Heather Kent is on Her Empowered Divorce podcast to talk about Narcissism, both in the personal as well as professional contexts of life.

Heather Kent is a Registered Psychotherapist and certified teacher with a background in trauma assessment and treatment. She is the bestselling author of the books ‘Heal From Your Narcissist Ex’ and ‘I Left My Toxic Relationship – Now What?’

HERE ARE 3 TIPS TO HELP YOU DEAL WITH NARCISSISM

1. Do a self-assessment of your situation
2. Approach a certified expert or therapist who can guide you further
3. Reach out to your support system (friends and family)

CONNECT WITH HEATHER KENT

• Website - https://www.heatherjkent.com/
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• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/heather-kent-258663197/

CONNECT WITH BEVERLY PRICE

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If you'd like to move from self-loathing to self-love, as Beverly did, stay tuned for today's episode that is Sure to help you take on the world. And now here's Beverly. Enjoy the show.

Most women struggle with their self image and self-confidence. Her self-expression provides knowledge, support, and insight to help women on their journey to self-empowerment on the inside and out so they can take on the world. Today, I have these questions for you to ponder. Have you ever dealt with someone who told you what you think happened?

Deal with anyone who made you feel crazy, dealt with someone, that everything was about them. Well, my guess today is my friend Heather Kent. Heather is going to help us today about a serious subject that many women deal with narcissism. Heather is a registered psychotherapist and certified teacher with a background in trauma assessment and treat.

She has also been on my podcast twice before, so if you want to listen to prior topics she covered, please listen to those episodes. She's the best selling author of the books Heal From Your Narcissistic Ex and I left my Toxic Relationship. Now what? She completed her master of counseling psychology degree at the University of Calgary.

And went on to complete various trauma therapy training programs and certifications. She holds a bachelor of education degree from Queens University and was a practicing grade school and post-secondary educator for over a decade as a trauma inform mental health. Heather combines her experience from her previous teaching career, her personal experience with her integrative therapeutic approach to counseling.

Much of her practice is focused on helping clients through the process of recovering from trauma and T s D of abusive relationship and supporting organizations in creating trauma formed work. Having survived her own personal experience of trauma and t, Heather soon came to realize that many other people find themselves in the same situation, which leaves them feeling broken, ashamed, and paralyzed by fear.

Hi, Heather. Thank you so much for being my guest today. It's so good to have you

What it is and what it looks like and how it feels when you're in a relationship with one who displays these personality traits. So my first encounter was at a very young age when I was actually 19 and my first year at Queen. As a freshman, I became involved with someone from my hometown who I had known to not be a great guy in terms of relationships, but who had shown.

These very softer, wonderful, beautiful sort of traits that I didn't really see previously. And so it became very easy for me to become drawn in and, and become more kind of enamored with his enigmatic personality. And he was extremely fun to be around. He was highly social, very charismatic, you know, athletic, really involved in loss of activities, and most importantly, when he was pursuing.

Because I was like, no, I had rejected his, you know, requests a few times. He was relentless in that and, and then when I finally kind of gave in and said, Sure, okay, let's see what happens. You know, it was fantastic and he was so wonderful and I felt like I was the only person on the planet . Yeah. You know, I got very drawn in and he was very, Like attentive and he seemed very caring and wanting to know more about me and, you know, my experience, et cetera.

And so it became very easy to fall in love with him. He made it very easy. However, that beautiful, amazing stage didn't last very long. Yeah. And there were red flags that kind of came up very quickly.

Before the cell phones. Right. So . So he would tell me that he would call at a certain time and not follow through. And so I would of course be sitting beside the phone waiting. Right. He would keep in close contact with previous relationships or previous lengths that he had had. And he actually even cheated on me with a few of.

And I even caught him physically in the act of doing it and he tried to deny it and say that I, same thing. Oh wow. That was crazy. Yep. He would ask me to do things with him, you know, in an intimate setting that these other people used to do with him. Made me feel like I was never good enough, you know, sexually, that kind of thing.

Mm-hmm. He would get angry when I asked. When I, you know, something innocuous, like, what do you want for supper tonight? Right. I would bring him home, something that I saw that I made me think of him in the day, like his favorite baked goods from a bakery. And he would toss them aside and like, not acknowledge or thank me or anything like that.

