The crossover event of our dreams! Joanie Kraut and Kendryx Linscott from Women in Gaming International (WIGI for short) join me for this week's episode. Listen as we dissect what WIGI is doing to both improve and help women get into the gaming industry, talk about how conferences can be a really useful tool, and learn how to brag about ourselves.

Episode Resources:

https://www.getwigi.com/

Welcome to the meta woman podcast we address the

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I'm so excited to introduce our guest this week. I love having

an episode with multiple guests. I think it's really fun to

bounce ideas off each other. This week we have Joanie Kraut

and Kendricks Lynn Scott, from women and gaming's international

aka wiggy, which is the most fun acronym I think.

Wiki is a nonprofit with a mission to cultivate resources

to advance economic equality and diversity in the global games

industry. So Johnny and contrix, welcome to the show. I'm so

excited to have you guys. Thank you for having us. Yeah, I mean,

I get it, I get it. Just start. Could you guys just give me a

little, a couple sentences from your background? And who you

are, what your stories are?

Sure, absolutely. So I'm Joanie. I'm the CEO at wiki. I started

as a CFO about two years ago, two and a half years ago now.

And I just transitioned to CEO just over a year ago now. And

it's it's been an amazing journey just coming through the

games industry and kind of seeing the different

inequalities and then finding this amazing group of people who

are also having those shared experiences and being so excited

and empowered to empower the next generation of leaders and

just finding ways to to help normalize women femme presenting

and non binary professionals in the global gaming industry. It's

it's, it feels like fun more than work. So really excited to

be part of the team.

And I'm Kendricks I'm the CMO over at wiggy. Which Yes, every

time I say it, I'm like getting with you with it. And everyone

just go stop and just like shoot me way. But anyway, my pronouns

are they them. I've been in gaming and esports for almost

seven years now. I started as an esports, journalist way back

when following my passion of Dota. Two actually, God knows

every time again, a conversation Dota two is the best game in the

world, let me tell you about it. But besides my love of Dota, I

had a real big passion for social media marketing, prior to

entering the games industry. And so I spent a long time proving

myself having to overcome barriers have overcome struggles

that were non existent to my men counterparts in my jobs. And

I've worked a very long time to get to a place where I can work

with an organization like wiggy, where we work on that

inequality. While we work on ensuring that women non binary

and femme presenting people have the same opportunities as men.

So I'm really happy to be part of the team. I also again, we

are Joanie, it is more fun than it is work. But I think when you

love something so much, or when you have a passion for like

games, or esports, or inequality, or making it easier

for everybody else, it truly doesn't feel like a job. So I'm

just happy to be on the team and be working on projects that we

have coming up.

I love it when people love what they do. We always hear about,

you know, burnout, and everyone's tired and all of

that, which is also true for sure. But it's so nice

refreshing when there's a perspective of people who are

just really excited by the work that they do. It's so cool. So

speaking of that, I know you guys offer several different

programs, ways to get involved things that you kind of push out

to your audience. Can we just kind of briefly go through those

and what they do? Oh, man, I'm so excited. So when I started

out wiggy, we were very focused on in person networking events,

which was amazing and impactful and great. But I come from a

nonprofit background. And so I was just like, we could be doing

so much more. And so this year in 2022, we are so excited to be

launching over 26 separate programs that are focused on

creating that that empowerment that strategic normalization and

really just pushing people forward. So we have a power

leveling series that is the first Wednesday of every month.

It's focused on really

empowering people to learn from a workshop and interactive

workshop. It's intentionally very closed. So it's something

you have to register for. It's a zoom link that we are keeping

that conversation very kind of buttoned up. It's not recorded,

and it's very much intentionally meant to be this as a safe space

where you can ask every single question you can get specific

advice from these amazing industry professionals. And it's

really creating that that open opportunity to

to learn and to grow, and to ask specific questions to your

specific instance, we also have the Get in the game program

Kendricks you talk about that one. It's my favorite program.

