Perfectionism

In today's episode of MaryLayo Talks, I’m with guest, Dr Tom Curran, a world-leading expert on perfectionism. We talk about perfectionism and share our own personal experiences.

Questions included:

• What led you to focus on perfectionism?
• What's perfectionism and how does it develop and impact on someone's mental health?
• What misconceptions about perfectionism should be debunked?
• How could someone know where they sit on the perfectionist spectrum?
• What role does society play in fostering or challenging perfectionist tendencies?
• What interesting research findings have you found about perfectionism?
• How can someone overcome the challenges related to perfectionism?

Take a moment to delve into what may be 'beyond the smile' - listen in to the conversation.

Guest details:

Thomas Curran is a chartered psychologist and Associate Professor in the Department of Psychological and Behavioural Science at the London School of Economics. He has written on perfectionism and related topics for TIME magazine and the Harvard Business Review. His work has been featured in publications such as the New Scientist and the Times of London, and covered by many international publications including the Guardian, Economist, Telegraph, Wall Street Journal, New York Times, and Ariana Huffington's 'Thrive Global' campaign. In 2018, he gave a TEDMED talk entitled 'Our Dangerous Obsession with Perfectionism is Getting Worse' and in 2023 he published his debut book, ‘The Perfection Trap.’

Guest's website: https://www.thomascurran.co.uk/

MaryLayo's spiritual wellbeing tip:

• Meditate on the bible scriptures: Matt 11:28-30 & 2 Corinthians 12:9
• Listen to Dear God. Artist: Cory Asbury 

Related resources: Also check out podcasts Episode 4: Not now...Later! & Episode 10 Still Procrastinating?

Connect with MaryLayo:

LinkedIn

Instagram

For help in dealing with mental health related matters, please seek specialist advice and support if needed.

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MaryLayo: Welcome to Marylayo Talks, a podcast

that.

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MaryLayo: Discusses mental health and

spiritual well being.

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Before we jump in, there may be episodes that

are particularly sensitive for some listeners.

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MaryLayo: And if that applies, then I hope

you'll be able to join me whenever you feel

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ready and able.

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MaryLayo: In today episode, I'm talking about

perfectionism with my guest, Dr. Tom Curran.

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Now, Tom knows all about perfectionism.

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He's an associate professor in the department

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of psychological and behavioral science at the

London School of Economics, and his TED Talk

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on perfectionism has received over 3 million

views.

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He's also the author of the perfection track.

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So, given that perfectionism is something that

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I've struggled with, I was all eggs on what he

had to say.

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Let's join in the conversation.

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MaryLayo: How did you actually come into

focusing and specializing in perfectionism?

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Tom : Well, it's very much a personal journey.

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Perfectionism is something that I've carried

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alongside me for a number of years, and it's a

double edged sword.

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It carries you a certain way, but at the same

time, it carries a lot of baggage, too.

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And if we're balancing it out, I would say the

damage outweighs the positives.

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And the reason why I say that is because I

reached a point in my life where I really was

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struggling with the weight of expectation I

was placing on myself.

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And I felt that other people had placed on me

to do well, to lift myself above other people,

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just kind of overcome my background, which is

working class, not very affluent background,

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and in this middle class world, where

everybody just seemed to be so well adjusted,

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so smart, and spoke so well, you don't want

that background to define you, but at the same

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time, you feel like you've got to keep

striving to overcome it.

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So it just completely overwhelmed me.

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And I had a mental health breakdown and panic

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attacks and fatigue and depression, all sorts

of stuff, which really made me think a lot

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about getting some help.

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And when I did get some help, I was brought to

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the awareness that this was rooted in my

perfectionism.

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So that's where it started, really.

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And then I decided that I should really learn

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more.

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And I was in the academic system, so I wanted

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to do work in this area, did some research,

and ten years later did the TEd thought, wrote

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the book, trying to get the message out there

about the true cost of perfectionism.

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MaryLayo: And here you are.

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Tom : Yeah.

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MaryLayo: So then how would you define

perfectionism?

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And you've kind of mentioned already how it

impacted you personally in terms of your

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mental health.

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So how would you define perfectionism?

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And if you can explain how it develops and

then impacts on someone's mental health.

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Tom : Yeah. And I think this is a really good

point to begin with, because I think people

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often confuse perfectionism with other things,

like conscientiousness, meticulousness, being

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diligent, having high standards and all those

sorts of things.

