Shownotes
Brett, Steve, and Norm get into some juicy topics that you won’t want to miss. We’re talking everything from the Supreme Court's influence on Roe v. Wade to the endless political drama around figures like Trump and Harris. Hear some fiery opinions, especially about extreme rhetoric and outrageous media stories. We are also a bit miffed about Ohio voters being confused over ballot issues.
We'll chat about the new Ohio legislation targeting illegal drag racing, and the heated debates around Ohio's recent abortion law changes. Expect some fun takes too, like the incredible moment LeBron James hit the court with his son – a historic NBA first! We’ll also get into celebrity politics with some critiques of Bruce Springsteen and Bono's over-the-top comments.
Common Sense Moments
10:12 Celebrities shouldn't alienate their fan base.
15:08 Ohio law targets street takeovers and stunt driving.
17:56 Lawyers challenge loitering law as unconstitutional.
24:37 Non-elected groups influence abortion measures nationwide.
31:21 Claims of Trump as Hitler, deemed irresponsible rhetoric.
37:34 Ordinary people seduced by Nazification's banal evil.
42:34 U.S. uses military strength defensively, not offensively.
44:02 Leftists accused of hypocrisy, favoring discriminatory policies.
49:07 Manslaughter differs from intentional murder; lacks intent.
54:46 UK interference alleged: diplomats politicizing in U.S.
58:48 LeBron and son playing NBA game together.
Recorded at the 511 Studios, in the Brewery District in downtown Columbus, OH.
info@commonsenseohioshow.com
Copyright 2025 Common Sense Ohio
Stephen Palmer is the Managing Partner for the law firm, Palmer Legal Defense. He has specialized almost exclusively in criminal defense for over 26 years. Steve is also a partner in Criminal Defense Consultants, a firm focused wholly on helping criminal defense attorneys design winning strategies for their clients.
Norm Murdock is an automobile racing driver and owner of a high-performance and restoration car parts company. He earned undergraduate degrees in literature and journalism and graduated with a Juris Doctor from the University of Cincinnati College of Law in 1985. He worked in the IT industry for two years before launching a career in government relations in Columbus, Ohio. Norm has assisted clients in the Transportation, Education, Healthcare, and Public Infrastructure sectors.
Brett Johnson, My Podcast Guy®, is an award-winning podcast consultant and small business owner for nearly 10 years, leaving a long career in radio. He is passionate about helping small businesses tell their story through podcasts, and he believes podcasting is a great opportunity for different voices to speak and be heard.
https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nd/4.0/
Transcripts
We are live coming at you Common Sense Ohio, 102524. 102524. There's some rhythm to that number. There's a rhythm to that date, but, if no other rhythm, we've got common sense. And as I say and I go when I go into the courtroom, the truth has a rhythm. And when it's out of rhythm, you know, somebody may not be telling the truth. So we're gonna do our best to keep it in rhythm here, commonsenseohioshow.com. If you've got questions, if you got topics you want us to cover, you can also check us out on all the socials.
Steve Palmer [:See, I'm I'm cool now. All the socials, and, we are on Rumble. We're on YouTube. We're on Facebook, and, we are coming at you live week in week out these days. For those who have followed, we've got this newer format. But one of the things we like to do is talk about this day in history. We did it for World War 2 for a long time. Why? Because I like World War 2, but then I realized not everybody likes World War 2 as much as I do.
Steve Palmer [:Sometimes it's boring. Sometimes it's pop culture. Sometimes it's like it is today, probably historically interesting, but boring to those who don't like history. But nonetheless, this on this day in history, 2 of the greatest and one of the greatest battles in English history and one of the worst defeats in English history happened on the same day, in let's get the years right here, guys. In, in 14/15
Norm Murdock [:Oh, yeah.
Steve Palmer [:The 100 yeah. The right.
Steve Palmer [:14/15, during the in the midst of the 100 years war, the British defeat the French in the battle of Agincourt where they're grossly see, I was a medieval history major back in back in my college days. You were? Yeah. Yeah. I was. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Oh, I
Norm Murdock [:didn't know you put that in there as well. Medieval history? Wow.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. I I focus on that and legal history stuff. So Oh, but we I read a book called The Faces of Battle, I believe, and I forget who wrote it, some British guy. And one of the battles he highlighted was Agincourt. And what was interesting about Agincourt is the Brits were grossly outnumbered. I think, like, 2 to 1, 4000 to 6000 or something like that. The French had their knights all in their shining armor and probably not shining, but all in their armor, and they were marching across the field, to meet the British, and they got sort of mudded in because it had been rainy and gross, and the mud in the field wasn't very big. But the British had these big long pikes guarding their, I think, a relatively new weapon called a long bow, which is sort of like the modern day artillery, and they started barraging the knights with their arrows from afar.
Steve Palmer [:And, so what did the French do? They send more knights out there, and they get so crowded in the battlefield that they couldn't really even move. And, eventually, the Brits just send they they say, here, you take the here, you archers. Take these axes and other and maces or whatever medieval weapons you got and go slaughter these guys. That's what they did. So that's a huge British victory. I think they go on to lose a 100 years war, if I'm not mistaken. But, anyway, fast forward a couple 100 years, and we have the famous, defeat in the battle of Balaklava in the Crimean war, the charge of the light brigade. So, anyway, I'm not gonna go into too much more history there.
Steve Palmer [:Norm is, like, bored over there, but I can see him, like, talking. But the Russians defeat the British in this horribly they say it was an accident. The order to go charge the 600 strong, go charge down this valley and get slaughtered, in the charge of the light brigade. But, there's a great poem about it if you're interested.
Norm Murdock [:Well, I can so I'll add a little bit of history. This it happened a couple of days ago in Ohio. So let's bring back to Ohio, and then we can go off to news. Charles Pretty Boy Floyd shot by FBI agents in a cornfield in East Liverpool, Ohio. Oh, there
Steve Palmer [:we go.
Norm Murdock [:Back on this date back, I forget what what year was it? Thank shoot. I lost the year. But anyway, so that was interesting that that, you know, the pretty boy, terminology he hated. Some some prostitute gave that name and he hated that name. So I'm sure that's
Steve Palmer [:why If you're if you're like a notorious vicious gangster, you call pretty boy, but it's such a good name.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. So I think a 1933 might have been something like that. Right? Yeah. But yeah. It sounds about right. I see. But that's just Ohio history.
Brett Johnson [:Wasn't he a member of Mal Barker's gang?
Norm Murdock [:1934. Excuse me. It doesn't say, but he could have been.
Brett Johnson [:I think he was.
Norm Murdock [:It could have been. Yeah. Exactly. I don't know. You know how much history they wanna give to it. Anyway, so I thought that was kind of interesting. So yeah.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. That at that Agincourt, Steve, if I remember that book, it's written by John somebody. John Keegan, probably. John Keegan.
Steve Palmer [:He was a famous British historian.
Brett Johnson [:The cover of that book has a helmet, with a bolt, like, through the helmet from that battle that that was excavated. And, yeah, that was Wow. You talk about close quarters battle. You know, you weren't shooting the m sixteens, against AKs from a a 100 yards away. This was mano a mano, you know.
Steve Palmer [:Well, this is why the longbow is such a huge invention, you know. And it shows you one of the things, you know, if you study battles like that or history of war, one of the things is, like, who's got the technology at the time? And, if somebody gains an advantage like that
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:It's huge. Right? So you can take 6,000 and defeat 14,000 Yeah. Because you're smart enough to sort of lay back and lob arrows over the muddy battlefield and just pick these guys off. And it was like, imagine that, like, you're you're riding in this barrage of arrows that's falling on you. You can't there's no protection.
Brett Johnson [:And we go we go in and out of technology as a human species. So, like, the Chinese invented gunpowder and, the Japanese had firearms, you know, before Europeans did. And then they decided that they were, not chivalrous.
Steve Palmer [:Right. So you go back to swords?
