What happens on an expedition if the van breaks down? Or the rain doesn't stop for two days?in this second podcast Ana Porzecanski asks me what the equivalent questions are for a virtual expedition and how prepared we are for them. And then Mona Sinha asks the even more killer question. What happens if our group of 20 women setting off on our virtual expedition “ to find an approach to leadership that resonates with women” stay all polite with each other and never really push each other?

Find out more about how the expedition will actually work and Meet two more members of the expedition.

Julia Middleton

Welcome to the second podcast of the Women Emerging expedition. First, important to say thank you, thank you, thank you so much for all your lovely messages over the last week, messages of encouragement and inspiration. And we're all even more determined to make the expedition utterly glorious. So that we find an approach to leadership that resonates with women, so that more women say, 'if that's leadership, I'm in'. This podcast is really to try and explain a little bit of our thinking on how the actual expedition will work over the next few months, both how it'll work over the next few months as an expedition, and then how it'll work in the months after the expedition is complete, to share the knowledge to disseminate the information so that as many women as possible can adopt an approach to leadership that resonates with women.

Julia Middleton

And those partners will be following the expedition and finding out what's going on through I hope, this podcast, which will go out weekly, and keep everybody informed, but they'll also be putting in their own ideas, puttin in their own journey, and experiences, their own stories, and doing that on a closed LinkedIn group throwing in either emails or audio messages, so that we can either read out their emails or or listen to their audio messages on the podcast as we go. Because that will inform the members, thinking constantly and widen their horizons, broaden their thinking. So the core of the expedition, the core of the collection that will come out of the expedition. And some of you have asked, how's it being funded, the expedition itself is not an expensive proposition. We're working virtually, we're working through social media, there's a small team working on it with me, and they are fantastic, deeply committed. And of course, paid. I do it as a volunteer. So the costs are not too considerable. But the costs that are are being paid for by a group of about 10 Women who are donors in different parts of the world, all contributing relatively small amounts of money that together will pay for the expedition and make sure that that we can go at the right pace, and with the right independence, because there are women who simply passionately believe in this and want to see it happen.

Julia Middleton

Then the collection, the dissemination phase, as the ideas appear, sometimes the sources of funds appear, and I'm quite sure we'll find many, many more sources of funds, because there are so many people who want to see an approach to leadership that resonates with women, and they want to see more women saying if that's leadership I'm in. So as the collection unfolds, we will find sources of funds to pay for it. But it's a relatively simple proposition, a relatively simple journey. I keep on saying to the members of the expedition, it's a relatively small ask, but it's very, very, very big ambition, and we must involve as many women as we possibly can in it.

Julia Middleton

So how will the expedition work? At the end of May, we set off, all 20 women. You know the basics — 20 women over seven months, and each month, we will meet over a weekend, virtually, for a few hours together to test each other's ideas, to push each other, to question each other to say "You sure about that? Have you thought about this? What about turning it on its head? Is that a brilliant idea?" So we'll meet once a month to do that. And there'll be great power in that because the group of 20 women themselves are extraordinary, and can push each other very, very effectively. Between the meetings, each of the women will probably go out on their own, maybe they'll pair up pretty well on their own, and go and virtually meet women, and talk to them about an approach to leadership that resonates with women.

Julia Middleton

So for example, on a monthly call, I might say I'm absolutely fascinated in how women's cooperatives work in Colombia. I've heard a lot about them, I would really love to understand them more. And one of the other members on that call might say I know somebody that you should speak to, and would make that introduction. And therefore between that call and the next one, I'd go out and talk to the woman in Colombia about what she's learned about leadership, the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Julia Middleton

Julia Middleton

Lots of people are coming to me saying can we incorporate this thinking into the leadership programmes that we're running? And the answer is yes, of course. Yes, of course, this is going to be open source. Anybody can use it. And if it's helpful to help you design that curriculum, we're more than happy to do that, even more happy to do that as a there's a group of young women environmentalists who said can we create an online programme for young women environmentalists who want to know more about leadership and an approach to leadership that resonates with women.

