women leaders need female friendships if they are to survive and thrive.

Julia Middleton 0:01

Thanks for listening to the women emerging podcast. Every week we put up a new episode with insights into leadership, practical leadership, seen through the eyes of women leaders of all ages and all sectors from right across the world. Our aim is for women to be able to say if that leadership I'm in don't forget to subscribe to the podcast and join women emerging on our website, women emerging dot all that women emerging dot all more fabulous free leadership content. Welcome welcome and welcome Julian Middleton expedition leader soon no longer to be the expedition leader because the expedition will be complete. And then we'll have to pull all the knowledge together and create an approach to leadership that resonates for women so that women who are emerging all over the world can use it, adopt it, take advantage of it. Enjoy it. Yeah. Today's episode is about female friendships. I just wanted to go back to three of the young women that I spoke to in January, because they when when I was talking to them, they use an expression called free male friendships. And it stayed with me. And I remember the last interview I did with Tammy, where she told me that I absolutely had to come back and do another episode that she would start on female friendships. Why? Because I do believe deeply that female friendships are absolutely essential to women leaders. And the second reason I'm going to come back to it is because as you're listening to this episode, we will have started our convening in the palace of Bellagio kindly supported by the Rockefeller Foundation. And we will have therefore met on the camera will be there, all of us working on an approach to leadership that resonates for women, all of us this extraordinary band of 24 women from around the world. So anyhow, let's start this episode with Timmy explaining why this episode had to happen.

Temi 2:33

I absolutely think he should. Because in my culture setting or how I grew up, we people always say something, let me try to put it well, as a woman, I don't like having female friends because the gossip the do this and do that while reverse has actually been the case for me. I have amazing friends like thinking about it right now. These are people that literally held me up at different times when you know, I was probably not feeling too good. These are the people who cheer me on that genuinely happy for me. And you know, it's really beautiful, because these are people I can be vulnerable with. And leadership is also about vulnerability, the kind of people that you also share your life with. They also share your experiences, your wins and losses that you share them with. And I think this is something lots of people do not talk about. And for me even studying some really, really amazing leaders that I know, that lead big companies in my country. One thing that I noticed about them is that they have close relationship with their female friends. And even their bosses were female, they become friends. And this before having great turnout on their revenues every year and it's just really really amazing to see how you know that kind of synergy can best results even in an organisation. So I think you should absolutely do it. Like it's something people do not talk about when you probably find the podcast on female friendship is probably about what's going on the negative sides and we need to shine the lights more on, you know, the positive side of our amazing female friendship. Like I'm so blessed with that. And I think is really, really amazing. Yeah, you should do.

Julia Middleton 4:20

To me, I'm convinced, I suspect most people are convinced. One of the things that was very interesting for me was that I began to realise that I've never really had sufficient cultural intelligence to actually understand this concept that friendships female friendships have to end once you get married in some parts of the world. You're in Sierra Leone. Next, I went to speak to Mina and of course, she said exactly the same thing from an Indian perspective.

Meena 4:56

The idea is that the daughter Is someone else's, from the minute she's bond. So they say like, but I'd have no idea. So like, just that idea itself, I think, where you just no longer have a sense of individual existence, which means there's really no need for you to actually have any friendships because you need to find satisfaction in your role as a wife, as a mother. And as a daughter in law. If you do have female friendships, then for you to have that without a certain purpose, like for example, you may have friends that you make through work or friends that you make through your children, or maybe someone that's your neighbour that you go to buy vegetables with. So then there's still a reason for you to really be interacting with that person. But this idea of a reasonless interaction, I think that's something that doesn't really exist. And also, it's it's a lot of work for you to maintain a friendship when you're constantly questioned and said, No, but you have to do all of these things before you leave the house, or why are you leaving the house? Who am I leaving with? And then the other questioning that happens about the person you're meeting and their moral standards? I think all of that just leads to this situation wherein you're like, Okay, I'd rather just not talk to anyone and not seek a friendship outside home, because it's just too much work.

