In this episode, I'm joined by Jamie Webb, a sports therapist, to discuss how to deal with physical pain and the connection between our physical and psychological states.

Jamie emphasises the importance of understanding that pain is a signal, not necessarily an indicator of tissue damage, and that our thoughts, emotions, and life experiences can manifest physically in our bodies.

We explore the polyvagal theory, which explains the different states of our nervous system (fight, flight, freeze, and flow) and how our bodies and emotions are interconnected. Jamie shares his approach of working with clients holistically, considering their physical, emotional, and psychological aspects, and the need to sometimes address the underlying psychological factors to alleviate physical pain.

I trust our conversation add further understanding of the mind-body connection and the significance of being adaptable and able to transition between different nervous system states for overall well-being.

Key Learnings:

1. Pain is a signal, not necessarily an indicator of tissue damage.

2. Our thoughts, emotions, and life experiences can manifest physically in our bodies.

3. The polyvagal theory explains the different states of our nervous system (fight, flight, freeze, and flow) and how our bodies and emotions are interconnected.

4. Addressing underlying psychological factors can help alleviate physical pain.

5. Being adaptable and able to transition between different nervous system states is crucial for overall well-being.

Show Notes:

00:00 - Introduction

02:15 - Jamie's background and approach

06:00 - Understanding pain and its connection to emotions and life experiences

14:00 - The mind-body connection and the role of beliefs

19:00 - Polyvagal theory and nervous system states

27:00 - The importance of adaptability and transitioning between states

35:00 - Identity, emotions, and their physical manifestations

44:00 - Body language and its impact on emotional states

51:00 - Integrating psychological and physical approaches for holistic healing

56:00 - The role of breathwork and final thoughts

You can contact Jamie here

Working on the idea that pain is protection.

2

Pain is a threat.

3

Every emotion has a

physical representation.

4

So if you spend a long time in an emotion

that will, you know, shut down some parts

5

of your body, maybe open up others, and

that will undoubtedly be one of the things

6

that's holding you in a pain pattern.

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If something's not working for you,

you're the captain of the ship.

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Sal: Hello and welcome.

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The body and the mind are one system.

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As you regular listeners of my show

know, that's how I see things and I

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see that the world of coaching and

human performance is fragmented.

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Now, when you go to someone for a pain

in your shoulder, a lower back issue or

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a niggly knee, you might see a sports

massage therapist, a physio, someone

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like that, and they may treat that area.

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But I have the fortune of working

with Jamie, who's a sports therapist

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who treats the whole system.

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Now he's worked on me,

so I know firsthand how.

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Jamie looks at things in the body and may

not be the, let's say the expected view

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of how you work with the physical body.

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So if you have pain, if you have

challenges, you have mental blocks

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today, this one's a good one for you.

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So we're going to get into it.

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Jamie, welcome to Mindset,

Mood and Movement Show.

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It's good to have you on.

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Jamie Webb: Thanks for reminding me Sal.

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Really looking forward to it.

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Sal: Pleasure.

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Yeah.

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Pleasure.

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Jamie, what's, take us through,

what do you, what do you do through

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your day when you're with people?

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What do you actually do?

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Jamie Webb: Well, um, so in terms

of the, the work that I do, it's, I

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think, I think the key thing is to

say it's bespoke for every person.

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I think that's one of my, um,

big drivers, my big beliefs.

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we, um, at the clinic, we talk about

meeting people exactly where they're at.

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So to give you an over the top example,

if someone comes in having searched

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out a physiotherapy type search term

online, um, and, coming with a knee

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problem and, and there's a realization

just from my experience that, um, you

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know, the, the, the flippant way of

saying, and I've never said this to

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a client is it's not your knee that's

the problem, it's your entire life.

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you don't want to hear that.

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Really, but it's about from that point,

um, starting from a, a physical, um, start

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point, say this knee in case in point,

and then seeing where that takes us.

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we always start, you know, because my

qualification is a, sports therapy.

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I'm not trying to be a psychologist, but

it's really important that we acknowledge.

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the, the mental aspect.

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Um, so we get to know, the people

in the room, talk about life.

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it's really important, that our

clients are able to be as open as

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they can be, sometimes it's difficult

to be open with someone you've just

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met or, and obviously that rapport

develops, through, through treatment.

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so we kind of gain the trust on the, on

the, the physical side of things, um,

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using our biomechanical expertise and,

as you alluded to in the introduction.

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piecing it all together.

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we might be, for a knee problem,

we'd certainly be looking

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at what's going on the foot.

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At the hip, at the pelvis, um, but

even all the way up to the neck.

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Um, and been plenty of cases whereby,

we've, we've seen dramatic improvement

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in people's symptoms by, you know,

even releasing off someone's jaw,

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for example, and it, it positively

affects the symptoms in their knee.

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so yeah, that's a, that's a brief outline.

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Sal: so what's super interesting about

you, Jamie, is that, so I came to see

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you a while back and I've, uh, for, for

our listeners, I've had this kind of

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recurrent shoulder issue for quite a long

time and I've done a lot of work on it.

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I've done my own rehab.

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I've got a lot of knowledge about

the body, not as much as Jamie, but

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a lot to kind of do myself work.

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I've seen other practitioners and

it just hasn't, hasn't resolved.

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And what struck me was if you've got

a chronic issue, then when I went to

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Jamie, when I went to Jamie, he was

like, It's probably not a shoulder issue

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because it would have healed by now.

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You know, if it's going on for that

long, it's not about your shoulder.

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And it resonated with me because when

I'm in a coaching space with someone

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and they are wanting to change how they

think and they're trying to do behavioral

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change, it's not about the behavior.

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So I'm already seeing things

in these parallel views.

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So I might look at someone's

belief pattern and, and the

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architecture of their mind.

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And Jamie, you look at people in

the architecture of their body,

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but there is such a crossover.

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No one.

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Has a mind without a body.

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Everyone lives through a body.

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Now if, um, If you're looking at someone

like you said there, the person comes

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in like me with a shoulder or knee issue

and says, Hey, I've got this problem.

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Can you help?

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What's, what's some of the stuff that

you're seeing that isn't physical?

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Because of course for those

of us who've got the physical,

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we think that's the issue.

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But what is it you will see are

patterns and trends that come

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in with some of your clients?

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that are more likely part of

the pain problem or the injury

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problem that you're seeing.

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Jamie Webb: Yeah, sure.

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Um, would it be okay to talk about

your condition in, in more detail?

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So I'll just, cause I

can physically see you.

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Sal: Absolutely.