And then the ultimate kind of beginning of the end that made me start to wake up was that when I got abandoned in a snowstorm downtown alone with no coats, no means, Oh wow. And, and it was a 40 minute drive home. So these are the types of things that I experienced when I was in that sort of intimate relationship context.

Now, in a professional context, it can look a little bit different. There can be kind of ridiculous demands put on a person. There can. Over the top sort of praise of a specific employee and sort of favoritism and nepotism that you witness. You can become kind of this scapegoat, you know, problem member of the team and they can become very suspicious of you.

Very jealous of you wanting to compete with you. Yeah, making sure, micromanaging you. These are the types of behaviors that you might see from a narcissistic personality. Especially someone who's like in a managerial role or someone who is overseeing what you do. And so yeah, there's, there's lots of different sort of contexts in which these behaviors can show themselves.

And then, you know, in medical settings, for example, you might have medical professionals, specifically specialists who. Dismiss you as a patient, not listen to your concerns tell you that you're wrong or that your symptoms are not real. Basically implying that they know better they are, you know, kind of playing God in that, in that medical context.

And so those are kinds of samples of, of behaviors you might see.

Hadn't thought about that being narcissism.

Oh, she's a doctor or a specialist, you know? So you see these personalities drawn to those physicians of prestige and.

So they target people you know, myself included. On some of these things, they look for people who are overly empathetic. So people who are excellent at, you know, putting themselves in someone else's shoes and really feeling what their experience might be. Mm-hmm. They look for people who are people pleasers or rescuers, you know, people.

Okay. People who wanna help or fix. Right. Right. They look for people who are very positive and very optimistic. So maybe these people would be a bit more naive, you know, not having experienced this type of thing before. They look for people who are excellent at forgiveness. So Uber forgivers, okay? They look for adult children of narcissistic parents, okay?

They, because again, those relationships are normal to them, right? Because they've grown up in that situ. Conversely, they also look for adult children, in my case, from very happy families. So again, in my situation it was like this naivety. I had no concept of this when I was right, when I got kinda swept up into it.

They also look for people who are going through difficult times in their lives or transition and people who have a trauma history or have gone through significant lots. So I mean, being empathetic, wanting to help people, being positive and being graded, forgiveness, these are all wonderful qualities.

Right? Right. These are not negative things. However, these qualities also make us more susceptible to being manipulated by these

So the majority of the work that I do with women who are survivors of these relationships, whether they be parental relationships or intimate relationships or you know, professional it is highly damaging. I would argue that narcissistic abuse is the most damaging, kind of severe form of psychological abuse that exists, really, because their whole purpose is to maintain power and control over you or the situation by causing you to question your sense of reality.

Mm-hmm. . So it is literally crazy making and so it causes you the, the, the victim. Like really wonder whether what you're experiencing is real because they will gaslight you to the end of the earth. And so when you're constantly being told that what you remembered isn't accurate or that that never happened, or they never said that, or you're overreacting, you're too sensitive.

Or if you're a woman, my favorite, you're PMSing. Oh gosh know. I was just kidding. You can't take a joke or. Just flat, blatantly denying that something you remember happening happened, or they may even say that you did something that never happened, right, that you don't remember, and they will convince you that you did do it and that you must have an every problem or problem, or that you must have blacked out and that you should see a therapist about that.

So they really go to town. Getting you to question your perception and your sense of a reality, and it makes you think that you're crazy. Also, we have something happening called cognitive dissonance. And so cognitive dissonance happens when you've got these two very opposing things going on and you can't reconcile it in your brain, and so your brain needs a break from it.

So you've got this person who has drawn you in in some. And who you thought was great and you want to make it better, and they're behaving in these terrible, awful ways and, you know, belittling you and berating you and, you know, discarding you and casting you aside and, you know, picking you apart, but, but how could that be happening when this person was supposed to care for you?

You know, because they told you that they did. And so this real, you know, opposing kind of forces happening. And so that creates confusion and cognitive dissonance. And so what we do to get rid of the dissonance is that we rationalize and try and create situations and contexts and excuses for. How, how, how they behave being okay.

So, well, they all only do that when they're really stressed or he only stand out because he was really tired. And so we, we, we rationalize at the, the behavior into being acceptable so that it's not, it doesn't feel so confusing. And I

Right. Whatever that may be. Yeah. So it is extremely damaging to someone's sense itself. When

And so one of the children typically becomes the golden child. This, this is the child that talkable who is to try the touchable, who is amazing, who you know, gets told that the sunshine's out their ass and that they can do no wrong and that they deserve nothing but the best. And so they basically become groomed to beat narcissists themselves because of this inflated, you know, con, Right.