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. So they so they actually eschewed technology. The Romans on your on your arrow thing, they had this weird weapon that they it was like a gatling gun, arrow firing machine with like, you would load it with arrows and actually crank this thing and it would shoot arrows out.
Steve Palmer [:I didn't know that.
Brett Johnson [:Probably didn't work real great, but, I mean
Steve Palmer [:Well, they they I mean, they also had liquid fire. Remember the Oh, yeah. Yeah. But
Brett Johnson [:I think they called Greek fire.
Steve Palmer [:Greek fire. Yeah. But, you
Steve Palmer [:know, you had like, if you if you fast
Brett Johnson [:forward napalm. It was like napalm.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. They're really a precursor to napalm. But then, like, go fast forward to, like, 1931. When did Hitler invade,
Brett Johnson [:Poland? Poland. 39.
Steve Palmer [:39. I was gonna say 39. Yeah. And also and he comes out with this brand new technology right on the heels of World War 1 when it's basically a stagnated trench war where nobody's doing anything, where it's just sit back and try to pick each other off, go over the top, and get slaughtered.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Now that sort of changed at the end. Once the doughboys once the Americans came in, Patton came in with some
Brett Johnson [:sort of new ideas. Like Yeah. Tanks came in.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. Let let's let's just throw chain link fence underneath the over top of the, barbed wire and then cross it. Right? It was like, oh, we can do that. But then Hitler takes that and literally drives the truck through it and, and creates mobile warfare, lightning warfare, blitzkrieg.
Brett Johnson [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:And it changes the face of war, forever. Forever.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. It's maneuver warfare completely.
Steve Palmer [:He had techno now look. We all had that technology. He used it. Yeah. So anyway.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah? Yeah. So,
Steve Palmer [:so now we got alright. Now we got news with Norm. So tell us what's going on in the world. Norm Norm's got his notes over there.
Steve Palmer [:It it
Norm Murdock [:can't he kinda had that look like where do I start? So I think it was that pause.
Brett Johnson [:Moving forward 600 years.
Steve Palmer [:So so
Steve Palmer [:I mean, we talked about Saturday Night Live. Come on. Give us a little bit of historical background.
Brett Johnson [:Come on, man. So I I was, watching a little bit while I was, you know, otherwise occupied doing dishes and laundry. But I was watching a little bit of the Kamala show in Georgia last night where she had, opening act was Bruce Springsteen followed by Barack Obama and then Kamala. There were some other entertainers. But the after Bruce played and after, you know and then the crowd started to thin a little. And then Barack came on, and after he was finished, the crowd got down to about half. And, I think my advice to Kamala would be do Bruce after you speak.
Steve Palmer [:Right. Speak first
Brett Johnson [:Yes.
Steve Palmer [:And then celebrate later.
Brett Johnson [:And then
Norm Murdock [:be the opening act, basically. Yeah. Basically, flip
Brett Johnson [:it and make people stick around and hear your speech. Yeah. So, you know, there's my gift to the DNC. I man, we you advertise Bruce is gonna play and I'm sure a lot of Republicans showed up because they love the music and then they took off.
Steve Palmer [:It's just
Norm Murdock [:common sense. Right? Yeah. You'd think.
Brett Johnson [:So, like, for me, that was the big big thing yesterday and and that that's on my mind and, you know, frankly, it's been a battle of celebrities. You know, Trump's got Kid Rock and, you know, he he he's got, you know, gosh. Who's that wrestler? Tore his shirt open at the I mean, he's got John Rich of of big and little and, you know Yeah. So and then It
Norm Murdock [:is that kind of season, isn't it? It always seems to be like the last couple of weeks, they just do the firepower of superstars coming out. That really doesn't care.
Steve Palmer [:This is a pet peeve of mine. I don't give a rat's ass who Bruce brings who Bruce Springsteen is voting for or who Kid Rock is voting for or any of these other people. I I take no moral cues Yeah. From celebrities. I never have and I never will.
Brett Johnson [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:It doesn't mean I don't enjoy Bruce Springsteen's music. I have over the years. It doesn't mean I don't enjoy Kid Rock's music. I have over the years. I've seen them both in concert, both great shows. I could care less who they're voting for.
Brett Johnson [:The problem with you, Steve, is you're logical.
Steve Palmer [:See? But it makes too much common sense.
Brett Johnson [:It it yeah. Exactly.
Norm Murdock [:And look. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:If if anybody thinks these rock stars and actors have morals
Brett Johnson [:Exactly.
Steve Palmer [:Right? They they live in a different world. They don't even like, they they have no framework to even understand what's going on in the country. And that's that's that might be an overgeneralization, but that's Exhibit a my start point.
Brett Johnson [:Exhibit a, Diddy. I mean
Norm Murdock [:Well, yeah.
Brett Johnson [:I mean, there you go. You know,
Steve Palmer [:so Well, look. And the rats are jumping off that ship as fast as
Steve Palmer [:they can, man.
Steve Palmer [:I mean, there are people fleeing to Europe
Steve Palmer [:and Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:And and maybe not because of the Diddy case, but
Steve Palmer [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:They aren't in the country.
Norm Murdock [:Timing is weird on that one. Yeah. Exactly.
Brett Johnson [:So, you know, I I was listening also to that Kevin. I is it O'Leary or yeah. Kevin O'Leary, the the Shark Tank guy.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:You know, he's like a millionaire and, you know, that that whole show. And he says, you know, this would be kind of a corollary to what Steve just said. He says, what kind of, like, idiot celebrity would piss off half of the potential market? Like, he said, I would take all of these celebrities and bring them into my classroom and go, you know, marketing 101. Don't offend your your customer base. So if you're Bruce Springsteen, like, he's been apologizing for 20 years now to his conservative fans that, listen. You know? I'm I'm a woke liberal and born in the USA doesn't really mean what you think it means and etcetera, etcetera. It's like, why did he have to go there? Just play your music.
Steve Palmer [:Well, just play it.
Brett Johnson [:Right? 1,000,000 of dollars, you know.
Steve Palmer [:Because he doesn't it doesn't matter anymore.
Brett Johnson [:It doesn't matter.
Steve Palmer [:He's got so much money and he's so established. And this is what makes his this is what for those same reasons that he doesn't care is the same reason he doesn't have the perspective that the rest of us have. You know, in Springsteen, look, I was a huge Springsteen fan growing up, changed my you know, I really, really, connected. And now not so much. You know? Now I'm like, alright. So you you you, the entertainer who is connected and seemed like you were part of what people were experiencing
Brett Johnson [:The common man.
Steve Palmer [:Are so far removed from that that you don't understand it.
Brett Johnson [:Actually, Steve, I feel exploited. I mean, I know that sounds like a you know, it's like like an emotional word. But, like, I went to all Springsteen's concerts, and I had his records and all of this stuff. And I loved his music. I I probably converted several people to being Springsteen fans. And then to find out that he's really not like, he really doesn't relate to the common person anymore.
Steve Palmer [:Well
Steve Palmer [:I just feel extremely confident. Older. Yeah. He changed.
Brett Johnson [:Started running.
Steve Palmer [:He's an incredible artist.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. He's an incredible poet.
Steve Palmer [:Yep. He's very, very well read. Yeah. And he's got like, he's one of those he's an he's got an artistic view on life. Like, he sees things in a very artistic way, and then then has the ability to convert that into his art form, which is music and songwriting. Right. Right. And and for that, I am just infinitely impressed by him.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. But I don't wanna be lectured to No. By an a songwriter, an artist.
Brett Johnson [:So like another one
Steve Palmer [:He doesn't know any more than we know. No. No.
Brett Johnson [:And probably knows less. And, like, another one is Bono. He came out the other day and said that if Trump wins, he's gonna drive an automobile off a cliff.
Steve Palmer [:Okay.
Brett Johnson [:And I'm like, what the hell?
Steve Palmer [:Like, what
Brett Johnson [:is what is wrong with people to say crazy?
