What if solving climate change starts with better conversations, not just better tech?

In this episode, I talk with Tessa Hartman, a climate anthropologist and facilitator, about why culture shapes how we perceive and respond to climate challenges. We explore how empathy, social norms, and smart design can unlock new ways of working together – even across deep divides.

🎙️ In this episode:

• What a “climate anthropologist” actually does
• How culture, identity, and worldview shape climate action
• The power of asking why in tough conversations
• UX design meets sustainability – making solutions people actually want to use
• Bridge-building between “opposing” groups
• Lessons from Norway’s first national Citizen Assembly on climate and wealth

🔗 Resources mentioned:

Tessa Hartman on LinkedIn

Klimaantropologen (in Norwegian)

The Future Panel / Citizen Assembly (English site)

Book: Humankind by Rutger Bregman

Climate designer Katie Patrick

Stories for the Future

Veslemøy’s Substack

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Subscribe and leave a review on Apple or Spotify – it helps more than you know!

Want to be a guest on Stories for the future: Beyond the Bubble? Send Veslemoy Klavenes-Berge a message on PodMatch.

You can always find more information about the podcast and my work on storiesforthefuture.com

What if the key to solving the climate crisis wasn't just science or policy, but culture, empathy and better conversations?

Welcome back to Stories for the Future.

I am, as always, Vesle moi, and in today's episode I'm joined by Tessa Hartmann.

She calls herself a climate anthropologist and she combines social science, UX design and a deep human curiosity to create climate solutions that actually work for people.

We'll dive into why culture shapes everything from how we experience climate change to the solutions we believe in.

And how building trust and asking why can change even the toughest conversations.

Whether you are deep into the energy.

Transition or just wondering how to connect across climate divides, this episode is definitely for you.

Let's get into it.

Welcome to Stories for the Future.

Tessa.

Thank you so much.

Thank you for having me.

You call yourself a climate anthropologist.

Can you start by telling us what that means?

Absolutely.

So I'm a social and cultural anthropologist.

That's my background, my education.

But I work solely on climate issues and sustainability issues and thus the climate anthropologist was born.

I was an anthropologist first, first and foremost, I like to say.

But later I've also added in user design and facilitation as sort of in my range that I work with.

How did you get there?

What kind of piqued your interest in that direction?

Did you have any, like, did you start out like that?

Or is it some kind of event that made you go into the climate direction, for instance?

Yeah, I started out interested in climate, like from the get go?

No, I think, you know, we built this really nice, streamlined stories.

Like in hindsight they're like, ah, this is what triggered it, this is what happened.

But I think reality is often much messier.

Yes, I know.

So I think studying anthropology you learn very quickly, sort of how radically different worldviews can be and how our realities are so much socially constructed when it comes to anything and everything.

So no, I wasn't.

I've always had an interest for climate and environment, but I wasn't an activist or that wasn't sort of a big part of my identity before really my university years.

But I wanted to work with something meaningful and so I wrote my thesis about how culture shapes how we think, act and speak about climate change and have just continued from there.

Really?

Yeah.

Oh, that is such an interesting topic.

And yes, we will get back to that.

But first, now you're based in Oslo, right?

And is that your main kind of target area or do you work locally, globally, nationally?

How is that mostly Norway?

Yes, to all of the above Norway, mostly Oslo, because of course, work happens a lot through connections and the spaces you are in.

And so Oslo is definitely my base, but I have worked on national projects as well and international one.

I've had the great pleasure of going both to Kenya and Malawi for field work related to projects.

And yes, I enjoy the variation a lot.

Yes.

So what you mentioned there, I'm so curious about this because I can imagine it has a lot to say where you live, where you grew up.

So how does or how do our social lives and culture affect the way.

That we deal with climate change?

In every way, I think, because I think culture, it influences, not only.

I usually say it influences both the causes, what we think causes climate change, and therefore what we think the feasible solutions are.

So it's not.

Climate change is a multifaceted crisis.

Right.

And so how we relate to it in many different ways.

And I usually use this model that kind of looks a little bit like an onion, where you have the person in the center and then you have all these layers of things that influence us and influence how we think.

And the first layer influences is our direct experience with the world, how we interact with it.

So if you live somewhere that's prone to forest fires, that will give you a certain experience of the world.

And if you live somewhere that's prone to floods, that will be a wholly different experience.

Right.