I'm always excited when you pass that ball over flakes. I'm just

always ready to talk about it. So again, the game program is

basically a micro mentorship program, where we have

applicants apply to go to basically a convention or

networking events. So things we went to ESI last year, but more

importantly, it was actually edX. This year, we're going to

ESI GDC, dice, hacks a couple other places, and essentially

mentees apply to get in. And then once they're accepted, we

have three mentors go with it go with them to an event. And at

the event, they teach them things like networking, how to

talk to people what to bring with you to go to a booth if

you're, you know, a designer, and you want to get a job at

Indy booth, or if you are a marketing professional, how do

you go like, who do you talk to at a booth? Or who do you talk

to at a networking event, we equip them with everything that

they need. And then it's runs typically, three to four days, I

would say depends on the networking or the convention,

we're going to our eG x one that we did in October actually had

an 80% higher rate after the after the actual get in the game

program. So I think it was, quote, we could be wrong. Joanie

might correct me, but it was two weeks after the program, half of

the people had jobs, so three of them. And then two weeks after

that, another two people got full time jobs. So we had five

out of the six individuals had full time jobs after the getting

game program. So has a huge success rate. It's also a lot of

fun, you actually like you get to go to an event like it's paid

for your flights, your hotel, the tickets, everything is paid

for. So you just go as an individual. It's really a

passion project. For me, this one in particular, because when

I started in esports, there wasn't that opportunity to like,

go to event if I wanted to go cover an event to try to get

noticed. And like write an article or do the interviews, I

pay for everything myself. And like as a broke student. That

was a lot of money that I was spending to go to this event and

it was airfare and it was tickets and it was hotel and it

was food. So the fact that we can offer this to mentees to go

with us and like actually experience the event and get

that experience is like out of this world for me. But I'll

stop. There's also another really cool program that we have

coming up Joanie, which like tech with the step us program, I

think, I think that I get in the game program, too, is still so

amazing, because it was amazing to watch these women go just

just by talking to them at breakfast before the conference

and saying, Okay, now you need to go get 1010 business cards at

the conference today. And they're just like, No, I can't I

can't talk to 10 people, I'm not going to ask somebody for a

business card, I don't want to waste their time and just re

changing that that perspective of No, you're not wasting their

time, they're so lucky to be introduced to you go and talk to

these people. Because this is a huge opportunity for both of

you, if you get hired, that's an opportunity for the company to

work with you. That's an amazing thing for them. And just kind of

reframing that perspective, before they went into a

conference. I was selling contracts earlier. Every time I

before I speak, I go in my head and I go, wow, I really suck at

speaking this is gonna be terrible. And then I started

speaking, and it's terrible. And it's yeah, obviously. So if you

if you just reframe before you start speaking, you know, it's,

it's so impactful. And so amazing. So watching these

people grow in this short, incredibly short time period to

the point that they got, you know, not only a networking

event, they got a business card, they got the you know, follow

up, how do we follow up? Let's make sure we follow up with

these business cards. How do we make this now part of our

network and then using our network to get a job it was, it

was really amazing to to really see that. So that is awesome,

because one of the biggest things that we talk about on the

show is imposter syndrome and the whole Yeah, so I'm wasting

their time is such a huge part of that. And I truly wish that

someone had sat me down when I was getting ready to leave

school and done this. And I think that I was at a university

where there's tons of networking opportunities, but I never knew

how to follow up. Having a specific goal is so good. And

just teaching people how to leverage all of that is it's

because it's really not that hard once you know. But the

barrier to knowing feels so high when you're constantly putting

yourself down. So I love that you address the whole problem

and not just hey, go to a conference. Right, right. Yeah,

good luck. Bye.

That's so great night. I hope that this can be a model like

for in and out of the gaming industry because that's the kind

of stuff that's for young adults. I feel like it's so

important because this is stuff I've missed out on right. I know

from personal experience like oh my god listening to you talk.

Oh, I wish I had that. Yeah, I feel like our whole programs

portfolio this year was really built around. I wish I had known

X when I started in my career or when I was trying to get from

entry level to mid manager or manager to C suite. I wish I had

known this and then it's like cool let's do a program on it.

Let's have a panel on let's have a conversation around it. And

and it's not even just just knowing but having the

confidence to do it. Once you do know it like you can read

All the self help books in the world, but if you don't do the

thing, it's not really helping you. So, Kendricks always posts,

you know, on Twitter like heading to wherever, so you

know, like a week in advance that they're heading to a

specific event. And then once they're there, they're at

whatever. And I was like, bounce off support.

So it Yeah, yeah, and starting new conversations, because then

people know you're available, and you're there. And then they

can reply and be like, Hey, I'm here to let's let's talk about

potential partnership, or collaboration or job

opportunity. One of my favorite things was also just seeing them

also, like, come together as like a cohort. Like, I went to

university, I had my own cohort, like we did all the classes

together, we knew each other, we studied together, it was like,

three years of all we did together was like, we knew each

other inside and out. And what was really nice to see is, over

the three days, like they became their own cohort, like they were

like, we would message the group on Discord and be like, whereas

everyone, and like no one would answer, and we would see them

messaging each other in a separate conversation that they

had started. And we're like, okay, success was made, because

they're now like their friends. They're their colleagues.

They're also people in their own network in gaming esports. So

they have those people in their corner, which is the most

important thing that I stressed getting into the industry. But

it was also like, hey, could like someone pay attention to us

as well? Because like, we like to go to lunch? Because we're

hungry.

That's so funny. It's the student becoming the master very

quickly. Yes. Yeah.

I know, there's a couple more programs, I would love to hear

about those. Obviously, absolutely. So great.

So the mentorship program, we are going to do one quarterly

and 2022, which we're very excited about. The first one is

in February. And it is a program focused on really just creating,

it's actually two programs in one. So the first program is

teaching a mentor how to be a mentor. And the second program

is the actual mentor mentee relationship. So having

different opportunities to listen to and learn from and

network with different industry professionals. And really having

those again, those specific questions answered, what what is

it that you are trying to accomplish? What is it that you

want to get out of this program, really setting those goals, and

then making sure that people are attainable for reaching those

goals? Again, a lot of times it's it's what I didn't know,

and the people who are the mentors know, so we can kind of

help you get to the next level. So

Kendrick, you want to take stepless? Oh, yes, that was

that's coming up, I love that I get the ones that are coming up

sooner.