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And I certainly thought that too.

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I thought perfections were holding me up.

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I thought it was carrying me forward.

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I've always making me successful.

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I didn't want to let it go because I believed

that while everything else was coming down

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around me, perfection is the one thing holding

me up.

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And I think that's why it's so dangerous,

actually, because we don't recognize that

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perfectionism isn't any of those things at

all.

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Atroute is a form of deficit thinking so

extreme that we just live our lives trying to

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overcompensate for those shame based fears and

not feeling like we're enough.

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We're not perfect enough, we're not successful

enough, attractive enough, productive enough.

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Whatever it is that in our lives we fear is

deficient, perfectionism will find it and

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amplify it.

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And so if we start there with a definition of

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perfectionism, from that inner sense of

deficit, of lack, then you can really begin to

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unpack the reasons why it's possibly not as

positive as you think it is.

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Certainly not high standards, certainly not

conscientiousness or diligence, which are very

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sort of active, optimistic forms of striving.

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Perfection is a very defensive form of

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striving, trying to conceal and hide, trying

to be perfect, to gain other people's love and

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approval, to in some way soothe those shame

based fears.

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And so it's really there, that realization,

that awareness that you can start to then see,

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okay, well, now, what happens with

perfectionism?

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While perfections are very reactive to stress,

if they come under challenge, if they're

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threatened in any way, that's really stressful

for them because that essentially creates a

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smashing effect on what's already fragile self

esteem.

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They find it very difficult to derive

satisfaction from accomplishment because they

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can never feel like they're ever enough.

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The better they do, the better they're

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expected to do.

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It's like chasing the horizon.

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The closer you get, the further it moves.

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It's simply the thief of joy in that respect.

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But at the same time, when we haven't done so

well, there's a lot of self criticism and self

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loathing that can come in because we castigate

ourselves for not being enough, for showing

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people our vulnerabilities and flaws.

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You can really begin to unpack why

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perfectionism can be really damaging with that

starting point of deficit.

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MaryLayo: Basically, from what you've said,

everything about perfectionism is negative.

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There isn't any positives really attached to.

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We can separate that out in terms of being

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conscientious and that kind of stuff.

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So is there anything else you'd say about the

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misconceptions or the myths about

perfectionism that you'd want to address or

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debunk?

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Tom : Look, perfectionism can carry you set a

certain distance in the short term.

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Problem is, it's not a sustainable way to

strive over the long run.

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We're going to get burned out because we're

going to move ourselves into the zone of

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diminishing the decline in returns to every

unit of increase in our effort.

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And that's going to lead to a lot of cynicism,

a lot of reduced accomplishment, a lot of

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worry, a lot of doubt, and eventually

exhaustion and burnout.

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There's that misconception I think is

important to recognize.

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But there's also a second thing that I think

is really important for people to know about

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perfectionism, and that's that perfectionist.

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Are people also really or the world class self

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sabotages?

And this is why we don't see a very strong

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correlation between perfectionists and

success, because perfectionists will try to

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avoid failure so intently that they will

sabotage their chances of success to do so.

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See this time and time again in the lab, like,

if you give people a task to do, let's say

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you've given them a puzzle task or an athletic

task, and you say you should comfortably

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achieve it, away you go.

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And then you tell them at the end that they

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failed.

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They didn't make it, no matter how well they

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did.

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But it's okay.

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Don't worry about that failure.

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You can redeem yourself.

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You can try again.

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Non perfectionistic people don't really change

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their effort.

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In fact, they try a bit harder.

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But perfectionistic people just completely

withdraw on the second attempt because you

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can't fail at something you didn't try at.

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And so there's this other aspect of

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perfectionism when it comes to success.

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It's really curious.

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This is almost a paradox, in a sense.

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They are so intently aware of failure and how

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it feels and how shameful it feels and

embarrassing it feels, that they will just

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remove themselves from those situations.

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And that isn't just withdrawal or avoidance.

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It looks like procrastination, too.

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It's just an anxiety management strategy that

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perfectionists engage in because their first

motivation is to avoid failure.

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So really, I think that's the big myth that I

would like to debunk.

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It's this idea that perfection is anyway

related to success.

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It isn't.

