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How to be persuasive with integrity, with Johnny Ball
27th September 2021 • The Personal Brand Entrepreneur Show. • Bob Gentle
00:00:00 00:35:21

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People tend to fall into one of two camps when it comes to persuasion.  

They either think it’s all sleazy manipulation and avoid it or they think it’s all sleazy manipulation and embrace it ( #bromarketers ).

Being persuasive, with intention and integrity is a skill which can be learned.  And for those whose products and services truly change lives - it’s important and a key part of your personal branding.

So how can you be persuasive with Integrity?  This week I’m speaking to Johnny Ball ( @speakinginfluence ), host of the Speaking Influence podcast about how anybody can be more persuasive when it matters.

About Johnny

Johnny Ball is the host of Speaking Influence, the podcast about the psychology and application of influence and persuasion in life and business.

He's a persuasive presentations coach, a professional speaker on topics like podcasting for thought leadership, ethical persuasion and how to get your message noticed.

Johnny's Site : https://presentinfluence.com/

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It's the FREE roadmap to starting, scaling or just fixing your expert business.

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Transcripts

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Welcome to Amplify the Personal Brand Entrepreneur Show today on the show, Bob is speaking with Johnny Ball.

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So if you really want to be someone who is looked at as a leader or someone who is in authority, then you must do some inner work as well as some master practical work to make that happen and be willing to have to drive to build that level of confidence up for yourself. Because I think when it's real, when that confidence is authentic, then it's very hard to argue, but when it's undeserved and people will still go for that. But the often is perceived as being shallow or undeserved as well.

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So confidence is a really huge part of this. And one of the reasons for that is because people respond to confidence.

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Hi there and welcome back to Amplify The Personal Brand Entrepreneurial. My name is Pop Gentle and every week I'm joined by incredible and inspiring people who share what makes their business works. If you're new to the show to second right now to subscribe in whatever player you use. And if you're listening on Apple podcasts, make sure you cheque the new follow option on the top right of the page. Otherwise Apple won't tell you there's a new episodes. This is a new thing. So please cheque that out before I jump.

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Introducing this week's guest, I have a new thing. After nearly 200 of these interviews, I've learned a thing or two and it turns out success leaves clues and I want to offer the map to you. So head on over to Amplify Me agency Forward Roadmap, I grab your copy of my brand new personal brand business blueprint everything you need to start, scale or just fix your expert business. It's yours for free as a gift for me. So let's get into it this week. I'm delighted to welcome John Ball the show.

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John, there's so much I want to ask you, but for those who maybe I don't know who you are, why don't you start just by telling us a little bit about who you are, where you are and the kind of work you do.

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I would love to be, but Firstly, thank you for inviting me on to the show is really great to be joining you. My name is John B, but my people call me Johnny and people who have grown up in the Seventies and Eighties in the UK would probably know why. That is a number. That's exactly why. And so I just kind of got used to it and decided that Johnny sounds a lot friendlier. Anyway, I am a persuasive presentations coach and I also help people get their persuasive podcast star as well.

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I'm working with people now on purpose driven missions and goals to help their audiences in the specific and unique ways, get their messages out there. And that's in podcasting and in life as well. And I help business owners particularly and coaches, speakers, entrepreneurs become more persuasive on whatever platform they're using, both in life and in business through a mixture of understanding the tools and weapons of influence and persuasion and various other tools and techniques that I have learned and picked up along the way. And I host a top podcast about public speaking about primarily about influence and persuasion tools.

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And so it covers a lot of public speaking and presentation stuff in there. I speak to psychologists and I have some ex cult members. I spoke into political speechwriters, negotiation skills experts, marketers brand experts, all sorts of things that relate to influence and persuasion and all the stuff that people would want to know about. I live in the city of Valencia in Spain, but I'm not from here. I was born in Manchester. If you can't tell from a cause, I lost it years and years ago and mostly live around Greater London area for most of my life until I made the decision to up sticks and try living somewhere else.

[:

I'm still hearing cult members entered when regular that people say, what did you want to do when you left school? And I always have struggled with that question. I mean, normal answer is pirate, space, pirate and Jeni adventure, but actually cult leader was on my list as well. Not about that. And if you knew me, I think this is why I'm quite keen to speak to you. If you knew me, I'm probably the least cult leader person you could ever meet, but for some reason it was always quite attractive to me.