So the staffers program is like a micro Summit is kind of how I

explained it. So it's basically three days is our is our one

coming up. So it's a three day, four hours, the first two days

and then five hours the second day where we have a bunch of

panels. And essentially they focus on one particular program.

So the one that we have coming up is

I don't know if I'm like, when does this come out

on helping people get jobs in esports. And partnering with an

amazing organization to run this program that will be announced

shortly.

That was perfect teamwork. And essentially, what it does is

it's free to attend. So you basically show up to the Twitch

channel, you listen to panels, you have what this periods where

this q&a is, and then it moves on to the next panel. And the

whole idea is to talk about one particular brand or program that

we've partnered with that explores one aspect of the

gaming and esports industry. And so we have one coming up, it's

actually the end of this month. I really love these because

they're a way of attending and getting that like kind of close

interaction with panelists in a virtual way. I know COVID is

still wrapping and while some people travel like, like I do,

it's not accessible for everyone. So the staffers

program is a nice way to have a quarterly micro summit where you

can meet new people see new experiences, and also get

familiar with new brands you might not have heard of.

Yeah, and then we have open world dialogue, which is an open

conversation also on Twitch as a second Wednesday of every month.

And it's it's creating more of an open conversation. So just

anybody can join, there's no registration required, and

really finding ways to to interact with our community and

answer questions. We do have that very heavily monitored, to

make sure that the conversation stay stay positive and

constructive. But it's a really cool opportunity to again, just

have these industry professionals kind of speaking

to their experiences, and what they learned from those

experiences to help the next person maybe not go through as

much or know how to advocate for themselves if there is a

situation.

And then our networking events

go, I just I love I love the things that are in person and I

love the virtual in person things too. But so our

networking events really focus on creating safe spaces where

you can network where you can meet people or you can basically

get together with colleagues in the industry in some capacity.

So whether that's like an after party

Which we did at PAX unplugged, whether that's our after party

at GDC that we did think it was two years ago because it was pre

COVID. These events really focused on creating spaces where

women non binary and femme presenting individuals can

network and meet other people. I know that a lot of times,

especially when I was just starting out the industry, you

would go into an after party, or you would go to a networking

event, and it would be like 98% men, and it would be really

intimidating to feel confident and not have imposter syndrome

and also feel safe and also feel like your voice is heard. And so

we create these spaces, these networking events where women

non binary representing people could do just that. They're my

favorite one of my favorite things of this whole thing.

Because it really makes you feel like you're part of the crowd

and part of the industry and gets gives you that opportunity

to like exchange the business cards and meet people that are

perhaps outside of your lane in the industry. So if you're a

marketer, maybe you can meet some game devs if you're Game

Dev, maybe you're meeting some CEOs or CFOs it's just a great

way to meet people in the industry.

And then we also have, okay, oh, I was just gonna say, I will

know that you said you've already said twice what your

favorite thing is. I know I have so many favorites. My it's a

good thing. It's a good thing. Yeah, I just I like that again,

I liked I like to hear when people really love what they do.

And yeah, Johnny, I'm sorry for cutting you off. But I talk

about your podcasts, right? Yeah, oh, God, not mine, I would

I can't get the conversation going. The the cheat code

podcast is very much focused on again, creating those

conversations with industry professionals, and was focused

on a specific topic to really get that engagement. Those are

also streamed on Twitch and then uploaded to Spotify and YouTube.

So the most important thing with all of our programs is that they

are all completely free to attend to be part of to register

for and really creating that opportunity. You know, the

biggest discrepancy we're seeing is that certain people are paid

underpaid. And so we want to give those underpaid people the

opportunity to learn and to grow as you would if you had a bunch

of money to throw at your career. And so that's really one

of the biggest things, everything, our networking

events, our mentorship program, everything that we offer is

100%. Free to our community. Yeah, getting that equal footing

is definitely super important. One of the things about this is

I know you guys focus a lot on the fence, which is really cool.

I am someone who has not always known what I can get out of

conferences, or panels or things like that. So can you tell? Can

you talk a little bit more and kind of tell the audience a

little bit about why events like this have an impact and how

people can take advantage of them in a better way?

My guess, is my second favorite thing.

Yeah, I see. So like not to hearken back always to like what

happened to me when I started an industry. But I think there's a

big portion of like visibility that plays into why we do these

networking events and why we attend these conventions. When

you start in the industry while while esports and gaming is very

much online, and it's very digital, it can feel like your

one voice in in 1000s, like hundreds of 1000s. And so

finding people or seeing organizations that you can be a

part of that can feel can support you can feel like it's

just a sea of people like where do I find an organization that

is going to help me? Or where can I find resources that are

going to help advance my career? Where am I going to find a

networking event where the focus is making it safe for everybody.