Steve Palmer [:What are these people that say they're gonna leave if
Norm Murdock [:they're Every political season you hear that. Well, did you do it? No. Did you do it? No. Wow. Why
Steve Palmer [:And why is it if this place is so horrible that people keep wanting to come here?
Brett Johnson [:Well, when Bono had this And
Steve Palmer [:they threatened to leave, but they don't.
Brett Johnson [:For for 8 years, Bono was working with, George Bush junior, like, on various world hunger projects and, AIDS and, malaria projects and all these things, particularly in Africa. Apparently, there's a bunch of African little boys about 8 to 10 years old, all named George Bush because Bush was really popular in Africa through Bono and his charities of doing a lot of work.
Steve Palmer [:About W?
Brett Johnson [:I'm talking about w. Yeah. Yeah. And so, like, so when Bono says crazy shit like that, like, you know, I'm gonna drive off a cliff, he he then is issuing any possibility of working with Trump. Like, that's crazy.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. If
Brett Johnson [:Trump is gonna be president for the next 4 years and you're trying to solve or at least address, not solve, but address world hunger and, you know, malaria and all these other things that he's interested in, Again, why would you offend half of your possible audience? I don't get it.
Steve Palmer [:Well, this is this is the problem politically on both sides of the aisle right now is that we've got about an even split in this country, it seems.
Brett Johnson [:Yes. It does. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:And, if if you are if your con if your position is everybody else is wrong except for the people that agree with you Yeah. And well, look. This is why our table is round. This is why we created the show. It's because I believe that there it's typically and maybe it's because of what I do for a living.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:You have this extreme. You have this extreme. And then somewhere in the middle, these ideas have to mishmash into a into a mixing bowl, and we gotta figure out the truth. We have to figure out what's right. And never or rarely is remember in in writing, we're always taught never just argue in the what's the the superlative or the definitive. It is always bad
Steve Palmer [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:To do this. It is always this. That's right. There's always that. Because it's hardly ever always. You you have you have to leave room for exceptions.
Brett Johnson [:It's totally unscientific to talk that way. Yeah. You know, you should always leave open the possibility that you're wrong.
Steve Palmer [:Even though you all so that may be the one always exception. Yeah. Right.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.
Steve Palmer [:A good little piece of
Brett Johnson [:A little bit of Ohio news. This is interesting. So back in July, DeWine and the and the general assembly passed and put into law, it it takes effect, I think, today, the house bill 56. So this is one of those, bills that's addressing kind of like a a a popular, you know, kind of crime taking place, and that is stunt driving or what they call street takeovers. And those have been happening. We've been reporting on that here on the show in, in all the cities in Ohio, basically. Like, they'll start a bonfire in the middle of an intersection and then do wheelies and do drifting and do doughnuts and, you know, block traffic, impede the flow of, you know, ambulances and commuters and, you know, people just trying to go get groceries or or go to the pharmacy, whatever. And so, what this has done is it has added into the state law against street racing, which I think is a 4th degree felony, what they call stunt driving.
Brett Johnson [:And that would include all the things I just mentioned. And then, apparently, there's a way to upgrade it to a 3rd degree felony if it's especially egregious. What they took out of the bill, and I'm glad to see this because we do have the right of free assembly, right, Is they were going to add in that the spectators of these events would be, criminally, chargeable, and they took that out of the bill.
Norm Murdock [:Oh, I guess I thought they kept that I read it wrong. Or it was an older version. Good.
Brett Johnson [:It was an older version. They took the switch.
Steve Palmer [:They were initially going to criminalize those who were spectating drag races.
Brett Johnson [:Yes. Yeah. Right. So illegal drag race.
Steve Palmer [:Now look. I mean, this is, like, notorious. Down the south side of Columbus, they would go people would, like, in a neighbor or, like, in a in an empty street, people would sort of line the streets and they would, form up and, you know, in in, Fast and Furious style, they would drag race. And Yeah. You know, so you would the argument would have to be that all the spectators are co conspirators or something like that. But you're right. So this this is an interesting jumping off point to talk about how the constitutional system should work. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:So the general assembly, that's what we call the legislative branch here in Ohio. They pass laws. So they go down and they argue and they debate. They're on the on the general assembly floor. You can go right up here at Broad, Maine, and you can watch it.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:I've been there.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:And it it's like,
Brett Johnson [:It's free.
Steve Palmer [:It's free, and it's entertaining. And people give big long speeches and they and I told you so. You know, whatever. So they pass a law, and it's gotta pass both sides, and then the governor has to either sign into law or the governor gets to veto it. And then and
Brett Johnson [:Or he can do nothing and it becomes law.
Steve Palmer [:It becomes a pocket v or yeah. Right. He does nothing.
Norm Murdock [:Table. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:So then then what happens is these crafty lawyers, they get involved on behalf of a client, say, charged with loitering around a drag racing assembly. I look at it and I read it. I'm like, Well, Well, that's interesting, because somebody's got a First Amendment right, I would say, to free assembly. Yeah. So I then file a motion to dismiss, and I say, this law as applied to my client here is unconstitutional, or on its face, it reads unconstitutionally. I would think this is more of an as applied challenge, because if you're assembling there and you're participating, that would be, you know, the the law leaves room for that. And then the the judge at my trial court level gets to decide, is this constitutional or not? So think about this, like, maybe a misdemeanor municipal court judge in in Ohio, and I'm gonna segue this into abortion here in a second. They get to say, look, this law is unconstitutional, then it goes to the Court of Appeals, and then it goes to the highest Supreme Court.
Steve Palmer [:The highest Supreme Court has to rule on it. And if they rule against you, then we get to go directly up to the US Supreme Court. And it's like, anybody who's like, I'm just a bill. It's sort of like that. Right? They there's a process that works, and this is this is the check and balance process, and this is what we now call judicial review.
Brett Johnson [:I'll I'll throw one more in there, Steve, and then go to your subject. The same bill also, makes it a felony now to run from the police. And I'm not talking about, like, speed related. Like like, you could do a slow run like, like Al Callings and OJ did. You know? It could be at the speed limit. Right? And you're and you're refusing to pull over. So that is now a felony under this law. And this law also requires each PD in Ohio to develop a chase policy.
Brett Johnson [:So if it's gonna be a felony, I think the legislature said, well, then, okay. We're gonna we're gonna let you charge people.
Steve Palmer [:This
Steve Palmer [:is interesting. Because there's always a charge called fleeing and eluding. Yeah. And so this is like, we're just gonna really make it criminal. Exactly. And so and then then forcing police departments through the legend. This is this is my
Steve Palmer [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:This is my pet peeve.
Brett Johnson [:So you Forcing them to create a policy.
Steve Palmer [:To create a policy. And then then what?
Steve Palmer [:What if
Steve Palmer [:you don't like their policy?
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. It doesn't tell you what has to be in the policy.
Steve Palmer [:Right. But you have to have a policy.
Brett Johnson [:But you have to have a policy.
Steve Palmer [:Alright. Thanks, legislature. Yeah. Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:Kinda like how they told us We didn't think of that. Like they like they told the school districts they had to have a policy on dismissing students to go to outside religious events. Yep. They had to, you know, develop a policy. So to but they didn't say what kind.
Steve Palmer [:Well, in another stroke of the pen of judicial review, in Ohio law that restricted most abortions, the heartbeat bill, it was affectionately known as, is now unconstitutional, at least according to Hamilton County Common Pleas Judge Christian Jenkins because of the new and most recent constitutional amendment in Ohio. So judicial review works both ways, like, at a state court level and at the national level. So we have this, Ohio constitutional amendment that we debated about here at the table. We can go back and reference the episode of 1.
Steve Palmer [:Sure.
Steve Palmer [:And now the heartbeat law, which has been challenged up and down all over the place for years, is now deemed unconstitutional by a county court judge.
Brett Johnson [:So in his filing, Yost, the attorney general, agreed that it is unconstitutional.
Steve Palmer [:It is. Right? Well, at least parts of it Yeah. Says, yes.