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I could see you being quite good at that. Actually, Bob, you have the kind of voice that makes people lean in, so that's a good sign of influence. And that's an important factor for being a cult that you speak so and clearly. And you have that breathe quality to your voice that is actually very influential and can have I can have some powerful if it on people. I bet you get some comments from people about how much they like your voice from time to time. Right.

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Well, actually, that's another funny thing is I'm no teenager, but my whole life, nobody had ever mentioned my voice until I started the podcast. And for me it was what do you mean, you liked my voice? I spent most of my life being quite anxious and paranoid about my voice, and now, apparently, it's an asset. I'd never have considered that before, but you're absolutely right back to cult leaders. We're talking influence on persuasion. I think that's where we should start today and completers are probably a good example because they are influencing and they're influencing heavily, but it's actually quite negative and it's manipulative.

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And I think that's a lot of people's anxiety when you start talking about influence and persuasion, that it's it's an abuse is taking advantage. It's playing people. And I think that it's important for people to recognise is that not everybody knows what they want. Not everybody can discriminate between what's good for them and what's bad for them. And so being able to confidently express your position and influence somebody to do the things that are good for them. And the truth is, if you're selling anything, it better be good for the people that you're selling it to, because if it's not, you need to have a conversation with yourself like a cult leader.

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But let's assume what you're doing is good for the world. You should be able to confidently persuade people that they should take the actions that are good for them. And I may say that just to kind of cut through all the manipulation and the negativity around stereotyping people who have these conversations, it's important to be able to your case for good. And I think that's where we should start this conversation.

[:

I agree. And it's interesting. I had a chat recently with professor of rhetoric and rhetoric is one of the areas of influence on station that I love discussing and didn't really learn much about it until later in life. And I think lots of people don't encounter it now unless you've had in the UK, particularly unless you've had a private school education where you probably have encountered rhetoric and a lot of the things that relate to it, then you probably don't have much of a clue what or how it works, although you will have come into contact with some very clear examples of that, things like governmental, three word slogans and things of that.

[:

But what's interesting is that when it comes to rhetoric, these are tools of influence and persuasion that we have been aware of for centuries, from the times of the ancient Greek philosophers. Really from Plato. Aristotle. In fact, Aristotle's work on rhetoric still considered the seminal work today. He was one of the first people to really stop and study what made people influential. What made a difference when people were speaking and presenting and things haven't actually changed all that much. But his goal with all of that was that you should learn these tools so that you would be able to speak truth to power so that you would be able to share great messages with the world and put truth out into the world, not to manipulate, not to just work for your own needs, which often is what it ends up getting used for.

[:

Whilst there were some elements of that in the world of cuts cuts, really a more much more emotional based, although a lot of rhetoric does rely on that. A lot of rhetoric is linguistically based, but cult control of his that primarily targets emotions.

[:

So I guess to make this practical, if we take the idea of influence and persuasion and we apply it to the average business owner, what are the touch points where they might consider how persuasive they're being? So we have public speaking. We have broadcast the two natural platforms that you and I instinctively go to. But for a lot of business owners, they are maybe a next step element. How can we maybe explore being more persuasive in our day to day transactions? So we're in a meeting where on a sales call where sort of handling a situation with a team member, what would be, I guess, core skills that we should look at building out, well, definitely.

[:

One thing we should be looking at for ourselves is to have more confidence in who we are and how we show up, because your charisma is an important factor in being more influential in persuasion persuasive. So if you really want to be someone who is looked at as a leader, as someone who is in authority, then you must do some inner work as well as some after practical work to make that and be willing to have the drive to build that level of confidence up for yourself.

[:

Because I think when it's real, when that confidence is authentic, then it's very hard to argue against, but when it's undeserved and people will still go for that. But it often is perceived as being shallow or undeserved as well. So confidence is a really huge part of this. And one of the reasons for that is because people respond to confidence. If you put it this way, if you think, well, what should an intelligent person doing in a situation? Should they weigh up different sides of a matter and have take time to think about it?

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Go.

