Grief and loss is something each one of us experiences, over and over, throughout our lives. And yet, God promises not only to sustain in those losses but to grow and transform us through them. Rev. Michael Newman, President, Texas District LCMS, is the author of a new book, “Getting Through Grief.” He sits down with host Matt Popovits to discuss it and to help us understand what God is up to in our seasons of pain and loss.

The following program is sponsored by evangelical life ministries.

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Welcome to engaging truth. I'm your host, Matt Popovits. And with me on the program today is Michael Newman. He's the president of the Texas district of a Lutheran church, Missouri Sy. He's also the author author of a new book on grief, and that's the subject of our conversation today, grief loss, and moving through it all with hope, welcome to engaging truth. Mike,

It's great to be with you, Matt. It's

Good to have. You've been on the program before we always have a good conversation with you. And I feel what we're gonna talk about today is something that's just really timely and really essential given what we are continuing to go through, uh, as a, as a country, as a world with, with COVID. Um, and, and that's, that's a conversation about, about, about grief and loss. Um, because I feel like for many of us COVID has equaled loss, um, so many different ways. Um, but, but I wanna start at a really kind of basic basic level here and, and just get to an understanding of what we mean when we save the word grief. So you you've written a book on grief, but what, what do we mean when we say that word? What is grief?

Yeah, it's a great question. And I, I actually, as I've written these books on grief and my previous book to just took a look at that in the Bible, like what, what in the world does that word really mean? And it really boils down to something. I think listeners can understand it boils down to sorrow, the sense of so, and, uh, that stems from loss, uh, something missing. And so, uh, I think, uh, people can relate to what it means to feel sorrowful or sad. And so, you know, God experiences sorrow when he loses the people he loves when they fall away from, from him or reject him. Uh, we experience sorrow when someone we love is missing from our lives because of their death or in relationships, a broken relationship, or when we are sorrowful about not having had the childhood, perhaps we'd hope for, or a, or, um, so it's, it's even, you know, there's, there's sorrow when a big part of your life is taken away, like a job that you poured your life into and there's sorrow when you lose a pet or when there's a dramatic change in your life.

And so it really boils down to that, that that feeling you have in your soul, that understanding that something is gone is missing and you become overwhelmed by it, or just hurt by it. Or it has a kind of a cloud, a haze in your life because it, and you can't control it. That's the thing, you know, that loss, tears, something away from you. And it's almost like a physical pain. So grief really boils down to that sorrow.

So it's, it's not just death when we talk about grief, although that's a, that's a, certainly a big part of it. But I think for many, when we think grief or grieving, we think of that pain. We feel after having lost someone that we love to death. Uh, but, but it's, but it's, it's really wider than that. It's, it's all the losses we experience. Am I hearing you correctly?

It sure is. Yeah. And death is a very severe loss that creates very deep and lasting sorrow, but I'll tell you, you know, I've talked with people and I wouldn't say it's the ultimate sorrow all the time, because sometimes people who have gone through divorce say they feel that the grief, the wound continues after that breakup takes place, because there's always a reminder, you know, and that can happen in death too, but it happens with, uh, relationships and with children and parents, if there's a disruption or some sort of alienation there, sometimes the reminders continue to wound and the, the grief continues. Um, so yeah, it it's across the spectrum

And sometimes people can feel maybe silly at times admitting the fact that they feel a sense of loss over, over certain things. You know, be it be it, you know, a, a, a job or, um, uh, a possession or, uh, uh, a relationship that, that, that, uh, isn't what it once was. You know, sometimes I've heard in my own pastoral care that I offer to people. They feel like, I, I know, I, I shouldn't feel this way. I shouldn't feel this way. Um, people tend to minimize their, the grief or the loss that they feel over certain things. Um, do, do you, have you experienced that as well? Yeah. You

Know, we, we underestimate our hearts. Our Western culture is very intellectual, uh, analytical, practical, and task driven. And so especi, she, in our culture, we tend to underestimate the impact of life on our hearts. And it varies from person to person depending on, um, perception and just our makeup. But I'll tell you when my younger daughter was little, we saw that she was a very sentimental person. And so we would leave a place. We stayed on vacation and she would be sad. You know, she would cry. It was a change, it was something new and adjustment. She had to grieve and mourn every little change. And, and that's just how her heart is. She's like that to this day, others can say, okay, see you, we're gonna go back to the normal, you know, they don't, they don't think about it, but I think along the levels of our hearts, we do experience grief in varieties of way, a variety of ways.

