Mothering teenagers is generally considered to be a nightmare. Samia and Saba make it look easier. And show us how it makes us better leaders. Saba even admits to reading many leadership books that persuaded her that she had to change but that it was only when her teenage sons said the same thing to her that she actually did. Of mothering she says “I thought I was there to teach my sons but rapidly realised how much they were teaching me and this translated directly and forcefully to my leadership. “

There is so much learning in this episode for leaders.

I also pull out Samia’s words about communication skills and making sure that you are constantly upskilling them as a leader. Things change, generations are different, how we communicate has to evolve. And if we don't, Samia says we develop “cataracts” and don't see things.

Julia Middleton 0:01

Unknown Speaker 2:29

Boys and girls really interesting, because I've never actually thought how transferable the skills were from being a mother to what I do at work. And when you ask me the questions, I do it all the time. So I think I read somewhere and I was, I was doing a presentation on public mental health, that teenage children, their brain, especially the prefrontal cortex, which is the bit that does all their reasoning, etc. When you're in your teenage, and all the connections are being made in your brain and is still developing, it's almost like someone driving a car without a manual sort of thing. So that's what they're feeling. But as parents, we feel, oh my god, we need to be in control. We need to stop this disaster happening or that sharpening. And we try and lay down our boundary. But what I've realised, and I think more so with my daughter, actually, than my son's is that the key thing is a we need to let them make their own mistakes and let them walk on the path that they have chosen. We guide them. And but we can't change, we can guide them, we can help them navigate. But we can't stay away from them, they've got to do that. Because the lesson they learn when they make the mistake is much more meaningful than us telling them, You shouldn't do this, or you should do this because for them, it justifies logic, you know, they want to do it, they think it's the right thing. And until they don't learn themselves, bit about giving that autonomy to people, which is what I try to do as the leadership skill I bring into work as well as giving my team the autonomy, to make decisions, knowing full well that there's a risk, but there's risks to everything, and things may not work out. But the learning that comes from that is really good. And when the learning happens, I think it's as a as a mother, what I've learned is, the worst thing you can do is to blame or shame your child. And that's exactly what you shouldn't do at work as well. So if things happen, things happen, I always when we're discussing, for example, at work we're discussing, like having a debrief after a situation that we've dealt with or something. The three questions we normally ask him to debrief. I think it's really interesting how they're framed. The first one is very relatively straightforward. What went well. And rather than saying, what didn't go well, or what you didn't Do well, what could have gone better? It's just that nuanced way of words, isn't it? So it's not as taking away any any culture of blame or shame, which I think is hugely detrimental both as a parent, as a mother, and as a leader in any word, feel that you are. And And the third question is, what could you have done better. And that really, really helps because the minute you use the wrong words, or something, you've damaged their self esteem, whether it's your child, or whether it's your colleague, or whether it's your subordinate, or you know, anyone at work, you've got to be very careful about doing that. So that I think is about is key, letting them walk their journey, and being there to guide them and to navigate them. But a lot of that you can only do Julia, if you have got good communication skills. And children you realise and both with my sons, and with my daughter, regular chickens with them, okay? It doesn't have to be anything fancy. Are you gonna? How are you? How's the day been? You know, anything interesting, how was college, how was uni, they then begin to feel that it's a safe area, they can talk and only when they feel like talking. And there was a lot to be said about upskilling our communication skills and also upskilling our knowledge, for example, I'll give you an example. With my children, they use all of these emojis. And they use all