“How can God be loving and allow suffering?” is one of the most difficult theological questions there is. Though we may not know why we suffer, we do not suffer alone. Yeshua Himself is called “a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief” (Isaiah 53:3). When enduring the inevitable trials of life, we are to trust in Him.

In this episode, we speak with Carissa Kerstetter and Kim Surasky, who struggle with chronic illness. We discuss questions including:

·     How does Yeshua’s suffering give us hope to endure our own suffering?

·     Does suffering have any purpose?

·     What advice would you give to a family member of someone who is suffering?

·     How does being aware of suffering in Jewish history help us share about the Messiah with Jewish people?

(Middle Eastern music)

- Welcome to Our Hope,

a production of Chosen People Ministries.

On this podcast, you will hear inspiring testimonies,

learn about messianic apologetics,

and discover God's plan for Israel and you.

Wherever you're listening,

we hope you lean in, listen closely, and be blessed.

(Middle Eastern instrumental music)

(gentle piano music)

- If God is good, then why do we suffer?

This is a question humans have pondered

for thousands of years.

We serve a God who is sovereign and has the power

to stop suffering, but many times he allows it.

When we endure personal trials, such as losing a job,

going through a divorce, or weathering chronic illness,

it can be hard to hold on to our faith.

On this episode, we are going to discuss how suffering

and faith can coexist and how to see God's goodness

in all circumstances.

Joining us are two very special guests,

Kim Surasky and Carissa Kerstetter.

Both have suffered in unique ways and they have seen God

move in the midst of their trials.

And we're also going to invite Nicole Vacca, our co-host,

to be a part of that conversation as well

as she walks through her own journey.

So, I introduce you to the host of the podcast, Abe Vazquez.

- Welcome to Our Hope, Abe.

- Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Usually Nicole does that part,

but because we're including her as part of the discussion,

I thought it would be good for me to sort of set her up.

Well, everyone, it's so good to have you.

It's so good to be back for another episode.

You know, this is a pretty tough episode.

I think we all go through different levels of suffering.

We all go through our own journeys.

I know I've gone through very specific journeys

with my wife and I've talked about that

and will talk about that in a future episode.

But, you know, there was one thing I think

that was close to especially Nicole's heart.

It's this idea of suffering longterm, chronic illness,

things that just kind of they're in your life

for a long time and that was just a topic that I don't think

is addressed a lot within our community.

And there are a lot of parallels that we're going to point to

just in terms of looking at the Jewish people,

looking at the suffering and the longterm suffering

they've gone through.

We're going to make some parallels to, you know,

the suffering of the Jewish people.

We're going to dig into that a little bit more,

but for now, let's just dive in.

So we have today Kim and Carissa

and Nicole you're already here,

so thanks for always being here.

- Thank you.

- So here's a question for all three of you,

'cause Nicole, I don't think you've answered this question.

What is your favorite food.

Carissa, why don't we start with you.

- I laughed when I saw this question coming

because I feel like you threw me right in the deep end.

I know it's supposed to be a light, fun icebreaker,

but I know I'm not alone

and Kim will understand when I answer.

I can't eat any of my favorite foods anymore.

A few years ago I might have told you pizza

or great corned beef sandwich

from my favorite deli in the Detroit area.

But now my answer's I'm stuck between things like

roasted cauliflower and garlicy Brussels sprouts.

- Well, those are still delicious, so.

I can also like understand because I have celiac

and so I can't have pizza.

I can't have the sandwich either.

It had to all be gluten-free and you know,

gluten-free has gotten better, but it's not quite the same.

- It's not the same.

- It's not the same, you know,

cauliflower pizza is not a New York slice.

- No.

Remind me to send you like a gluten-free pizza recipe.

- Oh yes, please do.

Kim, what about you?

- Well, I too, when I first read this,

when I was reading through the script and I said,

favorite food, do they know

what's going on with my digestive system?

So I absolutely echo exactly what Carissa said

and you learn to like different things

and you learn to like new things,

although I have been denied pizza and burgers

and all the things that I loved for so many years,

I now have learned to love rice and salmon and other things

and so I would say that probably salmon is my favorite food

at this time because I can digest it easily

and it gives me the nourishment that I need,

similar to probably what Carissa is talking about

with the Brussels sprouts and the cauliflower,

so it's good that we can adapt, right?

