Fr. Steve and Beth examine each of the cardinal and theological virtues and how we can use them in the Church and culture we have today.

Show notes:

(0:21) Fr. Steve and Beth catch up and reflect on the nice spring weather we’ve been having and what they’re enjoying about May so far.

(7:06) Fr. Steve introduces this month’s topic of virtues, especially those that God is calling for out of this present moment. He talks about the four cardinal virtues of prudence, justice, temperance, and courage, as well as the theological virtues of faith, hope, and charity.

(9:25) Beth talks about prudence and the flexibility we need to change our approaches and processes for the Church that we have, which may not be the same as the one we used to know. Fr. Steve offers the example of campus ministry he’s been doing lately, sharing that both the tools and the language used to communicate with college-aged students are so different from what they used to be, and Beth remembers feeling this way in youth ministry as well.

(13:45) The two discuss justice as a very necessary willingness to talk about Jesus and the right people have to know him. Beth brings in an example from Penn Jillette to outline that right, and Fr. Steve shares some reflection he’s done on the seventh commandment, “you shall not steal,” as it relates to evangelization.

(17:25) They talk about courage; Fr. Steve relates it similarly to the conversation on justice, saying that we have to be willing to engage in the difficult conversations about the Church. The answer to so many of our questions lie in the heart of Jesus, so we have to have the courage to enter into these conversations without the perfect assurance of our own satisfactory answer. Beth adds, saying that she thinks of this courage as the fortitude to live differently in the midst of hostility.

(20:54) Beth defines temperance and gives her experience of it being childlike trust, in a way that we aren’t relying on earthly things to solve our problems but rather we’re fully trusting the Lord with them. Fr. Steve echoes a similar sentiment, also adding that a large part of temperance in the year 2021 is moderating our use of social media.

(27:37) Fr. Steve then moves the conversation to the theological virtues, which are not things that we earn, but things that God freely gives us out of love. He begins with faith, with the virtue being confidence in the whole Gospel, how it all fits together, and modeling our lives after it. Beth adds with her reflection on confidence in the Holy Spirit and how we are part of God’s work on earth.

(33:59) Beth introduces and defines the virtue of hope. She shares a story from her travels that exemplifies how hope should be lived out today — by dwelling on the good and always thinking of heaven. Fr. Steve echoes this idea and adds that we find who the saints in our lives are and how we can turn to them as examples of hope.

(38:33) They move to charity, for which Beth offers the Catechism’s definition of loving God above all things and loving our neighbor as ourselves. Beth begins the conversation on charity by expressing the deep personal intimacy each of us needs with God. Fr. Steve adds the importance of sacrificial love, especially for those who don’t believe in God and being willing to be inconvenienced or overlook certain things as a way to bear witness to the Gospel in our lives.

(45:13) Fr. Steve and Beth answer audience questions. They discuss how people can grow in virtue and their favorite devotions within the Church. They do a quick cheese quiz for National American Cheese Month and end with personal takeaways from today’s conversation.

Links from this episode:

From Christendom to Apostolic Mission

Center for Church Management

Gaudium et Spes

Monk Manual

Ignatian Spiritual Exercises

Fr. Steve:

Welcome to the latest episode of Encounter Grow Witness, the world's best podcast in the history of podcasts for ever, and ever, and ever amen, with the real rock star Beth Spizarny. Beth, how are you doing?

Beth:

I'm doing well. How are you doing?

Fr. Steve:

I am good. I always feel like I bring like a morning talk show energy version to this, sometimes.

Beth:

That's right. It's so cheerful and fun.

Fr. Steve:

It feels cheerful and fun, but I am cheerful and fun because we have some beautiful weather these days, and I'm just grateful for spring finally being here and kind of on the cusp of summer and all the blessings that that brings. So yeah, just, I'm really grateful for that. I live at Sacred Heart Seminary and it's a bit of a sweet spot, I'll say, because outside of my window is a bank of air conditioners for the whole seminary. And so it's the sweet spot of being able to open the windows and the air conditioning's not on yet, so I don't hear that whole noise and I can have the fresh air. So I love this time of year. Anything going on in your life that you're grateful for these days Beth?

Beth:

Yeah. I finished my grad class for the semester with just — I feel like everyone in our house has taken just a deep breath, just a deep breath, which we're pretty excited about.

Fr. Steve:

That's awesome. That's sweet. Well happy May.

Beth:

Yes, happy May. And that's really the most important reason that I'm excited and as you're well aware and I'm sure all of our listeners are aware, we are celebrating American Cheese Month.

Fr. Steve:

American Cheese Month.

Beth:

Fr. Steve:

Well, Beth, is this celebrating cheese in America or the specific kind of artificial variety of cheese called American cheese?

Beth:

It's an excellent question. And since I buffed up on my knowledge about cheese just today, I can tell you that it is actually the Cheesemakers of Americas. They want people to know that they don't just make the waxy American cheese. They do in fact, make other cheeses.

Fr. Steve:

Like Velveeta, cottage cheese, and things like that.

Beth:

Their branding is still working on expanding our knowledge of the other kinds of cheeses. So, that Velveeta came to mind second for you, probably devastating. Do you have a favorite cheese?

