Feedback is a skill, and yet so few people have a chance to grow this skill. We help you find the tools and a few tactics that can kickstart your growth.

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Bob: 00:00:00

Bob,

Josh Anderson: 00:00:00

I listen.

Josh Anderson: 00:00:00

I don't need the attitude.

Josh Anderson: 00:00:02

I don't need the attitude.

Josh Anderson: 00:00:09

I don't need you to get defensive with a little bit of feedback.

Bob: 00:00:13

And you know what I say, Take your ass back into your cocoon.

Bob: 00:00:16

Okay?

Bob: 00:00:42

We got so much feedback about our feedback episode, we're doing more

Bob: 00:00:46

feedback talk and you know what?

Bob: 00:00:48

We even added more feedback to our discord server.

Bob: 00:00:51

That's right.

Bob: 00:00:52

Feedback everywhere.

Bob: 00:00:53

You know what.

Bob: 00:00:54

Like we said, it's a gift.

Bob: 00:00:57

We talk about that this episode, we talk about how you can tactically become great

Bob: 00:01:03

at providing feedback in all directions.

Bob: 00:01:06

So listen in to grow that skill.

Bob: 00:01:09

That's so few people have the opportunity to grow.

Bob: 00:01:12

Get better at feedback now.

Josh Anderson: 00:01:15

We got feedback about our episode, about feedback, which, Perfect.

Josh Anderson: 00:01:19

And you know what?

Josh Anderson: 00:01:20

In our Discord link below, we now have a episode feedback section where

Josh Anderson: 00:01:28

people can drop in their comments about previous episodes and what they think,

Josh Anderson: 00:01:33

what they'd like to hear us expand on.

Josh Anderson: 00:01:35

Any audio issues if there were too many words from a certain co-host

Josh Anderson: 00:01:40

or dogs barking in the background.

Josh Anderson: 00:01:42

You know?

Josh Anderson: 00:01:42

Yeah.

Josh Anderson: 00:01:43

All, all of those things are options, so yeah,

Bob: 00:01:45

you could do that.

Bob: 00:01:48

So feedback.

Bob: 00:01:49

It's like recursion, you know, I always got confused with recursion.

Bob: 00:01:52

You know that?

Bob: 00:01:53

Yeah.

Josh Anderson: 00:01:54

But it's magical once you

Bob: 00:01:55

figure it out, right?

Bob: 00:01:56

Yeah.

Bob: 00:01:56

There's magic once you figure it out.

Bob: 00:01:58

But it's a li it's like recur, like feedback is like that, right?

Bob: 00:02:01

Yeah.

Bob: 00:02:01

It's recur.

Bob: 00:02:02

It can be recursive.

Bob: 00:02:04

Hmm.

Bob: 00:02:05

So

Josh Anderson: 00:02:06

the request we had was to dig like one.

Josh Anderson: 00:02:10

Deeper where we talked about feedback in general, but this was, Hey, how

Josh Anderson: 00:02:14

do I give feedback to a teammate?

Josh Anderson: 00:02:16

Or maybe I have a distant stakeholder that we need to give some feedback too.

Josh Anderson: 00:02:21

Like I know Bob has told a story about going into executive rooms

Josh Anderson: 00:02:26

and saying, You have to be here.

Josh Anderson: 00:02:28

You have to be at this.

Josh Anderson: 00:02:29

Sprint review or demo, or whatever flavor you want to use.

Josh Anderson: 00:02:32

So those times where that crucial conversation is important, that means

Josh Anderson: 00:02:37

it's a highly important discussion and you're likely a little bit

Josh Anderson: 00:02:40

nervous about not screwing it up.

Josh Anderson: 00:02:43

So our goal today is to enable you to go have those conversations.

Bob: 00:02:47

I want to kick things off, Josh.

Bob: 00:02:49

This maybe.

Bob: 00:02:50

Just demolish it if it's off track.

Bob: 00:02:52

Okay.

Bob: 00:02:52

I'm ready.

Bob: 00:02:53

Before we, we get into tools and techniques.

Bob: 00:02:55

I think it's the will.

Bob: 00:02:57

So one of the things I struggle with when I listen to people, a lot of

Bob: 00:03:02

people are looking for, give me this checklist and we can get into tools.

Bob: 00:03:05

I'm not saying they not useful, but the root cause I find, I mean I've

Bob: 00:03:10

heard it in this last week, folks are looking for some safe way to give.

Bob: 00:03:16

or they're looking for someone else to do it.

Bob: 00:03:18

And my brain almost always goes to, you know, the biggest problem is

Bob: 00:03:22

whether it's up, sideways or down to your team member or whatnot.

Bob: 00:03:27

And radical candor helps.

Bob: 00:03:28

There's two dimensions to radical candor, but it's like, do you have

Bob: 00:03:32

the will, the willingness to do it?

Bob: 00:03:35

And usually the answer is no, I don't want to do it.

Bob: 00:03:38

And there's factors around that.

Bob: 00:03:40

But to me, part of it is just, it's like stepping in with courage.

Bob: 00:03:44

And then using that and then looking at, now how do I give it?

Bob: 00:03:47

But there's almost like this gap between almost everyone I meet

Bob: 00:03:51

particularly when it's, the feedback is more dangerous, if you will.

Bob: 00:03:53

Yeah.

Bob: 00:03:53

Or more risky.

Bob: 00:03:54

And folks find all kinds of reasons and excuses why not to give it.

Bob: 00:03:59

So to me it would be will I'm, I'm punting that out.

Bob: 00:04:01

There will first.

Bob: 00:04:03

And then, and that's the most important thing, because you could

Bob: 00:04:05

have the, the most, you know, like 20,000 tools in your pocket.

Bob: 00:04:10

Mm-hmm.

Bob: 00:04:10

. But if you don't want to do it, then you're not going to do it.

Bob: 00:04:13

You're not gonna give feedback.

Bob: 00:04:14

What.

Bob: 00:04:15

Any reactions

Josh Anderson: 00:04:16

to that?

Josh Anderson: 00:04:16

Yeah, I, there's two sides to that coin.

Josh Anderson: 00:04:18

I believe to be effective at it, you have to have both the will and the skill.

Josh Anderson: 00:04:24

Yeah.

Josh Anderson: 00:04:24

And unfortunately, that skill is hardly ever taught.

Josh Anderson: 00:04:28

And even worse, the models or role models that you have from people

Josh Anderson: 00:04:33

giving feedback to you because they were never taught are pretty rough.