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It has a blocking effect on success because

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it's an unsustainable form of striving and

there's a lot of self sabotage that goes on.

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MaryLayo: And what would you say in terms of

the pressure that society puts on people?

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I was thinking earlier how times have changed

in the sense that just in terms of inclusion,

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diversity, what perfect looks like, and having

people of all shades or body sizes, for

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example, in the adverts, there is that drive

or change going on to change what people's

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idea of perfect is, because that stereotype

isn't true.

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So what would you say in terms of the pressure

society has, especially when it comes to young

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people and how that may be changing?

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Tom : Yeah, pressure is a big one.

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I mean, I don't think there's any doubt the

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pressures have increased in terms of how we're

expected to look appear, particularly on

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social media.

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Social media is huge.

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It's really amplified those pressures and

create some almost echo chamber of limitless

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perfection into which is really difficult to

escape.

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And on the one hand, it's a really great thing

that we have a lot more openness,

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vulnerability on social media.

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Be real movement, a lot of inclusivity and

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shared, essentially, interests that bring

people together.

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These are really positive things about social

media, I think, things that we should

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definitely hold on to.

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But that perfect lens, that comparative lens,

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when it becomes a should, like, I should look

a certain way, I should behave a certain way,

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I should have certain things like all these

shoulds that are projected at us in social

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media.

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If we take them on as things that if we don't

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have, we're going to feel bad about ourselves.

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Well, that's when it can become a little bit

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more problematic on the balance of things.

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Social media is really pushing on those

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pressures with young people, and I think

they're internalizing them as pressures to be

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perfect.

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We're seeing that in the data, by the way,

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there's a strong correlation between iPhone

use and perfectionism.

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And so I think it's something we have to be

aware of because the data that we're gathering

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and seeing is really worrying in terms of

rising levels of perfectionism, and certainly

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social media is underneath that.

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MaryLayo: And what else, like you mentioned

about some of the data that's come through

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your research in terms of iPhone use and its

correlation to perfectionism, what other kind

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of, I guess, interesting findings or things

that you've observed whilst doing research

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that you can share.

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Tom : Yeah. It isn't just social media,

although social media is the big one.

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Schools and colleges have become very

competitive, and that's also having an impact

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on young people that feel a lot of pressure.

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And, look, no one spared this pressure.

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It doesn't matter where you are on the social

hierarchy, where you live, what communities or

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backgrounds you're from.

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These pressures are really felt across the

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board these days.

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And my perfectionism came from trying to

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overcompensate for material lack.

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People from ethnic minority backgrounds have

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structural hurdles and stereotype threats that

they also must overcome.

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And the data is quite clear that they're held

back in the workforce and in education for

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systemic reasons.

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Those are hurdles and obstacles that they need

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to overcome.

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So, of course, that creates a lot of pressure

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on those communities, too.

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On women.

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The gender pay gap and the educational

attainment gap, which is being very fastly

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bridged, is also having a massive impact on

the need to do more, to be more all the time.

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Look, there's just so many pressures across,

and it cuts across all sorts of different

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communities.

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And I think one of the things we're seeing in

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the day, I think, is that this doesn't

discriminate.

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This is something we're seeing in everybody.

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Given what we know now about the dangers of

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perfectionism, how it can impact on our mental

health and well being, I think it's something

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we really need to be paying attention to.

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MaryLayo: So you mentioned, like, right at the

start about your own personal story or battle

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when it comes to perfectionism.

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How did you manage to get through that?

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Yeah, how did you overcome that so that now

you're on the other side and you're kind of

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talking about it because you've been through

it and you see that actually how detrimental

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it is.

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How did you personally get through that

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season?

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Tom : Yeah, I wouldn't say I'm, like, fully

recovered.

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I still have the hang ups a little bit.

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I think you never really lose the insecurity.

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We live in a world that really teaches us that

those insecurities are real and valid and

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normal.

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It's really hard to shake that.

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But at the same time, you can move yourself

down the spectrum with various coping

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strategies.

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And I think the big one is to really push

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yourself out there, show up, be vulnerable.

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I think this is so important.

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The moment you realize that it's okay to suck

at something or to be not perfect at

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something, and that's okay.

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And actually, in some ways, there's something

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very joyous about that experience is the

moment that perfectionism starts to melt away.

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And so I'd encourage anyone of your listeners,

really, to take the first step in a different

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direction.