of these slang or whatever they're called GIFs and emojis and Idk. I'm like, I'm asking my daughter, what does that mean? I don't know. Oh, okay. I think we all know what LoL is, or, you know, rLf rolling on the floor laughing but there's so much that they used to I'm too I'm constantly upskilling my skills in order to be able to communicate with them, because they use a totally different language. And it's very alien to me, because they you know that they're so much more technological than we ever were. And sometimes I found out that if they don't want to talk, because you've got to read the room, whether you're at work, whether you're at home, you've got to read the room. If they don't want to talk, then maybe, you know, we have a family group chat. And I'll put some things there because I know at least there'll be seen, sometimes I get a response. Sometimes I won't. Sometimes I have to push for a response. But that's life. That's work as well, you know, the little bit of pushing for respond to the kin to mothers nagging. But I know when my mom used to nag I used to hate and sometimes I think, oh, no, I'm becoming her again. But our generation of parents was so so different. And we have had to evolve I think I constantly evolving as a mother. So I have to constantly upskill and another thing, I think, which which was very poignant, because when I read it, it's always stayed with me. It's actually a saying by one of one of the companions of Prophet in Islam. And his name is Ali. And he was a very close companion, he went on to become one of the leaders of the Muslim community wants the Prophet died as well. He has the same which, which says, Do not treat your children like your generation, because they're not. They're a different generation. And that's always stayed with me, the pressures that our children are facing, are so much different. Every Age has its own pressures, every generation has its own pressures. But the nature of the pressures and the circumstances and the environment we live in, has changed so much. So I think I've had to educate myself a lot. And that, that I think is key because when you're in the workforce, you cannot stay stagnant. You've got to evolve as someone in the workforce, whether you're a manager or a leader or just a colleague, you've got to evolve, you just can't stay with those fixed ideas and you've got to constantly sort of check and recheck yourself. Children see things from a very different lens than I think we do. Our lens gets very jaded, you know how we grew up with. We get cataracts physically in our lens, but the I think that's metaphorically true as well as, as we as adults grow. We do our lens gets a bit jaded, and our perspective on life is very jaded. So you need that fresh influx and that fresh perspective. So I check out things a lot, my kids, when I look at how I was, so even with all three of my children, I have changed as a mother. But what how I was 20 years ago is very different from how I am now as a mother and what I I've learned and key to that I think Julia is they are also different. They're individuals in their own rights, you cannot paint them with the same brush stroke, you just can't. So what works for one will work for another, especially when it comes to the boys and girls. So to girls, not being stereotypical, but just looking at my house. So my daughter will want to come and talk to me about every ATPG thing that's happening, you know, even when she'd know that I'm busy, and I'm sort of doing what she just wants to just put it out there was my boy that I'd have to prize and probe and even get a few. Not grant, but words out that, you know, okay, so what else, anything else, elaborate, but that they're so different. They may have different needs, they may have special needs, you know, also, you learn to treat them as individuals in their own rights. And you have to bring that lesson into your workplace. It's a key leadership lesson, you have to treat individuals as individuals, you can't just think that something will work for everyone universally. And when I line manage people, I've had a variety of different people I've learned managed, I think that's one key skill I bought, I need to try and understand them, I need to try and build that trust, and you build that trust with your children as well. But you need to build that trust as leaders in the workplace. And then you need to be savvy enough to be able to say, Okay, this is what works for them. This is what drives them. This is a no no for them. So then you operate within those boundaries, almost. And you learn that you learn that.