Josh Anderson: 00:04:37

So you don't have.

Josh Anderson: 00:04:39

Uh, safe pathway to understanding of this is how I do it well, because it's

Josh Anderson: 00:04:43

done so poorly or not at all across the board, which creates that lack of will

Josh Anderson: 00:04:49

because they know they don't have skill.

Josh Anderson: 00:04:51

So it compounds there and yes, will is the first and most important thing.

Josh Anderson: 00:04:56

You have to have to be able to do that.

Josh Anderson: 00:04:58

But I think the will is further reduced when there isn't a piece of

Josh Anderson: 00:05:03

skill there to go do it with confide.

Bob: 00:05:07

I, I mean, I think it's one of the factors.

Bob: 00:05:09

Yeah.

Bob: 00:05:09

For ex, for example, I, I remember by parts of my career I was doing multiple

Bob: 00:05:13

pips per, uh, personal improvement plans.

Bob: 00:05:16

And because I had a large organization I was involved in, you know,

Bob: 00:05:19

several pips at the same time.

Bob: 00:05:21

And what I found is they drained the life out of me.

Bob: 00:05:24

They were really exhausting, right?

Bob: 00:05:26

Yeah.

Bob: 00:05:26

Because giving feedback to people and how active you had to be in that.

Bob: 00:05:29

And then there was someone else that needed feedback.

Bob: 00:05:31

And to be honest, and this may sound lame, meta casters and I actually

Bob: 00:05:35

don't care cuz it's the reality.

Bob: 00:05:37

I didn't have the will, I didn't have the energy for it.

Bob: 00:05:39

I literally said, I need to have this conversation, but I'm not going to because

Bob: 00:05:44

I just don't have, I don't have the energy to have yet another conversation.

Bob: 00:05:48

So that's, to me, I didn't have.

Bob: 00:05:51

, right?

Bob: 00:05:51

I had this and skills are not, or it's too dangerous.

Bob: 00:05:55

Like I think what I'm saying is I think people, you gotta get over

Bob: 00:05:58

the excuse train to some degree.

Bob: 00:06:01

Yeah.

Bob: 00:06:01

And then there's, there's almost a default excu excuse train in most people's brains.

Bob: 00:06:06

I'm thinking it's a, a bad way to.

Bob: 00:06:08

Phrase it, but, uh, because it's so, it's so hard.

Bob: 00:06:13

It's not just even safety.

Bob: 00:06:15

It freaking requires energy, right?

Bob: 00:06:17

, you would, you agree?

Josh Anderson: 00:06:19

Yeah.

Josh Anderson: 00:06:19

Yeah.

Josh Anderson: 00:06:19

And the energy, starts well before the conversation and hangs around

Josh Anderson: 00:06:24

well after the conversation.

Josh Anderson: 00:06:26

Yeah.

Josh Anderson: 00:06:26

Right?

Josh Anderson: 00:06:26

Because you're, because you want to deliver it so well,

Josh Anderson: 00:06:30

because you want to be respect.

Josh Anderson: 00:06:32

You're really thinking through how to do it, you're probably losing a little

Josh Anderson: 00:06:36

sleep because it's that important to you.

Josh Anderson: 00:06:38

And then you provide the feedback and there's a dialogue there and

Josh Anderson: 00:06:42

whether it goes well or not, you're still gonna replay what happened in

Josh Anderson: 00:06:47

that discussion in your mind for a day or two, which is good, right?

Josh Anderson: 00:06:50

Cuz you're giving yourself the feedback of this is how I get better.

Josh Anderson: 00:06:53

But also you relive some of the energy that you went through to put in to

Josh Anderson: 00:06:57

make that happen and some of the challenges that happen along the way.

Josh Anderson: 00:07:02

It is a, uh, very draining thing to do it well when you care.

Josh Anderson: 00:07:08

Now, if you do it poorly without care, then yeah, it's super easy, right?

Josh Anderson: 00:07:12

Just like on the internet, you can get on the internet and

Josh Anderson: 00:07:14

say anybody's terrible, know?

Josh Anderson: 00:07:15

and that's, that doesn't take anything but 20 keystrokes, so that's no big deal.

Josh Anderson: 00:07:19

But doing it well, doing it thoughtfully and respectfully, that'll,

Bob: 00:07:23

that'll wear a person out.

Bob: 00:07:25

And it's not done either.

Bob: 00:07:26

It's not a one shot.

Bob: 00:07:28

Yeah.

Bob: 00:07:28

Rarely is feet, so it's not, I could see it if it was like a 10 minute

Bob: 00:07:32

conversation and then you're, maybe then you have five minutes of prep and five

Bob: 00:07:36

minutes, So five, ten five or whatever.

Bob: 00:07:38

So it's double the angst time but the conversations

Bob: 00:07:41

are never like that, at least.

Bob: 00:07:43

, or very rarely.

Bob: 00:07:44

It's like an ongoing, like I'll give someone feedback

Bob: 00:07:47

and they might be defense.

Bob: 00:07:49

So then they come back for clarification, right?

Bob: 00:07:52

And inside I'm inside, I'm rolling my eyes.

Bob: 00:07:54

I'm like, crap.

Bob: 00:07:55

God, this is gonna be ugly.

Bob: 00:07:57

But I'm, I'm engaging, I'm trying cuz it's my job.

Bob: 00:08:00

And then there may be a follow up in the other way, or there may be retaliation.

Bob: 00:08:04

Well, you gave me feedback.

Bob: 00:08:06

Let me give you, let me give you years feedback.

Bob: 00:08:09

So all I'm getting at is, It.

Bob: 00:08:12

It's an ongoing, very often it's an ongoing event, so

Bob: 00:08:15

that exacerbates it as well.

Bob: 00:08:17

Yeah, that, Let's get into it.

Bob: 00:08:18

Let's get into the tools.

Bob: 00:08:19

I didn't mean to derail it.

Bob: 00:08:20

I think I can

Josh Anderson: 00:08:21

segue very well into those tools based on what you just said.

Josh Anderson: 00:08:24

So the part that Bob just talked about, about it's not a one shot deal is true

Josh Anderson: 00:08:29

because so often when you have that first discussion with somebody, they hear

Josh Anderson: 00:08:34

the first words that come outta your.

Josh Anderson: 00:08:36

Then they likely get angry or defensive or whatever.

Josh Anderson: 00:08:40

And then the background you're providing isn't hurt at all.

