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226 - Tactics Of Great Feedback
Episode 22631st October 2022 • Meta-Cast • Bob Galen & Josh Anderson
00:00:00 00:34:58

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Feedback is a skill, and yet so few people have a chance to grow this skill. We help you find the tools and a few tactics that can kickstart your growth.

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Transcripts

Bob:

Bob,

Josh Anderson:

I listen.

Josh Anderson:

I don't need the attitude.

Josh Anderson:

I don't need the attitude.

Josh Anderson:

I don't need you to get defensive with a little bit of feedback.

Bob:

And you know what I say, Take your ass back into your cocoon.

Bob:

Okay?

Bob:

We got so much feedback about our feedback episode, we're doing more

Bob:

feedback talk and you know what?

Bob:

We even added more feedback to our discord server.

Bob:

That's right.

Bob:

Feedback everywhere.

Bob:

You know what.

Bob:

Like we said, it's a gift.

Bob:

We talk about that this episode, we talk about how you can tactically become great

Bob:

at providing feedback in all directions.

Bob:

So listen in to grow that skill.

Bob:

That's so few people have the opportunity to grow.

Bob:

Get better at feedback now.

Josh Anderson:

We got feedback about our episode, about feedback, which, Perfect.

Josh Anderson:

And you know what?

Josh Anderson:

In our Discord link below, we now have a episode feedback section where

Josh Anderson:

people can drop in their comments about previous episodes and what they think,

Josh Anderson:

what they'd like to hear us expand on.

Josh Anderson:

Any audio issues if there were too many words from a certain co-host

Josh Anderson:

or dogs barking in the background.

Josh Anderson:

You know?

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

All, all of those things are options, so yeah,

Bob:

you could do that.

Bob:

So feedback.

Bob:

It's like recursion, you know, I always got confused with recursion.

Bob:

You know that?

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

But it's magical once you

Bob:

figure it out, right?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

There's magic once you figure it out.

Bob:

But it's a li it's like recur, like feedback is like that, right?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

It's recur.

Bob:

It can be recursive.

Bob:

Hmm.

Bob:

So

Josh Anderson:

the request we had was to dig like one.

Josh Anderson:

Deeper where we talked about feedback in general, but this was, Hey, how

Josh Anderson:

do I give feedback to a teammate?

Josh Anderson:

Or maybe I have a distant stakeholder that we need to give some feedback too.

Josh Anderson:

Like I know Bob has told a story about going into executive rooms

Josh Anderson:

and saying, You have to be here.

Josh Anderson:

You have to be at this.

Josh Anderson:

Sprint review or demo, or whatever flavor you want to use.

Josh Anderson:

So those times where that crucial conversation is important, that means

Josh Anderson:

it's a highly important discussion and you're likely a little bit

Josh Anderson:

nervous about not screwing it up.

Josh Anderson:

So our goal today is to enable you to go have those conversations.

Bob:

I want to kick things off, Josh.

Bob:

This maybe.

Bob:

Just demolish it if it's off track.

Bob:

Okay.

Bob:

I'm ready.

Bob:

Before we, we get into tools and techniques.

Bob:

I think it's the will.

Bob:

So one of the things I struggle with when I listen to people, a lot of

Bob:

people are looking for, give me this checklist and we can get into tools.

Bob:

I'm not saying they not useful, but the root cause I find, I mean I've

Bob:

heard it in this last week, folks are looking for some safe way to give.

Bob:

or they're looking for someone else to do it.

Bob:

And my brain almost always goes to, you know, the biggest problem is

Bob:

whether it's up, sideways or down to your team member or whatnot.

Bob:

And radical candor helps.

Bob:

There's two dimensions to radical candor, but it's like, do you have

Bob:

the will, the willingness to do it?

Bob:

And usually the answer is no, I don't want to do it.

Bob:

And there's factors around that.

Bob:

But to me, part of it is just, it's like stepping in with courage.

Bob:

And then using that and then looking at, now how do I give it?

Bob:

But there's almost like this gap between almost everyone I meet

Bob:

particularly when it's, the feedback is more dangerous, if you will.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Or more risky.

Bob:

And folks find all kinds of reasons and excuses why not to give it.

Bob:

So to me it would be will I'm, I'm punting that out.

Bob:

There will first.

Bob:

And then, and that's the most important thing, because you could

Bob:

have the, the most, you know, like 20,000 tools in your pocket.

Bob:

Mm-hmm.

Bob:

. But if you don't want to do it, then you're not going to do it.

Bob:

You're not gonna give feedback.

Bob:

What.

Bob:

Any reactions

Josh Anderson:

to that?

Josh Anderson:

Yeah, I, there's two sides to that coin.

Josh Anderson:

I believe to be effective at it, you have to have both the will and the skill.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

And unfortunately, that skill is hardly ever taught.

Josh Anderson:

And even worse, the models or role models that you have from people

Josh Anderson:

giving feedback to you because they were never taught are pretty rough.