Do you think having teenage children forces you to rethink power and authority?

Oh, yes. It does. Anything you told them to do, the first thing you get is y. And that y actually has made me think now because I can't FOB them off with something like because I said, I do try the back sometimes, you know, when I'm really fed up? Because I tend so it doesn't work. They need the logic. For example, I'll give you an example. When I was growing up, there were certain things you didn't do. And you didn't understand why you couldn't do them. And I remember, our generation of parents used to say, well, eight is not the dumb thing be what will other people think? So I grew up, I grew up with quite a lot of that, in that cultural environment. What will others think girls can't stay out like, late at night? Girls can't be seen doing this that dressing up in a certain way? What will others think? And I think it worked with me. But when I tried that with my children, and they've challenged me, it's actually made me think, yeah, you know, so what, this is your life, this is our life. These are our values, if others are going to think something, you know, either their opinion really matters to you. And in that case, they wouldn't think wrong. But otherwise, why not? And that was a very hard lesson for me to learn to be it was a very hard lesson because it was something I used to sort of grow up hearing. And it's ingrained in you with other things. You can't do the dissident, right. You can't be seen doing this. But since my kids have challenged me, I have I have learned, and how does that translate into your leadership? That translates into our leadership, not having to explain or justify yourself to everyone at work about certain things that you you do. I think it's a bit about also about being open to learning new stuff all the time. As I said earlier, it's about upskilling. ourselves, and we constantly need to upskill ourselves as parents, I think we do it subconsciously, a lot of the time, but also upskilling ourselves in the work environment and as leaders as well to be able to understand the teams that you're working with and the environments you're working with, and how you can push those boundaries in a sensible way where they really ought to be pushed, or challenged.

Thank you. Thank you, Samia. That was really practical transferable skills, motherhood to leadership to us. We learned a lot. One thing that absolutely is really in my head after our conversation, is this is this concept that that mothering teenagers makes you sort of carry on endlessly upskilling modernising seeing the world through different people's eyes and particularly different generations eyes and Preventing from preventing yourself from developing, or that cataracts in your eyes that will blow your vision or at the very least delaying those cataracts developing in your eyes so that you are endlessly upskilling and modernising powerful stuff. And now over to Saba, who's sitting in Kara, and I talked to her about when the changes in perspective happen through mothering. And of course, being Saba, she immediately rewound to those early years and the very beginning of motherhood. And she talked about how, how motherhood changed her perspective. So totally.

Well, it starts from from the minute you have children, period, I think you have to get out of your head. And that kind of focus on yourself and starting, change your perspective, start understanding that there are lives that are dependent on you, but they are not owned by you. So how can you really keep them alive, but give them all the space in the world to explore, make it all mistakes, you know, full on stand up again, and just be there to support and to provide them with a safety net slack. You know, when you are jumping on the ropes in a circus, you just need the safety net, because you you trust that someone would hold you if you if you follow Phil. And mothering is not necessarily something that women experience only if they have their own children, I think we've learned we, we find ourselves playing that role with with all others in our lives, depending on the extent to which we want to get out of ourselves out of our way to be there for others. And I think that's, that's, that's part of our nature as givers of life. Being a woman, as simple as that, even if you're not physically, you know, if you don't physically give birth to a child. And being a mother of teenagers, I remember how much I was adamant on me being there to teach them. And I realised when I became more honest with myself and reflective, because you know, sometimes you're so busy to reflect. But you have to do that, because you start realising that you're learning from them way more than you're teaching them. You're learning how to be humble, you're learning how to say I don't know, you don't know. Because the worst thing we can do to them is to try to, you know, you learn how you can be vulnerable can show them the human side of you, because you know, you're not a machine, you're a human being. And sometimes you get tired, or sometimes you don't want to talk and sometimes you want space for yourself. So all those things, I think I really had to learn to do better. And sometimes the learning, I wouldn't at all say that I was smart enough to learn all these things by myself. It was this was inspired by comments and critiques given to given to me by my children, by my two boys. I think one thing that I did well, and I you know that myself on the shoulder and say well done is I always made it clear that we have space to express ourselves. So even when they're not happy with my performance, they don't shy away from saying it as is. And there were so many incidents where they said, Mom, why are you pretending that you're okay? I remember my my younger one telling me once I was working in a refugee camp, and I was moving between home where everything is available, were warm, you know, we have food in the fridge and what have you and the refugee camp where things were really, really harsh. And I had to wear my mother face before, you know, walking into the house and start interacting with them. And then he said, Why do you have to always pretend that you are okay, it is okay not to be okay. And although I read it so many times in so many books, but I never heard that say it, you know, being sent to me by my child. And that was a very important lesson for me. So instead of trying to hide my truth, hide my feelings are so openly talking to them about things and that's something that I now take naturally to the boardroom or to you know, my team, when things are not okay, it is okay to say that you know what, today is not a good day, or I'm not doing this well, or I'm not coping, because that's what leadership is all about. It's not about knowing it all. It's about knowing when you don't know and allow others to shine and to bring their knowledge to bring their knowledge to the table. So humility, and that kind of honest self reflection is very key. And I think it was practice both with my kids and then I tried to adopt and adapt that and make it look quote unquote professional and take it to the meeting room with my team. The number of times that kids came home and said, Mom, I didn't do well today, I had an exam. I didn't do well. I said, Okay, fine, we can't change the result you haven't done? Well, you failed, whatever, why? The questions were difficult. Were they out of the textbook? Now they work. Okay, so the questions were from the textbook, why did we really? Why weren't you able to answer that? We weren't given enough time to study. So it's obviously it was something else, it wasn't my responsibility. And then all you can do is not to say, No, you're wrong, you did not study, you did not manage your time, you can just keep probing them until they get to the bottom line. Because until they realise that, you know, they could have done better, there are things that can be amended or changed or fixed, they will not own that mistake, learn from it and try to avoid it comes to future. And I don't see that any different from your daily interaction with yourself? Well, there is a bit of a difference isn't that because with your kids, you sort of you're in this for life.

