Botswana. Rebecca Binns said that she loved the expedition but that it not speak to her fully. It didn’t feel ‘like home’ So she took me home. To meet 7 powerful women leaders in Botswana, Priyanka Handa Ram, Tebogo Matenge, Rosalind Kwinje, Kelly Ramputswa, Pelonomi Venson, Joyce Isa Molwane, Sharifa Noor. And the result is this week and next weeks episodes. I asked each one “ if we are going to find an approach to leadership that resonates with women in Botswana... what must it address and not skip over?”

They told me about #botu and about #botswana where women are strong powerful and brave leaders not unlike the #corybustard the national bird of Botswana. It’s not really surprising in a country where 83% of families are lead by single mothers and they don’t just lead at home.

Julia Middleton 0:01

Julia Middleton 2:00

Rebecca, there's a reason why she wanted me to do this episode. Or now it's two episodes on Botswana. Tell us what that reason was?

Rebecca 2:13

Well I've been listening to the expedition since it started. And I love it. With each podcast. At each episode, I kept on feeling like I was missing something, and I couldn't quite figure out what it was. And then I started to pinpoint it with each episode. And it came down to a mere fact that it wasn't resonating with me, because I couldn't hear the voice of home, I couldn't hear the sounds of my people. None of these women truly know what it's like to be a woman in leadership, and still have to be feminine, at all points of time. So for example, if you get invited to a quarter, which is a gathering, a gathering with the chief, etc, you still have to dress feminine, in order to be heard in that voice, including if you are the chief herself. And I was like, they're not talking that voice that I know so well. That you are somebody of importance, you carry a voice that is followed. But unless you dress the part, you're not truly taken as seriously as you think. And that's what it was for me that was missing in the expedition.

Julia Middleton 3:41

It's interesting, isn't it, because it has turned into two episodes, the first one, which is today, which is sort of painting the picture. And it's a picture of powerful women, and a picture of powerful and successful women in a culture that has a long tradition of successful women, but then next week's podcast is two women to use their words, talking about the dance that you have to play, even if you are in a country where there are a lot of senior women. So it's been quite an experience for me too. As as we go through these two episodes, there are frequent references to Botu. So just Rebecca help people to understand when people refer to Botu what are they talking about?

Rebecca 4:37

Well, the word itself is a descriptive word, which is a very common trait that we have in Botswana. But if I was to hone it down, Botu represents a type of person who is humble. Some a character that is well rounded. A courageous individual, somebody who thinks it and breathes community. And a very selfless person, if I use the correct word is somebody who thinks about themselves, but thinks about community at the same time. So a humble individual, so you can have leadership and be humble at the same time. And I think that's what Botu represents, in my interpretation.

Julia Middleton 5:24

And it is a culture of the whole country. It's a culture of the history, it's a culture of the leaders. When is the word Botu used? Am I saying it right?

Rebecca 5:37

Yes, you're pronouncing very well. Botu is used quite a lot, and particularly when we are trying to bring us back, bring us back together as a community. So you'll hear commonly when there's maybe a little bit of strife, or there's a bit of a disagreement, just a little bit of like, before things go bad, you will start hearing this word that brings everybody home, and reminds us who we are, what type of people we are and where we come from, what are our roots? And once everybody has that mindset, the conversation changes to, to something where it's a collective patronism, that even if the people in the room were in conflict, we have the one thing that will always return us back and that is Botu. We can disagree. But we will continue to move forward.

Julia Middleton 6:41

Very apt that your clock should be striking just at that moment.

Rebecca 6:47

Even our clocks are timed well to Botu.

Julia Middleton 6:54

So we started by speaking to Priyanka and asked her same question, what does the expedition need to cover if it's going to resonate with you?