- And Nicole.

- Yeah, so similar situation here.

I used to love a good New York slice of pizza.

Can't have that anymore, and hamburgers,

but nowadays I eat eggs almost every day, which Abe knows.

- And Cheerios.

- And Cheerios, I love Cheerios.

And I also like my grilled chicken.

So actually grilled chicken

is probably my favorite right now.

- Yeah.

Well, I think we're all in good company.

- We're the non-pizza people.

- We're the non-pizza people, so sad.

So this is the saddest episode of Our Hope.

(all laughing)

So Kim, in a minute or so, talk about your work

with Chosen People Ministries,

how you're connected, what you do.

- So my husband came on staff as a missionary in 2006

and for those of us that are part of the ministry

know that when a spouse joins, the other spouse is included

in the bunch, even though we're not officially on staff.

So I've served in multiple capacities within Chosen People,

in that support role, obviously with my husband's ministry

going out and speaking in churches.

He also is a leader of messianic congregation,

so I aid and assist with that.

And I also serve on the leadership advisory team

for Chosen People Ministries as a spouse representative.

- Wonderful, wonderful, Carissa.

- I'm in a similar position to Kim in that I'm not on staff,

but we began working together and I very much consider

myself a part of this team, part of the team.

We began working with Chosen People in 2014.

Since the very beginning it's been our heart

to show the love, especially to (indistinct)

back hackers through hospitality and practical service.

- Great.

So Nicole, why don't you just start us off

and briefly talk about why jump into this topic?

Why bring Kim and Carissa?

Bring us into your thinking a little bit.

- Yeah, so I just think this is a topic

that I don't hear about enough in the world of Christianity

or messianic Judaism.

You know, we talk sometimes about like terminal illness,

but chronic illness is kind of in its own boat.

You know, it's a little bit different.

It kind of just makes life annoying

and it can be frustrating because, you know,

in Christian circles we focus a lot about God's power

to heal and so say how do we still push through

when we don't get the healing?

And so I wanted to encourage people who are dealing with

this kind of thing and suffering in general, you know,

we're all suffering with something,

even if we don't have any health issues

and so it's a very relevant topic right now.

- So for each of you, why don't you tell me quick version

of your story about what it is

that why you can't have pizza.

Carissa, why don't you start us off.

- Okay, without giving you any of the technical labels,

I have a number of chronic illnesses

and seem to keep collecting them.

Every time it seems I spend more time with a doctor

I get a new diagnosis and they don't cancel each other out,

so I just keep collecting them.

And some of them are genetic and I was born with

and only have learned about in the past few years,

and others I've developed only, haven't always been

or considered myself ill.

It really started to change my life in 2011

and has gone through ups and downs since then.

- And Kim.

- So I was diagnosed with Crohn's disease,

which is an autoimmune disease in 1999,

so I've been suffering from this disease for years,

however, before being diagnosed, I suffered as well.

I just did not know.

That's very common with autoimmune diseases.

We have all these symptoms and they don't add up.

You don't know what they are, they seem isolated,

but they're learning now that they're connected

and I'm sure that that's what's going on with Carissa.

I do collect illnesses as well because I also have

ulcerative colitis as well, so Crohn's disease,

ulcerative colitis, and I have chronic severe anemia

and the combination of those three is,

it's very difficult at times to just function.

- Wow, and Nicole.

- Yeah, so I started having issues with my stomach

when I was 16 years old,

but I was not diagnosed with Crohn's disease until I was 28.

So for 12 years, you know, I didn't have the right symptoms

at the right time and so they didn't do the right tests

and I kind of just went up and down between seasons

of remission and seasons of being very sick.

So I finally got diagnosed at the end of 2019

when I went for a capsule endoscopy.

- So, Kim, this is a question for you.

Let's go back a little bit.

I think people who are listening

who may also have some sort of illness or a situation

that's kind of longterm suffering,

might wonder why is there suffering to begin with?

Why do we even have to go through this?

So how did suffering come to earth and why is it still here?