Brett Johnson [:And what he wanted to do was keep the notice requirements in so that if a minor was seeking an abortion, her parents would at least know
Norm Murdock [:about it.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. And At
Steve Palmer [:least have to hear the heartbeaters.
Brett Johnson [:And they and, you know, they they threw that argument out as well. Because this this constitutional amendment that the voters passed, last year is pretty comprehensive.
Steve Palmer [:Right. And this is why I hate legislating in the constitution. This is why Roe v Wade should never been a constitutional issue. It's it's why it isn't a constitutional issue. And I don't think it's a state level constitutional issue, although I think it's better at the state levels than the federal levels. I think the better the better way to handle abortion issues is on the general assembly floor. We're talking about this off the air. Right? So you have this we have this country that's divided.
Steve Palmer [:Or we are on the air. I don't remember. We're we're talking about it. This country is divided, maybe 5050 on this issue. Yeah. And who are we to say the other side has to do it our way because of a constitutional amendment? That has to be done locally, politically in the general assembly process where there can be open and public debate about it
Brett Johnson [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:And then voting. And then it can change.
Brett Johnson [:So what what what you what our listeners might remember, especially the Ohio listeners, is immediately preceding the election where the constitutional amendment was passed, basically allowing unfettered abortion. 1 doctor if if if one doctor, instead of 2 under the heartbeat bill, if just one doctor will say that it affects the health detrimentally to the female, right up to the day of birth. Abortion is legal in Ohio now. So it's it's way more radical than it was under Roe, which at least protected the final trimester. But now now it's right up to the date of day of birth. Immediately preceding that election where that was passed by the voters in Ohio, there was another one and it gets to what Steve was just talking about. It was called issue 1. And what what that was about the voters rejected issue 1.
Brett Johnson [:And what issue 1 would have done is required at least 60% of the general population to approve a change in the constitution. And and and they rejected that, so then a citizen initiative to do unfettered abortion was then voted in by just, you know, by just a citizen initiative, you know, gathering petitions. And it's not very hard in Ohio to put an initiative on the ballot. Like, we've got one coming up, on I'm stripping it here. But it we we have one coming up right now, on the ballot that, you know, should be struck down, but people it's it's about redistricting, and people will look at that and go, oh, yeah. Let's get politics out of redistricting. So they're gonna elect. If this passes this election, this citizen initiative would allow an unelected 15 person panel to decide congressional and house districts, for the state legislature.
Brett Johnson [:And and so to Steve's point, then you have no accountability to the public because you're not even elected. I can't throw you out of office, you know, in November because I don't like the way that you're districting. So this is the problem. There are 31 citizen, initiated abortion measures on ballots nationally in this election coming up. 31, in across the country, and these are all being instigated by, you know, narrow interest groups that are that are just targeting one subject, and in this case, abortion. So it's you know? And then it's subject to like like what we were talking about, celebrities coming out and and, you know, people getting basically propagandized without really knowing the the nitty gritty. And I still think that if you had told most women in Ohio, this thing allows abortion up to the day of birth, they would not have voted for it. They would have voted for something more, less extreme like what Roe had where the final trimester was protected for the baby.
Brett Johnson [:So it's pretty sad, Steve. Yeah. No. I'm not. You get when you don't have the legislature arguing and debating and having hearings and listening to publicly.
Norm Murdock [:Fleshing stuff stuff stuff out.
Steve Palmer [:That's right. When when activists insist and eventually succeed in making something a constitutional issue that is this, controversial Yeah. Then basically, you have blotted out the entire other half of this of the country Yeah. And and said there, not only are you wrong, your opinion never matters ever again.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:And, it just it it stings on both sides.
Brett Johnson [:It really does.
Steve Palmer [:Whether one side is doing or the other side is doing it. And this is why the conservative platform or the conservative view of the constitution is this meandering line. We're talking about this last week too. Like, conservatives don't always vote the way you want them to because of issues like this. We're not gonna enshrine this as a constitutional issue because it's not a constitutional issue for a reason. Even though we would like it to be, even though I would love to have a constitutional ban for or I can't even say it. Even though I would love a ban on abortion, or I would love it to be this, that we don't have abortion.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. But But
Steve Palmer [:I'm not willing to say make it a constitutional amendment.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. The the heartbeat bill was legislation.
Steve Palmer [:That's what
Brett Johnson [:it was different. There were committee hearings. There were debates. People could elect or unelect their representatives if they didn't like the way they voted.
Steve Palmer [:And it's not permanent.
Brett Johnson [:And it's not permanent.
Steve Palmer [:It's not permanent.
Brett Johnson [:So We just saw how it's not permanent. You can you can knock it down.
Steve Palmer [:And and and the issue here, like, abortion is such a it's such a it's a bitter way bittersweet way to talk about this issue. Because on the one hand, it's it's bitter because it's it's such a hot hotbed topic. Right? But on the other hand, it's a perfect example of why I believe this because the technology of Roe v Wade talked about trimesters and all sorts of other nonsense that didn't have any basis in the record of that case. Yeah. That was added later by the court the Supreme Court. Those things can and if it is true that there's this trimester approach or, if if we're gonna have abortion based on some developmental, milestone Yeah. It is also true that we all know scientifically our viewpoint on that stuff is subject and probably likely to change.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Sure.
Steve Palmer [:So, you know, when it like, talk about viability. Viability today is not what it was 200 years ago.
Brett Johnson [:No. Right?
Steve Palmer [:So if you're gonna have if you're gonna pass a constitutional amendment based on viability, it immediately has a sunset provision in it Yeah. But there's no good way to change it. Well,
Brett Johnson [:so my son one of my sons is, wants to be a cardiologist. And the and the heartbeat bill, what it what it actually said was when cardiac activity can be detected. And they figured out that it can be detected. I don't think they meant this, but it can be detected as early as 6 weeks. Yep. I mean, that's a month and a half after somebody gets pregnant. They they may not even
Norm Murdock [:know their pressure. Thinking the same thing they probably don't. Even
Steve Palmer [:know. Right.
Norm Murdock [:They probably don't. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:I mean, look, I think scientifically, eventually, it will become that that life begins upon inception. And then you could then people just have to define that however they want. I mean, because look. I mean, we it'll sooner or later, viability will happen at conception if it's not already there. You know? It it just will. Right. Because that's what modern science does.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Mhmm. You know? And,
Brett Johnson [:you could take that side goat, put it in a petri dish and probably grow it.
Steve Palmer [:It and grow it. I mean, sooner or later, that that will it it wouldn't surprise me if that can happen now. Exactly. And so you have to have laws that can change with it. This is the beauty of our constitutional and legislative and executive form or or system of government because it it leaves room for this.
Brett Johnson [:It can adapt.
Steve Palmer [:It can adapt. It can change. Now the argument's going well, you can always have a constitutional amendment. Well, look, ask the other side of how how effective that is. Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:You know,
Steve Palmer [:they don't they
Steve Palmer [:Exactly.
Steve Palmer [:You know, they don't they couldn't go get an amendment for Roe v Wade, so they went up to the Supreme Court and convinced the court to do it. Yeah. So that that's, in in in legal fiction style. But, anyway, go ahead. We're we're probably off too fast.
Brett Johnson [:Nat and and a little so we're closing in. You know? The the we're in the final argument stage of this national campaign. And I gotta tell you, I'm worn out. If I if I hear the word Trump or or the name Harris one more time, I feel like I'm gonna blow up. I'm I'm so sick of it. But I I can't get past this thing. So Trump was almost, like, within a half an inch of having his head blown off if he just turned the other way at that instant. So we almost had an assassination of 1 of the 2 candidates.
Brett Johnson [:Right? And what I can't get over, when you go into the writings of that kid from Pennsylvania, they a lot of it was almost word for word, some of this crazy extreme banter that Trump is Hitler and a fascist, and he he's he's a dictator and he has to be stopped at all costs even though he has a 4 year record of being none of those things. Right? I mean, he was president for 4 years. And I would ask you what Hitlerian or Mussolini like behavior did he engage in? The answer is none. He didn't go after Hillary. He, you know, he didn't take people's guns away. He didn't stamp on your right to free speech. He didn't do any things that you know, he didn't go for Lebens realm, you know, like, let's take over Mexico and Canada like Hitler did. He didn't do anything that was like Hitler.