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Yeah.

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I'm a live case

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right?

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Jamie Webb: yeah, exactly.

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Yeah.

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So it's the one that I can see right now.

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I haven't got my notes in front

of me, so it will be from memory.

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Um, but on a purely physical level, um,

I think the, the, I've made a career

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out of treating what looks most wonky.

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Um, uh, very technical.

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You see it in all the textbooks, but,

now, now, for example, In your case, as

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I remember it, we've, we've obviously,

we have a right shoulder issue.

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Um, and I'm, I'm less interested

in giving things labels.

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I'm more interested about

what we can do about things.

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I think, a critique of, I've got

some textbooks on my, on my, on

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my books, on my shelves up there.

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And the pages and pages of these labels

that don't actually mean anything.

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Um, I mean, to.

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To use your, um, case as an example,

we, we could have labeled them,

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if we wish, a, a tendinopathy or

something like that, which if you

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translate the Latin just means there's

something wrong with the tendon.

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now we don't know that.

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And we're just gonna label and

labels can be very negative.

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I think, um, you know,

you've got something to say.

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I've there's something wrong with me.

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and I, and I don't think

that that is helpful.

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Um, also, I mean, to turn

up is a really good example.

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Um, they, um, It used

to be called tendinitis.

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You might have heard of that,

was inflammation of the tendon

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and they showed, well, actually

there's no inflammation.

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So that was wrong.

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Um, then they showed that it was

tendinosis, which is suggested,

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degeneration of the tendon, which

isn't necessarily the case either.

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Um, so you can have degeneration of

the tendon and no pain and that's

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very, very common in all of us.

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Um, and so that's why they came

up with the label tendinopathy.

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There's something wrong with the tendon.

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But is there?

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Um, and this is the way you start getting

into the pain science, uh, of it as well.

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You can have, you know, what we would

consider, physical issues in the

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tissues is, is the, is the phrase that

we use, but actually no pain at all.

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Um, but equally you can have no issues

in the tissues and pain as well.

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So to bring it back to you, um, your

point, the first thing I picked up with

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yourself through that, right side, we

knew where the, where the, um, where

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the issue was, we knew that there

was some, um, pain on some movements.

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I can't remember the abs one,

some rotator cuff, most likely,

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I think some press ups as well.

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so that gave us a clue as to the

actual muscles that were involved

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in the pain mechanism, if you like.

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And then I, then we had a look at you

and then we had a look at how you were

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lining up and the key things, the two

things that I noticed was I'm, I'm

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overly obsessed with people's armpits.

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I'm a bit special like that.

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so, um, we had a look at your, we

took a little picture of you from

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the back and we got the ruler, the

iPhone feature, very useful for me.

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And we saw that the right shoulder I

think was lower than the left shoulder.

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So something's pulled

down on the right side.

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And with yourself, which is a really,

really common, double whammy is

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we saw that on the, on that same

right side, the pelvis was elevated.

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Um, so again, same, you

can use the ruler as well.

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You can do it by eye as well.

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I like to take pictures.

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with client's consent, of course, just

they're involved in the process as

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well, so they can see what's going on.

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Um, and we could see that it

was, if you like, on the side of

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everybody, it was, the shoulder

was down and the pelvis was up.

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So we had some short tissues here,

and then I used my biomechanical,

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okay, what muscles are bridging that

gap, what muscles could be pulling

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you into that position, um, uh,

and kind of, we then go from there.

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With yourself, Sal, this wasn't the case,

but it can be the case with many people.

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It is, cause I know you're, super open

to it based on your own past experience,

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but it, one of the things, and again, if

I speak to, more conventional therapists,

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they're all going back, um, uh, the

view, people say, Oh, what does, I'm

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a big believer in the hands on work.

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And, um, many people say, well,

you can't change anything.

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And.

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Well, they're probably right

from a pure physiological.

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If you've got a tandem with

degeneration, can I change that?

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Well, no, not really,

not certainly not there.

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And then maybe we can over

time if things improve.

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But, um, what you can do certainly is say

you have a belief, um, and a belief that,

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is, unhelpful or, or, or, or negative.

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If you believe that your pain is

due to a damaged tendon, then, um,

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we need to address that belief.

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Now, the way, my style, the way of

doing that would be to say, okay,

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well, as much as we did with you,

just kind of reinforce that message.

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Physiological healing time is six weeks.

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So if you had damaged it, and we talk

about the original, mechanism of injury,

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did anything go twang, snap or pop?

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Now, if anything doesn't go twang, snap

or pop, we can be reasonably sure, um,

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that nothing was wrong with it, really.

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Um, it was, you know, the

pain started at some point.

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The actual tissues were probably

very similar the day before.

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and at the point where they,

they felt pain, there might've

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been an increased load.

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And key thing is there might've

been an increase, we call it

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increased stress, maybe might've

been a nicer way of framing it.

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because increased stress suggests

increased physical stress, which

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absolutely can be a factor, but

increased emotional stress as well.

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And that can be a factor.

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Um, so yeah, correcting those.

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those beliefs that aren't, helpful.

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Um, and it's all good and well saying

that and me coming out with my spiel

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and stuff that I believe based on pain

science experience and biomechanics.

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But then the hands on work for me is

invaluable in that if I release, and

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you might intellectually, and you were

on the same page straight away Sal, of

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course, but intellectually you get what

I'm saying, but if I can use my hands,

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use the techniques that I've got to then

make you feel a difference there and then.

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then you start to believe.

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And what we've done there is we've

effect a mental change and that

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change happens there and then.

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And I think that's the most

kind of powerful way to work.

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Sal: Yeah.

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That's just so interesting.

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And thanks for elaborating that.

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So, uh, just for a bit of extra

context for, for our listener.

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Um, I've had this ongoing shoulder

pain for more than a year now.

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I train a lot.

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As you listen regularly, you'll know, I

do a lot of training, weight training,

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and I'm in reasonably good condition.

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And it just one day was just fried.

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The shoulder just did not want to work

and, and the things that never healed.

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And I did loads of.

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dedicated rehab work, micro movements on

the rotator cuffs, um, and when I spoke to

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Jamie, as he's alluded to, you know, it's,

it's not quote unquote attendant problem.

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This is something else in the system.

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And of course, peaks my interest because

when I look at systemic change in people,

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like, Oh yes, that's, of course, I

see this in the mental side of things.

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Um, but yeah, I think one of the

experiences you led to there, and

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I want to name is the distinction

between beliefs and experience.

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I know for a fact that it's

really hard to challenge beliefs.