Josh Anderson: 00:08:43

So they just hear, you're not doing well enough, and then you provide all

Josh Anderson: 00:08:47

this feedback and reason why, But their brain has already shut off listening

Josh Anderson: 00:08:51

and they're processing and they're like, wtf, They're table flipping, They're

Josh Anderson: 00:08:54

doing all this stuff that's going on, and they haven't heard all of that.

Josh Anderson: 00:08:58

So you will have to revisit that.

Josh Anderson: 00:09:02

A couple minutes later, maybe you work them through that and

Josh Anderson: 00:09:05

then you say, Okay, let's go over that again, just so we're clear.

Josh Anderson: 00:09:09

But it will never work that there's a single moment or instance where

Josh Anderson: 00:09:15

you provide feedback that matters and it's all consumed right away.

Bob: 00:09:22

People react and sometimes people react by whimper.

Bob: 00:09:25

Yeah.

Bob: 00:09:26

Okay.

Josh Anderson: 00:09:26

But yeah, that's what, that's what my dog does,

Josh Anderson: 00:09:28

, Bob: So any other I think

Josh Anderson: 00:09:33

Yeah.

Josh Anderson: 00:09:33

I think, uh, today I was teaching a class online.

Josh Anderson: 00:09:36

It was a scrum gathering in Sri Lanka, and I was talking about having a conversation.

Josh Anderson: 00:09:43

So I think one skill is thinking in terms of a radical, you know, having

Josh Anderson: 00:09:48

a model where there's opening in my arc for coaching conversations

Josh Anderson: 00:09:53

or feedback conversations.

Josh Anderson: 00:09:54

I like a chess metaphor.

Josh Anderson: 00:09:56

Josh, you probably heard this at nausea sometimes.

Josh Anderson: 00:09:58

, but it's like opening moves, middle game, end game.

Josh Anderson: 00:10:00

And what I was asking folks to do in the workshop was put the arc on a piece

Josh Anderson: 00:10:03

of paper and I gave them a scenario.

Josh Anderson: 00:10:06

And I asked them to scribble some ideas around how would they open,

Josh Anderson: 00:10:10

given the scenario, how would you open, what would be the middle game?

Josh Anderson: 00:10:13

How would you close it?

Josh Anderson: 00:10:14

Would there be other conversations you would have?

Josh Anderson: 00:10:17

It's, what would the bouncing ball be like if it was the first conversation?

Josh Anderson: 00:10:21

You want to just establish rapport.

Josh Anderson: 00:10:23

Or maybe see how they're going.

Josh Anderson: 00:10:25

So you would ask more questions it towards a, if it was a second or a third

Josh Anderson: 00:10:29

conversation, feedback session, it might be contentious or something like that.

Josh Anderson: 00:10:33

. So prepare that.

Josh Anderson: 00:10:34

What's your mindset like cleaning up your biases before you go into the arc?

Josh Anderson: 00:10:39

Make sure that you're not, you know, if I've had five conver , like with you,

Josh Anderson: 00:10:43

Josh, if I've had five hard challenging conversations with you, and I know

Josh Anderson: 00:10:47

I have to have a conversation with you on Monday, I need to clean out

Josh Anderson: 00:10:50

myself so I don't, so I don't trigger.

Josh Anderson: 00:10:53

Yeah.

Josh Anderson: 00:10:53

And I, I don't mentally say, Oh, this is gonna be hard before you even open your

Josh Anderson: 00:10:57

word on mon your mouth on Monday morning.

Josh Anderson: 00:10:59

I've already prejudge.

Josh Anderson: 00:11:01

Yep.

Josh Anderson: 00:11:02

And he's smiling cuz I, I might do that occasionally.

Josh Anderson: 00:11:05

So yeah.

Josh Anderson: 00:11:06

Cause

Josh Anderson: 00:11:06

I've never heard you say, I'm not picking, but I knew I was,

Bob: 00:11:11

I was hoping you would bring that example.

Bob: 00:11:14

I'm not, I hope this is a negative, but I'm not picking, but Yeah, exactly.

Bob: 00:11:20

And that's, that, that bias.

Bob: 00:11:21

So I think that arc is really useful, not just while while you're in, but pre.

Bob: 00:11:28

Like getting your brain lined up.

Bob: 00:11:30

So I go in clean.

Bob: 00:11:32

How am I gonna start?

Bob: 00:11:33

Maybe I'll start with some questions and then really listen hard.

Bob: 00:11:37

Like if, if I'm giving, if I've observed something, my open ended

Bob: 00:11:41

questions would be around empathy.

Bob: 00:11:43

Okay, I have this view.

Bob: 00:11:45

What's their view?

Bob: 00:11:46

Yeah, what's their perspective?

Bob: 00:11:48

And then shut up and listen.

Bob: 00:11:49

So my arc would be open-ended questions.

Bob: 00:11:52

Shut up.

Bob: 00:11:52

Damnit Bob, listen.

Bob: 00:11:54

And then really peel the.

Bob: 00:11:56

and that might be that conversation.

Bob: 00:11:58

So I found that having that in my mind knowing that I have to not

Bob: 00:12:02

just ask questions, but then move and start resolving something or

Bob: 00:12:05

exploring something, and then I have to close it with, and very often

Bob: 00:12:09

the close is, What did you hear?

Bob: 00:12:12

Like confirmation.

Bob: 00:12:13

This is, I heard we had a conversation.

Bob: 00:12:16

What are your takeaways, Josh?

Bob: 00:12:17

This is what I heard.

Bob: 00:12:18

What did you.

Bob: 00:12:20

, this is the agreements.

Bob: 00:12:21

I heard this is the observations.

Bob: 00:12:23

What did you, And then really listening into Josh to confirm, are we on the

Bob: 00:12:27

same page or did he trigger and he only heard like the first word and

Bob: 00:12:32

then he didn't hear anything else.

Bob: 00:12:33

Well then I have some work to do.

Bob: 00:12:36

Yep.

Bob: 00:12:36

So that might be sort of trigger was having an arc, thinking about

Bob: 00:12:40

opening, closing, things like that.

Bob: 00:12:42

What you think.

Bob: 00:12:44

Yeah,

Josh Anderson: 00:12:44

I certainly, because you have to understand how the

Josh Anderson: 00:12:47

feedback is gonna be received.

Josh Anderson: 00:12:48

In general, everybody's different but human emotions will follow

Josh Anderson: 00:12:53

pretty much the same path.