And then you have social layers, like your immediate friends and family, your wider network and their opinions about climate and sustainability and the world in general shape how we think.

We're very social creatures, so this, this means quite a lot to us.

And then we have our media landscape, the social bubbles, media bubbles that we find ourselves in also influence what we hear about and which ways we hear about the things going on in the world.

And that's both on a local and sort of global level.

So you have all these layers that interact with one another and that interact with you as a person.

And thus, you know, it's simplified to say that our culture influences us because of course, it's very many aspects to this.

But yes, that's how I like to imagine how sort of how we exist in the world.

We exist in relation to all of these things, and all of those layers influence how we see climate change.

Yeah.

So when you work, then if you.

Do you have examples, and you mentioned that you had been in Kenya, Malawi, do you have examples of where.

Knowing where people come from and how they think and their culture helps you or helps us create better climate solutions, kind of.

How do you approach it?

Absolutely.

It really depends on what we're working with.

Because, like, my job is twofold.

I would say, like the first part of my job is that I help people create solutions that work for the people they are for.

So the people that will be using said solution or the people that are impacted in some sort of way.

And then the second part of my job is that I create spaces and processes that lets people cooperate and create better solutions together.

So in some projects I have more of a research role, field work and research role, where I am learning and processing and other jobs.

I'm just purely a facilitator that facilitates people creating these solutions together.

Gotta remind me of the question.

Yeah.

For instance, if you look at Kenya, then I don't know if you worked with climate solutions there, but knowing about their culture, how would you approach a solution?

So, yeah.

And maybe also just nationally, just different parts of Oslo, how people like their culture or their upbringing or their anything influences how they will interact with a solution.

Yes.

And it's like, yes, this is not Kenya or Malawi specific, this is Norway specific too.

Right.

And also in every country you have subcultures and I know that's a big part of your journey.

Coming from an oil and gas background, which has its own set of norms and understandings about the world and ways of being.

And the spheres you move in more now have different narratives.

Yes.

Different ways of talking about these issues.

So you always gotta work with the people in the moment where they are and create spaces for them.

I also feel like my job is to pull out their knowledge and to sort of.

And there are lots of methods in both in social anthropology and UX design to do this, to make sure that you ask questions in a way and engage with people in a way that doesn't lead them to certain answer, but that leads you to understand where they're really coming from.

Yeah.

And I guess empathy has a lot to do with this because I remember when we talked earlier, I mentioned this story about.

So it has to do with the oil and gas industry and somebody leaving it and then suddenly you find yourself in a totally different.

A totally different pair of shoes, as I normally say it.

Like suddenly you see things from a totally different perspective and then talking to your old colleagues in oil and gas and you would talk about the same thing, but see totally differently.

You use like, you can even use the same language, but one word could mean a positive and a negative depending on which way you see it from.

You know what I mean?

Yes, absolutely.

So.

So I guess what I'm looking for is I talked to, I interviewed a person yesterday who was very much into diplomacy and she talked about how she, when she went into groups where they're really opposing views, how listening and using empathy and trying to understand people coming from different perspectives is really important.

Yes, absolutely.

My, my go to thing is to always be curious about the why.

You just got to keep asking why.

Not, not exactly like that, of course you're going to sound like a normal sane person having a conversation.

But always dig into why are people feeling and reacting in the ways that they do and sort of keep prodding at that.

And I think that's what leads us to have meaningful conversations.

People can often say that at the things that at the surface level seems very different from your own stance or people in a group who were working together.

And then if you take it at face value, that can be very unproductive.

I recently worked in a project where the discussion was about investment in green energy and sustainable transition and whether or not a lot of money should be invested in that nationally.

And so we did this exercise where people sort of had to rate themselves how much they were for or against these investments.

A lot of people were at the very much for.

And then most people were sort of in the middle, middle plus.

And then this is one man who's at a very strong no side, absolutely not side.

At face value, you can describe that.

Lots of reasons and meanings that I might personally hold myself.

But then we asked him, we asked him, why are you taking this stance?

And he says, well, also for context, he had a background from gas and oil industry, which again raises a lot of assumptions for people who work with climate change.

And we asked him why, why, why are you taking this stance?

And he says that I believe climate change is not a sort of issue that you can buy your way out of.

Right, yeah.

And that changes everything.

That changes everything.

That opens up a whole different discussion.

So if we, if we had launched into some sort of debate or discussion without knowing his reasons, without knowing his why, we wouldn't have gotten anywhere.