However tough or hard or difficult it becomes with leading at work, that comes a point where you have to say, This isn't working.

Very true. But I think the only way to lead with absolutely love and care is to lead as if you stuck with these folks forever. Because you know what, yes, you may reach a point where it's not working, and you're let go. But whatever you do with that whatever mentoring coaching support you provide, will stay with them forever. So you have to take your responsibility as a leader that you were part of their journey. And whatever good or bad you'd leave them with might affect them for the rest of that journey. And I think that's it, I feel I take it very personal when I fail to help one of my colleagues, one of my team members to flourish, and grow. So yes, you can look at it that, you know, if it doesn't work, it doesn't work, or you take responsibility of wanting to help others make it work. You ever find

let's turn it round, do you ever find? And certainly I have. Did you take too much of those mothering skills

into work?

Yes, with your boys, you tried to be you know, loving, fair and firm. With the staff I'd like I tried to be fair from with love. And the order of words matter a lot. Because you know what, as you rightly say, I'm dealing with professional adults who are responsible for their behaviour, I can mentor, coach, hold hand, demonstrate, show, you know, learn by doing whatever, I can do all the professional tricks. But at the end of the day, if you really want people to succeed, you can't overlook them. And you have to be fair and firm. And you have to offer them all the opportunities to learn. But the end of the day, we are responsible for our own actions. And that's part of leadership as well. You know, you can care, but over caring sometimes may hinder the ability of certain individuals from growing, and to be honest with you, even with your kids, particularly when the cane teenagers want being over protective, or overly loving may may lead to blindness. So it's a very thin line, you know, and I think both roles require very similar kinds of skills.

One of the things that makes me laugh, is when people use the word Well, if you if you ask people to do word association with mothering, you come up with loving and warmth and support. And, and, and, and, and, and, and no one ever says and fierce and demanding and brutal and driven. But mothering skills are also immensely first sometimes I'll say, just as leadership is to

