In a rich dialogue on the Clarity Podcast, Nick Fatato joins Aaron to explore the nuanced dynamics of transformative leadership. At the core of their discussion lies the biblical verse from Acts 13:36, which speaks to the profound desire to fulfill one’s God-given purpose. Fatato articulates his commitment to living intentionally, reflecting on how he assesses his own alignment with God's calling. The conversation takes a compelling turn as they examine the metaphor of a sailboat's keel, symbolizing the internal stability required to navigate life’s storms. Fatato's insights underscore the necessity of cultivating a deep, resilient inner life through consistent spiritual practices and disciplines. This imagery not only resonates with the challenges leaders face but also emphasizes the importance of grounding oneself to maintain balance amid external pressures.

Another pivotal theme in their conversation is the sacrament of friendship and its essential role in leadership. Fatato shares the significance of having trusted confidants who can provide support and encouragement during challenging times. Drawing on the friendship between David and Jonathan, he illustrates how deep relationships tether individuals to their calling and remind them of their worth even in moments of failure. This discussion highlights the need for leaders to foster connections that promote accountability and understanding, particularly in the context of spiritual leadership where the stakes are high. They also tackle the pressing issue of spiritual abuse, advocating for a culture of grace and restoration rather than judgment. Furtado calls for humility in leadership, encouraging listeners to walk alongside those who have stumbled and to recognize the journey toward redemption as a vital aspect of faith.

The episode culminates in a reflection on the contemporary challenges faced by leaders in a fast-paced, success-driven world. Fatato warns against the pitfalls of transactional leadership, where metrics often overshadow meaningful relationships. He emphasizes the importance of fostering authentic connections that contribute to long-term effectiveness and impact. By prioritizing soul care and nurturing deep relationships, leaders can cultivate an environment of support and resilience. This episode serves as a profound reminder of the holistic nature of leadership, where personal integrity, relational depth, and a commitment to God’s purpose intertwine to create a transformative leadership experience.

Takeaways:

• Transformative leadership is about recognizing God as the senior partner in decision-making.
• A cumulative life built on spiritual practices can prepare us for life's storms.
• Friendship is a sacrament, and deep relationships are vital for spiritual leaders.
• David's quick repentance demonstrates the importance of doing good after doing bad.
• Soul care and intentional friendships are essential for sustained effectiveness in ministry.
• The weight of our spiritual lives acts as a keel, stabilizing us amid life's challenges.

Hey there and welcome back to the Clarity Podcast.

This podcast is all about providing clarity insight and encouragement for life mission.

My name is Aaron Sandemier and I get to be your host today.

We have the phenomenal opportunity to have with us back on the podcast Nick Furtado and we sit down and have a conversation around transformative leadership.

Nick spoke at a meeting I was at in Dubai and just thought it would be great to sit down and unpack some of the concepts and and things that he shared there.

So we dive in.

He shares about a biblical text that he once shared about him when the day comes and he passes away.

What he likes shared about him at his funeral.

We talk about the importance of having a cumulative life that's based on disciplines and how those over the long haul, how they impact us.

The sacrament of friendship.

Nick has some great insights.

We'll talk about a story about a boat and a keel and the relationship of investing in that keel and how it balances us when the storms come.

Just really enjoyed having Nick on the podcast.

He's insightful.

You can see his passion, love for Jesus and Nick's the same person in person as he is in public.

And man, those are the people I love to hang out with.

Would ask you to continue to subscribe to the podcast and to the podcasts I'm subscribed to or the ones I listen to.

Know what I'm going to be listening to throughout the week and don't forget to send in your questions for Backchannel with Foath.

That's where we get to sit down with Dick Foth and get to learn from him on life and ministry and his wisdom and years of experience and that's it's always a joy to have Dick with us on the podcast.

Yeah.

As you begin this new year, just wanted to mention once again my book, A Caring Family.

It came out in December and it's a book that I wish I would have read 20 years ago or had the conversation 20 years ago or as Nick would share in this podcast, a friend sat me down and had a conversation.

The importance of being loved and known and not just being unique and special and how we, we have that opportunity in a family to formulate a caring, loving family.

Help us to care, care better and love longer.

Well, there's no time better than now to get started.

So here we go.

Greetings and welcome back to the Clarity podcast.

So excited to have our friend of the podcast, Nick.

Nick, welcome back to the podcast.

Thank you so much, Aaron.

Good to be with you again.

Yes.

Nick, if those who didn't listen to the first podcast are listening in, could you share a little bit about yourself before we jump into spiritual leadership?

Absolutely.

I grew up in Michigan.

I was a Baptist preacher's kid and loved sports and went to college for sports.