- Well, that is a question that mankind has asked

for a long time and it's in the Bible.

It starts clearly in Genesis 3.

It talks about the fall of man

and when sin entered the world.

There is a clear connection between sin and suffering.

If you read through the verses, Genesis 3 states

that suffering and evil entered our world after sin did,

which is explained also in Revelation 21

and if you go to Revelation 20,

it shows that when sin leaves the world,

when God removes it from the earth,

so does suffering and evil.

So any explanation for suffering and evil

has to be rooted in sin.

There's a direct correlation between the two.

It can't be anything else.

- Carissa, I can imagine that, you know,

as you're reading the Word and studying the Word,

you can probably relate with Job a lot.

So when we read the Book of Job,

we know he was a righteous man,

but we also know that he suffered terribly,

but in spite of all that suffering, he remained faithful.

So what can we learn about suffering

and God's goodness from Job?

- So I don't think that you can have a discussion

about suffering in the Bible without talking about Job.

There's so much that you can take away from his story

or rather the story of God's relationship with Job,

but my biggest takeaway definitely has to be recognizing

that walking in faithfulness to God does not mean

that we will be exempt from suffering

or live a pain-free life.

The measure of our faith doesn't determine the measure

of our suffering and that's a great comfort to me

personally to know that it isn't necessarily a lack of faith

in my life that has put me in the position I'm in.

God actually says of Job in Job 1:8:

"There is no one like him on the earth,

a blameless and upright man,

fearing God and turning away from evil."

It was in fact, as you'll find,

if you read the story of Job, and if you haven't,

you absolutely should.

It was because of his great faith that God allowed satan

to test him with all kinds of pain and trials,

to prove that Job would not curse God

in the face of suffering.

- So, Nicole, question for you.

Isaiah 53, it's a well-known prophecy about Yeshua,

the suffering servant who died to atone for the sins

of humanity, we all, most of us know,

and one verse that stands out is verse five:

"But he was pierced through for our transgressions.

He was crushed for our inequities.

The chastening of our wellbeing fell upon him

and by his scourging we are healed."

In your opinion, how does our Messiah's suffering give us

hope to endure the suffering we're talking about here?

- Is a tough question, but as I think about it,

knowing that by his scouring we are healed,

even if I don't get my healing in this lifetime,

I know that this is not going to last forever

because I have eternal life through Jesus

and so I have an eternity to look forward to with no pain

and no suffering and no sickness

and I can eat at the wedding feast of the Lamb

anything that's on the table and not get sick

and that's amazing.

So that's one way I'm encouraged by this,

but also just knowing that Jesus, when he was here,

he suffered, even before the crucifixion,

he suffered with reputation issues.

The Pharisees didn't like him, he was persecuted,

he was blamed for a lot of things he didn't do.

He didn't change to please people

and he didn't change because he wanted to go the easy route

or, you know, even in the Garden of Gethsemane he said,

he prayed that God would let this cup pass from him,

but then he said, "Not my will, but yours be done."

So he gives us an example of how

to just keep pushing through in this life, knowing that,

yes, it's going to be hard, there's going to be trouble,

we're going to struggle at times,

but God is sovereign and he's in control

and so if he allows something, and he is good,

so if he allows something, there has to be a reason why

and so it encourages me to just keep trusting

God's sovereignty as I go through what I go through.

(worshipful music)

We'll be right back.

(gentle piano music)

- During these difficult times,

we know how hard it is to hold on to hope

and we want you to know that Chosen People Ministries

is here for you.

If you have any prayer request,

our prayer team is standing by to receive them.

You can submit your request at Chosen People.com/pray.

Again, that's Chosen People.com/pray.

- Shalom, this is Mitch Glaser

with Chosen People Ministries.

I know that you're concerned about what's happening

in the Ukraine right now.

Russia has been on the attack and it seems unrelenting.

So many people are suffering

and among that group of people who are suffering

are well over 200,000 Ukrainian Jewish people.

We've already sent aid, food, water, all sorts of materials,

as well as Chosen People missionaries

to the border between Ukraine and Poland

and we're having an active ministry there right now.