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It's what I do on a daily basis.

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I've challenged people's beliefs

to help them change, but we believe

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what we believe, and they're sticky.

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They're really sticky beliefs, and the

way our predictive brain works, it needs

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to have, trust and, uh, evidence in, in

quite good measure to update that belief.

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So if you don't really trust

the person you're telling, who's

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saying, Hey, you haven't got any

pain in the shoulder, really.

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It's probably something else.

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If you don't trust them,

you're not going to buy it.

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But if you don't have an experience,

a valid experiential, whether you

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feel different, you see different,

whatever it is, then again,

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that doesn't shift the belief.

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And I think that's so

interesting what you said.

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the experiential change by your hands

on work, the naming of the potential,

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like is this a belief issue as well?

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And I've seen other people

with these, quote, problems and

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they don't ever get resolved.

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And of course I'm scratching

my head thinking, well, is that

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an emotional pattern for you?

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And just to note, I used to do a bit

more of the therapeutic side of my

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work rather than only the coaching.

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And I had a physio friend back in

the day and he sometimes referred

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people to me who he could not treat.

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They kept coming back with,

Oh, I still got a hip problem.

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Um, my hip flexors, you know,

firing badly or something like that.

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And he was smart enough to

know that, yeah, this is

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probably an emotional pattern.

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And then I would have the

conversation around it.

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What's been going on with you?

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What's in your backstory?

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Well, what, you know, tell me

something in confidence and I'd hear

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something about an echo from trauma,

um, a difficult time, something

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that's happened to this individual.

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and quote unquote, it was

expressing through the body.

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So I think if you're listening

now and you've got some physical

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stuff, be curious, be curious.

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Is this more than just a

niggly knee or tricky back?

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Is there something else going on?

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So now we've uncovered that, Jamie.

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What else?

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So pain really interests me

because pain is fascinating.

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It's subjective.

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It's in the nervous system.

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Um, it's, it's, it's very complex

and you understand it very well.

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But what is pain?

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Let's understand what is pain.

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So those of us who experience

headaches, backaches, whatever

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it is, what are we experiencing?

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Jamie Webb: Wow.

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okay.

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the book's written on

this cell, so thank you.

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Thank you for that.

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Thank you for that question.

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Um, so what is pain?

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so There's lots of, different, uh,

Theories, I guess, on what pain is,

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really, and you'd think there'd be an

absolute answer and there really isn't.

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Um, so, obviously, you've got the pain

where you've just, you know, walked

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into the drawers at home and banged

your shin, which is pretty damn painful.

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Um, and it's a And that, that's a very

physical, uh, stimulus and I think

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probably to cut a lot of kind of pain

science, neuroscience short, and, and

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summarize a lot of the theories and, and

a lot of the, um, um, books that I read.

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there's a few, pain definitions that

I use and I haven't got them right

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in front of me at the moment, but,

um, I'll kind of summarize them.

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And we're really working on the

idea that, pain, is protection.

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Pain is a threat.

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Um, so it's, it, you know, there's,

um, uh, fascinating, the work

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of, Louis Gifford, any, listeners

interested in following this further,

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I'd recommend his work highly.

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Um, And he works on it.

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One of his ideas of pain is the material

organisms model, which is basically

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that if you look at a single cell and

a single cell, if there's a noxious

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stimulus to a single cell, it knows

to go in the opposite direction.

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Equally, if it's a stimulus that it

likes, it knows to go towards that.

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and this is, again another book that

I'm reading at the moment, The Biology

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of Belief by Bruce Lipton, another

fabulous book, which is a microbiologist

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and goes into a little bit more detail.

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And so somehow, um, without going

into detail, microbiology detail, um,

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these cells know what's good for them

and they know what's bad for them.

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Now, Louis Gifford's work on the, um,

mature organisms, model, as in, in a much

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bigger organisms than single cellular,

which I think, we, very much, qualify in

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that category, um, it's the same thing.

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Pain is, is, is trying

to tell us something.

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It's trying to tell us to,

to move away from something.

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Now, in the, in the, in the, you know, the

drawers, walking into the drawers, it's

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telling you stop walking into drawers.

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It's a very, very simple mechanism.

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Um, you, you know, you, you, you fall

off, you step off a curb and you, and

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you, and you roll your ankle and the

pain is there to tell you stop it.

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It's, it's a mechanism to,

to try and jerk that back.

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And hopefully the pain is there

as protection as designed to get

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you to stop doing anything silly.

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Now, sometimes you go too far and, and

you know, maybe you're off balance.

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You can't correct that.

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That's when you're sprained ankle,

you'll get the inflammation.

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Now, that's easy if you've just

broken your leg and all these

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kind of examples that I'm giving.

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I think, I think the definition

still holds true for that as

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in, stop breaking your leg.

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You know, that's that immediate response.

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There's also the, the, the role that

pain plays in terms of if there is

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damaged tissues, which we've alluded

to previously, then there's a response.

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for healing straight away.

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then we get into the kind of chronic

pain, um, uh, bracket, which is

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actually being re rebranded at the

moment to persistent pain, which

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sounds just a little bit nicer.

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Um, and that's categorization is

anything longer than six weeks.

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And this is where we started

getting into the, the more

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tricky, uh, elements of pain.

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and in, in its case of what, what

is there, what is, what is pain?

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It's just telling us something

in our life needs to change.

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Now, if we take your shoulder as

an example, Sal, which is a really

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interesting one, it, perhaps, you know,

we're going to go slightly off tangent

341

here, um, if that's okay, Sal, but

it's always the case of what, what was,

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what was the, what was going on for you

when, when that, when that pain started?

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Um, had you just purely increased

the load in your training?

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Um, yeah.

345

Were you a little bit run down at

the time, which can be a factor.

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Had you been ill, for example, there's

a massive correlation between your

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immune system and pain as well.

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or was there something in life that had

been, um, you know, stressing you out,

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something on your mind a little bit.

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And these things are, they can

be conscious as the example, but

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they can be subconscious as well.

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and that's where we go to the kind of

the more kind of hidden stuff, which

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goes into, um, stuff from our past.

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And, we, we don't hold ourselves tense.

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intentionally.

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We don't necessarily hold ourselves tense,

um, uh, in, in certain areas on purpose.

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Um, but we do, and there

are reasons for that.

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That can be physical trauma, can be

emotional trauma, emotional stress.

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You know, I'm always intrigued as to,

where does PTSD, for example, post

360

traumatic stress disorder, where's that

crossover between stress and trauma?