Brett Johnson [:He's in fact, he was wearing a yarmulke when when he named Jerusalem, you know, as moved our embassy to Jerusalem. And his grandchildren are Jews. So this is the worst Hitler of all time if he's Hitler. And what I can't get over is is is Kamala and these people calling him a fascist and Hitler, and yet if he wins, she as vice president is gonna have to certify like Mike Pence had to. He she's gonna have to certify what she calls a fascist as she's gonna certify his election. And so she is creating this extreme talk that led to, in my opinion, contributed to I won't say directly, but it's part of the milieu in our society that people felt like this the shooter, this kid, in his writings felt like Trump was a threat to democracy and and he was doing something noble by by trying to assassinate him. And I just wonder they're right back to the same rhetoric with 12 days or 10 days to go here or whatever it is. And I just I just find it so irresponsible.
Brett Johnson [:Hit Hillary Rodham Clinton last night was was on cable comparing Trump's upcoming Madison Square Garden rally to the one that Fritz Kuhn and the American Bund party had in 1939, you know, with Nazi flags and, talking about how great Hitler is and all this stuff. Just because Trump's rally is gonna be at Madison Square Garden, she made that comparison, which is outrageous. I mean, it's outrageous.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. No. Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:I mean whether you're gonna vote for him
Steve Palmer [:or not.
Norm Murdock [:Right. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think the extreme talk on both sides, just like you began, it's it's just overwhelming and how do how do how does anyone kinda come out of this unscathed mentally mental health, you know, that just that constant name calling and this that it just it's
Brett Johnson [:Well, and if somebody kills if somebody kills Trump, how how is Kamala gonna
Norm Murdock [:Well, and and I and I realize, I think we all do, that if you look back in history of all the previous campaigns I mean, good grief, early 1900, late 1800, whatever you wanna look at. The name calling was there.
Brett Johnson [:We just
Norm Murdock [:we just have the opportunity here
Steve Palmer [:at constantly. Now it's on a on a on a national On
Steve Palmer [:a loop.
Steve Palmer [:Ubiquitous bullhorn.
Norm Murdock [:Oh my god.
Brett Johnson [:She has a $1,000,000,000 to spend in the next 10 days. Wow. I mean, my god.
Steve Palmer [:I mean, look. Trump was guilty of this last time, and Biden's guilty of it this time. So did you see Biden's fee? And, you know, Trump thinks he has a right under the Supreme Court ruling on immunity to be able, if need be, if that was the case, to actually eliminate physically eliminate, shoot and kill someone who believes to be a threat to him, Biden says. I mean, this is nonsense. And and first of all, he doesn't know what Trump believes. Secondly, the Supreme Court case didn't say anything close to that. No. And so what is Biden's conclusion? I mean, so, you know, this sounds bizarre.
Steve Palmer [:It sounds like if if I said this 5 years ago, you'd lock me up. We gotta lock him up. Then he sort of says, politically lock him up. So but but now now look. For all those on Trump's side of things
Brett Johnson [:And, actually, they have been trying to lock him up.
Steve Palmer [:Well, of course. But for all those on Trump's side of things, go back and turn back the clock because Trump started with this, lock her up, lock
Steve Palmer [:her up.
Steve Palmer [:They were chanting it. But then
Brett Johnson [:he didn't do anything.
Steve Palmer [:He didn't do it. But it's the rhetoric that's that's that's the problem. And and look and and I think you're right. This is a little bit different with Trump because they actually are trying to lock him up.
Brett Johnson [:Yes. Exactly.
Steve Palmer [:But I think worse is what you're talking about. The news stories that have come out now that he says that he was he had Nazi generals or that, now this other story that came out that he, didn't wanna pay for a funeral of somebody or other. I mean, it's like And
Brett Johnson [:in both cases, it was debunked. It's debunked. The the family of that fallen soldier has come to Trump's defense and said, he was so polite, so nice to us. He didn't say anything of that kind. And
Steve Palmer [:look, about the Nazi general comment. So now all of a sudden, they've taken that. I saw even somebody locally, a political figure locally, as I saw on a Facebook post. You know, we can't have Nazi sympathizers.
Norm Murdock [:Oh, for sure.
Steve Palmer [:Well, first
Steve Palmer [:of all, let's just let's even assume. Because we had a conversation this morning.
Brett Johnson [:You saw Pence's chief of staff knock that down. He said, I was with John Kelly and president
Steve Palmer [:Trump. It's true.
Brett Johnson [:He never said anything
Steve Palmer [:like that. True for a second.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Because we had this conversation here
Brett Johnson [:at the table this morning. Was true.
Steve Palmer [:If it were true. Okay. So we were talking this morning how Hitler and his army, used technology to their advantage, and then changed the course of warfare. Right? And look, on you can say both things at once. Hitler was a horrible dude that is with one of the worst ideologies ever. Of course. Committed the worst atrocities historically. Of course.
Steve Palmer [:And he had good generals. Like, you can say that.
Brett Johnson [:And he had good he had good highways.
Steve Palmer [:And he had bad generals. And he had good highways. And he made that and Mussolini made the trans it's
Brett Johnson [:actually a treaty All you hippies out there that have Volkswagen Beetles,
Steve Palmer [:guess who guess who invented that? It was Adolf Hitler.
Steve Palmer [:And I remember learning quite harmlessly that all these things were true. Like, Hitler, for all his warts, was, like and the Germans were very efficient at things, and they kept various studious records, and they kept all this. So you can say those things are good and say the other things are horrific at the same time. You can say that Rommel was a military, he was a genius strategist. You can say that. Yeah. And that doesn't mean I'm a Nazi sympathizer.
Brett Johnson [:No. It doesn't. Obviously. And and the US War College, our our cadets go study these battles wherein Rommel or some other person, you know, working for the other side, maybe a Confederate general, right, did something brilliant as a battlefield tactic. That doesn't mean you support what they were fighting for. Right. Right. Like, like, can can your brain, like, handle 2 thoughts simultaneously? Apparently not.
Steve Palmer [:Well, I
Steve Palmer [:here's what it is though. Damn. I find it so fundamentally obvious that when people gloss this Yeah. And conflate the 2
Steve Palmer [:Exactly.
Steve Palmer [:It's intentional.
Norm Murdock [:It is. Oh, for sure.
Steve Palmer [:It's intentional rhetoric because I find it hard to believe that a standard normal, reasonably intelligent person, which is almost all of
Norm Murdock [:us Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Can look at this and not understand that distinction and instead make it about political rhetoric.
Brett Johnson [:So what makes Hitler and the Nazis so incredibly disturbing was what Elie Wiesel, the the survivor of the holocaust and great author and poet, called the banality of evil. It it it is the so so you can't look at the German population in the thirties and say, they were all evil. They were all monsters. No. Most of them were normal people like like you and me of, you know, of different religions, very diverse, etcetera, throughout Germany. And yet they got sucked in to this incredible system of Nazification, and it became something that that they couldn't suppress once it took over. You know, Hitler's running the churches. He's running all of the all of this the structures in society, and it and it is kinda like boiling a frog.
Brett Johnson [:And it's it's that banality or the ordinariness of evil, how how it creeps in and when when you're not attentive and when you don't allow free speech. And this is what people miss all the time. They just wanna take they wanna do it like Steve said. They just wanna do this gloss and say everything in Germany and everything Hitler did was awful and evil. He put people to work. He built the Autobahn. He started Volkswagen with, with Porsche, and and and we I think they just quit making Beatles in Mexico, like, 10 years ago. So, like, not everything he did was evil even though he was evil.