Josh Anderson:

So you don't have.

Josh Anderson:

Uh, safe pathway to understanding of this is how I do it well, because it's

Josh Anderson:

done so poorly or not at all across the board, which creates that lack of will

Josh Anderson:

because they know they don't have skill.

Josh Anderson:

So it compounds there and yes, will is the first and most important thing.

Josh Anderson:

You have to have to be able to do that.

Josh Anderson:

But I think the will is further reduced when there isn't a piece of

Josh Anderson:

skill there to go do it with confide.

Bob:

I, I mean, I think it's one of the factors.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

For ex, for example, I, I remember by parts of my career I was doing multiple

Bob:

pips per, uh, personal improvement plans.

Bob:

And because I had a large organization I was involved in, you know,

Bob:

several pips at the same time.

Bob:

And what I found is they drained the life out of me.

Bob:

They were really exhausting, right?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Because giving feedback to people and how active you had to be in that.

Bob:

And then there was someone else that needed feedback.

Bob:

And to be honest, and this may sound lame, meta casters and I actually

Bob:

don't care cuz it's the reality.

Bob:

I didn't have the will, I didn't have the energy for it.

Bob:

I literally said, I need to have this conversation, but I'm not going to because

Bob:

I just don't have, I don't have the energy to have yet another conversation.

Bob:

So that's, to me, I didn't have.

Bob:

, right?

Bob:

I had this and skills are not, or it's too dangerous.

Bob:

Like I think what I'm saying is I think people, you gotta get over

Bob:

the excuse train to some degree.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And then there's, there's almost a default excu excuse train in most people's brains.

Bob:

I'm thinking it's a, a bad way to.

Bob:

Phrase it, but, uh, because it's so, it's so hard.

Bob:

It's not just even safety.

Bob:

It freaking requires energy, right?

Bob:

, you would, you agree?

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

And the energy, starts well before the conversation and hangs around

Josh Anderson:

well after the conversation.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

Right?

Josh Anderson:

Because you're, because you want to deliver it so well,

Josh Anderson:

because you want to be respect.

Josh Anderson:

You're really thinking through how to do it, you're probably losing a little

Josh Anderson:

sleep because it's that important to you.

Josh Anderson:

And then you provide the feedback and there's a dialogue there and

Josh Anderson:

whether it goes well or not, you're still gonna replay what happened in

Josh Anderson:

that discussion in your mind for a day or two, which is good, right?

Josh Anderson:

Cuz you're giving yourself the feedback of this is how I get better.

Josh Anderson:

But also you relive some of the energy that you went through to put in to

Josh Anderson:

make that happen and some of the challenges that happen along the way.

Josh Anderson:

It is a, uh, very draining thing to do it well when you care.

Josh Anderson:

Now, if you do it poorly without care, then yeah, it's super easy, right?

Josh Anderson:

Just like on the internet, you can get on the internet and

Josh Anderson:

say anybody's terrible, know?

Josh Anderson:

and that's, that doesn't take anything but 20 keystrokes, so that's no big deal.

Josh Anderson:

But doing it well, doing it thoughtfully and respectfully, that'll,

Bob:

that'll wear a person out.

Bob:

And it's not done either.

Bob:

It's not a one shot.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Rarely is feet, so it's not, I could see it if it was like a 10 minute

Bob:

conversation and then you're, maybe then you have five minutes of prep and five

Bob:

minutes, So five, ten five or whatever.

Bob:

So it's double the angst time but the conversations

Bob:

are never like that, at least.

Bob:

, or very rarely.

Bob:

It's like an ongoing, like I'll give someone feedback

Bob:

and they might be defense.

Bob:

So then they come back for clarification, right?

Bob:

And inside I'm inside, I'm rolling my eyes.

Bob:

I'm like, crap.

Bob:

God, this is gonna be ugly.

Bob:

But I'm, I'm engaging, I'm trying cuz it's my job.

Bob:

And then there may be a follow up in the other way, or there may be retaliation.

Bob:

Well, you gave me feedback.

Bob:

Let me give you, let me give you years feedback.

Bob:

So all I'm getting at is, It.

Bob:

It's an ongoing, very often it's an ongoing event, so

Bob:

that exacerbates it as well.

Bob:

Yeah, that, Let's get into it.

Bob:

Let's get into the tools.

Bob:

I didn't mean to derail it.

Bob:

I think I can

Josh Anderson:

segue very well into those tools based on what you just said.

Josh Anderson:

So the part that Bob just talked about, about it's not a one shot deal is true

Josh Anderson:

because so often when you have that first discussion with somebody, they hear

Josh Anderson:

the first words that come outta your.

Josh Anderson:

Then they likely get angry or defensive or whatever.

Josh Anderson:

And then the background you're providing isn't hurt at all.

Josh Anderson:

So they just hear, you're not doing well enough, and then you provide all

Josh Anderson:

this feedback and reason why, But their brain has already shut off listening

Josh Anderson:

and they're processing and they're like, wtf, They're table flipping, They're

Josh Anderson:

doing all this stuff that's going on, and they haven't heard all of that.

