to try and service that debt.

420

Other workers on that same farm had

raised complaints about the fact

421

that they weren't getting all the

hours that they'd been promised.

422

And some of those were asked to leave.

423

So he came, you know, he was in fear.

424

He thought they had no choice but

to keep his head down and just carry

425

on working as much as he could.

426

After he'd been working for a couple

of months, he was then told that there

427

was no more work for him in the UK and

that he would need to find his way home.

428

Now, he had been expecting to be here

for six months, so his ticket was booked

429

for him to return six months later.

430

So he was contacting his scheme operator,

contacting the agent who had assisted

431

him to take up this employment, and was

simply told, not our problem, you've

432

got to try and find your own way home.

433

So, he had no, you know, he hadn't

earned what he thought he would.

434

He'd been trying to service

this debt in his home country.

435

And now finds himself in a position where

he's now homeless because he can't stay on

436

the farm that he's at, but he isn't able

to just return straight home because he

437

hasn't got the money to buy a new ticket.

438

Left in that situation, he had no choice.

439

So he spent the night sleeping

rough, but then actually managed

440

to find himself other employments.

441

But again, this was kind of, you know

black market employment, if you like,

442

so, uh, agent that he found on Facebook

said, Yep, I can find you some work, but

443

you'll need to pay to take up this work.

444

And of course, he didn't have that money.

445

So which the agent said, Fine, I

can just hang on to your passport.

446

So this, this agent took his passport,

and then he had to work for a period.

447

And the money that he earned working

in a takeaway was enough for him to

448

get his passport back and survive

until a point where he would

449

be able to get the flight home.

450

But actually when it came to getting that

flight home, as he was getting ready to

451

board and he was telling his parents that

he'd be home soon, what came out was that

452

the loan sharks were visiting his parents.

453

They, you know, he'd been, he'd fallen

off being able to pay this debt back.

454

So his parents were getting calls

from the loan sharks, even had a

455

situation where the loan sharks

were outside the family home.

456

It got to a point where the parents

thought that they had no choice but

457

to re-sign the terms of the loan.

458

Hearing all of that, Ishmael thought that

he had no choice but to try and stay in

459

the UK so he could carry on trying to

work so that he could pay off that debt.

460

It was only when he came into contact with

ATLEU that he realised what had happened

461

to him was essentially trafficking.

462

So he'd been deceived into coming into

the UK on the basis that there was a

463

six month worth of work for him and

that he'd be earning this sum of money.

464

In fact, what had happened is he'd

incurred debt to come to the UK.

465

And once in the UK, all he was

doing was servicing that debt.

466

So essentially he was in debt bondage.

467

So having been referred to ATLEU, my

colleagues in the immigration unit

468

were able to look at that situation and

actually conclude this really does look

469

like trafficking and make representations

to the competent authority.

470

So that's the part of

the home office, which.

471

Recognizes individuals as

having been trafficked or being

472

subject to modern slavery.

473

So he was recognized as somebody

who'd been trafficked to the UK.

474

We, in our compensation unit, then looked

at what we could possibly do to, to

475

obtain compensation for his treatment.

476

But what really struck us was that

the reason he was in that situation

477

was because of the visa regime.

478

So as I said earlier, you know, after

that pilot, there had been, you know,

479

Obvious problems with that scheme.

480

I mean, workers not being, you know, you

know, it's all well and good saying to

481

someone you'll get 32 hours a week, but

what happens when that doesn't happen?

482

Who do you complain to?

483

You know, lots of the workers we see don't

even know who to go to if they're injured.

484

You know, are they entitled

to register with a GP?

485

Are they entitled to go to A&E?

486

It's, you know, it's very patchy.

487

In terms of what information

workers are given.

488

So we could see this had happened with

Ishmael, you know, he produced the

489

documents that he'd been given prior to

coming to the UK and not all of them were

490

in his own language that he could read.

491

So what became clear to us is that a

lot of what had happened to Ishmael was

492

because of this visa regime and because

of the government's failure to really.

493

You know, focus on the problems which

have been spotted and really think

494

about how they could tighten it up,

knowing what we know about tied visas,

495

where an individual's right to be in

the UK, their ability to earn when,

496

when, when someone is tied to their

employer and tied to a visa, when we

497

know that those things can be factors

which lead to someone being exploited.

498

When designing the visa regime

for agricultural workers, all of

499

that should have been in mind.

500

After the pilot, where we saw

the problems, again, all of

501

that should have been in mind.

502

So to us, it was very much a case

of this visa regime interfering

503

with workers human rights.

504

So in Ishmael's case, he had been

subjected to what amounted to trafficking

505

or modern slavery because of the

fact that he was in debt bondage.