Steve Palmer [:Well, and he used the good for evil purposes. Yes. That's the difference. That's the difference. That's the difference. And with this, there's a there's a, there's a book called Ordinary Men, and I think they made a documentary of it on in Netflix. And I I'll confess, I got this book because it was, like, on Jordan, Peter, or somebody's reading list. And I read it because it was sort of fascinating.
Steve Palmer [:Right. And I'll never forget this quote because what it talked about was, the ordinary guys who the Nazis recruited to help round up the Jews and slaughter them.
Brett Johnson [:Exactly right.
Steve Palmer [:And Exactly right.
Steve Palmer [:They they
Steve Palmer [:were sort of broken down into 3 groups. Those who, wouldn't do it Yeah. Those who actually enjoyed it, and then everybody else, all the ordinary people in the middle. It was like, you know, everybody doesn't wanna do this. Please step forward, and everybody looks back and forth.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:And and but there was a quote for those who did it and didn't and did it reluctantly. And the quote was some psychology. I think it was the afterwards, something written after the the main book. And it was something like this, moral unburdening was found in the collective identity. And, you know, this like, I I I wrote it down on a piece of scrap paper, and it still sits on my kitchen counter Sure. Because it was so insightful to me. It's like the same reason my dad said, I trust you to go out by yourself, but not with your friends. You know, it's like because you'll do things in a group that you won't do on your own.
Steve Palmer [:You'll do you'll you'll transcend your own morality
Steve Palmer [:if
Steve Palmer [:others are coaxing you along
Brett Johnson [:Very true.
Steve Palmer [:In this sort of push and pull type way. Well, you take that step. I'll go. I'll go. I'll go. And pretty soon, you are far out on the, on the plank
Steve Palmer [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:And you can't get back.
Norm Murdock [:You can also call it peer pressure.
Steve Palmer [:Peer pressure. Right. I
Norm Murdock [:mean, it it's laced in that. But, no, that that makes perfect sense. That's and it's eloquently put.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. I did write. Right. I did write it.
Brett Johnson [:Right. I just remembered it.
Steve Palmer [:This is what this
Brett Johnson [:is what causes vigilantism. This is what causes lynchings. This is you know, like, you get caught up in this, this idea that the crowd somehow legitimizes what your your little small piece of it. And a moral person would object, walk away, or try to stop it. But other people will just stay at a lynching and watch that poor guy get hung by, you know, without a trial, without an attorney, without a judge, without a courtroom. Just string him up.
Steve Palmer [:This is this is why I call wokeism like the it's like the functional equivalent of an ex post facto law. So those who now look back on others in history and say, I never would have done that. That's so bad. You're this horrible person. You have slaves. You had this. It's like Right. You know, not so fast.
Brett Johnson [:Not so fast.
Steve Palmer [:Right. Not so fast. Me included. Like, I've said stuff like this. I never would have been a slave. Like, I I don't know. You know, but we can I think it's intellectually honest to say at least, we now know that this is morally and fundamentally bad? We have a very good understanding of why, and I'm glad I'm not that person. And I'm glad we've transcended this.
Steve Palmer [:Let's put it in history and learn from it.
Brett Johnson [:But you get the trick, guys. You get the trick here. So by calling Trump Hitler, right, it then it then triggers a response like I've just had here where I'm discussing Hitler, right, in conjunction with Trump. And and in that way, they win. Right? They get what they want. They get this dialogue where we're trying to separate Trump from Hitler just because they said that.
Steve Palmer [:Well, I'm actually I'm not. I mean, what That's
Brett Johnson [:what sucks about that.
Steve Palmer [:We had a president who said sort of generically, I need it. I need generals like, like Hitler had. You know, if you if if the president is saying that, if it if it really if he's really saying that and he's saying it because, man, I loved Hitler's policies and I wish I could kill the Jews with Hitler and I go back and I conquer the world with him,
Steve Palmer [:and
Steve Palmer [:he had generals that were yes men that would say all those things and do what I want. Well, then that's different than saying, man, he had some brilliant strategist on his hands and they revolutionized warfare and were very effective, but I'm not gonna use that. I'm I'm not I wouldn't use it for the same evil purpose that he did. And guess what? If you're looking for a historical proof that the United States won't, all you have to do is look at the history of the United States. Right? We have never engaged in these, maybe never is a superlative I didn't need. But we don't take our strength, our army, our military, and try to conquer the world with it. We've always pulled back. And all you have to do is look at the end of World War 2 to understand that.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:To call to call to call for Hillary Clinton to call a a Trump rally at Madison Square Garden equivalent to a Nuremberg rally. Right? So if you follow her logic, she's saying Trump wants his grandchildren thrown in ovens. I mean, Hillary Well you're insane.
Steve Palmer [:And and remember remember Obama? Was it at Times Square? Was he in Chicago? I forget where he was for his acceptance speech back in 20 or 2008. And it was like this huge moment where the crowd was cheering, and everything was on board, and, like, people were chanting Obama. I mean, it all these rallies feel like that. And then it it but it's not to say that Obama was a fascist because it felt like that. And and, you know, it's certainly not to say that Trump's a fascist because he's got a rally that's popular. It's just so stupid. It it's so short. It's just so stupid.
Brett Johnson [:And the I hate to say this, but true leftist like Hillary and Obama are always guilty of the things they accuse other people of. So they're in favor of racial discrimination in in in in matters of, awarding scholarships, in matters of giving grants. I mean, you got Kamala saying, you know, black folks ought to get $20,000 and, you know, the Wall Street Journal found this little out for where she said and other people. She doesn't define them, but that's her out to you know? And and and it's you know, the all all the things they wanna do are things that that fascists and and Nazis did, but they say the other side wanted to do it. They're they're in favor of taking our our second amendment away, which is what Hitler did. Right? He took guns away from the private sector and and, and and just on and on. It's stamping on a right of free expression. It was it was Obama, Biden, and Harris who sent the FBI to Silicon Valley to suppress our free speech.
Brett Johnson [:Alright? It wasn't Republicans, and it wasn't Donald Trump. They're the fascists. If there's a fascist in America still, they're accusing Trump of doing things or wanting to do things that they actually did do and things that they are in favor of. So
Steve Palmer [:Alright. Alright. On that note, we gotta shift gears.
Brett Johnson [:We we gotta get to and I'm beating the horse here.
Steve Palmer [:But
Steve Palmer [:And justice for all. We're gonna shift gears. We're gonna talk about this is the legal stuff. And why do I care about the legal stuff? Well, because I'm a lawyer and I do criminal defense work, and I sort of love legal commentary and Yeah. We all should. Sort of interesting.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:And there's a couple interesting news stories out there. I mean, locally speaking, we've got a local police officer who's on trial for shooting somebody, and he says he thought it was a a handgun, but it's really a cell phone. More to come on that. I mean, the opening statements and then jury selections happened this week. So Yeah. You know, these are there's another big one coming up with a with a local police officer at the Kroger parking lot. Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:Up in Akron, the Akron City Council paid that that young man that was pulled over. They found a gun in his car, and the gun was used to shoot at the police chasing him. But the police shot him something like 60 times. 8 cops Yeah. Shot him, like, 60 times, and they settled that they even though he was probably guilty because the gun was in his car and it was the same bullets that that were striking at the police officers, but they paid that family $5,000,000.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. That's a big settlement. So look. I mean, the the police officers, it it's we all we we think they're different, but, look, there there's there's gonna be expert testimony. There's gonna be people talking about this something called a use of force continuum, what their training would say to do, what their training wouldn't say to do. But the real question is, were they trying to protect themselves at the time? You know? And and, these are very difficult questions. The jury's gonna have to sort it out, and, we'll see where it lands.
Brett Johnson [:Another Also also in Akron, Steve, just to be if, I think it was just yesterday a school resource officer punched a student in the high school and they suspended him. And and, you know, just like that as the naked fact,
Steve Palmer [:you
Brett Johnson [:don't know the circumstances.
Steve Palmer [:I was just about to say I would need to know more.
