In this episode of What the Health, host John Salak discusses the complexities and misconceptions surrounding sustainable living with Kenny Barnes, Program and Outreach Coordinator for Sustainability Matters. They explore what sustainability truly means, the impact of individual actions, and how systemic change through voting and policy can make a significant difference. 

Kenny also highlights practical steps individuals and families can take to start incorporating sustainability into their lives, focusing on areas like reducing food waste, composting and making eco-friendly choices in the kitchen. The conversation underscores the importance of education, advocacy and community involvement in building a sustainable future.

00:30 Introduction to Sustainable Living

00:48 The Politicization of Sustainability

01:14 Challenges and Judgments in Sustainable Practices

02:19 Introducing Kenny Barnes from Sustainability Matters

03:14 Defining Sustainability

05:55 Practical Aspects of Sustainability

08:56 Generational Perspectives on Sustainability

10:59 Incorporating Sustainable Practices

19:42 The Role of Government and Organizations

23:09 Global Perspectives on Sustainability

24:48 Misconceptions About Sustainability

27:08 Optimism for the Future

29:24 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

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Sustainability, even in its simplest form, has obviously become politicized. But even beyond this surrounding hubbub, questions surge over the effectiveness of local, state, and national efforts. What can be done to improve these practices? How can individuals and families start living sustainably? And is it a matter of all in or don't even bother?

Then, of course, there's another layer to this unsettling mix by way of the harsh judgments delivered by some sustainability warriors on those not totally involved. This only tends to breed resentment and guilt. What seems like a natural win win for the planet and people has become anything but. These issues, of course, don't mean we should give up on living sustainably.

But more guidance is required on how to start and maintain this approach to life for individuals and families and communities large and small. Fortunately, WellWell is bringing in an expert who can lay out a roadmap that gets people moving in the right direction in order to build a sustainable drive that makes a real cumulative difference.

Keep listening.

So as promised, this episode of what the health is about really connecting to the world, in a practical way, and we're centering that on the concept of sustainability, which is a hot topic. And we are bringing in someone who knows an awful lot about sustainability and how to incorporate and what are the challenges.

And that's why we're talking to Kenny Barnes. He is the program and outreach coordinator for Sustainability Matters. So Kenny, thank you very much for joining us and welcome to what's the health.

[00:02:33] John Salak: Great. And I want to let everybody know that Sustainability Matters is headquartered in, the Northern Shenandoah Valley and the Piedmont region of Virginia, but Kenny is not in either of those locations. Kenny is sitting near Grant Lake, California. That's correct. Right.

[00:02:52] John Salak: Okay, all right, fair enough. So, Kenny's spread of sustainability, spreading the good word, goes far beyond Virginia. Sustainability is a hot topic. We know that. We hear it all the time. It's in political discourse. It's in personal discourse. It's in a lot of different areas. But, Well, just because we hear words, we don't always understand exactly what they mean or what we assume they mean.

So can you tell us what your definition of sustainability is and what you think maybe most people assume it really means?

Pretty much everything we use, everything we need depends either directly or indirectly on the natural world, and sustainability is really all about protecting and preserving that relationship. Whether it be social, economic, or really any facet of our life, sustainability is really all about fulfilling the needs of our current generation, without sacrificing the needs and wants of future generations.

And for other people, I think they have pretty similar definitions of it. Whether they actually think directly about it all the time, I think is different. I think a lot of the times when they hear sustainability, they just associate it with things they see in the news, whether that be climate change or recycling or pollution.

So I think they think about all the different facets of sustainability, but perhaps. We don't do a good enough job communicating how all those facets are interrelated.

[00:04:53] Kenny Barnes: I think historically, yes, I think in America there's been a lot of information that kind of puts the onus on sustainability, conservation, and pollution on individuals. So a lot of the time I think people have grown up with the understanding that doing things like recycling, is great for the environment, which it is, and doing things like riding their bike or carpooling.

And these are definitely aspects of sustainability, but I think in America we have kind of missed the note on sustainability in that. We tie it very much directly to climate change and in the climate change world, there are a lot of people who alienate large portions of the population because they come on very strong with their beliefs and kind of telling people what to do.

