Episode Summary: This podcast centres on the environmental, ethical and economic implications of chocolate consumption, emphasizing the value of purchasing ethically sourced, "bean-to-bar" chocolate despite its higher cost.

In this podcast, Leekei, Jenn and Kristina delve into the environmental and social implications of chocolate production, highlighting the potential of cocoa trees to act as carbon sinks in the fight against climate change. 

They explore the concept of "bean-to-bar" chocolate, acknowledging the higher cost but emphasizing its benefits in terms of ethical sourcing, support for traditional growers, and contribution to biodiversity. 

They discuss the challenges in navigating the chocolate market, from understanding labels to finding brands that align with ethical and environmental values. 

The conversation underscores the need for increased consumer awareness and responsibility in making sustainable chocolate choices.

Resources shared:

What is the Harkin-Engel Protocol

Watch The Dark Side Of Chocolate

To find out more about Demeter standard 

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Don’t Take Our Word For It, Look It Up!

You can find out more on page 206 of the Carbon Almanac and on the website you can tap the footnotes link and type in 233

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Featuring Carbon Almanac Contributors Leekei Tang, Jenn Swanson and Kristina Horning

Leekei is a fashion business founder, a business coach, an international development expert and podcaster from Paris, France.  

From Langley in British Columbia, Canada, Jenn is a Minister, Coach, Writer and Community Connector, helping people help themselves.  

With a background in architecture, civil engineering and education, Kristina loves research, play and co-creating. Currently in Prague (that it is where she is originally from) and her base is US

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The CarbonSessions Podcast is produced and edited by Leekei Tang, Steve Heatherington and Rob Slater.

Hi, I'm Ima.

I live in Scotland.

Hi, I'm Jen and I'm from Canada.

Hi, I'm Aji and I'm from Nigeria.

Hello, I'm Leaky and I live in Paris.

Hey, I'm Rod.

I'm from Peru.

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Hi, I am leaky.

Hi, I am Jan.

Hi, I'm Christina.

Hi.

And today we are going to talk about chocolate.

Ooh, my favorite.

It's my favorite as well.

Uh, when Ola Benji suggested we talk about chocolate, I thought, wow, I need

to do some filled work, do some research.

So I went to the shop and got a couple chocolate balls, as you can see.

Oh, she's serious about her research.

Yes, I am.

Yeah.

Because I'm the type of person who eats chocolates, like all the time.

When I travel, I always have my chocolate with me because I, I think I eat

chocolate almost every day or , every other day because chocolate is healthy,

supposedly healthy, has a lot of iron.

I mean, it's what I, I like to believe, and actually it's what I've been told

because, um, I don't eat a love meat, so I think that I need to eat chocolate to.

You to balance out my need for iron.

That's my excuse.

I love, I love this reason.

I love this.

Okay, I'm gonna use this now.

Yeah.

But, um, there's an, there's an, there's a page on the Carbon Almanac

about chocolate and uh, which is called Chocolate and Climate.

It's very interesting.

Did you read it?

Yeah, I did read it when I, when I first, uh, got my copy and , there's been

issues around chocolate for, for years.

Um, big, big climate issues and, um, human rights issues, and it's, it's

a deep dive into this topic, huh?

Okay.

What do we, should we start with?

Well, let's start with climate.

Let's start with climate.

the good news is that cocoa trees are very good at sequestering,

sequestering carbon, isn't it?

Mm-hmm.

This is what I learned, um, on the carbon.

It's a very good, um, carbon sick.

It's really nice and.

We also have to watch out, so we don't plant the cocoa trees on deforested land.

So the old ancient trees also crest carbon.

So, uh, let's plant the cocoa trees somewhere where there are no trees

or small bushes so we don't take, uh, over the beautiful forest.

So people are tearing down beautiful forests to plant cocoa

trees, is that what you're saying?

Yeah.

And so I found out that between 2001 and 2014, more than 200,000

acre hectare were, uh, cleared and deforested in Kana and Ivo coast.

And they were replaced with cocoa trees.

Yeah.

Would've been nice to do it somewhere else.

