Rory and Greg sit down with Chad Posick, a professor of criminal justice and criminology at Georgia Southern University. Chad also plays guitar in the Georgia-based hardcore band Cult Body. Chad, Greg, and Rory have known each other for almost 30 years. The three grew up in Fairport, NY, and become friends through skateboarding and their love of Rochester Hardcore.

In addition to being a college professor, Chad has published over 35 articles and has participated and lead projects related to investigating the reporting of hate crime by victims, a nation-wide police-community interaction survey project, and an anti-gang initiative.

Presently, Chad is focused on research and advocacy efforts for children who have been the victims of abuse. He speaks about practical ways the average person can get involved and help children by becoming a Court Appointed Special Advocates (CASAs). CASAs are people who help children who were victims of abuse during the legal process when a parent is unable to do so. Oftentimes CASAs are necessary because the parent is the perpetrator of abuse.

Chad, Rory, and Greg also discuss policing reform, the rise of authoritarianism, ICE, and the importance of grassroots, community based movements. The episode concludes with an update on Cult Body and a series of shows the band recently played in southern Georgia and Florida.

This episode is a nice companion piece to the episodes featuring Will Cleveland and Katy Otto.

Mentioned in this episode:

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Yeah, these guys are doing awesome work.

So one, one thing I, I would like to put out there is that there's an organization, or I guess usually through an organization you can become what's called a casa.

So it's a court appointed special advocate casa, and that's somebody who stays with a child going through the court system when they've been maltreated by a parent.

We know that most child abuse and neglect is, is the perpetrators tend not to be in the home.

So which complicates the ability for that child to have somebody that's advocating on their best behalf as you're going through the court system.

And so CASAs are volunteers who make a commitment to be with that child throughout their court experience.

And having that mentorship and having somebody there is really invaluable for helping them just with all the issues that they're dealing with during that process.

So CASAs are very common.

I can assume there's one close in your local area, but that's just a great organization to become involved with.

And any sort of child advocacy organization that you might have, it might be through the district attorney's office or a nonprofit organization.

And so that's one thing I would really like to plug.

And then again, like I said, kind of getting involved with the community.

All right, welcome to Common Thread.

Today we have on an old friend of Rory and I who grew up in Fairport with us and skateboarded in all the cool spots and listened to all the cool bands.

Chad Pak.

Chad, how are you?

Good, good.

Super happy to be here with you guys.

It's been a little while and so super stoked to be on the.

On the podcast.

Yeah.

I straight up don't know.

The last time I talked to you, it was probably over 10 years, but I have to say you've aged very well.

I'm starting to notice that, like, people are looking old.

It's kind of freaking me out.

But you're doing good.

I gotta admit, before jumping on here, I had a shave a little bit because when it gets longer, it just looks grayer.

Yeah.

Like, okay, I'm gonna try not to look super gray at this point, but.

I have that too in my beard.

But luckily I just lost all, you know, I lost all my hair on the top of my head, so I don't have to watch that go gray.

So, Chad, you have, like, a really cool professional background that I think is super relevant to everything that's going on, you know, nationally, even locally in our country.

Can you kind of Give us the LinkedIn profile come to life version of like what you do between nine, five.

Yeah, absolutely.

So at the moment I am a professor at Georgia Southern University, which is a sort of like a, a research intensive university in Southeast Georgia.

It was actually my first job out of graduate school, so.

Oh wow.

I, I came down here after doing my, my graduate work at Northeastern University in Boston, had an interview here.

It really kind of fell in love with it.

It's a, it's a small college town but with good people doing good things.

So 13 years again kind of goes back to that being a little bit old or feeling a little bit old.

It's kind of gone by pretty quickly.

But I am in the Department of Criminal justice and Criminology and so like I mentioned it's, it's, it's kind of a computer comprehensive university.

I probably teach about two classes a semester because we are expected to do quite a bit of research in this area.

And so for the last few years most of my teaching has been around exposure to violence and so that has been child abuse and neglect as well as sort of exposure to street crime, youth, gang violence.

And the other half of my job is doing research basically on those same, same area.

So my research really corresponds with those teaching obligations.

And so a lot of my work is centered around that as well as, you know, trying to apply for money to do some, some in depth research which has been pretty interesting these days with the amount of grants that are available for certain type of work.

So that's made it a little bit more challenging but certainly something that I'm really involved with.

So you, you put out a lot there.

Your credentials.

Do you have, you have a master's degree?

Do you have a PhD?

Like what, what kind of work?

You mentioned you went to Northeastern.

I also remember you going to RIT for a while kind of.

What, what's your educational background?

Yeah, so I guess I'll take the semi long route with that.

So I, I do have a, a two year degree in environmental conservation.

So getting out of high school as you both wasn't, wasn't the most stellar student, maybe didn't really know what I wanted to do, but certainly was very, very interested in, in certain areas and environmental conservation was one and so Finger Lakes Community College had a great conservation program.

So that's where I started and got a two year degree in conservation there and thought I wanted to get into biology because I was sort of like okay, well, I'm kind of interested in these areas.

I think biology is probably where I should go next, which really wasn't the case.

You know, kind of moving from these ideas, like things I was interested in in terms of climate change, looking at biodiversity, kind of moving into just like the nitty gritty of biology.

I was like, I don't know if I want to do this for the rest of my life.

And so obviously, as you know, I both, you know, my first semester at Finger Lakes Community College was, was 911 in September.

And I had already been kind of really interested in public policy, particularly around kind of criminal justice issues.

So that, that was bringing in sort of this terrorism angle and sort of policies to respond to 911 that were questionable in terms of legality and effectiveness.

And so I was like, you know what?

I don't know, like maybe sort of that criminology angle would be kind of interesting.

And just through some Internet searches, I found that Rochester Institute of Technology had a really good criminal justice and criminology program.

And so I went to their open house and was like, okay, this is, this is really interesting.

So I stayed there for my bachelor's degree.

And while I was there, I started working with a professor who at the time was working on a project called Project Safe Neighborhoods or PSN before that.

So like every president for, you know, US President comes in and has their own initiative.

So before that, Bill Clinton had his.

But this is, this is George W. Bush at the time had his called Project Safe Neighborhoods.

We really focusing in on neighborhood violence.

And that's where I actually got to go work in the community, work with law enforcement, work with community members that were, you know, exposed to, to violence, do interviews with people that were in prison on juvenile probation.

And again, I think that further solidified just my interest in getting to understand, you know, communities and their experience with violence.

And so I stayed on for my master's degree in public policy at RIT with a heavy emphasis on continuing those criminal justice programs.

Then I guess I still wanted to keep going with it.

And so I went to Northeastern in Boston for my PhD.

I spent four years there living in Medford and doing a lot of work in the community with the plus Boston Police Department, but also on a federal grant that looked that was considering new federal hate crime laws.

So prior to that there was no federal hate crime law.

There was local, state state level laws.

And so that really again, kind of open the doors to really can start looking at victimization as well as sort of working closely with law enforcement and policing departments.

Again, you put, put out a lot there.

Just as an aside, I, I encountered someone in my role at the library that you went to RIT with.

You know, Nick R. I don't know.

I won't drop his name on the, on the podcast because he's not.

Didn't get his permission ahead of time.

But he's someone who volunteers at the library that I work at and is a regular library user and is, if I'm being honest, probably one of the types of people that I look at and think this is the kind of person that I want, I want to make a library that attracts these kind of people.

You know, he also works in, in a criminal justice.

He's, he's a professor at rit.

Probably doxed him enough now that people can piece together from context clues who exactly he is.

But it was super meaningful for me because I have regular interactions with him that he kind of knew you on a personal level.

And I imagine some of the work he does seems like it's pretty, pretty similar to the work that you do.

He's like, his work seems more like analyzing statistics to kind of inform how the criminal justice system and police departments might be reformed in a variety of ways.