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Perfectionism will have you managing your

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impressions all the time, worrying about how

you looks and avoiding situations where you

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might be seen to be vulnerable.

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Well, you've really got to take that head on.

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You got to throw yourself in a situation where

you're not maybe as comfortable public

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speaking.

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If that's something you're not very confident

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at, just put your hand up at work to do a

talk.

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If you don't feel like you're a very good

cook, but you really like interacting with

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people and you're quite a social person, well,

just offer to host one night, your friends and

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family, come round and do it.

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Put your hand up to lead a project leader, all

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hands meeting.

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Do things, basically what I'm saying, out your

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comfort zone.

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It doesn't matter what it is, and it can be

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messy and chaotic and it can be really bad.

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But that's not the point.

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The point is that you're putting yourself out

there, you're being courageous, and you're

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doing things are a little bit different.

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And that your perfectionism would tell you not

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to do.

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And I'm not going to say that that's easy,

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certainly isn't.

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But the more you do it, the more you get used

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to that discomfort.

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And the more you see, actually that there's

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something quite humanizing about these

experiences.

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You can laugh about it, you can joke about it,

and that people around you are supportive,

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too.

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The consequences of not doing well are nowhere

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near as catastrophic as what you build them up

to be.

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So definitely, I would say pushing yourself to

a little by little is so important to do

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things a little bit about your conversation.

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But while you do that, you also have to be

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kind to yourself and kind to other people,

too.

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You're going to slip up, you're going to make

mistakes.

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Things aren't going to go well all the time,

and that's okay.

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Pat yourself on the back, tell yourself it's

okay, and there's always next time.

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Don't criticize yourself, don't castigate

yourself.

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And if you find yourself descending into that

self criticism, make sure you recognize it and

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do something about it.

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Don't let it happen again and again and again.

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And you can slip back into those bad od

habits.

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It's really important to be preemptive.

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So self compassion is really, really

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important.

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And finally, I think the thing is with

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perfectionism is it's quite a rigid and

overwhelming kind of personality to carry

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around.

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And we can think in very strict and narrow

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terms of, we must do this or we have to do

that, or if I don't do this, the world's going

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to come crashing down.

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These kind of types of very distorted

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thinking.

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I would say perfectionism is going to get you

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to think like that all the time, but don't

suppress it or succumb to it, but actually

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write those thoughts down.

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And it can be really helpful to diary them.

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Sometimes, especially when it's a stressful

situation, we're filled with doubt.

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We can often push ourselves too hard, but try

not to succumb.

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Write those thoughts and feelings down and ask

yourself, how much do you actually believe

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that?

How much do you actually believe that?

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Does it have to be done or would be nice to,

or I'm going to try my best, and if that's not

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enough, then that's okay.

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These are more softer, constructive ways to

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frame those thoughts that allow a little bit

of flexibility and a little bit of permission

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for things not quite to go to plan.

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And that's how I talk to my students about

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these things and people who are struggling

with perfectionism.

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It's really about softening those rigid

beliefs and reframing what we call quite

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distorted ways of goal setting or thinking

about what we need to do.

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So those are the things that I would bear in

mind when it comes to trying to overcome our

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perfection.

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MaryLayo: Thanks, Tom. Because when you were

talking, I like how you've basically given

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quite a few different examples, starting from

practical staff that could be implemented in

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the home as well as something in the workplace

in terms of putting yourself forward for a

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presentation.

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While you were talking, I was thinking about

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how once upon a time I had a manager, he used

to tell us as a team, he's not looking for

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excellent or perfect, just good enough.

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Is it good?

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Fine.

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And someone like myself within.

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I didn't voice it out, but within myself, I'm

thinking, no, that doesn't gel with me.

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That doesn't sit well with me, and I'm going

to do it to my standard, not your standard,

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because I won't get that satisfaction.

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So I like how you've kind of talked about

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challenging that rigid thinking and cutting

yourself some slack.

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So I want to ask, how would someone know where

they sit on that spectrum of perfectionism?

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So, I think I saw on your TED talk, you

mentioned a tool that was developed.

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Yeah.

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Can you talk about, or share a bit more about

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how someone can identify their traits and

maybe where they sit on that spectrum so that

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perhaps they'll be able to know how much

they've progressed when they've tried to move

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forward in terms of addressing that issue of

perfectionism.