Julia Middleton 6:19

So given this context, MENA female friendships must be very difficult to form. Why do you think they are so essential?

Meena 6:31

When leaders, they need a lot of care, and they need a lot of love, and they need a lot of kindness and forgiveness. And they also need a space to really unwind. Because if you take the position of a leader in general, it's a high stress job. And it often comes with high stakes. And where do you turn to, and when we think of women, I think we've discussed this in the last episode as well. But it's this idea that the modern woman, it's not that she's worked moved into the workforce. She does that, in addition to carrying the care burden. And while that disparity is something that we should work on, as a society, it's not going away anytime soon. And when you're a woman leader, it's difficult for you to manage those two lives. And I think friendships, both outside of your space of work are equally important as the friendships that you make with your colleagues and the people that you're working with in the same field. Because it's not just about creating a network to get ahead. In some sense, it's equally about what is what is it that's recharging you to come the next day to work and be the person that absorbs whatever your colleagues are saying, whatever the people who are working under you, or in your organisation are saying, because you kind of are like a sponge, when you're a leader, I think you're a good leader, you're often listening to people and giving them the time and space to figure things out and express themselves and also give them the room to make mistakes, and not, you know, and basically create a space for learning. So that means you are going to maybe bear the brunt of some mistakes that happen, or whatever it is. And I think it's exhausting. And it's difficult. And because we're told that there are only so many seats at the table for you, you anyway, feel like the world is gonna end if you make one mistake, where it's not like that for a lot of men. And where else are you going to turn to when you're in a state like that? Because, I mean, I'd like to believe as a child, I'm a kind child, but I mean, your children are not going to be there to listen to you when you have to unwind. And it's very often you don't your spouse is not going to understand these things. And also, I think important, most important thing is microaggressions behaviour, like microaggressions in the workplace are something that I just realised most men do not understand and they do not clock it. And those things can really make you question your self worth and your own judgement. And even if it's for that one thing, I think it's really important because you're in a decision making position, but every decision you make is scrutinised. Because you're a leader and then because you're a woman, of course. And I think the way that people behave when they behave badly, but you can't point out in that moment, what they've done is wrong. They start eating you up from the inside and I think the only places that I've been able to feel better is when I speak to my friends who are women because they listen to me. They don't gaslight me about it, and they make me realise that what I'm seeing is real. And of course, they helped me with it. But I think that one thing like that micro aggressive behaviour and big, big offices, in small schools everywhere. I think that's, that's one of the most important thing.

Yes, yes. It makes me think and it makes me rethink

the beginning of this meeting has just been about how women in India almost never have female friendships. They do. But it's under extreme amounts of pressure, often, and lots of lying and saying, I'm going here, but I'm actually going there. And I think that kind of behaviour is very common from the time that you're a teenager. Because if you say what you're actually doing to tell the truth, then it's often met with rejection. But there's a really beautiful word in Hindi Khalsa, Hailey and Sahelian, which is just talking about women and women femme. And I, I love that word. I think it's a really, really beautiful words. And I don't know, I don't think there's a male counterpart part to that. But this words, the Haley is so important, because it gives you that automatic sense of community, I think. And, yeah, I wanted to tell you that you've probably heard it from someone else.

So say the word I want to practice it say the word

for Haley. So Haley, Haley. Yeah. And so so so Haley is one friend and say, Hey, Leah is like the plural. So group of women friends. So heylia. Yeah, it's a really beautiful word. And, yeah, there's something magical about it. That makes me very happy.