Does the work you do get into like policing reform or is it more about supporting victims and victim advocacy?

Yeah, so I do know Nick.

Awesome, awesome friend and colleague doing great work.

And so some of my, especially the earlier stuff that I was involved with does revolve around police reform.

And that work mostly took, took the, the perspective of how we train law enforcement police officers.

So you know, I think, you know, a lot of people know that a lot of the training that law enforcement get is in like weapons training, which is understandable, right?

You have, you have a job where it can be dangerous.

And so knowing how to use your firearm, how to use your, your taser, how to use your pepper spray, your, your baton, whatever it is, right?

That, that's important.

But the training that you get in terms of like in just interacting with community members, that sort of de.

Escalation and we talk about a lot.

But I mean just that on a basic level like you're doing a job, you're probably encountering people that it's not their best day, whether it's giving them a traffic ticket or someone just stole something from them or their kid just got beat up, right?

Like you're not.

If you're a police officer and you're talking to somebody in the community, it's probably not like the best situation.

And of course, there's these other kind of things that the police and community members do, but, I mean, that's sort of the job.

But like, the amount of training, the hours you get on, just like, how do you connect with people, like, in that, in that way is so, so lacking.

So a lot of my early work and what I was looking at was kind of connecting just this concept of empathy with policing.

And I know a lot of times I talk to policing scholars and it's like, what do you want these cops to do?

Like, hold their hands and get around a fire and seeing Kumbaya and love each other?

And it's like, it's really not what it's about, you know, empathy on its basic levels.

Like, how do I put myself in someone else's shoes and see their humanity, right?

And just, you know, you don't have to love that person.

You don't have to think what they're doing is, is okay or whatever.

It's just like having some sort of understanding of other people's positions and, and why they do certain things.

And so kind of going back to that whole statistics and analyzing data, we did some surveys around this and sort of like, satisfaction with encounters with the police.

So again, by and large, probably not on their best day.

You're probably not going to say, hey, look, you know, I. I got a speeding ticket was the best day of my life, you know, but kind of understanding, like, what, what police can do to just increase perceptions of them being legitimate, that there's some justice in those procedures that they're doing.

And so really it just came down to, like, you know, you look at all these different factors and some of the, my.

The things were like, they listened to me, right?

Like, didn't have to agree with me, be my best friend.

They're like, yeah, like, I.

But, you know, they, they listened and they connected with me and they kind of understood where I was coming from.

And yeah, it's not even people that got tickets that said, like, oh, someone stole something from me and the cops are like, you're probably not going to get it back.

Like, I'll just be honest with you.

But making that human connection, people are like, yeah, okay, I'm pretty satisfied with the way everything went.

And so, yeah, it wasn't these big things.

And when we actually sat down with police departments, we're like, we did this survey and we looked at, like, what leads to, like, the most satisfaction, and it's like, it's just small things.

You don't have to do a whole lot.

And so we're talking about reform and police training.

You don't got to re.

In some ways, larger revamping needs to be done, but sort of on a smaller scale, there's really simple things that people can do.

Just show that empathy the least.

Like these better outcomes than otherwise you.

You'd have.

Right.

That's.

You know, I think that's something that's lacking in a lot of us and the community, period, I think is just that lack of empathy, but also that lack of connection to people.

Did you.

Did you find.

Were you able to talk to police officers or just police scholars when you were.

You were in this position?

And did you hear any feedback from them about what was expected of them?

Was it too much for them?

Or, you know, I hear you saying, like, the whole, what do you want them to do?

Sing Kumbaya?

Kind of like, methodology.

Was there something that, like, they did want to lean in and have a stronger connection with the community?

Yeah, yeah.

And so kind of answer the first part there.

Like, yeah, we did talk.

We had scholars, really.

There's only about two of us that were associated with the university on multiple of these projects.

But we'd meet with police leaders, police chiefs.

When I was in at Northeastern, we had what was called a police platform project looking.

That's when we did the bulk of those surveys.

And we had.

It was.

It was kind of a pilot, so we only had 7 of police departments, but it was everywhere, kind of on the eastern side of Massachusetts.

And at first we kind of were talking about this stuff, like police reform and things that you can do differently.

They were kind of like, well, you know, we've done it this way for so long.

Like, we don't.

We're not going to change everything and.

And we're not going to be satisfied, you know, like, satisfying everybody.

And when we actually, I. I remember when my.

The faculty mentor I worked with was like, we got to do this.

Basically what it was, a customer satisfaction survey.

It was like the survey of people that encountered the police.

What was their experience?

Like, this will tell us.

Maybe some things that are working well, some things that aren't.

And they were just like, community hates us.

No, it's gonna be terrible.

Like, it's gonna be a disaster.

But they were like, fine, let's find out what they say.

And actually, for the most part, it wasn't terrible.

You Know, they were.

So they thought everyone was going to be saying the most terrible things about them.

And some did.

Let's be, let's be fair.

But you know, again, if the police department was doing what they were supposed to be doing, which is some form of community policing where you engage with the community and you, you listen, you try to be fair and you tell them the, what's going to happen.

And, and you know, they had some okay results and outcomes from that.

And so once they started to see that, like, okay, maybe we're not as hated and maybe there are things, small things that we can do to, to help smooth over some things.

And, and of course, in this, in these surveys, there's, there's differences by race and ethnicity.

You know, white respondents were a lot more favorable than minority respondents, and for a variety of different reasons.

You know, older people were more satisfied than young kids because who's getting most of those interactions are probably young kids.

And so there's some differences by those demographics.

But, but again, I think it went back to that idea that there's things that, that law enforcement can do to really increase their legitimacy with the community.

And some of them are pretty small.

And so after that, I think they were okay.

I'm kind of on board with this.

And then what really made them on board was like, this can make your job easier.

Like, you know, you might get fewer complaints coming into the department.

And, you know, they're like, oh, well, now I'm listening.

You know, so there are things, anytime you say, hey, we could reduce your paperwork, we can reduce the complaints.

You know, that, that, that's kind of where you get the most bang for the buck.

But I, but I really do think that, you know, they were on board with the idea of, like, how do we, how can we do our job better and just make this easier for everybody?

In my role, working at a public library, I work for a municipal government.

I've been the director of a couple different public libraries in two suburbs of Rochester.

And so I, I occasionally or on a regular basis go to meetings where the police chiefs have been there.

And there is some intersection between, you know, what we do and what the police do.

It can be really like, low key.

Like, we've had the police department hand out bike helmets and talk about, like, bike safety.

And I think a lot of police departments would do outreach like that.

But there was an accident in the town that I work in.

I don't know, I want to say approximately about 10 or 12 years ago, where a kid was crossing the street and they got hit by a car and died.

And so traffic safety is really important in this town.

And the police have kind of stepped into that role because so many kids walk, you know, around.

The Coit is one of those towns that is.

Is pretty picturesque in some parts where, you know, it looks like your typical television neighborhood where the kids walk from school to the store and then back to their houses.

And it's just a throng of kids kind of going all different directions after school.

So we've had, like, kind of lower key, you know, interactions with police about that.

But we're also, you know, the public library.

Just tens of thousands of people come to us every.

Every year, and people come to us in many times a state of crisis.

They've just lost their job or they've lost their home, or they're going to lose their home.

You know, maybe they've lost their insurance.

And we can.

We're not social services.

Like, we.

We don't sign them up for welfare or unemployment or.

Or, you know, the Affordable Care act insurance plans, but we can get them started and we can refer them.

But we have a lot of people who come to us in a state of crisis.

And even though we're in an affluent suburb, we have people regularly who are homeless, living in their cars, getting to the library however they can because it's a warm, welcoming place.

But we also have.

With some of that, we also have issues where people come in and they're intoxicated and we have to get the police involved because they're physically threatening someone or on staff or another member of the public.