We're also in touch with the 10 or 12 congregations

that we work with in Ukraine itself

and we've been sending in a little bit of funding

where we can get it in, but keeping in touch with them,

so please pray for the Ukraine

and for Chosen People Ministries.

- Question for anyone.

Does suffering have any purpose?

- So I would say that the simple answer is yes, of course.

I think that everything has purpose.

If I had to give a little more in-depth answer

I would say that the scriptures tell story after story

of those who have suffered and have been tested

and that the pages of the Bible are filled with what

was produced from it, which is good and bad.

But it talks about that in 1 Peter 1:7

and it explains that these tests,

when they are surrendered to God,

what God does with those things, it helps to develop,

increase our faith, and to show proof of our faith

when we choose to give that to him.

And the scripture says:

"So that the proof of your faith being more precious

than gold, which is perishable, even though tested by fire,

may be found to result in praise and glory and honor

at the revelation of Messiah Yeshua."

And in my experience, the greater the suffering,

the greater the opportunity for growth.

He has proven this to me over and over through it all.

We can choose to take the opportunity

or we can choose not to

and God always gives us a choice, even in this.

So it's hard to understand sometimes

and it's definitely not an easy process,

and it's true that there is pain and suffering,

whether it's physical, mental, or emotional,

and because of that,

there is always a great cost for that growth.

- I just want to add real quick,

some of the most like spiritually fruitful times in my life

were times of suffering

and I know that if I didn't get my Crohn's diagnosis,

I wouldn't have really learned how to cook

and I wouldn't have really learned how to rest

and so I did learn a lot during this season.

- Carissa, as you keep going to the doctors

and they keep kind of giving you more and more,

I guess, bad news, can you see the purpose

in this season you're in?

Can you see the purpose of the suffering that you continue

to go through while you're in it?

- Absolutely.

Certainly I have days that's not as clear to me.

I have have my dark days and I've had a lot of them

and I've had plenty of days that I've doubted God's goodness

and really had to wrestle through these questions myself

and go back to things I've written down

or call up people to speak hard truth into my life.

But yes, absolutely.

I see purpose in my suffering and in the suffering

of the world.

I'm a deep thinker so I spiral down these questions

and I have to come back continually to the root question

of that we all probably have to face it

at least once in our life of how could a good God

who loves me, who loves the world, allow so much suffering?

And I think that has to be at the forefront

of many people's minds right now with all that's going on

in the world, especially right now with the war in Ukraine

and so many people suffering and being displaced.

And for me, I have to come back to the answer that

not only can a good God allow suffering,

but that it is God's goodness and grace to us

to allow suffering and that's a hard statement to make

and it might baffle people,

but it sounded for some to believe

that there is no greater good for humanity than knowing God

and being in relationship with him.

So anything that hinders our relationship and fellowship

with God is an obstacle to our ultimate good.

If, as we said, suffering is a result of disobedience

to God, bringing sin into the world, and God is only good

and holy, there is no evil in him, 1 John 1:5 says,

"God is light and in him there is no darkness at all."

If sin had not entered the world, there would be no evil,

no suffering, no darkness.

Likewise, in God's presence, there's no evil,

no suffering, no darkness.

So experiencing these things gives us a very stark contrast,

darkness in the world, the darkness of suffering,

contrasted against God's perfect light, peace, hope and joy,

and the darkness of suffering showcases God's light

and by showing us everything that he is not,

it can serve to seek him in the light.

And we know this is true when there are times

of great suffering, churches and synagogues

are never more full than in times of great suffering,

in times of war and unrest like we see right now.

We never pray more as individuals

than when we're going through an illness

or a loved one is in the hospital

or we have lost a loved one or lost a job

and we're going through a hard time.

We never ask questions more like,

"What is the purpose of life?

Is there a God?

What comes after this life?"

But when we're in times of war and grief,

like the world is experiencing right now.

- I never really thought of it that way.

Like I knew that was a truth,

but I never thought of it in that way of, you know,

there's suffering in the world, it's evil, it's dark,

but it's sort of everything that God is not

and to then experience what God is when he returns.

