Today's conversation takes us deep into the heart of Iran, where our guest, Zolal Habibi, has dedicated over 25 years as an activist championing the rights of the voiceless. Her journey began with a personal tragedy—the loss of her father during the 1988 massacre, which ignited her lifelong mission to prevent others from enduring such suffering. As we delve into the complexities of women's empowerment and resistance under tyranny, Zolal shares her unique insights into the current uprising in Iran, marked by unprecedented bravery among the youth and women leading the charge for change. We explore the historical context of these protests, the regime's oppressive tactics, and the crucial role of the Iranian resistance in fostering hope amidst despair. Join us for a powerful and enlightening discussion as we uncover the stories of resilience and courage that define the Iranian struggle for freedom and dignity.

In this episode of Becoming Bridge Builders, Rev. Dr. Keith Haney engages in a profound conversation with Zolal Habibi, a dedicated activist and advocate for human rights in Iran. Zolal shares her personal journey, which began with the tragic loss of her father during the 1988 massacre, igniting her lifelong commitment to justice and women's empowerment. With over 25 years of activism, she offers invaluable insights into Iran's current socio-political climate, highlighting the ongoing struggles for freedom and the resilience of the Iranian people amid oppressive regimes. Zolal emphasizes the critical role of women in the resistance movement, showcasing how their leadership is pivotal in the fight against tyranny and misogyny.

Takeaways:

1. The podcast emphasizes that the voice of the Iranian people remains strong, despite facing extreme oppression and violence from their regime, showcasing their resilience and determination.
2. Zolal's personal journey from loss to activism illustrates the profound impact of personal tragedy on one's fight for justice, serving as a powerful call to action for others.
3. The episode highlights the critical role of women's empowerment in the Iranian resistance, pointing out that women are at the forefront of the struggle for freedom and equality in Iran.
4. Listeners are reminded that understanding the complexities of Iran's socio-political landscape is essential, as it challenges common misconceptions and fosters a deeper appreciation of its culture and history.
5. Zolal's insights into the ongoing uprisings reveal a pivotal moment in Iranian history, where economic despair has united various sectors of society in a collective demand for change.
6. The discussion on the Iranian regime's historical lessons underscores the importance of international support for the Iranian people's quest for democracy, emphasizing a strategy that avoids both war and appeasement.

Links referenced in this episode:

1. iranfreedom.org
2. action@iranfreedom.org
3. https://maryamrajavi4change.com/
4. https://www.linkedin.com/in/zolalhabibi/
5. https://www.ncr-iran.org/en/
6. https://www.becomingbridgebuilders.org/podcast

Mentioned in this episode:

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Welcome back to another episode of Becoming Bridge Builders, the show where we explore the stories of courageous voices who will work to bridge divides, heal communities and champion human dignity. Today's guest is someone whose life embodies courage, resilience and an unwavering commitment to justice.

With over 25 years of dedicated activism, Zola has become a fierce advocate for the voiceless inside Iran.

Through decades of work, she has built a profound and unique understanding of the women's empowerment, leadership under oppressive systems and the fight against tyranny and misogyny.

She's also a seasoned analyst for the Mid East Geopolitics, offering unmatched insights on Iran's internal climate, its resistance movements, its human rights record, the woman's movement, and the wider regional tensions, including Iran's terrorism apparatus, warmongering posture and nuclear ambitions. This is going to be a powerful, eye opening conversation with we welcome her to the podcast. How you doing today?

Good. And thank you for having me. I would like to greet everyone who's tuning in and watching this podcast today.

Thank you very much for giving us this opportunity.

Well, I think we're at a time where what you're dealing with and what's happening in Iran, I think the world would like to know and sometimes we don't always get the story. So I'm looking forward to getting an inside perspective on what's really happening over there. So looking forward to this conversation.

Happy to be of help and to be able to echo the voice of the people in Iran right now.

Great. I'm going to ask you my favorite question. What's the best piece of advice you've ever received?

The best piece of advice I ever received was from Mrs. Mahmoudjavi. She once told me to respect the decisions that I make.

Have that much self respect for yourself, to take seriously the decisions and the choices that you make. And that has really formed a lot of my decisions throughout the years and the fact that I've been able to stay steadfast in them.

That is something that always stays with me and I, I value it a great deal.

How did that tragedy shape Your identity and the path you've chosen to be an activist.

Well, the reality is that I came face to face with the situation that people were suffering under any run from early. From an early age. I met people who are victims of torture as, like when I was 4 or 5 years old.

And I always knew that, you know, we might be living in a democratic society here, but children my age in Iran are denied, like, the most basic rights that I take for granted and that people don't have the ability to be able to live safely in other parts of the world.