But with sustainability, it's really all about incorporating everybody into a system that works for us all. It's not about making a ton of sacrifices into your regular life so you can be a better steward of our planet. It's about creating systems and putting policies into place to where we can all live our fullest lives without sacrificing the natural world around us.

So do you think families are adopting the sustainability philosophy, whether they practice it or not, is that growing, not growing, and there are all sorts of stats that show all sorts of different things about this.

I think the issue comes in, kind of matching that desire with the actual behavior changes. But in terms of general awareness, I think we do a pretty good job and I think people are just becoming more aware of the impact that they have. Like I said, it's really all about just taking that awareness and that knowledge and that education and actually turning it into behavior change.

And that behavior change is really the hardest part of make, of sustainability.

Think people are overwhelmed? by trying to put sustainability practices into effect? What are the other challenges? Is it just not easy? Or is it just like, Oh yeah, I'm recycling. Does it do any good? That sort of thing.

So pretty much every single thing we do. Has some negative impact. And I think that's very overwhelming for people because a lot of the times they don't really know where to start. They get bombarded with things like you should be carpooling. You should be taking public transportation. You shouldn't be eating meat.

And then these people are like, okay, well, I live 40 miles away from my job. There's no public transportation offered to me. And my kid really likes cold cut sandwiches for lunch. These are things that are really hard to sacrifice and problems that we don't necessarily have answers for. So I think that feeling of just overwhelmingness debilitates a lot of people, to a point where they don't even really get started trying to apply these in different aspects of their life.

But I don't think it's from a lack of desire. I really think it's just from, a lack of systems in place, and a lack of knowledge and education about how we can easily change those systems to make them work for us.

I don't mean to lump that all older people, which I'm sadly part of now, may not be as an abrasive of sustainable practices as younger people, but is that still a problem? And I'm not going to go into everything we discussed before, but you did tell me you came from a house that would get a new Christmas tree every four years, a fake Christmas tree.

So, that's something that we see there. We see it in my, family. My daughter just graduated with a degree in, ecological, environmental policies and sustainability, that sort of thing. So every time I turn around and I'm running the water, she turns it off, which is very frustrating.

But, how much does a generational pull, affect our ability to embrace sustainable practices?

Obviously there are a lot of studies that show that people in Gen Z. Millennials are much more worried about climate change. And I think that makes sense. We're gonna be the ones that are alive and dealing with a lot of these consequences, whereas people that are older don't really have those considerations.

They have loved ones they have to think about, but those problems are literally when they are no longer going to be on the earth. And there's also just kind of that whole idea that it's hard or you can't teach a dog new tricks. And for people that are older, they have grown up accustomed to living in these systems that do not support our planet.

They're used to filling up their tank with gas, and driving a car. They don't want to use electric vehicles necessarily. A lot of people tie recycling very, very closely to sustainability. Younger generations don't really see recycling as a great option. They just want to mitigate the plastic waste before they even have it.

So there are differences like that generationally. But I think by and large, it's not really age that separates us on these things. I think a lot of the times it's just kind of our own, either political affiliations, the information that we're given, more so than age.

[00:11:19] Kenny Barnes: I think it really comes down to three main categories. The first is just voting. There's no way around it. Climate change and sustainability is a political topic in America, and the people we elect to office, have more impact than any one individual outside of office can have. Outside of that, you can also advocate and educate.

That's something that we really focus on here at Sustainability Matters, is just teaching people ways they can practice sustainability easily. Encourage people to volunteer for local organizations advocating for conservation. Attend workshops and webinars to learn more about specific topics, and share what you learn with your family and friends.

Since I've started caring about sustainability, the effect that it's had on my friends and my family, I mean, it's honestly hard to put into words just the change that one individual person can have on their circle.

So advocate and educate other people is another huge one. And then the third main category really just comes down to individual behavior change, take a look in the mirror and assess and look for ways for you to improve. That's not necessarily about self judgment and feeling bad about what you buy or how you operated in the past or might operate in the future.

It's really all just about getting information, about your individual impact and finding ways to improve. It can be very overwhelming to start on a sustainability journey since it touches, all aspects of our life, there are people who really care about native plants in terms of sustainability, people who care about plastic use, people who care about greenhouse gas emissions, and the list goes on and on and on.