506

So it seemed to us that that visa

regime wasn't doing enough to protect

507

workers from being trafficked or

enslaved or mistreated or subject

508

to really severe labor exploitation.

509

So actually the real changes need

to be around that visa regime.

510

So the case that I've been working

on with Charlotte is one that really

511

looks at the failings of that visa

scheme and how it impacted on Ishmael.

512

So we're essentially arguing that

he was subject to trafficking

513

and modern slavery because of

failures within that visa regime.

514

Charlotte Kilroy KC: You mentioned

that there had been reports

515

about the problems with the visa

scheme before it was expanded.

516

Can you just give some brief details

about what reports there were?

517

Jamila Duncan-Bosu: So there have been

many organisations in the anti trafficking

518

sector who were concerned about what

was happening with the visa regime.

519

So for example, you've got organisations

like FLEX, so they're called Focus

520

on Labor Exploitation, and they

do lots of sort of monitoring and

521

interviewing of workers to see

what's happening in this sector.

522

And they were able to, you know,

they, they were able to, briefed

523

government quite fully about some

of the issues they were saying.

524

There were organisations like the Work

Rights Centre, and Works Right Centre

525

Scotland, who had again been briefing

government and raising concern about

526

some of the things they were seeing.

527

There are organisations like

the, uh, Land Workers Alliance.

528

So again, organisations which are seeing

trafficked workers and the, the phenomenon

529

they were describing was mistreatment

within the seasonal agricultural sector.

530

So the government really are on

notice of the fact that there

531

is a problem with the scheme.

532

So government have talked about, um,

uh, inspection and, and potentially

533

reviewing that scheme, but there doesn't

seem to be a huge amount of movement.

534

One of the things that happens,

for example, is that the government

535

have mandated these various scheme

operators, so these companies, to

536

sort of dole out the visas and to

manage these workers in the UK.

537

But there doesn't seem to be a huge

amount of scrutiny of what's going

538

on with those scheme operators.

539

So, for example, last year,

one of those scheme operators

540

had their license removed.

541

But actually, it was the organisations in

the anti trafficking sector who are doing

542

lots of the mobilizing and making sure

that the workers knew what their rights

543

were and trying to, you know, speak to

members of government to try and protect

544

these workers and make sure they knew, you

know, what was going to happen to them.

545

Because on the face of it, the

scheme operator losing their

546

license meant that these workers

were on the face of it illegal.

547

So, you know, there is no real

excuse for the government to

548

continue to turn a blind eye.

549

To some of the issues that the sector

are raising around the scheme and the

550

speed at which they need to look at this

is, is, you know, they really do need

551

to pick up the pace because every year

we're increasing the number of visas

552

and the number of workers who are making

complaints of exploitation are increasing.

553

Charlotte Kilroy KC: I know

you're working together with other

554

organisations about this issue.

555

Um, can you tell us a bit more about them?

556

Jamila Duncan-Bosu: Yes, so ATLEU

are on the organising committee for

557

the seasonal worker interest group.

558

So that's an alliance of

organisations which are calling

559

for an overhaul of the visa scheme.

560

So I mentioned that Ishmael is bringing

a claim in order to be compensated

561

for some of the treatment that he

suffered, but what he really is

562

really keen to push is for no other

worker to be treated in the same way.

563

He's been in a position where he's a, he's

a young man, you know, he was in a, he was

564

a teenager when he came to the UK to take

up work, and he's not been able to return

565

to his home country because of this.

566

debt that he's in and he doesn't

want that to happen to anybody else.

567

So very much he wants an

overhaul of the system.

568

So our claim is to obtain some

compensation, but what's really, really

569

important to him and, you know, important

to other workers is the declaration that

570

he's seeking, that there is a problem

with the visa regime, that it's not human

571

rights compliant, that it's leading to

workers being trafficked and exploited.

572

So we're hoping that between Ishmael's

litigation and the work being done by

573

the Seasonal Worker Interest Group and

others in the sector, that actually the

574

government really will shine a light on

what's happening and really think about

575

those changes that need to be made.

576

Charlotte Kilroy KC: Thank you very much.

577

Can I end this session by reminding

those who are listening about how

578

they can find out more about ATLEU,

which is at website www.atleu.org.uk

579

and also by coming to the event that I

mentioned at the start of this podcast on

580

the 20th of March at 5:00 PM at Blackstone

Chambers when ATLEU will be holding a

581

drinks reception to celebrate its work.

582

Intro/Outro: Thank you for

listening to The Litigation Podcast

583

presented by Blackstone Chambers.

584

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585

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586

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