361

Um, I know trauma theoretically

is, is held in, in, in different

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space in, in, I think the frontal

lobe or whatever it's called.

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So it feels very real and very current.

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but all of these things are

reflected in our body over time.

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Um, and to give you a really, present

current example, I, I, um, I started

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a new gym a couple of days ago.

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So I'm feeling the effects.

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I'm pretty sore today.

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Um, and I've just been doing

classes for a little while.

370

So it's nice to, um, just take

control back and just work on my

371

own things, for a few months now.

372

And I was really preaching the gym I was

working at previously didn't have mirrors

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and I completely get the reasons for that.

374

Um, and that's great, but

this one does have mirrors.

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I thought, you know, you can imagine me.

376

I'm a very much a form geek,

much like yourself, self style

377

when we're, when we're training.

378

And I was just doing my shoulder

press in the mirror and just.

379

you know, that childlike curiosity

that I have about everything.

380

And I was just looking at how

my ribcage was expanding as I

381

was doing the shoulder press.

382

And on the left side, it was really

opening nicely, possibly too much.

383

Um, and on the right side, it

was really kind of locked down.

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I'm like, Ooh, Oh, I didn't know

that, where's that come from?

385

And me being me, I was like, Oh,

is that from a previous injury?

386

Or is that from, some old stuff or

the et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

387

So, um, I appreciate I've just gone off

on a tangent there a little bit, but

388

hopefully that, uh, goes, uh, in some

way to answering your original question.

389

Sal: you.

390

Yes.

391

And it's such a huge field.

392

We don't, uh, we respect the fact

that we're sort of giving the entry

393

level sound, you know, sort of just,

just understanding around pain.

394

If you want to go deeper.

395

Yes, we can leave some links in

the show notes to Louis Gifford.

396

But, um, but pain is interesting.

397

You're absolutely right, isn't it?

398

It's information in many ways.

399

It's a signal, it's a frequency, and

it's an intense frequency that one would

400

hear, and, you know, there's a lot of,

there's a, I think a cliché term that if

401

you don't listen to the whispers in your

body, you'll hear it when it screams,

402

and in some ways that's quite true.

403

I see these cases with people, yeah,

you probably see it, I see it with

404

burnout cases, where people are

working so hard and pushing so hard.

405

And I might be coaching this individual

and I'm like, okay, so you know where

406

this pathway is going, don't you?

407

And I'll, I'll name him, but

the pain, uh, can be superseded.

408

Our brain is very, very capable of

superseding physical and emotional

409

pain if we perceive it's important.

410

And I think this is one I

want to talk to you about.

411

I don't know if this is in your space,

but The meaning we make out of things,

412

and I'm very interested in this field

of semiotics, which is the blend of

413

looking at emotions, affects, you know,

how we think and feel about something.

414

Uh, what they mean, because

meaning is everything to humans.

415

We, we are meaning creatures.

416

So if it means something to

us, like, do we love someone or

417

do we care about, it matters.

418

So the meaning pain has for an

individual, which is whether

419

it's psychological or physical.

420

And if we stay with physical for

your experiences, what does it mean?

421

I think that's a really intriguing

question that we can get into

422

because if it's a, as you say,

persistent pain, like my shoulders,

423

persistent pain, what does it mean?

424

So I'm going to be honest here.

425

What does it mean?

426

I'm going to just say this

straight off the cuff.

427

Uh, it's holding me back.

428

Uh, it's stopping me from training.

429

It's annoying me.

430

So I'm actually very resistant to this.

431

Now, if I put my sort of, let's say

Eastern understanding filter on, I'm

432

really, and I've said this a million

times, resistance is suffering.

433

Whatever we resist, it is suffering.

434

So I'm resisting what's going on.

435

And hence, uh, there's probably a

tightness in my architecture of my body.

436

There's a tenseness in my

thinking, thinking as well.

437

Um, And you alluded to already

about if we're holding ourselves a

438

particular way and we don't know,

that's, that's really intriguing.

439

So what meaning are you seeing the, uh,

whether it's me or with other people,

440

what meaning do you see come out of like,

what does pay mean for this individual?

441

What, what kind of themes are you

seeing in it with your clients?

442

Jamie Webb: Yeah, sure.

443

I mean, I think, um, and again, that

goes back to a point I mentioned

444

earlier and it being completely

unique for every individual.

445

I think if we, maybe expand on your

one, Sal, and then, and then maybe

446

move into some other examples that, uh,

just crop up for me as we're chatting.

447

Um, I think in your case, I love

your honesty and the frustration

448

and resilience that, you know, the

resistance and that's, uh, very classic.

449

And I'm sure that will resonate

with, with the listeners.

450

Um, but for you, the bigger picture

is the, you, you, you love training

451

and it is, it's the fear of what

you're missing out on and, and,

452

kind of on a, on a deeper level.

453

from our conversations and I'm sure

you've, you, you, you've spoken

454

about this before, it's important

to your mental wellbeing as well.

455

Um, you know, it might, it might even

be important to your social wellbeing,

456

you know, um, when you, um, when you

go training, you might meet friends at

457

the gym or, you know, you might have.

458

coffee with someone afterwards.

459

So it becomes a big part of your life and

going back to our previous, discussion on,

460

what pain is, um, you know, that threat

and that protection, if there's a threat

461

that, Oh my God, let's take a runner's

cause I know runners get, a lot from this

462

and the catastrophization, which I'm sure

you've spoken about on previous, podcasts.

463

But you know, the brain will quickly

go to, Oh, this Achilles problem.

464

Am I going to be able to do my race?

465

I'm going to be able to run a PB.

466

Um, am I, am I, uh, and then I'm

not, what happens if I can't run?

467

And if I, and if I can't run, um, I'm not

going to be seeing my running friends.

468

And if I don't, what am I

going to do with myself?

469

And, and, and running is really

important for my mental mental health.

470

And, and then I'm just going to go insane.

471

And, you know, I intentionally picked

up my pace in my, in my voice there

472

to just, you know, try and give a

sense of what happens in our brains.

473

And we all do it.

474

Um, it's just kind of

catching yourself doing it and

475

noticing that you're doing it.

476

and then just taking that, that,

that step back, I think, I think

477

is, is, is really important.

478

So.

479

Yeah, I think, I think I pretty

much covered a lot of the bases

480

there, really, just in one

example and projecting on there.

481

Sal: I Yeah.

482

I was going to have

one more layer to that.

483

So yeah, absolutely.

484

There are these implications

of what, what does it mean?

485

And it means I can't do this.

486

Can't do that.