Priyanka 7:03

Two things for me that stand out in Botswana, and one is community and I cannot be blind to community and our role as women in that community. And the second thing for me very strongly in Botswana is our deep connection with nature. So those are two things that I think you know, informed, certainly my leadership. And when I look up to leaders in Botswana, I see that they've got this deep rootedness to their soil, their ground in Botswana, and then their community as well around, we've got the most stunning bear bag trees, and there's so much that comes out of the bear bag trees that is nurturing, that there's so much here that I think when you start to look at it, you have to look at it differently. And that is leadership for me in Botswana. Nothing is like it is in any of our neighbouring countries for so many different reasons. And you start to have you have to take a different perspective for all those reasons. And I think nature shows us that here teaches us that so for all the, for the more time I spend in nature anyway, the more I start to look at myself differently, and the world differently, and myself as a leader in my organisation differently, because I'm learning all of these things through these metaphors.

Julia Middleton 8:17

So what do you think you're learning?

Priyanka 8:20

I'm learning about flexibility. I'm learning about resilience, I'm learning about the permanence of change and the unpredictability of you know, what actually grows when you give it the right kind of environment, and how that goes against what you might have been taught. Certainly, I'm learning about, I think, for me, one of my favourite things and, you know, Rebecca, maybe you see this a lot on my social media is the Botswana sky. And this is, you know, coming back to Sunshine. And I think when I look up in the sky, there's so much I learn and I see again, for me as a leader, and there's a quote that I once heard about the sun that, you know, that says, even after all this time, the sun never says to the earth. you know, look at me, you owe me. And look what happens with a love like that, right? It lights up the whole sky, and I think that summarises Botswana. And what we as women often feel, as leaders, we have to do we have to we have to light people up, you have to care where caregivers were nurturing. And I think there is an element of truth to that, especially in Botswana. Botswana, women are strong mothers, we are, you know, most women, I think we did a census recently and I think one of the most staggering things that came out of the census is 83% of mothers in Botswana are single mothers. And that is huge. I don't know if any other country other than Botswana has that way. But when you think of that we're not just nurturing caregivers were strong mothers, right. And we are that son and we do give that out. unconditional light and love to raise our families or raise our teams or raise our organisations. And and that's, you know, that's what I'm learning by spending time in nature in Botswana.

Priyanka, I've got it, I understand nature, come back to community tell me more about that.

So my favourite Botswana phrase is motoki moto kobato, which means I am because you are. And again, I'm because everything I do, I love to link with nature, I'm going to link that back to nature as well. But it's community and it's showing interdependence. And I think that's what nature does, right? We exist in an ecosystem. And you've got to understand that whole ecosystem, I talked about trees as well. And yes, we're all individual trees in the organisation, but unless you look at us as a forest and understand the ecosystem of the forests, and the I am, because you are, you're not going to really be able to be an effective leader, you know, in Botswana, and we are deeply interconnected. We're also very small population in Botswana. So what what we do has a ripple effect on everybody around us. And it's being cognizant of that, that my action or inaction is, is not just tied to me and my immediate family or me and my immediate workplace. I, because I am the first kind of social enterprise in Botswana, I'm setting a trend and I'm inspiring other organisations I'm, you know, inspiring confidence, to other social entrepreneurs. And I don't think that that would be the case, if I existed, even just in Zambia, that that sense of, I am, because you are, or that kind of complex interdependence of community here is you have to take that into account as a leader, you're not just being a leader for yourself, you're being a leader for others, so that that service orientated leadership is again, something I think that's very unique to Botswana, I think there's an element of leadership in the corporate world where a western view of leadership may still find some resonance. But still not enough. Because even in the corporate world in Botswana, there, there's still a sense of how you got there, and what you're going to do with that seat, it's not just about leaving the bank. So I still think that, you know, there is an element of Western leadership, which is very much about my journey, me as a leader, and it's very egocentric. That for Botswana may not be enough, or may actually kind of hinder the potential of a leader in Botswana, if you start to look at yourself in that egocentric way, it doesn't allow the potential for true Botswana leadership to flourish then.

Tell me more about your perception of a Western leadership model. And why it just does not resonate.