Josh Anderson: 00:12:54

One of the approaches that I prefer to take is what I've found over my time is

Josh Anderson: 00:13:01

that whenever there's a difference in opinion in how things are or should be

Josh Anderson: 00:13:07

done, There's usually a information gap that someone has a piece of information

Josh Anderson: 00:13:15

that I don't, so I go into it and I say, Bob, this is what I'm seeing, so

Josh Anderson: 00:13:21

that leads me to believe X, Y, and Z.

Josh Anderson: 00:13:25

But I'm not sure that's true.

Josh Anderson: 00:13:27

Can you walk me through your side of the story and help me understand that?

Josh Anderson: 00:13:31

Because I'm just assuming there's something that I'm

Josh Anderson: 00:13:35

not seeing or I'm not getting.

Josh Anderson: 00:13:36

So educate.

Josh Anderson: 00:13:38

So I like to turn that around and say, and just walk in like, I am wrong.

Josh Anderson: 00:13:42

Tell me why I'm wrong and I hope I am wrong and it's just for whatever

Josh Anderson: 00:13:47

I haven't perceived something, or whatever the answer might be.

Josh Anderson: 00:13:51

But I like to open the door like that.

Josh Anderson: 00:13:53

So what's not Bob?

Josh Anderson: 00:13:55

You suck at C Sharp, Bob.

Josh Anderson: 00:13:57

JavaScript is the worst thing you've ever written.

Josh Anderson: 00:13:59

Whatever the topic might be, but I, that's my opening volley is to provide

Josh Anderson: 00:14:05

them a safe space of, Oh, there's a gap.

Josh Anderson: 00:14:07

Like you don't, like you haven't seen this.

Josh Anderson: 00:14:08

Well, let me educate you, Josh.

Josh Anderson: 00:14:10

And then they do that and hopefully they do that and everything's in a

Josh Anderson: 00:14:13

much better spot and you all walk away or they don't educate you and.

Josh Anderson: 00:14:20

You can have the further discussion, but that's how I like to open the

Josh Anderson: 00:14:23

door and get the party started.

Bob: 00:14:27

Well, it's, I mean, I remember a crucial or radical

Bob: 00:14:29

candor in, in one of the videos.

Bob: 00:14:31

She says, We're having radical radically candid conversations so

Bob: 00:14:36

that either I, your thinking can be changed or my thinking can be changed.

Bob: 00:14:40

And your leading with my thinking can be changed.

Bob: 00:14:43

I'm this, Correct, correct me or I have some wrong thinking, whatever.

Bob: 00:14:48

But you have the relationship built so that we're coming out of it

Bob: 00:14:51

and it's so it's not just one way.

Bob: 00:14:53

think another tool in providing feedback is don't enter

Bob: 00:14:57

assuming that you are Right.

Bob: 00:14:59

It's a real, like, like the mental model was, I'm a hundred percent

Bob: 00:15:01

right and you're, and you're a hundred percent wrong or 0%.

Bob: 00:15:05

Right.

Bob: 00:15:06

Is a really bad model, seek to understand.

Bob: 00:15:09

Even if you, even if every ounce you're being says, let's say someone

Bob: 00:15:13

has broken a company policy, right?

Bob: 00:15:16

Someone's broken, it's not dangerous, but they've broken a po a serious

Bob: 00:15:19

policy, and it's black and white, so there's no argument about it, right?

Bob: 00:15:25

And you're having that and you're giving them that feedback.

Bob: 00:15:28

I'd still go in not with a hundred.

Bob: 00:15:31

I'd want to, I'd to, to Josh's point, it's explore.

Bob: 00:15:34

I've seen you right?

Bob: 00:15:36

I think you broke in the policy.

Bob: 00:15:38

Please meet me here.

Bob: 00:15:39

Tell me more about that, and then really listen.

Bob: 00:15:42

That's a much more effective, I think balancing act, the

Bob: 00:15:45

power dynamics come into play.

Bob: 00:15:47

Yeah.

Bob: 00:15:47

If what?

Bob: 00:15:47

That feedback we got Josh from in Oh my God.

Bob: 00:15:52

What's the darn tool?

Bob: 00:15:54

Discord.

Bob: 00:15:54

The discord.

Bob: 00:15:55

Yeah.

Josh Anderson: 00:15:56

Stop.

Josh Anderson: 00:15:57

Just everybody go there.

Josh Anderson: 00:15:58

Everybody Listen.

Josh Anderson: 00:15:59

I need all of our listeners to please join the Discord and make

Josh Anderson: 00:16:04

it the most vibrant community ever because Bob refuses to use the tool.

Josh Anderson: 00:16:11

So please, please do your part in helping bring Bob into the 21st century.

Josh Anderson: 00:16:19

I'm asking you.

Josh Anderson: 00:16:20

I'm begging you.

Josh Anderson: 00:16:21

Please help this happen.

Josh Anderson: 00:16:23

Okay.

Josh Anderson: 00:16:23

Sorry

Bob: 00:16:24

Bob.

Bob: 00:16:24

Medic Kissers.

Bob: 00:16:24

That was a good role model of what not to do, to give someone feedback.

Bob: 00:16:29

Based on their age and their ability to use tools and things.

Bob: 00:16:32

So I I really, Oh, you're right, Josh.

Bob: 00:16:34

I really, I really appreciate you role modeling failure there, Josh.

Bob: 00:16:38

Yeah.

Bob: 00:16:39

Yeah.

Bob: 00:16:39

In, in giving me that feedback and embarrassing me in front

Bob: 00:16:42

of everyone, that I did

Josh Anderson: 00:16:43

not remove my biases at all.

Josh Anderson: 00:16:45

I probably, No, you did haven't

Bob: 00:16:46

done that . No, no.

Bob: 00:16:48

You, you did.

Bob: 00:16:50

You threw me, You threw me under.

Bob: 00:16:51

The medic has, but I did.

Bob: 00:16:53

Uh, but, but, uh, power dynamics come into play, like if you're giving feedback.

Bob: 00:16:58

Culture dynamics come into play.

Bob: 00:16:59

Yeah.

Bob: 00:16:59

One of the things I'd be concerned about if I'm a US engineer working

Bob: 00:17:03

in a distributed team with engineers from India or from Asia or anywhere

Bob: 00:17:08

actually just cross-cultural dynamics.

Bob: 00:17:12

You know what we say power.

Bob: 00:17:13

And it even gets more.

Bob: 00:17:16

Difficult to finagle because let's say it's an outsource, you're outsourcing

Bob: 00:17:21

it, it's a contract relationship.

Bob: 00:17:22

So you have cultural dynamics that are absolutely in play and

Bob: 00:17:26

then you have power dynamics.