I think one of the reason they need to plant more trees, cocoa trees to,

because it is demand for chocolate and uh, because of the heat that is has

increasing in this country and where the, the, the cocoa trees are grow.

Um, the yield has, has been lowered.

And, um, and in order to get the same amount of cocoa they need to plum more

trees because it's, this has become too hot , so it'd be wonderful to find places.

Were there small farms, growing cocoa trees organically and biodynamically to

get more out of the cocoa, more nutrients instead of by cocoa from the big farms?

, I found the part of the carbon almanac, which explains why

the, the yield has decreased is because the heat has increased.

And, um, there's more transpiration from the, from the trees and it causes

plants to release more moisture and therefore the yield has decreased.

, does it make sense?

Yeah, it does.

So the plants are stressed and they're, the trees are stressed

and they're not as happy and, uh, they're not producing as much fruit.

Oh, oh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I like it the way you are, you're saying it.

Yeah.

Yeah, because they're stressed and, uh , there's too much transpiration,

so therefore they're not happy, so they produce less fruits.

Yeah.

And there's, there's, um, the environmental impact and then there's

the, ]\ , human rights impact.

and before we jump into that, I was reading something also

about contamination Whoa.

Of, uh, chocolate.

And that there, because of the way it is, where it's grown, the way it's grown,

the way it's stored, um, it can pick up.

, uh, chemicals, some of which are naturally in the earth,

but, um, it can, it can pick up.

Um, and I think cadmium was the one that was , um, particularly

present in even, and especially dark chocolate because it's less processed.

Oh.

And, uh, I'm not sure that I, I'd, I wish I could, I had that article with me.

, But it, it was saying that , even good healthy, quote unquote healthy

chocolate, , might be susceptible to it.

, but you can find cadmium free chocolate, , uh, Consumer Reports magazine.

The consumer reports talked about it, that lead and cadmium

could be in your dark chocolate.

, That worries me because I, I love dark chocolates.

Yeah.

And it's not in, it's not in all of them, but it's in, um, this article

was talking about some of the common ones, , that are here in North America.

I don't know if they're all over the place, but it says people choose

dark chocolate in particular for its potential health benefits because

of course it has antioxidants and.

And as, as you say, iron, but there's a dark side to this quote

unquote healthier chocolate.

And it's, uh, ways to figure out how to reduce, , cadmium and

lead, , in these, and some of them , are the healthy bars too.

, and I'm not sure why, , Why they find it.

But I think it's, partly to do with the way that it's produced.

I wonder if the raw chocolate, because I think the raw chocolate

is also prevented and the beans are prevented and then processed with low

temperature was, so the vitamins and uh, minerals will stay in and not.

So I wonder if the farmer is producing cocoa for the raw chocolate, , because

they're more smaller and, , organic.

, if they also have problem with kemin, let, they'll be interesting to check it out.

You mean the forms of work, the people working on the

fields, working in the fields.

Chocolate, yeah.

To check out the, yeah.

If that's also the problem during the process and growing the cocoa.

Yeah.

It says, researchers found that co cacao plants take up cadmium from

the soil with metal accumulating in the cocoa beans as the trees grow.

And that's similar to how heavy metals contaminate other, some other foods.

Uh, but the lead gets into it after the beans are harvested.

, so it's lead filled dust and dirt, um, because the ground

is heavily accumulating it.

So it's the manufacturing practices for the, um, for the lead part, but

it's the actual growing it in the soil.

With the cadmium, which is interesting.

and it says the older the trees are, the more cadmium there is.

So often they'll rip out the trees and put in new trees, which

is also, that's carbon an issue.

Yeah.

. Yeah.

So it's delicious leaky, and it's yummy, but it might be in small doses.

Do you mean I need, I should stop eating chocolate every day?

I'm not saying anything like that, but No, but that, that's really worries me.

I really need to find out how you, how much, what, what's the truth

is behind that because, um, I don't know, , maybe we can absorb some.

Level, but not too much.

So I don't know how much we can, I can tolerate.

Yeah.

And, and this article, um, this particular article, I had read this in

a different magazine, but this consumer reports one has lists ones that have

less cadmium and lead than others.