And so the other children though are, there's only one golden child. There can only ever be one. Okay. And so the other children fall into these other categories and it may kind of oscillate or, or switch back and forth depending. You know the perceived flights of the narcissistic parents. So you've got the scapegoat child who often is also the truest teller.

So the child who will call out the behavior or say like, that's not okay. Like you can't say or do that, you know. Why are you causing problems? You have to be so argumentative and disagreeable. Like what is your issue? Like nobody else causes problems. It's just you, that kind of thing. And so you become the state goated as, as the black sheep or the problem in the family of the a reason why there's conflict and, and you know, then you have like the handmade who is just like doing whatever they can fly under the radar and like keep peace.

And yeah, so you, you've got, you know, these sort of different roles of what's happening. And again, depending on the nurse, this perception of what's happened, those roles can move around. Yeah. And be resigned. Typically the golden child is pretty stable. However, I have also seen situations where the golden child has done something or woken up and finally, you know, you know, again, Insulted the nursey in some way.

And so that person then becomes the, the right off the scapegoat, and then the other child, they, they then move to another child to put the, you know, the, the golden light onto, Right. Yeah. So that will happen too. Yeah.

I wish I'd known back then what was still to do with it. and like now. Now I can see it and I see. Professionally, I see it in intimate relationships and I see it parental as well.

Of course, many of those children who were mistreat. Become the opposite, right? They, they live their lives wondering what's wrong with them, why they can't be accepted, why their parents don't love them, et cetera. Right? Right. There's all of those issues that come up as in adulthood, and so we have like insecure attachment styles, anxious attachment, that kind of thing.

But yeah, no, it certainly there is a genetic component and there is a, you know, if you have a narcissist parent and you are the golden child, chances are that's how you're gonna turn. But there's other factors too that would kind of allow someone to develop narcissism on their own.

And I guess that's the first question. Can a narcissist change and maybe what type of things do they need to do to change? Do. See the desire to change? Do they see

Okay. And. There is a lack of empathy, like the inability to think about how other people feel, and then the kind of malicious pursuit of their goals. And the end's always justified the means kind of thing. And so, Sorry. The first part of the question was can they change and are they aware? Yeah, so the other big thing that they have is this lack of self-awareness, and so they are incapable of doing reflective work because that is the thing that they're most trying to escape because underneath all of the facade is a deeply insecure, extremely unhealthy person who was filled with self.

Wow. And that that part of themselves is something that they cannot face because it, there, there's this incredible amount of shame that exists there. And so they do everything they can desperately to similar to, you know, the words are a oz behind the curtain, right? Like, don't look behind the curtain.

Everything, right? Networks. And that's really what narcissists do. They create. This image and this, you know, facade of who they are and what they do to hide their reality of their own insecurities. And so being self-reflective would then require them to acknowledge and look at themselves and the things that they don't like about themselves, which causes their whole ego to crumble.

Wow. Yeah. So can Narcis has changed? Yes. However, There's a, you know, a couple of caveats. Number one, we need to look at what is the likelihood that a person, okay, so some people might not agree with me here, but I'm just gonna use it. An example of Donald Trump. Okay? So I think we all can agree, whether it be like him or not, that he thinks he's amazing.

And so what is the likelihood that a Donald Trump, for example, or Putin, we could use Putin as an example in Russia? What are, what's the likelihood that someone like that is going to a, decide that maybe they have a problem? Okay. That all of the conflict around them isn't everyone else, that maybe they had something to do with it.

So there's accountability. And that reflective ability, What are the odds? What's the likelihood that someone is going to of that caliber is going to admit that that's the case? Okay. Make an appointment to go see a specialist to get a diagnosis. Mm-hmm. , accept that other professional's diagnosis and then commit to doing the years, And I do mean years of therapy work that is.

Wow. Doing therapy with a narcissist literally is like a 12. It's not an AA 12 step kind of program, but it, it's like 12 phases of, of, of work and you don't even address empathy for others until phase 10. Wow. It's amazing. And the work is very slow because you, you're constantly battling that. So you can have a great breakthrough and like you have this moment and they see it and they can, you know, hold it and they can, you know, step, step away from the shame because they go spiraling into, into self-loathing and shame.