And so that became like a reality that I came face to face with, or first I understood it, but I came face to face with it after my father was killed. After my father was killed.

I remember the reality is that I knew I wasn't the only one who was suffering this because 30,000 people had been executed. I saw a lot of other children who had the same circumstances or even worse, like some who had lost both their parents or some who they were.

They spent time in prison when their parents were in prison, too. And so they had those memories or they were forced to even watch their parents be tortured as a method of psychological torture on their parents.

And so I always knew that I was the lucky one, that I never had to suffer any of that, even though I had lost my father. And. But it put everything into perspective.

I mean, I started to understand, I guess, a lot more than my age of how this world works and how, you know, what are the realities on. On the ground in life. But there's. There was always. I knew there were two ways I could approach the issue.

One was to feel like I was the victim and feel sorry for myself or no change, turn that into a source of energy to move forward and to do more and take on more responsibility.

Because I think that I've always considered myself to be very lucky, actually, because we have this opportunity and this chance to be able to be a part of something that's a lot bigger than ourselves or our lives and something that we have the chance to make a impact in history and change the, you know, the destiny of a nation. And I think that that's something that not everyone gets the chance to have that kind of a, you know, experience.

And so I think that if we're able to accomplish that, that's the greatest accomplishment I could ever wish for.

So I consider myself very lucky to be born in a time that such a path exists that I can follow and that I could dedicate my life to freedom of a nation.

Wow. That's powerful. From an early age, you learned a lot about leadership, about sacrifice, and about the price of speaking truth to power.

Tell us a little bit about what you learned in your work since the age of 18.

Well, I think that one of the things that I learned is to always, to always live looking forward, you know, in the long run, but always just imagine like today, if today is the last day, what are you going to do? So have that kind of a balance, to be able to push forward constantly.

But one of the most things, the things that I've learned most, I think is to learn from those who have gone this path before me and to use them as role models and to be able to follow their path and try to learn from their experiences. That has been very critical.

And also I think one of the things that has helped me throughout this process because it's, there's been a lot of ups and downs. We have been through turmoils that are unimaginable to many.

But what has always helped me persist and continue, first of all, it was having, you know, as I said, a moral compass to have people that I knew I could count on and, you know, follow. And also the motto that Mrs. Bajani always had is we can and we must.

So to understand that we always have the capability to overcome whatever obstacle we face, no matter how difficult it is. The only key is how much of a price are we willing to pay for it. And the reality is that every human being has abundance of possibilities to give.

The more you give, the more you sacrifice, the more you see that you have, you still have room to give in sacrifice. And it's a ever giving cycle. Right?

So I think that that is what has helped me a great deal and that's really shaped my path and the way that I've moved forward.

As an Iranian American, you live in, in two worlds. How has the dual experience shaped your understanding of both the internal struggles in Iran and also the international response to it?

Yeah, well, that has, that was always part of the whole issue. But I think that first of all, it gave me a wider perspective to be able to understand both sides of, you know, the issue.

Looking at, for instance, looking at the issue of Iran from an Iranian perspective, but also being able to look at it from an international perspective.

And that has really, it has allowed me to understand how maybe things need to be presented and how it needs to be worked for, but also to cherish and safeguard the, the rights that we have and have to really, I guess, know the value of what it is that we have and to be able to utilize that for those who don't have it. So I think that in this process, you also start to realize, like, the, the weight of each issue.

You know, sometimes we feel like we're drowning in like, the problems that we have or things that we're dealing with.

But when you compare it to someone on the others, you know, in a different country or in a different situation, you realize that, you know, it's really not that bad, but are going through right now, there's so many people who have it worse than this. Or it also helps you understand, like, hey, I don't have to give in to this. This is not, you know, I don't have to accept this outcome.

I can actually do something about it, and I can change that path. And I have that capability and that capacity to create change. So I think that's really, that's been important.

And I think that, I mean, with that understanding comes more responsibility. And I think that I've also been able to use that to be able to better echo the voice of the people inside of Iran.

Because even though, unfortunately, I've never been to Iran, I don't think there has been a day that I haven't thought about the plight of the Iranian people, especially these days. Right now we are on day 18 of the nationwide uprising. Geneva. Thousands and thousands have been killed.

50,000 people are, have been arrested just in the past few days in Iran. Many of them are in their teens, many of them in their, you know, early 20s.

And seeing all of that and knowing that right now the Internet has been shut off for days. They have no communication methods. They have no way to be able to voice their opinions or their, their demands or their, you know, their calls.