Josh Anderson:

So you will have to revisit that.

Josh Anderson:

A couple minutes later, maybe you work them through that and

Josh Anderson:

then you say, Okay, let's go over that again, just so we're clear.

Josh Anderson:

But it will never work that there's a single moment or instance where

Josh Anderson:

you provide feedback that matters and it's all consumed right away.

Bob:

People react and sometimes people react by whimper.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Okay.

Josh Anderson:

But yeah, that's what, that's what my dog does,

Josh Anderson:

, Bob: So any other I think

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

I think, uh, today I was teaching a class online.

Josh Anderson:

It was a scrum gathering in Sri Lanka, and I was talking about having a conversation.

Josh Anderson:

So I think one skill is thinking in terms of a radical, you know, having

Josh Anderson:

a model where there's opening in my arc for coaching conversations

Josh Anderson:

or feedback conversations.

Josh Anderson:

I like a chess metaphor.

Josh Anderson:

Josh, you probably heard this at nausea sometimes.

Josh Anderson:

, but it's like opening moves, middle game, end game.

Josh Anderson:

And what I was asking folks to do in the workshop was put the arc on a piece

Josh Anderson:

of paper and I gave them a scenario.

Josh Anderson:

And I asked them to scribble some ideas around how would they open,

Josh Anderson:

given the scenario, how would you open, what would be the middle game?

Josh Anderson:

How would you close it?

Josh Anderson:

Would there be other conversations you would have?

Josh Anderson:

It's, what would the bouncing ball be like if it was the first conversation?

Josh Anderson:

You want to just establish rapport.

Josh Anderson:

Or maybe see how they're going.

Josh Anderson:

So you would ask more questions it towards a, if it was a second or a third

Josh Anderson:

conversation, feedback session, it might be contentious or something like that.

Josh Anderson:

. So prepare that.

Josh Anderson:

What's your mindset like cleaning up your biases before you go into the arc?

Josh Anderson:

Make sure that you're not, you know, if I've had five conver , like with you,

Josh Anderson:

Josh, if I've had five hard challenging conversations with you, and I know

Josh Anderson:

I have to have a conversation with you on Monday, I need to clean out

Josh Anderson:

myself so I don't, so I don't trigger.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

And I, I don't mentally say, Oh, this is gonna be hard before you even open your

Josh Anderson:

word on mon your mouth on Monday morning.

Josh Anderson:

I've already prejudge.

Josh Anderson:

Yep.

Josh Anderson:

And he's smiling cuz I, I might do that occasionally.

Josh Anderson:

So yeah.

Josh Anderson:

Cause

Josh Anderson:

I've never heard you say, I'm not picking, but I knew I was,

Bob:

I was hoping you would bring that example.

Bob:

I'm not, I hope this is a negative, but I'm not picking, but Yeah, exactly.

Bob:

And that's, that, that bias.

Bob:

So I think that arc is really useful, not just while while you're in, but pre.

Bob:

Like getting your brain lined up.

Bob:

So I go in clean.

Bob:

How am I gonna start?

Bob:

Maybe I'll start with some questions and then really listen hard.

Bob:

Like if, if I'm giving, if I've observed something, my open ended

Bob:

questions would be around empathy.

Bob:

Okay, I have this view.

Bob:

What's their view?

Bob:

Yeah, what's their perspective?

Bob:

And then shut up and listen.

Bob:

So my arc would be open-ended questions.

Bob:

Shut up.

Bob:

Damnit Bob, listen.

Bob:

And then really peel the.

Bob:

and that might be that conversation.

Bob:

So I found that having that in my mind knowing that I have to not

Bob:

just ask questions, but then move and start resolving something or

Bob:

exploring something, and then I have to close it with, and very often

Bob:

the close is, What did you hear?

Bob:

Like confirmation.

Bob:

This is, I heard we had a conversation.

Bob:

What are your takeaways, Josh?

Bob:

This is what I heard.

Bob:

What did you.

Bob:

, this is the agreements.

Bob:

I heard this is the observations.

Bob:

What did you, And then really listening into Josh to confirm, are we on the

Bob:

same page or did he trigger and he only heard like the first word and

Bob:

then he didn't hear anything else.

Bob:

Well then I have some work to do.

Bob:

Yep.

Bob:

So that might be sort of trigger was having an arc, thinking about

Bob:

opening, closing, things like that.

Bob:

What you think.

Bob:

Yeah,

Josh Anderson:

I certainly, because you have to understand how the

Josh Anderson:

feedback is gonna be received.

Josh Anderson:

In general, everybody's different but human emotions will follow

Josh Anderson:

pretty much the same path.

Josh Anderson:

One of the approaches that I prefer to take is what I've found over my time is

Josh Anderson:

that whenever there's a difference in opinion in how things are or should be

Josh Anderson:

done, There's usually a information gap that someone has a piece of information

Josh Anderson:

that I don't, so I go into it and I say, Bob, this is what I'm seeing, so

Josh Anderson:

that leads me to believe X, Y, and Z.