Like when, you know, whenever they can admit that they've done something wrong, it's shame like no, like what can we do differently next time is the focus, right? And so you can have this breakthrough with them, but then the next week you see them. It's as though that conversation. So it's very, very slow work.

One step forward, two steps back.

So as a survivor of this type of abuse, I mean, the ultimate goal is always to remove yourself from this person completely, if it's possible. Mm-hmm. . So we, we would call this No. So if it is possible to shut down all communications, block them from being able to reach out to you via social media or email or phone or whatever it is, smoke signals what, Just removing them from the ability to be able to contact you because when you're not exposed to the abuse on a regular basis, that is when you are able to, , Right?

We become retraumatized every time we have an encounter with these people. And so it's very difficult to do the healing work when we're still actively engaged in, right? I can see now for, you know, people who are in co-parenting situations. For example, if you have children with someone, obviously you can't go no contact.

However you can set up extremely strict boundaries and so it really is. The other thing that gets gets eroded as a survivor is your ability to have healthy boundaries. Because narcissists hate boundaries and they will pick away at yours until you're going, like, give in and, you know, you don't have any anymore, right?

And so to reestablish those boundaries and be firm in those boundaries and like, you know, a zero tolerance policy with those boundaries when you have to stay in contact with someone is super important. And you minimize the contact to one form of communication only, whether that be text or email. I would never recommend the phone.

Because they can say things that are not documented, right? And so there are even apps like again for these co-parenting situations that are really excellent because they are legally admissible in court and they're specific for co-parenting. So an example, an example of being our Family Wizard. It's great because there is texting there and you can do children's finances and schedule, like everything having to do with the children can be housed in this one.

Including parental communication. And what's your name of that again? It's called Our Family Wizard. Okay. And sometimes, sometimes it gets court mandated in high conflict scenarios that this is the only method of communication between the par nurses hate it because? Because they are not in. Right. And it actually has a barometer and kind of tells you like, Oh, that seems like a bit of a hostile message.

Are you sure you wanna step that? And so they really hate it because they are monitored, right? Mm-hmm. and it's legally admissible. So controlling how they contact you is really important and limiting their contact. And then when you do have to communicate with them, we do something called Gray Rock, which.

Be as boring as a gray rock. Okay? So you only focus on bland, you know, basic responses. If you have to deal with, you know, a bill or a, you know, investment that you share, or a child or whatever, you keep it logistics focused only, right? Pickups, Dropbox, you know, materials required. Who's going to get what?

You know? When are people going to go on vacation with the children, et cetera. You only engage and respond to logistics. Everything else you filter out and ignore. Wow. So you keep it business only, no emotion, and we never, ever, ever justify. Argue, defend or explain ourselves ever

That

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Now, let's get back to the show and we're. Heather, what's three actionable steps would you give to the woman in our audience about narcissism?

So you can, you can ask yourself, you know, a series of question. Does this person have an inflated sense himself? Do they look for excessive admiration? Do they lack the ability to emphasize with others and how they feel? Do they expect sort of the rules not to apply to them? Right? And do they think they should be determined to be exceptional and amazing and, you know, are only worthy?

Socializing with other equally, exceptionally and amazing people. Okay? And so you're just gonna ask yourself these questions and you know, are they overly focused on the, their image? You know, having a great card, having a great house, having a great office. Like is the prestige important? You know, and do they actually care or, or do they take interest in other people and what they're doing and what's going on for them?

You know? And so the answers to those questions, if you've. Let answer is sort of consistently to some of those questions, then it's pretty obvious that, yeah, you're dealing with someone who has at least has these tendencies, if not the Fullblown personality. And so once we kind of established that, so that'd be the first action step.

Okay. Do an assessment, kind of look at this person objectively and say, Okay, what, what, what do I see? And then based on that information, okay, what am I gonna do next? So certainly as a, as a person who is reeling and in the middle of it, you're in a fog, literally, and it's very hard to see what's happening.

And so I would definitely recommend starting to go to counseling, talking to a therapist that someone who specializes in this type of personality disorder reconnecting with and spending time with people outside of this person. because often they will do what they can to alienate you and isolate you, right?

And so it feels very lonely and it feels like you have no one to talk to. And so I would definitely encourage reaching out to who used to be your support system, friend, family members, et cetera. Getting involved in some kind of physical activity that helps to restore you. So yoga is a wonderful example of doing some kind of physical exercise.