So that bring, like, for me, that's really important to be able to be their voice, send that message, message across and to be able to push forward for, you know, what it is that they're fighting for. Because I think what we're seeing on the ground right now in Iran, it's unprecedented.

This is a historic moment that we're in people who are standing in defiance despite the brutal crackdown. The Iranian regime has used crackdown like this in the past. They've never been able to break the will of the Iranian people.

The people of Iran have always come back again. And we see how the uprisings in Iran have evolved over the years.

With that, those protests ended for. For the time being. They resurfaced again later on. But for the time being, it was. That was the end of it.

But this time, despite the fact that the regime has cut off the Internet longer than last time, last time I think was about three days, despite the fact that the death toll is much higher, despite. Despite the fact that the arrest and the wounded and the situation is much more severe, but people are still standing in the streets.

What's interesting is that in the last two days, some phone lines have been connected so you could make calls from Iran to outside of Iran, but you can't make calls the other way. So you can't make calls to Iran, but they can make calls to you.

The calls are really short, like maybe one, two minutes for those people who get that chance to be able to make a call. The phone lines cut off afterwards because the regime is afraid that people are giving information about what is going on on the ground.

But the reality is that the one message that people try to give us, on one hand they try to explain, like, what they're seeing, what they're witnessing on the ground right now, but the other is they keep on sending this message, tell the world we're still standing. The protests haven't stopped. We're still going, continuing.

And I think that bravery and that resilience is a new phenomenon that we're seeing right now. And it is the. We see the effects and impact of the rebellious youth and the resistance units throughout Iran who are pushing this movement forward.

And we hope that it will lead to change. The Iranian people aren't naively understand that no one's going to hand us freedom in a silver platter, but we're willing to pay the price.

And that is the message coming from inside of Iran.

I wanted to get in, I wanted to get into this idea that you said that women's empowerment is central to defeating the tyranny. Can you tell us how women inside of Iran are leading and sustaining the movement for freedom?

Yes. What is interesting is the experience of the Iranian resistance in this regard. Then why the Iranian resistance?

Just to give a bit of a background for those who are tuning in might not know about what the different groups are and how it is. There is a National Council of Resistance of Iran, which is a parliament in exile, and it has about 500 members, 52% of which are women.

And the president elect of this council or the interim government for free Iran, is Also a woman. Her name is Mariam Rajavi. And the main, the, I guess the largest group that is part of this National Council of Resistance of Iran.

It's called the People's Mojahedeen Organization of Iran and. Or MEK for short in the US but they, they are the ones who have paid the gravest price.

Unfortunately, in these years with being the number one victim of the Iranian regime, over 120,000 people have been executed for just supporting this movement.

They have overcome a lot more obstacles than a man usually has to overcome to even join the movement in the first place because of, you know, the, the mindset in society of, you know, a woman joining a movement, a resistance movement, and, you know, the dangers and whatnot.

But also in prison, they were the ones who were really steadfast in face of severe torture and everything that they were dealing with, and especially since the Iranian regime is a misogynist regime and targeted women a lot more than men and was, you know, it really got under their skin to see that there are women who's standing in defiance. So that was present. But then they saw that in the leadership of the movement, you didn't see the presence of women.

And so the movement realized that this as a progressive movement, this was something that was unacceptable to them. So they decided to change their whole system.

And they said, we need to have women equally present in all the leadership roles because they really are paying the price and in the scene and they, they have a lot to bring to the table that is not being represented right now. And so the leadership of this movement became a co leadership. And Mr. Baja at that time was chosen as like the woman who was most capable to do this.

And so she created a whole movement around this, like taking the hands of every woman and telling them, you know, you have that potential to, to accomplish so much more and breaking the glass ceilings and pushing forward in every avenue imaginable. And now we see like a whole generation of women who are capable leaders in this resistance. And in fact, this resistance is mostly led by women.

For instance, the entire leadership council of the MEK right now are women. And then you see that resonate inside of your own, because this is. It has like a ripple effect.

You know, I remember, like, when I was growing up, I never thought that there were any limitations for women and what they can accomplish because in front of me, I had seen, you know, hundreds of women who had accomplished things that everyone thought was impossible. So even in school, in. In the U.S. i realized that, you know, I have this. You know, I don't have a lot of the glass ceilings that they have.

And that was interesting for me. And at first I didn't realize it because I was. I thought it was a given. I thought everyone was like this.

And then in dialogue and when I would speak to people, I'm like, of course a woman can do this. And they were like, no, they can't. I was like, yeah, they can. They can accomplish anything. Just put your mind to it.

You have the willpower and you can do it.

But for Iranians, it wasn't shocking at all. We're like, that's how Iranian women are.