Josh Anderson:

But I'm not sure that's true.

Josh Anderson:

Can you walk me through your side of the story and help me understand that?

Josh Anderson:

Because I'm just assuming there's something that I'm

Josh Anderson:

not seeing or I'm not getting.

Josh Anderson:

So educate.

Josh Anderson:

So I like to turn that around and say, and just walk in like, I am wrong.

Josh Anderson:

Tell me why I'm wrong and I hope I am wrong and it's just for whatever

Josh Anderson:

I haven't perceived something, or whatever the answer might be.

Josh Anderson:

But I like to open the door like that.

Josh Anderson:

So what's not Bob?

Josh Anderson:

You suck at C Sharp, Bob.

Josh Anderson:

JavaScript is the worst thing you've ever written.

Josh Anderson:

Whatever the topic might be, but I, that's my opening volley is to provide

Josh Anderson:

them a safe space of, Oh, there's a gap.

Josh Anderson:

Like you don't, like you haven't seen this.

Josh Anderson:

Well, let me educate you, Josh.

Josh Anderson:

And then they do that and hopefully they do that and everything's in a

Josh Anderson:

much better spot and you all walk away or they don't educate you and.

Josh Anderson:

You can have the further discussion, but that's how I like to open the

Josh Anderson:

door and get the party started.

Bob:

Well, it's, I mean, I remember a crucial or radical

Bob:

candor in, in one of the videos.

Bob:

She says, We're having radical radically candid conversations so

Bob:

that either I, your thinking can be changed or my thinking can be changed.

Bob:

And your leading with my thinking can be changed.

Bob:

I'm this, Correct, correct me or I have some wrong thinking, whatever.

Bob:

But you have the relationship built so that we're coming out of it

Bob:

and it's so it's not just one way.

Bob:

think another tool in providing feedback is don't enter

Bob:

assuming that you are Right.

Bob:

It's a real, like, like the mental model was, I'm a hundred percent

Bob:

right and you're, and you're a hundred percent wrong or 0%.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Is a really bad model, seek to understand.

Bob:

Even if you, even if every ounce you're being says, let's say someone

Bob:

has broken a company policy, right?

Bob:

Someone's broken, it's not dangerous, but they've broken a po a serious

Bob:

policy, and it's black and white, so there's no argument about it, right?

Bob:

And you're having that and you're giving them that feedback.

Bob:

I'd still go in not with a hundred.

Bob:

I'd want to, I'd to, to Josh's point, it's explore.

Bob:

I've seen you right?

Bob:

I think you broke in the policy.

Bob:

Please meet me here.

Bob:

Tell me more about that, and then really listen.

Bob:

That's a much more effective, I think balancing act, the

Bob:

power dynamics come into play.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

If what?

Bob:

That feedback we got Josh from in Oh my God.

Bob:

What's the darn tool?

Bob:

Discord.

Bob:

The discord.

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

Stop.

Josh Anderson:

Just everybody go there.

Josh Anderson:

Everybody Listen.

Josh Anderson:

I need all of our listeners to please join the Discord and make

Josh Anderson:

it the most vibrant community ever because Bob refuses to use the tool.

Josh Anderson:

So please, please do your part in helping bring Bob into the 21st century.

Josh Anderson:

I'm asking you.

Josh Anderson:

I'm begging you.

Josh Anderson:

Please help this happen.

Josh Anderson:

Okay.

Josh Anderson:

Sorry

Bob:

Bob.

Bob:

Medic Kissers.

Bob:

That was a good role model of what not to do, to give someone feedback.

Bob:

Based on their age and their ability to use tools and things.

Bob:

So I I really, Oh, you're right, Josh.

Bob:

I really, I really appreciate you role modeling failure there, Josh.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

In, in giving me that feedback and embarrassing me in front

Bob:

of everyone, that I did

Josh Anderson:

not remove my biases at all.

Josh Anderson:

I probably, No, you did haven't

Bob:

done that . No, no.

Bob:

You, you did.

Bob:

You threw me, You threw me under.

Bob:

The medic has, but I did.

Bob:

Uh, but, but, uh, power dynamics come into play, like if you're giving feedback.

Bob:

Culture dynamics come into play.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

One of the things I'd be concerned about if I'm a US engineer working

Bob:

in a distributed team with engineers from India or from Asia or anywhere

Bob:

actually just cross-cultural dynamics.

Bob:

You know what we say power.

Bob:

And it even gets more.

Bob:

Difficult to finagle because let's say it's an outsource, you're outsourcing

Bob:

it, it's a contract relationship.

Bob:

So you have cultural dynamics that are absolutely in play and

Bob:

then you have power dynamics.

Bob:

You're the customer, right?

Bob:

And those things are coming into play with the feedback.

Bob:

So that's part of that I think, prep.