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And I don't really know the answer yet, but I'm going to think about this and let's give it some energy. Let's give some thought that seems like a really rational thing to do. And yet we're much more attracted to the person says, well, here's what to do. Let's just do this and straight away with the confidence of this is exactly what we need to do, whether it's right or wrong. That is more appealing to us. We like it when people are definite about things, and we do tend to assume that the person who is confident that has earned that authority to demonstrate their confidence.

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But that's not always the case from what you're saying.

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And I think this is an important thing that the inner work side of it is quite important. And influence and persuasion isn't something that you can hack. I think this is really what we're talking about. Influence that has depth. I think that requires personal growth to grow into that depth. How does this correlate with things like NLP, which I see as people trying to hack confidence and authority?

[:

Yeah. There are different types of confidence ultimately, and there is a confidence that comes from experience. And then there's a confidence. There is much more the attitude based confidence or being more gung Ho and going for things and just saying yes to things, making things working on the fly, that kind thing, the just different types of confidence and one you have to work one you have to build up over time or you end up kind of faking it ultimately that kind of confidence that you need to be confident as a business leader, for example, to be confident as a sales person, you have to build that up.

[:

But some people can get away with faking it if they know the right thing to do. So we need to understand that it was best saying, of course, we want people to use tools to influence and persuasion ethically. They can be hacked and they can be used for nefarious purposes. They can be used to come people to trick people. So I don't think that's particularly what NLP is generally about. But the reality is the people who are going to do that, they already figure this stuff out.

[:

Generally, they are already out there with an intention to do those kinds of activities. So really, what we need to do is arm everyone else to be able to utilise that to put good out into the world and also to recognise and combat the stuff that isn't.

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Here's a question. We have a business owner who wants to level up. He wants to play a bigger game in the world and he recognises or she recognises. I need to present differently. I need to start doing podcast interview. I need to start doing video content. I need to start doing public speaking. They may be written a book, and then they've never managed to push beyond that because of the fear of all these things that they've never done before. They know they have to start doing them, but they feel like they're not ready yet.

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What can we do to start cultivating that confidence? Yes, that's my question. Okay.

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The first thing is, even when you don't feel confident, it doesn't mean you shouldn't start. So really, unless somebody has such a paralysing terrible fear of doing this stuff, you just can't let it be a reason not to take action and start doing it anyway. If I think about the first time I ever got up on a stage in front of a group of people to speak. I was pretty terrified and probably a number of times after that where I got up to speak. I was also pretty terrified, and I think what was mostly terrified was what would people say afterwards?

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What would people really think to me? And that is generally the feel like people tend not to really be afraid of being on podcast, being interviewed, public speaking. What they tend to be afraid of is looking like an idiot afterwards or embarrassing themselves or not showing themselves in their best light or saying something, making mistakes and being a bit too perfection is the bad things that's what people tend to get hung up on. Is this going to damage me in the long run? Am I going to look like an idiot or in?

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I feel like an idiot for doing it. So that's really where people tend to get stuck here. And so it's that kind of thinking that gets people all in their heads thinking about everything that could go wrong, everything that they might not do right. And instead of just being present and relaxing and doing their best. And sometimes it does just take experience and practise to get to that level of being able to relax and put your best self forward and let go of the stuff that isn't perfect.

[:

Okay. I might have said something a bit stupid there, or I might not express myself as well as I want to. Can you do something about that? Great, if you can. And if you can't move on.

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I think you kind of hit the nail on the head there that the only way to get over fear is to move forward. I don't think an analogy I've often used as an elastic band that a comfort zone is much like an elastic band. There the stretch. But what's interesting is you stretch and elastic band enough and it actually stays in its stretched position. It expands essentially. And comfort zones are a lot like that. So what are some common mistakes that you see people making when they're attempting to be more persuasive, but they perhaps into the level of skill that they could be.

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They haven't put in the work.

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So to speak, it really depends on how they want to dissuade. So if we're talking about sales persuasion, I think the big mistake that I see people making and will try and help people with is people go into this sales person mode. I am selling now and suddenly I've gone into this sales mode. They feel it's sleazy. Their prospects feel is sleazy and people start getting turned off by that often. What seems to happen. People move out of this one thing to help, have great products, have a great service and suddenly think I have to sell you this now.