, and just because it says organic doesn't, doesn't say anything about that.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

Shall we talk about the other problem of chocolate?

Sure.

Okay.

Um, I don't even know how to start.

I had, um, I had a conversation with, um, bin two bar chocolate maker and,

uh, I was in shock when he explained to me the problem of big brands, , big

chocolate brands, uh, that are.

Uh, brands like, you know, chocolates you can find in supermarkets,

uh, from Nestle, uh, Manez, Herk.

Those, those brands get the sourcing from Ghana and a coast where the working

conditions in the fields are near slavery.

People work in very, very, very poor condition.

They have very low salaries and it's.

It's very difficult for them to, to escape from this new

slavery, uh, work conditions.

, and , to make things worse, it's a known fact.

Uh, there's, um, there's something that is called, , I don't know if you heard

about it, which is called, um, hang on.

I just need to find the multiple, um, which is called.

Which is called the Hawking Angle protocol.

Have you heard about this before?

It's a protocol to basically, uh, end child slavery , in,

um, in chocolate farming.

And it's a protocol that has been signed by the manufacturers, the,

uh, , the manufacturers, the farmers, and um, every representative in the.

Of the industry has been signed in 2001, and the goal of this protocol is to end

child slavery, but it has never been applied, um, because it's just too hard.

So basically since 2001, everybody agreed that there's a problem , in

chocolate and um, and, , there's a protocol to, uh, to tackle the issue,

to solve the problem, but it's.

It's very difficult for the industry.

I mean, not difficult, I shouldn't say difficult, but for some reason

the industry is not able to change.

I, I think of it like the clothing industry.

Hmm.

You know, the garment industry.

Um, I think it takes an awful lot of voices talking about it for a long time

and calling particular companies to task.

Um, because there was, you know, child labor and horrid, horrid conditions

and people died in factories and, and, and all sorts of, uh, events

that happened that brought it to light, even though it had been going

on for years and years and years.

And, and it seems to be the same thing, but you know, when there's consumer demand

for this, , it's very difficult to get.

People to change their ways when for them it's working.

Yes.

And there, there's so much pressure on buying those cheap chocolates.

You know, this Christmas is, uh, this Easter and, uh, those, I shouldn't

say cheap, but, um, chocolate from supermarket, uh, I mean, it's very

difficult , to get away from it and to tell your children, no, we don't buy it.

We don't buy it because, uh, you know, their kids are enslaved because , of

you, you know, because of this.

That's so something horrible to say.

There was a, um, I saw it years ago cuz it came out in 2010.

There was a documentary called The Dark Side of Chocolate, and it was, uh, it was.

Very, very powerful.

Um, and it's translated into several languages and you can, you can

probably find it online, but uh, I think you can find it on YouTube, the

dark side of chocolate on YouTube.

Yeah, I definitely look it up because it's, uh, and um, and then they

updated, they've, they've updated, um, the commentary recently, but it,

I don't know that much has changed.

Since I had this conversation with this chocolate bin two bar chocolate

maker, um, I am now trying to avoid, um, uh, lowcost chocolate.

And so I'm, I eat a lot chocolate, so it's becoming quite a budget for me now.

, but uh, It requires some more work when you go shopping because you have to go to

special stores and really read the, find the, the right, um, the right brands and

the right type of chocolate and try to understand what's behind the label, behind

the, all, the la all the labels and, um, understand where the chocolate comes from.

Yeah.

There is another labeling, which I found out and wasn't

familiar with, uh, the di meter.

Biodynamic certification.

Ooh, interesting.

And it's, it's from, uh uh, it supports biodiversity in Ecuador, and

I think the company is Pari, which only purchases cocoa from traditional

cocoa growers, but they're talking about these hundred year old trees.

So I wonder, baby, their soil is okay.

Maybe it's hard when you're trying to navigate the climate

and, and the what's in stuff and then the human rights part of it.

To find something that you can feel good about consuming.

Yeah.

Well, actually, okay, this, this is my, this is one of the problem, uh,

and it's becoming worse and worse because now that I know more, , about

the climate and all this, you know how things are inter interlinked.