And there I encountered an organization called Chi Alpha.

And that began about a 20 year run of my life working on college and university students, which eventually brought me to Boston where I worked with students and then pastored a church in downtown Boston for a decade and then moved to our network office, which oversees Massachusetts, Rhode island and Connecticut in leadership development.

And then about six years ago, was elected as the superintendent of this area.

So how's that for a 40 year run in 30 seconds?

It's a good deal.

And I see a guitar behind you.

Are you a musician?

I think those chops are pretty old, but in the day they were.

That's why it's hanging on the wall.

And it's got some great memories.

Yeah, my, my mother want to be a musician, so she tried a few years of piano lessons and then after piano lessons then she moved me to trumpet, then from trumpet to tuba, and then she finally gave up and said that was not going to be my.

My future.

So anyway, but she did.

She.

She spent a lot of years and a lot of money trying to make that happen.

So Nick got a few questions on.

We had the opportunity to be together in Dubai a few months back and really valued what you shared in your message and thought it'd just be great to have you on the podcast.

Just to unpack it a little further, and you were sharing about a phrase or biblical text that you would like to be shared about you at your funeral.

Could you share?

I never heard somebody honestly talk about that.

So what, so what is the text and how did you land on this one?

Yeah, so I think I discovered it's a simple little verse.

And probably I would say as much as 30 years ago I came across it and the text goes like this.

When David had completed God's purpose in his generation, then he fell asleep and was buried.

And so the statement that I like to say that if I die tomorrow, if I die 20 years from now, and Aaron does my funeral, that he'll stand up and he'll say, nick Furtado has completed God's purpose in his generation.

Now he's dead.

Have a good day.

So I really.

And I hope you would say more, but if that's the only thing you said honestly, that's How I've tried to live my life.

And so I've used that verse literally for decades now.

At the end of each year, say, how am I.

How am I stewarding God's purpose for my generation?

It I joke about, I say it's a tattoo verse, but I don't have a tattoo.

But if I had a tattoo, it would be that verse.

And so, so purpose.

So somebody's listening in, they're saying, love.

It resonates.

At the same time, how do you said at the end of the year, you look at your purpose.

How have you been able to process through that to figure out what your purpose is and how you evaluate that or look at that to make sure you're doing what God.

God's called you to do?

That's a great question.

And I think we have to be very intentional.

There's certain things that our decisions can affect and our approach can affect, and there's other things that, you know, God just invades or surprises us and we want both.

But I think we have to steward the one that we can control.

And the one that we control is, you know, kind of a husband I am, what kind of a minister I am, what kind of a dad am I?

And those things, as, you know, as you matriculate through years, change in the dynamic of what they mean, and as you matriculate through ministry assignments, those things.

So, you know, the questions were probably the same, you know, 30 years ago, but the context is very different.

And, and I just want to answer the question, you know, I'm not responsible for the next generation or the last generation.

I'm responsible for those that, that I engage with.

And then my.

Am I stewarding that?

And by stewarding it, you know, it's, it's decision making, its prayer life, it's practices and targets and.

Good deal.

Good deal.

Good word.

I've learned to ask some questions so I don't get emails in the, you know, normally people.

Why didn't you ask this question between.

This one.

This one.

So I'm trying, I'm learning to try to grow.

And my question asking.

So transformative leadership.

You shared about transformative leadership.

What, what does that mean to you and how does it guide you as you're, you're leading and you're serving people?

Yeah.

You know, I, I think all of us that, that lead, we probably have multiple shelves of, of leadership books and, and a lot of them are from business world, a lot of them are from Christian world.

But I think there's a, there's an l And I'm, I'm a fan of those, I have those shells.

I, I don't dismiss that.

But I do recognize that leading in a transformational way or spiritual leadership, I'm, I'm not, I'm not the senior partner partner in the decision making process or in the, in action.

God is.

Yeah.

And so I must posture myself as the junior partner.

Didn't use business terms that I'm, I'm here to, I'm here to serve.

So when I, when I lead, whether it's an organization or a church or in a strategic, you know, situation, I must posture myself in a way that none of this gets transformatively accomplished without the work of God.

While I, as you know, as you, you know, do this a long time.

I'm so shocked by.

There was, Lauren Cunningham said a statement once.

He said, we have gotten so good at the work of ministry that the spirit doesn't even know to show up for 10 years before we're in trouble.

And he was saying it in a repentive way.

Yeah.

And that, that's really rattled me, Aaron.

Like, I, I don't want to get that good.

Yeah.

And that's where I think, and I think whether that's, you know, I'm facing some, some very difficult, you know, church situations even today.

