Most people find online dating frustrating and difficult. What is it that makes normally nice people behave so badly?

Transcription

Welcome to honest talk about heartbreak, dating and relationships, relationships. The podcast helping you navigate your path to happy ever after with your host Rob McPhillips from Make Relationships Simple dot com. 

What I wanted to do, I don't know if we're going to be able to do this with this many people and in break out groups, but what I'd really like to do is break out by gender. For generalizations purposes, there's more than two genders, but for generalizations purposes, we're going to break it out into male, female, into groups to talk about your if you're dating your frustrations and if you're thinking of dating but wary of online dating, your fears about online dating.

I'm going to throw out some breakout rooms, and so what we're looking for, if one person in the group can act as a secretary and we want to get a list of the male fears and frustrations about online dating and the female. Fears and frustrations of online dating. So we're going to go for... OK, so can we have a spokesperson from the men's group, please?

Okay, James, great, right? I'm going to mute everyone else. OK, OK, great. So can you give us an understanding of what went on in the men's room?

Laughter. Yes, what happens in the men's room stays in the men's group. Yes. Men's room, first rule of men's room.

Yeah. So it was mostly frustration's rather than failures. So beginning with this A common one is that we felt that like online dating encourages a very sort of disposable mentality, like a sort of candy shop attitude as well, like easy to sort of pass on someone and then move on to the next person if there's any sign of any sort of perceived flaw. And some guys expressed that they felt some women had an expectation or perhaps even an entitled attitude that they because the numbers are on their side, that there's vastly more men, male suitors to females that day than they wanted to be charmed, to be impressed.

And like on a date, for some, there's an expectation that you pay. Another one was that profiles give off like a misleading perception or showing herself to be a certain way, but then when you try to interact with them or when you do interact with them, that they're not how they're portraying themselves to be.

OK, can we just get into that a little bit more?

Yes. Well, I didn't put that point myself. That was just not communicating. I don't know. You said that or what? Yeah. Why what?

So you're the spokesperson, so everyone knows it didn't come from you. Are you able to put it?

Or I would imagine from the gist of it, it sounded like perhaps they come across this like quite bubbly and lively in their profile. So you think, oh, I could talk to this person. And then when you start to talk to them or send them a message, you probably get very curt responses if that and it's just like one word replies you like. I thought you were like, I'm interested in, say, photography, and you are as well.

So surely that's a commonality is probably. But you're not really we're not really talking here. It can also be another thing I've heard men complain about, it's sometimes women put. Pictures that are quite sexually provocative and then are like, why are you talking? And men talk about that as being a frustration.

Oh, right, yeah, I can see that. Yeah. That maybe they put themselves that it looks like they're. For a bit of fun or something? Yes, sometimes there's a mismatch between the portrayal on the profile and then like in a conversation, sometimes men take it the wrong way and.

Oh, yeah, yeah. OK, so what else?

Sorry, I just want to rattle them off as quick as I can. Another one was. As a man that feels like even when there's a mutual match, it's up to you to sort of take the initiative to initiate the conversation. And if if a conversation sort of dies down a bit, it's up to you to send the first message again, to keep things keep the ball rolling. A frustration was that women certainly have a lot more choice and opportunity than men.

So you're competing against all your fellow brethren, you know, and with some apps or sites that definitely seems to be a pay to play or pay to win sort of option to sort of get ahead, like perhaps on I think somebody said, Bumble, if you if you're not sort of paying sort of boosts your profile because there's so many matches, you'll easily fall down to sort of the bottom of the stack. If you if you're not boosting yourself up there, see if you even if you mutual match it, that can sort of disappear.

I think that's common in Tinder as well. OK, yeah, yeah, so basically the problem is that dating apps are misleading and try to make you pay. Yeah, but the way that they make you pay is it tends to be free to women. And men have to pay to get accesstraveling, you know, send messages.

OK, another one with lazy profiles or very subtle ones, like I like travelling, eating out and the and watching film, but who doesn't. So and when there's always this thing like don't send boring messages like first messages. So when you try to look into their profile for something to start a conversation, there's not much to work with us.

I bet women I bet all the ladies on the call are kind of itching to be able to retaliate for that.

But we're going to get to I guess there's a reason. I want I want to go with men first and I want to get out. They said we're going to wrap it all up. So, yeah, this is a big one. So it'll be a woman with a picture and basically no text and then she'll say or say ten separate messages, her own reply.

Yeah, that's really cool.

Yeah, there's another frustration. It's like how many profiles of real or even current. Okay, so some of them like bots, some of them like even like prostitutes or just looking for like a marriage, someone to marry just to come over. I think that's perhaps more on the other side. The free site probably got plenty of fish or something. Yeah, it's something there's there's a whole network of a lot of dating sites, one actual company, and they're basically the same answer.