And the concern that you can't just throw money at climate change and expect it to solve itself is valid, of course.

So yeah, so those things always ask why and go for true understanding and empathy.

And then you can discuss like, I think empathy doesn't have to mean that you just automatically also have to agree with people, but you need to really understand where they're coming from if you ask to work together.

Yeah, true.

So true.

So you mentioned at the beginning there UX design.

Yes.

So the combination of UX design and climate change is really, really interesting, I think.

So how does making things more user friendly help with climate projects?

Because it all comes down to people, doesn't it?

It's our behaviors and our systems that are ultimately the problem.

That's what's causing this.

And so we have to create better systems and behaviors.

And I think we've seen this wave of a lot of really cool technological innovations and things that could help but just do not work for people and the way people work and interact with the world.

And I think that has to be the starting point for any solution.

Because if you make a great solution that people are not able to or not interested in using, there will be no behavioral change, there will be no shift.

It's sort of, it has requirement that people use it.

And thus I think, yeah, UX design has a lot to contribute to the data solution field.

I've been thinking about this for many years because I think it maybe five years ago now I was working in this, this incubator space and I remember there was this salad bar in the cafeteria or in the canteen and maybe mostly it was used by women or people having this, okay, I'm going to eat healthy.

But then I remember it was this Netflix documentary about the benefits of eating like greens or vegetarian.

It wasn't at all mentioned anything about the climate effects of eating meat.

It was only the health benefits and like athletes getting really stronger and all, all the like positive, maybe you can call it egocentric reasons for eating, stop eating meat.

And I just noticed that a lot of the, like the strong guys in the, in their workspace starting eating a lot more salad after that documentary.

And I was thinking, is that, do you think that it often has to be something that you can, you can be as idealistic as you want to, but when, if the solutions, as you said, if they become too difficult or too far from things that would actually benefit us, then it's really hard.

So do you see that?

Like, yeah, yeah, I think then again I'm going to say it's complicated.

I hate that that's my answer to everything, but here I go.

Let me explain.

But I think on the one hand, yes, I feel in a lot of like these climate spaces there is this emphasis that people have to do it for the climate and the planet and that they have to care.

And I think we just gotta accept that people are not, not everybody is gonna care.

And also just caring is not gonna get us anywhere.

You can have all the care in the world, but if that doesn't lead to any behavioral change.

Doesn't matter.

So if you find motivation elsewhere, if your motivation to eat more greens is that you wanna be healthy or you wanna become a buff guy, then that's great.

So also accepting all these other reasons to do sustainable behaviors, great.

I read this really great book that's about biking to work and why this man loves biking to work and it's all about his bike and how his relationship to his city and his neighborhood changed and how good it feels to have something so like that he can repair instead of his car.

He can have his bike.

And on the very last page of this book, he mentions climate change.

He was like, I did.

He did it on purpose.

And I believe that a lot of people might disagree here, but I truly believe that a planet and environmental friendly world is a human friendly world.

I think it's better for us in many ways.

The narrative often goes into all of the things we have to give up.

And it sounds like we're losing things, but I think really as societies and as cultures, we have much more to gain.

And it's not just this.

We have to sacrifice it for the climate and we'll just have to have to cope.

I think.

Yeah, a lot of these changes we are seeing also leads to better places for people and better.

Yes, yeah, systems for people.

But then it's the other because let me just loop back to what you were asking about.

Do these solutions have to be easy and do they have to play on some sort of.

On the ego and on what I want for me?

And I think sometimes in some ways yes, but also no.

I think we underestimate made people in that sense that I think we expect people to be more selfish than we really are.

I really enjoy this book Humankind by, if you have.

Yeah, I heard about it.

Yeah, I read it.

Yes.

And he debunks a lot of these theories that have been around for decades, classical psychological experiments.

And so that that led people to get this impression that just if you give people options, they will not choose the most altruistic one.

And yeah, debunked a lot of these theories and a lot of these experiments and shown how they were tinkered with or messed with or people admitted later that no, they didn't do them in the proper way.

And these things have really built up this narrative that we.

I think maybe people are drawn a little bit to the drama of it.

But I think, or I notice from my own work that what motivates us isn't necessarily connected to just ourselves.

And our benefits.

When I specifically design climate solutions, a lot of people automatically buy into the.

It has to be entertaining.

We have to gamify whatever solution we're going to make.