Meaning your joy is is delicious. And so heylia is two. Very delicious. Next, I went to the other side of the world to Marga, other side of the world, still southern hemisphere, Argentina, I went to Marga, for practical advice on how to nurture and sustain these crucial elements of female friendships, maybe renamed them. So heylia. Margot, you have one of the strongest, longest, youngest, and most lovely group of female friends I think I've ever come across, tell us how you formed

when we met first year in an anatomy class, we are all doctors now. So it's been seven years. So we were, we all shared the same table in anatomy class. So we met actually studying dead bodies. That's not very fancy, but it's true. And then, after the years, we got to be very intimate with each other. And we built a very strong relationship between all of us. So we studied all of the careers together, every exam, we actually graduated on the same day. So how many other Have you we are actually 13? So it's a very big group of friends.

So you were doctors together, but you were also footballers together? If I remember rightly?

Yeah, only five of us. Actually, we won the championship of the tournament twice, so footballers.

So go on, Margot, what's the secrets,

I feel like them most important thing to have a very healthy relationship with another woman with a female friend, is to have build up a self esteem. And also to understand that the friendship is not a competition. It's nothing to do with that. Because I feel like from your generation, sorry.

The devil still was

what changed is that I feel like my mother and their friends feel more of like female relationships, like a competition, who is the best, who gets them in or like the the one that will support me and give me food and something like that, and he has changed a lot. And for us, it feels like we do not compete with each other. We are loyal to each other. We are a group. So every time one gets the better grade first. We know the role of everyone in the team. So we know who will get the better grade most of the times is the same person so we are not going competing with cars turning scatter, actually, no, I'm competing. And also, when she gets the best grade, we all feel like we did it together, we studied together, we all know kind of the same things we don't feel like because she got a better grade, she knows more than the rest of us, we are a group every. And when we won the championship, all of them were together, where it came to see us play football, and we all celebrate it together. So I feel the most important thing is having the self esteem to not having to compete with your friend, and be able to have that that kind of relationship where everyone wins.

Have you ever felt that it was gained that something happened that could bust it apart?

No, actually, never. No, no, no. I feel like of course, we had travel in time. But it's very important to talk about the things you that you get bother with with another person. And when you do that, with a very, like, in a very honest way, it's very easy to go out of it of the trouble. Give me an example. Well, I can only think of one time, we got into a fight because the group split to study for pathology for our exam. And we had like a very bad communication. So we didn't tell each other where we were at dieting. So a part of the group felt like the other part of the group left them apart. And so after that, we talked and it was actually missing, most of travel is missed under misunderstanding in the group of friends now. So when we talked about it got clear very quickly. So no big deal. You're all very different, aren't you? Very different. But I feel like that's a very, that's a good thing you mentioned because part of not competing with each other is that we are so different. So different, we all of us have something we are very strong and good at. But that is very different to the other person. So we kind of shine with our own things, you know, so there's no place for competition, which I think is the most important thing in female friendship. So

and when one of you gets a partner, does that? Is it not quite difficult for the partner?

Yeah. I feel like you should ask that to our partners. But you they it's like, we joke a lot about our boyfriend, we say, like, what did he do our boyfriend? So we,

we are your single? You mean your single boyfriend? Yeah.

Like, he goes to conquer us all, you know?

What do people need to know? They need to know, they need to know that you'll drop everything to be with them?