[:

Well, if you've done your job, you don't have to sell anything. That is a big mistake that people make. But another one is really just being being too uptight about things. And maybe this is a particularly common English trait, and I will put this down to England more than other parts of the UK and the world. There is a tendency to be quite emotionally uptight. Okay, maybe it is a sweeping generalisation, but it is there and it will stop people from expressing themselves fully from really going to some emotional places.

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And everything has to be super professional or that we have to be kind of clipped in our answers rather than actually engaging and having a warm, friendly conversation, even if it is about professional topics. So this idea that business and personal separate, it's kind of integrated. And I think people get enough on that have to project the professional image all the time have to live up to this image that you may have created about who you need to be in life or business, and that, for starters, may not be very authentic to who you truly are.

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And a lot of people get trapped in this idea of who they think they need to be rather than who they are.

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I think, as I've been in business, something you just made this conscious for me really is I've worked with people every level of business, from people who are fresh in the door, 19 year olds all the way through to multi million dollar business owners. And what's interesting is that the further up the hierarchy they go or the more successful personally to become, the more casual they are. And that's pretty universal. And so anybody who's looking at, well, how could I perhaps come across as more authentic and persuasive chill out is probably one of the key elements there.

[:

Yeah. Interesting. But, you know, that I used to be a flight attendant with very well known certain British airline, and I worked in first class a lot of the time as well whilst I was there, and you would see that difference, even even in that environment, that most people who were travelling first class unless they were there, like, for a one off experience, most of them were regular first class Flyers, and they were all just really relaxed about everything. And you think what everything doesn't everything has to be absolutely super perfect up there.

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No, really, that never mattered. It actually that sort of thing seemed to matter much more in business class than in first class. And I guess that attitude spreads to other parts of life as well. When you've made it, you don't you don't have to trying to make it anymore.

[:

Yeah. Let's talk about podcasting then, specifically because that's an area of focus for you. And I think for a lot of people, it should be an area of focus for you because for me, podcasting has been life changing. I can't there's no two ways that I could really put that as a host, and certainly more recently, being quite intentional about being a guest and bringing as much value as I can into other people's audiences. And that has led to opportunities that I couldn't even begin to describe.

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Additionally, it's had an impact on the circle of people that I know I feel crass calling it contacts or network because it goes way beyond that. These are friends and friends help friends, as you know. And obviously my business now revolves around that. But if anybody is looking at building their confidence and breaking into public speaking and have a greater impact, I don't think there's anything more accessible and potentially powerful for you than podcasting. And that's really where you put a lot of emphasis now is helping people make that transition into becoming podcasters and podcast guests.

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What advice would you have for anybody is thinking?

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I.

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Don'T think I could do that. Or be. You know what? I think I should maybe do that.

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There are many different types of podcast, and I have maybe more than one answer for this. But the kinds of people who I am working with in terms of getting their podcast out there started giving them the launch plans and getting things working and running smoothly. More people who have a message, you have a purpose who feel that they have a mission to be out in the world, they're making a difference and making things better. And those are the people who I want to help, because right now we are still in a situation where some live stuff is coming back.

[:

But Sam isn't and still things are very uncertain. So virtual events and podcasts are still big and still very in demand. All of the speaking requests that I get on the opportunities I get at the moment are virtual, and I'm okay with it. I love doing it, although I mis travel a little bit, but not so much. I don't feel quite ready to do that myself, but this is where there's an opportunity right now, and it's not going to go away, because with the pandemic and everything, more and more people have switched to these kinds of things.

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Online education is growing, and podcasting is a very big part of the online educational world that is very expensive to start and do and really only demands you some time and energy into putting a show together. But for people who have a message that they want to share, for people who actually want to stand there in their industry, podcasting can be a very powerful way to do that. And so I think it's great actually to have both. Why not have both? If you can start a podcast that is very much about you getting the opportunity to showcase what you know and what you talk about and bring in other experts and people who would be interesting for you to talk with.

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Not only are you going to start rubbing shoulders and making great friends with top experts on being more associated with the leading people in your industry. But you are going to be seen in that light as well, not just by Association, but because people will think about you in relation to your podcast and the kinds of things that you talk about. So it does set you out as a speaker, as someone who's likely to get invited for opportunities that relate to the area that you're podcasting about.