I think that is so encouraging 'cause it's is just like,

I can think about all the suffering that I've gone through

personally and all the suffering in the world and how it

makes me feel, how upset it makes me feel,

you know, that yes, the injustice in Ukraine,

the injustice in so many places and how I get angry

thinking about it, but that same anger

is just going to be sort of transformed into joy

once it's all done, once there's peace on earth, like, wow.

Like I never really put those two realities

up against each other, but yeah, that is awesome.

So you both serve in ministry alongside your partners

and there have been times where you persevered in your work,

despite the challenges you faced.

What advice would you give to someone

who is serving the Lord while going through a hard season?

And Nicole, I, of course, include you in that as well.

- I would encourage them to just press into God

as much as they can in their lives.

It's a very simple answer, but it's very difficult to do.

The times that I pressed into God,

rather than pulling away from him

have been the greatest growth in my relationship with him

and his presence in my life.

But I have learned that coming to the one

who's doing the work in my life and allowing me to suffer

is probably harder than anything.

Our natural tendency is to draw away and flee

from the source of pain

and if God is a allowing suffering in our lives,

it's only natural to want to do that, to pull away.

But I've learned that God who also allows the pain

that might cut me deeply is also the only remedy

for that suffering and it's a very interesting,

it's a very difficult thing to explain to people

when they don't understand God

because we get questions often from people, you know,

why do you believe in God?

Why would you choose, it's similar to Job's wife, you know,

just curse him and die.

Why are you being faithful to this God

that's allowing you to suffer?

It's a testimony to the world when we do that.

When we persevere, when we press into him,

when we choose him over the resentment or the bitterness

or the lack of hope, all the things that you can have

when you have chronic illness for a long period of time,

there are valleys, there are peaks,

but there are a lot of valleys that you will walk through

and it can feel hopeless at times.

That's why your relationship with God is the anchor

that you hold onto.

It is what sustains you

and carries you through those valleys.

He carries us.

So that's my answer is that it's simple, but not simple.

Pressing into God when we're hurting

is probably one of the hardest things

I've ever had to do in my life.

- I have a two-parter question.

So this one's specifically for Kim and Carissa.

What has been the role of your spouse in your suffering?

How have they supported you through this?

Talk us through that a little bit.

- You've given me a golden opportunity

to brag on my amazing husband.

I did not know what I was getting when I married this guy,

but God really knew ahead of time what I needed

and he would be an incredible support

through all that we were about to go through

as a married couple.

My husband BJ has truly been the embodiment of Jesus

in my life.

He first and foremost seeks a relationship with the Lord

himself and encourages that for me,

but he lives that out practically every day as he serves me,

and now our toddler, in very practical ways.

He's gracious when I'm grumpy,

when I'm having one of the dark days that I talked about.

He's there to remind me of truth.

When I'm doubting, he puts up with me when that doubt

and fear and pain comes out as anger and does so greatly,

that he's quick to forgive it

and these are vulnerable things to share,

but I think I won't be alone in admitting

that when we go through hard times,

not the prettiest sides of ourselves tend to come out.

But in the practical ways also,

he shows up for the doctor's appointments and helps me

navigate the medical jargon that I can't understand.

And even goes so far as to eat all of the different foods

that I eat without expecting me to cook a separate meal

for him or bring pizza into the house

when he knows that'll make me sad.

- Wow.

- Can I just add on to that?

- Yeah, absolutely.

- 'Cause I do echo exactly what she's saying.

We have the same husband apparently

because my husband is very,

(all laughing)

he is a gift from God.

I cannot imagine walking through this without him,

but I'd like to say something about to the spouse,

not just being grateful for who I have,

and to that person that is walking alongside the person

that is going through the suffering

and especially if it's a chronic illness.

I would say that you may never understand the pain

that your loved one is going through and that's okay.

You know, I don't expect those in my life to know

exactly what it's like and I wouldn't want them to.

I wouldn't wish this on anyone.

I would suggest that if you are in that situation,

that you give your loved one space that they need

and be available to help when asked and just love them.

The one you love is going through so much

and they may not be able to let you know

or even understand what they need at that moment.

My husband is so patient with me whenever I have a flare up

from Crohn's and he gives me space

to work through all the feelings,

my symptoms, my limitations that I'm dealing with.