Engaging in journaling, journaling is actually extremely helpful because you can, not only are you, you know, processing your experience, but you're also documenting what happened on a specific day so that when they come back and say to you, I never said that, that never happened. You can go back and you can see that it did happen, and so it helps you with that cognitive dis Oh, that's great.

Yeah. And it helps you to, to make sense of, you know, that reality questioning that we end up doing. So journaling is an excellent strategy that I would highly recommend doing immediately because then you can go back and kind of reassure yourself that no, you're not crazy. Yes, that did happen. Right?

And that can also be helpful if it ever came to like a, a court situation, et cetera. Right. How do you think

I had absolutely no confidence in myself. I've had very low self worth. I never believed that I was worthy of love of any kind. I thought that I was a terrible person that I was to blame for, you know, everybody's misfortune. Even if it had nothing to do with me, I somehow was responsible. And, you know, I was trained to believe that.

And so I came out, you know, with this, this very broken kind of space. Doing these things, engaging and counseling with a therapist, reading, you know, self-help books, listening to podcasts and YouTube, infor information on YouTube videos on this topic. Helping you to like, knowledge is power. And so if you can inform yourself and you can see what's happening, and you can be like, Oh my gosh, that's my experience.

Oh my gosh, that happened to me. Oh my gosh. That's how I feel. You. They said that to me too, you know, then you can start to make sense, Okay, this is not okay, this is not normal, this is not healthy. And then being able to acknowledge that and see it helps us to then take the next step to do the healing work, which definitely requires a mental health professional.

And you wanna be careful with who you choose because often mental health professionals don't. This personality disorder clearly, and they don't have experience with it. And so sometimes a therapist can unknowingly further invalidate you. So it's really important to research who you speak to because you wanna make sure that they under they're, you know, well versed in this field.

I definitely would not recommend any kind of couple's counseling with a narcissist, cuz that's something that they might try and do because their goal is to get the, the therapist on their. Right. And to shame you to the therapist, which I experience. So you definitely don't want to engage in that again because the couple's therapist may not be able to see what's really happening.

Sometimes they can and they'll call it out and other times they can't. And then the victim feels even further invalidated, Right? And so, and unsupported. So get a good therapist who is. Specialized in this work is really important and I would say necessary for healing because you are dealing with, what most people don't realize is that we, we develop symptoms of ptsd.

Mm-hmm. . And so we need professional support to work through that. Okay. Wow. And that is what brings us to empowerment. Right. And so it really is this journey. It's why I love this were so much is because it really is a journey from pain to empower. And, you know, self-actualization and taking back yourself and, you know, reestablishing your voice, rediscovering who you are because

Did that lead you to wanna do

And so it became apparent like, Oh, okay, so if this is happening, this many people just in this little part of the world, you know, this right town, this must be a much bigger issue than I ever imagined or ever realized. And so that's what prompted me to write the. Because they are free resources that people can have.

Again, like I, I would've really loved to have something like that when I would exactly in it. And so it kind of organically grew into this sort of specialized part of the work that I do, and, and I certainly am very passionate about it.

I have one question that I like to ask all my guests, and that is, what does self-expression mean to

It can be people's thoughts, people's feelings, people's artistic desires or artistic talents. That's the word I was looking for. Yeah. It can be expressing themselves through, you know, speaking or writing or painting or dancing or anything at all in terms of how they go through their day. But self-expression for me is the free freedom.

Share and show your personality without fear. Beautiful.

You can download both of my books for free. You can have a look at a few other interviews I've done and articles that I've. You know, written on and you can book a consultation with me if you'd like to speak with me. Personally there's a link to my calendar and you are welcome to book a free consultation with me as well.

Please connect with her to learn more, To get to where Heather scribes we need strength. We need willingness

I hope that you can see the direct connection between owning your own story. Relieving yourself of the burden of narcissism and empowerment. I love connecting you with incredible women that can provide you with actionable steps for you to take on your journey. You can find our podcast through links at Apple, Spotify, plo, and more, so please download the episode and share it with your friends.

The more people we can have listening, the more interesting topics and impactful guests, we can bring your way. And remember, the more you express yourself, the better you'll feel. Self-expression doesn't have to be a mystery. It's your key to navigating life's changes and self-empowerment, both on the inside and out.

But most importantly, remember that you don't have to go it alone no matter where you are in your journey. I'm here to help. Thank you and take

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