But the reality is that because we've had this experience for 40 years now, and I think that we see that right now, even on the streets, the role of women, the fact that women are standing side by side with the men in this fight. And what's interesting, it's not. I think it's very important to highlight this. This movement, this resistance movement is a progressive movement.

But the reason they turn to women's empowerment isn't, like, from a, I guess, feminist mind point. It's in regards to their. The way they look at human beings as a whole. And they see it as a. Something that it's immense.

It's in the path of emancipation of both men and women. Because these shackles that this misogynist views create, or it's not only limiting women, but that mindset also has effect on men too.

So this is a new phenomenon for most. But once you see it in action, you see, like, there is so much hidden potential and everyone that they can use.

We always believe that, you know, you know, the magic formula e equals mc2. And that is the potential that we have. Maybe we're using, like, 2% of our potential right now and on daily basis.

But the reality is that a human being has so much willpower and the power to make decisions and stick by those decisions and. And move forward that we have yet to learn how to use it.

That's powerful. For the listeners who aren't fully aware of what the current turmoil is in Iran. I want to kind of walk us through kind of what's happening today.

I noticed that their nationwide protest began on December 28th when the currency collapsed.

And my understanding of it, you can always correct me if I'm wrong, is that this is the first time since the shah was kicked out back in the 70s where the monetary system is kind of turning against the mullahs as well, if I'm not mistaken. And they've kind of pulled out. So the currency inflation rate has kind of sparked some of this.

How is the regime attempting to maintain control with all of these crises happening around in Iran at one time?

Yeah, I think what sets this uprising aside from the previous ones is in fact the nature of started with, as you said, the economic crisis in Iran. The reality is that poverty has never been so high in Iran. The inflation rates, it has increased by 100% in the last year.

People don't have electricity for hours throughout the day. There's a water, water shortage issue right now. People don't have their basic freedoms.

So there's no, there's not one single aspect of life that you could touch that is not incomplete crisis right now in Iran. So people feel like they have nothing to lose. There's nothing to lose because the situation that they have is unbearable.

We have really witnessed the fall of our society due to the situation in Iran right now. And so it started with the strike from the bazaar. And the bazaar is like Iran's economy. It's like the backbone of Iran's economy.

So they, the bazaar has always played that role. And so when the bazaar started, the strikes about, I think it was on the second day the students joined in.

So it started bringing in other sectors of Iranian society. So it wasn't just limited to the bazaar. And then when that started growing, it started growing throughout the country.

And so right now all 31 provinces have been active in the uprising and is over 195 about 200 cities who have been involved in these protests so far. Today, as I mentioned, is day 18. And the reality is that the protests began with you know, the economic crisis.

But within the first few hours, the slogans were down with dictator, then down with Khamenei, and then down with the oppressor, be it the Shah or the mullahs. So the people were giving, like, this clear message that, okay, we want to move forward. We want to overthrow this regime.

We want to end to this system. It's not something that's reformable. It's not something that is changeable.

The regime can't give in right now in regards to some issue or loosen some kind of a rule to be able to pull itself out of this dilemma that it's facing. The only solution is the overthrow of the regime. But we also. They wanted to also send this message that we want to move forward.

So, because this is one of the things that is always raised on Iran, it seems like, well, you either have to, you know, live with this regime, or you have to go back to how it used to be during the Shah's time. While the people, everyone have a message, they're like, no, we don't have to choose between two dictatorships.

We can choose to move forward to, in the 21st century to have a democratic republic in Iran. And that has been key. That's one of the key messages.

So a secular democratic republic where people have the right to make their own decisions, have their basic rights granted, and to be able to have free and fair elections and have people's sovereignty, Right? So that is what they're demanding on the streets, and that is what they are calling for.

And for them, they, as I said, because of the experiences that we've had, people know that, you know, the regime is not going to fall overnight, and. And it's not going to be easy, and it's not going to. The regime is. Has learned its lessons from the Shah.

Actually, tomorrow marks the anniversary of the day that the Shah escaped Iran.

It'll stabilize your government because people won't have this hatred toward you. That's, that's what he thought. And so the minute the Shah stopped execution and torture, people started receiving that message.

And despite the fact that the SABAK was killing people in the streets, in the Eternal Guards, that's what they were called. It's like the equivalent to the IRGC now, the, the Shahad, the Eternal Guard.

And then instead of the current Ministry of Intelligence, they had the savak. So both systems still are intact.

So the people knew that the risk was if you go to a protest, you might be killed, but if you're arrested, there are no risks because there's no execution, there's no torture. So that broke the fear in society. And so that's why people came to the streets in the millions. Khomeini or the Khomeini now has learned that lesson.