So I say all that because it's kind of a preface because, like, my view personally on police reform, I think is, like, a little more nuanced than what, like a typical person, you know, who came up through punk rock might, might be or might have.

You know, I do see that there are officers who want to make a genuine improvement in the community and recognize that there are, you know, disparities in the way, you know, different groups are treated based on ethnicity and race, and they.

And they want to move towards that.

So I'm not like a complete, you know, defund the police and have no law enforcement whatsoever.

But I also recognize that, like, the workplace culture of a lot of police departments is so toxic that it's made, you know, entire neighborhoods feel unsafe when engaging with what is frankly, one of the most accessible government agents you can have.

Like, there's not very many other people working for the government where you can just pick up a phone and call them and say, oh, there's an emergency, come, come over to my house.

And they're there, you know, in a certain amount of time.

So much so, you know, just, just to.

In summation, you know, my, my view is that it is more nuanced.

I'm not, you know, completely like, defund the police, but I also recognize that this current, you know, climate that we have in our nation is not really conducive to addressing some of these systemic problems where, you know, you have a diverse community and the police department is all largely or exclusively white.

You know, I've, I've worked in, in municipalities and seen local municipalities where, you know, 20% of the people living in the suburb are not white.

But you look at the folks working for the municipality, whether they're in law enforcement or whether they're in, you know, like a public works type role or even a professional role, like at a library.

Typically the workforce and especially the police departments don't mirror the, the racial and ethnic makeup of the communities that they're serving.

And I think that is one of the places where the problems can start.

Do the work.

Has the work that you've done kind of addressed anything like that?

Or are you, are you more like practical terms about, like, interacting with crime victims rather than changing kind of the perspectives and attitudes that law enforcement might have about, you know, different racial or ethnic demographics?

I think, yeah, I think there's two things that you mentioned there that are like, super important.

So I'll try to talk about both of them real quickly.

And the first one is sort of like this idea of like, representation.

And just, you know, what I, what I see is just a distrust on both sides, which is very circular and really harmful for communities.

And that's like, like you said, you know, you know, it's chicken or the egg.

But let's just say, you know, the, the community starts to distrust the police.

They feel like that there's over enforcement, that they're being harassed or something.

I've looked at a lot is that you're a victim of a crime and the cops don't take you seriously.

Well, it's this, this group again or this person again or this kind of person again with this issue, whatever, you know, I'm not going to do much about it.

So there's this distrust that even if I have something, I go to the police, they're not going to do anything about it to the point where it gets adversarial and, you know, like, I'm not going to cooperate with the police, they come in here, now they want something.

They want to know what I know about this person or this inc.

I'm not going to tell them anything that.

And then the police say, well, now I'm not going to go into that community because every time I go into that community, they're not telling me anything.

Or they get adversarial, they get in my face.

And then it.

Well, they get my.

Then it's back and forth like cops don't want to be there, the community don't want them there, but they kind of want them there because there's issues.

And, and so again, I think it goes back to this idea of, like, how do you truly build trust?

You know, how do you truly see officers and law enforcement as part of the community, which they are.

Like you said, they're.

They're the accessible people.

They're the visible people.

In a perfect world, we want our kids to go up to cops and, you know, and feel confident that they're safer when they're around and not less safe.

So, yeah, I think with that, some of my research has looked into that, again through that sort of idea of community collaboration.

And we kind of call action research, which is getting together, community members, law enforcement, whoever, researchers, to address these issues head on.

And I think you're right.

Like, you know, I work with police officers, I work with prosecutors, I work with prison wardens.

And so I have perspectives like that I have, you know, friends in law enforcement that I, that I know personally have saved people's lives and gotten children out of homes that were incredibly abusive.

So there's, there's, there's work that is important that they do.

But I also agree on the flip side, and I think a lot of law enforcement know and will say that there, there needs to be some reform, there needs to be something different done to establish that trust.

So.

Absolutely.

I think that you're, you're absolutely right there.

And I just wanted to.

Yeah, go, go ahead.

No, go ahead.

I got a little anecdote, but I want to hear.

Hear you finish your thought.

Yeah, just a second one.

Going back to the public libraries, I think that's, that was really insightful.

Obviously you work there, so you have those insights for sure.

But it is a place that the community can go.

And sometimes in a, like, rural areas where I'm at, it might be the place that someone has Internet.

Yeah.

So they go there, apply for jobs, they can write emails to people.

Right.

Or it's a warm place to go and read a book.

Yeah.

And so there's that, that point of contact.

One thing that's proven to be successful through a lot of empirical research is that victims, often in rural areas, where do they go?

Like, where do they start in terms of, like, if there's domestic violence in the household or there's abuse, they often have to drive 40, 50 miles to kind of get into the city.

And then what do you do?

Like, where do you go?

So actually, there's been some programs that have put some services in public libraries because it is like they're not going straight to the police department or they're not going straight.

You know, they're going somewhere where a lot of people go that are not having these issues.

So it's not suspicious.

It's.

It's just, I'm going here for whatever reason.

And so that's actually become a point of contact.

And again, it might be outside the scope of something that a lot of libraries do, but it has been extremely effective, especially in rural areas.

So mentioning, you know, services available in libraries, that I think is one of the greatest strengths that libraries presently have.

I was told by a former director of a workforce development nonprofit organization that operates in Rochester that they would have, like a resume writing class, or they would have a class where you could do mock interviews, and they would offer that class at their facility and they would not get great attendance, but then they would offer that same exact class at a public library, and it would be full to capacity.

And the woman surmised that the reason for that was.

The woman who was the director, she surmised that the reason for that was there was a stigma to going to this office that looks like a social services office and taking a class on how to get a job when you're unemployed.

But when you're at the library, the like kind of social construct of the library is people go here to learn new skills, people go here to ask questions.

People go here when they don't know, you know, the answer to something.

And it kind of destigmatized just showing up for a class to do a mock interview.

And I really, when she, she told a group of library directors this, and it really stuck with me.

And I've found that we've had a lot of success partnering with organizations like that, partnering with government departments that can sign people up for social services or like, you know, subsidized heating in the winter.

And when we put them in the library, I think it really makes it easier to get on board with that.

If you're kind of on the Fence, like, do I want to go down and wait in the line at the unemployment office?

Hell, no.

But if you're going to go to the library and check out some books and some movies at the same time, it just makes it so much easier.

So I'm thrilled that that's working well in rural Georgia, because I know a lot of times rural.

The libraries in rural communities are the only place where people can access the Internet.

And that's such a huge thing, too.

And this is not my interview, and I'm going on a little too long, but we found that, like, a lot of people have smartphones.

Like, even I've encountered even homeless people who have smartphones.

So they have some form of Internet access.

But what.

What I've seen anecdotally is that people have the smartphone, and that is their primary means of getting on the Internet.

They no longer have a laptop, or they never had a computer in their home.

But the smartphone was cheap enough on the, like, basic plan, you know, the Cricket Wireless or whatever, your pay as you go carrier, wherever you happen to be, you know, they can get on board with that.

But I've seen statistics, and it varies depending on the economy and the type of education a person has and the type of jobs they might be applying for.

But when a person is unemployed and they're applying for a job, more often than not, they have to apply for over 100 jobs before they get one offer.

And you're not going to do 100 applications on a four and a half inch screen.

Like, you need a computer to do that whether you have one or not.

And that's kind of where the library comes in.

And that's what we see a lot of day after day.

We help people apply for jobs.

And it's one of the best, most gratifying, you know, one of the most gratifying things.

I don't know if I've told the story on the podcast.

I sometimes don't share it because I feel like people won't think it's true.

But I once helped this woman day after day apply for jobs, and she had terrible computer skills.

And I really could have easily just blown her off and been like, hey, look, I helped you for like 25 minutes yesterday.

You used up all your time.

You got to figure this out on your own.

Like, people aren't supposed to do that, but sometimes they do.

Or sometimes, you know, a person who has needs that are as great as hers is reluctant to ask.

