My guest today is an expert in climate communication.

Her name is Katherine Duarte, and the reason I fist noticed her, was because she was a fresh breath on my Instagram feed. I noticed that she shared important, serious and very interesting stuff about climate and sustainability, but she did it in a very funny way.

Today we discuss the complex, difficult, but very interesting topic about how to communicate hard issues like climate change.

Katherine has her very own approach where she mixes in humour and relatebility with the hard facts. She has a very interesting career journey behind her, going from academia, via teaching and media, to now helping businesses communicate better about their sustainability initiatives without greenwashing.

Links:

Katherine's LinkedIn profile.

Katherine's Instagram profile greenkathyta

For more information about what I'm up to in my own business, check out Bycause.co

Katherine

this is stories for the future. A podcast on a mission to get you excited and optimistic about a future full of fantastic opportunities. My name is

and I'm trying to figure out how we can all live good lives, have exciting jobs. And at the same time, take good care of the planet and everyone living here. I want to unlock the superpower. So everyday people so that together we can, co-create a future. We're all excited about. So come join me on this journey. The future is up to us, and I know that we can make it a

Microphone (HyperX Quadcast)-2: But now let's get going with this week's episode. All about the complex. Difficult, but also interesting topic of communication. .

And you still do that, Catherine. So thank you so much for that. I think we need more. Humor in this space and welcome to stories for the future.

veslem-y_1_09-26-2023_111412: Yeah, that's good. So, uh, we, I think we have many things in common actually, but one thing that stands out when I look at your career journey or your education journey is that we both spent quite, uh, um, some years at the university of Bergen in Norway. Uh, so I couldn't leave, uh, fast enough after I hunted in my master's, uh, thesis, but you stayed a little bit longer,

veslem-y_1_09-26-2023_111412: Uh, so, but, but by Bergen, this is where you're based, right? In

veslem-y_1_09-26-2023_111412: Okay, so, um, you say about yourself that you're a [00:04:00] media researcher turned freelancer, content producer, consultant, and lecturer. So to fill out this sentence a little bit more, what is it that you do?

veslem-y_1_09-26-2023_111412: Yeah.

Most of mostly.

Focusing on sustainability and climate? so, and what is it that drives you in this field?

My name was written all over it because it was about climate and climate communication and climate journalism, and my passion was really on this, um, the part of communicating and one of our time's biggest, um, how to say problem there is, uh, climate change and I worked, uh, [00:06:00] during my master's thesis at the Climate Research Center.

So I spoke a lot with climate scientists and Every time I kept hearing that, okay, we've been saying this for 10, 20, 30 years. We've been saying that climate change is here. That way we have all these consequences, but people don't listen. So all the time I, I kept hearing that. The problem was communication.

The problem was how we convey this message, how we communicate, how we disseminate our research. So how can we be better? The climate researchers always ask me and the professors and, uh, and, um, people studying the physical climate change. So, uh, since I didn't turn a climate scientist. I thought, okay, so my passion is communication and it's always been communications.

So it was really, I was like on that kind of road towards academic career, which I loved, uh, a lot. Because I mainly love to talk with other students, with other colleagues, to debate how can, how can we make this better? How can we communicate? How can we? So, so basically it was the, the communication part of it that I really loved.

I really found my, my, uh, my voice there. I really love to talk with students, with younger people. It really made me a passionate about it. Uh, but it was really tough. So I, all teachers, all people, uh, working in, uh, teaching our children. I mean, I I'm so in awe with them because it's really tough, really, really tough.

And I thought it was cut out for it, but I've been teaching, uh, like young. adults and not kids. So it was really hard, but I really liked it a lot. But I found out, okay, maybe this is not my aim. So I, uh, jumped a little bit towards, the media business. Uh, so I worked a year or year and a half at the Norwegian Broadcasting, um, uh, Corporation, NRK.

It has to be fun. It has to be fast and exciting, but it also has to be fact based and every, I mean, every single time I was the sort of the person always waving at the finger. No, no, no. We can't say that because that must, it's not correct. It's not, uh, according to research, it's not according to papers and it's not according to facts.