So that's why they will never back off of execution and torture and killings. Last year we had the.

But they know that that is not out of strength that the regime is doing this. It's out of weakness that they have no way out.

The other, I think, important element here this time around is the fact that the Iranian regime has become very weak in the region. The Iranian regime, from day one, Khomeini, he, he stood on two legs, right?

One is suppression internally, and the other was the export of terrorism and fundamentalism.

Well, right now that leg of terrorism and fundamentalism has been cut off to a great extent with, you know, Hezbollah and everything that has happened in the past year, the fall of Bashar Assad, its current situation in the Middle east, and right now, it's standing only on one feet. Like before, they used to bring in a lot of the suppressive forces from these proxy groups. They are still doing that right now.

We had reports from Tehran that the regime has brought in 46,000 suppressive forces.

A few thousand of those suppressive forces are from proxy groups like Iraqis who are being brought in or has from the Hezbollah or from Hashra Shabi or other groups. So the regime is still utilizing them, but it's very limited in comparison to before.

So right now, the regimes tried to, they Thought that with cutting off the Internet, they can suppress the protest completely because people don't have any method of communication. It's not only the Internet was also phone lines that were cut off, so you couldn't even call anyone inside of Iran.

And then this bloodbath that it has started. We had reports from people who contacted us. Like, for instance, one person contacted us yesterday and said they lived in a small town.

They said, in our town alone, I saw 100 dead bodies right around me in the protest. And so, you know, it's very brutal, the things that are there, revealing. But it's also.

It's by one of the prisons, but bodies all over the place. And they tell the families to come and identify their children if their children are missing.

A lot of families don't know if their children have been killed or they've been arrested or if they're in hiding somewhere because they've been wounded, because they actually even went into hospitals and shot people who were wounded and had them killed. So one of the things that they're doing, they're broadcasting these things because they want to spread fear in society.

On the other hand, they're putting these screens, like LCD screens, and it shows one by one, the image of that person who's been killed. And so there's a whole bunch of people watching this in this hall to see if they see the image of their own child or their own, you know, loved ones.

And can you just imagine putting yourself in that position? Every picture that comes by, you think, is the next one going to be mine? And unfortunately, a lot of. We have a book. It's been.

It's the first volume of. It's the name and information of 20,000 people who've been killed by this regime. In it, there's a part.

It's a list of parents who died when they were informed that their children have been executed without any notice, without any reason, really. You know, and the regime is. You see, among the people who are being killed, they're like 14, 15 years old, and they've been killed.

And the regime wants to send a message that way to society that I see no mercy when it comes to executions. This regime has executed children, elderly parents, pregnant women.

Because we don't even know their names. Or every day there would be a list printed in Etellas and Khan newspapers of the people who had been executed the night before.

And families would just buy the newspaper to just see if they see the name of their loved ones. So with that, the regime was able to spread fear. So this time around, a lot of the families are like, yes, it's devastating. Yes, it's very painful.

But we know that they're trying to spread fear in society. And we're not giving in and we're not giving up.

We're going to continue, especially now, going to continue because we've already paid such a high price. We can't let it go in the middle. We need to make sure we push it till the end. And that is the message that's coming from inside of Iran.

But I also think that it's what set sets this uprising apart from the previous ones, is also the role of the resistance units inside of Iran. About for the last decade, a bit more than a decade, that Iranian resistance started a strategy forming resistance units inside of Iran.

So people who are local and they know, you know, they know their city, they know the people there forming small units together, groups of two, three, and then now some of them are like 20, 30, but coming together, organizing together.

It started with writing, like graffiti on the walls, doing a poster, raising awareness, raising hope, telling people not to give in, and keeping that flame of resistance alive. But right now, what they're doing is. And I mean, we've seen it evolved their activities, but they've been targeting centers of oppression.

They have been organizing on the streets. So this. This lived on in the, you know, conscious of this society. And so this time when the protest came about, everyone knew.

They're like, oh, we know what we're supposed to do.

And also these resistance units have been organizing people, recruiting people, putting people together, like groups, you know, trying to help one another. They keep on telling everyone, look, it's important. We need to be united. We need to be behind each other.

We need to support each other so they can't attack us. And so now they've gone on the offensive, and that's what we're seeing. They are disarming the suppressive forces. They're making them flee.

They are, you know, as I said, they're targeting centers of oppression. And they are able to, you know, organize on the ground and help people.

And they, you know, this is something that is, is really a new phenomenon and this is what is keeping things going. These rebellious youth. Really, everyone is saying Gen Z of Iran is really showing its power these days on the streets of Iran.