But I made it.

You know, I just love helping people apply for Jobs, because I know it can really radically alter someone's life.

And they will think of the library when they.

When they, you know, when they look back on their life and realize that that was a turning point that the library made possible.

So I helped her for, like, several weeks, maybe probably two weeks, almost every day.

Not great with computers.

But she was applying for a lot of daycare jobs, and she wound up just.

I don't know how, but I swear this is true.

She wound up getting a daycare job at a daycare facility that my kids went to.

And she was super patient, which was really important to me because both of my kids have ADHD and my oldest has autism.

And I.

It made me feel so good to know that, that this patient woman was interacting with my kids when I couldn't be with them because I'm out helping people apply for jobs.

And I really feel like, you know, her attitude towards my kids, especially my oldest with autism, probably helped, you know, them stay in that environment longer than they would have been able to.

Ultimately, my oldest wound up.

We wound up having to find a special needs daycare that could really meet all of his needs.

But I know she went the extra mile to help him in that, you know, in that environment that was not really conducive for him.

And I had some role to play in helping her get there.

It was just a really weird, serendipitous experience where, like, your actions kind of come back to you in a good way.

I have a lot of experience with my poor choices coming back in a bad way.

But the last little thing, that's something you had said, kind of sparked a memory in me that I wanted to share, that I think helped informed my more nuanced view on police reform.

And that is when body cameras were starting to become more affordable, that smaller police departments could.

Could get them.

And you didn't necessarily need a big grant to get them or a big donation.

You know, there was a lot of controversy around it, and I think there still is.

But my take, just from looking at social media, was that, like, police were totally resistant to body cameras.

And people like me were like, no, we want a law that says everyone has to wear a body camera.

And that's my.

My feeling like I. I feel more comfortable interacting with a police officer if I know it's being recorded.

But my assumption was that they didn't like that.

And through an interaction that I had with a police officer in a work environment, you know, we kind of got to having a conversation about it, and he was Saying, oh, like, I'm excited, I'm happy that these camp, we're going to get these cameras.

Because he felt that if he was recording his interactions, people would be less likely to throw him under the bus or say, oh, yeah, he, he said some slur to me or he roughed me up when he put me in the car.

And I knew this person well enough that I thought that they were being straightforward and honest when, you know, they're talking about how they always try to conduct themselves with professionalism, even when a person is like spitting at them.

And so to know that there were like officers that were eager to use the cameras because it would establish like baseline facts about what happened during the interaction, if someone got arrested or, you know, they were investigating a crime or someone divulged something.

So it kind of started, you know, made me aware that there are people on the inside who might be receptive to some kinds of the change that I really want to see, you know, happen in policing.

So I'm sorry I went on so long.

This is, you know, this is your interview, but you really touched on a lot of things that, you know, I've had some personal experiences with and have been valuable to me because they've kind of changed my perspective on, you know, what might actually be possible.

Yeah, well, Greg, the first one, I mean, helping that woman out, you know, with getting a job, I mean that, that's obviously like a very straightforward, like, wow, I, I did something good and that something else could happen.

But how many times have you done that?

You just, you don't know it.

Oh, I know, I know.

You know what I'm saying?

So, I mean, it's one of those things where it's like, wow, like the one case proof of concept you have is this great thing.

But that probably happens all the time.

And I, and I try to tell people too, like sometimes you do something really small and you don't think, and not saying that that was small, I'm just saying like anything you kind of do something like that, like the potential is, is really, really great.

There's empathetic, that empathy that you were talking about earlier, Chad, you know, like just existing and, and having that connection within a community, if you are a police officer will go further than they realize and like you said, make their job easier.

Yeah, and teachers too, like, sometimes, like, they say one thing and they're like, oh, that was kind of nothing.

That was just something I was saying and it was encouraging to that student.

It was like, oh, I wouldn't have even continued on the program, or I would never have tried to get that internship or whatever it is, apply to that job.

Sometimes it's just these small things that just accumulate and it's kind of wild when you actually see it.

Yeah.

And you know, go ahead, Rory.

I was gonna, I was just gonna mention along with, and maybe you've seen this show up, Chad, but along with, especially in rural communities, like, where does the, the faith based initiatives play out in this programming and within these communities that you've seen?

Yeah, you know, faith based communities have always been pretty like in the forefront of a lot of criminal justice stuff.

They tend to be, they're.

If they're doing what they, they say they're doing, they, they're open and they're welcoming some of the.

There's something called the Boston Miracle that happened in the late 90s and it's what so like the mid-90s were, were kind of like terrible for all cities.

The crime rates were very high.

It was coming off sort of the crack epidemic that was in the 80s, sort of the solidifying of a lot of gang violence.

So there, there always has been some role, I think that's important for faith based organizations.

But you know, especially in the south, especially in rural communities where religion really is, plays a, a large part of, of a lot of people times.

But also like the community aspect, it really is a, a community institution.

So yeah, it's huge.

One thing that I've seen in the Southeast in the last, like I said, I've been here for 13 years now, so a little time, but, but I've seen a change in that A lot of people are, were moving away from the more traditional religions or, or they've, they were part of a church that wasn't accepting of them or they had the perspective that they were not accepting of them.

And some of their issues, you know, minoritized individuals, whether it be sexual minorities, racial, ethnic minorities, a lot of people from the LGBTQ community.

And so there's been an uptick, I think, in a lot of these communities with United Methodist churches that have been a lot more accepting of, of a wide range of audiences and in terms of delinquency crime, I've seen those organizations step up hugely to support these individuals who, again, coming from a victimological background, tend to be exposed to violence as, as victims of crime, whether that be, you know, hate crimes or bullying.

And I think that having that support system from the religious community particularly so these, these, I won't say new way, these newer communities has been very beneficial for those individuals.

I want to pivot just a little bit and talk, you know, because I think a lot of my understanding, Chad, is a lot of the work you're doing is focused on like municipal police departments at the local level.

You know, like these are people who live, if not in the municipality, that they work in the vicinity of.

It is that, that's, that's kind of your background, you're looking more like at that level of policing?

Yeah, absolutely.

So, you know, some scholars focus more broadly, sort of like nationally or you know, federal and so.

Yeah, absolutely.

Mine's, mine's always been sort of more local, local.

And that's the level obviously I'm working at, at a library and, and I, and I see, you know, I see the day to day and of a lot of different departments within a municipal government.

But I kind of wanted to pivot and just talk a.

Going on nationally with, with ice because that, you know, it's, this is obviously like a very frightening situation.

You know, I've had a lot of conversations with people that, you know, the ICE is kind of like a present day version of like the SA, like in, in Germany in the 30s.

You know, they, they have the trappings of law enforcement, but they don't have the trainings.

They have the look of, of militarized law enforcement.

But it seems that, you know, the larger issue is the workplace culture and the lack of training.

And it just, it's, it, it's, you know, it's frightening on one level because, you know, like people can get arrested, people can get shot.

You can be a resident, a citizen, you can be here legally.

And it just seems like they're casting such a wide net that anyone is a potential target if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time.

But it seems like it's complicated the issues for local police departments.

It's complicated the relationship that a lot of people, you know, that have been marginalized by society have with their local police departments.

And it doesn't, it doesn't seem like there's a degree of professionalism like what you're talking about on the local level with the, the police officer whose career has been, you know, working in law enforcement and they've had, you know, consistent training.

So I guess what, I'm just curious to see like what here, what your perspective is on how this is impacting community Relationships with police departments.

I mean, my, my assumption is it's almost universally, universally negative.

And then what, like, how do we move forward?

What needs to be done from like a policy, government perspective to kind of put some constraints on this and start bringing a sense of normalcy to, you know, the way that law enforcement or federal agents kind of conduct themselves?

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, that's a hugely important question.

Certainly one that would take a long time to get through all the issues.

But, but I think, really, Greg, I think you nailed it though.