It has to basically be a game and it has to be fun all the time.

But it doesn't.

Like research shows that it doesn't.

We are into making good choices for the sake of making good choices.

Often it actually backfires.

If we try to reward people for quote, unquote, good behaviors, then they start paying too much attention to the awards and less of just the positive feeling that they would get from doing a good.

Making good choices just for the sake of making good choices.

That is quite a good motivator.

Our choices reflect the image we have of ourselves and our identities.

We like to think well of ourselves.

We like to make good choices.

And I think a lot of what UX design does and social anthropology also contributes with is making these choices easier.

Removing barriers where there's no need for them to be barriers.

A lot of it is systematic and that's hard to deal with as individuals.

Where can we lift away some of those hindering aspects?

But it doesn't mean that we have to pay people for making good environmental choices or give them direct rewards.

Yeah, I think.

Yeah.

So yes and no.

Yes, yes, exactly.

Yes and no.

I was thinking about this.

Have you heard of Katie Patrick?

I haven't, no.

She.

Oh, you should.

She's.

She's talking about a lot about like UX design and gamification when it comes to getting people to do the right things.

So I was just thinking about this example she had.

When it comes to.

If you're at like walking in nature, for instance, and instead of putting up the sign do not litter or do.

The example I think was do not remove stones from this path because.

Because they should stay where they are or something, instead of putting up that sign, you would say that most people do not remove stones from this path.

The same thing as in hotels, putting the sign that three out of four will not throw the towel on the floor.

So normalizing the good behavior instead of saying you shouldn't do this.

Yes.

Right.

There's something there.

Yeah.

And that's not so much full gamification as just nudging, right?

Yes, nudging, exactly.

Yeah, true.

So that's kind of the same thing I truly believe in when it comes to the energy transition.

Normalizing that we're moving away from fossil fuels, like getting people to hear all the stories about people who, who don't want to do it.

Anymore and are changing, I don't know, behavior or careers or anything.

Just seeing that.

Yes.

Maybe I should do that too.

Yeah.

Very interesting topic, by the way.

So.

And you should read Katie Patrick.

Yes, she's great.

Yes.

So another thing we talked about before was this like this bridge building and we touched on it when it comes to this, like, very, like opposing views.

And if you're in a room, how do you get people to actually listen to each other instead of having this argument wars?

So again, I'm going back to my MySpace where you are.

So when you, when you hear an argument, you're so engaged in your head by preparing what you're going to say to that person instead of actually trying to listen to what he or she is saying.

So how do you, when you, when you're doing your facilitation, how do you work with groups like that?

You said something about the why, of course, and like the listening.

But do you have any other tools?

Absolutely.

I think you say focus on the why, but I think I'm the type of facilitator.

I really like to have kind of strict exercises that forces people to, for example, to actually listen.

Right.

So how do we create these dynamics that actually make people listen?

I think.

Yeah, I think it's a combination of both planning out these discussions very well.

So to make sure that while some people are talking, like when group A is talking, group B will take notes and questions and sort of distract them from exactly what you're saying that they're just thinking about.

What am I going to answer?

Yes.

And also the framing around it is very important that in my work is often the case.

Like, we're all here because we want to find a better solution than a better system than what we currently have.

And so to really set that as a shared mission, as a shared understanding, like, we're all different and that's okay.

You're allowed to be different.

But real wants to get somewhere.

Right.

So also focus on in which ways we are similar, not just in which ways are we different.

I think it's very important.

And yeah, we have somewhat of a cultural problem in our debate culture.

I think that our goal is always to win, convince.

To win, yes, to win.

To convince other people that our stance is correct.

And we know this.

We know that clubbing people over the head with lots of arguments is not.

That's not how people change their mind.

Unfortunately, it's not that simple.

And I also feel like people.

As if people are allergic to saying that.

Actually, I was wrong and I Changed my mind.

How often does that happen in debates where we actually allow ourselves such unnecessary social shame that comes while it shouldn't be.

It should be like, you know what?

I've learned something from this discussion and I think that's also something we should start normalizing.

Yeah.

And I know people talking about this and cancel culture and that's a whole different discussion.

Right.

It's like the fact.

Yeah.

Allowing people to grow and change their minds because that's what we want.

Yeah.

Yes.

Because it's always you're taking a stand for, against something and then you have to stay there.

And actually just politicians who change their minds are often seen as weak.

So it's.