I'm curious. Most of us don't know much about the Iranian people themselves. We only know Iran from the reports about the leadership there.

What are we missing about the people on the ground in Iran that we may not know? Misunderstandings.

Well, I think one of the things is that it's very important to know. Iran has the highest brain drain in the world. Culturally. For Iranians, education is really important. So most of Iran's society are college educated.

They've grown up and, you know, the age of technology.

And so they, even though they're living under, in dictatorship, they know that that's not how the world goes and that's not how the situation in other parts of the world. So they have this understanding and they have this, I guess, lens toward the world and they understand, like, how, you know, how things are.

And so that also gives them more ambition to stand in defiance. Iranians use every single possibility as a way to stand in defiance against this regime. They see everything as a form of resistance.

Even helping one another is a form of resistance because the regime wants everyone to just think of themselves and just go into their own holes, being even, you know, being optimistic, that is a form of resistance.

The fact that like, for instance, over 60% of college students in Iran are women, that is because they see it as a form of resistance origin that doesn't allow women to study over 70 different majors or they're not allowed to even travel without the, the permission of a male guardian, be it their husband or father. Well, they stand and define some big. They pursue higher education and they try to move forward.

So I think that that is something that a lot of people don't know about Iran. And Iran is a, you know, our people are proud people. They have, they know that they have a rich history and a rich culture.

Unfortunately, everyone knows that the first human rights declaration comes from Iran. But our people are suffering under this regime this way, and they're denied their most basic human rights. And the people around know that.

And so that's why they know that they can be so much more and they have so much potential, this society. And so that's why they really yearn that change.

But I think what is most important is that despite having a brutal theocracy ruling Iran for 47 years, I don't think there's been a day that the Iranian people have succumbed to the power of the mullahs. And I think that's really important. And I think what.

What has been very helpful is the fact that we have a organized resistance movement that has been leading this fight continuously or throughout these 47 years without a day of stopping. And I think that's really important.

So we feel like we've finally reached that last chapter or that last final step. And so we hope that together with the help of the, you know, the people of Iran united, we can create that change.

One of the other things that I think is important to understand about the Iranian people is that the history that we've had, the Iranian people, as I said, they keep on saying that, look, there is a third option when it comes to Iran. And this was raised by Mrs. Rajavi in the European Parliament, not today, but 20 years ago, actually.

She stated that when it comes to Iran, the solution is neither war nor appeasement. It's the first supporting the Iranian people and their organized resistance to create change.

Unfortunately, the policy of appeasement toward the mullahs has come with a grave price for the Iranian people. Because the reality is we've been the bargaining chips at the table, especially the Iranian resistance in all these years.

But on the other hand, the Iranian people don't want troops on the ground. They don't want foreign intervention, because we have that experience in Iran.

If you look back, Reza Shah, he was brought in by the British, and then he was taken out. And then his son was brought in by the US and the, and, and the UK and he was taken out.

And then Khomeini was brought in by Western powers because at the time it was the Cold war, there was USSRs bordering Iran. They said, well, this is some clergyman that's against communism, so he might. He's probably our best bet.

Because the people who had created the revolution were progressive movements. And so they weren't really sure if it would be to the benefit of, you know, the foreign powers, especially since they wanted their independence.

You also have to remember that the only democratic government that Iran has had in the last segment century was Dr. Mosaddegh, who was overthrown in a coup d' etat by the CIA and MI6. So the Iranian people have that history and in the back of their minds.

So immediately when you talk about foreign intervention and because Iran is a rich country in natural resources, unfortunately, foreign interests have had a lot of, I guess, great role in how things work out. And so that's why the people keep on emphasizing that, you know, there's a third option. We're paying the price ourselves on the street.

We're not asking for anything, but we are asking for a firm policy on Iran. We are asking for the, like the EU and the UK to blacklist the irgc.

And we are asking for, for instance, right now, what is being perpetrated in Iran is both war crimes and crimes against humanity. Today as we are speaking, there's a UN Security Council meeting.

It is time to hold the Iranian regime accountable for these atrocities that are being committed and asked, like, shut down all of Iran's embassies. These are like basic steps that can be taken.

That sends that message to the Iranian regime that we're not going to just give words of condemnation and let you get away with things. And it also sends a message to the Iranian people that we do stand by you, we do hear you, we are with you.

And also, as I said before, I think toward the beginning, one of the main messages that we hear from the streets on the ground in Iran is that we want to move forward in the 21st century. We want a true democratic republic in Iran. Fortunately, there is a roadmap for that. The National Council of Resistance.

Everyone has a interim government plan. And what's important, it's not on just on paper.