And, you know, I oversee about 200 churches and, and I, is my prayer time this morning I said, God, I'm not, I'm not good enough, smart enough, creative enough to go into that room today, but I'm the one that has to do it.

And I believe God got me.

So I think it's.

It.

I don't know that I'm answering it really, but it's, it's really seeing that, that God is the leverage because we can figure that it's our personality or our cleverness or our good decision making or our, our strong personality.

Those only take you so far.

And I had a mentor say to me some time ago, he said, nick, you will, you will, you will reach a point when you realize you can't accomplish things just in your own strength.

And I was, I was a young man at the time, you know, probably late 30s or early 30s, and, and he said, you think you can do anything you want, you want to start a church, you'll go start a church.

I said, that's right.

You want to do this?

I said, that's right.

He said, well, you're gonna get to a place where you aren't going to be able to.

And he said, I would recommend you start Learning to allow God to work through you in your leadership processing.

And that honestly, I don't think we'd be having this conversation had that man not invested in my life in that moment, probably literally 35 years ago.

Wow.

And that you're.

You remember and how much of an impact it has made.

You know, I appreciate what you shared a lot of.

And you and I were talking on the phone the other day.

I value leadership and what I would consider the transactional world.

And a lot of the business ones are transactional.

Right.

You have a business and it's more of a transaction between a business and a person or business and organization.

But you highlighted there, you know, we're.

Jesus came as a transformative.

You know, he.

He transforms.

And as we walk in that recognizing the difference and, and not trying to make it a transaction, I think will help guide each of us as we walk in this.

In spiritual leadership for sure.

So good.

You mentioned about living a practice life and how that impacts us.

And then the.

The living a practice life and calm culminate cumulative effect over time, kind of stacking days and doing the right things for athletes, say, stacking days.

How does that.

How does living a practice life impact us?

And what's the.

What is the value of doing this over a long.

A long period of time?

Yeah, you know, I.

Let me give a framework real briefly.

Is, you know, I.

I love that verse that we opened up with.

And I think it was about two years ago I thought, if I'm gonna say when David completed his life that, you know, it was said about him.

Yeah, he completed God's purpose in his generation.

And David, those of us that read the scriptures about it, he was a scoundrel at times.

He wasn't.

He didn't get it right all the time, but still.

Which is actually very encouraging.

At the end of his life, it was said he God's purposes.

So I took a long journey on deconstructing his life.

And.

And the first thing was the most simple.

When we think about the shepherd David, that he would get up in the morning, I think, and he would take his sling, would take some stones, and he would just practice every day, just practice trying to hit a.

Trying to hit a clay pot.

Trying to hit a clay pot.

And then one day he hits it, and then he hits it three times.

And then when a bear comes, he does what he always did.

He kills it.

When a lion comes, he does what he always does.

And when a giant comes, he does what he did.

And I think, you know, another, you know, missionary that, that I admire.

He said once, you know, if you got to get ready for something, you're going to miss a lot.

You need to be practicing and prepared and, and I think other illustrations about that.

But it's, it's, you know, we can call it devotions, we can call it spiritual practices, we can call it rhythms and routines.

I think that, you know, I played football and I can remember as a young boy just going, and I couldn't wait to play football.

And the first practice said, you know, Coach said, Run 10 laps.

I don't want to run laps.

I want to play football.

I don't want to do push ups, tackle this plastic dummy.

I want to hit a person.

I don't want to do that.

Yeah.

Then when it came time to play, I was ready.

I think so much of ministry and leadership is, is instinctual and I think it's spiritual instincts that are built through practices.

In sports.

We call it muscle memory.

You don't think about, oh, I got to make that move.

I got to do that cut.

It's because your practices and spiritual things and spiritual leadership.

I need to know that I naturally, I don't have to think, oh, do I need to pray?

I naturally go, oh, do I need to offer grace?

I naturally go, oh, do I need to deliver, you know, the Scriptures.

And so if we listed the list of practices, we'd all come up with different lists.

But I think at the end of the day, you know, we.

I was with, I lead a group of denominational leaders in my area.

And I told him the other day, I said, and I'm the only Pentecostal in the room, so, you know, all my Baptist friends, Luther friends, and I said, you know, you guys, I've added the practices to my life of silence, silence, solitude and Sabbath.

I said, we Pentecostals don't know how to be quiet.

You don't know how to be alone.

And we just want to work and work and try harder and work and we don't know how to do Sabbath.

And I was startled by one of them who say, that's not limited to you Pentecostals, but I tell you honestly that pr.

Those practices over the last four years have been revolutionary but very, very new.

They weren't natural practices.

I only tell you that story to say, as you matriculate through life, those practices will adjust a lot.

Wow.