Fr. Steve:

Ooh, I like yeah, I do. I like blue cheese. I think blue cheese is right up there with, like, bread and just like, marvels of like how we've taken something and turned it into something incredible. So the way we do that with liquor we take something and like turn it into this incredible drink. So it makes me sound like an alcoholic a little bit, but I don't mean it to be that way. But the way we take something that is not in its normal state and kind of let the aging process alter it. I think blue cheese is one of the great marvels of culinary stuff.

Beth:

So that's so poetic. What great morals.

Fr. Steve:

Of stuff.

Beth:

I like blue cheese, but do you eat it just plain? Blue cheese on a cracker?

Fr. Steve:

I think I could, but I don't because it's not socially acceptable yet. Wow.

Beth:

Well, American Cheese Month could change that, Father Steve. Let's get to it.

Fr. Steve:

Do you have a favorite cheese?

Beth:

Yeah, it is a great kind of — it looks like mozzarella, but you can grill it and it doesn't melt. So a lot of vegetarians, which I'm not, eat it because it's sort of a great meat substitute, it's salty and fantastic — halloumi. It's very expensive though. So.

Speaker 2:

Is it H—

Beth:

H A L L O U M I at your local Whole Foods or other fancy cheese store.

Fr. Steve:

Is there a cheese you don't like?

Beth:

A cheese I don't like, I mean, American cheese. I'm a little embarrassed. You know, I went to Germany and they asked me about American cheese, were like, you really make American cheese. And I felt bad, you know, I don't want to really crap on our cheese, but then at the same time, I didn't own it either. I didn't. No, not, no, not in Munich.

Fr. Steve:

Yeah. You know, there are people who have strong Swiss cheese takes, which I had not known as a kid. That was just part of the regular cheese repertoire of our family, Swiss cheese or American. So it was kind of like-

Beth:

What about cottage cheese, Father Steve? Do you think cottage cheese is a cheese?

Fr. Steve:

I don't know.

Beth:

I'm going to have to take a stand because I have strong opinion here.

Fr. Steve:

I am going to say yes. Cottage cheese is in the cheese family.

Beth:

Well, you're very wrong and I'm embarrassed for you.

Fr. Steve:

Do you? Ron is telling us our awesome producer Ron is telling us absolutely not.

Beth:

That is not a cheese. It's not, it just, it doesn't resemble cheese. It's not — it doesn't behave like any other cheese. I don't think so. If it showed up for the reunion with the rest of the cheeses, I don't think so. They wouldn't let him in.

Fr. Steve:

Wow. Wow. We are canceling cottage cheese.

Beth:

Oh dear.

Beth:

You know, one of my favorite cheese stories — if we can have cheese stories — I had a friend when I entered seminary, a guy I met was a seminarian from Madison, Wisconsin, and he introduced me to the wonderful world of cheese curds, which were phenomenal. I mean, deep frying anything usually makes it phenomenal, but cheese curds were this whole new world to me. And yeah.

Beth:

Now would you, would you fry cottage cheese? Do you think that would be a good time? You love cottage cheese, so you didn't have to.

Fr. Steve:

I'm getting the wrath here of being the cottage cheese apologist. I don't know enough about it. Like, is it actually not cheese? Is it this in-between dairy product?

Beth:

No. No. I mean, you can, you should make a case that she's in the title. That's noteworthy..

Fr. Steve:

Is it more or less cheese than Velveeta or like movie theater nacho squirt cheese.

Beth:

That's also a very, very good argument. Yeah. If Velveeta is claiming to be cheese, I don't know. I don't know. It gets a little fuzzy. Maybe we should move on to something more clear, like virtue.

Fr. Steve:

Well, let's end this cheesy conversation and talk about virtue. Oh, I just did that for the apology you would make to the audience there. But we were talking about topics for this month and I think we both agreed on this being a good topic. So we're talking about virtues, right?

Beth:

Yes, yes. Virtues and virtues for today. Like in this moment that we find ourselves in, what are the virtues that we sense God calling out of us and of the Church? Yeah.

Fr. Steve:

Yeah. I think of this — and I think I shared with you, like, this has been a book rumbling around in my mind at some point to unite these ideas of what does it mean to be a joyful missionary disciple, which we in Detroit are really kind of taking on as the call that Pope Francis has given us and I think is very consonant with Pope Benedict, John Paul, Paul VI, kind of this whole trajectory of evangelization, the New Evangelization. What does it mean to be a joyful missionary disciple? And then also realizing that we're living in a time that presents a unique set of challenges and that you know, there's this wonderful little book called From Christendom to Apostolic Age. I think we've both read it. And it talks about this paradigm shift that we're not in a society that rewards or holds up a Christian ethos and way of life.

Fr. Steve:

So there's a way right now that particular virtues are needed that maybe a generation ago weren't as important. Not that they're, you know, like, they were bad, but they just weren't especially relevant or needed for that moment. So, yeah. So I love how you frame this — cause we were able to talk a little bit about it and you framed it, okay: how do we live out the cardinal virtues, the four — prudence justice, courage and temperance, and then how do we live out the theological virtues of faith, hope and charity? So why don't we just kind of dive in and talk about these and see kind of our own thoughts on each of these what's needed here now? Anything else in the introduction here, Beth, before we jump in?