Like, so, you know, ICE is a federal organization, so their jurisdictions at the federal level, but they're doing their work in local municipalities, which creates a whole lot of problems.

So while federal has quote, unquote jurisdiction over the United States, they're still beholden by local laws and in local jurisdictions as well.

So just muddies that immensely.

And I think what you're seeing, and if you talk to a lot of law enforcement, local law enforcement, they say kind of exactly what you said, which is that we've, you know, and again, these, these are taking a lot of these, the, the, you know, the actions and the protests are taking part in, in, in urban areas where there, there has been a distrust, but there's been a, an effort to, to build up again that legitimacy and that, that respect and that trust between community and law enforcement.

Kind of what we call co production.

Like, if you want to reduce crime, like, you can't do it just with citizens, you can't do it just with police.

You need co production, you need people to come together.

And, and this is, you know, I, the research with my researcher hat on hasn't been done on this particular incident, but we do have a lot of data on these types of things where larger agencies, individuals, organizations coming in to local communities.

And it just really has such a negative impact on trust and legitimacy.

And people aren't going to follow the law unless they feel like that law is legitimate and that is carried out with procedural justice.

Like, you know, most of us agree what's illegal and should be.

You know, there's some discrepancy like should, should weed be legal, but you know, robbery, murder, we agree on these things.

Right?

And so, but we expect our law enforcement as representatives of the, or federal local governments to carry out their mandates with, with legitimacy, with fairness, with the, the ultimate goal of justice.

And I think what we're seeing now is just, you know, it's really a violation of those core principles of what law enforcement is.

And that's not even getting into whether or not we need secure borders or whether we not individual here illegally.

Like, you know, we can, we can vary in that in varying degrees.

But I think if you look at where we're at now, I think people would be hard pressed to say that we're not in an area now where there's just this gross negligence and some of those core ideas that are supposed to be embedded within our criminal justice system.

To me, I think the biggest violation is it really seems that they can arrest people on the suspicion that they are here illegally, detain them, and even deport them without having like a, a day in court.

No.

Due process.

Yes.

And so, like, how do you even really know that someone's here illegally if you haven't gone through the process of like, collecting the evidence, presenting the evidence to a judge in a courtroom, and having some kind of impartial, or at least in theory, impartial hearing?

And I think that's what kind of scares me the most.

Long term, just because it, like you, at least any other crime you commit, you get your day in court, even if you can't afford representation or you can't afford the best representation, you at least have a chance to do that to, to present your case.

I also like, and I don't, you know, I don't necessarily mean to get into the, you know, the nuts and bolts or the, the nuance of it, but like, I saw a statistic like 70 of the people that they've detained who are here illegally have no criminal record.

And it just, it breaks my heart because over the last 25 years, probably even more, there have been so many different attempts at providing people an opportunity who have basically lived here their whole life or have lived here for decades, or came here as infants and don't even know the country that they were born in.

It just breaks my heart that there are so many people who've established a life here, operate businesses here, contribute to their community like anyone else, and there was never a, a path for them to try to, you know, make it legal and to, to do it above board so that, you know, that combined with the lack of any sort of judicial oversight with people getting arrested and even deported, like, scares the crap out of me.

Like, long term.

Like, I think that will take decades to fix.

Just like I think the Supreme Court would take decades to fix, if it's even fixable.

Women's reproductive health, LGBTQ rights, you know, a lot of these things are going to take a really long time to fix.

But then my immediate concern is just like the total Lack of professionalism, the lack of training.

I saw something online, I'm assuming it's true because it seemed like it was from a semi legitimate source that they get 47 days of training if you join ICE.

And that was like symbolic because like Trump is the 47th president and it just seems like the WWE reality show version of what law enforcement is going to be because Trump is the reality show president, the WWE president, and the lack of professionalism, you know, is playing out in Minneapolis in a big way.

But the other day I had to take my kids to Home Depot to get some stuff.

And while I was there I was like, oh, holy, I hope ICE doesn't raid this place.

Because just a few days prior ICE had raided a Home Depot near where I work that I go to frequently.

And I was like, I don't know, like how they, the ICE would respond in an interaction where I got my kids, you know, they're, they're both adhd.

As I mentioned, one has autism.

I know autistic adults oftentimes can be, you know, unfairly treated by law enforcement because they just fundamentally don't understand what, what they're being asked to do or the circumst that they found themselves in.

And so they're not complying.

Not because they're like obstinate or trying to defy the law, trying to defy the officer's orders, but because they just fundamentally don't understand that they're being asked to do something.

So training, right?

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

And I. Interacting with the community, you have to be trained on how to interact with variety of different types of individuals.

And when I worked in the town of Gates, they had this extensive training program that the officers went through for interacting with people with autism.

And it started because there was this young man, he worked part time at the library, he had autism.

He was an autism advocate.

He's kind of all over social media in Rochester advocating for people with autism because he is a very loquacious public speaker and a lot of people with autism struggled to speak publicly or even in a one on one conversation.

But he had this gift and he really used it to advocate for people with autism.

He started like this club that meets every Friday where it's teens and young adults hanging out at the rec center playing video games.

But it's like intended for, for people with autism and it's got some extra supports.

But through kind of his advocacy, the police department had this, you know, much more extensive training on how to interact with folks who have autism, how to determine if someone has autism, if they're unable to tell you, and it made me, it makes me feel like a little bit better.

But I'm like terrified of my kid, you know, kid growing older and having an interaction with the police that go south because he just doesn't understand that he's being told to do something, you know, without a lot of advance notice.

So my short term concern is just the violence and the lack of professionalism and the lack, the lack of training.

But the long term, it seems like this is doing real damage.

And if it sets a precedent, local law enforcement, state level law enforcement, if they get as laxadaisical about due process as ISIS do is doing, we would be living in a, the police state then at that point.

Yeah, and just kind of a couple points there, you know, we already have a law enforcement agency that works with immigration, which is border patrol, which we have a lot, you know, that, that have, have received a little bit more training but sort of already has that mandate to, to look at border and immigration issues.

Having ice, which is a sworn, you know, law enforcement agency.

But again, the one that's mandate is very, very small and can very quickly become overextended, which I think is what we're seeing a lot of.

And kind of switching to my criminologist hat if you look at the research and, and I can, I can send this and anyone who's, who's interested in this area.

A colleague and friend of mine, Charles Kubern, has done extensive work on criminality in the immigrant communities.

So first generation immigrants, which a lot of these individuals are, particularly those that are not here that might have a non legal status, have much lower crime rates than the Native Americans.

I'm sorry, America, us Americans that have been here.

What's, what's interesting is that if you look at second and third generation, they start just becoming more American and becoming more violent over time.

Assimilated.

Yeah, assimilated.

And so yeah, when you're looking at actual crime rates by immigration status, immigrants have among the lowest levels for, for kind of obvious reasons.

Right.

They want to be here, they want to stay here, they want to have a steady job here, they want to provide for their families.

So getting in trouble would just be negating what, everything that they're trying to do here.

And so I mean that's one of the most consistent findings that we have and not a lot is very consistent but, but those crime rates are lower generally in those communities.

But again, what do we hear in the media is a sensational thing where Someone is illegal, and they've done something heinous, and then that.

That obviously just paints a picture that the research doesn't support.

So, Rory, if.

If it's all right, I wanted to hear a little bit about the general strike that occurred on Friday.

What was it, the 29th in January.

And you participated in that.

And I thought it was.

I thought it was really cool that so many local businesses in Rochester, you know, closed for a day to stand in solidarity with the people who were opposing ice.

How did you wind up getting involved in that and, like, kind of who led that local effort?

Or was that, like, a larger national effort that people just kind of signed on to?

Yeah, I mean, it was January 30th on that Friday.

So.

But, yeah, it was the general strike.

And from my understanding, the week before, the Friday before, it was led by a Somali group from college campus.