And hopefully, hopefully we mature, mature in the process.

So.

Yeah, that's right.

You know, where I grew up, that love language was work.

And as you said about Pentecostals.

I don't.

I don't know where that comes from, but I've seen it a lot in the.

In the church I grew up in.

But if you want to see how people.

If they loved you, they work.

You know, I was kind of a love language and, And.

And kind of sparsing that out.

My dad would say, you know, people would.

From where I grew up, if they love you, they'll make you hunt.

They're like bees.

If they love you, they'll make you honey.

If they don't like you, they'll sting you to death.

And so just that.

That the same things, but could do.

Could do both.

So.

And I.

I think in.

In our, you know, in my.

My world, my.

My, you know, peers.

Yeah, I like to say we're the.

We're the pray harder, try harder organizations.

And so we pray harder, we try harder, and then we die.

And I just think if we can find those rhythms or get a few more laps around.

Around the track, for sure.

I think the older I get, I realize the less, the more that he's in control and the less I'm in control of a lot.

A lot.

A lot of things.

A lot of things.

You talked about going through David's life and kind of unpacking that you shared about when he was faced with a giant, that we must be able to be CB beyond and see bigger than the giant that's in front of us.

What happens if we do are not able to see bigger than the giant that's in front of us?

Yeah, Yeah.

I, you know, I.

I think when we're.

We can be frozen.

We can be frozen by fear.

We can, you know, we can get good at it.

And then we.

We have the talent of avoidance.

And I, I think the other thing is if.

If we don't see that God is bigger than the giant, then the giant is the end all.

If I know God is bigger than the giant, then whatever I'm facing is temporary.

But if I see only the giant, then that is the end of it.

That's the end of it.

And.

And again, we.

What's in front of us always dominates our attention.

And so, you know, the intentionality says this diagnosis, this financial challenge, this relationship that can't seem to be healed, this overwhelming leadership task is not bigger than God.

And that sounds so elementary, even as I say it to you, Aaron, I think people are gonna say, yeah, really, you've just figured that out?

But.

But it is a.

It is a really.

When David.

You know, David, I Almost think was, was trash talking the giant, you know, like you would come against the armies of God.

What kind of madman are.

You know, how big our God is?

So, wow.

Talent of avoidance.

You mentioned talent avoidance.

What does that look like?

Having the talent of avoidance?

Yeah, yeah, I think, yeah.

Especially in leadership, I, I think it's critical that we, that, that we go after the hard things, but we can default into.

Let's just put that off for another day.

Put that off for another day.

And what happens is it, it builds up inside and actually the, you know, then you actually have the conversation or the confrontation and you know, someone said it this way, anticipated, you know, pain and remembered pain is way worse than actual pain.

And I think even in conversations, oh, I don't want to have this conversation, I don't want to have.

And then you have the conversation in.

It can be hard, but then it's over.

And, and you know, it either went well, it didn't go well, and you go on and, and that just plays in your head and it's not a skill that, you know, we want to nurture that, that I can avoid.

And the higher you get in leadership, you can because you order your own schedule, you order your own agenda and you say, I'll put that off, I'll put that off.

And I've, I've learned to.

Whatever I'm.

I'd least enjoy, I try to put it at the front of my list.

Get through it, get through it.

What'd you say?

Imagine pain.

And what was the.

Remembers anticipated pain and, and remembered pain.

Like the last time I had a tooth out is way worse than the actual pain.

Oh man, that's good.

That's very, very good.

Very good.

And so true, so, so true.

Soul care.

You mentioned as you also as you were unpacking David's life, how David was intentional about soul care and how he modeled that and sometimes in, in the psalms and how it's reflected in his prayers.

And then you gave a very powerful illustration of boating.

I'm not a boater.

I don't understand sailing, all those type things.

But you share a little bit about, more about that for us, Nick.

Sure.

Yeah.

I, I was on.

I've only had one sabbatical in my life.

I'm about to go on another one.

So I was one of like many of my peers.

It took me about 30 or 40 years to finally actually do a sabbatic, which I'm not proud of that let me be clear on that.

So I went on the sabbatical.

The first two weekends of the sabbatical, I took a sailboat racing course on the Boston Harbor.

And the first day out, we're on this boat and the wind is whipping, the waves are high, and it's a small boat.

There's only three of us in the boat.

And the boat is.

If you can imagine a sailboat, it's tipping on its edge.

And I'm.

I'm holding on for dear life.

And I'm thinking, this thing's going over.

This is the worst way to sp, you know, start a sabbatical.

I'm going to die in the Boston Harbor.

And the instructor looked at me and he saw the, you know, the fear, the anxiety in my eyes.