If you're on one, they put you on all and they do set up profiles. And there's thousands of of profiles that aren't actually real. But, you know, someone's been on and can't get rid of their profile.

Yeah. It's sort of held dormant just to make numbers. Yeah. And then I guess the only sort of final thing was for Thayer's. It's just so feared of the fear of being sort of scammed or taken for a ride, maybe like a out of money or like just even for free mail or something.

OK. Yeah, yeah. Yes. So basically it's the fear that they're not really interested in you. Yeah. But you're going to go out and you're going to like Internet bill, you're going to pay for that night out and then they're going to go home and someone else or whatever. Yeah. OK, right. Thank you for that, James. Was very brave. OK, OK.

Do we have a brave from the lady? A brave. Participant from the ladies group Chantel. So I'll start with the frustrations, I'm sure that sounds like there's going to be a big list.

It's a balance. So I think a sense of this, like a sense of urgency from, you know, from can we can we and I know this probably didn't come from you and we can assume it didn't come from you.

If anyone wants to add in the chat, you know, anything that you want to add, they're happy to admit to, then. Yes, to elaborate. So the urgency. In what sense?

So from the first conversations. Hello. How are you to see this like a rush to get on the phone in a rush to meet and then maybe a week later it could just come to an end. So it's like a kind of a rush of sense of urgency from then and then. The next one was a sudden rejection, which is just like after a week of fast pace, you know, moving it, something suddenly just comes to an end.

'And you're not really what I'm looking for' sort of statement or even ghosting ia another frustration as well. Where the person just disappears. But we we kind of I think when we was in the group, we talked about it a little bit and kind of came to an understanding of where I think we should be taking it and asking far too personal questions. We just just start talking to somebody like, you know, how much do you weigh? Things like that! Yeah really subtle.

Some say, boy, this is difficult and so it is rejection and abandonment, abandonment. Again, I guess I come down from the posting phase again that many of the men are married as well, whose identity we're not sure who's real, who's fishing, who's scamming, who's trying to manipulate women. And somebody else has a fear of not finding what she really wants. Yeah. And look. Does anyone want to comment on that now? Anyone? Just a me self, if you want to, it's sort of the male female around Iva.

You is some of that stuff is true to real life as well. Oh, I met somebody on POF years ago, they call it off. You don't show plenty of fish. Um, but she was already known to my friends and family anyway, so I already knew the person Reifler. I lay down the line. Yeah, one of a few issues was something somebody else was willing to spend more money on the. And and following up with one of the male comments was.

That person was willing to shower them with gifts and treat him to the level of pay, after all your drinks, I'll pay for your nights out. But I'm not saying it works both ways. I'm just saying and obviously this is personal to myself, but I think sometimes you can be the financial. OK. He says, you know, it could be the way it's why you say I'll devote two nights a week to say, well, I got this president so still I can treat to to the level I can see.

Five nights a week. And that's what they want. OK, so so in your personal experience, is that what she said or is that your interpretation? No, I know verbal, she told me it wasn't the only issue, but one point she said, this guy never lets me buy a drink. OK, is she still chatting to me and I've been saying it for a couple of years, but it was and it was getting very rocky and then I found out she was chatting to somebody else and one of the remarks was Elative and let's buy a drink.

He treats me, basically treats her like a princess and.

He told the nation that was one of. OK, does anyone want to comment on that or.

Yeah, I think I think a lot of experience of someone in a yeah, I feel like one woman said to me, are you the man?

You have to impress me.

So it kind of sounds like an obviously, you know, that's just this person that just kind of it sounded like there was a mentality or a mindset of like which is a bit traditional of life. So according to its traditional gender roles, you're the man. So you have to do certain things. And and I think also maybe there's something about some some women feeling, well, if it doesn't pay for the drinks and I don't feel valuable or if he doesn't come back like Prince Charming and do all this stuff and I don't feel valuable.

And maybe that's accentuated in the dating scene. So I think yeah, I think some people, I think is about a sense, having lost someone. I'm sorry. I'm really worried about being branded a horrible, sexist and generalizing terribly.

So this I'm just saying this is what we would have get to hear. What we've got a chance is that this I don't think any of us know each other in our everyday lives.

So we have the chance. So as men, we have the chance to hear what women really fear or what really their experiences. And and as women, we have you have the experience, the chance to see what men experience, because it's this difference of opinion and these feelings of like grievances and feeling like you're being taken advantage of that causes dating online dating to become a toxic environment.

So, Leslie, I think you had your help.

And yes, I would say that if the men are noticing that some women are asking to be paid for and I think it's really up to the men to think, do I want to be with someone who expects me to pay? And if you don't, then you should just say right from the very beginning, the boundaries is everything. I mean, I would never expect men.