Norm Murdock [:Exactly. I would
Steve Palmer [:need to know more. Did he get punched first? We're not
Norm Murdock [:You know? Well, exactly.
Steve Palmer [:Because a punch look. Talk about the use of force continuum. A punch is a use of force by a suspect. Right. So, look, the police could pull out their taser and tase the kid. Right. The the police could give him a a punch back and disarm or whatever. Dismantle the the threat.
Steve Palmer [:And, it's a nonviolent force. Was there a better means of force available? Maybe. I mean, so look. Yeah. You would have to know more. Yeah. Because there is a world that you can tell the story, and that could be true. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:It's really bad for the cop. Yeah. Yeah. This kid mouth off to him. The cop got pissed off, hauled off, and whacked him.
Brett Johnson [:It could be an 85 pound female cop and a £300 Right. High school student.
Steve Palmer [:It could be that the cop was lower.
Norm Murdock [:Or would that the headline was lacking in self defense.
Steve Palmer [:In self defense, if it was. You know? If it was. And we don't know
Steve Palmer [:how to spell that.
Steve Palmer [:Self defense claim. That would be a very reasonable headline to read.
Norm Murdock [:I think so too. But Because, again, there was there was there was interaction.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. Clearly, there's more. Clearly, there is more.
Steve Palmer [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:Along the same lines, we have a guy named Daniel Penney, who was the subway, we'll call him the, vigilante maybe or the the the citizen hero, perhaps, if that's who you are. But this this maniac, guy enters the subway threatening to kill everybody, kill himself, and do a bunch of stuff. I don't know all the facts and details. And, Penny, sort of, attack or what am I trying to say?
Brett Johnson [:Chokehold.
Steve Palmer [:He puts him in a chokehold.
Brett Johnson [:That he was taught in the marine?
Steve Palmer [:He was taught in the marine. And there's different kinds of chokeholds. Right? They're the kind of chokeholds that are designed to kill, and they're the kind of chokeholds that I guess I'm not a jujitsu guy, but they're the kind of chokeholds that you pinch the nerves in the neck, and it it causes the person to pass out, and you basically disarm
Brett Johnson [:the threat. Kind of a Derek Chauvin thing all over again.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. Sort of. I mean
Brett Johnson [:A choke a choke situation that results in
Steve Palmer [:Other people helped and, you know, so this this guy has been placed on trial for manslaughter
Steve Palmer [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:For manslaughter. Now there's a difference. Right? So purposeful murder depending on which state you live in, the laws we call something else, but we'll call it purposeful murder for our conversation. That means you wanted to kill. Typically, manslaughter is something less than that. I didn't intend to kill. Maybe I was doing something like, like defending myself and it went too far, or I was I was, provoked in some way shape or form, or in a lot of times we sort of use the vernacular in perfect self defense. So you went too far in your self defense and somebody died, you know, that might be a manslaughter charge.
Steve Palmer [:So I look, I don't know enough facts and details about the case to say it's right or wrong, but this has divided us up divided a lot of people politically again.
Brett Johnson [:Especially Because
Steve Palmer [:the victim was black.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Well, the black mayor of New York City, Eric Adams, has come out in defense.
Steve Palmer [:In defense. Right.
Brett Johnson [:Daniel Penney said he did the right thing. And since this happened on a metro, Eric Adams was a metro cop. The mayor of New York City was a cop on that system, and he said this guy did the right thing.
Steve Palmer [:And I'm just go ahead.
Norm Murdock [:Bill, I just can say I made this sidetrack you for a second though, but there there is a local incident in in Hilliard, Ohio that a at home, store. You may have saw this that, grandparents coming in to the store Halloween shopping. The woman goes into the restroom followed by a a a a black gentleman. I don't know what country he is from. Attacked her immediately. In the women's room. In the women's room. She barely got off her husband's name yelled out.
Norm Murdock [:He comes in and gets him in a hold and and retain, you know, detains Detains his hands. That's what
Steve Palmer [:I've been looking for. Right?
Norm Murdock [:Until the cops come. Now, my question to you is, so what if this guy protecting his wife accidentally kills the guy?
Brett Johnson [:Went a little too far.
Steve Palmer [:Went a
Norm Murdock [:little too far. So Again, just by accident though, you've got It happens a lot. You and I, we all 3 So be in that situation that you're protecting your loved one.
Steve Palmer [:Here's the quote. Here's what the jury will be instructed in that scenario. The law does not measure nicely the amount of force necessary to dispel a threat or words that affect. So look, we are allowed to operate and act in self defense. We are also allowed to act in defense of others. It's called third party defense.
Steve Palmer [:Okay.
Steve Palmer [:And what that means is, I basically step into the shoes of the person under attack. So if the person under attack could use deadly force, then I, on behalf of the person under attack, can use deadly force. And it goes a little bit further than that too. So if I misperceive what I see going on, I'm allowed to make a reasonable mistake in judgment about what was really happening. And theoretically, the law should leave room for that and let me do that. The policy is we wanna protect we have to protect self defense, and we have to protect defense of others.
Norm Murdock [:Because that is a chilling effect if it goes Correct. The wrong way.
Steve Palmer [:Right. So then you have a scenario like this. For whatever political reason or for whatever, reasons the society in New York on the subways has been lulled into the state of a ride rather videotape than not right on, you know, a few months before, I can't remember how much before this penny incident, was the incident where the woman's getting raped on the subway and there's just a bunch of people taking videos
Brett Johnson [:of it
Steve Palmer [:and not doing you know, it's like, look, you know, am I gonna be the hero when the time comes? I don't know. It's sort of like the the Jordan Peterson. Like, I hope so. I don't know. Right. I you you know, you never know until you're there. Yeah. But Penny, in some respects, people should applaud it.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Now now if it's proven if it's proven that he knew the guy was dying and continued on purpose, that's a different story.
Norm Murdock [:That's a different story.
Steve Palmer [:But it's gotta be proven. You can't presume it. It's gotta be proof. Yeah. Because because if I were
Norm Murdock [:in that situation and I have people around me that can help, I want their help. Right. Help. Help me.
Steve Palmer [:And and this is the problem when you have a platform, like, all police are bad. Yeah. We need to we need to defund the police because then there aren't police on the subway when you want them. There you go. Now look, there's a check and balance. Not all cops are good. No. Right? And there's lots of bad ones.
Steve Palmer [:Of course not. And there's lots of good ones. Right. But you don't throw out the bath water with the bait or the baby with the bath water. Right? So it's like that that's what's happened. So you have these vigilantes who really, like, who else is gonna do it? It's like throw up the bat signal. You know, who's gonna take care of us if the police aren't?
Brett Johnson [:And I I think most of the passengers that so far have come forward in that car have said he did the right thing, including people of color. Yeah. You know?
Steve Palmer [:But, you know, Al Sharpton's up there
Steve Palmer [:Oh, yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Pounding the table.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. So we should not racialize every damn thing. No.
Steve Palmer [:Look. It doesn't this this to me race is irrelevant. Unless it's proven otherwise. It starts irrelevant.
Norm Murdock [:Unless it is. Correct.
Brett Johnson [:So if
Steve Palmer [:if this guy's got a history of saying, boy, one of these days, I'm gonna I'm gonna kill some black dude.
Brett Johnson [:Just look at
Steve Palmer [:for the guy.
Norm Murdock [:And and and it'll show up on social media or show up in something that he did. If he did, if the proof
Steve Palmer [:is there
Norm Murdock [:If the proof is there, it will come out.
Steve Palmer [:And I will say I would take it a step further. If if the proof is there and it doesn't come out, you can't presume that the proof is there. Right? So it's like Correct. Like, you can't just presume it. You you've got you've gotta present it. So Well,
Brett Johnson [:I've got a couple other things, but we'll table them. I'm hoping we can bring in, Adam Barney, an attorney that I know who's an expert in movies, actually. And, so there's an interesting case in California that's being honchoed in Mentor, Ohio, believe it or not, involving a movie. So we'll see if we can get Adam on the show.