Yes, I agree, it shouldn't be like that.

So if you're, let's say the extreme, then talking to people who are strongly disagreeing on their fewer and fewer, of course, climate change, if they're strongly disagreeing on climate change, what works and what doesn't.

And maybe you said it already that getting people to just change their minds is almost impossible.

But how then to.

Yeah.

Find some common ground, perhaps agree on what you agree on.

Yeah, those are good starting points.

Yeah.

What works?

And now I'm pulling on a lot of different methodologies and approaches here, so it will always depend.

But the way people change their minds is basically always social.

You have some people who are really into finding the information and doing the reading and then turn and then they learn something and they change their minds.

But for most of us, we learn through other people.

We learn through talking with other people.

So if we can have conversations.

My mind always goes to if you have a really strong sort of climate denier, that's typically like an older uncle.

Isn't that the stereotype?

Yes, that's what you hear.

Yes.

Older uncles.

And to be able to not just write them off and meet them with this debate culture, but ask about the whys.

And then I think people are very perceptible to, how should I put it?

Like to change by example.

Leading by example.

You see this a lot like when your friends, your family, your neighbors start changing their behavior, it becomes more normalized and the sort of barrier to it seems much lower.

I, after, after, I mean knowing for a really long time that really I should be eating more plant based.

But I was for a long time at the, at a stage where I didn't feel like I, I want to label myself as a vegetarian.

It felt like a big step.

Yes.

And suddenly I was having, in university, I was having a social meetup with friends Friends and we were planning food and it turned out that 8 out of 10 of the friends that were coming were vegetarians.

And then I was like, well, what am I doing here?

Like, they.

They can do it and so can I, you know, so this social aspect, you see this with solar panels.

Once somebody in a neighborhood gets social solar panels, they pop up more like their neighbors.

Again, we're very social animals.

So I think we shouldn't underestimate that.

And also I think it's a big part of it is knowing each other.

I was recently made aware of this, that we notice that we have less spaces where we meet people with very different opinions, like actually physically in the world.

And when we do so we still, of course we have.

In Norway, Norwegian listeners will know that, you know, we have this do not culture where it's where people volunteer, basically, so volunteer for some common project in their neighborhood or at their kids schools or.

And.

And we still do this and then we still come together, but we don't stay for the coffee part afterwards.

Yeah.

And in this situation.

So in the situations where we actually have a chance to be exposed to different people, we rush through them and we're only there to sort of do business, talk shop or.

And then we move on.

And it's.

I think the relationships are built in the.

Lingering in the.

Yes.

And then if that's what creates these bonds where you know people and you get along with people, even though you have completely different values or stances, you need to have a relationship to then be able to have the harder conversations and the harder.

And I think we skip that part.

We don't create enough space for just space and time for relationships to be built, communities to be built, which is, I think, the very foundation for these things.

Yes, yes.

So true.

I was thinking when you talked about the Duke dad.

So for people not in Norway, as you said, it's when people come together and it could be where you live, like in a building or in.

What I'm thinking about is in the kindergarten, when my kids were smaller, I remember that those dougnads that we had in the kindergarten, maybe twice a year or something, they were so good for connecting with people.

And their people stayed for the coffee and the hot dogs because we brought our kids as well and they want to just stay and play.

It was the best place to connect and get to actually know people because you were working side by side.

You weren't just sitting at a table, you were doing something.

And it was really easy to connect and to communicate and agree we're having fewer and fewer of those arenas where we actually do stuff like that.

Absolutely.

I was just thinking.

It made me think now that I recently had the pleasure of working with a citizen panel.

Yes.

Citizen panels are where random citizens get selected and it's stratified.

So you have people from all different regions, from all different ages and backgrounds and education levels, and they get pulled together and are set on a mission to give recommendations on a complicated issue.

We just have had two national citizens assemblies here in Norway.

And how this process works is really interesting because they have to spend a lot of time together to learn about this topic and then talk together, discuss, learn from each other's experiences and each other's takes, and then come with a set of shared recommendations.

So you have this group of random citizens that have completely different takes, and at the end, after a couple of days or sessions, depending on how big this process is, they mostly agree.

I think it's really magical.

Yes.

And a lot of time that the time spent working together is also to build the trust and connection that we just talked about.

And at one of the.

We had an event where the participants, they reflected back on their experiences going through such a process, and one of them said, like, yeah, you know, I got to know this other participant over, you know, lunches and coffee breaks and we hadn't really worked together.