Beth:

No, I think that sounds good. Yeah. I think that sounds good. I you know, I was just thinking about each of each of these different virtues and really taking a look at well, how does the Catechism define these? And then like looking at that and kind of listening with the Holy Spirit, what is needed. So, I mean just taking prudence, right? Prudence disposes the practical reasons — I'm quoting here, this isn't my everyday speak, from the Catechism —prudence disposes the practical reason to discern in every circumstance our true good, and to choose the right means for achieving it. So what came to mind for you when you were thinking about prudence?

Fr. Steve:

Well we talked about it, and I have the same one as you, so I want you to lead because, because I kind of ripped off your idea here 'cause I liked it so much. So I know you talked about flexibility as being so important right now. Tell us a bit about that.

Beth:

Yeah, I think flexibility, we just need it. There was a great article on Detroit Catholic that quoted Matthew Manion who's the Director for the Center for Church Management at Villanova University. Anyway, he said this quote, that's still echoing around my mind. He said, "We are built for a Church that no longer exists." And I just think like the way that, like, if that's a rock and you throw it in the lake, the ripples of that statement are pretty far reaching. If we're built for a Church that no longer exists, then we are probably doing things that are no longer having the fruit that we would expect them to have.

Fr. Steve:

Yeah. And we were probably trained to do things that it's not helpful to kind of just continue down that path. So I think the flexibility is so important, you know, it's not exactly the same, but Unleash the Gospel talks about a spirit of innovation. And I think about this kind of in the same bucket of flexibility that, you know, a lot of the things we've learned are the great practices. Maybe we look back on when we grew up or things that affected us or future generations that were successful might not be the most successful things for mission these days. And you know, I've gotten to spend a good chunk of this year doing some campus ministry on Wayne State and U of M Dearborn as we're in a transition there, and there's so much terminology that I don't know for college age students. And it's just funny, both the tools they use to communicate have been new to me as well as kind of the language and, and some of the, yeah, some of the interactions, it's been a big learning curve. And I know for me, it's made me need to be flexible in how I share the Gospel with them or even just kind of build relationship with them.

Beth:

I'm sure. I remember feeling that same way in youth ministry. I kept thinking, well, let me build this and then I can use it again. And I just found I could never use something again, because a year later the teens are completely different and two years later they're like, I mean a gener- I mean, there's just, the differences are huge. So what would it take for us to be generous and looking at new methods and being brave and innovative and flexible, that could be the prudence we need.

Fr. Steve:

And what I like about flexibility is it's kind of innovation in the moment too. Sometimes I think of innovation as like a lab. I go off to the lab and I come up with a new idea or, you know, like Elon Musk is the one I think, you know, some people can't stand him, but I think there's so many things he has done or so many approaches he has brought that just kind of a totally different way of thinking about things. But flexibility is in the moment, right? Like this isn't working here and now, what do I need to shift or change? And I have to obviously have my feet firmly rooted in the Church, in her Tradition, capital T, knowing the scriptures, we've talked about before, inn order to be flexible in the, in the areas where it's going to be important to do that. So prudence, we both agree, flexibility. Justice, I ripped off yours again. I'm not going to do it for all of them, but these first two, I liked so much that I'm just going to rip off yours and we'll talk about it together. So justice, you talked about a willingness to speak about Jesus.

Beth:

Yeah. I think it's a matter of justice. And I think a lot of times we don't think of evangelization, excuse me, as a matter of justice, but I think people have a right. People have a right to hear, they have a right to know about who they are and what Christ did for them. They have a right to know. I'm sure people have heard it, but the Penn Jillette, the magician is an atheist. And he said, famously, I've always said that I don't respect people who don't proselytize. He says, I don't respect that at all. If you believe that there's a heaven and a hell and people could be going to hell or not getting eternal life, and you think that it's not really worth telling them this because it could make it socially awkward. How much do you have to hate somebody to not proselytize? How much do you have to hate somebody to believe everlasting life is possible and not tell them that? He says, I mean, if I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that a truck was coming at you and you didn't believe that truck was bearing down on you, there's a certain point where I would tackle you. And he says, this is more important than that. And he's an atheist, right? It's a matter of justice people have a right to hear.

Fr. Steve:

And Pope Francis has talked about the difference between proselytizing and evangelizing that, you know, there's a way both in our respect for the human person, as well as what we know is most effective, to do it in a winsome way, a convincing way, a way that's not just, you know, beating people over the head. And I think the Holy Father talks about that. And, you know, when he talks about not proselytizing, he means not in a way that either constricts someone's freedom or in a way that kind of is — it just wouldn't be winsome, right? Is too heavy handed. And we know that's not effective in our ultimate goal of winning the heart. Yeah. You know, I've been preaching recently on the 10 Commandments in just a preaching series I've been doing where, where I help out. And I was, you know, reading the catechism on the seventh commandment about you shall not steal, I know my commandments, I wasn't going to test you, Beth, on that.

Beth:

Thank you.

Fr. Steve:

But I knew you knew it anyway. And there's a concept in there about the universal destination of goods that God made all the goods of the earth for everyone, right? And that we have a right to private property, but that private property shouldn't constrict other people's rights to have what they need, not just for basic survival, but for the flourishing of the whole world. I think about that with the Gospel, too. That the Gospel has been given to certain individuals in a particular way, whether they're bishops or priests or lay people, but people who have been given the Gospel in a way that really wins their heart over. And it's not just meant for their private property to run off somewhere and keep it to themselves. But it's meant to be kind of the universal destination of the Gospel, that we should share that with everyone and that we are stewards of that message. And, you know, the responsibility is not just that I keep it intact in my own life, but that I'm willing to generously share it with others. Yeah.