It's becoming very hard to shop and to to, to, yeah.

To shop and decide what we are going to for dinner.

But the bean for bar bean to bar is intriguing.

And , if that is the kind of of thing that you can trace back and

be relatively comfortable in knowing how it's made and who's making it,

then that might be a really good, a really good, um, place to start.

Yes.

Yes.

Um.

The price is much higher though than the traditional chocolate.

Sure.

When you think about it, you know, , oh, like three or 400 years ago when

chocolate appeared in, um, in the Royal Court in Europe, chocolate was

considered as some something like luxury.

And now it's so like, you know, everybody can get chocolate for.

For a very, very, very small amount of money.

And it's just something very bizarre, I think.

But Christina said something after, after went right before we turned on the, uh,

recording Christina, about the sugar.

Can you say that again?

Yeah, we were talking about Mexican chocolate and I got these little

cakes from Mexico, Mexican chocolate.

And when now, When you bite into it, it's kind of gritty.

And usually this grittiness, uh, feels, usually it's

connected to the chocolate bean.

Uh, but in these, uh, chocolate bars, cakes is connected, the sugar, because

they don't mix the sugar with the chocolate to be smooth, but they have

the smooth chocolate and granulin sugar.

So, uh, There, it feels really sweet if you don't keep chewing the chocolate bar.

And after a while, sugar disappears and it connects with

the bitterness of the chocolate.

It's almost the, uh, special experience and you have to take

time to experience the chocolate.

Where the very overworked chocolates, they're very smooth,

almost like chocolate Mose.

Where the sugar is very hidden and usually it's, instead of being granulated,

it's in shapes of some kind of syrups.

So the amount of sugar in grams are very different.

And so I was thinking, yeah, and uh, in old days, the chocolate was meant to be

eaten with salt and spicy peppers and.

As a special treat and it was not connected to sugar in the beginning,

which is really, uh, was interesting.

Would that be somewhat like eating a chocolate covered coffee bean?

Would it be that similar texture?

Oh, the texture of that, uh, Mexican chocolate bar?

Uh, no.

It would be more like if you would take, uh, grand related sugar and pour.

Mix little bit of chocolate in it and eat it then before the sugar disappears.

Okay.

Crunchy.

Yes.

It's crunchy.

It's yes, yes.

Yeah.

And it's, uh, and if it doesn't stay in mouth, the sugar doesn't disappear.

So the chocolate disappears faster and, uh, the sweetness

and bitter nets doesn't combine.

So the central experience is, it's different than eating, let's say,

some, uh, uh, chocolate truffles that have been really worked for a

long time with the heat, uh, that it's already pre chewed for us.

So, yeah.

But I maybe with all this, uh, climate changes and.

Things we have been talking about, um, it seems like would be nice for

us to slow down and before we buy chocolate, check out their website.

And a lot of these, uh, biodynamic and organic chocolates have websites

with pictures of the farm, with the names of the farmers, the size

of the farms on their website.

So just that taking a little time before we do quick shopping.

Just check it out on your phone and maybe, uh, choose the farmer instead

of the big company and chew more.

Yeah.

Actually, when you get outside of the, you know, of the network

of, uh, of supermarket, uh, and they use search for independent

chocolate makers, there are tons of.

Independent brands and yeah, you can look up on, look, the, look up on, on

the internet to look at the website, but also just buy them and, and try and try

it because, uh, Jen was saying that she had, uh, she has a, one of your favorite

brand of chocolate or you found a No.

You said that you found a chocolate friend, which has a, a

great label, but then you didn't like the taste of it, right?

Yeah.

Yeah, it's, it's fair trade.

It's organic, it's got all of those labels , and maybe it's because Christina, it's,

maybe it's because I'm not used to the texture, but it was not creamy smooth.

It was kind of grainy and chewy and I just, maybe I have to re.

I have to come at it with a different perspective and try it again.

There were a couple of of flavors.

One of them, um, had banana and like toffy in it, and that one would've been sweeter.

Um, but some of the other ones, it was just the dark chocolate with cherries

or dark chocolate with raspberries.