And then, you know, we became friends.

And only later I learned that we really disagree on very fundamental topics.

But then I already liked him.

Yes, exactly.

Yeah, very good point.

Yeah, that is so interesting.

So, yeah, I'm curious about that citizen panel.

How does that.

How what.

What are the results?

So what will it lead to?

Like you.

And you said there was.

How many people were randomly chosen.

About.

We ended with about 54.

I think it's typical for a National assembly to be between 50 and 60 people.

Right.

In a country that's Norway's size.

Right.

And then.

Then they're all ages, all different backgrounds, industries, so.

And then they had to.

There were questions related to climate or different topics indirectly.

The topic was the Norwegian.

Norway's.

I want to say welfare, but it's not true.

It's Norway's riches which ties very much to the wealth.

Well, the wealth created from the oilfield and how to use it.

How to use it in a way that's best for ourselves, like current generations, coming generations, future generations, and the world in general, like, globally.

So it's a huge question, lots to work with.

But climate change definitely was also something that was addressed both in.

Yeah.

Seeing where this wealth comes from and why are we invested and so forth.

So, and the results, I mean, this citizen panel now, assembly, Citizen assembly, people use a little bit of both words here.

Often they are sort of.

They are asked for by some sort of political body and then they will also immediately sort of have the power to follow up on said recommendations.

This one, however, is initiated by civil society organizations.

So there's a list of seven that's on the website.

I'm afraid that if I start listing them, I will totally forget one, but seven different organizations.

So they sort of banded together to ask these questions.

They wanted to know what completely sort of normal people, normal Norwegians actually think about this.

We often hear about the oil fund that is, you know, for.

It is for Norwegian citizens and for our futures.

And I think it has been lacking a little bit to ask Norwegian people what they want, which is quite vital to this whole discussion.

So that.

Were there any surprising results, would you say.

Yes, well, no, of course.

I was part of the whole process, so I feel like I got to see them develop.

But it is maybe surprising to some people that citizens often, and in this case also, they want much more stronger, some would say more radical changes than politicians typically suggest.

Citizens are much more willing and ready for this change.

And that's also something we very much saw with.

This is the Future panel.

Yeah, that's interesting.

Yeah.

And I definitely recommend going to the website if you want to, because they came with 19 recommendations and I can't do them justice in this short time here.

But on Frontitspanelle Mo, or the Future panel, what did we trans?

How did we.

So it is in English as well.

So people.

It is in English as well.

The Citizen assembly for Norway's Future is the English recommendation.

Right, Right.

If you Google that.

And then I just read the recommendations.

And also the part of it is also that for the.

That assembly was to set a course for where we were heading.

Not just specifically.

This is.

This is what we should do here and this is what we should.

But also just like, what.

What.

What are the values that we share as a people?

Yeah, very interesting read.

Definitely good.

Yes, yes.

I'll put the links in the show notes.

That's.

That's interesting, I think also for people outside of Norway.

Yes.

For my own work, I have seen.

And this is that this has to do with the way that we speak about things.

Because, you know, just as a very easy example, look at your LinkedIn feed and my LinkedIn feed, it's full of.

When I look at it, I Can think that, oh, everybody are consumed with the same things as I am.

Climate, sustainability, the future.

But of course they're not.

It's all the algorithms.

And that is kind of an image of the bubbles, I think.

So I saw that so clearly moving from one, I would say bubble and in oil and gas to a very different bubble and then seeing how like moving across those bubbles.

My, my LinkedIn feed was completely wrong for a while.

You know, I had just like the totally wrong network and people are interested in very different things and seeing things from different sites.

So my long, long intro to the question, but I guess it is how can we move away from speaking to the choir and like kind of try to burst these bubbles a little bit.

And the, the tagline for this season of the podcast is beyond the bubble.

So that's what I'm trying to do.

How can we get them to, to bubble jump burst them or just like cross these bridges and actually, yeah, as we talked about before, listen and move beyond the choir.

Do you think hard?

One very important question, very important question.

And I don't know if I have the answer.

I think part of it is that it's important to allow people to like everybody to have a little bit of ownership over these issues and the solutions.

Of course there's a lot of a sense of like you have to be all in or it's not enough or you're not really, or you're not really part of the discussion or you're not.

I think a lot of people get that sense also because we talk a lot about the very like individual behavioral changes when it comes to climate change.