Beth:

I think that's so beautiful. I was doing an Alpha and one of the questions that came up on that, "why and how should I tell others" session was, if you didn't know anything about Jesus, how would you want to be told? And it was always fascinating to hear people's responses to that question, because we have people who truly didn't know anything about Jesus and had just come to this thing because someone invited them. And and one of the women said, like, I think something like this, like, "You're my friends. I can say anything. You're just proposing things to me and I can accept them or reject them. And there's no pressure and our friendship, isn't, doesn't hinge on my response to this. But you're sharing it with me because you think it's important."

Fr. Steve:

Yeah. That's great. Let's go on to courage. And in this, I have my own thought. I have not just taken yours. [laughs]

Beth:

Great, 'cause my thought was pretty short. [laughs]

Fr. Steve:

So I'll lead on this for courage. Maybe a little bit, like you talked about justice, but I think one of the virtues we need is a willingness to engage in hard conversations are a number of aspects in the Catholic Church. Some of these are the moral teachings. We propose, like, the teaching about human sexuality that is often met with really opposed ears in our society. And we can tend to shy away from that. I don't think that's the place to lead all the time, but being willing to engage in those conversations in a way that respects other people where they're coming from, but also with a confidence in the Gospel. I think about that also with the faults and the brokenness of the Church, certainly the clergy abuse scandal, but also, like, disappointments people have had in the Church or questions that they ask just being willing to enter into those conversations and not know like the perfect answer to give, right? Like there's more questions than we have a discrete answer to because the answer is always in the heart of Jesus. So I think it takes the virtue of courage or fortitude to say, no, I'm going to go there without, you know, this perfect assurance on my end that I have the satisfactory answer, but with confidence that that Jesus and his Church provide the truth and the path for human flourishing. So I think a willingness to engage in hard conversations.

Beth:

Yeah. I like, it definitely sounds like healthy conflict, but not just conflict, just having healthy conversations and being willing to, to listen and share. Yeah, I think that's great. I think for me, when I thought of fortitude, I thought just bravery to live differently in the midst of indifference and hostility. We bought our house and just the way we kind of came to Shrine and all of this sort of was just a grace thing, right? The Lord's movement. And we closed on our house, which we didn't even know if we would find a house, on the Feast of the Sacred Heart, which was just a special, we already had a devotion to the Sacred Heart and so it's just really special. So we have a statue of Jesus's Sacred Heart on our front yard in our garden and just seeing the neighbors kind of, they're like, Hmm.

Beth:

You know, we always have just hundreds of — not hundreds. So many kids from our neighbors just hang around in our yard and play and we've got a swing and all of that. And sometimes I do — just the other day, I caught one of the neighbor girls kind of looking at it, just kind of with her head to the side, like, what is that? What is that in our garden? And I just thought like, you know, bravery, I live differently, you know, and maybe one day there'll be a chance for a conversation with her mom or whatever.

Fr. Steve:

Yeah. And I think, you know, when you talk about neighbors and friendships and relationships like that, I mean, it really is that willingness to be a little bit different that can spark the conversation or the question and can open the door that allows people time to say, "I know there's something different here. Now I'm ready to ask about it." So that's a great example. So Beth brings the expertise on the definitions of all these virtues and we've skipped justice and courage, but give us the definition for temperance.

Beth:

Temperance, yes. So the Catechism tells us temperance moderates the attraction of the pleasures of the senses and provides balance in the use of creative goods.

Fr. Steve:

Fancy, fancy definition. So temperance tells us to not become too attracted or too accustomed to the goods of this world, but to use them in moderation. So.

Beth:

I think the virtue here for me is childlike trust, which on the one hand, you're like, how does that belong to temperance? To me, it belongs to temperance because I think I had listened to this just profound talk that still also echoes in my mind about how as, Christians and as Catholics, we can't fall into the habit of numbing out and medicating our sorrows or medicating our stress with food or TV or alcohol or whatever it is. Right? So for me, I think the key to temperance today is to just my discernment is childlike trust, and bringing our wounds to Jesus, bringing the sorrows of the day. You know, when my kids were babies, my toddlers would crawl around the floor and pick anything up and bring it to me one time, my daughter brought me a nail.

Beth:

Another time I was brought a live bug. And most of the time it was just carpet fuzz. So I just kind of take it and they leave, you know, but one time my daughter was waiting expectantly, like, aren't you going to look at it? And I opened it up and it was a spider crawling around like — just horrible, right? But Jesus is happy when we bring him those yucky spiders and carpet fuzz and nails and whatever it is. Right? We bring those things, bring the wounds to the healer and then he can heal it. And then we can appreciate the beauty of the world and not numb out.