And it's important for us to get back in touch with that, cuz our, our cultures also kind of a microwave culture where we say, okay, um, gonna go through this experience, gonna be done with it. Even if it's something like graduating from college or high school, all right, it's done, let's move on. We underestimate the fact that there are friendships and relationships and rhythms in life that we are now losing, that are moving away from us and our hearts need to catch up and we need to process that not just intellectually, but also in the terms of what loss and change really mean in our lives.

So, so, you know, do you feel like it's important for us to, to recognize whatever grief it is that we feel not, not to just kind of push it away, but, but whether it's a more for, for lack of a better phrase is kind of petty grief or a substantial grief, like, like it's important, it's healthy for us to, to recognize, yeah, I'm sad over X, Y, Z not being in my life anymore, or ABC being different. That it's, that it's healthy and important for us to, to call those things out, to name them, to feel them to, to, to, to, to go through the process of grieving both so big and something

Small, it sure is. Yeah. Very important because if we don't acknowledge it and just travel with it for a little bit and understand what we're feeling, because it'll surface again here and there, if we don't do that, it's gonna go somewhere. You know, our sense of grief and loss is always gonna make its home somewhere or find expression in some way. So if we just push it down and say, I'm gonna ignore it, it will come out maybe in some harmful ways. So it could be manifested in terms of temper anger. Then that happens a lot with adolescence where those emotions very frequently are translated into anger or temper. Uh, it may manifest itself in an attempt to anesthetize ourselves in unhealthy ways with some sort of, you know, drinking or drugs or eating or acting out in some way. Um, it may to, uh, some sort of spiral into depression because we're not actually processing even the physical hormones that are, uh, taking place because of grief. So it's really, really important that we acknowledge it, understand it, and then find constructive ways to journey through it and be brought through grief. And that was, you know, one of the big reasons I wrote my latest book,

The, the name of your latest book is called getting through grief eight biblical gifts for living with loss. Um, and, and you mentioned this, this is not your first work on the subject of grief. Uh, where does this, uh, where does this, uh, attention towards grief and this focus on grief come from for you? Does it, does it drive out of, uh, a, a personal story for you?

Yeah. You know, it's interesting because, uh, when I wrote my first book official book on grief, grief, uh, hope when your heart breaks, I was asked to, to write the book, Hey, we think, you know, why don't you write a book on grief? And I had to think about it a little bit and as I pondered it, I thought, you know, that probably makes sense because my life story has been immersed in grief, not willingly. It didn't play it this way. And I don't know if I always reflected on that, but even as I look at, uh, most of my books, uh, they have to, they, they deal with subjects that probably tend to be a little more depressing, which I think, okay, that's, that's the way that's my pathway. You know, God wired me that way. And I didn't like it initially. Uh, I think I see God using it.

So, you know, as I, I grew up in a home that was really a challenging place to be. There was a lot of my parents' marriage was not good at all, a lot of arguing, uh, and even at exhibited itself in, uh, some violent behavior in my home, you know, to us in my, toward me and my two brothers, it was a turbulent place every day, uh, that I can recall. Uh, so it was kind of, it was tough. So I lived in this turbulence and chaos and difficulty and a lot of sadness and then mixed in with that. Uh, I had a very big family, so my wife or excuse me, my mom is, uh, one of 10 brothers and sisters from a huge Greek family in Chicago. And just like my big fat Greek wedding. That was how I grew up. That was it.

It's a lot of drama, a lot of craziness, but intermingled with that, when you have a big family in the age, span is so large, you end up encountering a lot of grief. So there were many deaths, many funerals from an early age, I was exposed to grieving cousins and grieving aunts and uncles, and some were pretty, very, very tragic. So, uh, one of the most hell was my own grandfather. He owned a store in Chicago, dry cleaners. And one day when I was about nine years old, a couple of robbers came into the store while he was open, demanded money. And because he didn't act quickly enough or they panicked, uh, one of the robbers shot him in the chest and he, uh, didn't die right away, but, uh, was transported the hospital and unable to survive the gunshot wound. It was a couple, you know, I don't know if an inch from his heart and he passed away, uh, after that.