Julia Middleton

There are lots of women who are going to do TED talks, there are lots of women who are going to do all kinds of different projects, one of the women on the expedition is passionate about the issue of involving women in innovation around the world. And, and she's already cooking up a fantastic project to to engage women in innovation, which is so badly needed, we can't leave it all to men. So as we go, and as the expedition unfolds, more and more of these ideas for the collection phase, the dissemination phase are coming through. And they are immensely exciting to be part of. So the people involved in this, the sort of the middle circle, is without doubt, the 20 women who are on the expedition themselves, the members of the expedition, and then there's a sort of a circle around them, of what we're calling guides to the expedition, women who know a lot about leadership, like the woman who runs a collective cooperative in in Colombia who will share her knowledge, she would be a guide, because she was sharing her knowledge. And we've identified lots and lots of potential guides and women who've been volunteering as guides, who will share their insights with the members as they proceed. And then there's an even wider group, the really important group, the important group of partners in the expedition, women all over the world who've got the real experience, they've got the stories of leadership, they've got the ideas around leadership, they've got the anger around leadership and the burn to see an approach to leadership that resonates with women come forth.

Julia Middleton

Last week, I interviewed Vidya and Hinemoa, two members of the expedition. This week, I'm going to interview two more members of the expedition, Anna and Monda. Anna, who is director of the Centre for Biodiversity and Conservation at the American Museum of Natural History. Long title, incredibly important role. If you look at Anna's profile, there's a picture of a woman with binoculars around her neck. She's somebody who knows a lot about expeditions. So last week, having spoken to Hinemoa about her expedition, and the expedition she went on to Antarctica, this week, I'm going to talk to Anna. I was going to ask her a lot of questions about the secrets of good expeditions. And after Anna, a conversation with Mona. Mona's background is corporate. She was at Morgan Stanley then at Unilever, but her heart has always really been in women's empowerment. And the list of extraordinary organisations and campaigns that she has led and been part of is inspiring. She's also agreed to be the curator of the expedition collection. And so I wanted to talk to her a bit about the collection. But let's go first to Anna.

Julia Middleton

I've been so looking forward to talking to you about expeditions, because you went on an expedition to Cuba, am I right?

Anna

Anna

Julia Middleton

That's really interesting, because I didn't know you'd been on three. Did you get your frame of mind more or less right from each expedition? Effectively, what frame of mind do you have to be in as you set off on an expedition if it's going to be really successful?

Anna

Well, I think that there are some really key things. I think curiosity is the first one, you have to be curious. And you have to have a willingness to be taken out of your comfort zone and go into unknown contexts and situations. And that goes along with curiosity, I think. I think there's other two essential things that you have to have for a successful expedition. You have to have some idea of where you're going, right? And how you think you'll get there. So you call that a map. But I think it's really much more than a topo map or a road map. It's almost a mental map as well. But you do need some some idea of where you're going, how are you going to get there, and you need a team you can trust. You need trust in terms of safety, you know, folks that you can rely on that are accountable, and that bring the relevant expertise and skills and mindset. So those are key things you need to have for a successful expedition, curiosity being a really key one.

Julia Middleton

Curiosity and almost an unconscious of it at the moment is that people sort of say, well, what is the proposition you're going to test? And every time I get drawn into that conversation, I realise that you go too quickly to then sort of almost deciding what the too much of the outcome?

Anna

Oh, yeah, you have to, you have to be willing to learn, right? I think you have to be willing to do a number of things. You have to be willing to plan. That's the first thing and that means planning for the basic things that a team needs to work together and in perhaps unexpected conditions. You have to have a fuel, whatever that means. You have to have food. And you also have to plan for fun, actually. So for example, you have, you know, sometimes people bring musical instruments on expeditions, because there are times when you're going to be stuck under the rain in a tent for hours, or days. And people need that. They need other ways to connect and be creative. And so planning is really important.

Julia Middleton

Two of the members of the expedition were just talking to each other a couple of days ago, and it was about a concept. And they then started sharing music for it. And they both promised me that they're going to sing together, this music. That relationship, it was so much coming alive. And when they were talking about music. So I hear what you say big time. What else what else?

Anna

That makes me really excited, because in addition to being a scientist, I am also into music. And for 10 years, I sang semi-professionally. So there's a whole other part of me that, you know, looks forward to connecting in unexpected ways. So yeah, you need to plan. Another key thing is you need to communicate. And I think that's really important for the leader of an expedition to be a good communicator and communicate clearly and in a way that everyone can understand and predictably, in timely ways, and create a good environment — a good culture, almost, for communication. I think the other key thing to do in an expedition is to learn and document what you're learning, and you really have to because otherwise, you know, it eventually evaporates, it disappears with you. And so in science, we have really detailed and codified ways of documenting everything in an expedition from field journals, I actually have my field journal right here, from my trip to Africa, which has all kinds of musings. It's a personal journal. Do you want to see a page? It also includes drawings, you know, and reflections in general, it's a personal thing. But it is valuable. And it also has observations and then you have other ways of documenting. You have detailed logs, photography, sampling, all kinds of things. And, you know, the expeditions I went on gave me some really important insights as well about myself. That's why I think it's so important to document. You document what you're learning, you learn about yourself, you learn about the others in the expedition with you, and you learn about the system you're embedding yourself in.