487

Maybe see friends, uh, let's say,

and I know runners and they put a

488

lot of work in to get to their race.

489

And then suddenly if there's a, you

know, an Achilles or a problem, ah,

490

What I also notice is, let's go another

level deeper, particularly this is

491

my lens of work, is it's about your

identity, who you are as a person.

492

So I identify with training like,

trying training like an athlete,

493

and that's how I identify.

494

So if I cannot do that, that's, that's,

uh, potentially taking away a piece of my

495

identity, which I care very much about.

496

because we, we hold our identity close.

497

So I wonder, and of course this

sort of slips into the realm of

498

different archetypal patterns or

what we call parts in psychology.

499

Uh, inner family systems is another model,

but the aspects of self, you know, one

500

self wants to be training, one self is

feeling a bit sore, wants to hide away.

501

And I think this is where

I see the disconnection.

502

And this is why I'm interested to talk

to you about another layer about this

503

disconnection between mind and body.

504

or between the parts of ourself and it

seems to be for some of us we can get an

505

injury because we're disconnected from

our body like forcing the body to do

506

something when perhaps it doesn't want

to or the other way is not giving your

507

body the conditions of say exercise and

activity and it's becoming redundant so

508

that disconnection I see is a problem

what what is there anything you're seeing

509

with disconnection in people's bodies and

their in their thinking self their feeling

510

self that that presents in a problem

511

Jamie Webb: Yeah, I think, oh

gosh, this is another big one, Sal.

512

And, uh, so, uh, if I get too

detailed, do, uh, do pull me out.

513

Um, I think there's, there's, there's two

things that immediately spring to mind.

514

I'll, I'll start on, on, on the first one.

515

I'm fascinated by, um, the, the

catastrophization example I just gave.

516

would be more on a, an anxious spectrum.

517

so someone who more associates with

anxiety, um, we talk about, um, uh, body,

518

body anxiety as, as, as a thing, um, you

know, that fear of what they've done to

519

themselves and, and that, and that kind of

thing, there's also, kind of like a bodily

520

disassociation as well, that can happen.

521

And, that is, I think, where I say,

I think, because I really don't know.

522

Um and obviously it's unique for everyone,

but it's kind of like, you have the

523

mental capacity, and going back to you

probably because it's important for your

524

self worth and your overall, this is who

I am that you alluded to, but you have

525

that ability to push through anything.

526

Um, and we're talking pain

here and, and we all have that.

527

if you've just run a 26 mile marathon,

you're absolutely on your knees.

528

Um, and a lion leaps out at

you, what are you going to do?

529

You're going to run faster than

you've ever run in your life.

530

Um, you know, there's that, I forget

the name, it was 127 hours, something

531

like that movie where a guy got trapped

in the outback in Australia and he, he

532

sawed his own arm off with a rusty pen

knife because that was any sort, he

533

said it felt a bit weird, but he didn't

feel pain because his brain had decided

534

that in order to keep him alive, it was

more important that he didn't feel pain.

535

So, uh, absolutely fascinating.

536

Now going back to the disassociation.

537

I think, um, and I put, um, a lot

of Olympic athletes in this bracket.

538

I'd also put them in a lot of them

in the anxiety bracket as well.

539

it varies from person to person, but

you can go through things to a point.

540

and I've seen a lot of people over time

where they have that ability, their

541

overall goal for whatever that might be,

Olympic gold, self worth, mental health,

542

even, you know, trying to, um, you know,

personally, if I've got any mental health

543

issues, I'm prone to over training myself.

544

Um, I've been, been there, got the

t shirt many, many, many times.

545

Um, so, but what you find with that

disassociation is when the pain

546

does start creeping in, when you

don't, when you don't seem able

547

to zone out from it anymore, then

there's quite a big kind of drop off.

548

and actually a lot of people I've

seen who've previously done that then

549

turn in the other way and become very

anxious all of a sudden because they're

550

like, I can't control this anymore.

551

You know, my usual

strategies aren't working.

552

And, and, uh, Um, so yes, in quite a

few interesting cases, like that over

553

the years, and it's almost, you've got

to rebuild that confidence in the body,

554

and, and in, and in the, in the self

and, and in sometimes you, you do have

555

to address the underlying, okay, why

were they doing that in the first place?

556

and that, self worth, I keep

referring to the big one for myself

557

and, and, and a lot of us, I think.

558

Um, And so sometimes getting people

like yourself on board, I have

559

a, uh, you know, um, uh, I have

some very clever friends as well.

560

If, if in the physical work, we

do pick out something a little bit

561

more, emotional, mental, then I have

people that I can refer to as well.

562

Hmm.

563

Sal: I mean a caveat for me and I'll

be really, uh, vulnerable and honest

564

here, but one of the reasons I train

is originally it's, it's kind of

565

less lessons it's charged now, but

originally was because I hated feeling

566

weak and it's a really, uh, revealing

statement about sort of my psyche.

567

But.

568

The feeling of weakness, uh, and I have

an autoimmune condition, which sometimes,

569

uh, will pull me down and crush me.

570

The, the feeling of weakness

is abhorrent for me.

571

It's been a challenge.

572

I've done loads of therapy

on it and it's a lot of work.

573

It's a lot better for sure.

574

And I'm in a lot better place,

but that's the truth of it.

575

And if anyone has Bernie Brown, the very

well famous, uh, shame researcher, you

576

know, a lot of her work and other people's

too, would point out to, particularly

577

for a man, weakness equals shame.

578

So it can be that as a, certainly

if you're a man and you're

579

training really hard and are you

training to get away from that?

580

Now, of course, the flip of it as well,

just to be on the positive, that I train

581

for fun because there's a playful side in

me and I love to move and play because.

582

Hell, I feel like a kid again.

583

It's brilliant.

584

Certainly a north of 50.

585

It's lovely to be able to feel

childlike and youthful and vigorous.

586

So it's about seeing these sides.

587

And I think that's the work I

do a lot of self work for sure.

588

And I see it with my clients, but Look at

the shadow and look at the light because

589

both of them are probably part of the, uh,

driving mechanisms behind why you might

590

overtrain, why you might push through

something, um, or why you might be stuck.

591

And if you don't look at that,

that psychological architecture,

592

it's like it's driving the bus,

as the old expression goes.

593

Now I want to touch on something here

that you mentioned about, perhaps

594

like, athletes who may have had a

difficulty and they've slid down into

595

maybe more of an anxiety type response.

596

If we think of the four Fs, flow,

fight, flight, and freeze, you know,

597

the two sides of the nervous system,

fight and flight, sympathetic,

598

flow and freeze, parasympathetic.