People have seen it in practice throughout the last 40 years and the last four decades that these people, it's not just words, mere words. They actually have stood by their principles and their values. And you know, they see that moral values that have turned to politics for them.

And on the other hand, the ten point plan, like for instance, that Mrs. Rajavi has presented, everyone calls it like a, it's Jeffersonian blueprints, really a roadmap. But it calls for, you know, free elections.

It calls for, you know, basic rights being respected, freedom of speech, freedom of Religion, freedom of, you know, basic things that unfortunately the people of Iran are denied, but also the separation of religion and state, recognizing the rights of minorities or ethnic groups in Iran, the different ethnicities in Iran, having a independent judiciary, having equality of men and women, and like you know, doing something about Iran's environment because right now it's a catastrophe. It calls for a non nuclear Iran and it calls for equal opportunities in the work field for everyone and in free market society.

So I mean, if you go through all 10, it's really, even though it's only 10 points, it really covers a lot of things.

It calls for the abolition of the death penalty and executions and torture in Iran, which is really important in a free Iran because otherwise this cycle of revenge will never end. And also it's for at a time that some are right now unfortunately promoting the return of the Savak.

The Iranian people want to say, no, we want to end to all of this. We want to end to suppressing the people.

And so I think that this is one of the key takeaways and that's, I think why people are so determined to create change, even if it means at the price of their own lives, because they, they're, they have this assurance that we have that possibility to see a true democracy in Iran soon.

I love that. My understanding is the Iranian people have a strong Persian history and background.

How is that different than what we imagine the Iranian people to be today? Because I think we, we assume that, that that's not part of who they are.

But I'm just kind of curious, how does that play a role in the way that they think, live, breathe their culture?

As I said before, Iranians are a very proud nation. We do take a lot of pride in the fact that, I mean, it's one of the oldest civilizations.

Just look at its role in sciences, in literature, in culture. It has a very rich culture. It has a very. Iran is known for its hospitality.

The people are very warm, they're very loving, they're very caring and they have, you know, they have that backbone and that's something that they take pride in. Unfortunately, Iranians are not represented as they should be because of the current dictatorship ruling Iran.

But I remember back when we're in high school, people would joke around with like, well, when we say Persian people are like, oh, Persian rugs, culture, this food, everything. Then we say Iranian, they're like, oh, terrorists. I'm like, no, no, no, it's the same people don't do that. But that was unfortunately the take.

That's the impact of the crimes perpetrated by this regime. So the Iranian people, yes, they are, as I said, they have a very rich culture. And we hope that we will see the return of that.

And I think that Iran, we hope it'll take its rights, well, its rightful place in the international community as a source of a unifying source in the Middle east, as a someone who adds to stability and peace in the region and not be the number one sponsor of international terrorism. We want to see an end to that. And hopefully once we see freedom in Iran, we will see it flourish in the region too.

Because unfortunately, you just see if you look at all these points that Iran, Iran's meddling has made such a negative impact and has had taken such a toll on people in different countries. So we hope that we could put an end to that, all that misery and all that pain and to be able to move forward to a, you know, a true democracy.

You'Ve kind of touched it.

But I want to give you a chance to kind of paint for us a picture of what does it look like to have a free Iran and how do you see the international community helping Iran get to the point where there is a free Iran?

As I mentioned, I think that, I think that roadmap is there. It's with 10 point plan presented by Mr. Marjavi. For those who might be interested to read the whole thing.

You can find, if you search mahramhajavi 10 point plan, you will find it. But there's also the website of Mah Mahajavi, which is Mayam Dashavi.

Mayam is M A r y a m-r a j a v I.com or mariamajavorchange.com that you guys could take a look at. And her viewpoints are there.

But I think that that free Iran is Iran, where Iran belongs to its people and that we have people's sovereignty, that Iran that has a government that will only be serving its own people. And that's like the number one issue that we have. There are a lot of Iran.

There was actually conference about a few weeks before the uprising actually in Paris of prominent Iranian intellectuals and leading figures in the, you know, world of science and technology and whatnot. And it was such a beautiful conference.

And one of them said, you know, all of us have made a pledge that once Iran is free, the only thing that we want to go do is just go there and just serve our people. We don't want any wages, we don't want anything. We just want to be able to have that possibility to go and actually serve our people.

After all these years.

We see if you look at Every top Fortune 500 company or all the major, you know, if you look at NASA, you look at, you know, different departments, you see there, there are in the top, higher positions, you see Iranians.

So really just imagine a country where they can actually serve their own people and what Iran could be and how, what an impact it can make on the world. And also, as I said, Iranians are known for their hospitality. So just imagine what impact that can have on the world.