Like Minnesota.

I forget the college, but that was the group that started it.

And so we were just following their lead and what local Minnesotans did in Minnesota for that Friday, and then they called for it again on the 30th, and, you know, the tenant was simple.

And I brought it up to our manager and we talked about it.

And so the first thing for us personally was to connect with our team, make sure the folks that were working were okay with doing.

Doing what we were doing.

And a cat just jumped over Chad's shoulder, and Chad just said, they're very nonchalantly.

And that's why Rory's laughing during this very serious conversation.

Yeah.

All right, sorry.

So we.

So we connected.

I, you know, we connected with our team that was working that day, make sure that they were understanding what was happening, were they okay with what we were going to do?

And then we broadly explained it to our entire team, and everyone was on board.

We shared information about it.

We made sure that we could pay our team that day so they wouldn't be missing out on financially, what that day would bring for them, because hourly workers, it impacts their day.

That was important for me to cover that and make sure that that was taken care of.

And so, yeah, everyone on our team was just all for it.

They understood the ideas behind it, of wanting to stand in solidarity and be just.

Just understanding that, like, as a business, we care more about the communities around us than we do about profit.

You know, like, and that is something that we've been about since we opened the business.

It's been more about putting our energy into people and community.

And so standing on that tenet and that principle, like, you know, We've all voted, we've all, you know, protested.

We've all signed petitions, we've called our, you know, legislative folks like, where does it stop?

And, you know, if we need to do more, this was another action that we could do.

So we did it.

And there was no collective organization locally.

We just did it ourselves and put it out there.

And whatever happened, happened after that.

I didn't know of any other folks doing it at the time.

I didn't talk to anyone else.

It was just something that we did.

And I knew us as a business and our team was behind it.

That's all that mattered to me.

I think Ugly Duck was probably one of the most visible, prominent businesses that participated, but there were like dozens in Rochester and many businesses that I frequent and, and, and even some I, you know, was unaware of.

What was like the feedback from your customers.

To me, it looked like it was mostly positive with a handful of, you know, typical trolls that you might find in the YouTube comments section.

But what was your kind of, what was your take on the response from your customers and the public?

Yeah, I mean, response for us, for the folks that come into our shop, they get it already.

It's not something I think that they were surprised by.

So they know us and in the spirit of that, they trust us and they, and they are.

We're so behind us.

And then the general public from the, you know, the, the greater landscape was also super positive.

I mean, you're gonna have those trolls, you're gonna have those people calling you and leaving you messages and then leaving you one star reviews on Google that have never been to any anywhere close to your establishment.

They're going to comment on whatever news Facebook, what, you know, that's gonna happen.

I think if I was a younger, if we were in more of our infancy stages, I would have been a little bit more taking that personally.

But now that we're 10 years in, I'm just like, you know, they're out there.

You are never coming to our shop anyway.

Your, your comments mean nothing.

Like, you're still gonna do whatever you're gonna do.

We're not moving your needle, and that's okay.

But you heard of us now and we're in your brain now living.

Living rent free.

Exactly, exactly.

Somebody's head.

And, you know, that's what I, you know, you know, other business owners reached out to me and talked to me, and that's what I kind of just told them, like, hey, like, you're going to get pushback.

But these people are, they weren't coming to your business anyway.

It's okay, like do the thing that you think is best for you and your team.

That's the most important thing.

And, you know, I've said this in a couple comments on our social media, but I think if we didn't shut down and other businesses didn't shut down, it wouldn't have pushed other businesses that couldn't do that, which is totally fine, to then rally and give donations to mutual aid funds and other organizations that are doing really unnecessary work in our communities and in Minnesota right now that are really strapped.

So I think that's super important.

And it highlighted a lot of those organizations that have been doing the work to people that didn't know.

And, you know, that's.

That I think that's huge.

You know, with my wife working at the Legal Aid Society, like their team was so stoked that businesses were donating some of their sales to them.

So, like, internally, like, that was, that was something they were excited about and that they saw and, and so it has impact.

Yeah.

If I could, Rory, we talked about, you know, the, the libraries and stuff.

Coffee shops, I mean, are hugely important in terms of community, providing a safe space for people.

Again, kind of.

I'll plug the sort of like rural Georgia thing is that along with libraries, I mean, one thing we do have is coffee shops.

And there's, there's a couple here that have all sorts of different individuals, students, faculty, teachers, faith based organizations.

And where do they meet?

They meet there.

It's a nice, comfortable spot.

And I was going to say that earlier too, Greg, about libraries and Rory, certainly for, for coffee shops, it's, you know, a lot of this stuff is pretty anxiety provoking.

And these spaces provide, I think, that like, comfortable location to connect people and to promote things going on in the community.

And so for both of you, I mean, that's, that's something that I think goes beyond what you probably think in terms of providing that community.

Oh, I mean, that's for me, and I've talked about this before, it's like from skateboarding to punk and hardcore to coffee, it's like always been about the people and it's always been the extension of that.

Right.

So.

And that's so important because these spaces are living, breathing things and we can basically set the table and we can, we can say we started it or have ownership over it, but in reality it's not ours anymore.

Once we open those doors, we have to move within the landscape of the folks that are coming in and support them and Serve them.

And that's huge.

And it's important.

Obviously, we have an identity.

And that's, for me, when you said empathy, that's huge.

At our shop, people, for us, see coffee as this huge, snooty, kind of highbrow thing.

There was a whole movement, and ours is like, you only know what you know, and we're not going to, you know, talk about the terroir and all of this stuff.

If you don't want to hear that, like, that's okay.

Like, if you're here just to meet your friend and connect, that's great.

You know, we want that.

And I think the important thing, too, is during these times, especially at places that are third places that, you know, many people come into, is we're receiving and giving our energy.

Right?

So, like, people that are coming in stressed because of the world, people that are coming in excited because they got a good grade on something or whatever, we're celebrating, and we're.

We're navigating these times and navigating ourselves through it all, too.

So I think that's the beautiful thing about the spaces that we live in and have, because those are true community spaces, and.

And they're shared spaces, which is.

Which is amazing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The.

The commonality between the coffee shop and the library being kind of like two of the last third places.

And I.

We've talked about the concept of third places a handful of times on the podcast, but it's.

It's kind of this place other than work or home, where you can go and exist and have relationships and have new experiences.

And I think what I like about kind of our role in the library, that's similar to what Rory said, you know, once you open the doors, it's not.

It's not yours anymore.

And I, like, totally get what you mean by that, or at least I. I have an understanding of that as it.

As I experience it in the library, which is.

There have been times where they're like, oh, the library introduced this great new service.

Wow.

They're, like, so innovative.

Or this, you know, they got it.

They got an ASL story time.

This is really cool.

But the reality is, like, we didn't.

We thought of the solution to that, but it exists because there was a problem that needed to be solved that we noticed or that people brought to our attention.

And so in that way, I don't even really think of it as, like, mine anymore.

It's.

I was just giving something what they needed with the resources that I had.

And my job is to give out these resources or provide these services to people who need them.

So I totally get that.

But what I love about, you know, the library, coffee shops, third spaces is they are kind of inherently similar to, like, punk in that it's unstructured.

You're gonna go and have an authentic human experience.

It could be good, it could be bad.

People are suffering.

You could make a connection that changes your life.

And it's one of the few places where you can go and encounter people and have an interaction with them that you don't know how it's going to end at the start.

Because so much of, like, what I do in, like, work meetings or with my kids or family is I'm just kind of going through it like, we know how this is going to end, but we got to do it.

Whereas, like, at the library, at punk shows, you know, when I'm just meeting people in places like coffee shops or at shows or at the library, I don't know.

Like, I don't know.

I'm open to the new experience.

I'm open to, you know, having.

Having an interaction with someone that doesn't go according to some sort of social script.

And I love that about our place, you know, our two third places.