599

What I often see is that there's a,

um, it's like a navigation point.

600

We're, we're neurologically somewhere in

that response and they're all healthy.

601

If we are appropriately

responding to, stimulus.

602

But if you've been in fight response

a lot, like pushing towards something,

603

working really hard, so there's forward

motion and you have an injury or you have

604

an autoimmune condition like I do, and

like suddenly you can't train, it can

605

slide you down into that anxiety place.

606

Or for me, sometimes it's a shutdown.

607

Like it's a retractionism, what the

word, people use the word depression,

608

but I would call it shutdown.

609

It's the shutdown state.

610

And, and I think that's because I've

my nervous system is responding to the

611

experience and the meaning I'm giving it.

612

Do you work with polyvagal theory

in your work to some degree?

613

Jamie Webb: Very much so, Sal.

614

My head had already gone there

as you, as you were chatting.

615

Yeah.

616

Sal: Great.

617

So if we use this lens, and I really love

this lens because it's super easy to get.

618

We've got flow state when we're

feeling socially engaged, we feel

619

confident, we're really, you know,

life's just frictionless, it's lovely.

620

Fight state is in, it's not

act, not, not aggression.

621

We're talking about moving towards

problems, you know, solving

622

problems, going towards the issue.

623

Heavyweight training, boxing, CrossFit,

you know, that's often fight state.

624

All good.

625

Flight state is generally

moving away from the problem.

626

So on the positive, it's like, yeah, I

need to, to put the weights down now.

627

I need to go home now.

628

Or flight state negative is like,

I don't want to deal with it.

629

Ah, you know, anxiety

chasing you down the road.

630

And of course, Um, freeze state and

it's, and it's more, it's positive realm.

631

It's like you need to quiet down,

like put the weights down, go

632

have a, go have a massage, go

home, read a book, be quiet, rest.

633

And that's the sort of more

positive quality of it.

634

It's darker quality is, is more of a

depression quality, which you've already

635

suggested you've been down that road.

636

Uh, I know that it's worst state

is, is trauma, you know, when

637

there's other qualities to it.

638

So what are you seeing when people come

into your, into your, into your space

639

and they've got some stuff going on?

640

Do you see them mapping through

one of these neurological spaces?

641

Jamie Webb: Yeah.

642

Yeah.

643

And I, and I think, um, you know,

I've been, doing this, for, it's going

644

to be 20 years, in August for me.

645

so when you've, um, been lucky enough to,

um, spend time with, I don't know, people.

646

3, 4, 5, 000 people, in,

in, in close proximity.

647

you have a unique insight,

into, into the human condition.

648

And, I think it got to a point

probably about five years ago where

649

I meet the person for the first time

in the, in, in the reception area.

650

And I take one look at them and

I kind of know where they're at.

651

I'm sure other professionals in my line

of work and particularly, obviously even

652

more so in, in, in the psychotherapy

realm, we'll have the similar experience.

653

Now that's our initial judgment.

654

And we, which is useful and it's,

it's instinctive for people like us.

655

but we've also got to be, wise that

that's our initial, um, indication.

656

I think it's usually pretty accurate.

657

But that's our judgment and we have to

remember that is, that is a judgment.

658

Um, and then we need to

modify that as we go.

659

Um, but I think I, you know, the,

the, the reason I, I love Parley Vagel

660

theory is, is because it, it talks

about our nervous system is just one

661

nervous system, at the end of the day.

662

And.

663

all aspects of those flight,

flight free social, engagement

664

are active at any one time.

665

Um, and, and, and, and the, the, the

best example I always use is, um, sex.

666

Um, and it was the example that

was, given to me when I was

667

first introduced to the concept.

668

And it's, you know, there's,

there's aspects of all parts

669

of the nervous system in there.

670

There's the obvious kind of, arousal,

which, is that kind of, excitement, that

671

fight or flight kind of, sorry, the,

the fight, I guess, really, in terms of

672

what, what's going on, you're coming up.

673

Um, then, um, you also need that kind

of, Clearly social engagement as you,

674

look longingly into your partner's eyes.

675

but also there's that slight, the rep

reptilian part of polyvagal theory that we

676

talk about, the passiveness, which again,

in is extreme form is depression, in that

677

you are, you are letting someone in your,

your being passive, um, and allowing

678

someone to share your body as well.

679

And that's just a really

nice example of how.

680

just in one example of life

that all parts of our nervous

681

system are working together.

682

Um, and obviously the, you know, that's

in different states at any one time, but

683

going back to your original question.

684

And then that initial, uh, kind of

judgment as we, we, we, we were kind

685

of accurately saying on the person

is you, you, you make a judgment in

686

terms of where they're more dominant

on any given, um, uh, position.

687

So, you know, if, if I meet someone

and like, yeah, I'm absolutely

688

fine, Jamie, there's no problem.

689

That stress is absolutely fine.

690

I've got no issues at all.

691

You kind of know that they're a little

bit, they're a little bit flighty, uh,

692

at the moment and if, if their demeanor,

and again, this probably comes across on

693

the, on the video version, not so much

so, and I'll try and do the voice as well

694

for the people just listening on audio.

695

But if, oh yeah, I'm,

yeah, I, yeah, I'm here.

696

So I'm sorry.

697

From existence, I've got this problem.

698

Sorry to trouble you, sorry

for the, sorry, sorry, sorry.

699

that, you know, they're more

on a, on a, on a depressive

700

end, end of the scale there.

701

And, and so you immediately pick

up on, on, on those nuances.

702

And then once we sit down and chat

to 'em, get to know them, we get

703

to know a little bit more about the

detail, possibly the reasons why.

704

Um, get to understand them,

get to understand, um, how.

705

Um, how they are right now, maybe

that was just an initial, coyness or

706

a little kind of anxiety and meeting

someone, or if there's some more kind

707

of, um, uh, underlying, underlying work.

708

And of course, from, from my

perspective, um, how that, how

709

that shows up in their body.

710

Um, because every, every emotion

has a physical representation.

711

So if you spend a long time in an emotion,

that will, you know, shut down some

712

parts of your body, maybe open up others.

713

And, that will, undoubtedly, be one

of the things that's holding you in

714

a, pain pattern from, from my work.

715

Sal: Yeah, so interesting, isn't it?

716

And I think that's something, uh, which

I'm, I'm hoping as, uh, as a listener,

717

we can take away because something as

simple as what's the shape of your body?

718

How are you carrying yourself right now?