So, for individuals and families, the thing that I always encourage them to do is really just start with one main focus, or even just one room at a time, and try and be sustainable in there.

It's a matter of saying, Hey, how do we deal with this issue or what do you need to know? For somebody saying, okay, yeah, I want to lead a more sustainable life. What does that mean for somebody specifically? And I know it may vary by individual and it, somebody maybe can't change their world entirely.

Is it a matter of recycling? But I suspect it goes beyond that. It's a matter of composting. What do we do on our lives? If you're in an urban environment to lead a more sustainable life, is it purchase choices, whatever it may be? How do we begin to guide people in that direction?

look for eco friendly alternatives to that. You can stock up on silicone baggies so you don't have to buy single use plastic baggies anymore. You can buy reusable beeswax wraps instead of plastic wrap. You can go with glass Tupperware instead of plastic. You can, shop for things like dish soap, beans, coffee, and other stuff like that at refill stores so you can just take your own glass jars and you're not producing any more packaging.

And of course, there are also a ton of other aspects in the kitchen where you can practice sustainability. You can look for ways to reduce your meat consumption and eat a more plant based diet. Meat and dairy, especially beef, consumes a ton of land and water and just emits a ton of methane, which is, terrible.

pretty much the worst greenhouse gas that we have. So even though a hamburger tastes great, maybe you go with a veggie burger every once in a while, just to mitigate that impact. You don't have to just say, okay, I care about the environment. I'm going vegan now. That would be great, but it's also very hard to sustain that change if you aren't practiced in cooking a plant based diet.

You can also consider food waste, like I talked about earlier. Americans discard 120 billion pounds of food per year, which is about 325 pounds per person. So, that's almost a pound of food per day we're throwing away individually. And that's about 40 percent of the U. S. food supply.

And while a lot of the times we can blame things with climate change on corporations, 43 percent of that waste is actually coming from households. So that's something that individuals really are in. We have the power to actually change that. And again, that's not like a blame game. All of us have bought those salad packets in plastic that go bad before we throw them away. Everybody is guilty of that. Everybody lets bananas go brown, they say they're gonna make a banana bread, and they never actually do. They have leftovers and they don't actually eat them.

The sad thing is that all of that stuff ends up in the landfill. Roughly 24 percent of all solid waste in landfills is simply food that was good at one point that we just don't eat in time. And when it's there, it's trapped under heaps of trash, it doesn't get oxygen, undergoes anaerobic decomposition, which is essentially just a fancy way of saying it doesn't do it right.

So it ends up just releasing a ton of methane, a greenhouse gas 28 times more powerful at trapping heat in the atmosphere than CO2. So it's really just food waste is kind of the biggest impact humans can have, on the impact. So if people can find ways to reduce their waste and just compost what they have, that's really a great, great starting point for, I think, a lot of families.

To promote composting in urban environments. So she, she's a, yeah, she's a fanatic composter.

That's point. And as you mentioned, the kitchen is a great place to focus. Not just on composting but on some of those other aspects you mentioned. And it's not an all or nothing approach, it's sort of a movement approach.

Can you do more in this area versus you have to do everything at once? Is that a fair assessment?

I have solar. My batteries are able to charge from my driving. So it's really all about trade offs. There's nobody that's doing anything perfectly because we don't have systems in place for people to do it perfectly. Like if you go to the grocery store and you want to eat, you are going to be buying something in a single use plastic.

There's no way where we can be all or nothing in sustainability. And by and large, it's really not about A few people practicing zero waste or emissions reductions perfectly. It's about a bunch of people practicing it imperfectly. And that's how we're really going to have, systemic change, and a sustainable change.

They're saying, Hey, these practices are broken. Are there ways to quantify the payback of what we may be doing in the kitchen or individually. So, if people want to know if they're really having an impact or how do we quantify it because we're a nation of win and lose.

But at the end of the day, I don't really think in most instances that impact or payoff is really, the importance of the story. It's all about the feeling and effect that it has on you and the people around you. I've seen stats that like 71 percent of all greenhouse gas emissions since 1998 have come from like only 100 companies.

And there's only so much that like individuals can do to really change that, but what individuals do have the power to do is change their own behavior and influence those around them. If you start practicing sustainability, you'll probably notice a decrease in your spending. You'll probably be taking out the trash less.