Bob: 00:17:27

You're the customer, right?

Bob: 00:17:29

And those things are coming into play with the feedback.

Bob: 00:17:32

So that's part of that I think, prep.

Bob: 00:17:35

So what's different with the feedback?

Bob: 00:17:37

It's never good to come in guns blazing.

Bob: 00:17:39

The way I think of it is coming in with your guns blazing.

Bob: 00:17:43

The nuance, like thinking, preparing for your feedback session,

Bob: 00:17:48

almost creating a checklist where you think about cultural it.

Bob: 00:17:51

Does this have cultural dynamics that I need to prepare for or be aware of?

Bob: 00:17:55

Does it have power dynamics that are different that I need

Bob: 00:17:59

to prepare for and be aware of?

Bob: 00:18:01

Do I have a.

Bob: 00:18:02

And biases that I need to prepare for and be aware of, et cetera.

Bob: 00:18:07

And that's just the tip of the iceberg as far as that.

Bob: 00:18:09

I think that's some of the stuff that makes those

Bob: 00:18:11

conversations more challenging.

Bob: 00:18:13

Bec and I would say one quick thing, Josh.

Bob: 00:18:16

I'd say all feedback.

Bob: 00:18:18

If you don't want a positive outcome, then you need to check yourself out.

Bob: 00:18:22

So what I mean is I, whenever I do feedback, I'm not

Bob: 00:18:25

trying to demolish someone.

Bob: 00:18:26

I'm trying to get at least in my mind, to a positive outcome.

Bob: 00:18:29

So why do I go through that checklist to have a positive feedback experience, to

Bob: 00:18:36

have a positive outcome, not just to meet my but a positive sort of organizational.

Bob: 00:18:40

Not win the argument.

Bob: 00:18:42

Yeah, exactly.

Bob: 00:18:43

But to get that outcome, that's, And so the more of that nuance that's

Bob: 00:18:46

in there, if I have that goal, the more work I have to do, probably

Bob: 00:18:51

the more skill I have to have the more nuance to, to make it work out.

Bob: 00:18:55

Right.

Bob: 00:18:55

Yeah.

Josh Anderson: 00:18:55

I actually go into those discussions hoping that

Josh Anderson: 00:18:58

I lose, hoping that I'm wrong, hoping that there's that piece of

Josh Anderson: 00:19:02

information that they have, that I.

Josh Anderson: 00:19:04

Found out about yet, or figured out yet, or whatever it might be.

Josh Anderson: 00:19:07

One of the things that often helps me in those situations where your will starts to

Josh Anderson: 00:19:15

dwindle is I put myselves in their shoes.

Josh Anderson: 00:19:18

And I imagine what it would be like to find out months, years later that

Josh Anderson: 00:19:25

someone had a piece of feedback that could help me and they chose not.

Josh Anderson: 00:19:30

Provide it.

Josh Anderson: 00:19:30

So the closer I get to people and or teams, the more willing and aggressive

Josh Anderson: 00:19:36

I am to actually jump in and offer the feedback early and often, because

Josh Anderson: 00:19:42

otherwise I feel like I'm not being a good teammate, I'm not being a good friend,

Josh Anderson: 00:19:48

and I'm intentionally limiting their ability to grow in the ways that they

Josh Anderson: 00:19:53

want to grow by just withholding that.

Josh Anderson: 00:19:56

I end up feeling like a jerk if I don't do that.

Josh Anderson: 00:19:59

And maybe I've talked myself into that corner, but that's a thing that I have,

Josh Anderson: 00:20:03

and it doesn't mean that I like doing it, but there's times where like, Oh crap.

Josh Anderson: 00:20:06

I gotta go do this.

Josh Anderson: 00:20:07

I don't, I don't wanna put, like, I have to do this for the good of the

Josh Anderson: 00:20:14

company and the responsibility I have, but also for the good of that person.

Josh Anderson: 00:20:17

Otherwise I'm letting them down on what kind of leader, teammate, partner.

Bob: 00:20:21

In radical candor.

Bob: 00:20:23

Another snippet from the video is she makes the point and in the book,

Bob: 00:20:29

Feedback is a moral obligation.

Bob: 00:20:30

Now, her target audience is leaders, is the majority.

Bob: 00:20:34

It's actually not.

Bob: 00:20:35

I mean, it's radical Candor is general, you know, 360 degrees.

Bob: 00:20:40

So she's not, it's not a downward focus in the book at all, but it's

Bob: 00:20:45

this moral obligation she talks about.

Bob: 00:20:47

It's a moral obligation.

Bob: 00:20:49

It's so, it's not a nice to have, it's not optional.

Bob: 00:20:53

It's your obligation, you know, in your context.

Bob: 00:20:58

So if you're giving it, if you're a leader of a team, it's your

Bob: 00:21:01

moral obligation of the team.

Bob: 00:21:02

If you're a member of a team, team member to team member, you

Bob: 00:21:05

still just, just because you're flat on an org chart doesn't give

Bob: 00:21:08

you a get outta jail free card.

Bob: 00:21:10

You have a moral obligation, particularly if you're talking about

Bob: 00:21:13

someone or they're frustrating you.

Bob: 00:21:15

Very often folks will back bite, at a team level.

Bob: 00:21:17

Someone will be complaining about someone, like they'll complain as a

Bob: 00:21:20

boss, I've had people, they'll run to me and complain to me to do something,

Bob: 00:21:24

but they won't have the convers.

Bob: 00:21:26

And I'm like, that's your job.

Bob: 00:21:28

Have that they're your peer.

Bob: 00:21:29

I can of course do it, but it's less it's less personal.

Bob: 00:21:33

It's more like kindergarteny or something like that.

Bob: 00:21:36

It's you know, buck up and have that conversation.

Bob: 00:21:39

It's your obligation, I think, in all directions, peer to.

Bob: 00:21:43

You and I, Josh, all joking aside, you've given me feedback

Bob: 00:21:46

at hard feedback at times.

Bob: 00:21:47

I've given you hard feedback at times.

Bob: 00:21:49

Yep.

Bob: 00:21:49

Now it's based on relationship and things like that, but I don't shy away from it.

Bob: 00:21:53

It's, it really is, it's a gift.

Bob: 00:21:55

So, yeah, Agreed.

Josh Anderson: 00:21:57

And go ahead Pete.

Josh Anderson: 00:21:59

Just talk, just talking about the skill.

Josh Anderson: 00:22:01

I think we're semi qualified because of.