And if we're the last third place on earth, I'll.

I'll be proud to.

I'll be proud to do that.

I love that.

So, like, even speaking on that, like, Chad, have you ever bumped into a fellow like.

Like someone coming in.

Into your field or even, like, interviewing people outside of your field from, like, hardcore and punk?

Like, what has that been like?

Yeah, yeah.

So actually kind of to.

To link it to.

To Cult Body a little bit.

As one of the people that I worked with, the education department, was.

We were at a meeting or something, and I don't know if I. I'm trying to think exactly what it was.

I think we had a mutual friend, but I started talking about how much I. I like punk and hardcore music.

My husband likes that kind of stuff too.

And you kind of never know what kind of music constitutes hardcore punk, whatever, but ended up meeting with them and immediately clicking, you know, very, very similar upbringings.

I'm like a super unc around here, man.

Like, I'm an old guy, so, like, everyone that I hang out is a lot younger, so I'm like, oh, yeah, dude.

Yeah, yeah.

I saw Buried alive in, like, 99 were like, like, I. I was even like.

But we.

So we.

We connected quite a bit.

And so.

And then actually one of the.

One of the people that I hired when I was the department chair.

Her partner plays drums.

And so actually we kind of made those.

Those connections a little bit.

To start Cult Body.

While he playing drums, me and.

Me and Cameron are playing guitar.

And then we just have kind of other people that we've.

We've met through various things that have been into punk or hardcore or metal.

And what's kind of interesting is that we don't have, like, you know, coming from Rochester, you know, which, you know, to this day is.

Is, I think, the best scene in the world.

I. I just so grateful to.

To grow up in that.

That climate and with that community, which we don't really have in Statesboro, Savannah, a little bit, you know, but.

But still not so much.

But over the last few years, they've been wanting to.

To get a scene back in southeast Georgia and just to kind of have a very small part in that has been awesome because, like you said, it's community.

It's.

It's having these individuals and with the band, you know, at our little text chains and stuff like that, supporting one another.

Yeah.

Finding ways to support the community and get people involved again.

That's something I know I've been missing, and it just feels pretty awesome.

Yeah.

I mean, I'm sorry.

No, no, go ahead, Rory.

I was gonna say I was listening to it, and it.

It had.

It has like, a little Rochester in there.

Like, it.

I could easily.

Easily see you all playing a show in Rochester and it totally making sense, you know what I mean?

From that era, just like, having that, like, almost like.

It has these, like, pretty ish parts.

But, like, it.

I don't want to say, like, I guess it's like new Screamo.

Like, it has that, like, vibe to it, but, like, for me, it's not necessarily that.

It's just like.

But it has that.

Those moments where I'm like.

I could see that fit in to this moment now.

But I was like.

It made me a little, like, nostalgic for, like, that, like, snapshot of, like, Rochester in that moment.

So it was really cool.

Yeah, I'm so glad you said that.

I agree.

And we're pretty different.

Said there's.

There's not a lot of people that are, like, into just.

Just.

I. I'll say punk music, you know, I think encapsulates most of these things, but, like, our drummer is a little bit more of, like, the classic punk rock kind of kid.

I might kind of bring in more of the metal aspect of things, and we have a cult pillar into, like, the Scrams.

That was kind of thing for me.

So, I mean, and then our bass player just sort of like, he's.

He's the most trained probably out of all of us.

He's.

He's doing his bachelor's degree in.

In music.

So, yeah, I just.

I had a whole bunch of things, and at first I'm like, I don't know, is this gonna work?

And then just after a while, I'm like, this is a lot of fun, and I think it's kind of cool.

And I think obviously, you know, always bringing in that roster influence in terms of that and just capitalizing on people's interests and strengths and.

And things of that sort.

Yeah, we'd love to play Rochester one of these days.

Yeah, we'll get you up here with Jade Dust and we'll have, like, a reunion.

Oh, yeah.

You guys did a.

Like a.

Like a short tour recently too, didn't you?

Yeah, so we went down and did four shows in Florida, so a lot.

A couple of our band mates are from the Destin area in Florida.

So we did Orlando and Tallahassee, and we had another location there.

Yeah, I already said Orlando.

My.

My geography is really terrible in Florida, but we played with Fortune Teller.

And so anyone that's interested, they.

They were awesome.

So Fortune Teller from Florida, we.

They did two shows with us.

And so it's always kind of fun.

Like, you guys know, like, when you kind of play a couple shows with the same same group and have.

So that shared experience was a lot of fun.

And so.

And actually our first kind of.

This will bring together punk rock and law enforcement is that.

Our first show ever was a house show at my house that got broken up by the cops.

And so, I mean, probably for a good reason, I think.

I guess we were pretty loud.

And I. I thought you're talking about the scene in the community, too.

Kind of brings all full circle.

Like, I thought, like, okay, there's gonna be like 10 people here.

I think there's probably about 50 or 60 people that showed up, which was awesome.

That was so awesome.

And I was so excited about, like, just, you know, younger kids, you know, 18, 19, 20.

And then you had some people that were like, you know, from all ages, you know.

Yeah, one of the old heads that was, you know, in his 60s.

And it was just.

It was a beautiful moment, to be honest with you.

Wish we could have.

We almost finished the set, but it did get broken up by the.

By the police and said, do you have A permit for this, which I absolutely did not.

We probably stopped.

We stopped at that point.

But it was kind, it was really cool to see.

Like wow, okay, there's, there is a scene here, you know, Statesboro, Savannah, kind of making area and so yeah, I'm really excited to see where this goes kind of moving forward.

So in, in that even Inception, I'm curious, like, how does the word get out?

Like how do you all like connect with that, those, those folks, that variety of people which, you know, Greg and I have talked about this before.

It's like.

And you probably recognize this now too.

Hardcore and punk in metal is, is the most diverse it's ever been age wise and, and everything else, which is amazing.

And super excited about that.

But how do you connect with those folks?

Like how did the word get out for that?

Yeah, I mean obviously social media is kind of like a big one and we had a.

So like Instagram kind of singing out like making those flyers because come on, flyers are awesome.

Yeah, I still have a bunch of old flyers so that I at some point have to get out there.

But like you know, sending it out, Instagram, Facebook and, and the older crowd probably a little bit more the Facebook outreach and then the younger kids are on.

I don't know.

So maybe there's some of the younger kids in the band actually do tick tock or something.

I don't know what they do.

Yeah, I'm not, I'm not doing tick tock.

End of the road for me is Instagram when that.

Yeah.

Platform collapses.

I'm done with social media.

Whatever else you do, that's fine.

But, but we also have that, that college community here.

Yeah, some physical flyers at coffee shops, at some of the other local businesses, organizations that allow us to do that is super helpful.

Get the word out.

And actually they, they started sort of like a couple people starting some booking and bringing an out of town bands and I'm like that's.

That's super cool.

Yeah, that's awesome that.

I loved it.

I love that.

Yeah, we have a coffee shop in Savannah called the Sentient Bean, which I think is an awesome name for a coffee place.

We played there and had some shows there.

They're awesome.

That's awesome.

I love that.

So I wanted to, I would, I would, I need to bring this up.

So Greg, I don't know, I don't know if you know this, but before streaming there was Chad Pawsek's house.

Chad's dad had the ultimate library of like movies.

So if he wanted, ever wanted to watch a movie.

He would just try to navigate somehow to borrow a movie from Chad.

So ahead of his time.

He was.

He was.

And he's still kind of doing that.

Wow.

Three huge towers in the back of the.

The family room.

And it was just filled with VHS tapes at the time.

And so, yeah, he was just like.

I remember one time going to your house and your dad was like, don't touch.

Don't touch the vcr.

Don't touch the tv.

He was gonna, like, record a movie off of, like, HBO or Showtime or something to like, archive it and have it.

And we're like, we weren't even going to go anywhere near the tv.

We were just going to hang out in the basement.