However, he helps me when I ask,

and this applies to all types of pain and suffering,

not just chronic illness

because we all process it differently.

We need to just be a support.

It is a hard road for a support person

and often they do get shadowed and overlooked

because, especially when you're married,

you are one flesh and what hurts me, hurts him

and vice versa, so that support system

is just an amazing gift from God if you have it.

I'm grateful that I do.

- I want to add that one of the most important things

that I think my husband and I have learned,

really I should say my family and I have learned

because both my family and my husband and family

really understand and live this out well,

is that God gave me this illness, this steward,

and my perspective really shifted when I recognized

that my illness is not a hindrance from living out

the other purposes that God has given me,

but rather is a purpose in and of itself.

God has given me my work, my passions, my skills,

my family, my community, and also my illness.

It is a part of my calling, but not only that,

it is something that God has asked my loved ones

to steward with me and I have struggled

through all of this with guilt that my illness

has devastated not only my life, but my husband.

So many of our dreams and plans have been shattered

by my illness and it very often feels like my fault.

He would never, would ever imply that

or make me feel that way,

but it's in my own heart and mind to feel that way.

But when I shift my perspective to remember that God

has asked me to steward this well

and has also asked my husband

and people around me to steward this well,

it shifts my mindset from that of a victim

to that of someone who is called

to live through something well

and to see what God wants to do with it

and how he will use it not only in my life,

but for his greater purposes.

How can he use it to teach my community something?

For example, by simply stepping into this role and saying,

"Yes, I have suffered and I don't have to hide

that suffering," but to say that in the face

of that suffering, God has been good to me

and I will worship him and I will pray to him,

is to let God be glorified through my experience.

- Yeah, that's awesome, that's awesome.

So Nicole, a slightly different question.

What role does community play in our suffering?

And if you had, I mean, you have a mic right now,

but if you had a big megaphone right now,

if you could speak to all the people who are in touch

or in relationship with those who are suffering

with chronic illness, long, you know,

sort of longterm suffering,

what would you say to them?

How can they or how should they support

those going through this?

- Well, I think there's,

the role of community for those who are suffering,

I know in my life, being around other people

who are going through something and can resonate

with what I'm going through has definitely helped me

and that's why I'm grateful for Kim

and I'm grateful for Carissa and I'm grateful for everybody

I meet who's dealing with something,

even if it's not the same exact thing I'm dealing with,

just because they get it.

You know, they know that it's not always happy,

it's not always easy, and so oftentimes whatever

they've learned in their walk has encouraged me

in my own walk and has helped strengthen my faith

when I'm at a low point.

And then being around people who haven't gone through

what I've gone through still encourages me

and is still important to me because I believe

that we need each other in the body, and you know,

we've talked about this a little bit in the episode

with Scott about community.

There's a lot we can all learn from each other

and that's why I really like what Carissa said.

Just the fact that maybe we're bringing attention

to something that a lot of people out there are dealing with

that maybe some people are just not familiar with

and so we're helping equip other believers as well

in their ministry or in their walk whenever they meet people

who are suffering, just to have some knowledge of it

and to understand a little bit what that person

is going through.

And I think my overall message to community

is walk with that person who's suffering,

sit with that person who's suffering,

ask what they need, but also again, just listen.

Oftentimes we just want to vent

and maybe just have encouragement in our faith.

- I think it's easy to be there in the big moments when,

you know, someone loses a family member

or someone sort of has a terminal illness or, you know,

things like that, but when you intentionally

step into someone's life who has

some sort of longterm suffering, it just changes things.

It means so much more.

I know firsthand what that's like when

I talk about my first born Ariah when we lost her,

that was a big moment, right,

but I think there is a long suffering that comes with it

because there's not a day that I don't think about her

and there's not a day where it's not painful for me.

And so those who check in, those who remember her

and honor her, those who walk with me, even,

you know, we're coming up on three years, crazy.

You know, those who sort of like are there with me

throughout that, it just changes the relationship.

That friendship, it just, man, it goes so deep.

It's so rock solid, you know,

so I hear that, Nicole, for sure.

- Can I say something about the community as well?

Because, yes, I know that Carissa and I talked about

our husbands and she did mention her family.