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Tom : Yeah, absolutely.

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So we have a measure of perfection.

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It's called the multidimensional perfectionism

scale, and it measures perfectionism on a

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spectrum.

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And there are three core elements of

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perfectionism.

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Self oriented, which is a sense of inner drive

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and desire to be perfect and nothing but

perfect.

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So there's questions like drive to be perfect.

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If I'm not perfect, I'm hard on myself, et

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cetera, et cetera.

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Those are the sorts of things we ask.

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You can rate yourself on a one to seven.

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To what extent do you agree with that

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statement?

Totally agree.

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Not agree at all.

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And everywhere in between.

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Socially prescribed perfectionism is another

form of perfectionism, but this time it comes

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from the outside.

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So that I expect everyone expects me to be

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perfect, and they're watching and waiting to

pounce if I'm not.

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So we might ask questions like other people

expecting to be perfect, my family expects me

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to be perfect, other people are waiting to

pounce and let me know if I haven't been

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perfect, these sorts of things.

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And again, the same principle.

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This is a spectrum, and you can score, you can

agree or disagree or anywhere in between.

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And then other into perfectionism is the last

form.

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Perfectionism is turned outwards onto other

people.

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So I expect you to be perfect.

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And if you're not perfect, I'm going to let

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you know.

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So you might ask things like, I find it

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difficult to tolerate substandard performances

from other people, for example, or other

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people in my life have to be perfect and

nothing but perfect.

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Things like that.

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And again, you agree or disagree with those

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statements, and we can measure those three

elements of perfectionism.

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And not everybody has the same constellation

of perfectionism.

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Some people are high on self and low on other

and in the middle of social, some people are

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really high on social and middle of self and

low on other.

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All sorts of different combination of

constellations.

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And that's the really interesting thing about

perfection.

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No one size fits all.

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Everyone has their own unique profile.

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But what is really important to remember is

that with this tool, we can see how

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perfectionistic one is and we can start to

begin to break down some of those thought

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process, break down some of those behaviors,

break down some of those feelings that are

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associated with those three different forms of

perfectionism in an effort to move us down

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that spectrum.

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And that's really, really important, because

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if we were to just talk about perfection, a

dichotomy.

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You are a perfectionist, and I'm not a

perfectionist, then that suggests that there's

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no flexibility there, it's quite rigid, and

there's no way that we can address it.

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So the spectrum approach, I think, is really

important when thinking about perfectionism.

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MaryLayo: So tell me.

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Tom : Well, Mary, let me ask you, can I ask

you a question?

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Is that okay?

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MaryLayo: Yeah, go for it.

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Tom : I would love to know how perfectionism

has impacted on your life.

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Would you describe yourself as a perfectionist

and what are the sorts of things that.

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How has it impacted you?

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MaryLayo: Gosh, okay.

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I've had tendencies in the sense of spending

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far too long on something than I should, and

even though I know how much time it's going to

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take me, but I know that it's not normal.

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So I know that if someone else or many people

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are going to do that same task, they won't

take as long.

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But for me, I expect to take long, and it can

take me long to do a task.

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So I would say that is a trait, another trait

is probably overthinking.

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I can overthink things, and I think that is

also a trait when it.

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Well, I'm assuming definitely other things

would be probably checking things over that

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double checking, probably even triple

checking.

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If I'm being very honest, a lot of that is

probably unnecessary.

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And at times, if I've double checked something

and I've spotted something, that, oh, that's

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an anomaly, and I found it when I double

checked, it almost justifies why I've double

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checked and I need to double check.

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So when someone says good is good enough, I'm

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thinking, I don't know if I get.

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I would say I would get pleasure.

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I think the journey isn't pleasurable.

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So I definitely identify with a lot of what

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you've said in terms of just that striving and

that constant striving.

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However, I think the output at the end, well,

I feel like I know when something's hit the

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standard, how I want it to look, how I want it

to be.

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And so I stop when I've got to that point.

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I guess I must get a sense of pleasure, of

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knowing that, oh, this is how it looks, this

is how it's turned out.

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I guess another trait is almost that feeling

of, if I had to do it again, can I do it

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again?

Would I be able to hit that bar?

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And I think that's probably a trait of

perfectionism, even though you've done it

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before and you could do it again.

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It's that doubt of being able to repeat that

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same standard.