719

So if you're sitting, are you

collapsed at your shoulders?

720

Is your ribcage depressed?

721

You know, is your chin tucked down?

722

What does that feel like?

723

And if we think about technology

use, particularly a phone, most

724

phone use invokes an anxiety

slash depression like response.

725

It's quite timid, it's

collapsed in the chest.

726

There's, there's a lot of

sort of inwardness to it.

727

And of course, using a phone is

a very abstract thing rather than

728

experiential thing that's around you.

729

So the shape of your body, your

body language, and it's a space I've

730

worked with quite a few people, like

to change their body language in a

731

way that's going to change how they

present in the world and actually

732

often present in front of people is

just as important as the psychology.

733

In fact, in often in many times more

so because it's embodied, right?

734

It's an embodied cognitive state.

735

So what I find interesting is that we

can get very familiar with these states.

736

I've seen it in my practice.

737

It sounds like you're seeing it.

738

We get identified with, and

we often say it, don't we?

739

You know, I'm an anxious person or

I have anxiety or I have depression.

740

And I'm not going to say that's not true.

741

That's not what I'm saying.

742

But I'm saying if we overly identify,

it becomes quite a familiar place.

743

Whether we want that or not, it becomes

a familiar and we have to be very careful

744

of the homeostatic Gravity of the human

system, we, we gravitate to homeostasis

745

and sometimes if it's been misaligned

because of life, life's been tough to

746

you, your upbringing's been tough, your,

your gravity point might be a depressed

747

quality because of the circumstances of

your life or an anxious because you've

748

been around threats all of your life, so

we're not saying that it's wrong, you're

749

not having it, but if you're overly

biased into that space, It does suggest

750

there's opportunity to step into this

other, let's say, neurological, emotional

751

states of, and hands up, so another

absolute raw example, you know, I, I,

752

when I grew up, I, I hated fighting and

there was problems at school when I was

753

young, uh, difficulties in my upbringing.

754

In more recent years, in fact

last year, I started boxing.

755

which is hilarious because I'm

like, I'm going to hit someone,

756

I'm going to hit things.

757

And I am not, not that far

down the road yet, but there

758

is permission to be aggressive.

759

There's permission for the fight state.

760

And I think as a, as a modality

growing of certainly my system, taking

761

an anxious person and giving them

a fight state in safe, controlled

762

environment is a very healthy thing.

763

Because if you've always had to back

down, if you've always been at threat,

764

You need to turn the tables somehow.

765

So we're not saying go and punch people.

766

That's not what I'm saying at all.

767

I'm saying go get a safe way to understand

fight for someone else's weight training.

768

A heavyweight movement invokes

you have to be aggressive with

769

it, you have to really go for it.

770

But if you're going through it

with a conscious state, what I

771

find is you're giving yourself

permission to change state.

772

And perhaps the person who's got a bit

too much aggression because of their,

773

again, their life story is taken that way.

774

Then how can we help you

back off a little bit?

775

How can we help you find a bit

more safety without having to, you

776

know, uh, be overly fight statey?

777

So, balance is seemingly the need.

778

We need to be able to go reflexively

into these states as appropriate,

779

hopefully come out of them

when they're not appropriate.

780

And, um, yeah, it's a big, it's a

big thing that I love to work with

781

because I've been through, uh, years

of, uh, being in an anxious space and

782

then going to the flow state in yoga,

just been totally zenned out state.

783

And now I actually am okay.

784

I mean, it was, it was the more

heavy training disciplines.

785

and the psychological work which

I've done has helped me like,

786

yeah, stand up for yourself.

787

It's okay.

788

You can do that.

789

And then there's that real,

ah, I feel more balanced now.

790

Jamie Webb: Yeah,

791

I think it's, um, oh, very much so.

792

Everything you said.

793

Um, and I think, adaptability,

um, is the, is the key.

794

Having the ability to, move in and

around all of those nervous system states

795

that we were, we were talking about.

796

Yeah, I often talk about in this

very room here, where you are on a

797

theoretical, the floors kind of like.

798

And the, you know, that massive, we're

all on a sliding scale somewhere in there.

799

We don't know exactly where it is.

800

It's a theoretical scale.

801

Um, but when we're up here or down

there, we get stuck and actually, um, we.

802

Um, we, you know, we, getting into

the gab or matte stuff, we are, all of

803

our decisions are, um, based, based on

keeping our nervous system in the same

804

way that it's because it is accustomed

to, you know, our, our, our choice of

805

our jobs, the choice of our partners,

the choice, these, these choices

806

we make, which we think are active,

conscious, uh, choices, but, and they

807

are, but they, they, managed to keep us.

808

in, in the way to which we've

become accustomed from a

809

nervous system perspective.

810

So, coming to change, it's about spending

more time in those different states

811

that you alluded to, uh, Sal, and, and,

and just to bring it back to my field

812

in terms of the, um, the, the, the

tissue side, the physical side, and it's

813

that, Uh, adaptability of the tissues.

814

Can the tissues adapt?

815

Yeah, you can slump, and then you

go, you know, up in the air, um,

816

but can you be everywhere in between

that at the appropriate time?

817

I think that's the, that's the really

important, really, really important work.

818

And I think also, um, We've kind of

mentioned around this already, but the,

819

and then this doesn't happen for, for, for

all of my client by, by any stretch, but,

820

um, the number of times I've, I've seen

people when I've done some physical work,

821

where we're working on something that's a

little bit sticky, the, the, the evokes a

822

specific emotion I've had people say, Oh,

Jamie, that's my anxiety right there, or,

823

Oh, um, that reminds me of this memory.

824

Oh, that's making me feel a bit, a

bit funny in the tummy, my, my, my

825

adrenal glands going, and you can

even trace that in, in certain people,

826

if, if their, their minds work that

way, um, to very specific events.

827

Um, now, obviously, if we've more

traumatized people, you have to

828

be careful, not to re traumatize

them, which, which is possible.

829

but, uh, as I've got more

experience with that, what I've,

830

what I've realized is that.

831

actually, if I'm in tune and listening

to what they and their body are

832

telling me, I'm watching for the signs.

833

I'm feeling with my hands, my

fingers, um, then nothing comes out

834

that isn't ready to, to come out.

835

which is really lovely, place

that, for me, to be able to say

836

that, it's taken a lot of effort

and a lot of hard work and, to, to

837

Sal: Well,

838

Jamie Webb: that.

839

Sal: I've been on the table

mate, so I can testify.

840

Which is so cool.

841

So there's so much in this space.