Josh Anderson: 00:22:06

But I don't think we're fully qualified to provide you with all

Josh Anderson: 00:22:10

the tools on this is how you provide the feedback in a smooth way.

Josh Anderson: 00:22:15

We have both referenced books, Radical Candor, that's been Bob's

Josh Anderson: 00:22:20

driving thing for quite a while.

Josh Anderson: 00:22:21

Crucial Conversations was older and before that, but that's the one that I've latched

Josh Anderson: 00:22:25

onto that I provide all of my teams with.

Josh Anderson: 00:22:28

And we read that and that's.

Josh Anderson: 00:22:30

I help them acquire the skills to have these difficult discussions

Josh Anderson: 00:22:34

across the team members.

Josh Anderson: 00:22:35

So invest in getting better in the skill piece and do it with like,

Josh Anderson: 00:22:41

there's, there's great resources that out there and we've named too but I'm

Josh Anderson: 00:22:45

sure that there, there are others.

Josh Anderson: 00:22:46

Those are the two that we've latched onto.

Josh Anderson: 00:22:47

But I am sure you have no shortage of resources if you do a little searching.

Bob: 00:22:54

I wanna come back to skill versus will again.

Bob: 00:22:59

So I have a mediocre amount of skill.

Bob: 00:23:01

Josh, maybe I've read crucial conversations and I have a conversation

Bob: 00:23:05

of feedback that needs to happen, but I don't feel skilled to do it.

Bob: 00:23:10

And, uh, but I have the will to do it, but I'm worried a little bit

Bob: 00:23:14

about, you know, doing a half job.

Bob: 00:23:16

right?

Bob: 00:23:16

I have a skills gap.

Bob: 00:23:18

I've always argued just do it.

Bob: 00:23:21

So we ha part of the moral obligation is have the darn

Bob: 00:23:24

conversation, even if it's crappy.

Bob: 00:23:27

You've got, even if you, let's say you do half, half well, right?

Bob: 00:23:32

You stutter, you forget your words.

Bob: 00:23:34

You personalize it when you shouldn't.

Bob: 00:23:37

You can go back, I would argue.

Bob: 00:23:38

You can go back and correct that, but you've given someone the gift of feedback.

Bob: 00:23:41

It was poorly crafted, but that's better than giving someone no feedback at all.

Bob: 00:23:46

And avoiding it and patting yourself on the back.

Bob: 00:23:48

What now?

Bob: 00:23:48

Again, get better over time, but I think folks focus on skill too much.

Bob: 00:23:54

So what

Josh Anderson: 00:23:55

you're saying is people would rather have a long preparation

Josh Anderson: 00:24:00

and ship this conversation once, instead of maybe shipping it as

Josh Anderson: 00:24:05

quickly as you have the minimum viable.

Josh Anderson: 00:24:08

And get it out there and then provide you with the opportunity

Josh Anderson: 00:24:10

to iterate on that and get better through maybe like retrospecting.

Josh Anderson: 00:24:15

So like you have the tools.

Josh Anderson: 00:24:17

If you're listening to this podcast, you already think it an agile manner.

Josh Anderson: 00:24:20

So apply the same principles to this.

Josh Anderson: 00:24:23

Get your first conversation out there, get it going.

Josh Anderson: 00:24:25

Learn stub your toe, Do all of those things, stub your toe.

Josh Anderson: 00:24:27

Otherwise

Bob: 00:24:28

you're not.

Bob: 00:24:28

And, and you know what we focus on the negatives, Josh.

Bob: 00:24:32

There is a possibility that the person could take this crapp

Bob: 00:24:34

really crafted and even help you.

Bob: 00:24:37

Yeah.

Bob: 00:24:37

Oh, what are you, Oh, you're Bob.

Bob: 00:24:39

Are you saying this or are you saying this?

Bob: 00:24:41

No, no, I'm not saying the first one.

Bob: 00:24:42

Thank you.

Bob: 00:24:43

I'm, I'm actually, I'm actually go le, you know, going into there and

Bob: 00:24:47

it's like, Oh, okay, I get that.

Bob: 00:24:49

Well, tell me a little bit more about that.

Bob: 00:24:51

So it is not out of the realm of possibility.

Bob: 00:24:54

That, that someone can like, like, help you with that or be amenable or

Bob: 00:24:58

be approachable or come back later and say, you know, or they, even if they

Bob: 00:25:01

blow up, I've had folks blow up or get, get really upset, but the next day they

Bob: 00:25:06

come in and they ask for more clarifying information and we have a great outcome.

Bob: 00:25:12

So that perfect conversation.

Bob: 00:25:15

Again, I'm not saying, I'm not telling everyone to suck at it or not

Bob: 00:25:19

to continue to refine your skills.

Bob: 00:25:21

Yeah.

Bob: 00:25:21

But just jump into these things.

Bob: 00:25:24

Yeah.

Bob: 00:25:24

Because it's real time.

Bob: 00:25:25

It goes back to that point of when's the best time to give feedback now, , Or soon?

Bob: 00:25:32

As soon I, once I, once Josh had a boss, and this happened, I, it

Bob: 00:25:36

may have happened to you, but like something happened nine months earlier.

Bob: 00:25:40

Yeah.

Bob: 00:25:41

And they waited for my annual review to give me feedback.

Bob: 00:25:44

Yes.

Bob: 00:25:44

And it wasn't a huge thing.

Bob: 00:25:46

But, and this wasn't even like now, but I forgot about it.

Bob: 00:25:49

And they triggered on it, I guess, and they're, they're talking to

Bob: 00:25:52

me about it and I'm like, I ha, I don't remember that at all.

Bob: 00:25:56

Yeah, I'm not.

Bob: 00:25:56

And they're like, Oh, you're getting defensive.

Bob: 00:25:59

I'm like, No, I honestly don't.

Bob: 00:26:02

, I have no recollection of that event whatsoever.

Bob: 00:26:05

It was nine months ago.

Bob: 00:26:07

I have four young kids at home.

Bob: 00:26:08

I don't have recollections of what they did a week ago for God's sakes,

Bob: 00:26:12

let alone like nine months ago.

Bob: 00:26:13

But it's true.

Bob: 00:26:14

Yeah.

Bob: 00:26:15

It, it's that, it's that relevancy.

Bob: 00:26:18

I agree.

Bob: 00:26:18

What else can we give the listeners?

Bob: 00:26:20

What do you think?

Josh Anderson: 00:26:21

I don't, I feel pretty solid about this.