Julia Middleton

And the truth is, listening to you, you can't fail, but to think, well, you know, all of life is an expedition and the things you've just said are as true to life as to a specific expedition. And does it get tough sometimes?

Anna

Oh, yeah.

Julia Middleton

Is there a moment when everybody's arguing? And actually, the last thing you should do is to stop them from arguing, you should let them argue.

Anna

Well, you do need some level of harmony to work together in an expedition. And yet you need robust communication. And that can involve I think, arguments. Yeah, I'm trying to think of a situation where that may have...

Julia Middleton

If you think of the different cultures. The women coming on the expedition from very different cultures. I mean, some incredibly direct and go charging into a fight like I do and sort of get in there and break eggshells in a way that sometimes is unhelpful very often. And then other people who are much more quiet, and then other people who will do everything within their power to prevent any heated discussions, which means that nothing really ever happens. So it's not going to be that easy. Is it?

Anna

No, that's right, I think. Yeah, that's right. That's why I think good communication and facilitation is important, because you're going to encounter the unexpected, you know. In an expedition, you may find that your vehicle breaks down in the middle of nowhere, you may find that it rains for two days straight and you can't set up camp, what do you do, then? You may find that suddenly a permit is revoked and you can't go through a certain area. So these are all examples that we can explore. Like, what does that mean for this expedition?

Julia Middleton

Or even that, that some people you know, have different levels of stamina that show up in different ways and different times. So it's gonna have to be very forgiving, especially because it's remote. This is not going to be an easy thing to do. Talking to you has made me extremely nervous.

Julia Middleton

Nervous is an understatement, I'm left thinking after speaking to Anna about what the unexpected might look like on a virtual expedition. What a vehicle breaking down or rains lasting two days or permits being revoked — How does that translate into a virtual expedition? I'm sure the unexpected is going to hit us, sure as anything. But thinking hard about that.

Julia Middleton

Julia Middleton

Mona, Anna's talked to us about how the actual expedition works. But of course, the really important thing is the collection that comes out of the expedition. And I love you for saying that you'll be the curator with this. Because it's so important, isn't it? Sometimes you do something, and it's wonderful for the people who actually own it. But but then you miss and you don't think enough about what's gonna actually happen at the end and what's the result, what's going to be the outcome of the expedition and the collection that comes out of it. I thought we could play a game. It's hopes and fears game. Okay. So as the curator of this collection that comes out of the expedition, what's your greatest hope or fear? Start with the fear

Mona

So my biggest fear, honestly, Julia, is that for centuries, the patriarchy has defined what leadership means. And the dominant narrative here has centred around a system of ranking, which women don't really like. But it's very hard to push that away, and, you know, sit in a circle, and listen and cocreate and find meaning, and jump on new ideas. And my biggest fear is that we won't be open enough, or interesting enough to actually delve into that place of discomfort because it can be quite uncomfortable to be pushed around and have your ideas probed and poked at and so forth. But that's where the biggest creativity emerges from. So that's a fear. But then on the other end, the hope is that we can move from the singular voice to something that we can co create together and community. What's yours Julia?

Julia Middleton

In terms of the collection, I hear what you say on the patriarchy. And also the thing about patriarchists is that they're always so certain. They've always got sort of simple answers for everything. And there's a piece of me that's worried that we push away one sort of certainty about leadership, and we almost, through the expedition and resulting collection, create some illusion of a new certainty. And, and to me, leadership isn't certain. There aren't any absolutes about leadership, which is why I love the concept of collection, and of curating it. Curator is is the word that you introduced me to. I think it's a beautiful word. Because it's sort of saying, there are many ways of doing this. There are many ways of expressing this. So my fear is that we we sort of fall into the trap of an absolute when there needs to be much more fluidity so that different women in different parts of the world can take different things from it. Does any of that make sense? Or does it just make me sound like I'm being wobbly?

Mona

Well, I think in this case, wobbly is pretty good. Because we really don't know what the new reality needs to look like. We have a hunch. We all have different lived experiences. And the beauty of curating this is that we bring all these different experiences and voices into this circle of trust. And it's going to change as time changes and circumstances change. But the beauty of it is the fluidity, it is the ability to adapt, which we as women are very good at doing.