So, uh, I was the sort of. Uh, how do you say party pooper there?

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: And, uh, so, so no, I, but I really liked, uh, to work on that sort of big screen. Like the TV format was really fun. Uh, this was a digital documentary. So it was basically for internet, but, uh, so, uh, aired it on, how [00:10:00] to say, uh, mainstream TV as well.

So, uh, no, I really liked that. And afterwards I started to work at the climate desk here in Bergen, which At an arcade, uh, other, uh, Newspaper has followed through afterwards and they have started to work on climate change, really focused on climate change or climate journalism. But NRK was the first, uh, the Norwegian Broadcasting Corporation was first.

And that was, I really thought that this is it. Now I really found my colleague because I could both, um. how to say, uh, mix my passion for communication at the same time as I could really, reach out to a big audience, a very big audience. And that was like, it gave me so much energy. It gave me so much.

Uh, and it really, um, I actually have goosebumps now because it was such, um, I felt that I, I grew on that journey, uh, doing the research for this huge, uh, digital story. I think it lasts for, well, my, some of my colleagues almost worked one year on this story. I worked about six months with it. And it was so much facts.

Uh, seabed, of, uh, , our food at the very end, how will we be affected by it? And the crops. And I mean, it was huge, really huge. And also because Norway has this. It's super long, a coastline. So we will be affected of all this and, and I, I felt that the puzzles like sort of started to land my puzzles, but also the puzzles on this huge story, because, uh, we have people diving in all kinds of places, uh, both in the seabed and right outside, uh, Norway, but also far away in Svalbard in the Nordic sea.

Like, uh, if the fish don't, uh, if the sea gets heated up, uh, if, fish from, from the Southern part of Europe. I have to come Northern to the Northern parts of Europe and what will happen then, and, and the ecosystem will get shut down and everything. I mean, it was like a huge, huge, uh, undertaking, but it was also a very, to, to tell this story in a way that we both could convey this message that.

Researchers have been saying for 30 years at the same time that we wanted to reach out to people that also don't believe in climate change, which was our aim for this story. And I think we did a pretty good job because as far as I know, this is the most read story, digital story in anarchist history in climate change.

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: One of them, because we have like two or three, uh, climate change in Norway was also a very, [00:14:00] very big hit. But this one was because it's partly not only about climate change, it's also about the huge effect that will be out there. So it was, it's a very long answer to your question, but I think it really for me to be.

first in academia and to see like the research behind it, how can we convey this message in a theoretical, in a, in a, um, uh, in a way that is trustworthy, reliable. Because I'm very preoccupied with trustworthy and reliable communication, but also to, uh, it has to be fact based and we have to reach out to the people that not necessarily, that they don't necessarily believe in this and don't necessarily read all these research papers.

veslem-y_1_09-26-2023_111412: Oh, yeah.

And, uh, and I was, I was pretty depressed, I think, during summer and I thought, okay, my life is over. I will never have a job like that ever again. And this was my last shot and so on and so forth. So it was really bad. And also it was in the midst of a pandemic. Uh, yeah, so it was really, uh, it was a bad time and very bad timing, and I know a lot of people lost their jobs, and I think it was bad all over the place, uh, and I mean, I live in Norway, so my life was, of course, not always, it was a very strong exaggeration, but I felt like my career was like, okay, what now?

veslem-y_1_09-26-2023_111412: Yeah.

veslem-y_1_09-26-2023_111412: so now I'm really interested in how you actually dealt with that because this is, I've been there myself, you know, so, so when you have this, uh, this, uh, kind of, it's, it's kind of a grief process in the same way as if you, as you mentioned. Yeah, you break up with somebody or somebody dies or something as a big change.

So you have to go through the different phases with a shock and the depression. And so how did that work for

I think it's, I've talked with a lot of people about this, I think to have this kind of idealistic, um, brain, uh, I thought, okay, I still have my passion. I still have this message I want to convey. Uh, so that's, I think it's about that time that I started to, uh, make these, uh, reels or videos on Instagram.