Josh Anderson: 00:26:23

I think we hit some of the common stumbling blocks that people will

Josh Anderson: 00:26:28

have that will, to your point, stop them from getting that first volley.

Josh Anderson: 00:26:33

And allowing them to try and learn.

Josh Anderson: 00:26:36

We covered that.

Josh Anderson: 00:26:37

We've talked about the skill pieces and if you haven't read either of those

Josh Anderson: 00:26:40

books, please read one of those books.

Josh Anderson: 00:26:42

There's no reason not to.

Josh Anderson: 00:26:44

It will help you well beyond your job.

Josh Anderson: 00:26:46

It will help in regular life.

Josh Anderson: 00:26:48

So it's that's a, those are powerful books that are helpful across the board.

Josh Anderson: 00:26:52

So help yourself in any way, provide

Bob: 00:26:54

yourself that feedback.

Bob: 00:26:56

I think something to add, and I'm going back to the.

Bob: 00:27:00

Comments.

Bob: 00:27:01

Is going at these risky conversations.

Bob: 00:27:03

Up, Let's talk about risky.

Bob: 00:27:04

Okay.

Bob: 00:27:05

Feedback sessions up.

Bob: 00:27:06

I think you wanna be, So yes.

Bob: 00:27:08

Have them.

Bob: 00:27:09

Yes, have them in real time.

Bob: 00:27:10

Don't wait for all those skill.

Bob: 00:27:11

Have them give the, give folks the gift of feedback, but also put

Bob: 00:27:15

on your listening at and really listen to body language, et cetera.

Bob: 00:27:20

When you start it, I think some leaders can handle the truth

Bob: 00:27:24

and some leaders can handle the.

Bob: 00:27:25

. And so as you're giving feedback, let's say you're having let's say meta casters.

Bob: 00:27:29

You all report to Josh for a minute.

Bob: 00:27:31

I know.

Bob: 00:27:31

How scary is that and you're giving Josh feedback and default.

Bob: 00:27:36

Josh to me is, he's receptive.

Bob: 00:27:38

He would probably lean in, he'd ask some questions.

Bob: 00:27:41

He probably personalized it cuz he cares so much, he could probably

Bob: 00:27:43

feel the pain in him to some degree.

Bob: 00:27:45

So you, the emotion, you would feel the emotional field.

Bob: 00:27:48

It's making a difference.

Bob: 00:27:49

He's talking about things and what you're reading from him

Bob: 00:27:52

is he's receptive for feedback.

Bob: 00:27:55

I'll take a walk on the wild side and I bet Josh there's a chance

Bob: 00:27:58

that he would thank you honestly and profusely for giving him the feedback.

Bob: 00:28:02

Yep.

Bob: 00:28:02

So that's an indication to you that you have a safe environment.

Bob: 00:28:05

I'm probably over here in the extreme side of.

Bob: 00:28:09

Now there's a counterpoint on the other side where the person leans

Bob: 00:28:13

back, they close off, they raise their little head, they look down at you.

Bob: 00:28:19

It's the min you are they start getting defensive.

Bob: 00:28:21

They start micro man asking micro questions.

Bob: 00:28:24

Cla They're not really clarifying.

Bob: 00:28:26

They're trying to trick you.

Bob: 00:28:28

Uh, they're try, they're verbally sparring or they might get angry or

Bob: 00:28:32

they might just say, You're wrong, you don't have enough information.

Bob: 00:28:34

That's just absolutely wrong, but I'm not gonna share the information with

Bob: 00:28:37

you because you have no need to know.

Bob: 00:28:39

They get obnoxious so they get full of themselves.

Bob: 00:28:41

So what you need to be doing is reading in these power dynamic situations, read

Bob: 00:28:46

the landscape and the receptivity, and at some point you don't want to keep going.

Bob: 00:28:51

So Josh, you want to keep going back to the well, but not too much.

Bob: 00:28:54

Don't feed him minutia, I mean, Yes.

Bob: 00:28:58

Thank you.

Bob: 00:28:58

Right.

Bob: 00:28:59

So, oh, Josh is friendly to feedback.

Bob: 00:29:01

I'm gonna talk to him about his car and his dog and everything.

Bob: 00:29:04

Cool.

Bob: 00:29:05

Right?

Bob: 00:29:05

So you want to, you want sense and respond and on the, it's

Bob: 00:29:10

danger will Robinson side.

Bob: 00:29:11

You wanna sense and respond as well.

Bob: 00:29:13

Is it safe?

Bob: 00:29:14

, you don't want to just keep going there.

Bob: 00:29:16

So I think there's a sense and respond nature where you.

Bob: 00:29:19

The frequency and the candor that you give for your own.

Bob: 00:29:24

Now they're also telling you that's probably not gonna change much.

Bob: 00:29:27

. So they're also giving you cultural indicators of, you're

Bob: 00:29:30

not in Kansas anymore, so this is the way we handled the truth.

Bob: 00:29:35

You have to ask yourself, do I wanna stay here?

Bob: 00:29:37

Is this, do I want to interact this way?

Bob: 00:29:40

But you sure you know of your.

Bob: 00:29:43

Intelligence in that way.

Bob: 00:29:44

Your sense and respond intelligence.

Bob: 00:29:46

Yeah, the, Go ahead, Josh.

Josh Anderson: 00:29:48

The approach that I described earlier is always the way that

Josh Anderson: 00:29:51

I take with this because some leaders just aren't good at sharing things

Josh Anderson: 00:29:55

and many organizations, communication across the board is not good.

Josh Anderson: 00:30:01

So I always assume there's a piece of inform.

Josh Anderson: 00:30:05

That someone above me has that I don't have, because they forgot to share it.

Josh Anderson: 00:30:10

They didn't share it.

Josh Anderson: 00:30:11

They didn't think they could or should.

Josh Anderson: 00:30:13

So I go in assuming there's a piece of info that I don't have.

Josh Anderson: 00:30:17

So I say, Hey, why?

Josh Anderson: 00:30:18

Why aren't we doing this?

Josh Anderson: 00:30:20

It seems like if we did that would enable X, Y, and Z and

Josh Anderson: 00:30:23

things would be so much better.

Josh Anderson: 00:30:25

And then oftentimes that's where you see that light bulb

Josh Anderson: 00:30:28

go often when that lead like.

Josh Anderson: 00:30:30

Yeah, here's some context you don't have.

Josh Anderson: 00:30:33

Sorry about that.