Fr. Steve:

Yeah. Yeah. Oftentimes obedience or trust, in the world's eyes, gets seen as a weakness or — yeah. I mean, you're using the term numbing out, a cop-out from you know, from dealing with the challenges we have. But I think the Christian life is so much about kind of that trust, that implicit trust in God, in his plan. And that every part of my life brought to him is made better. Now, often it's made harder because it's not what I want to do. Right? I want to go off on my own, but it's made better because it's kind of purified through the power of the Holy Spirit, the love of Jesus, and the will of the Father. And so, you know, that trust to bring every desire we have and every part of our life to lay it before him, is beautiful.

Fr. Steve:

Fr. Steve:

Fr. Steve:

The Church talks about them as cardinal virtues, if I remember this right — like I said, Beth brings the book knowledge, I just bring this energy that's undirected — but if I remember it right, Cardinal virtues, that comes from like the hinge, the concept of cardinal is hinge the Latin word for hinge. And like, these are the virtues on which everything else in our natural order are hinged on. And so that's why these are held up as the four kind of hinge virtues that help us live out the rest of our naturally ordered life.

Beth:

Yup.

Fr. Steve:

I get that right, Beth?

Beth:

I think that sounds great. Yeah.

Fr. Steve:

Is that a B plus answer? Or a B answer?

Beth:

Well, you know, we don't want to be too much for the grade inflation.

Fr. Steve:

Grade inflation. The main problem in our world. [laughs].

Beth:

Maybe a C. Hard to say. Huge, huge problem. Yeah. So what have you got on the theological virtues, then?

Fr. Steve:

We're going to transition to theological virtues, which are poured into us through sacramental grace. So when we're baptized, God just freely gives us these virtues of faith, hope, and charity because we're so great, because we're awesome, because we deserve them. No. Because God loves us. And in this is love, that Jesus died for us and claimed us. So God gives these to us freely. They're not things we earn and we can cooperate with them and help them to grow. But they're theological virtues because they're given to us. And in Paul's letter to the Corinthians, his first letter to the Corinthians, he talks about these as, you know, faith, hope, and charity, faith, hope, and love are the three things that will endure because they're the kind of foundational theological virtues. So let's talk about those and the aspects of those we need. Yeah. I love how Ron, enjoys my over the top voices here. So it's fun doing this by Zoom. We get to watch Ron's reactions as he produces this. So awesome. Okay. Let's dive in. Faith. Yeah, I'll go first on this. For faith I put — so do you have a definition for faith?

Beth:

I do. By faith, we believe in God and believe all that he has revealed to us and that the Holy Church proposes for our belief.

Fr. Steve:

Yeah. So I think of faith has looking back at what God has done and building my life upon that foundation of what God has done, what Jesus has done. So for me, what we need in faith is a belief in the whole Gospel, that the Gospel shapes my life and I don't pick and choose it, that I don't construct it on my own or kind of leave off the parts that become a challenge either for me personally, or societally. I think the virtue we need in faith here is a confidence in the whole Gospel fitting together and that taking Jesus and everything he teaches and as Catholics we know and believe he teaches authoritatively in and through his Church. So to believe Jesus is also to have confidence in his bride and in his body, the Church. To believe that all of that holds together as the path for salvation.

Fr. Steve:

I think there can be a real challenge. I see it in my life to say, well, this is not so important. Or, or maybe, you know, the famous line, "When did Jesus ever say X, Y, or Z." And instead of knowing, like, no, the Church has taught from time immemorial from the apostolic age, these truths, because the Gospel fits together as a whole way of life in a way that directs us to God. So I think the virtue of around faith we need is a belief and a confidence in the totality of the Gospel and for the Gospel to shape my life instead of me wanting to shape the Gospel to fit my own life.

Beth:

That's good. I think from me — I think yours is better than mine. What I like is the idea of confidence in the Holy Spirit and expectancy in what God is doing and how we're still a part of God's work. God is still moving and working today. And I was able to spend a summer in Istanbul, Turkey as a missionary and I just remember sitting there, we would pray, and then we would go talk to people. And I remember sitting there on the stone wall overlooking the whole city, and there was, you know, the call to prayer went out. The Muslim call to prayer. And there's all these mosques everywhere. And the call to prayer goes off. And I just remember thinking like, Lord, how could, how could people ever come to know you? Like, there's just, if there's just so few Christians here, how could they come to know?

Beth:

And the verse that I kind of settled on or sensed was from Habbakuk —which is an underused book of the Bible —Habakkuk 1:5, "Look over the nations and see, and be utterly amazed for a work is being done in your days that you would not believe were it told." To me, just the idea that the Holy Spirit is moving today and we are just a little part of the wave of his work, you know, and so we can be carried along and sometimes there's a part for us to play and sometimes there's not, but to have that confidence that he is still moving in and that the story is still spreading. I think that's what I think we need just greater confidence in the Holy Spirit's work today.

Fr. Steve:

Amen. That's beautiful. And I think you're connecting it to prayer and to, you know, when you talked about your own mission, that you would pray and then go out, obviously that's what Jesus does with his disciples. You see that in the Gospel of Mark, he calls his apostles to be with him, to be with him. So to be united with Jesus, we do that in prayer now, and then to be sent out. I was reading the the book of Jonah during Lent a little bit and, you know, it struck me that Jonah is such a funny prophet because God calls him, so he has this very clear mission of what he should be doing. God calls him to do it, and he doesn't want to do it. He runs away and all this stuff happens in his life. And then he actually goes to preach to the city of Nineveh, but he goes with like this total lack of expectancy that God's going to do something.