Bob:

So what's different with the feedback?

Bob:

It's never good to come in guns blazing.

Bob:

The way I think of it is coming in with your guns blazing.

Bob:

The nuance, like thinking, preparing for your feedback session,

Bob:

almost creating a checklist where you think about cultural it.

Bob:

Does this have cultural dynamics that I need to prepare for or be aware of?

Bob:

Does it have power dynamics that are different that I need

Bob:

to prepare for and be aware of?

Bob:

Do I have a.

Bob:

And biases that I need to prepare for and be aware of, et cetera.

Bob:

And that's just the tip of the iceberg as far as that.

Bob:

I think that's some of the stuff that makes those

Bob:

conversations more challenging.

Bob:

Bec and I would say one quick thing, Josh.

Bob:

I'd say all feedback.

Bob:

If you don't want a positive outcome, then you need to check yourself out.

Bob:

So what I mean is I, whenever I do feedback, I'm not

Bob:

trying to demolish someone.

Bob:

I'm trying to get at least in my mind, to a positive outcome.

Bob:

So why do I go through that checklist to have a positive feedback experience, to

Bob:

have a positive outcome, not just to meet my but a positive sort of organizational.

Bob:

Not win the argument.

Bob:

Yeah, exactly.

Bob:

But to get that outcome, that's, And so the more of that nuance that's

Bob:

in there, if I have that goal, the more work I have to do, probably

Bob:

the more skill I have to have the more nuance to, to make it work out.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

I actually go into those discussions hoping that

Josh Anderson:

I lose, hoping that I'm wrong, hoping that there's that piece of

Josh Anderson:

information that they have, that I.

Josh Anderson:

Found out about yet, or figured out yet, or whatever it might be.

Josh Anderson:

One of the things that often helps me in those situations where your will starts to

Josh Anderson:

dwindle is I put myselves in their shoes.

Josh Anderson:

And I imagine what it would be like to find out months, years later that

Josh Anderson:

someone had a piece of feedback that could help me and they chose not.

Josh Anderson:

Provide it.

Josh Anderson:

So the closer I get to people and or teams, the more willing and aggressive

Josh Anderson:

I am to actually jump in and offer the feedback early and often, because

Josh Anderson:

otherwise I feel like I'm not being a good teammate, I'm not being a good friend,

Josh Anderson:

and I'm intentionally limiting their ability to grow in the ways that they

Josh Anderson:

want to grow by just withholding that.

Josh Anderson:

I end up feeling like a jerk if I don't do that.

Josh Anderson:

And maybe I've talked myself into that corner, but that's a thing that I have,

Josh Anderson:

and it doesn't mean that I like doing it, but there's times where like, Oh crap.

Josh Anderson:

I gotta go do this.

Josh Anderson:

I don't, I don't wanna put, like, I have to do this for the good of the

Josh Anderson:

company and the responsibility I have, but also for the good of that person.

Josh Anderson:

Otherwise I'm letting them down on what kind of leader, teammate, partner.

Bob:

In radical candor.

Bob:

Another snippet from the video is she makes the point and in the book,

Bob:

Feedback is a moral obligation.

Bob:

Now, her target audience is leaders, is the majority.

Bob:

It's actually not.

Bob:

I mean, it's radical Candor is general, you know, 360 degrees.

Bob:

So she's not, it's not a downward focus in the book at all, but it's

Bob:

this moral obligation she talks about.

Bob:

It's a moral obligation.

Bob:

It's so, it's not a nice to have, it's not optional.

Bob:

It's your obligation, you know, in your context.

Bob:

So if you're giving it, if you're a leader of a team, it's your

Bob:

moral obligation of the team.

Bob:

If you're a member of a team, team member to team member, you

Bob:

still just, just because you're flat on an org chart doesn't give

Bob:

you a get outta jail free card.

Bob:

You have a moral obligation, particularly if you're talking about

Bob:

someone or they're frustrating you.

Bob:

Very often folks will back bite, at a team level.

Bob:

Someone will be complaining about someone, like they'll complain as a

Bob:

boss, I've had people, they'll run to me and complain to me to do something,

Bob:

but they won't have the convers.

Bob:

And I'm like, that's your job.

Bob:

Have that they're your peer.

Bob:

I can of course do it, but it's less it's less personal.

Bob:

It's more like kindergarteny or something like that.

Bob:

It's you know, buck up and have that conversation.

Bob:

It's your obligation, I think, in all directions, peer to.

Bob:

You and I, Josh, all joking aside, you've given me feedback

Bob:

at hard feedback at times.

Bob:

I've given you hard feedback at times.

Bob:

Yep.

Bob:

Now it's based on relationship and things like that, but I don't shy away from it.

Bob:

It's, it really is, it's a gift.

Bob:

So, yeah, Agreed.

Josh Anderson:

And go ahead Pete.

Josh Anderson:

Just talk, just talking about the skill.

Josh Anderson:

I think we're semi qualified because of.