Julia Middleton

My hope is the same thing. I just hope that lots of women all over the world say 'if that's what leadership is, count me in', and that we find ways of expressing leadership. To me it's a sort of prism, that we find a prism but then all the different women involved in it find a different way into the prism. Because we're not going to get one definition. There's women from all over the world on this. So the differences, the cultural differences are going to be enormous.

Mona

And there's so much learning. I love that notion of a prism, because there's so many angles to it, right? And each of us comes to this from our own lived experience, and also the experience of our communities and people that we interact with. So the prism is a wonderful metaphor, because, as you know, rainbows come from prisms, you know, all the inputs feed in, and then what comes out is so beautiful, and so brilliant, and it's seven different streams of colours. So we can imagine that we all input, our own ideas, our own fears, our own hopes into this prism. And then what comes out is different narratives and different streams of thought that people all over the world can identify with. And maybe you identify with all of them, and maybe you identify with one of them. But that's great. It's a new vision and new way of thinking.

Julia Middleton

Your rainbow is the most beautiful analogy. Mona there's a reason why you are the curator. Does the rainbow only have seven colours? Or do they all blend into each other as well?

Mona

Actually, you're right. It has seven main colours, but they do blend into each other because it forms the entire colour spectrum of the world.

Julia Middleton

It's beautiful. Okay, let's go back to basics. Tell me why, because you and I were strangers when we first met.

Mona

Seems crazy, right?

Julia Middleton

It seems completely crazy. But why did you decide to back this crazy idea with this stranger?

Mona

You know, I was curious. Everyone was asking me what's the new normal? What are we going to look like when we come out of this two years of being in isolation, and I had my ideas, but I didn't want to put just my ideas out there. I wanted to do it with other people who were thoughtful, who had bold ideas who were willing to take some risk. And I think when I met you, I realised that you were one of those people. And I think we got along right away, and we formed an instant bond. And I think that's what makes this so exciting is I'm looking forward to meeting everybody who's going to join us in this expedition, because some people I know and some people I have never met before. But I know at the end of it, we're all going to be very happy and quite connected in our vision for what we see the world going forward.

Julia Middleton

I wonder if that's one of the pillars of an approach to leadership that resonates with women. It's the ability to sort of trust a hunch on another person.

Mona

Well, we have very strong intuition, right? I mean, and we need to listen to that inner voice which guides us so well. I think what women do well, too, is we center curiosity through radical listening, because I listened to you and heard some of what you were saying and your big ideas, right? I was able to absorb that and think about it and say, Yes, that's exciting. Let's do this together. And I think as women as well, we look at the big picture much more than we look at ourselves as individuals, because we create families, we have communities, we have people around us that we love and trust. And that ability to look at a bigger picture is very important because it includes everybody around us. So by instinct, and by intuition, we are inclusive human beings. And even when it's counter narrative or counter culture, we tend to lead by example. So all of those things put us in a position where we are very well suited to talk about what's next for the world. I also think that we are much more mindful of helping to make people feel like they belong to a community or align around a set of values. So we've seen in the world how feminist principles of collaboration and empathy and intuition, you know, liberating people from false stereotypes, these things work, these things work in a way that were never really given the importance, nor the status, if you will, that the very sort of male driven ambitious principles were. There's nothing wrong with being ambitious, but maybe we can redefine what that means. So as long as we communicate this far and wide, I'm confident that we're onto something Julia.

Julia Middleton

Together. Thank you very, very, very, very, very much for this.

Julia Middleton

Anna and Mona, I hope, have brought the expedition a bit more live to you. I hope you now really have quite a good feel for what it's going to actually do and how it's going to work.

Julia Middleton

So as we come to the end of this second podcasts, thank you all for your thoughts after the first podcast. Keep them coming for the second one. We're still learning. We're still learning hard. Next week, I promise to tell you a bit more about the actual members of the expedition, who they all are, who this mysterious group of 20 women really are. And I'm looking forward to interviewing Yvette who she herself is a member of the expedition, but she herself has taken on the task of talking to every single one of the other members and finding out a little bit more about them, so it'll be good to talk to her.

Julia Middleton

The sun continues here. It's lovely, lovely, lovely. The daffodils are out. The spring is coming. And the birds are singing. I thought I'd record them a bit for you. Just at the end of this podcast. Look forward to the next one.

Sindhuri Nandhakumar

Thank you for listening. Please subscribe to the podcast. Your voice is crucial to the expedition success and we would love you to become a partner to the expedition. All you have to do is join the Women Emerging LinkedIn group where you can share your own thoughts and perspectives on the expedition and today's podcast.