And so by being visible conventions and conferences, you

kind of start to part the sea start, you start to stand out

and you start to become a beacon for people to find you. I mean,

one great example is I think PAX East, which we're going to in

April has like 300,000 attendees is like pre COVID. Those were

the numbers. So 300,000 People means that, let's say 20% of

them walked by our booth just like a number I'm pulling out

it's not accurate, but I'm gonna go with it. If only 20% That's

still 20% of 300,000, which I'm sure Joanie can do the math, not

the math person here. It's a lot of people that see and out of

that percentage of people, an X number of them will be women,

non binary femme presenting individuals, which they will

then gravitate and be like, Okay, well, maybe that's a

resource that I can go back to. That's the whole reason that

people have like swag booths and business cards and signups is

because we want people to be able to we want to be that

resource for people we want to make people feel less alone we

want to make to help them with their careers, right. That's the

whole purpose. So besides being lots of fun and getting to be my

very, very extroverted self can conferences and networking

events are a way of parting the sea and being a beacon for

people in the industry. And then building your network but also

having that buddy system I always say I can logic myself

out of anything because I will just get so in my head I can

make it seem like the worst idea or I can make it seem like the

best idea depending on how much alcohol is involved. So I

definitely that's very real.

So if there's if there's an opportunity for me to go by

myself, I know when I went to dice, the first time I went

right before the world closed, I was so excited to be there. And

there were so many amazing people. And I just got really in

my head of like, man, they're not gonna want to talk to me, or

what would I even say? Or if I went to go introduce myself, how

would I even do that? And thankfully, Amy Allison was

there. And she is on our board of directors. She's been with

wiggy, almost as long as I've been alive. And she's just

amazing. And she's so extroverted. But she also is, so

you want to know me, you want to know me just as much as I want

to know you? And she has that mentality of like, why not have

an extra friend? Why wouldn't we be friends? Like, why? Why

wouldn't we talk to each other, and, and kind of walking into a

conference with that person, it helps me so much. And so that's

now my Kendrick,

kind of in a similar mindset, where they're constantly just

like, Let's go talk to this person, because they would be

amazing if we could partner with them for X, Y, or Z. Or I feel

like there's a potential here. And I think it would be at least

worth a conversation to see if there is a way to collaborate

and changing your mentality from I want something from you, too,

I want to see how we could work together, it's really amazing.

So we want to be that for people, we want to be your

buddy, we want to, we want to create that buddy system for you

and create that confidence in you to then now go and start

that conversation, even if you're if you're by yourself.

So I think that's a really good point. And that's something as

I've been, you know, just started this podcast. But as

I've been getting into it, one of the most beautiful things

about it is that there hasn't been a ton of people who have

looked to be overly competitive, which I really appreciate.

Because there's no way we're all going to win if we're all

fighting each other. And I would rather us all win. And when it

comes to that kind of collaboration, have you guys

have felt kind of the openness of the gaming community, I sort

of switched industries here from tech policy into gaming, and it

feels much more open and much less closed off. But um, you all

have been in gaming for longer. So I'd love to, to know what you

think about that. And that's obviously, there's always a bad

portion in the good, but I want to stick to the good portion.

This is the hardest question. Um, it's hard. Because when I

started, I gotta keep saying this. When I started in the

industry in the day, back in the day, I used to go to Bandcamp, I

don't make me use that reference. And basically, it was

really hard, because there weren't a lot of women in

positions that I could look up to when I first started. And

this was like a very truthful thing in Dota, there was maybe

two casters at the top level, and then a couple more Dota I

was like, wow, yeah, like, that's an OG move. That's tough.

Oh, gee, that's how old I am now. But it was really

challenging, because there one wasn't people to look up to. So

there wasn't like, and I and I did something very different. I

focused on interviews. And so I didn't want to be a caster. I

didn't want to be any of that stuff. And there wasn't anyone

doing what I was doing. So it was hard because other women in

the industry felt the competition because there were

so few of us that it was like, Oh, if I don't get this gig, or

if they get the gig, that means I don't get it. Or if they get

the money, I don't get it. And there wasn't a lot of like,

camaraderie, I would say. And that slowly shifted. So slowly,

over time, it became less about like, everyone's got their own

piece of the pie and it became more about like sharing the pie.

Like Whew, I heard this really cool opportunity came up or let

me put you in the running for this position. I think you'd be

amazing for it. And so it shifted but it took a long time.

And so I'd say like in the esports industry women are

getting more supportive of each other same with like non binary

of which there's very few but we we kind of like group together

now it's like these groups of people kind of come together and

we have these discord channels and we like send each other all

these job postings and we're always like, we're all the each

owns cheerleaders, which is really nice. But I'd say like,

as a whole, I hate mention this person's name, but like Thorin

is a great example of like someone who's caused a lot of I

don't know if you can slay on this so a lot of shit over the

past like day and a half of just really being a very toxic person

at the top and is so well known that the toxicity almost like

leaks down it gets a trickle down effect if someone at the

top is that toxic towards women, it just it just trickles down

because it empowers everyone else to be that toxic. And so

yeah, the the camaraderie might be there more. But the industry

as a whole still isn't as accepting and still isn't, like

rooting for women and non binary people to succeed, which is

tragic, truthfully. But so it's kind of like that that thing you

talked about it's positive where we're seeing the women and non

binary and femme presenting people get together and

cheerlead each other on but then the industry is still hasn't

like caught up to where we are. And then Microsoft's another

really cool thing about wiggy is that we have an amazing team of

allies. And so one of you know, one of our biggest things that

we were founded on was this, this group of allies that were

like

Do the thing we fully support that we think it's amazing. And

we actually had a conference when we very first came into

fruition and it was, you know, meant mixed gender panels, and

everybody was welcome. And it was very open to everyone. And

that's something that we're trying to put out there, again,

is like, it's not just women, I know women is in our name. But

it's not just women that we are supporting. It's not just women

that we are trying to amplify, we really want everyone to have

an equal opportunity. We're not anti men, we're pro everyone.