I think, for me, a Western leadership model has been very theoretical. And I think that is very different to what my experience of leadership is here. I definitely did not study anything to do with leadership or business management or running a business. I trained and qualified as a teacher, and then started living and working, you know, at a grassroot level, and Botswana, and that's what made me a leader. It was experiential. It was the community around me. It was wanting to be a part of that community and doing something with and for the community, as opposed to sitting at the top in an office and trying to figure out, you know, what is this going to do for me? And which box am I going to be ticking? And I think you know, that, again, maybe my view is a little bit stereotypical. But that's certainly the view that I have of leadership. And I think a western view of leadership is so focused on, you know, women in the corner office met in the central office, you know, how do you how do you bridge that, and I think in Botswana, leadership is not in the office, right, leadership is out in the community. So I think that's another big difference.

This paints quite an idealised picture of Botswana.

I don't know if that's ideal, or if it's just very grounded.

So if you were going to be a woman leader, anywhere in the world, you'd probably choose Botswana.

100%.

And do you think that this culture will survive the onslaught of the western view of leadership, particularly through the corporate world?

I am not sure and I think that that is why things like this and the expedition are so important because they're, again, an African women author leader that I love is Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie. And she says there is a danger in a single story, right? So I think there is that single story of what you need to be as a leader, and even for women to you know, that single story of you need to be stronger, you need to take emotion out. It's not, it's not personal, it's business, that that whole view of leadership, I think, if that is the only story we're hearing, then yes, I think, I think there is a danger to leadership here. But I think, you know, if we, if we start to change the story, and we are having more of these conversations, owning our position as gynandrous leaders, so to speak, I think, you know, then then we are the plot twists that the world of leadership has been waiting for, right, we are the ones changing that story. So I think, you know, it's just important to be able to have that voice.

Next, we spoke to Tibajo and, and picked up the western theme. When foreigners come to Botswanam do they understand that it's a different way of operating.

In my experience? I think that's some do, but a lot expect that there's somebody else behind the scenes pulling the strings, you know what I mean? So it's, it's quite interesting. I've never thought about it. But I think of all the different businesses that we've run, I mean, there was a time when we, we did, we would drive people around who came into the city, but didn't want to hire a car. And I would be like the designated driver, because I know the city. And, you know, it was to them. I was like, just the driver, there must be a guy in charge of this rental business of driving people around. But it didn't occur to them that no, actually, it's my business as It was what I'm doing right now. So that's quite interesting, I think. Yeah, I think sometimes they don't, they don't think it's different. Because they think no, there must be something, somebody else behind the scenes pulling the strings, running the business.

What is it about Botswana women, that they have not let themselves be put on the back seat?

I think I don't, I'd want to say it has a lot to do with upbringing. But that upbringing has to come from somewhere as well. So if you look at Botswana, were like a very small country, where the men went off to a different country to work in the mines, etc, etc. So a lot of women were left at home, running the household, making sure kids were fed, making sure everything went on without it having broken up. So I think then it became in our DNA, we sort of like we've always led because our men went away.

Tibajo, Rebecca, told us about Botu, Is that also in your DNA? And to what extent does it they form the basis of the culture in the many businesses that you have started?

I think for me, it is especially in because I work a lot in human based experiences. It has a lot to do with the choices I make when I'm at work. Or when I'm working or with the people I'm working. You know, I have I have to take into consideration sort of like emotional intelligence, I have to be emotionally intelligent, which is Botu.

Give me an example.

Like, for instance, because there are a lot of females who work and and I employed, a lot of mostly females, and they have children, you have to understand if a child is sick, you have to have things in place to ensure that they can take time off or be coming in a little later. Just be that understanding, not like this is a work situation, don't bring your problems to work.

And will it survive the onslaught of Western companies?

I think so I think we'll come full circle. We've kind of we're in an area where we kind of lost ourselves and where we're supposed to be as in terms of trying to do business the Western way. But I think a lot of people are realising that actually this is not working for me. I'm more stressed. I'm changing who I am. So let me really look at this and I think eventually we'll come full circle and back to the way things are supposed to be.