And so we make it very personal.

I think we should rather focus on sort of the bigger systemic issues a little bit more and not make it so personal that if you're not, you know, people say not the perfect activist, if you're not living the perfect climate friendly life, then you'll be criticized for it.

So yeah, just dropping that barrier a little bit and be like, yes, we need old people on board wherever they are, wherever, whatever they work with.

And they don't, they don't have to be climate exports or sustainability consultants.

Right.

We have many of those.

And I think the real superpower is with people who have completely different jobs moving completely different bubbles and making sure that they feel empowered enough that they matter in this conversation, even though that's not, this is not sort of their sole focus.

We need to think about climate and sustainability on all levels, everywhere.

And so yeah, we have to be more accepting in that way.

Does that make any sense?

Yes, it does.

And I think what you said about not.

It's not all or nothing.

It's not either or black or white.

You have this spectrum and all the nuances.

So I often compare it to running, you know, when, like years ago, I've been.

Been like calling myself a runner for many years now.

But in my, like, previous life, I kind of just looked at people running like, I will.

And that's not me.

It's kind of the identity thing, you know?

Yes, that's not me.

But then starting to realize that you can be a runner by running just five minutes around, like, your house or go.

You don't have to run a marathon before breakfast.

So it's like there's so many versions of this.

And I, for myself, I actually started to maybe just change the wording a little bit.

So instead of always talking about sustainability and climate, I started talking about the future.

So, like the, the stories for the future, because it can be easier for people to identify with.

We all want a good future.

So you don't, as you said, you don't have to go all in or on the climate or sustainability or green party or.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

And yeah, I relate to that a lot.

Going back to my vegetarians.

Yes, exactly.

Having trouble labeling myself as such.

And then when I allowed myself to just try it for a while and it turns out it was much easier than I ever thought it would be.

And still now I'm.

I call myself a vegetarian because it's the easy sort of go to label and I will have a cheat meal like once a month, a couple weeks.

Um, because I know that the 99% of the time when I'm a vegetarian is much more helpful.

And that one sort of alternative meal where I will eat meat doesn't cancel out what I otherwise do.

And if that's what keeps sort of this positive behavior going, then rather that than being very strict with oneself, being very, very strict with each other too.

Because that doesn't create lasting change.

Yeah, exactly.

Yes, I agree.

So before we wrap up, one thing.

I've been thinking about this the last few days because I had so many interviews these days and because I talk to so many people through the podcast, I get so hopeful about the future because I see so many, many fantastic people who are working so hard to change things and make it better.

So my question to you, what brings you hope for the future people?

Is that an easy answer?

No, it's good.

People give me hope for the future.

I have a great privilege of working with people who want to see good change in the world.

So I think that's very, very similar to what you're seeing.

Yes.

So that gives me hope.

And then, yeah, see also such initiatives such as citizen assemblies, but also just working with citizens in sort of co creation projects or what's the phrase I'm looking for in like participation.

Yeah, some participation projects.

There's also like in these situations where I have a chance to talk to people and learn about what matters to them.

It also gives me a lot of hope, a lot of inspiration that people are much better than what we give them credit for, I think.

Yes, yes, that's a really good place to end, I think.

So where.

Yes, so where, if people are interested in your work and maybe, yeah, your facilitation or the services that you provide, where do they find you the easiest way?

Absolutely.

My website's only in Norwegian, but as you can tell, English works just fine as well.

My website is Klima Ontopologen.

Yes.

And otherwise my name's probably written in the caption here somewhere.

If you Google find me.

Yeah, and LinkedIn is also a good place, I guess.

LinkedIn is a great place.

I'm technically on Instagram, but not very actively, so please.

Yes, LinkedIn and emails are the place to go.

Great.

Thank you so much for this.

Thank you.

This was super interesting.

This is a topic I could talk about a lot and I'm really happy that people like you are out there doing this work.

So thank you.

So what did you take away from that conversation?

Tessa reminded us that climate change isn't just about emissions.

It's about people, beliefs and the stories we live by.

Check out the links in the show notes to learn more about Tessa, her work and also the Citizen assembly for Norway's future, which is very, very interesting.

And if you're curious about more stories like this or the work I'm doing around climate, the energy transition and other future related topics, head over to storiesforthefuture.com or subscribe to my newsletter at vklavenness.substack.com.

As always, thanks for listening.

Take care and I will see you next time.

Sam.