Yeah, because I needed to have sort of an outlet where I could, because. Now it's completely free. That was the thing. I was when I was an academic, I had to deal with the rules of academia, right? And oh, my God, what was the other professor thing? What was my colleagues thing? And so on. And when I was at NRK, of course, I mean, it's NRK.

Climate is serious. Climate change is serious, but we don't have to communicate in a boring way. So I thought, okay, so I can either, uh, make a fool of myself and try, or I can just not do it. So I chose the first one. So I tried to make these videos relatable, but also funny, but at the same time, always fact based.

So that was sort of my aim towards it. So, and I have dancing videos and I have jumping videos and I have videos where I change clothes and videos where I. Okay. So you've seen them,

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: Yes. And that's,

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: and that's another thing I wanted to sort of show that it was possible because every time I spoke with my colleagues in the, as climate researchers, they said, no, but people don't listen and we have to find new ways to communicate. But they didn't, they still do the same. You know, they still talk, they still preach to the choir.

I mean, it's still an echo chamber where they talk with other NGOs, with other, with the same politicians, with the same colleagues. And I'm like, come on, you have to step out of that shell. So that's what I wanted to do because I actually could. I was my own boss for the first time in my life and I could do whatever I wanted.

So I thought, okay, what's the worst that can happen? People might unfollow me because I'm, I make a fool of myself or they can say, Hey, maybe she's a, like a fresh, like you said, like

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: fresh breath in, in this, uh, climate, um, communication field. So that was my start of it. And, uh, yeah, uh, the transition was hard to say the least.

So that's when I started to sort of, uh, yeah, make, make my, uh, my own business and make that work. Mm.

So, so what, what do you think, what have you landed on is the most effective strategy for communicating such a urgent and, uh, and also very, you know, My, my big, I always have this picture of the different bubbles that we're in the echo chambers, as you say, and it's very, it's very easy that we sit in our tight bubbles, and only we [00:22:00] hear the people inside our bubbles and then we end up shouting to the other bubbles and we kind of talk past each other. So yeah.

And I think maybe you, uh, see yourself in this as well. It's, um, especially. People like you and me and others, we know that, uh, are really idealistic and want to do something better for the world. It's like, but we can never be perfect enough. And I think it's really important [00:23:00] to convey to people that, uh, in order to become green and sustainable, you don't have to be perfect.

I mean, this is a journey. Our friend, our common colleague, Maria, says that this is a sustainable journey. Like, you start somewhere and then you have some sort of goal. That goal is not for everyone. And I start, and I talk, and I work a lot with small businesses, with NGOs, and they're like, but we don't have the kind of budget that X and Y has.

And I said, okay. That's fair enough. But where you are now and where you want to be is like this journey. Tell me about this journey. And that's why I said, and maybe I will say it several times for me, the best sort of communication strategy for me is honest, reliable, and trustworthy. Because when you're honest and you say, Hey, so we tried this and that, and it didn't work for us.

veslem-y_1_09-26-2023_111412: Me too.

So what's in it for me? Why are you telling me this product is more sustainable or more green or more? Whatever. I want to hear how this. Product of service is better than the former. I want to hear how this product or service is going to make the world a better place. Um, I think that people are lacking this, uh, sort of, um, this storytelling this

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: because there's something missing like, uh, most products, but because that's the easiest way to, to, The easiest example, um, when you talk about a product, Oh, so now we make this product and it's 30 percent greener or more sustainable or less CO2, CO2 emission.

And I'm like, but what on earth does that mean? I have no idea. Because it doesn't tell me that, okay, compared to a one year of travel or the whole fleet or, I mean, it doesn't say anything. So that's why I think people are becoming more and more, uh, increasingly, uh, more skeptical. And I think that's what my background has taught me that, uh, fact based and trustworthy communication is the way to go.

veslem-y_1_09-26-2023_111412: Yeah. Transparency. Act.