You do need a support system,

especially with a chronic illness, you do need it

and you know who those people are in your life.

You know, like I have friends that will call and check on me

or they'll see me and they'll notice

that maybe I'm just not carrying myself well or something

and they'll check in and they know,

or even just through recent times that we've been in

and they're checking in, "How are you doing?

Are you okay?"

You know, "I'm worried about you because of X, Y, and Z,"

or whatever, it really makes a difference when you have

that community to surround you, to support you

and not necessarily try to fix you in the illness

because that's one advice I would give to people,

I'm not looking for people to come and fix me,

I'm looking for people to support me and love me

through the process and I appreciate that they want me

to be better, but I ultimately believe

in the sovereignty of God and his hand on my life

and if I'm to be healed, I will be healed.

And if I'm not healed until the world to come,

I'm okay with that.

It's hard for people to understand that sometimes,

but the ones that do, they are so valuable.

They are gold to you.

They are so important.

You need those people in your life.

- If there's any people group who understand suffering,

it's the Jewish people.

They're are, you see it all over scripture,

all over the history of the Jewish people.

For thousands of years they've gone through seasons

of suffering, so how can being aware of this suffering

help us share the Messiah with the Jewish community?

- Well, I would say, I think that's a really big question

and a really big answer.

Probably could be a podcast in of itself,

but I would like to say that one of the things

that exemplifies that how sweetness and suffering

go hand in hand and the Jewish people

really do understand that is with the bride and groom.

I think that that was the first time

it was really spoken to me and explained in a way

because when the bride and groom drink from the wine glass,

breaks the glass.

It symbolizes the destruction of the temple and people ask,

"Well, why are we remembering this

on such a beautiful occasion of a wedding?

There's so much joy."

Well, joy is tempered with sadness

and when you understand sadness, you understand joy.

You can't understand the fullness of joy

without understanding sadness.

There has to be context.

And so the Jewish people have done this well, right?

They've been through history,

have suffered greatly at the hands of others,

choices they made personally for themselves,

and they get it, they understand how that suffering.

You do have to understand the gladness and

it's important, that ritual to me,

I just remember when we were getting married,

understanding on a deeper level and wondering,

well, why do we have to talk about this

and understand these things?

No matter how good things are,

we need to remember that only God,

only because of God they are good

and that really is the core of all of that.

And no matter how bad things get,

there is always hope that we can turn to God

and the Jewish people have done that throughout history.

That is the primary message of the prophets

throughout the Hebrew scriptures,

that no matter how far we have turned away from God,

he is always ready to forgive and accept us back

and that in a nutshell is the gospel message.

And they don't understand that,

that suffering that they have gone through

is designed by God's hand to bring them to that answer,

which is Yeshua, the answer of the goodness of God,

the answer that he is the solution for all of that.

It doesn't take away the suffering,

but the hope that we have in him is what sustains us

and carries us all the way through.

- So as we wrap up, first of all, thank you, Kim,

Carissa and Nicole for being so vulnerable

and talking with us about this.

Can you you briefly share a testimony

of when God helped you in your suffering?

Carissa, why don't you go first.

- Absolutely, the time that I have in mind

is actually not in relation to suffering

through chronic illness,

but suffering through the loss of a loved one.

On June 23rd in 2016, my husband and I woke up

in our apartment in Tel Aviv, Israel,

to 13 missed calls from my family.

A few moments later,

I learned that my 19 year old brother, Levi,

had gone to be with the Lord.

I was in shock,

fell hyperventilating onto the bathroom floor

and couldn't bring myself to ask what had happened or when.

I could only take the next breath.

When I was finally able to pick myself up off the floor

and breathe again, we went through the motions

of getting ready, getting dressed so that we could begin

the process of getting back home to the States

to be with my family.

I walked out of the dark bedroom into the living area,

which was flooded with light.

I walked over to the window like a zombie

and looked out from the 25th floor apartment

over a bustling Israeli city and the sun

literally sparkling on the water of the Mediterranean

and I haven't had many moments like this in my life,

but in that moment, God spoke so clearly to my heart.

He brought to mind the words of Ezekiel 37

about the valley of dry bones and I

could almost hear him speak to me, "Look at this city.