Steve Palmer [:Oh, that'd be fun. Cool. Yeah. He he is a movie buff.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. He's a movie guru. I'll go right to my outrage now and then we
Norm Murdock [:can go around them. Well, we can we can promote this early too. We're gonna do our predictions next week.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. We got we got our predictions.
Brett Johnson [:We did them at the beginning of the year and then we'll we'll see where we are.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Go
Brett Johnson [:ahead. My outrage is the United Kingdom's, government workers here in the United States, have been politicized. They've they've been given, the job by the Labor Party in their off time to go and politic for the, Harris waltz ticket. And, this this is this is foreign election interference if there ever was it. And and so strictly speaking, in the United States, government workers are not supposed to be, doing anything political if they're US government employees on the clock. Right? When you're a a person in a of a diplomatic mission to the United States, whether it's from Russia or China or the United Kingdom in this case, the labor party should they should not be telling their people, hey. In your off time, go canvas the neighborhoods and and try to help Harrison waltz because, you know, Keir Starmer, the the prime minister here, the who's the Labour prime minister, he would work better with Kamala than with Trump. That that's I mean, this this if Joe Biden like like, if China did this or Russia did this, Biden would kick some of their diplomats out of the country.
Brett Johnson [:He would expel them. He should be doing that, for for these people from Great Britain. They have no business being involved in our election as foreigners. They I find it outrageous and I think it cuts both ways. I don't care if they're from nations that we're affiliated with, like Israel or or the United Kingdom or France or with its our political enemies like China and Russia. If you're a foreigner, stay out of our elections. And and I think Joe Biden should kick these people out of the country.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Wow. That's interesting. Outrageous. Heard the story this week. It was an interview with, somebody came out of the poll about the issue 1 gerrymandering here in Ohio. Yeah. And, she said that, she voted the wrong way because she was confused about the the the, how it was worded on her ballot when she went in to vote.
Norm Murdock [:And I really didn't have a whole lot of empathy for her because I'm thinking, do your damn job and, research before you walk in. Yeah. Just because you were confused when you walked in. You kind of should know what you're gonna vote for and who when you walk in. Thinking you're an idiot.
Steve Palmer [:Part of being
Norm Murdock [:You're you're an idiot.
Brett Johnson [:Part of being a good citizen.
Norm Murdock [:Exactly. You're an idiot if you go in and you and you're confused at that moment. You kinda understand seeing neighborhoods, what the signs are. You know what yes and no means on this thing. Don't give me this crap.
Steve Palmer [:That you don't know what's up.
Norm Murdock [:That you were
Steve Palmer [:I wasted my vote because it was confusing.
Norm Murdock [:I mean, it was a story made to make a story about the the confusing writing about issue 1. Totally understand it was just in support of that. I was kinda surprised that it it went that way but that just burned me. Listen, I've gone, you've gotta be kidding me. You're an idiot.
Steve Palmer [:Yep. Well, look, my outrage we've already talked about. I I this Hitler rhetoric and the stuff coming out, I just find it, coming from news sources, and it just makes me question all the all the more, the media intent. And, look, everybody knows I'm not a complete apologist for Trump. And, you know, I but it just seems so patently, contrived. Yeah. And, I just like you said, Norm, I'm sick of it. And maybe it hit me harder because I'm just so sick of all this crap.
Brett Johnson [:I'm sick of it.
Steve Palmer [:And and then you I finally what dawned on me is that everybody sort of made up their mind anyway.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. You
Steve Palmer [:know, it's like Oh. This is just nonsense at this point.
Brett Johnson [:Hasn't a third of Ohio already
Steve Palmer [:already voted? Yeah. So so I
Norm Murdock [:haven't heard a
Steve Palmer [:number yet, but I know that those are reporting North Carolina's a lot of numbers are coming in because again, that's storm related situation there.
Norm Murdock [:But yeah. Anyway Yeah. This is like me going into a sentencing when the judge has already signed the entry, and everything else is
Steve Palmer [:just grandstand. And and this is like I I I just find it outrageous.
Brett Johnson [:Well, I'm gonna prove that I'm a broad minded person, here. Just, you know, like, I don't agree with a single thing LeBron James probably thinks. I I mean, like, probably nothing. But I wanna commend him and his son. I think this is super cool that they played together in a in a in an NBA game on the same team. Right? I I I mean, that's off the hook. And and the the precedents for that are pretty pretty small. Like, I remember there was, I think, one game, the Cincinnati Reds had Petey Rose brought up from the the farm system, the son of Pete Rose, and they got to play in a game together.
Brett Johnson [:Alonzo senior and Alonzo junior racing in Indy cars together. The the the Petty family may have done the all time, the biggest thing where they had Richard, the grandfather, Kyle, the son, and Adam, the grandson, altogether in a NASCAR race. So I just wanna say to Ohio's LeBron James, hey, man. That is super cool. I'm not gonna get political at all except to just say, listen. I can set that aside and acknowledge that you're a great dad, apparently, a great dad, and congratulations on Bronnie and you being on the same team and playing together. Mega cool. Mega cool for Ohio.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Coolness, it it looks as though what we give our kids for their lost teeth when you lose a tooth. You know, I don't know what you what did you get when you were a kid? Quarter. Quarter. Me too. Now the well, okay. I'll run them percentages.
Steve Palmer [:You're not going here.
Norm Murdock [:The 2 most common amounts to give children or grandchildren for a tooth is a dollar or $5 at 26%. This is from the affordable dentures and implants research, whatever.
Steve Palmer [:Of course.
Norm Murdock [:That's followed by that's followed by 10% of Americans who give $2 and those who give nothing or $10 both at 7%. Some give nothing.
Steve Palmer [:Nothing. You lose your tooth. You don't get anything.
Norm Murdock [:Get anything. It's like Yeah. I don't know. Think that was an option anymore. It's like, wow. I think we gave kids a buck. I think we did.
Steve Palmer [:Maybe I had a $5 by the end. We we got quarters. Maybe dimes. Exactly. I don't know.
Brett Johnson [:Well, when you get old and lose teeth, do they deal?
Norm Murdock [:Exactly. The nursing home administrator puts in.
Steve Palmer [:Alright. Well, look. I'm I'm, call me Oscar the Grouch this week. I don't have anything really I was, very hopeful about. Mostly because I was busy at the office all week, not doing much. So I'm gonna skip my something wonderful. And but maybe I'll have something, like, really wonderful next weekend or next week. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. We'll see.
Brett Johnson [:Double wonderful next week.
Steve Palmer [:Double wonderful. You've got Halloween
Norm Murdock [:to look forward to. Yeah. You know? Maybe maybe that could be a good thing maybe. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:So alright. Common sense ohio show dot com. We've been coming at you live now for a few weeks. It looks like some of the numbers are up, so we appreciate your, your participation. We appreciate you downloading, watching, liking, subscribing, sharing, whatever you do on these socials. My word. So we we love it and keep doing. If you got a question, if you got a topic you want Norm to debate with me or Brett, or just kick around and discuss, Or even better, you wanna phone in and you think you got the chops to hang with us here at the round table either virtually or in person at 5:11.
Brett Johnson [:One little request, Steve? Yeah. Hey. Hey, people. Come on. Go on YouTube. You gotta you gotta listen to Steve and Norm's little composition. Pluff the magic pollster. Come on.
Brett Johnson [:We put some effort into that.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. I spent about 5 minutes mastering it and mastering it. So look. Other news, there's lots going on at Channel 5 11. Yours truly. Check out my other podcast, Lawyer Talk Off the Record, and you can just search Lawyer Talk Off the Record or Lawyer Talk podcast.com. Lots of good stuff. If you got legal questions, if you got legal topics you want me to cover sort of outside the realm of Common Sense Ohio, happy to do it, and I do it there all the time.
Steve Palmer [:Great stuff happening there. So this is Common Sense Ohio signing off live, where we are coming at you right from the middle in Ohio each and every week.