And he said, nick, I've raced these boats for 35 years.

I've never seen one flip over.

And I said, well, that record's about to change.

But then he said this, and this is the point, Aaron, he said, because there's a 2,000 pound keel underneath the water that you don't see.

You know, it's a big fin that's usually filled with lead.

And he said, no matter how much the wind blows, the wind will slide off the sail and the boat will pop up.

And literally in the boat that day, I thought, how much weight do I have in the keel?

You know, And I think when.

When we think about our own soul care and our own life, the bottom line is for all of us, anybody that's listening to this, they're either in a storm, they just came through a storm, or there's a storm coming their way.

And that's not prophetic.

That is living this side of heaven.

The question is not whether a storm's coming.

The question is, how much weight do you have in the.

And you know, I love that spurgeon, that Spurgeon quote.

You know, he.

Some of you may know this story.

You know, he, as a young preacher, he's preaching in the building, catches on fire and people are killed there.

And he said, I'll never preach again.

But then he said that great line, he said, you know, that kiss the wave that throws us on the rock of ages.

And I think that shows that the weight and the keel things are hard.

Things will come that we know, that we live that this side of heaven.

And we also know that it's in hard things that we learn deeper things about God's faithfulness and prayer.

It's not the easy times.

And so it seemed that David, because of reading his psalms, because of the.

The nature of how he lived, he seemed to Even when he repented, he seemed to have this depth of trust in God, even to the point where I day.

And I don't know if I said this in Dubai, but, you know, my mom is from West Virginia.

I think I told you that.

Yeah.

And the miner's daughter and just a sparrow of a woman, just a tiny woman, you know, But I would say that if I.

If I prayed the prayers like David prayed, my mom would think I was a heathen.

She just hit me, you know, there's no way that she would allow for me to say, God, what is your problem?

God?

Why do the righteous suffer and the wicked prevail?

But the depth of his relationship with God could.

And those psalms help me because I don't naturally pray those prayers, Aaron.

I.

I pray.

Oh, God, you're.

You're good.

God, you're wonderful.

Sure.

And.

But I pray the psalms every day, and for that very reason, I just want weight in the keel, so.

Sorry.

Good word.

In such a powerful analogy and something that I've referred to multiple times and just it really struck me and this, the reality and the importance of.

And we live in a day and age where we're seeing, you know, I don't know if it's happening more or if it's just more publicized, but you see people that are spiritual leaders that maybe the weight's not in the keel and, you know, the boat's being blown over.

And so at the same time, just the reminder of it and the importance of it and caring for our souls is.

Yeah, this was vitally important for me to hear that day and something I.

Reflected on, you know, I was.

I was struck.

I just yesterday heard a quote and it went like this, you know, because in this topic of some people, the quote was this.

Your finest hour is not as important as your final hour.

And, you know, if you're gonna go the long distance, your final hours, what matter.

We know some great, great leaders that their final hour is what we remember.

Yeah.

And it's their legacy.

And I don't want that, Aaron.

I don't want that.

And I think all of us, you know, every time another high profile leader falls, we're like, oh, Father, you know, protect me, you know, help me.

Help me to be careful.

So, yeah.

Yeah, Andy.

And just the importance of it.

And I say frequently, you know, somebody doesn't wake up one day and say, I'm just going to blow things up, you know, but it is that, you know, back to that, that reality of the cumulative effect, right back to what you Were talking about earlier about this living a practice life.

That cumulative effect really makes a difference.

And man, it can impact.

You also shared about the deep value in friendships and relationships.

And what I loved is you shared about those deep values and friendships and then longevity in ministry and the connection between the two.

I never heard somebody share about the connection between the two.

Would you be able to share more about that?

Yeah, I think I said a phrase there that, you know, friendship is a sacrament.

It's equal to prayer and communion.

And a lot of people get nervous when I say that.

But when I look at the Scriptures, you know, Jesus at one point looked at the disciples and says, now I call you friends.

That's pretty deep.

But when we look at the life of David, we have to look at Jonathan.

Even though we don't have much about Jonathan and David, there's something there that, that.

And there's a.

I could make a book recommendation would be Eugene Peterson's book on Leap Over a Wall.

He has a whole chapter on Jonathan and David and on friendship.

And in there he identifies that it was quite possibly that Jonathan had tethered David to his call and that the reason Jonathan probably didn't become, you know, bitter and just, just kill Saul immediately or didn't go back to being a shepherd or just.

Just was ruthless and forgot God was that that relationship tethered him.

And, and I remember reading that and thinking through the, the people in my life that it's significant moments spoke into my life and, and really brought, you know, clarity.

I can remember a moment on the, you know, sitting on the.