And obviously, you know, when, and people know this more, I think it gets more publicity these days. When you are a family member of someone who's a victim of a, a shooting, a violent act, a murder, it really forces you to say, you know, what is this all about? How do I deal with the anger, uh, the shock, the trauma, the sadness, the loss. And so that started at an early age. And then, you know, it just continued. Uh, my cousin was a Vietnam veteran and came home from Vietnam, really, uh, disturbed by it, addicted to drugs. And that caused his death not long after his arrival home. And he was in his twenties, a young man broke his father and mother's hearts. Uh, another cousin I had while when I was in college, uh, this cousin was shot and killed along with her fiance in their apartment in Chicago.

She was just a bright, shining, wonderful, uh, young lady, one of my favorite cousins. And so again, shock and trauma. And, you know, I can talk about these things easily now, but wow. You know, when you go through those things, they, they make an indelible print. They form your life and they send you down a course of resting with God, with others, with what is right and wrong, uh, with your own heart. So I, I just have had this overwhelming exposure to loss in my life. And I could go on, I mean, there's a, there's just a one thing after another, but I think I'm a living witness to the fact that God can get you through it in a miraculous way. You can't do it yourself, but he does give these gifts to take you on a journey through it and even use it for his good and make you a better person from it. Well, let's talk

About, so some of those gifts, what, when you, when you say in the title of the book, biblical gifts for living with loss, are, are, are you talking about how God gives us things to sustain us as he journeys us through loss and, and, and, and, and grief.

Yeah. In addition to sustaining us actually to form us and lead us through in his grace and forming our hearts and restoring our hearts and souls. That's the beautiful thing about this? You know, the, the first thing I think anyone who's experienced loss needs to remember is that you do need to dwell in that for a while. And especially if there's a severe and traumatic loss, this is something that takes a lot of time. Um, and you need to just honor that. So you can't hurry your way out of it, uh, or, or just live in denial. I remember, you know, I went through a real challenging time in the first couple years of my ministry. I remember even thinking during that time, God has prepared me for this because I, I I've been through this kind of thing before, but it was a terribly conflicted congregation and, uh, open arguments in con congregational meetings, uh, breaking up fist fights, uh, death threats.

I mean, it was really severe and nearly drove me outta ministry. I think God's, God's the one who kept me in ministry, but it, it took me 10 years before I could talk about that without the nervous shut in my stomach 10 years. And that made me realize that, you know, this is a long journey. I mentioned in the book, uh, one person I heard, uh, on a podcast, pretty renowned person who lost his brother, his younger brother when they were younger. And he said for the rest life to this day, he's 50% melancholy all the time, just because of that experience. So, you know, these experiences have, uh, have lasting impacts and it's okay that they do. They're part of your story. So I think first of all, you know, before getting to the gifts, you need to, to realize that you need to dwell in that grief and dwell not alone, but with God.

And of course, you know, counselors and friends and the church. And we talk about that in the book too, but, um, you need to honor the loss and recognize the loss and just sit with it, you know, and not hurt and not say I gotta get on with this. Um, what this book does is say it, it says, you know, at, at a point in your grief, when you say, I think I'm ready to take the first step, I think I'm ready to live again. You know, then this book says, here are some things God has been doing and is doing right now to take you on the journey through it. So, uh, you know, you'll be, I, I use the metaphor of a pit. You'll be out of that dark pit and you'll be ready to live again. Uh, and God does provide these things, you know, so that the first gift really is just hearing his voice and crying out to him. I call it conversation.

And that's, I think the one thing to do, even as you're just living with the trauma and the loss initially, whether it be, uh, for a month or two, cuz you lost a pet, you don't want to adopt another dog right now. You just need to, you just need to hang on and remember and grieve. Or if it's the first decade of walking through this, a lot of times, if someone loses a loved one, I, I just tell 'em, Hey, you know, you're not gonna get to ground zero until the first year until you've been through all those holidays and anniversaries and special days, then you'll go from negative, you know, whatever to zero and be ready to at least think about what this means for your life. But the first gift is just letting hearing God's voice in the midst of that in the pit, in the valley.

And he speaks to us through his word, you know, such tremendous words of encouragement and comfort and grace and replenishment every day. And then being able to cry out to him in prayer. That's the conversation, right? God speaks first. And we just say like the Psalmist, how long or Lord, you know, have you cast me aside? You know, do you hate me? Are you angry with me? You process these things in prayer with God understanding that he can take it all. And that is really such an important dynamic for these first steps of getting through grief.