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Tom : Yeah, I get that so much so.

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MaryLayo: I guess I can identify with you

because I certainly know, or I can identify

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with what you've said because I definitely

know that it's not to the same extent as it

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was years ago or even many years ago.

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So I do cut myself some slack.

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It's just not natural, if you know what I

mean.

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I guess my first thoughts, my first intentions

is built on being that rigid.

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This is what I'm going to do.

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This is how I'm going to do it.

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This is what I do to get to A, B or C, and it

doesn't need to, or even feeling perhaps

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overwhelmed when it comes to certain tasks or

projects or activities.

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And I found that when I look back or when I

think back, I think it really wasn't worth all

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that drama or that headache I gave myself.

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But it's repetitive.

437

So it's almost like I haven't learned from

maybe the previous round that how I've been

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going about it is not the best way of going

about it because it always ends up being okay.

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It always ends up being fine.

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And the journey for it being fine can be

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eventful, unnecessarily, I think.

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Tom : Do you know what?

It's really interesting you say that, because

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that's so true about the journey being not

linear at all.

444

Sometimes you're going to succumb to your

perfectionism and that's okay.

445

That's what happens sometimes in life.

446

It just gets a bit on top of you and you feel

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like you got to go back to your perfectionism

because that's what's going to help you get

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out of this little tricky situation.

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And it's just about learning and being easy on

450

yourself when those things happen, because

they will.

451

But, yeah, honestly, your story is amazing and

I think it will resonate with a lot of people

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because I think a lot of things you're saying

there, I do too.

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Particularly the overthinking.

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Oh, goodness me, if I could overcome that

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tomorrow, I'd take it.

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But there are things we can do, and the things

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I've mentioned earlier have really helped me,

and I hope they'll have your listeners, too.

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MaryLayo: I think it will help me as well.

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As well as the listeners.

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Is there anything else you want to leave and

share with listeners that you feel you haven't

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said but can be actually really helpful?

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Tom : Well, I think obviously I would

recommend everybody go and buy my book.

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MaryLayo: Sure. Plug.

464

Tom : Plug. Yeah, exactly.

465

MaryLayo: I mean, if it's anything.

466

But if it's anything in terms of what you've

467

said so far, I think it's going to be a

worthwhile read just in terms of that

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practical advice based probably not just on

your own personal experience, but also in

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terms of the research and what you found over

the years.

470

Tom : Yeah, absolutely.

471

It's a controversial book in some ways as

472

well, because it definitely puts the emphasis

on society.

473

And some of the perfectionism that we're

seeing today, I think is certainly a response

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to malfunctioning society and a society that

pushes us to be perfect just to get by.

475

I think there's also an element in the book

that will surprise readers, but I think

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hopefully also brings them comfort in some

ways to know that at some level, this isn't

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all our fault.

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There's a broader context to those feelings,

479

and it's important to be aware of them.

480

So I would certainly recommend my book on that

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front as well.

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But no, I think, look, we've had a really good

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chat, and I just want to spread the message

far and wide that perfectionism is something

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that's not good, something that holds us back

way more than it pushes us forward.

485

And there are far more healthier ways to

strive where we'll be just as successful, if

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not more successful, but also.

487

MaryLayo: Happy with thank you, Tom. Thanks

for joining me on Mary Lyo's talks and all the

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best with your book and all the good stuff

that you're doing when it comes to your

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research and your profession.

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Tom : Thank you, Mary. It's been great to

talk.

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MaryLayo: Here's a spiritual wellness tip for

you.

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The first is meditating on Matthew, chapter

eleven, verses 28 to 30.

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And it reads, then Jesus said, come to me, all

of you who are weary and can carry heavy

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burdens, and I will give you rest.

495

Take my yoke upon you.

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Let me teach you, because I am humble and

gentle at heart, and then you will find rest

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for your souls.

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For my yoke is easy to bear and the burden I

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give you is light.

500

The other scripture is two Corinthians,

501

chapter twelve, verse nine, which reads, each

time he said, my grace is all you need.

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My power works best in weakness.

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MaryLayo: So now I am glad to boast.

504

MaryLayo: About my weaknesses so that the

power of Christ can work through me.

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Thank you for listening.

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MaryLayo: Do follow and join me again next.

507

MaryLayo: Time on Mary Layo talks beyond the

smile, close.