Fr. Steve:

So then after a day of him preaching when the king and, you know, says, no, we need to repent. Jonah is upset. He's like, what? I thought we were bringing fire and brimstone on Nineveh and they're converting. Like he didn't have an expectancy that being obedient to God and following God's plan and proclaiming where, and when God called him to proclaim this call of repentance and for us, it's repentance and believe in the Gospel. He didn't have this expectancy that God would work. And it kind of like surprised him. And I think that's a great challenge to me at times to say, no, like when God is asking you to do something, you should expect him to like to bring it about, right? Maybe not in the way or in the, to the degree we want, but if we listen to God and we're, you know, this is where he's leading us, we should expect that he's actually going to do it. We should hope that he does it as well. And let's — so let's talk about hope. Tell us what hope is, and then tell us how you think the virtue of hope can, should be lived out now.

Beth:

Beth:

They were always quiet. And I was always trying to chat with them, you know, like tell me something, inspire me and give me something because you know so much and a sister just laughed. She's like, "Oh no, I can't talk. I can't talk. I need silence. I'm always thinking of heaven. Always. I'm always thinking of heaven. I can't talk about this world. I don't care. I just, I'm always thinking of heaven.: She's like, "I'm not here. I look like I'm here, but I'm not here." And I just thought it was such a profound, beautiful thing for the sister to share with me. And so, you know, I think also Philippians 4:8, right? "Finally brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure. Whatever is lovely. Whatever is gracious. If there's any excellence. And if there's anything worthy of praise, think about these things." Not think about what's on your — what's trending. Not think about what people are talking about. Not think about the latest controversy. Think about what is good, what is true? What is beautiful? What is pure? Are we thinking about those things? How can we think about those things? Because otherwise we'll be just as anxious as everyone else is.

Fr. Steve:

Yeah. And our Lord says that in the Gospel when he says, it's not what goes into the mouth that defiles, it's what comes from the inside that comes out, that defiles us, right? Like, what we think about shapes, our words, our actions, our attitudes, our interactions. And so I think that's such profound advice from St. Paul that you're making your own for our day and age is to dwell on the good things and to make sure we are kind of nourishing our spiritual life on those good things so that our actions, our words and our life is reflected in that.

Beth:

Yeah. Yeah. How about you. Hope? What have we got?

Fr. Steve:

I, for me, I think it's when I think of hope, I think of looking at the examples of other people around us, the saints, small around us, they give me a ton of hope. So witness stories are so crucial and like, you're, you're great at this, at telling kind of stories from Alpha or other people who've encountered the Lord. I think that is such hopeful news because the more we move from Christendom, this kind of structure around Christianity, to an Apostolic Age where societally, we're going to be in opposition with most people, we need to find our brothers and sisters who are really living out the Gospel in an inspiring way, you know. Hope directs our attention to heaven. It directs our attention to this other world like that sister you shared talked about. So for me, the virtue of hope really is lived out by saying, who are the saints in my life who are calling me to be better than I am right now, the people who are just kicking butt —

Speaker 2:

And I'll just, I won't use a more graphic expression — kicking butt right now and following Jesus, and the people I look at and say, "I want to be like her. I want to be like him. I want to have that person's —," you know, not in an envious way or a self-loathing way, but to say like, no, they have something that's really attractive that helps me, you know, see that God is working in this world and that my response to him can bring forth fruit. I think that is such a needed virtue right now. So to hold up people who are doing well, knowing that everyone's imperfect, right? And we can kind of deify someone in a way that makes even their slightest fault, then, like, crumble all of our confidence in that. We don't want to do that, but we want to say no, like, God's really working in that area. And and that's a beautiful thing. So I think finding the saints among us is the virtue of hope.

Beth:

I like it. Yeah. Charity.

Fr. Steve:

Charity. Caritas, as we say in Latin. I don't know if that's true. Yeah, no, that's caritas. Yeah. What is charity? What is this virtue about?

Beth:

By charity we love God above all things and our neighbor as ourselves for love of God.

Fr. Steve:

Beth:

44.

Fr. Steve:

44. All right. Am I leading off or are you?

Beth:

Sure. I can try. I think for charity, I had a whole bunch of ideas here. It's hard to come up with something better than just charity, but I think specifically what we need now is just deeper intimacy with God. And I think partly that means letting God love us and responding with worshiping fortitude. And I think partly it means maybe being a little more vulnerable open with the people around us about our relationship with God, because I think there's just so many Catholics and Christians and people in the world altogether who don't know that an intimate relationship with God is possible. And I think those who know, have a duty to share it so that other people can know that that's possible and normative. I had a good friend who was a deacon who said, you know, relationship, like we have a relationship with God? He's like, absolutely. But I have a personal relationship with Jesus? I don't know That — I don't know, like, is that part of it? Is that part of our tradition? And I was like, Oh wow. Yes, yes. It's part of it. So I think we need to lean into that deeper intimacy with God, because it's not going to get easier, right?

Beth:

People don't love us now necessarily. I mean, and we seem to find quite enough to squabble about among ourselves. So perhaps if we had greater intimacy with God and we were really letting him love us and sharing that with other people, surely that would help us to love one another more too.