I always get. But I'm on a good income and I can do that, but I think men need boundaries around what they are prepared to give and what and to receive, actually. I think there is layers underneath that, and I think that is. I think it was Ben said or was it that but I think it is about feeling valuable more than the money and there may be some examples of some women that who are like, yeah, I'm just going to go for the most money.

But I think it's that in the most part, I don't think that's the issue. I think some might throw it back in your face because they're trying to you know, there's already other problems and they're feeling angry.

OK, so I'm not sure was anyone else about to say something? Can I just say something?

Yes, I'm just kinda interesting article, but no, I'm taking notes all the time. But it's really interesting how the women have kind of gone to that next level of when they get into the relationship and the fear of that relationship. Whereas the guys are very it's like getting to that relationship from the guy's point of view and all the lying, the fake profiles. And, you know, we do live in that. I mean, I'm of an older, different generation to some, as we all are on this one, the whole women posing provocatively and giving off one image versus another just to get dates and stuff.

It's that sort of just not in my generation to be like that. But I can understand how difficult it is for guys to say this whole gangsta rap sort of thing going on, like they should be treated like princesses and everything. But it's just really interesting to see the difference in where women are coming from in terms of being emotionally hurt. Very quickly, we all went straight for the emotionally being hurt, being scammed and finding out that they married online and not understanding whether they're married, whether it's a completely different profile, all that kind of mistrust side of things.

It's very interesting.

OK, I think. Yeah, I think it is. And I think what you've really picked up, Jacki, is men and women have different problems in online dating for men, for men, it's brutal. At the start. It's like the rejection and the level that how hard it is to get a date for women. It's brutal later on because a woman can get a much easier than the man. But it's harder to get a man that she can trust in the relationship.

That's right. So, you know, there's different issues. And I think the frustrations and the fears relate to that. Okay.

So what I think might be useful is, does everyone know what the deal is?

Everyone knows what the frustrations of the agenda are. They got a fairly good idea from looking all both sexes, one for me to say at some point you want be the only person to talk to and the only person they're interested in at some point, that's what everybody wants. Do you find out at some point when you start getting interested in somebody you want, say you don't want to pay for drinks with other people, whether with the romance interest, that's for both females and males?

I don't want to hear that. Somebody says, oh, yeah, I went for drinks with somebody on Friday. What were you tonight? Well, it really is quite early because. That's a tough point. Yeah, I oh, that, as I can imagine, again, you don't want me going out for drinks with somebody tonight at some point, what do what do I know about there's going to be a second date.

Well, I'm not saying I'm a player. I'm just trying to say I can understand on the open side at some point. Well, I went to work. Some guy asked me how, but I've already got a date tonight. At what point did he say, I've got to say no to the other offer? OK, Laura has got something to say. Let me let me Laura, you need to arm yourself.

OK, so like the thing that really strikes me because I'm not like I've never done online dating, so it's really illuminating. But like, what's the difference between online dating, online dating and like video games? It's like too much of a game. And really, when you're talking about relationships, I always think I support authenticity.

You're looking for somebody real. You're looking for somebody to hang out with you, looking for somebody who interests you.

You can talk to and yet, like dating online seems to encourage game playing.

And that's that's what kind of worries me a bit.

It's not where the game that you can I can I really just echo that.

I really I really agree with you, Laura, very strongly. I feel like it's almost like you get into the mentality of, you know, women or men are competitors rather than potential people to relate to it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I this is why I wanted to do the split because. So you have an understanding of what's on the other side of the screen. You know, when you when you're chatting to people, you know, is this key conflict that creates that kind of environment where there is no trust, where there is people become disposable.

Rob, hiya.

I joined a little bit late, so I was part of the men's men's room.

But, you know, it's very good to hear, like, everybody's like the other side's frustration. But I don't know really how to use that because personally, like, my key frustration is like.

You know, I really craft my messages are we look at the profile and fire up the message and you spend time on it and I you know, I never get answers back and that, you know, after 20, 30 messages you send just like, you know, what the hell, I'm just leaving, you know, spending and and and I appreciate the frustration and, you know, finding people boring or whatever, but it seems like, well, what can I do or what have I got to do more?

How can I use this information?

I mean, I feel as as Jacqui said, this is like the problem is I don't get the data in the first place. I don't get a message in the first place. I don't know how to use these information really from the women's side.

OK, I just want to. Yeah. So we get into the frustrations so that we get an understanding. And then I'm going to wrap it up of how you can use that and what you can do.

So, Sergio, I you to yeah, it's a different time period, you're going to reply to all of us later and I'm trying to understand what, you know around other women were saying that about, you know, the reaction and and these sort of things. And I hope you don't take it personally. I think it's probably the case for many men that you need to do a lot of messaging, Scandal was saying before and to get a response.

So quite often you find yourself talking to three or four women the time and and, you know, things...