I could tell it was serious business.

I think he's smart, though, because my buddy, you know, I'm Sean Chud.

Yeah, he has a massive collection of, like, horror movies.

And his angle is like, I want these.

Society might collapse and I need something to do and I need something to watch.

And if the streaming services go down and these movies I, like, get pulled from the streaming services, where am I going to be?

So I know a handful of people and like, on some level, they're like, yeah, one of the things that's motivating me is there might be, like, some sort of societal collapse and at least I'll get to watch my movies.

While the rest of you suckers, like, who only have like three DVDs left.

I have the Lost box set and some Simpsons DVDs.

And a DVD or a Blu Ray of that movie Drive with Ryan Gosling.

So that's like all I'm going to.

Watch if the world collapsed.

We know.

Know where we can go see Drive.

Yeah, you can see Drive.

And I have Midnight in Paris on Blu Ray too.

Those are like, literally the only DVDs I own now.

I kept all my CDs.

I will never get rid of my physical music.

But movies, I. I don't know.

I'm gambling I'm taking that risk.

I'll have nothing to watch when the world ends.

And we don't have Internet anymore, so.

So my friend and friend of you guys, Tim Phillips of Cast Aside Fame.

We.

We both have quite a few vhs, a little bit at this point, but a lot of the old vintage games.

So any of the Nintendo say.

Oh, yeah, Any of that kind of stuff?

We have quite a bit.

So again, some.

Some more physical copies of that.

Not relying on the.

The streaming video games as well.

We just started loaning at the library.

We have a Pretty big video game collection.

But we started loaning a Nintendo Switch a couple years ago and that was very popular.

And then we started loaning vintage video games.

Like we got these, it's like a mini nes, it's a mini Super Nintendo, a mini SEGA that have like 60 or 70 games preloaded on them.

They have the controllers and everything.

We've been loaning those out.

They've been pretty popular.

And it's like super fun because my kids are at the right age where they're just getting into video games.

And some of those games are like a little bit more on their level.

Like Mario Kart Kart for Super NES is like a little bit easier.

Of course they've graduated.

Now we're playing Mario Kart 8 on, on the Switch and it's, it's a blast.

But yeah, those retro video games, like I, I, I have a feeling I'm gonna be like in a retirement home playing Legend of Zelda Link to the Past as like a, a 82 year old person.

You know, like people go back, you know, you, you read old books, you know, you read books at various points in time in your life.

Why not have that relationship with video games too?

Well, it's funny, I just read an article connecting the dots of like 90s video games.

Teaching your kids patience and resilience because of the ability not to be able to save everything, having to restart or only having a certain amount of lives.

So I was like, damn, this is interesting.

Well, and like my kids, because we're playing the Legend of Link's Awakening, which they remade for Switch.

And I had that on the Game Boy originally me.

And I'm like trying to explain to them like there wasn't an Internet if you didn't know how to beat this dungeon like that was it like you had.

Yeah, they had the 800 number, the 900 number you could call, which I was never allowed to do.

And then occasionally I do remember like begging my dad to take me to Barnes and Noble because I knew they had a guide on like whatever video game I was stuck at.

I wasn't gonna buy it.

I was just gonna sit through it, find what I needed and then go back home and beat the level.

I remember going to Wegmans as a young kid with my, my mom when she would go shopping and I wouldn't buy the magazines, but I would sit in the magazine aisle while she shopped and just read whatever video game articles were.

Yeah, I want to play the Bill Clinton Big Head mode in NBA Jam.

Oh yeah, sit Here, like, yeah, no idea.

That's exactly what I did too.

I love it.

That was one of the best games ever.

And still great console.

Might be really good at that game.

I don't know.

I haven't played it while, but I think I got like, really good at that one.

Yeah, it's Golden State warriors on that was my team right there.

Oh, there we go.

Yeah.

So I guess to start wrapping it up.

I want to thank you again, Chad, for being on.

This is a lot of fun to catch up with you and, and you know, I know as I mentioned, we haven't connected in a while, but I, you know, we've been following each other on social media, sending each other little messages which I don't really count as like having an authentic connection.

Yeah.

But super proud of the work you're doing, the education you pursued.

Like, I'm just like so, so grateful that there's someone out there fighting the good fight, advocating for victims, advocating for change in law enforcement that grew up in the same place that I grew up and listened to the same music and skated in all the same spots.

Like, super proud of what you did with all that in your life.

What are some like, concrete ways that people can get involved who want to help victims of crime or who want to help advocate for change in law enforcement at whatever level is accessible to them?

Well, yeah, just to kind of echo that.

You beat me to it.

You got.

Super proud of you guys, man.

Like I said, it's been a while to catch up and this has been great and hopefully we can keep this going.

The podcast is, is really freaking awesome.

I can't believe how many episodes you guys have now.

I don't know.

We're coming up, we're coming up on a year now.

We're coming up on a year.

I it up because like we have like 15 episodes, but a lot of those are like two parters, so.

Okay.

We really probably have more in the vicinity like 30 episodes.

And when you like do a two hour episode, it's just so hard to put it out there as 12 hour block it.

It just makes it a little bit more digestible to do two, two half, half parts.

Yeah.

But you guys are doing awesome work.

So one, one thing I, I would like to put out there is that there's an organization or I guess usually through an organization you can become what's called a casa.

So it's a court appointed special ad advocate casa, and that's somebody who stays with a child going through the court system when They've been maltreated by a parent.

We know that most child abuse and neglect is, is the perpetrators tend not to be in the home.

So which complicates the ability for that child to have somebody that's advocating on their best behalf as you're going through the court system.

And so CASAs are volunteers who make a commitment to be with that child throughout their court experience.

And having that mentorship and having somebody there is really invaluable for helping them just, just with all the issues that they're dealing with during that process.

So CASAs are very common.

I can assume there's one close in your local area, but that's just a great organization to become involved with.

And any sort of child advocacy organization that you might have, it might be through the district attorney's office or a nonprofit organization.

And so that's one thing I would really like to plug.

And then again, like I said, kind of get involved with the community, whatever that might, whatever your flavor is, Is it organizing an event at a coffee shop?

Like we have coffee.

Coffee with cops is what it's called.

So it's just law enforcement to come and have coffee and sit down with community members and talk about what's on your mind.

And it might be, I want a speed bump in, in my neighborhood, or it's, you know, there's someone selling drugs next door to me and you can just kind of sit down and develop those, those relationships.

So again, I cannot stress, as you guys know, that community aspect enough.

I mean, speaking on what you just said, being involved with neighborhoods and, or even like businesses, even if you're a renter, regardless of home ownership, you can go to your neighborhood associations or even form one and those officers will show up.

You know, like that is an important thing.

I think people don't realize if you want that information, you want that connection, that is something that people can do as well.

Yeah.

In law enforcement like to do that kind of stuff.

It's better than, you know, serving warrants or something or going to a domestic violence scene that, you know, something that kind of gets them out of the, the anxiety ridden parts of their job.

It really resonates.

And, and they're, and they're welcome to do that.

So.

Yeah, and be just getting involved in the community and learning and getting involved again, like I said, with, with organizations to work with survivors of violence victims, families particularly things like CASA that work directly with kids exposed to that type of violence.

And then just keeping yourself up to date with the research out there, like I said, that's my bread and butter.

That's what I do as a faculty member.

Not getting sort of inundated with the media and what's going on there on tv, and really just kind of digging into what's going on in the science of the industry hopefully is a little bit more objective than what we're getting a lot of times on social media or on tv.

Common Thread is co hosted by Greg Benoit and Rory Van Grohl, with creative support from Rob Antonucci.

Follow us on Instagram at commonthreadhxcpodcast.

For news and updates.

Contact us@commonthreadhxcpodcastmail.com Common Thread is a part of the Lunchadore podcast network.

Visit lunchadore.org for more information on other great podcasts.

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