Josh Anderson: 00:30:34

Like that's often what happens with me is like, Dang it, I'm so sorry I

Josh Anderson: 00:30:37

didn't provide that to you and the team sooner so that you didn't have to

Josh Anderson: 00:30:41

wrestle with this and spend time on it.

Josh Anderson: 00:30:43

But that's that.

Josh Anderson: 00:30:44

That's so often where a lot of misconceptions or misunderstandings

Josh Anderson: 00:30:49

lie for feedback up.

Bob: 00:30:53

The other thing, maybe we wrap it up this way, and this is a thought is we've

Bob: 00:30:58

talked about interviewing here before and I know you go into interviews like

Bob: 00:31:03

trying to test the cultural landscape.

Bob: 00:31:07

and also you could do that with feedback.

Bob: 00:31:09

So the place to start with sensing the feedback landscape of your environment

Bob: 00:31:13

is actually, to me, not necess the first time is not necessarily when

Bob: 00:31:17

you're in the environment, it's before you even join the environment.

Bob: 00:31:21

You can test the landscape of.

Bob: 00:31:24

You know, giving feedback and getting feedback and things like that.

Bob: 00:31:27

And are we compatible?

Bob: 00:31:29

And I would say do that.

Bob: 00:31:30

you know, sort of talk to, you know, if you're interviewing with your boss, ask

Bob: 00:31:34

them how do you like to handle feedback?

Bob: 00:31:36

Can you handle the truth?

Bob: 00:31:37

I mean, in a, with a, in a, you know, in a sort of playful way,

Bob: 00:31:42

but you know, how much of the truth do you usually like to hear?

Bob: 00:31:45

Give me an example of that.

Bob: 00:31:46

You can interview for feedback dynamics so you know what you're stepping into

Bob: 00:31:51

or you know, what their constraints.

Bob: 00:31:53

So that you can adjust your feedback to them.

Bob: 00:31:55

I do think we haven't talked about it much, but I do think we need

Bob: 00:31:58

to be nimble in our skills and our delivery mechanisms because it's our

Bob: 00:32:02

job for the fir person to receive it.

Bob: 00:32:05

Yeah.

Bob: 00:32:05

Or to do our job as much as we can so that they receive it.

Bob: 00:32:08

It doesn't mean we have to apply, a hundred tools, but we need to be flexible.

Bob: 00:32:13

It's not one.

Bob: 00:32:14

Yeah.

Josh Anderson: 00:32:15

And everybody's gonna be different.

Josh Anderson: 00:32:16

So you might, yeah, walk in with the same approach like I do, and

Josh Anderson: 00:32:20

then have to quickly adjust ju just based on how that person reacts.

Josh Anderson: 00:32:24

Because you never know until someone's put in that position.

Josh Anderson: 00:32:26

You might have an idea of how they're gonna react, but you're

Josh Anderson: 00:32:29

never really gonna know until that

Bob: 00:32:30

situation happens.

Bob: 00:32:32

I think the actual coaching, it's similar with these, going back to that arc.

Bob: 00:32:35

Yeah.

Bob: 00:32:36

The, the canne, the Canne model, which is the sense and respond model.

Bob: 00:32:41

It's really been helping.

Bob: 00:32:42

To articulate that part of a conversation is I need to be

Bob: 00:32:46

listening and sensing what's going on.

Bob: 00:32:49

Did that question land and watch their body language and sort

Bob: 00:32:53

of giving myself feedback and I need to respond differently.

Bob: 00:32:56

There's a nimbleness to effective feedback.

Bob: 00:32:59

I don't think radical candor or crucial conversations covers it enough.

Bob: 00:33:02

I think it's a practice thing and building that muscle.

Bob: 00:33:06

Of being able to sense and in real time, because you're talking, you're

Bob: 00:33:09

giving feedback, you are listening, but now you're processing what you're

Bob: 00:33:14

sensing and you're thinking about what adjustments do I need to make right in,

Bob: 00:33:18

in my feedback, in my own body language.

Bob: 00:33:21

Like, I'm biased.

Bob: 00:33:22

Oh, I need to remove that bias quickly, otherwise we're gonna crash and burn here.

Bob: 00:33:26

How do I remove the bias?

Bob: 00:33:27

And I'm not just pausing the conversation.

Bob: 00:33:29

So think in terms of sense and respond with the goal of having a.

Bob: 00:33:34

Outcome, right?

Bob: 00:33:35

Yep.

Bob: 00:33:35

The ultimate goal is, can I get that good outcome?

Bob: 00:33:40

What would be a simple trans sense response is Josh starts, I, he starts

Bob: 00:33:44

getting red, and my response, so this is simple, but he starts getting red and his

Bob: 00:33:48

head starts expanding and he's getting really aggravated and he's bigger than

Bob: 00:33:52

me and , and I , and I'm like, Well, why don't we, why don't we do this tomorrow?

Bob: 00:33:59

And, and we end it right there.

Bob: 00:34:01

So there's a sense, there's a very simplistic sense of

Josh Anderson: 00:34:04

respond.

Josh Anderson: 00:34:04

Let me get that.

Josh Anderson: 00:34:05

I don't don even say a word.

Josh Anderson: 00:34:06

I just nod.

Josh Anderson: 00:34:08

Exactly.

Josh Anderson: 00:34:08

Literally.

Josh Anderson: 00:34:09

Yeah.

Josh Anderson: 00:34:09

, Bob: let me, And you're gonna see like

Josh Anderson: 00:34:13

like a cartoon cloud trail as I get the hell out of the, of the, uh, gosh.

Josh Anderson: 00:34:18

All right.

Josh Anderson: 00:34:18

So I think the fork has been stuck.

Josh Anderson: 00:34:21

Bob,

Bob: 00:34:21

how do you feel about that?

Bob: 00:34:23

I feel good.

Bob: 00:34:24

Okay, good.

Bob: 00:34:25

So I think, I think that's, Is that our closing line?

Bob: 00:34:28

Yeah.

Bob: 00:34:28

Is that our, So from beautiful downtown Cary, North Carolina and and from and

Josh Anderson: 00:34:35

beautiful Fuqua Arena,

Bob: 00:34:38

Quite frisky, Fuqua Hy Andina, That's right.

Bob: 00:34:42

North Carolina Anderson, Josh

Josh Anderson: 00:34:45

Anderson.

Josh Anderson: 00:34:46

Dude, Lord, would you let me say my name?

Josh Anderson: 00:34:48

Can I say it now?

Josh Anderson: 00:34:50

I'm Josh and.