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If you really want to be known, then getting on other people's podcasts as a guest that are relevant to the kinds of audiences that you would want to be attracting is going to be much more powerful for you. In terms of being known. You can become pod famous now, and so it requires work. It requires some effort and energy, but it's still going to be a lot more achievable than trying to regularly get yourself on TV, though, if you can do both, do both. But podcasting has huge opportunities for really standing out as a thought leader, as an expert in what you do.

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But the other side of that is you have to bring the goods if you're faking it. If you don't really have the goods, you're not going to last very long.

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I think that's absolutely true. And I think that's why it's important to pick your podcast, and it's also Additionally important to know what you want to be known for. Again, this was a problem for me for a long time that I didn't really know what my area of focus was. And then I decided to focus on the expert business, the personal brand entrepreneur, because that was where I felt called there's nothing lights me up more than seeing somebody unlock their potential and build a business around it.

[:

But I guess you don't have to know exactly what your thing is today. Just pick something. Let's take a lawyer as an example. I'm going to roll the dice here and take a chance that then we have a lawyer listening and he's thinking, what could I possibly podcast about? And how could that possibly make any kind of contribution to my business? What kind of response might you offer them?

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I have a few ideas ultimately depends on if they want to do this for professional purposes or not, and the chances are that they will, then there is no need to small with this. Having a podcast that may be about one particular aspect of the law. There are one of the most successful brands of podcast right now is true crime stuff. So if you do criminal law and you think that could be a great area to speak about and you could actually use highlight industry cases, true crime podcasts are very, very popular.

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That would be a great area to go into. However, if you're in a tough law, equity and trust law stuff that way I did law at University and equity and trust law would put me to sleep. If you can make that interesting and talk about it in a way that is going to be really helpful. There will be people who will tune into your show. Some of them may be lawyers, law students and the likes, but some of them move who maybe you're potentially going to have episodes there's like, well, here's what to do if you're in this kind of situation or here's some of the legal options for these kinds of things.

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And let's take a look at remedies in this kind of situation or maybe even have some consultation kind of based EPS. Sowell I'll give you a consultation for free for 20 minutes. But we're going to turn it into a podcast. That's the price. That is stuff that people would tune into and could be very, very powerful for establishing you as a leader. Really, because I doubt that that many other people are doing it.

[:

That kind of brings me to the monetization side of things, because when people think about podcasting and generating revenue through podcast, they automatically think ad revenue. The truth is that's a marginal element for most podcasters. If we take the example of the lawyer, yes, it might attract some clients, but it's going to attract all kinds of other opportunities. It's very likely going to attract speaking opportunities. It's likely going to attract panellist opportunities, potentially on television radio. It's also potentially going to attract training opportunities. There's all kinds of opportunities that can come out of being a podcast guest or a podcast host.

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Yeah.

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What are some of the strangest ways you've heard of people monetizing a podcast.

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There are multiple ways to do it now. And you're right ad revenue as the one that everyone was focused on that for the longest time, because that was the primary way. I don't think it is now, you know, unless you have 10,000 plus regular downloads for every episode sort of thing, then I wouldn't even bother looking at ad revenue, to be honest. So affiliate marketing make the most sense. If you have products and services that are going to be relevant to your audience, that may not be the in direct competition with you.

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Then run some ads on your show, ads for other shows. Do add sort of the people grow your own show, grow your own brand. But those are probably some of the best ways right now to be looking at making money. But yeah, in getting people into your own products and services, having your own book or your course or programme, those can be great ways to get some income. One of the biggest ways that people are making money with smaller podcasts that don't have those necessarily hundreds and thousands of downloads for every episode is selling their own courses and programmes.

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And I think this is something that a lot of people don't consider when they don't have an audience is they don't imagine necessarily what life would be like with an audience, because with audiences come opportunities. And until you have some kind of audience, you want to understand what those opportunities could be. So. But it's important for anybody listening to understand his focus on building the audience, serve that audience, and then they'll tell you what they want and they'll bring you the opportunities to monetize. I think that's that's probably the most important lesson for me.

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And don't let not having a complete plan or a complete vision hold you up, just sort of start moving and you'll learn as you're all.

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I think one thing that I will say with this is a lot of people very unsure about do they really want to have their own podcast? And that's why the people should actually start with guessing on other people's podcasts before they start their own. So you start to get a feel for it. You'll start getting connected with people, and that should give you some idea about whether you actually do want to have your own podcast or not, and you're going to get that experience. I don't think it's essential that everyone does have their own show, but if you're not sure about it, start trying out some guesting on other people's shows and you're going to start getting the benefits of podcasts for starters there.