Why don't start now? We should have started 10 years ago, but okay, and now is the best time than ever. So I think for me the openness and the honest type of communication, I think is the way to go. And it's, it's, I think we can learn a lot. I had this project this spring, very nice project, working with children's cartoon on climate change, Climate Ninia.

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: We're together with Uh, bna Center for Climate Research. They made, a couple of researchers have been to Greenland and Antarctica and, um, coast of, uh, Norway. And [00:27:00] they took, they brought, uh, an India, um, how do you say, figures, figurines to these different places. And they let the figurines explain, uh, field work and research and how they take ice sheet tests and so on and so forth.

And I'm like, ice core tests, and I'm like, wow, this is so easy. Everyone can understand it, even kids down to seven years. And they're like, why don't we do that? Why don't we, uh, try to make... And it's not about making, think that people are, people are stupid, we have to make it easier. No, it's not about that.

It's that we can relate to it. Like if you, if you show that, um, for instance, I was curious about that too, because I had no idea how do, uh, people when they are, uh, doing research and Antarctica with minus 30, 40, 50 degrees, how do you go to the toilet?

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: yes. [00:28:00] How do they shower if they're there for months? Do they ever shower? I mean, they don't have what, I mean, so many questions, the same questions the kids have. We adults and grownups have, you know, and I'm like, okay, so explain it to me. Explain the easy way. How did you bring this, uh, these, uh, the instruments?

Uh, how, how do you, uh, get down to the 300 meters, all these kinds of things that

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: we maybe want to ask, but we are too afraid to ask or, and, and the kids that were like, they had so many questions. I went like, wow, this is really good. And, and then I started to think we should, we should start thinking. Like kids do.

Uh, It's okay to convey an important and serious message, but make it a little bit, you know, easy, fun, relatable. Yeah, it's not that complicated

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: Yeah, because that's the truth for many people that work on on their own. Yeah founders and and and Writers and yes, I think it's it's [00:30:00] make it relatable and what's what's in it for me? Like my main goal with this account was to teach people that okay It is so sort of depressing with climate change and, uh, the climate effects and, and storms and extreme weather and so on and so forth.

And it might feel like, okay, there's no point in whatever I do. I mean, whatever I do, if I do something, it won't. But I think it's so important that we convey the message that whatever you do, the smallest thing might be enough. Like if you cut out, um, meat. One day a week, for instance, or if you maybe one day you have a, this meeting, uh, and also like I do a lot and I take the train one once or twice.

Okay. I have to check that out. Some of my friends, I have to tell them, okay, maybe you should stop buying so much because you still have a lot. But it's better that they go to the, how do you say a fast fashion, uh, stores.

Uh, and I want to just share with you, um, An experience I had last week, because I, [00:32:00] I, I was in this industry for 10 years. I used to go to these conferences every year, big, global, all around. Uh, and I, I actually love them, uh, because it was new topics, learn, like looking into the agenda, what talks am I going to listen to and meet people.

And, you know, your work family from all

veslem-y_1_09-26-2023_111412: but I haven't paid attention to these conferences for a long time. So I haven't kind of watched or looked at the webpages, but last week I, I, it ended up in my feed for some reason. And I took a look, uh, had a look at, uh, it was SP, it's a society for petroleum engineers.

Yeah. And we're sitting here in our, and I'm now a part of this, of this environmental movement more than I am of the oil and gas, uh, industry. And. We're kind of not listening to each other. And I'm sure like there was a conference in Oslo now this weekend. I don't know if you attended the donut economics, I

veslem-y_1_09-26-2023_111412: but I'm sure that the people from oil and gas weren't there, and they didn't pay attention to that conference because it's outside of their bubble [00:34:00] and their focus area. And I kind of, how do we bridge this gap? Because I think we more or less want the same thing, but It's, we're kind of missing each other.