Josh Anderson:

But I don't think we're fully qualified to provide you with all

Josh Anderson:

the tools on this is how you provide the feedback in a smooth way.

Josh Anderson:

We have both referenced books, Radical Candor, that's been Bob's

Josh Anderson:

driving thing for quite a while.

Josh Anderson:

Crucial Conversations was older and before that, but that's the one that I've latched

Josh Anderson:

onto that I provide all of my teams with.

Josh Anderson:

And we read that and that's.

Josh Anderson:

I help them acquire the skills to have these difficult discussions

Josh Anderson:

across the team members.

Josh Anderson:

So invest in getting better in the skill piece and do it with like,

Josh Anderson:

there's, there's great resources that out there and we've named too but I'm

Josh Anderson:

sure that there, there are others.

Josh Anderson:

Those are the two that we've latched onto.

Josh Anderson:

But I am sure you have no shortage of resources if you do a little searching.

Bob:

I wanna come back to skill versus will again.

Bob:

So I have a mediocre amount of skill.

Bob:

Josh, maybe I've read crucial conversations and I have a conversation

Bob:

of feedback that needs to happen, but I don't feel skilled to do it.

Bob:

And, uh, but I have the will to do it, but I'm worried a little bit

Bob:

about, you know, doing a half job.

Bob:

right?

Bob:

I have a skills gap.

Bob:

I've always argued just do it.

Bob:

So we ha part of the moral obligation is have the darn

Bob:

conversation, even if it's crappy.

Bob:

You've got, even if you, let's say you do half, half well, right?

Bob:

You stutter, you forget your words.

Bob:

You personalize it when you shouldn't.

Bob:

You can go back, I would argue.

Bob:

You can go back and correct that, but you've given someone the gift of feedback.

Bob:

It was poorly crafted, but that's better than giving someone no feedback at all.

Bob:

And avoiding it and patting yourself on the back.

Bob:

What now?

Bob:

Again, get better over time, but I think folks focus on skill too much.

Bob:

So what

Josh Anderson:

you're saying is people would rather have a long preparation

Josh Anderson:

and ship this conversation once, instead of maybe shipping it as

Josh Anderson:

quickly as you have the minimum viable.

Josh Anderson:

And get it out there and then provide you with the opportunity

Josh Anderson:

to iterate on that and get better through maybe like retrospecting.

Josh Anderson:

So like you have the tools.

Josh Anderson:

If you're listening to this podcast, you already think it an agile manner.

Josh Anderson:

So apply the same principles to this.

Josh Anderson:

Get your first conversation out there, get it going.

Josh Anderson:

Learn stub your toe, Do all of those things, stub your toe.

Josh Anderson:

Otherwise

Bob:

you're not.

Bob:

And, and you know what we focus on the negatives, Josh.

Bob:

There is a possibility that the person could take this crapp

Bob:

really crafted and even help you.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Oh, what are you, Oh, you're Bob.

Bob:

Are you saying this or are you saying this?

Bob:

No, no, I'm not saying the first one.

Bob:

Thank you.

Bob:

I'm, I'm actually, I'm actually go le, you know, going into there and

Bob:

it's like, Oh, okay, I get that.

Bob:

Well, tell me a little bit more about that.

Bob:

So it is not out of the realm of possibility.

Bob:

That, that someone can like, like, help you with that or be amenable or

Bob:

be approachable or come back later and say, you know, or they, even if they

Bob:

blow up, I've had folks blow up or get, get really upset, but the next day they

Bob:

come in and they ask for more clarifying information and we have a great outcome.

Bob:

So that perfect conversation.

Bob:

Again, I'm not saying, I'm not telling everyone to suck at it or not

Bob:

to continue to refine your skills.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

But just jump into these things.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Because it's real time.

Bob:

It goes back to that point of when's the best time to give feedback now, , Or soon?

Bob:

As soon I, once I, once Josh had a boss, and this happened, I, it

Bob:

may have happened to you, but like something happened nine months earlier.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And they waited for my annual review to give me feedback.

Bob:

Yes.

Bob:

And it wasn't a huge thing.

Bob:

But, and this wasn't even like now, but I forgot about it.

Bob:

And they triggered on it, I guess, and they're, they're talking to

Bob:

me about it and I'm like, I ha, I don't remember that at all.

Bob:

Yeah, I'm not.

Bob:

And they're like, Oh, you're getting defensive.

Bob:

I'm like, No, I honestly don't.

Bob:

, I have no recollection of that event whatsoever.

Bob:

It was nine months ago.

Bob:

I have four young kids at home.

Bob:

I don't have recollections of what they did a week ago for God's sakes,

Bob:

let alone like nine months ago.

Bob:

But it's true.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

It, it's that, it's that relevancy.

Bob:

I agree.

Bob:

What else can we give the listeners?

Bob:

What do you think?

Josh Anderson:

I don't, I feel pretty solid about this.