Um, and, and some of it was just, it was kind of grainy

and not, not what I'm used to.

And maybe it's just because I'm used to the, the, the cheaper chocolate,

the bad, you know, not, I don't wanna say bad, but the chocolate that's

full of like overly processed, right?

That has all sorts of stuff in it.

And I, I don't like grocery store chocolate bars myself because it's

full of wax, it's full of filler.

I have so many allergies.

I'm allergic to nuts.

I'm allergic to soy.

I'm allergic to gluten.

So there's a lot of stuff I just can't eat anyway.

And so I don't mind paying $10 for a chocolate bar if I know where it's from,

if it's well sourced, if I know that, you know, people aren't enslaved to make it.

Um, but, but I, I can't afford to do that very often.

It ends up being, but then, The other thing is we're having a, a birthday,

family birthday party here tonight.

And we, because of the food allergies that our family has, we have

purchased, uh, cake mixes to bake the cake because it's gluten free.

Uh, because the, and the person whose birthday it is, is vegan, so we can

make it with egg replacer and we can make it with, uh, fake butter.

We have lots of fake food, right.

Feeling better, um, which is highly processed and it only

happens on birthdays, but it happens to be a chocolate cake mix.

And even though we're paying $8 for the cake mix, which is ridiculous, uh,

cuz you need two, so it ends up being an expensive cake, you can bet that

the chocolate that's in it is not good chocolate in any sense of the word.

Good.

Because it's a big company that's putting out these, these materials.

That's the thing, you know, um, even if I'm very, uh, if I pay attention

to what I, what type of chocolate I buy, if I wanna buy food that contents

chocolate, whether it's, uh, at the bakery or, um, like a, , a cake mix.

it's really, I know it will be very difficult for me to find out

where the chocolate comes from.

Yeah.

Chocolate chips if you're baking.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And the COA powder, uh, how it is processed and where it's sourced.

And maybe there's only small percentage of, uh, organic biodynamic and maybe

there's some percentage of other.

Cocoa powder source from somewhere else.

So yeah, it's No, your farmer.

Yeah, but what can we do?

I love chocolate.

I love chocolate desserts.

So what can we do?

Don't panic.

Leaky do you?

Don't panic.

Well, I've been asking her out.

I mean, I've been trying to find out how I can get bare chocolates.

So what can I do really well?

The person you talked to being to Bar, did you try his

chocolate, um, or their chocolate?

No, because they don't sell to France and I'm in France, but they're other brands.

That's fine.

But I'm really talking about, you know, when I go to a restaurant or if I go to,

um, to a bakery because they'll love very good bakeries in, in France everywhere.

So, you know, how do I know that it's good?

Chocolates?

I don't know that you can know other than other than asking.

Asking the person who owns the bakery.

And you know what?

I think a lot of people don't know.

Yeah.

And so even, even having the conversation with the baker to say, you know, I'm

wondering where your chocolate comes from and do you know about this?

And I'm just curious and, and.

Economically, it may not be feasible for them to put really, really well

sourced chocolate into their baked goods, but maybe they put less

of it in, or maybe they decorate the top with it or something.

I don't know.

But I think it takes these conversations to at least make people aware.

Hmm.

Um, And to, to maybe even just think before they pop that grocery

store thing into their cart.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Just slow down.

Makes me think.

Slow down and, uh, maybe research before go going back to the store or going back

to talking to Baker where they sourcing things and maybe consume less chocolate.

Then,

you know, it's, uh, I have been thinking about.

The farmers, the small farmers, they're not getting huge amounts of money for

their chocolate for the cocoa bean.

So there, there has to be somewhere a glitch where the price goes up because

the small farmer is not being rich.

Uh, he's definitely not getting 90% of of the.

A price of the chocolate.

So there has to be somewhere the price has to go up and maybe connecting

the bakers and the farmers might be one solution instead of having the

third person between things to ponder.

Yeah, but we'll still eat good chocolate.

It's worth it.

Okay.

Thank you

thanks, leaky.

You'll find the right, you'll find the right chocolate.

I know.

It's out there.

It's there.

Thank you.

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