[:

Then you can see a bit later on if you actually would like to have your own show as well. Because podcasting is a long game, you know, for most people, unless you already have a big following or you already quite well known, then it takes quite a while and quite a lot of energy. An audience is hard but totally worth it.

[:

I mean, it's hard, but I don't think there's anything more productive that anybody could do for their career. If people want to connect with you. If anybody's listening thinking, I need to be a bit more effective in my presentation style. Be that on a podcast or on a stage or in any situation where you have to communicate or they're thinking, yeah, I think I need to do something about podcasting. Take those first steps. Well, action would you like them to take?

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I would like to get in touch with me. I mean, whether you want to be a little bit more influential or persuasive or a lot more, then there's a lot you can do and there's a lot can help with, especially if you are someone who needs to be up in front of people speaking and presenting in any capacity in your professional life. Then there's a lot you can do to make sure that you can turn that up to make you fully advantageous for you and have you standing out as an extant Needer in touch, visit my website.

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Present influence. Com. You can take the quiz, the quiz there to find out how persuasive you are, and I have other resources as well. Get in touch with me on LinkedIn. Send me a message and you can cheque out some of the courses on my website as well. If you're interested in signing up for a cause or a programme and I'd love to hear from you, I see how I can help you, Johnny.

[:

I just remembered what I was going to say. Okay, and this for the listener is important. You know what's interesting? When I go on other people's podcasts, people contact me at me and say, I really enjoyed that. When people listen to my podcast, they don't say a thing. So if you're listening to this podcast, I think I'll have to think and should let Bob know I listen from time to time. Just do it. You won't believe how much I would appreciate that. I think that's something is common with a lot of podcasters as their audiences.

[:

It's often a very yeah, yeah, yeah.

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We would always as podcasters love to hear about from our audience because we want to know what people want. What do you like? What we have to base it on stacks. Otherwise we're just basing on which episodes of people downloading the most and have got the best feedback. Or maybe there are some episodes where you might occasionally get a review, but actually getting audience interaction is tough.

[:

Yeah, Johnny, you have been great fun. I have one question I'm going to ask you, which I ask every guest at the end of the interview. Normally I give them some morning. The listener doesn't know this, but I do. I've forgotten to give you warning. So what's one thing you do now that you wish it started five years ago?

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Oh, boy.

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Yeah, I do not cut the silence.

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So you I do wish I have some warning for that one thing I do know that I didn't do five years ago. Well, I do. Actually, the one thing is on my mind is what I'm doing right now. Earlier this year I invested in a stand up desk and it has made the world of difference to me. I am no longer sat down all day if I have to do writing, which I do sometimes do for content creation, another desk that I go and sit at. But for stuff like this where I find my energy is better for speaking and presenting when I'm standing up and I don't like this whole thing of being sat down all day, so it's health wise.

[:

I think it's massively better. So I would mix that actually is the other thing it makes me think of is the ketogenic diet that I do. So the mixture of key to genic diet intermittent fasting and having a standard desk. There's a few other things around that as well. They've made all the difference to my brain clarity, to my energy to not feeling sourced at the end of the day and not feeling like an gradually running myself down by being sat down with those are things that I wish I'd started sooner.

[:

That's a great answer. And you know what's funny? I have one of these robotics standing desks that goes up and down and I'm sitting down when I should be standing up. Just there you go.

[:

I do all my podcasting standing up.

[:

I probably should. Johnny Ball, you have been an awesome guest. I've really enjoyed myself. Thank you so much for your time. I look forward to speaking to you again. Hopefully really soon met up.

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I've enjoyed it.

[:

Before I go. Just a quick reminder to subscribe and join our Facebook group. You'll find a link in the show notes or visit Amplify Me FM Forward Slash Insiders also connect with me wherever you hang out. You'll find me on all the social platforms at Pop Gentle. If you enjoyed the show, then I would love a five star review on Apple podcast. It would make my day. And if you share the show with a friend, you would literally make my golden list. My name is Pop gentle, thanks to you for listening.

[:

And I'll see you next week.

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