If you plant natives as part of your sustainability, you'll probably see more pollinators in your yard. So things like that. You can quantify it, but I also think it's important to just see how you feel and see how people are reacting in the way around you because at the end of the day that's what's going to create the snowball effect for more and more people to start caring.

It's educating, it's advocating, it's walking the walk more than it is about like doing all these things to get a number back to feel like you've achieved something at least personally, when I finish one of those salad packets, I just get such a feeling of satisfaction.

Because I know how bad it is to not finish it. I know that I haven't wasted any money. And I think once people start to actually seek out that feeling, they'll realize that it's a really good feeling and one that can make you feel just as good as buying more things.

And I know it's coordinated. I know it's interconnected.

Yeah. As a non profit here at Sustainability Matters, we try and fill the role of education and awareness as well. For other non profits, they may focus on lobbying and working with local, state, and federal governments. But I think at the end of the day, it's really all about figuring out what skills and abilities we have.

Because all of us differ in those. And finding ways to use your skills and abilities to leverage it in people. to inspire positive change in the world of climate action. But at the end of the day, the burden of really slowing and hopefully reversing the effects of climate change, those all really do come down to like, federal governments and corporations.

Not to get political, but like, one candidate in the upcoming election is talking about massive tax incentives and regulatory favors to big oil companies for supporting his campaign. I can use as many reusable silicone baggies as I want, but if the powers that be aren't taking those necessary steps to really mitigate that pollution and the greenhouse gas emissions, there's only so much that individuals can do.

And that's why when I talked about things that individuals can do, voting was the top of the list. You can change your behavior a lot, but really the policies in place and corporations, that's where we're really going to see systemic change that can change our world for the better.

So you can come up with 12 soundbites that sound great, in terms of supporting sustainability or supporting big oil or drilling or whatever you want. Where do you, where would you direct people to say, Hey, here's a non partisan, uh, soundbite view of policy, uh, per candidate, per government, per, you know, state or regional governments.

So I think it's really just about educating yourself and not taking the easy way out. And just read stuff from both sides of the, political aisle. It's not good, um, just to have a completely one sided view of anything. You should be reading things that you disagree with, um, because that will help inform you.

That will help, inform, the arguments you make. You can know counter arguments that people are going to make that you can rebuff in the future. But I think by and large, it's really, Don't take anything at face value, do your own research. Just because somebody is a Democrat doesn't mean they're going to be staunchly for the environment.

There are still a lot of Democrats who put policies in place that are pretty anti, environment. So it's really all about just educating yourself, to make the most informed decision that you can. And of course, sustainability isn't the thing that's going to be the number one topic for everybody in the public.

Like political scheme, there's other economic factors and social factors and things like that. So it's really balancing those and figuring out what makes the most sense for you.

[00:23:32] Kenny Barnes: Yeah, I think it's definitely true. And I think there's a few reasons for that. One of the first ones is that just energy and gas there is just more expensive than it is in the US. A gallon of gas is going to cost people in Europe almost twice what it's going to cost them in America. So I think that all that discourages them from doing it.

But I think the big thing is really just attitudes about climate change. In America, we have had big oil companies like Exxon running essentially misinformation campaigns for decades. That successfully convinced a large portion of the population that climate change wasn't really real and it was not something that we had to worry about.

So here in America, we have portions of the population who strongly believe that climate change is real and are fighting for it. And another portion of the population who just doesn't believe it's real at all. And in Europe, there is a much more homogenous culture. Climate change is not really a politicized topic or controversial.

It's just kind of a fact that most people accept and are willing to try and, improve upon. And there's also, I think, better infrastructure in Europe. A lot of the time. I've only been there a couple of times myself and definitely visited the cities, but there were just things like bike lanes and, It was easier for people to walk to the grocery store and bring it back to their house.

So a lot of that stuff is infrastructure and kind of how we structure our society, which makes it hard for, large portions of America to really practice it in the same way.

[00:25:04] Kenny Barnes: I would say that a couple of the biggest misconceptions are first that sustainability and climate action are for liberals and young people. That's not true. Sustainability and climate change is for everybody. It affects us all and I think all of us need to be involved in it if we're really going to have an impact.