And we hope to be able to one day host everyone in a free Iran and to see that flourish. I think that it'll have. It'll play a very important geopolitical role because Iran has always had that positive and negative. That's the reality.

I mean, Once we had Dr. Mossaddegh as prime minister, we saw, and Iran's oil was nationalized, you saw the effect, the ripple effect in the region and from Egypt, from here, there, everywhere, you saw that effect. But unfortunately, when Khomeini came into power, we also saw the rise of Islamic fundamentalism in the region and the growth of that.

So I think we are in a position now that we can eliminate the, you know, the heart of that Islamic fundamentalism and we remove it. Because that's, I think, what has led to the suffering of people around the world.

It doesn't matter where you are or what religion you are or what your beliefs are. Unfortunately, it has affected so many lives. And so to see an end to all that destruction and all that hate, I think that's really important.

And hopefully we'll be able to present, you know, a true Iran, what it stands for. And also the people of the world will try and start to see a true Islam too.

Because what these people are, I mean, what this regime is doing has nothing to do with, with Iran or with religion. So it's neither a Muslim or neither Iranian really.

And that's something that we would like to clarify for everyone that please don't judge us by the mullahs. They don't represent the Iranian people or our history or our culture or anything. So we hope to see that day flourish.

And as I said, the good news is that there is alternative in the National Council of Resistance of Iran and under the leadership of Mrs. Maam Ajavi, which is something that I think that soon the world will be hearing more about.

And I think that there are a lot of lessons that many countries could actually utilize and hopefully use to move forward and for us to see more progress in the Internet, you know, the world as a whole. Awesome.

I'll ask my guest this question. What do you want your legacy to be?

Free Iran?

I mean, the fact that you can, if you, if you really believe and in what you want to achieve, you have the ability to do that, I think you just have to pay the price for it. So I think the greatest legacy for me is to be remembered as someone who I didn't want anything for myself in life.

I just wanted the freedom of the people that we run. And for me, the greatest achievement would be to be able to do that.

And the greatest, greatest honor would be able to just be the servants of my people. Really, that is like the greatest honor for me, to be able to serve the people who have suffered so much.

There's so much pain and there's so much that we can do to help those who have suffered throughout these years.

Where can people connect with you on social media and learn more about the cause you're working toward?

Well, I'll just start like the whole line of different social outlets that you can reach out to. My own Instagram and X account is Ashrafi Forever. So it's a S H R A F I the number 4 ever on LinkedIn.

You can find me under my own name, Zolal Habibi. And for to learn more about the resistance movement, there is, as I said, there's a site which is simpler to understand.

It's mayajavi4change.com there's also the website of the NCRI, which is ncr iran.org you can also find the social medias of, you know, the Iranian Resistance and Mr. Vajavi on mostly on X but also on different platforms. So on X it's like for my, I think Mayam dash and in X there's my job in use.

And then there is the Iran policy, Iran Underscore Policy in X, which is for the National Council of Resistance Foreign Affairs Committee. And yeah, for the most part, if you go on those, you could connect to the other accounts to not overwhelm everyone with a whole bunch of handles.

But we look forward to hearing from you and please feel free to reach out and we would be more than happy to respond to any questions or if you would like to do something right now in regards to the uprisings. We do have a request share what you've learned here today with your lawmakers.

Ask them to as I said, there are a few specific demands that the Iranian people have. One, if you're in the Europe or the UK blacklist the IRGC2 shut down Iran's embassies.

Ask your lawmakers to voice their support for the Iranian people and in their quest for a democratic secular republic in Iran to put an end to all forms of dictatorship, the current in the past and recognize the right of the Iranian people to resist in face of tyranny. There are a lot of demonstrations going on these days and throughout different cities.

If you would like to find out if there's a demonstration in your, you could reach out to iranfreedom.org their email is action centerranfreedom.org they are the ones who are organizing a lot of the demonstrations in different countries so they can put you in contact with the needed people in your own city or they could also direct you if there is an Iranian community in your city to be able to bold gatherings or rallies or whatnot and show your solidarity. So thank you very much and we hope that we can invite you to a free Iran very soon.

Thank you for sharing your time with us for your courage, your voice and your unwavering commitment to justice for the Iranian people.

Your insight gives us not only a clear understanding of the crisis, but also a deep sense of hope that change is possible even in the darkest moments. To our listeners, thank you for joining us today and this conversation has moved you. Share it with someone who needs to hear it.

Until next time, keep building bridges, keep seeking truth and keep standing up for human dignity. Zola, thank you again so much for your time.

Thank you very much. It was a pleasure to be with you.