I was pastoring a church in downtown Boston.

It was very, very difficult and I didn't know how I was going forward.

I mean, we just hit that spot.

I didn't know if my marriage was going to go forward, if my children were going to be okay, if the church would.

You just, you just hit these spots.

And I sat next to a man.

His name was Dave McNeely and.

And he just spoke into my life.

And because he loved me and trusted me or, and, and cared for me, I trusted him.

His words.

A stranger could never have said what Dave McNeely said that day.

But he had been my friend for about a decade and his words were.

And I, if, if you ask a person, tell me about your life, they'll probably tell you about moments in their life.

And those moments always involve somebody else and they usually involve somebody else that you knew, you know, closely.

That speaks into your life.

Yeah.

And.

And I, I found this idea of friendship as if you don't do it, you know, you.

You wander, you wander.

And the thing about a friend is they know you well enough that even when you're in a very difficult space, they know the whole of who you are.

If someone just knows the season or the moment in your life where you feel like, I did that time, or, or you make a mistake and they, they won't define your whole life in that moment, a friend will see, hey, I know there's more in you.

I know this is what God has done.

And then there's those that just see in you, things you can't see in yourself.

And that's a treasured friend.

And we need to, you know, we need that.

And, you know, I have a.

I have a mentor that, that I meet with me, and he said.

Said to me a couple of years ago, he said, you know, I've learned.

He's 86 years old.

He said, I've learned a lot of things in my life all by myself, and none of them.

And that's what friends are for.

We'll convince ourselves of stuff.

And we need somebody that, that we trust enough to say, that's not true anyway.

That's good.

It's.

It's.

And what a true reality.

So, so, Nick, going a little bit off, off the questions I sent you here, you've shared several times throughout our time together today how people have spoken into your life.

How.

How have you translated that in the season of life you're in now and speaking into other people's life?

Any, Any guidance you mentioned there that, you know, there was a relationship and there was, you know, you were able to trust because of any other key points or words of wisdom or discernment of how you walk in and share and speak into people's lives, because it's evident people speaking into your life has made a profound impact.

Yeah, I think it's throughout your life whether we call it mentor, counselor, friend, and sometimes they all mix together.

Honestly, I don't think those categories are always easy to separate.

I tell leaders you need to.

You need to prioritize relationships, and you need to go after them.

If you're waiting for people to come to you, you know, they just won't.

And I've learned that, that even the surprising folks, I would think, how could they ever have time for me if I ask them, hey, can we just meet for lunch and I just want to hear from you.

We all want to take what we've learned, good and bad, and drop it into others.

And then every, every now and then you come across where there's a.

There's just a quick connection and there's a.

There's a wow.

I think C.S.

lewis says that the definition of a friend is when you're talking with someone and you say this phrase, oh, I thought I was the only one.

And whenever that happens, there's something that, wow, we can journey together.

We, you know, we.

And I think you have to work, you know, hard at having friends that are.

Are further ahead of you.

And, you know, the older I get, the harder that is.

But then also having friends that are, you know, in the same pace of the race right now that you can kind of look next to and they're a little bit.

And then recognize there's always people watching you.

And so oftentimes, even when I reflect on, on, like a month or, you know, my schedule, I'm looking in those three categories.

Am I spending time with someone that's.

That's older than me?

And is some of my.

Is there somebod that's in the same lap as me that I'm.

I'm listening to?

They.

They understand the, the rhythm and the cadence, the.

The way to catch my breath.

And.

And then am I really stewarding those that are watching my life?

Because.

Because you're basically lying to yourself if you don't think people are watching you.

People are watching you for good or for bad.

Yeah.

And.

And then the last thing I'd say is just on the, on the deeper friendships is.

Is, you know, friend is such a generic term.

Gordon McDonald, who's a friend of mine, and he, He.

He has this exercise that he had me do a few years ago, and I do it now all the time.

And he says, you know, we say, you know, I'll say, like, oh, Aaron, I got this friend.

I can't think of his name.

So.

So we know that there are different degrees of friendship.

And he, he said, just take a piece of paper and write.

You know, first is the closest to four or five, you know, or however your.

Your immediate, most high priority relationship.

Second is what he calls capital F, friends.

And those are those three to five, not very many you go deep with regularly.

And he would say, those are the ones that will be standing around your grave when nobody else.

That's kind of a bleak way to say it, but.

Yeah, but that you have to intentionally.

I mean, just, Just today.

You know, everybody's busy in this moment.

You know, I just came back from as, you know, mission trip, and then I'm.

I'm leaving in.

I Mean, I have three weeks of work to do in these two days, you know, these three weeks.