All this competence they have, all the knowledge they have, we, we, we have, we're in need of that kind of knowledge in the future as well. Uh, at the same time, I think they also see that this is a huge issue and they have, they have to change sooner or later, [00:35:00] maybe in a slower pace than the rest of us. But, uh, I think that bridging the gap is inviting each other to these kinds of events.

It's unlikely. Change a little bit, go on exchange.

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: But I don't know if it's possible because, um, we talked about the same things, but in different kind of jargon or different languages, uh, the oil business might talk about transition and, and, uh, sustainability, but at the same time. Um, they know that they have to keep up pumping oil and yeah, uh, because, and, and the argument that I keep hearing is that we need energy in the future as well, but we need maybe different kind of energy.

I hope I'm wrong, but I think it will take a couple of years, uh, because it feels like we're walking on different paths. Like we, I, you and me and all the other people we know in this field of sustainability, we have, I mean, we are in a hurry.

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: A lot of us are in a hurry. Well, uh, oil and gas businesses are maybe, okay, they know they need to change, but I don't feel that they have the same rush that we have. Unfortunately, I think that maybe, uh, we need to speed up a little bit. Um, maybe it will happen. And I know a lot of. things are happening. And that's, I have a couple of friends that are very techno optimists and they're [00:37:00] like, Oh my, come on, we have all of this changes and we have the, you know, wind farms and solar farms.

And I'm like, yes, wow, perfect. But it's so slow.

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: And, and, but technology takes time, right? And I think, uh, I think we just need to embrace that. We are working different paths, but we have to maybe find somewhere where we can, uh, connect the paths.

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: for instance, going back to my field with, uh, uh, chat GPT and I, uh, I mean, what will, what, what is the future in my field in communication?

I mean, am I obsolete in five to 10 years? No, I think the answer is no, because we still need human connection, interaction, uh, feelings and motivation. And I think that's at least my, I think, I hope I'm not wrong,

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: that we still will need that in the future. So, I mean, I think technology is great and all, but we need.[00:38:00]

The, the personal touch, the, the, the human interaction as well. So, so I really feel that we need to, yeah, integrate each other in these kinds of debates. In the future as well?

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: Yeah. Or maybe like invite ourselves like, oh, I see you have a sustainable, um, how say, how do you say sessions on, in, in your, in your, uh, in your conference? Uh, uh, what about, can we have a conversation? What is, what is your topic and what's your main argument there? And so on. Yeah, I hope I'm invited to some sort of a conference that maybe I wouldn't go to because it's like, Oh my God,[00:39:00]

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: without it being, uh, we haven't talked about greenwatching, but that's, it's a major, uh, for me, it's, it's a huge, uh, it's, it's important because the way I communicate, it always has to be trustworthy and I think trustworthiness is the highest currency right now. If you want people to trust you and think, what is it, what's in it for me, you have to be reliable and trustworthy. And, and if the oil and gas, uh, field are having sustainability in their... Uh, how to say conferences and seminars and whatnot, I think it has, they have to convey this message in a very trustworthy way or else, I mean, how could, how could I be invited, you know,

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: to this, if it's not,

So it's, it's kind of, how do they actually start? It's like when you, when you're starting a diet, you're, you're starting small and you're kind of becoming better with time. So I think I see their dilemma as well, that everything can be.

veslem-y_1_09-26-2023_111412: yeah,

Yes. Uh, but at the same time, I believe, okay, yes, they are better and the, and their competitor, but if they want to be best and they also, I mean, mother, mother nature asked them, okay, what are you doing about this and water consummation and transportation and so on and so forth, but if they want to be best.

Selling products. So how can we make this, uh, many of my friends believe that this ad is greenwashing and I'm not sure. I mean, parts of it, because at the same, at the end of the day, they still want to sell more products. That's what they live off. That's their, uh, business strategy, of course, or as they wouldn't make a new process.

And we will become, um, carbon neutral by 2030, I think they said. Uh, but we still have to work on repair and we have still have to be open source and so on, but you don't have to change your, uh, your products every day. And I think that's like the key message that I missed. And many, many people that wish they wasn't greenwashing would have thought it was a better aim, but they will never do that.