Josh Anderson:

I think we hit some of the common stumbling blocks that people will

Josh Anderson:

have that will, to your point, stop them from getting that first volley.

Josh Anderson:

And allowing them to try and learn.

Josh Anderson:

We covered that.

Josh Anderson:

We've talked about the skill pieces and if you haven't read either of those

Josh Anderson:

books, please read one of those books.

Josh Anderson:

There's no reason not to.

Josh Anderson:

It will help you well beyond your job.

Josh Anderson:

It will help in regular life.

Josh Anderson:

So it's that's a, those are powerful books that are helpful across the board.

Josh Anderson:

So help yourself in any way, provide

Bob:

yourself that feedback.

Bob:

I think something to add, and I'm going back to the.

Bob:

Comments.

Bob:

Is going at these risky conversations.

Bob:

Up, Let's talk about risky.

Bob:

Okay.

Bob:

Feedback sessions up.

Bob:

I think you wanna be, So yes.

Bob:

Have them.

Bob:

Yes, have them in real time.

Bob:

Don't wait for all those skill.

Bob:

Have them give the, give folks the gift of feedback, but also put

Bob:

on your listening at and really listen to body language, et cetera.

Bob:

When you start it, I think some leaders can handle the truth

Bob:

and some leaders can handle the.

Bob:

. And so as you're giving feedback, let's say you're having let's say meta casters.

Bob:

You all report to Josh for a minute.

Bob:

I know.

Bob:

How scary is that and you're giving Josh feedback and default.

Bob:

Josh to me is, he's receptive.

Bob:

He would probably lean in, he'd ask some questions.

Bob:

He probably personalized it cuz he cares so much, he could probably

Bob:

feel the pain in him to some degree.

Bob:

So you, the emotion, you would feel the emotional field.

Bob:

It's making a difference.

Bob:

He's talking about things and what you're reading from him

Bob:

is he's receptive for feedback.

Bob:

I'll take a walk on the wild side and I bet Josh there's a chance

Bob:

that he would thank you honestly and profusely for giving him the feedback.

Bob:

Yep.

Bob:

So that's an indication to you that you have a safe environment.

Bob:

I'm probably over here in the extreme side of.

Bob:

Now there's a counterpoint on the other side where the person leans

Bob:

back, they close off, they raise their little head, they look down at you.

Bob:

It's the min you are they start getting defensive.

Bob:

They start micro man asking micro questions.

Bob:

Cla They're not really clarifying.

Bob:

They're trying to trick you.

Bob:

Uh, they're try, they're verbally sparring or they might get angry or

Bob:

they might just say, You're wrong, you don't have enough information.

Bob:

That's just absolutely wrong, but I'm not gonna share the information with

Bob:

you because you have no need to know.

Bob:

They get obnoxious so they get full of themselves.

Bob:

So what you need to be doing is reading in these power dynamic situations, read

Bob:

the landscape and the receptivity, and at some point you don't want to keep going.

Bob:

So Josh, you want to keep going back to the well, but not too much.

Bob:

Don't feed him minutia, I mean, Yes.

Bob:

Thank you.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

So, oh, Josh is friendly to feedback.

Bob:

I'm gonna talk to him about his car and his dog and everything.

Bob:

Cool.

Bob:

Right?

Bob:

So you want to, you want sense and respond and on the, it's

Bob:

danger will Robinson side.

Bob:

You wanna sense and respond as well.

Bob:

Is it safe?

Bob:

, you don't want to just keep going there.

Bob:

So I think there's a sense and respond nature where you.

Bob:

The frequency and the candor that you give for your own.

Bob:

Now they're also telling you that's probably not gonna change much.

Bob:

. So they're also giving you cultural indicators of, you're

Bob:

not in Kansas anymore, so this is the way we handled the truth.

Bob:

You have to ask yourself, do I wanna stay here?

Bob:

Is this, do I want to interact this way?

Bob:

But you sure you know of your.

Bob:

Intelligence in that way.

Bob:

Your sense and respond intelligence.

Bob:

Yeah, the, Go ahead, Josh.

Josh Anderson:

The approach that I described earlier is always the way that

Josh Anderson:

I take with this because some leaders just aren't good at sharing things

Josh Anderson:

and many organizations, communication across the board is not good.

Josh Anderson:

So I always assume there's a piece of inform.

Josh Anderson:

That someone above me has that I don't have, because they forgot to share it.

Josh Anderson:

They didn't share it.

Josh Anderson:

They didn't think they could or should.

Josh Anderson:

So I go in assuming there's a piece of info that I don't have.

Josh Anderson:

So I say, Hey, why?

Josh Anderson:

Why aren't we doing this?

Josh Anderson:

It seems like if we did that would enable X, Y, and Z and

Josh Anderson:

things would be so much better.

Josh Anderson:

And then oftentimes that's where you see that light bulb

Josh Anderson:

go often when that lead like.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah, here's some context you don't have.

Josh Anderson:

Sorry about that.