And that's, that's really the biggest focus that we have, you

know, even in our networking events, in our panels, that our

discussions, it's not that it's only women, but it is more

centric to the idea of, you know, things that were faced by

women. But you know, having things in common with everybody

who's in a diverse category, everybody who's been othered is

kind of the empowering piece that we're trying to really lift

up and empower those people to to have the ability to self

advocate or have the confidence to, you know, know when

something is wrong, see when something is wrong and say

something and how are you an actionable ally? And how do you

make sure that you are making an impact? You know, we always say,

if you don't say anything, you're still taking a stance,

like, how are you making sure that you are advocating for

yourself and advocating for everyone else who has been

others to get those equal opportunities. So it's, it's not

turning away from the negativity, it's not turning

away from the toxicity, it's truly trying to eliminate it and

to, to find ways to take it on and get rid of it. So be the

change you want to see in the world.

That's a good, that's a good point. Because I've said the

same thing on this podcast several times. And we were on

the metal woman podcast, but I certainly see this more as a way

to have conversations about the gaming community as a whole.

What I find, I guess, sad about that is that I don't like having

to say things like, oh, men are welcome. Because, you know,

I don't like that being male is just the default assumption. You

know, it's like if, if it says, Woman, then you're going against

the default. And you have to be like, sort of extra careful

about inviting other people like, no, no, why don't we just

assume that there is no default, and that you can be welcome in

lots of spaces, provided that you are an open person who is

kind to others? It's just, it's kind of a, it's been sad to me

to have to sort of explain that away. Like, I know, we're a

better woman podcast, but it's not just for women. You know,

it's like that, and that's something that I'll continue to

do. And it's conversations to push for sure. But it just it

does make me sad, like, No, you got men can be here. There's no

rule. This isn't like little rascals. No girls loud. But

yeah, I don't know. It's just it's sort of sad to me that I'm

always having to explain that. I don't know if you all feel that

way, too. So when I first started out, we he and it was

very much women in games International. And people would

say, Okay, but what if I'm a trans woman? Or what if I'm, you

know, not what if I wasn't born female. And I was always like,

of course, students still be welcome more women and allies.

And so I felt like women and allies covered everybody,

because either you are a woman or you're an ally. But sometimes

there is this other piece where it's, you're not a woman, you're

maybe you're non binary, maybe you're,

maybe you're both, maybe you're neither, you know, like maybe

you you don't want to be put in a box to say what you are, and I

still want you on my team. And I still want to empower you. And I

still want to encourage you. And so it's not even just the name,

it's the feeling. And so that's why we're trying to create all

these programs, because even though you can walk in the door,

do you feel included? When you walk in the door? Do you feel

like you are welcome? When you walk in the door? Do you feel

like you're part of the conversation? And if you say

something, do you feel equitable in that conversation? Or do you

feel like you're dismissed because you're not a woman? And

that was that was really the biggest shift, I think, from

kind of taking things over. As you know, we always said women

and allies, but now it's, it's more inclusive in our wording

and trying to make sure that, you know, if you do come to this

thing, and you have something to say, please say it because we do

want to hear from you. And we do want to learn from you. And I

don't care if you identify as a woman or not, it's that was

never my intention. It was really to empower these, you

know, just the entire other community and really create that

equality within the games industry, which which truly

means everybody. Yeah, and I think that that's a good way of

building a community around that when it comes to actually kind

of transforming the industry.

How are you thinking about getting people into the right

careers to make those changes? What else would you like to see

what opportunities are kind of lacking? And we've talked about

how the industry has improved, but obviously, there's a long

way to go. What do you think that looks like from your guys's

perspective? It said your guys again, by the way, and I keep

trying to say not to say that I'm such a you guys are and I've

not been able to work that out of my vernacular yet, but I

promise I'm working on it.

Um, I spend a lot of time when I'm not working. I'm thinking

about what needs to change. And then and I think one

aspect that I, I always keep coming back to is this idea of.