But I had a, you know, have, there's a, there's a couple that my wife and I meet with every month, no matter how busy we are.

So you settle the issue.

I'm always going to be busy and I'm always going to have other things, but I'm going to meet with them and, and we do that with, there's, there's three, three couples.

And I have another guy that I meet individual that, that I meet with no matter how busy I am.

You know, I always say it's not, it's not a time issue, it's a priority issue.

Oh, that's true.

We all have the same amount of time.

So I mean, we would never say, you know, when, you know, hey, somebody says, hey, can I get together with you?

You wouldn't look at them and say, actually you're not my priority.

You would.

But, but you say, I don't, I don't know if I have time.

Which is another way of saying, yeah, yeah, that's right.

You're choosing.

It's a, a, it's a tragic thing, it's a critical thing, but I, I, I would not be who I am without, you know, those three categories.

So he so just finished up with Gordon.

He says, first is, you know, family.

Then is the big F friends, the, the capital F friends that you need to, and then the small F friends, which could be dozens, you know, people that soon as you see them, you catch up quick.

Probably might see him, you know, a year or two, catch up quick.

It's great, it's nurturing, it can be life giving.

Those are smaller friends.

Then he says, there's your tribe.

You know, for us it's the assemblies.

I mean, I could just meet someone who's an assembly of God minister.

And there's a certain camaraderie, there's a certain tribe.

Yeah.

And then he said, it's your, then your neighbors, you know, people that in proximity and those are friends.

And he goes all the way down to, you know, you're on the subway and you have a 30 second engagement, that's a friend and you'll never see him again.

And then he ends with enemies.

And that exercise makes me, when I say the word friend, you know, be careful with the category.

So I, it, it's in his book called the Resilient Life.

And it's, it's a brilliant way to think about important relations with those friends that I have close to me.

Shape my life, man.

Good word and challenging word for all of us.

Nick, got two more questions for you.

You mentioned about David.

Saw.

David saw what happened to Saul when the Holy Spirit was taken from him.

Them.

And then you mentioned how this compelled David when he failed.

And then I'm going to ask a question after that about when we've seen people do good after bad.

So the first one is David saw what happened to David, saw what happened to Saul when the Holy Spirit was taken from him.

And how did this compel David when he failed?

Yeah, I love Psalm 51.

And Psalm 51 was written after David's confronted by Nathan having committed both adultery and murder.

That's pretty.

Pretty bad stuff.

I mean, if you're stacking it, yeah, that's bad.

Yeah.

And yet, you know, to the point of it's not that, you know, we do bad.

It's do we do good after we do bad?

We see multiple times in David's life where he was quick to repent.

It was.

And that's what we see in Psalm 51.

But when I read Psalm 51, I am struck by that point where he says, take not your Holy Spirit from me.

And I have to believe in his mind, he thought of.

Of Saul, who, once that spirit was lifted from him, he.

He lost his mind, he lost his life.

And.

And somehow that.

That image, I'm guessing, and I could be wrong, so.

So caused him to run to the feet of God.

Yeah, I can't live without your spirit.

I think the same for us.

You know, we.

We need.

We want to be, you know, close.

We want.

We.

We don't want to cancel out the connection with the Spirit of God in us.

And repentance is the only thing that does that.

You know, we wouldn't be talking about David if he didn't repent.

We'd be talking about a person in history that killed a lot of people and did a lot of things.

Yeah.

And power in bad parenting and dysfunctional family.

I mean, it just goes on.

And I'm a David, but at the same time, he was quick to repent.

He was a lover after God, and he was a lover after God's people.

And so I, I do think that, you know, I, as, you know, the part of my role, you know, we oversee about 600 mission or pastors and ministers, and, and sometimes there's.

There's those that go off track and discipline and care and restoration and.

And I will always say that line, Aaron, I'd say you did bad.

We all know that either you got caught or you confessed.

The question that's on the table today is not did you do bad?

It's will you do good after you do bad?

And I think that's the path of redemption.

Even going back to our initial question, if I'm in the business world and I have franchises and somebody, you know, whatever steals $30,000, I'm.

I'm firing them right in.

In our work, someone misappropriates funds, maybe makes a bad relationship decision, they may need to be pulled away from their assignment, but they're not canceled for life.

Because if we believe the gospel is good for us, it has to be good for those that we pastor and oversee.

Wow.

And so in that case, if, and I'll say to people, Aaron, I'll say, you know, at the end of the conversation, did you lie to me?

Everything you've told me, now's the time to tell me if you lied to me.

And then, and, and I, because I said, no matter how bad it is, we're redempted people.

And if you'll do right, we can see your marriage restored, we can see your personal health in store restored.