Josh Anderson:

Like that's often what happens with me is like, Dang it, I'm so sorry I

Josh Anderson:

didn't provide that to you and the team sooner so that you didn't have to

Josh Anderson:

wrestle with this and spend time on it.

Josh Anderson:

But that's that.

Josh Anderson:

That's so often where a lot of misconceptions or misunderstandings

Josh Anderson:

lie for feedback up.

Bob:

The other thing, maybe we wrap it up this way, and this is a thought is we've

Bob:

talked about interviewing here before and I know you go into interviews like

Bob:

trying to test the cultural landscape.

Bob:

and also you could do that with feedback.

Bob:

So the place to start with sensing the feedback landscape of your environment

Bob:

is actually, to me, not necess the first time is not necessarily when

Bob:

you're in the environment, it's before you even join the environment.

Bob:

You can test the landscape of.

Bob:

You know, giving feedback and getting feedback and things like that.

Bob:

And are we compatible?

Bob:

And I would say do that.

Bob:

you know, sort of talk to, you know, if you're interviewing with your boss, ask

Bob:

them how do you like to handle feedback?

Bob:

Can you handle the truth?

Bob:

I mean, in a, with a, in a, you know, in a sort of playful way,

Bob:

but you know, how much of the truth do you usually like to hear?

Bob:

Give me an example of that.

Bob:

You can interview for feedback dynamics so you know what you're stepping into

Bob:

or you know, what their constraints.

Bob:

So that you can adjust your feedback to them.

Bob:

I do think we haven't talked about it much, but I do think we need

Bob:

to be nimble in our skills and our delivery mechanisms because it's our

Bob:

job for the fir person to receive it.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Or to do our job as much as we can so that they receive it.

Bob:

It doesn't mean we have to apply, a hundred tools, but we need to be flexible.

Bob:

It's not one.

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

And everybody's gonna be different.

Josh Anderson:

So you might, yeah, walk in with the same approach like I do, and

Josh Anderson:

then have to quickly adjust ju just based on how that person reacts.

Josh Anderson:

Because you never know until someone's put in that position.

Josh Anderson:

You might have an idea of how they're gonna react, but you're

Josh Anderson:

never really gonna know until that

Bob:

situation happens.

Bob:

I think the actual coaching, it's similar with these, going back to that arc.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

The, the canne, the Canne model, which is the sense and respond model.

Bob:

It's really been helping.

Bob:

To articulate that part of a conversation is I need to be

Bob:

listening and sensing what's going on.

Bob:

Did that question land and watch their body language and sort

Bob:

of giving myself feedback and I need to respond differently.

Bob:

There's a nimbleness to effective feedback.

Bob:

I don't think radical candor or crucial conversations covers it enough.

Bob:

I think it's a practice thing and building that muscle.

Bob:

Of being able to sense and in real time, because you're talking, you're

Bob:

giving feedback, you are listening, but now you're processing what you're

Bob:

sensing and you're thinking about what adjustments do I need to make right in,

Bob:

in my feedback, in my own body language.

Bob:

Like, I'm biased.

Bob:

Oh, I need to remove that bias quickly, otherwise we're gonna crash and burn here.

Bob:

How do I remove the bias?

Bob:

And I'm not just pausing the conversation.

Bob:

So think in terms of sense and respond with the goal of having a.

Bob:

Outcome, right?

Bob:

Yep.

Bob:

The ultimate goal is, can I get that good outcome?

Bob:

What would be a simple trans sense response is Josh starts, I, he starts

Bob:

getting red, and my response, so this is simple, but he starts getting red and his

Bob:

head starts expanding and he's getting really aggravated and he's bigger than

Bob:

me and , and I , and I'm like, Well, why don't we, why don't we do this tomorrow?

Bob:

And, and we end it right there.

Bob:

So there's a sense, there's a very simplistic sense of

Josh Anderson:

respond.

Josh Anderson:

Let me get that.

Josh Anderson:

I don't don even say a word.

Josh Anderson:

I just nod.

Josh Anderson:

Exactly.

Josh Anderson:

Literally.

Josh Anderson:

Yeah.

Josh Anderson:

, Bob: let me, And you're gonna see like

Josh Anderson:

like a cartoon cloud trail as I get the hell out of the, of the, uh, gosh.

Josh Anderson:

All right.

Josh Anderson:

So I think the fork has been stuck.

Josh Anderson:

Bob,

Bob:

how do you feel about that?

Bob:

I feel good.

Bob:

Okay, good.

Bob:

So I think, I think that's, Is that our closing line?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Is that our, So from beautiful downtown Cary, North Carolina and and from and

Josh Anderson:

beautiful Fuqua Arena,

Bob:

Quite frisky, Fuqua Hy Andina, That's right.

Bob:

North Carolina Anderson, Josh

Josh Anderson:

Anderson.

Josh Anderson:

Dude, Lord, would you let me say my name?

Josh Anderson:

Can I say it now?

Josh Anderson:

I'm Josh and.