So obviously, my background is very esports focus. So when I

say esports, I do also mean like the larger gaming industry as

well, but my experience is, is a lot of esports. So I speak to

that often. But the hiring practices, the diversity on

teams, the lack of leaders who are women, or non binary, or

trans men or trans women, or lgpd, just like, there, there's

such a lack of diversity in all aspects when it comes to upper

management, or hiring practices and teams in general, that, as

much as we want to see the diversity, there's this like,

awkward barrier, and like, that's why a lot of our programs

exist is to really remove that barrier, right? If the barrier

is you can't financially afford to get to convention, get in the

game program exist. If your barrier is you are unable to

take off time to go to a summit or go to a conference, we'll do

digital ones, right. So there's a lot of like trying to remove

those barriers. But there's this lack of wanting to shift that

mentality when it comes to like the higher practices and upper

management. And so I would really like to see that start to

shift, I'd really like to see companies and organ teams,

listen to what we're saying, and like not to be like, hey, hire

us, but like, hire us as di consultants, like, we're here to

help support you. We're here to help acknowledge what's missing

on your team, or help you identify how to fix those

missing pieces. There's lots of consultants, there's lots of

orcs who do this. And I think as much as we are trying to be the

change in the world, it also needs to be reciprocated, we

need to see start, we need to start seeing that change happen

on its own without us railing on the dollar all the time. Sorry,

I rambled a bit. But those are my feelings.

That's fine. I very much enjoyed hearing them. And sort of on

that note, I know this is a little bit of a prickly subject.

But you all did recently announced a grant from

Activision Blizzard. We all know why they've been in the news

lately. And I know that one of the things that's been going on

is a big demand for change the kind of change that you're

talking about. Do you think that this kind of ground level

movement can make it through to the top? And how can people who

are actually working at these big companies are or thinking

about getting into these big companies? make their voices

heard? And on the flip side, how can the companies make sure that

they're listening to those voices and improve this kind of

workplace dynamic that we have going on? That's really just not

serving the best interests of anyone at the end of the day?

Think creating that accountability and and creating

that accountability through truly identifying specific goals

and,

and where What do you want to see? So I feel like at one

point, people were just like, Okay, you need to hire more

people, you need to hire more diverse people. And then people

were hiring those diverse people and being like, Okay, check

done, leave me alone, I hired these diverse people. But they

were all entry level. They weren't being heard. They

weren't being seen. They weren't being supported. But the company

was like, Yeah, but we have a certain percentage. And that's

all you said you wanted. And so creating that accountability of

like, obviously, don't harass your employees, like check

dotnet that's, that's a big one that's from the state even. But

what do you do? How do you make sure that it's not just the

entry level employees who are then you know, asked to go get

coffee. And I know, I you know, what, I always I've been very

open with my you know, in earlier stages of my career,

just because I came from so little, I constantly felt like I

needed to prove myself I needed to prove that I belonged

somewhere I needed to prove that I I belonged in the room. And

even if I was just you know, standing there taking notes for

you, I needed to feel like I deserved that. Like, like I was

worth your time if I wanted to have a conversation with you.

And I constantly felt like I needed to say yes to every

project to take on everything that I possibly could to to show

that I was a valuable asset to the team. And that's not going

to get you anywhere. I was at a speech not too long ago, where

the woman said you you should never strive to be your

company's best kept secret. It's not good for you. It's not good

for your career. And then I've left different positions where

when I left, they had to hire three, four people to take on my

work because they had no idea how much I was doing because the

squeaky wheel gets the grease and I never squeaked. I didn't

want you to see me as a problem. I didn't want you to think that

I was overwhelmed. I didn't want you to think I couldn't handle

it because I was you know, whatever it was in my head

because I was the poor kid or because I was, you know the

woman or because I and so I constantly was pushing myself

without mentioning it without celebrating any of my

accomplishments without without speaking to the workload that I

had. And then when it got to the point where I did speak to the

workload, the feedback was like, Well, you've been doing it this

whole time. Why is this a problem now? And I want to train

people to

to not do that, I want to teach people that you need to

celebrate your accomplishments, you need to really reiterate

what it is that you're working on and and let your manager know

and and use that as a platform to get to the next level of your

career. So So what can companies do? Create that visible clear

pathway from entry level to C suite and show exactly what you

need to do to get to the next level? Have those regular check

ins make sure that there's equity in those conversations?

Are you taking notes? Is it something you can reference, I

remember having the most amazing job interview,

check in my annual check in raving, raving, raving, and your

pay raise is I was running payroll. So I happen to know my

pain race was the smallest in the company? Well, that's

because you get paid the least. And the company, like

basketballs make me feel better. You know, like, there's just a

lot of opportunities to just create that equality and and

what does that look like? And if there's no opportunity to get to

C suite, I think that's something you need to evaluate

and really take that into account as your as your business

model and your structure. Is that what makes the most sense?

I think, right now, companies are so overworked and there's so

much that they're doing in these studios have so many games and

things that they have to do. And now this is one more thing, but

it's like a vague thing that they don't fully know how to do.

And so we're trying to create that visibility. And that

accountability, we have a lot of research going into right now

creating a public policy around this and just having those, you

know, those specific attainable goals and, and percentages and

trainings that are that are out there that are available as

contracts were saying.

There's something that like really resonated with me, and

it's a little bit off the subject, but it's something that

I think we tried to at least I remember when we are Yeah. Oh,

my gosh, I can't think of the acronym. DGX. Wow, I was going X

GE and I was like, that's not it.