absolutely, sometimes you have to be harsh. And you have to put your heart aside like you know, when you are, the disciplining role that you play requires consistency. You need to know that you cannot be angry simply because you're feeling like you know, or you cannot be, you know, the invention of the naughty chair, something that I had to come up with an equivalence of and that was like a quote the thinking corner and asking the child to go and sit in that thinking corner and think about their action and why it isn't that pleasant and what can be done for fix. It took a little a lot of discipline and it used to break my heart and I see them standing up there and just you know, with tears coming down and their bed He knows it. I don't want to be here. I haven't done anything wrong. So no, no, no, you have to take your time time off. Because think about it. And the whole shift and paradigm from the naughty chair when I was growing up, and the way we were treated, because you are naughty, and you're going to be sent to the naughty chair, to the time we came, where was that evolution, addressing the exact same wrong behaviour. And saying, it's not a punishment is time out, go think about what you have done. It's your action, not you. And I can't remember the number of times I just wanted to run to them and hug them, you know that this is their only chance to learn how to take responsibility, how to think and reflect how to separate between themselves, the unconditioned, we love beings, and the wrong actions which will continue to happen we be, that's who we are, that's the beauty. We're perfect because of imperfection. And they need to know that they are perfectly loved. But the imperfect action can be fixed. That's the same with staff, you know, sometimes you can do better, this is not acceptable. You can do better, I know that you can do better. So consider this considered that go away. We think your proposal, whatever we're working on, and let's have this discussion tomorrow. And when I do that, like now with the staff where you're trying to nudge them saying, No, your your your sense of self respect should not allow you to do a mediocre job can do better than that. It needs or takes a lot of a lot from you to say I know what you're capable of, to trust that they're truly capable of, you're not just pushing them off the edge to fail. Now you know that they're going to look much better. Be patient and not go, you know, this is wrong and hold the red pen as if you are a teacher in a school and subjects and things for people and allow them to try to reflect how is that different from others?

Thank you, sir. Listening to both you and Samiha. It's hard to think how we lost the link between mothering and leadership. Having said that, wait a minute. Did we lose it? I don't know. Did we actually lose it? Or did we or where we expected to start hiding it? That's what Rachel said last week, wasn't it? That that being forced to to hide the link between mothering and leadership? To use Rachel's words last week, it was it's almost asking women to deny a whole piece of themselves. A piece that that she she says has been probably the most life changing experience she's ever had, and in her view, is ever likely to have. So I don't know whether it's actually that we've lost the link or we've just been hiding it. Anyhow, I think Saba agrees with Rachel. Thank you Saba last word, to Samiha.

We're made to believe that our lives are so compartmentalised. And there are no similarities between those different compartments. But there is. And I think, for you to become in sync with yourself, and all the traits you bring to whichever role they play, you have to be able to zoom in into each of those boxes, but zoom out and look at yourself as a whole, because you are the container of all those boxes. And I don't think that you can live dual or, you know, three personalities you can't be, you can't pretend to be a great leader in the office when you are a horrible listener at home with your kids. So that kind of being in sync with myself is about being consistent in playing that leadership role. But you don't have to love sometimes and, you know, focus more on respect. And you do the opposite some other times. And that's the beauty of being a woman

Thank you, Rachel, Myrna, Samia and Saba. These have been two glorious episodes that have brought back an awful lot of thinking for me. As you listen to this episode, in particular, I shall be in Italy, on Lake Como not in the sun in the winter in February. I know that with a lot of people very cold and annoyed that we're not there in the summer. But attending won't be annoyed about anything will be so delighted to all be together all 24 of us who've been on this expedition for over a year now. Looking for the approach to leadership But that resonates with women. And we'll be bringing it all together. It's an extraordinary thought. quite extraordinary, challenging thought terrifying thought. Bellagio finishes on the Saturday, Saturday the 18th. So let me bring our next live session forward. How about on Sunday, the 19th of February, the day after our convening in Bellagio, how about I gather one or two of the members of the expedition who are still in Bellagio. And we do a glorious live session that afternoon, let's say five o'clock UK time. Five o'clock UK time. That would be fantastic. Join us for that live session. So it's this Sunday, this Sunday, five o'clock UK time. Join us and ask us all those questions. I doubt we'll have answers. Our heads will be so confused is a French word. When your head becomes boring. It's just so absolutely stuffed with so many things. Our heads will be boring. But we will love talking to you and picking up all your questions. So join us join us for that live five o'clock UK time. 90 into February. Can't wait lots of love Julia.

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