No, no, no, no, I think if I were, if I had to leave an advice for friendships, is that I always say, we always say live and let live, you know, like, you have to have a friend that is there for you. And that you can share your time and your feelings and your thoughts. But also you have to know that that person is not, does not absorb all your energy and is really dependent on you. So it is kind of a balance between the two. Also, I think it's really important to not judge your friends. I know we all do that all the time. I always say to them, I will judge you. But I will not tell you. Like, you know, in the sense that we all judge all the time because we can candidate. But it's important. Or at least for me, it's important to feel like I can do my life with my friends telling me the truth. And what they think of me only when I ask them to I don't like when I go out and someone is like what are you wearing? I don't like that. I'm like, Did I ask you, I didn't ask you, I'm wearing what I want. So shut up. I feel like if you start questioning your friends, actions all the time, it can be really tiring. And you also limit the other people's freedom. You know, in many groups, I read something really interesting some time ago that said that group of friends now I really, really hard because they have like this list of things you have to do like a checklist. If you want to be my friend and be part of our group. You have to be a feminist, and you have to vote that guy and you have to dress like this way. And all these things and if you don't agree With one, you're out of the group. And I think that happens a lot nowadays. So it's really important to let the people not to not put the checklist, you know, that people can be themselves, I'm really different than being the group and we can vote, whoever we want. And the only thing that puts us together is that we love each other. And we trust each other. And we like to be with each other, but not the way we dress. Or not the our political opinions, and not where we go to dance to, or our Instagram accounts and how they look. So I have a friend that always tells me she will be grateful with me on her life. Because once she got like something really weird happened with her family. I don't know what but she came to my place she called me and she came to my place and nicer Of course, come. And I never asked her. What happened. She came to my place. She was crying like crazy. So she had a shower, we drink a tea, we drink a tea, I told her let's watch a movie, like a feel good movie, like, let's watch her we bother. And that's it. Like, and I never, we never talked about it. And she always says like, then really feels like a friendship, you know,

do you have any rituals we did have

when we were studying? Well, the things like living together before an exam. But if we couldn't do that, we will be together every night before a big exam, we always add the same dessert that we really loved is like strawberries with chocolate. So we, we call it gala in Argentina, you know, we had to learn to feel like everything would be fine. Rituals, I feel makes you feel like everything will be fine. So if we do this ritual, and we do it together, we'll be okay. So no matter what is happening, we are together, we will be fine. And all of us feel like this friendship we have is a proudest thing we've done in our life. So when we graduated, we talked a lot that day, and all of us agreed that we were very proud to be doctors. But we were more proud to help to help build this group of friends. That is so strong and so healthy. I'm a modest when I say I'm really, really, really proud of this, it takes a lot of work. It's not something easy to build a group of friends.

But it sounds easy. When you talk

I know I know it sounds easy, maybe make it sound easy. But it's hard in a way. It's not hard it it takes work that most of the people don't do, I feel to have a group of friends that is so good. You have to go to therapy. Not go there everyone, really know yourself and know what you like and what you don't like, and what bothers you and what not. And that is a really hard thing to do. So because if if you don't know yourself so much, you start thinking that your friends did something that bother you, when in reality is not something your friends did, it's something that is going on inside you. So when we get into fights, we always tell each other like, remember that the thing that that is bothering you. It's your problem, it's not my so you have to know that everything that happens in life, you're looking at it through the lens of your own personality. So it's not reality, what you're seeing is what you're, it's your feelings you're seeing. So if you don't know that, I think it would be really hard to have these kind of relationships.

And that's what makes it hard. Yeah,

it's hard to work on yourself is not hard to build the relationship with another person when you have worked a lot in yourself.

Thank you Marga. At the beginning of this episode, we I think pretty well made the case for female friendships. I think you've added some really powerful secrets on how to to share them to form them to sustain them. I want to finish this episode by going back to Mina who introduced us to the word Suhaila. What you don't know is that Mina is not just anyone she's a partner's daughter, and apparently that is a member of the expedition, a totally beautiful member of the expedition. And as you listen to me now, you I will be as I say in Italy, with a partner and all the other women from the expedition, whom I've got to know, remotely now and worked really hard with for over a year. And this week, we are actually together physically. And it seems an extraordinary concept. Anyway, Mina had a last word for us.

I think your villaggio conference is going to be a big group of all your Saleya I think you will be, I think it will be I mean, honestly, my mother was telling me it's happening in this fort. Or like Castle Palace, I was just like, this is just the most magical thing ever. A big group of women in this old castle, talking about how to change the world. Like every fairy tale turn on its head, I

mean, are the pressures on now, we cannot let you or any women down now we have got to produce an approach to leadership that resonates with women. And one of the elements at the heart of it must surely be female friendships.

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