And I think the second biggest misconception is that, Sustainability and individual behavior change won't really have an impact because corporations are the ones that are doing so much of this pollution. And I think that's really demotivating for people because they can do it perfectly, but if PepsiCo continues to produce bottled water and bottled sodas, there's only so much we can do.

But I think it actually is true that individuals can have a massive impact. I think that is a massive misconception. This past March, a report actually just came out examining data from 430 different studies, to see which factors most heavily influenced people's environment related behavior.

And it was honestly pretty fascinating, providing data and facts ranked last, only 3. 5 percent behavior change, which I think is a reflection of kind of where we are in America. Emotional appeals and personal commitment came in respectively at 10 and 11 percent behavior change. But the thing that inspired the most environment related behavior change was just social comparison at 14.

5%. Simply observing what other people doing and then mimicking it drove more environment related behavior change than like financial incentives. Just an example of that. If you install solar on your house, the likelihood of additional solar installations increased by 50 percent within a half mile radius.

So we see people doing it. We realize that we can too. And it really creates that snowball effect because at the end of the day, I keep talking about changing systems and creating systems that work for us all, but systems are just made up of individuals. So in order to change systems, you got to change the minds of individuals.

And the way we do that is, By changing our individual behavior and by inspiring other people in our circle to change their behavior. And eventually it really does create a snowball effect that can just reach more and more people and eventually grow into a movement that can't really be ignored by the powers that be.

[00:27:27] Kenny Barnes: I am optimistic. And I think we all should be optimistic because if we just think it's not going to work, it probably isn't going to work. At Sustainability Matters. One of our slogans is seriously making sustainability fun. So we try and have a positive outlook on all of this, and I mean, even in just the year and a half, two years that I've been interested in sustainability, I've seen such a massive growth in awareness and education on the topic.

And while we are lagging behind Europe, maybe 10 or 15 years, they were having some of these discussions. We're starting to have the discussions now, and we can see that Europe has improved. They have reduced their greenhouse gas emissions. So, America, I think, is on their way to doing that.

It might take a little bit longer, but I think, by and large, a large portion of society recognizes that this isn't something we can continue to ignore. And as younger people continue to age up, and get into more positions of power, , I think we'll continue to see people, Changing policies that reflect, caring about the environment and caring about sustainability more than just, making a profit.

[00:28:36] Kenny Barnes: That sounds about right.

Thank you so much. We are going to flag, of course, the website, but can you give us your website link so people can go there and help begin educate themselves.

But a lot of like just easy steps that you can take to, start practicing sustainability as an individual and in your family.

[00:29:22] Kenny Barnes: Thank you so much, John.

Now signing up is easy and free. Just visit us at WellWellUSA. com. Go to Milton's Discounts at the top menu bar, and the sign up form will appear. Signing up will just take seconds, but the benefits can last for years. So, what's the bottom line? Well, practicing sustainability isn't a political decision or statement.

Rather, it is common sense. Why wouldn't we want to safeguard the Earth's resources, reduce pollution, protect the environment, and maybe save some money? Getting started also doesn't have to represent an all consuming change that disrupts all aspects of a person's life. Starting can be relatively simple and focused.

As noted, a great place to begin is in the kitchen, incorporating small steps on recycling and food use that alone can have a big impact. Carpooling, using public transportation, even riding a bike or walking whenever possible is another way to engage. Composting in urban, suburban, and rural areas is an extremely doable step that gets people headed in the right direction.

Education is also critical. In order to find out what makes sense in each particular circumstance, whether that involves an individual, family, community, or business. Ultimately, it's It's just as important not to get overwhelmed by demands that aren't practical or possible that will only deflate everyone involved.

Successful sustainability, after all, is a community effort that has to involve individuals, neighborhoods, businesses, and governments to make a lasting difference. Well, that's it for this episode. We'd like to, of course, thank Kanye Barnes of Sustainability Matters for walking us through both the pitfalls and promises of living sustainably.

And if you want to learn more about how you can build sustainable practices into your life, and you should, please visit sustainabilitymatters. earth for more information. That's sustainabilitymatters, and matters is plural, dot earth. So, thanks again for listening to this episode of What the Health. We hope you'll join us again.