You know, that might be a new concept for, for our listener. The, the, the idea of, of crying out to God with some raw, honest pain. I mean, are, are, are you saying that it's okay for us to, to kind of shake our fist at God in our grief and just be like, wh why is this happening? Uh, it feels like you've, it feels like you've forgotten me. Um, uh, I can't, I can't endure this, this, this loss, this grief anymore, is it, is it okay for us to, to take the emotion and even some of the anger and just lift it upward in prayer towards God? Is that

Okay? Yeah. You know, it's, it's a great question. It's so important to raise because sometimes people think, oh, I've gotta, I've gotta look good to God. You know, I've gotta make sure I don't say anything and get me in trouble with him. And yeah. Um, you know, put on a show and everything's copacetic and if I'm gonna pray, it's just gonna be for some other important, big deals in my life. And it's so important to know that throughout, uh, the Bible, which is, you know, the Bible, isn't a book of perfect people. The Bible is just a book of people journeying through life and they show that God's in it, you know, and God is doing his thing. Uh, so exactly. Yeah. You know, mother Teresa, I like to quote her, uh, she said before she died, the first thing she's gonna say to Jesus in heaven is you got a lot explaining to do , you know, and so really that kind of spirit of, Hey God, I do not get it.

And all through the Bible, we have people shouting at God expressing their anger and sadness and confusion, uh, from cover to cover, you know, even Jesus in the garden. We just, uh, got through holy week, you know, he said, father, take this cup from me, but if you're not gonna do it, not your will, but mind done with tears, with sweat, with stress, with anxiety, uh, he despaired unto death. I mean, that sounds like some real depression to me. Yeah. And carrying a heavy burden. And he shouted it out to his father in heaven, not knowing the answer, uh, immediately, but trusting that God is, could take it, you know, could take it all. So yeah, the, I think every listener should be able to just shout it out. And the Bible says that the holy spirit intercedes with Gros too deep, for words. So just our groaning and moaning that we can't even articulate. God wants that from us and in his hands, it's much better than on our shoulders.

Mm, absolutely. And, and, and you mentioned we, we, we're just on the other side of Easter Sunday as you and I have this conversation and E Easter Sunday, uh, the resurrection of Jesus Christ is, is full of hope for grieving people. Uh, as we, as we wind down our conversation, what, what is, what is some, just some of the hope that's to be found for people who are grieving all kinds of losses on the other side of resurrection Sunday,

You know, the great thing about resu of Jesus is it's the ultimate demonstration that if anyone could get us through grief, if anyone could get us through pain, through suffering, even through death, it is Jesus who conquered death. We have a captain of this ship on the journey through grief. And that's where our hope is. You know, I have a youth version of this book too, which I think is maybe even be more important than the adult version, cuz kids need this hope too, that God will get you through it when you are weak and absolutely helpless, he will pour out his gifts to bring you through to a place you never imagined or expected. I'm a personal example of that. And there's so many around us and I hope every listener knows that they ha they have that hope through Jesus. And I hope they can share it with their friends too, because this is what we need these days. Isn't it true? Yeah. Yeah.

With, yeah. I mean a, a part of the message of good Friday and Easter is that on the other side of loss is life when you're with Jesus, right. You know, with that's right on the other, on the other side of loss with Jesus is life. I mean, and, and he says that of himself, I'm their resurrection and life. Um, people who die when they're connected to me, don't really die. Yeah. I mean, you could probably even say people who lose things when they're connected to me, don't actually lose things. That's right. Because he promises in the end to restore all things and make it good. Mike, Mike, where can, where can people get this book? Where can people, uh, get, get their hands on this and other resource that you've created,

Hey, they can find it anywhere. Uh, of course Amazon through any book seller, uh, my website is M newman.org. That's just my first initial M and then wman.org. All my books are there with links. And of course

The publisher, Concordia publishing house, great resources. They could find him in all those places.

Wonderful. I, I, and I hope our listeners check them out. Wonderful resources, uh, from a great guy, president Newman, president of the Texas district of the Lutheran church, Missouri sin. Thank you as always for being a guest here on engaging truth.

It is a joy, Matt, God, you,

God bless you. And, and thank you for listening and we hope you'll join us right here next time. Thanks guys.

Thank you for listening to this broadcast of engaging truth. Be sure to join us each week at this time, to help support our ministry, contact evangelical life ministries, post office Fox, Cypress, Texas, 77, 400 or Elm houston.org, or find us on Facebook evangelical ministries. You.