We can see those things.

But you have to do right after you've done general.

And I think it's probably true in parenting, it's probably true in marriage.

Probably.

It's just my context right now.

As among ministers.

Yeah.

And so Nick, how do we walk?

But how can friends not abandon those that have baby made those decisions?

I think it's.

You mentioned we're busy.

It's a fast paced world we live in and it seems like abandoning or canceling seems to be more common than walking, walking with people in those difficult seasons.

Any, any wisdom on that?

That?

Well, I, and again, our context, ministers and missionaries, it's, it's a calling, it's a life calling.

Sometimes the assignments get disqualified because of actions.

And I, I must back again.

I, I think this, this brings us keeps coming back to the transformational leader versus transactional leader.

If I'm just building the metrics of how many churches can we plant, can we get into pews?

You know, whatever the metric, I'm going to leave people on the side because people are going to fail.

You know, I have ministers in my network that have been dismissed without the opportunity of being restored.

They're still my brothers and I still reach out to them and walk with because they're not professional ministry colleagues.

Does that change?

They're still my brothers.

Yeah.

And that's hard.

That's.

I'm, I'M too busy for that, but I just have to believe.

And I always avoid saying this phrase, I can't believe I'm about to say it, but I just think it was what Jesus would do.

And I don't do it well all the time.

But I refuse, I refuse to allow a moment in time or an assignment that has gone very, very bad.

All of us, if we are in ministry long enough, we're going to have assignments that go bad.

I refuse to let that define the person as a child of God and a minister with a calling on their life.

And trust me, I, I, I can look back on just my short time in a network role of, you know, almost 20 years, and, and there's moments that had I taken a different route, you know, they wouldn't be in ministry and they probably wouldn't be following Jesus.

And not that it's on me, it's just I'm part of a bigger picture that's taking an init to, to your question.

How do we not abandon people?

Because it's not, it's, you know, part of the reason we don't is our own ego.

Wow.

We had a person on our staff who did something really bad.

What kind of a leader am I?

It just takes an incredible amount of humility to really walk with people when they fail.

Yeah.

And, but it's worth it.

It's worth it.

One of the books that Gordon McDonnell wrote is restoring your broken life.

And, and it's one of the best books that just say, you know, sometimes on the other side of the worst season of your life is your greatest effectiveness.

But if the worst season of your life disqualifies you, you'll never know what God's going to do.

We're redemptive people.

I'm not backing away from that.

Good word, Passionate about that, Aaron.

I'm sorry.

That's what that is.

Great.

Is excellent.

Nick, you might be thinking, if Aaron was a good podcast host, he would ask me this question.

Is there a question I should have asked you today on transformative leadership?

You know, I, I mean, no, no immediate question comes to mind.

I think, I think it's been a, just a good path.

I, I think that it, you know, what we're in, we're in a season in life that most of the time we talk about leadership, it comes down to, have we addressed spiritual abuse?

Have we addressed narcissism and those sort of things?

And, and frankly, I think those are not a new problem.

Yeah, but they are an existing problem.

And, and what I want to say is we're in the front end of those things.

And, you know, I'm.

I'm working with our team on, you know, in terms of spiritual abuse of a, you know, a role of a leader.

Just like, you know, if a leader's caught, you know, you know, participating in pornography.

It used to be if you just got a word, then they would be disqualified for ministry.

Now we have a whole scale of, you know, five or six differently.

Do they make a mistake all the way?

Do they have an habitual problem?

And same with spiritual abuse.

Did you have an emotional outbreak that you said something you should have, or are you a narcissist and you're just.

Just destroying people because of your ego?

That's a wide spectrum, but we don't have the wide spectrum right now.

We just have one statement, spiritual abuse.

So I don't have a lot of answers, but I would love us to always, as spiritual leaders and transformational leaders, let's work the problem together and not.

Not throw people aside or let people get away from things and say, God help us in this season.

So I know I probably went on a hot button issue, but good challenging on my desk a lot, my friend.

I'm sure it is.

I'm sure it is.

Nick, will you pray for us?

I sure will.

Father, it is humbling to think that God chooses to use us.

It.

It would be so simple to just jump over us and reach a city, reach a country, reach a people group.

But, Father, you.

You choose to use our hearts and our minds and our hands and our passion.

And Father, I do pray.

I pray for Aaron and I also pray for those around the world, you know, serving as global workers, that you would.

You would draw them to yourselves.

And even as they lead and as they break new ground and as they have overwhelming physical challenge, temptations, relational challenges, God that they would see you are bigger than their giant, and I trust you for that.

So I pray your strength, your wisdom and clarity in their life and trust you for it.

In Jesus name, amen.