We were It was close. When we wrote the mentees part of it was

like hype isn't hyping them up in a sense. It's like oh my god,

you're amazing sweetie, like, Oh my God, but like truly like be

like, like, being that cheerleader, as I talked about

earlier. And I think that a lot of us have lost that sense of

like celebrating accomplishments. I used to think

that like celebrating a job promotion, or like getting a new

job, or like talking about like, something that happened, that

was good to me. I was like, no one wants to hear about it.

That's bragging. Nobody wants to be that person, like, no one's

gonna want to follow me, no one's gonna listen, that I got

in the habit of like not talking about my accomplishments,

because I was like, I would rather just be proud of my

accomplishments and like, not talk about it. And that's

something that like, I think we're actively trying to change

at wiki is like, encouraging the people who come into our

programs to talk about their accomplishments to talk about

completing a portfolio to talk about that new graphic they did,

or that's like the partnership that they secured, no one cares

that it's wasn't for any money. Everyone cares that you did it

and you like you set out you got the partnership. It's exactly

what you wanted. And that's, that's something to celebrate.

So, and I was a little bit off topic, but like, I think that's

something that we really, truly are pushing at wiki. And it

might not be like at the forefront of every program. But

it is something that we we are actively talking about.

No, that's extremely true. And I think that you're absolutely

right that women in particular, but it's probably a problem for

many people out there. Don't talk enough about what they do.

Where we definitely have this kind of ideal thing in Western

countries, aka the American Dream kind of thing was no work

hard, and you'll get what you deserve. And just put your head

down and do what you're told go above and beyond all of that

stuff. And it's definitely an encouragement of, if you work

hard people will notice and that's just patently not true.

Working hard is a good step towards achieving more. That's

definitely a piece of the puzzle. But there's so many

other pieces to that puzzle. And one of them is actually letting

people know that you've worked hard.

All silencing. Exactly, and that's something I've gone

through I was a college athlete. And when I graduated, all my

coaches, said, Oh, we're so amazed that you played so well.

When you partied all the time. I was like, What are you talking

about? I never partied. I was thinking that I was truly in the

gym, Friday and Saturday nights I play basketball getting shots

up like that was me. But because I was so effervescent and

bubbly, they just assumed it's like oh well, and my quieter

colleagues who were also in the gym with me and got so much

credit for getting in the gym on Friday and Saturday nights was

like I was there you guys.

And I like in bubbly and crazy a little bit but I'm still working

hard and that that was that lightbulb moment that you're

talking about contracts with? Oh, you have to say something

otherwise people make their own assumptions. And those

assumptions could be so wrong. It could be

really come back to hurt you. So I think that that was a good, a

very pro pro tangent, if you will, which was great. I do want

to talk a little bit about this big M word that we've all been

hearing about the metaverse.

I don't really exactly have a full picture of what the

metaverse is just yet. And I think that's one of the alluring

things about it. But I do think that anytime that a new industry

starts, there's such a chance to build it more equitably and

fairly, and sort of get rid of some of those things from old

systems that aren't necessarily serving us. So I would love to

hear if you all are doing any work in the metaverse what

you're thinking about what the metaverse what it means to you

what it means to diversity, inclusion programs and equality

and that good stuff.

I truthfully, I'm very skeptic of the metaverse, I sound like I

sound like a bloomer, it's fine, I'll set the title for now. And

I, I'm apprehensive, I feel like it's an opportunity to really

like as you said, explore that like, creating a more equitable

and more diverse landscape. But the same time, I'm skeptic

because it's Facebook, and Facebook doesn't have the best

track record

doesn't have the best like has never put forethought into this.

And so it's almost like I'm apprehensive. But I'm also like,

I don't really want to have to take on the burden of being that

person who's very loudly screaming once more in a

different industry. Why aren't things different? Like, to me,

it's like,

it's I'm not saying exhaustive, but I'm exhausted from doing it

in this industry. So it's like, like, volunteering myself to do

this in a different industry on a different platform that has

very clearly not put any effort in before feels like oof, it's

another mountain that I need to climb. And I don't know if I'm

well prepared for this fight yet. I think that like as an

organization, I think that will eventually move into the space.

And I think eventually it will be on our roadmap, but like

currently, I'm physically exhausted thinking about it. But

I think that once I start seeing what they're doing to truly make

that an equitable and diverse landscape, then I'll start to

like, adjust myself and our organization to enter into it. I

just, I'm hesitant being the first in that landscape because

of the history that's attached to it. Yeah, definitely, the

leadership leaves a little bit to be desired. I get that. Yeah.

When I first took over CEO, one of the first things I wanted was

to get out of just the video games industry and really focus

on esports, and tabletop and truly the global games industry

and like, really focus on every aspect of gaming and trying to

normalize women in every space within that within each sector.