So without doubt, if the approach to leadership, the resonates for women is too influenced by Western thinking, it will not resonate in Botswana.

I don't think so. Because if you look at our history, we've always shared, we've always, you don't want to have a full belly when your neighbours feeling hungry. So we've always found a way to balance whether it be them coming over to your field to work and share the proceeds. Or whether you give, it's always, there's always been that community, in our society that tends to have disintegrated over the last few decades, I think we're slowly coming back to being who we were. Do you know what, in some societies, I find that women think in order to lead, they need to be more like men, they need to be more outspoken, they need to be harsher. They need to do things the way men do things. And I think but a growing, especially in Africa as a growing trend of women to now realise that, no, as women, we actually should use our caregiver status, our nurturing nature, in leadership that can actually, you know, in the Western world, I think a lot of people are now trying to get more emotionally intelligent, doing courses and all that, and this is something that we on this side of the world have naturally. So it's something that people are now waking up to, across the continent, not just in Botswana. It's really sad. It's a discussion I have very often in my space, about how we allow other cultures, other beliefs to come in and take over our cultures and our beliefs. It's as of I don't want to use the word ashamed, because I don't think we're ashamed but because everybody's doing it, we want to fall into line and be seen as at that certain level. So in essence, it becomes, your more sophisticated, if you do things the Western way, you're more, you know, you're more worldly. And that's not the that's not the truth at all. The other problem in our society is that a lot of women don't actually know how much power they hold. We still in that era of, yes, I'm smart. Yes, I can do it on my own. But we are still, we don't know how powerful we are. And when Rebecca introduced me, right, just now I felt like oh, my God, I wanted to think because I didn't think, I sometimes forget to think of myself as somebody who's done a lot of things, who's tried a lot of things, who has tried and failed to try it and been successful. It's always like, the people who shy know who are up, they're more aggressive than I am. And I'm certainly not aggressive.

Have you ever been intimidated?

I think I have lots of times, but I try not to let it show. But when I'm alone in my room, I'm like, That was intense. But yeah, I think I think I have many, many times over and over again.

But you don't show it.

It totally depends on the crowd. But no, I rarely show it, especially if I'm in a room full of men. I try not to show any of that weakness of, Oh, God. I'm not sure if this is the right decision.

I took all this to Rosalyn next. If our approach to leadership is going to resonate in Botswana, it seems it's got to somehow help in that balancing of the individual and the collective. And as a very successful woman, how have you balanced that individual and collective?

I think I'm grounded more by the collective. Because I, I feel the collective is what makes a person, you can never do it alone. And you always have other people, you know, to help you on your way to help you on your journey. So as far as out once the individualism you know, to come out, it'll come out to such an extent, but not overshadow the collectivism. Because you know, the collectivism is what makes me, it's what has held me to be who I am today.

Rosalind makes the case for community and I suppose, effectively Botu. But let's counterbalance that with Kelly, who makes the case for not losing the individual. Within the context of community and Botu.

You can't lose yourself. I know it sounds, some say it sounds a little bit selfish, especially if, I mean, I'm married, I've got a kid, but I can never lose my individuality. Yes I am a mother. But people need to understand I still am an individual with dreams and hopes and targets that I want to achieve for myself. So never lose that, yes, you will have aspects that complement who you are your family, your friends, your cultural upbringing, everything. But literally try if you can, be selfish in some aspects, to push what you truly love. So if you want to get to a certain position in a few years, and you want to study and you want to do this, focus on that, you know, ask, talk to your families, state what it is you want to do so that they understand and give you the support. So they should never sidestep who they are. If they want to take a Friday off as their day, no I'm going to spend the day with my son, my husband, no as your day, do that. If you want to take a leadership course for six months, do that. Just make sure you've got the support in place, because you're still an individual at the end of the day. So yeah, I think for me, that's what you shouldn't lose your individualism.