This is proof that I keep my promises.

I am the God of the Resurrection.

These were dry bones scattered across the earth

and I am bringing them from death to life.

You will see Levi again because he's not dead but alive."

- That's beautiful, Kim.

- Wow, so I remember one day very clearly

when God really helped me in a most beautiful way.

I was struggling through a bad flare up and it had been

several days of the suffering and I was not able

to get out of bed, I couldn't eat, I was very weak.

I had been praying for days for relief

that God would heal me,

just something, that something would happen

and at that moment I felt God speak to my heart

to pray that I would feel his presence.

He wanted me to change my prayer for healing

to feeling his presence and I did and he answered it.

I literally could feel his presence surround me

and it comforted me.

It was like he had had his arms around me

and I felt it not just emotionally,

not just in a spiritual way,

I physically could feel the presence of God

enveloping my body and holding me.

Now that may sound simple to some people

for that to just be a prayer,

but it truly was an intimate and powerful moment with him.

That day I feel that I learned that God works with us

in the suffering, every moment, every breath,

and not just through the suffering.

He's with us through all of it

in the intricate moment by moments of the suffering,

not just from the beginning,

not just at the end, but the whole process

and when you experience that kind of presence of God

in the midst of that, it transforms and changes your life.

- That's awesome.

Nicole, do you have something you want to share?

- So I mentioned earlier that the reason I was diagnosed

with Crohn's, the test that helped us find out that I had it

was the capsule endoscopy, which I had in December of 2019.

And when I signed the waiver for that test,

I understood that there was a risk that the capsule

could get stuck.

It's basically you swallow a pill with a camera inside

and goes through your whole digestive tract.

And so it got stuck and I was admitted to the hospital

for so six days and it was December.

We were in the middle of end of year

and it was a very difficult season for us as a team

and for six days, Abe forbade me from doing any work

in the hospital.

I had to rest the whole time I was there

and I felt so useless and I remember one night

I was just walking around with my IV pole,

'cause, you know, trying to avoid blood clots,

and I remember just thinking to myself,

like being in the hospital challenged my view of the value

of human life because we often tend to think that the people

who are accomplishing the most are the most valuable people,

but that's not how God sees it.

And as I was walking around,

I thought about the fact that I don't have value

because of what I do, I have value because of who I am

and who God created me to be and the fact that Jesus

died for me shows how much value I have.

And so that was something I learned that was huge

during that season.

- Ladies, thank you so much.

This was, I didn't know what to expect

walking into this episode, honestly,

and I'm so encouraged today.

There's so much that I picked up on and caught and heard

and I think our listeners are going to be really encouraged

listening to this, so thank you so much.

- Thank you so much.

- Thank you, it was an honor.

- Thank you.

(worshipful piano music)

- "As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives

and at the last he will take his stand on the earth.

Even after my skin is destroyed, yet from my flesh,

I shall see God whom I myself shall behold and whom my eyes

will see and not another."

That's from Job 19:25-27.

Though suffering is difficult to endure and understand,

we have hope in knowing that it will not last forever.

Sometimes God allows our hardships for mysterious reasons,

but in the midst of our trials,

he is still sovereign and good.

Furthermore, he understands how we feel.

Our Messiah came to earth as a man and suffered for our sins

so that we can look forward to eternal life with him.

When that day comes, we will suffer no more.

Knowing this lets us put our trust in Yeshua

and rely on his spirit to help us persevere

and press on in the race.

If you've enjoyed this podcast,

please leave us a review on Apple Podcast

or give us a rating on Spotify.

Let us know how this podcast has moved you.

We would also love if you can share it on social media

with your friends and family.

Thank you for listening to this week's episode of Our Hope

featuring Kim Surasky and Carissa Kerstetter.

This episode was produced and written by Nicole Vacca

and edited by Grace Swee.

This episode was also made possible

thanks to Dr. Mitch Glaser, Rachel Larson,

Kyron Bautista and John Bautista.

I'm Abe Vasquez, until next time.

(worshipful music)

- Thanks for listening to Our Hope.

If you like our show and want to know more,

check out OurHopePodcast.com or ChosenPeople.com.

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See you next time.