842

Um, of course we, we don't

have all the time in the world

843

to share this, but we do.

844

You know, for me, and obviously Jamie,

when you and I have spoken, you know,

845

outside of this, this conversation and

today, it feels like if we can see the

846

connections between our psychological

architecture, who we think we are,

847

beliefs, all those things, our emotional

experience, how do we feel, our

848

neurological state, like Where am I?

849

Do I feel safe?

850

Do I feel like I'm going to

move towards the problem?

851

Do I want to get out of here?

852

Do I want to just shut down?

853

This self awareness grows and expresses

physiologically in the muscles,

854

in the tissues, in the fascia, in

the movement patterns that we see.

855

And.

856

If my dear listener, you are in pain,

struggling, you know, you've got some

857

physical stuff going on or you're,

you know, sort of tapping on my door

858

and you think it's more psychological,

you need to go to both doors.

859

You need to see Jamie, you need to see

someone like me because actually when we

860

work on the whole system, and I'll cycle

back, this is one of my big hopes for

861

the, for the sharing of this education.

862

We are systemic creatures.

863

We do not work in isolation.

864

Thoughts affect the physiology and

the physiology affects the thoughts.

865

And it's one ecosystem

of impact and influence.

866

So if you're having issues,

make sure you're speaking to

867

someone who understands this.

868

more nuanced and integrated

approach because it's likely to

869

be happening for you as it was

for me as it is for many of us.

870

Jamie, I'd like to summarize

for, for this conversation.

871

What are the final thoughts you might

share about how one might think about

872

their dealing with their physical

self and their, you know, their

873

psychological self that you see?

874

What's, what's some of the things you'd

like to finish on a sharing point for us?

875

Jamie Webb: Yeah, I think I'd like to

finish on a message of hope, really.

876

and again, I'm, I'm, I'm sure

I know we've both been there.

877

So, and, and, in, in those hopeless

situations and, and, and it's driven,

878

what we've done and, people get into

this stuff for purely self interest.

879

Let's be honest.

880

but, yeah, it's, it's, if

something's not working for you,

881

you're the captain of the ship.

882

And, um, we've all had tough

things that have gone on in our

883

lives and some more than others.

884

and I've been relatively lucky in my

life and, obviously a lot of people

885

have shared a lot of things with me on

the treatment couch just over there.

886

so I've got a, an array of, uh,

an idea of, of what, you know,

887

the world looks like, out there.

888

So It's just, trying different things

and if you're not happy with where you

889

are right now, do something different.

890

the, you alluded to, yeah,

see both of us, obviously.

891

and if it doesn't work with

either of us, see someone else.

892

there's, there's always,

different options out there.

893

myself and Sal, we, we love what we do

and we're always, continually learning.

894

There's always more stuff out there.

895

Um, But it's fascinating that sometimes

the, um, the emphasis might need to

896

be more emotional, and psychological.

897

And sometimes the emphasis might

need to be more, more physical.

898

sometimes I've had people say,

People who've done a whole raft of,

899

psychological work on themselves.

900

And, I just do a few, a few of my party

tricks and all of a sudden they're reborn

901

and it's almost like it's too easy.

902

Sal: Yeah,

903

Jamie Webb: And then, you know, the

flip side is that, you know, maybe

904

I, the person I alluded to earlier

where, it's not their knee, it's

905

the whole life that's the problem.

906

And I'm, I'm beavering away.

907

I'm doing my usual things, looking at

the whole body, trying to address the

908

biomechanics and their body's just not.

909

releasing in the way that I want to

despite my my best intentions and and

910

and for those people, you know something

They need to do something, differently,

911

they, they need to, address the, the,

the, the psychological aspect as a way

912

in, um, and then, you know, everything in

between where if you can work in parallel

913

with the psychological and the physical,

um, at the same time, and one, might

914

open up another, which is, uh, is, is,

is the truth as, as, as far as I see it.

915

Um, in terms of, um, you know,

uh, what, what can we do?

916

Um, what would be my, my

tip from a physical level?

917

And you're going to love this song.

918

That song hasn't paid me for

this, by the way, listeners.

919

I, I breath work.

920

is, is, is, is, is not

the answer to everything.

921

but even from a biomechanical

perspective, it is very much

922

at the source of everything.

923

I won't bore you with details.

924

If you want to look at the work

of the Anatomy Trains guys,

925

I suggest you do that online.

926

there's a little bit of

art on our website as well.

927

So it kind of, for me, it works

on nervous system level as well.

928

Um, like I say, biomechanically, continued

diaphragms, continues with the hip

929

flexors, uh, and ramifications, onwards.

930

really holding myself

back on detail there.

931

So yeah, so certainly, that would

be, a take on that message of hope,

932

um, the message of the connectedness

of the physicality and, and the,

933

that emotional, Ability, uh, of

the, the, the body to physically

934

store those, those, those emotions.

935

and then breath work as a, as

a way, as a way of, as a nice

936

all rounder, for all of us.

937

we all have to breathe.

938

when we breathe slower, we,

when breathe out more than we

939

breathe in, it calms us down.

940

When we breathe that in more than

we breathe out, it perks us up.

941

There's a fundamental, there's

a fundamentality about that.

942

Sal: yeah.

943

Thank you, Jamie.

944

Yeah, really nice.

945

So many points.

946

Yes, we are coming to the end of our show.

947

Breathwork is an entire other subject.

948

Bray and Jamie, maybe you'll come

back on and we'll talk biomechanics.

949

Um, yes, I'm trained as a

950

Breathwork, teacher.

951

It is

952

Jamie Webb: there you go.

953

Sal: tool.

954

Yeah, so, um, and actually I'll be putting

some content on my website soon, so if

955

you're listening to this, have a quick

peep at the website, there's probably

956

likely to be something on there, uh,

around the Breathwork piece, which you

957

can hopefully dig into, so yeah, just

go to the website, look at the show

958

notes, the details will be in there.

959

Dear listener, as always, I say this

every time and I'll say it again,

960

if something in this has piqued your

interest, caught your attention, rewind,

961

write it down, use AI, don't make how

you do it, but capture the knowledge.

962

and use it.

963

It is yours to implement.

964

I hope it changes something in your world

and I hope it changes something in, uh,

965

in your thinking and your feeling as well.

966

So Jamie, thank you for coming on and

sharing your utter brilliant wisdom today.

967

We basically need an entire day

to unpack your mind, probably

968

more, but it's, it's probably the

start point for, for our listener.

969

Um, thank you so much, dear listener.

970

Take care until the next one.

971

I'll see you soon.