The Botswana, women leader culture has a big dollop of Botu, if I say the word right. And also has a big dollop of selfishness.

Maybe it's from my side.

Yeah. Do you think that could be right? It's not just, you know, when, Rebecca started talking to me about Botu, I was really interested in it. But it didn't feel like the complete picture.

Yeah, yeah. So I'll elaborate on that aspect in terms of the selfishness. So when you grow up, or how you're raised, you'd hear around when you grow up your aunts, your uncles, and you hear a certain lady has left to go studying for, I don't know, four years to do her doctorate and left two kids and a husband. And the one question I always used to hear was who did she leave her kids with? And you're like, she left the kids with their dad. That's who they were, you know? Are you saying it always, always allowed me that question growing up, and it was it was such a norm, that the minute you get married or start a family now, that is the centre of your being? And I could never understand that aspect that they say that was the father, the other individual who's their parent, you know, and you're getting that part that degree to come back and better their lives also, how's that even a question? So this, I'm saying in terms of that word, in terms of the word selfish that? No, you have to also chase your dreams, because if they also for part of the bigger picture, you know, you're becoming higher call it an example to your kids are becoming a contributor to the economy. And you know, so how is that even something that you shouldn't do? So hence that word selfish to say, as long as you've got the right support system, ensure that you also follow your dreams and balance obviously, I'm not saying not be there for your kids. I'm just saying that. At some point, you have to choose a little bit about you for yourself.

Rebecca, we just heard from Priyanka, Tibajo, Rosalind and Kelly. And our thanks to all four of you so so much, Rebecca, what were there any surprises there for you?

Priyanka's version of a nurturer and nature, that I loved. It is true. Suddenly, you're seeing something. Like I was saying seeing something from a different voice. But the way that she described it, I was like, I always thought, nurture and nature is only about mothers and babies and I didn't. I was like, you know, I'm not. I am a stepmother. But I've never had children of my own. But to hear that just because you use those words just because you're not. You haven't had a child yourself, it doesn't mean that you don't have that nurturing in nature character about you. And that was a lovely thing to hear.

I mean, both Priyanka and Tibajo, have very strong views on Western leadership. Do you share them?

I share them for sure, especially when Tibajo mentioned the part that she did pick up that a lot of people when they come to Botswana, whether they're coming as visitors, or as business people, that when they see a woman doing something, there has to be somebody else doing it behind them. The irony is that is typically when you see a man, you know that a woman is actually behind.

My thanks to Rebecca, for joining together so many extraordinary friends of hers and trying to to get us to learn from the leaders, the leaders, the women leaders of Botswana, the powerful women leaders of Botswana. Next week, it'll be quite interesting too, because there are two more senior women leaders of Botswana, and they're going to talk about how hard it is still to work within the system and how they take on the system. And in so doing I think next week, they will reveal to us some of the secrets of taking on the system. But for now. Thank you all for this episode. And I'm going to leave the last word to Aisha who wants to tell us about the kori bustard.

It's not a coincidence that the kori bustard is the national bird of Botswana maybe it's the female that it is because women here are just like the kori bustard, that grounded always on the lookout constantly seeking opportunity. We revered agile, tough committed to the land. The kori bustard blends remarkably well, like well within its surroundings appearing to be plain or in our case leading from behind. Don't underestimate them. You know, the adaptive nature and passion we see and feel as women in Botswana, like many women the world over, we do stand tall and have the power to hold our own.

Just before you go don't forget to join our next live session. When I and one of the expedition members answers lots of questions, steals lots of your ideas. This time, my fellow member is Fallaway Ome Conley, who is amazing. Totally amazing. Just don't miss her. She's a joy to be with. It's on Friday, the ninth of September, at 12 o'clock, midday UK time. Lots and lots of love. Send us lots of questions, lots of your thoughts.

Thank you for listening to the podcast. We would love you to follow the expedition and provide your own stories and perspectives. You can do this by subscribing to this podcast and joining the women emerging group on LinkedIn where you can have your say.