I know with the metaverse, specifically with GamesBeat,

they just did a call for speakers. And I've been working

with Dina kind of there's a committee that we all work

together for women in games, and really trying to focus on making

sure that panels and conversations are very equitable

within not just, you know, the male perspective. And so it was,

it was kind of a

a lot to take on, just with regard to what does it mean? How

do we make sure that we are seeing equitable, there's a lot

of really amazing people in the space, who are non males who are

doing really great things with augmented reality, and virtual

reality and just video and digital universe creation. And

so is there an opportunity to make sure that those people are

also being seen and heard in this space? And as Kendrick

said, you know, it's, it's a lot right now. And it's it's very

exciting to see that there is so much opportunity to create that

equality. But again, it's usually a monetary barrier based

on the fact that who has the most money, who has the most

money to throw around at a new concept, who has the most money

to invest? And those are going to be the people who are

represented and heard and that's nine out of 10 times why it's,

you know, it's me becomes very male dominated, so

hopeful but hopeful, obviously. Yeah. cautiously hopeful. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think that's a fair place to be. It's such a this is

such a loose concept at the moment and, like you noted,

Joanie, there's lots of people who are working on different

things in the metaverse but I do think that unfortunately, it's

been overshadowed by good old Facebook

changing their name I also know for our listeners that we were

named the metal woman podcast way before Facebook decided to

change its name to true recall before it was cool.

Out of the trends, but Millennials now this is amazing

grads arrived we were cool before things were cool loving

the day that they announced it.

But we were in too deep at that point. You should just add

official somewhere

And then just jump on the bandwagon, like the official

Metaverse, women's finance or the metal of the podcast. Like I

think that's the way to go. Yeah, that's a good idea, little

to.

Sure.

So just to summarize really quick, for the for our

listeners, I think that we these programs are awesome. One of the

things I love is that you focus on things that people wish they

knew and provide a whole picture instead of just a kind of

singular resource or experience. You build a community for women

and allies to create a space where everyone can truly be

comfortable. We're all are welcome comes to the industry,

some change has been made, and there's a better collaboration,

but there's a long way to go. And focusing on removing

barriers, access, equity, that kind of thing can help. One of

the great pieces of advice that both of you have noted is that

you should strive to never be your company's best kept secret.

Shout out to the speaker who said that to Joanie, I think

that's a great way of saying it. You should be an advocate for

yourself, celebrate your accomplishments and use your

accomplishments as a platform to advance your career. And one

thing that companies can material lead do to create

change as to create visual and clear transparent pathways from

entry level to C suite. So those are just all our little

takeaways. One thing I love to end on with all of our guests is

a little moment of reflection. So if you all could just tell

me, we've talked about this a lot. But what is one thing you

would like to tell your younger self about getting into the

gaming industry and being successful?

Oh, gosh,

no, I'll go first, this time, that's only fair, um, wow.

It's gonna be a little bit sadder. I'm a PR, that kind of

person. But

eventually, all the pain and the strife and the barriers will,

will disappear. And you will be in a position that you can make

the changes that you want to see the industry.

I love that.

That was really bad. But

I would say,

Gosh, something I learned very early, really early on in my

career was to take everything from a solution standpoint. So

bringing not just a problem to the table, but at least two

potential solutions to offer. It's a great to identify a

problem and call it out as a problem. But make sure that you

have an end goal to focus on. Focus on the solution instead of

continuing to discuss the fact that there's a problem. So I

think that was always something that really helped me within my

career, especially if you if you do have something you want to

bring to a manager.

For Personally though, I think just be yourself. And it's okay

to be yourself. Even if yourself is a Star Wars loving Harry

Potter Loving World of Warcraft nerd. There were so many times

that I dressed or acted a certain way that cuz I thought

that was how I was supposed to and kind of looking back on

that. Now I don't think that you know, 20 years old, I need to be

wearing sensible shoes and, you know, slacks with an elastic

waistband, because that's that was the woman that I saw that

was successful. And I think that's also something that has

been huge that way he is really coming into my own comfort zone,

figuring out who I am rather than who I think I'm supposed to

be, or who I think other people want me to be. So that was

that's my biggest growth I think we should definitely focus on is

be yourself, even if you and yourself is very different from

someone else's self.

Oh, I love that. I think that's a great reminder. Thank you both

so much for coming on. Can you tell people where they can find

you if you want to be found?

If I want to be bad, I have never had that said that way.

And I absolutely love it. You can find me I'm happy to be

found. You can find me at Kendricks I'm your source. Okay

and dry X underscore on any social platform that exists. And

I my DMs are always open if you have questions, concerns or just

want to talk about the games industry DOTA or esports. I'm

here for all of it. So be prepared to hear about Dota

I am Joanie crowd on all platforms. I think on some of

them I have a period between my first and my last name because

I'm sorry taking Can you believe that? You can also find Wiki at

get Wiki on all social platforms and we are also at get wiki.com

Because getting wiggy with

that.

If you didn't want me to say it, you shouldn't have chosen that.

Now everyone's gonna be singing in after this podcast. They're

all gonna be like living it up. And then whenever when they hear

the actual song, like I knew what or that's really cool.

Isn't the name get wiggy it's best branding. Just yeah, it's

great breathing.

For our listeners, thank you so much for joining me. Don't

forget new episodes drop every Tuesday. Be sure

At the five star ratings and reviews, and check out the other

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For all the metaverse finance stories you could ever want more

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