Fr. Steve:

Yeah. I find intimacy with God this weird paradox, when I do it well in my life, of greater acceptance of myself with my faults, but also greater humility about myself. So I take myself less seriously and like just really see my own faults and that God loves me despite of that, you know — in spite of that, or whatever the right way to say that is — God loves me knowing my fault. And so it makes me more patient with other people, right? So I see myself as like, not this, you know, kind of having figured it out person that then is like, why can't the rest of you get here? But I also realize that, you know, God is really working. Yeah, that God is transforming me. And so it gives me both greater humility about myself and greater realization of, you know, what God desires for me and trust in him.

Fr. Steve:

So I love that. I love it. Intimacy with God. I went in the opposite direction. So you went kind of high, Gospel of John on us there. I went kind of you know I don't, I'm not going to pick on any other Gospel, but I went — the way this gets lived out in my mind is sacrificial love, especially for non-believers. So being willing. Yeah. So just being willing to be inconvenienced. I am like the least patient person I know. And so being inconvenienced by people who don't know Jesus, and the way we can live this out in the apostolic age is by this radical sacrificial love for people who don't believe in the Lord. One of the great blessings of ministry has been, for me as a priest, is seeing — it's just changed my mindset about people.

Fr. Steve:

And in one way is, you know, people share an intimate part of their life with you when you — as a priest, and I'm sure this happens to you too, Beth. But so, they open up hurts and challenges and difficulties they have. But then you also see people, in the same vein, who have lots of walls up and who make it harder for them to be loved, I think, right? They can be short tempered with you, or they can be kind of dismissive. And so to see like the way those fit together, that people have a brokenness or a challenge in their life, and that that can manifest itself in a barrier they put up — to love people, sacrificially like to put up with a side comment or a dismissive remark or a rude action, to kind of over overlook that, or to push through for that I think is a way we can witness to the transforming power of the Gospel in our lives and the way it's meant to be a gift we pour into other people's lives.

Beth:

Hmm. That's beautiful. I had one last fast, fast thought about charity. What about loving this world for God's sake? I was reading about —.

Fr. Steve:

I like that one a lot. I like that.

Beth:

Yeah. I've been reading about biblical interpretation and how all these atheist materialists came to interpret the Bible only looking at it as like, not even a history, just like an artifact. Right? And I was thinking, is it possible just looking at where we are today, that atheist materialists, who like, just secularists today, is it possible that people today who aren't believers have more reverence for creation than we do? But, like, do we receive this world as a gift from our Father in heaven? And then how do we take care of this world as a gift from our Father in heaven? I just thought that was a fascinating thing, especially 'cause that sings with the culture, right? People are singing that song already. Is there a way for us to sing that song as well? And in much more profundity of course, because it's a gift?

Fr. Steve:

I thin Gaudium et Spes tries to talk about that a little bit. I think the back half of Gaudium et Spes, the second half tries to talk about that with the idea that when we live for the world to come, we don't have less concern for the things of this world. And that doesn't always get manifested in how we live. And so I think there's a lot of truth to that. That that can be winsome. I really like that adjective. Yeah, and it feels kind of old fashioned, so I feel smarter saying it. That it can be winsome for people like you're saying who, you know, who care about this created world in a way that, you know, we can leverage that, that what we have in common and kind of unite it to something greater.

Fr. Steve:

Some mailbag questions around these topics. So the first one would be what helps you grow in virtue? If you're trying to grow in virtues, you can take any of these, but what helps you to grow in, in a virtue? How do we get better at these things? I can take a stab at it to begin with. You know, this is a little bit of an irreverent way of saying it, but, hey, that's the fun of being on a podcast! I think faking it is a good way to do it. Like, you know, so like I need to grow in patience, right? And so when I am in a situation when it's very clear that I am losing my patience, pretending to be patient — and maybe pretending is a little not the right way to say it — but it's an irreverent way of saying like exercising that virtue by saying, I'm not patient interiorly right now, but I'm going to force myself not to demonstrate this or to act out on the vice of impatience will help me do that. And so it's just taking one of these — for my end on the sacrificial love of non-believers, even when I want to snap back at someone, or even when I have other things to do and I want to get on with that, to kind of force myself, to pour into someone who, you know, doesn't look like they're maybe want to receive it, I think is one way I can, I can grow in some of these virtues.

Beth:

Yeah. I think that's great. I think asking God for help in the moment when I'm confronted with my — the end of myself, if you will, I have come to the end of myself and yet more is required. Asking the Holy Spirit for help, and that I think yeah, I mean, similar, like just trying, you know, like when I try then the grace comes. The grace doesn't come before I try, it comes after I begin trying and cooperate with that grace. Yeah, I think that's what comes to me. Just trying. And I think also, maybe it's overwhelming, 'cause we're talking about so many, but I think I would just say like, is there one of these that stands out, and then focus on it, you know, take week for one virtue and, and look for opportunities to use it.

Fr. Steve:

Yeah. I know some people find — like, there's a Monk Manual that I have, I haven't used yet — some people find like journaling or calendaring, some of this stuff to be really helpful. Virtues are habits. And whenever you're trying to get into a new habit whether that's, you know, physically, intellectually, spiritually, sometimes just kind of the accountability of journaling and tracking can be very helpful. St. Ignatius talked about that in his own kind of spiritual exercises to kind of journal like, okay, what happened in my prayer these days? I think it can be really helpful when we're trying to grow in virtue to say, okay, how, where did I succeed? Or where did I fail today, if you're really intentional and if you're kind of one of these, like A, type A personality who really likes to track this and grow.