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: Yeah. Uh, and that's, it applies for the oil businesses as well. Right.

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: we know the exactly, exactly, that will be more, uh, how to say I would trust that [00:44:00] message better than we are greener than our oil is greener than you follow my drift is, is like, uh, just tell it how it is, you know, I mean, yes, Apple products are way better than the, competitors.

Thanks for listening to the podcast. We'll see you guys next time. Thanks. Thanks. Uh, I had a MacBook Air for nine years almost. I changed the battery and so on, so, very good. I also wanted the newest, latest one. I had a iPhone, I don't remember that, one of the smallest one for six, five years or so. But at the end I couldn't repair it, I couldn't change the battery, I mean I changed everything on it.

So maybe in our lifetime, we will never, it will never dry up, but it will sooner or later. And what then, you know, so, so if we could connect those kinds of dots and also, I mean, we are sitting in Norway, right? I mean, part of maybe all our. Uh, wealth is due to oil, right? So, so we have to admit that we wouldn't be here the way we are

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: because if not, yeah.

So, so I think to acknowledge that, yes, we have the best welfare in the world and so on, uh, it's due to oil, but we could maybe switch to other things because we do have the technology. We do have the knowledge. We do have people that need also jobs outside of oil. So.

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: I [00:46:00] know.

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: Oh,

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: I have a very big plan now and it's a bit scary to talk about, but I have, I definitely shared it all over social media. So it's not a secret. I'm currently writing a book on sustainable communication.

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: Towards aimed at businesses, small and medium sized businesses that want to convey their message, uh, without greenwashing.

Yes, with the openness, I think we can, uh, we can get so much more, um, uh, trust, like I said, hundreds of times already. I think that's one of the things I miss when companies communicate is that. They don't tell the whole picture. They don't tell the whole story and that's why I think it's lacking. So, uh, so yeah, so the book is hopefully being launched, published in beginning of spring next year, so Fingers crossed.

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: So that's why I'm, um, uh, not very sustainable, but I'm, uh, going for, uh, three weeks writing, uh, vacation,

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: Yes. To, to finish the manuscript.

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: Yeah. So that's the big, big plan. And, uh, other than that, just continue to work with people that wants to make a world a better place. And, uh, that's my motivation behind it.

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: So I use LinkedIn a lot. Uh, I have an open profile there, so find me, I think. Uh, there are not a lot of Catherine Duartes there

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: uh, especially not in Norway. And, uh, also Instagram, uh, my name there, my handle is green katita, meaning, uh, little green Cathy in Spanish. Katita is, uh, small

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: Catita is, uh, yeah, that was, yeah, that's my nickname in Spanish. My, my

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: always call me that. Yeah. So I'm the little green catty.

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: Yes. So I'm thinking of maybe changing it, but I'm like, so yeah, [00:49:00] it's, um,

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: it's really me.

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: So I had people approaching me. It was so, it's a funny story.

I went to Oslo to the Oslo, um, which is the sauna, floating saunas, saunas outside the Oslo. And I was there swimming. This was in the middle of summer in August. And a girl approached me like, Oh my God, are you green Katita? And I'm like, yes, that's me. She was like, Oh, she makes a cool video. I felt that.

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: Influencer. Yes.

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: Yeah. It's mainly in Norwegian, but I, I'm thinking of making a little bit, um, subtitles in English and yeah. In the future. I have some plans there as well. Hmm.

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: Thank you, Vaslemai.

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: It was so much [00:50:00] fun.

katherine-duarte_1_09-26-2023_111411: Thank you. Thank you so much.

Microphone (HyperX Quadcast)-3: So that's it for today. I hope you found that inspiring and learnt a thing or two about good ways to communicate about complex topics like climate change. I will put the relevant links in the show notes so that you can find out more about Katherine and also get in touch with her. If you want to. Next episode will be the last one before Christmas.