Beth:

If you're scrupulous, I don't recommend that. Not particularly, unless you want a full Confession line again, by all means. I think also looking at the lives of the saints, you know, when you read the lives of the saints, it's like drinking such clear water that you realize, Oh, okay, that's what this virtue looks like. I thought it was just, you know, look what everyone around me looks like, you know, not believers, but just in our world. Right? Like we have these virtues that we celebrate and hold up secularly and just in our culture. And I think reading the lives of the saints is such a — it's just like a breath of fresh air, I think, to see, Oh, look what's possible. Look what's possible when we cooperate with the Holy Spirit and ask for him to help us.

Fr. Steve:

One last question of the mailbag. Beth, do you have any favorite devotion in the Church? Is there any favorite devotion either of a saint or a prayer?

Beth:

I really like the Divine Mercy Chaplet. I really like it. I, for some reason I just get —.

Fr. Steve:

Because it's short. Because it's the shortest.

Beth:

Fr. Steve:

Long, longer devotions. [laughs]]

Beth:

I'm sure. [laughs] Well you are much holier than I am, so I'm not surprised.

Fr. Steve:

I'm kidding. You know, I really love the saints. And so like reading the lives of the saints is a great devotion for me. And, you know, we're kind of going in different areas here. So you know, not to juxtapose any of them, but my vocation really grew out of Eucharistic Adoration. So I think being in Eucharistic Adoration, for me, is kind of the most important devotion. In some ways that's like the capstone devotion, because it's, you know, it's Our Lord truly present there.

Beth:

Yeah, it's a pretty good one.

Fr. Steve:

Yeah. But I think Eucharistic devotion is central to my own life and so important for me. So. Before we wrap up, can I — let's do a little cheese trivia question, Beth. I have the most popular cheeses in four different countries. And I'm going to ask you to name, what is the most popular cheese in these four different countries? You ready?

Beth:

Oh, of course I'm ready.

Fr. Steve:

Beth. What is the most popular cheese in the country of Greece?

Beth:

Oh, Greece. Feta.

Fr. Steve:

Feta! Exactly.

Beth:

I got it? Give me another one.

Fr. Steve:

Beth. What is the most popular cheese in the country of France?

Beth:

France? Brie.

Fr. Steve:

Brie is second. The first one I've never heard of, camembert?

Beth:

Camembert. Yeah. I think they should get like, at least more than half credit for not only naming the second, but pronouncing the first one correct.

Fr. Steve:

In relation to me, you get like 90% of the credit for this. So, so well done. Camembert?

Beth:

Camembert.

Fr. Steve:

Camembert is the most popular cheese in France. All right. Third of four, Beth. What is the most popular cheese in the United Kingdom?

Beth:

The United Kingdom. What, I don't remember cheese in any of their cuisine? Boy, I don't know. Cheddar?

Fr. Steve:

Ding ding ding! Exactly. All right. That's awesome. I would not have gotten that. I was going to say it's always better with, and then to lead you on, but you didn't need it.

Beth:

I think of English food and I don't see cheese on much of it, but obviously we have a cheese problem, perhaps.

Fr. Steve:

Yeah. I don't know any English food. I mean, it's not really a part of the world known for their delicious cuisine.

Beth:

Yeah. Well, let's not offend any of our good listeners, you know, the world over. [laughs]

Fr. Steve:

Right. Okay. I mean, England does many, many good things. Cuisine is not one of them. Right? [laughs]

Beth:

And welcoming Father Steve Pullis is probably not one of them. [laughs]

Fr. Steve:

Yeah. That's okay. All right. Last and most, yeah most recent question. 'Cause it's the last, what is the most popular cheese in the United States of America?

Beth:

Hmm. I want to argue now and say, well, what does — what do we mean by popular? Most used?

Fr. Steve:

Yes. Or by sales figures.

Beth:

Then I'm going to say mozzarella.

Fr. Steve:

Mozzarella! Yes!

Beth:

Pizza, because it's on pizza.

Fr. Steve:

Wow. Beth knows her cheeses.

Beth:

Well, we've got all month long. So, you know, let's keep celebrating, fill those social media threads, people. Well, Father Steve, what's one personal takeaway from this awesome conversation so far?

Fr. Steve:

Well, Beth, I loved the virtues that you held up. And I think, you know, for me thinking about the willingness to speak about Jesus, how that's really in a category of justice and that example you gave of a Penn of Penn and Teller, that's really the most important thing I took on our need to kind of live virtues in a unique way for the times we're in right now. So how about you?

Beth:

Awesome. Yeah, I think for me, I love what you said about building our lives on the whole Gospel. Boy, that's fantastic. Letting the Gospel stretch us in all the ways that we need to be stretched, building our lives on the whole Gospel. So I'm going to get back to work on that one.

Fr. Steve:

This has been the latest edition of the Encounter Grow Witness podcast and we are grateful to all of our listeners for joining us today.

Beth:

Don't forget to like and subscribe to the Encounter Grow Witness podcast on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.