Special Guest: Jonny Baker

Mentioned in this episode:

Q4 Webinar: The Path from “I” to “We”: Extending Christian Community to the Neighborhood

Jonny Baker: We've changed the air. And to me, this is like the critical thing in any theological education or any education institute: What air are your students breathing and is it air that they're breathing that helps them, you know, celebrate the gift of who they are and what they bring and what they feel God has called them to do? And in our case, is it air of possibility and imagination?

Terri Elton: Welcome to Pivot. I'm Terri Elton from Luther Seminary.

Dwight Zscheile: And I'm Dwight Zscheile also from Luther Seminary. And it is our pleasure to welcome you to this episode and to welcome our guest, Johnny Baker. Johnny is a longtime leader in innovative ministry in the UK context and currently serves as Director of Pioneer Training at the Church Mission Society, which is based in Oxford. He is the author of a number of books, including a recent one that has just come out called Pioneer Practice in the last year. And Johnny, welcome to Pivot. We're so excited to have you here on the show.

Jonny Baker: It's great to be with you. Thanks so much for inviting me.

Dwight Zscheile: I wonder if we could begin just hearing a little bit about your story. Again, you've been involved in innovative things in Mission in the church from for many decades. How did you get involved in fresh expressions in the mixed ecology? And tell us a bit about your story.

Jonny Baker: Well, I've got involved through working with young people, and I think that in many ways in the UK that's where the questions and the adventure started. I think working with young people outside of churches, I worked for Youth for Christ for a while in schools and we set up a nightclub for young people, but we kind of quickly realised that the journey to joining church as it was, felt like quite a big step for them. And it was reading stories of cross-cultural mission, I think, that began to give us clues about what would it look like to at least do discipleship in their culture rather than expecting them to join. Oh, so this is rewinding at least 30 years or so, maybe a bit more. Yeah. So that was the way in. And I think there were a lot of youth workers on the same journey and there was a lot of creative practice. I mean, at that time, conversations about church were quite controversial. So we used to talk about, when we ran this nightclub, we used to describe it as discipling young people in the context of their own culture. But, you know, we were kind of growing a church, really, but we didn't want to call it a youth church because the funding might stop. And then I think after that, but, you know, people gradually realised there were a number of things went on. One was there was a wider discussion about the shift to postmodernity that was happening and feeling like the church needed to grapple with that in some way. There was a bigger cultural change going on and then I think quickly, you know, those of us in youth ministry realised that we had very similar questions around the gap between some of their culture and ways of being and the possibilities of church that were on the map. So, so it began to spread into that. I mean initially through a couple of things that weren't called Fresh Expressions, there was a movement in the UK called Alternative Worship that was very innovative and creative and then I think Emerging Church. But yeah, maybe after a decade or so, the Church of England published a report looking at the things that were bubbling up around the edges of the church and church planting and, and came up with this phrase fresh expressions. So that's where that came from. But there was a good ten, 15 years of stuff bubbling up before that, I think. So that was my journey into it.

Terri Elton: That's awesome. Your context is very different than ours in many ways, and in some ways our culture's becoming more like yours, especially around people's affiliation with church or not. Talk a little bit about the state of faith and belief in God and all of that in the UK that both was happening then and what you see now.

Jonny Baker: Yeah, I mean, we've experienced a pattern of decline in church attendance for some years. I mean, there used to be statistics, you know, doom and gloom for, for many years and maybe there still are. So. So that was a kind of story. But actually, we just recently had results of the latest census. And for the first time, we're we're a minority Christian country. So less than 50% of people are saying that they're Christians. So in Church Mission Society, the team that I lead is focused on mission in Britain and we are focused really, we are saying is post-Christian Britain, so that, you know, we're no longer a Christian country. And I think what that means in the landscape is that there are people for whom they have no experience of church. It's not on their radar at all. Now, I think there's some creative possibilities related to that because in some ways it means they don't have any of the baggage that some people have, if you know what I mean. But it also means that there's some challenges and I think it's quite a cross-cultural situation. I mean, one of the things I found interesting was that an organization did some research around church in the wider culture, so they asked people that don't go to church on a scale of 1 to 5 how likely they are to go. And 85% of those people that don't go said they're either never going to go or they're very unlikely to go. So that made me think, well, there's so much energy and effort that goes into making our churches better, you know, doing better worship, better discipleship, better mid-week groups or whatever it is. But actually, you know, however well we do that, there's a massive group of people that we're never going to be engaged with. So I think the idea of pioneering, which is about saying, you know, other people are focused on that. We're interested in focusing beyond that natural fringe to go and be where people are, build community, do good in the community. And through that, you know, see what happens by way of sharing Christ and grow fresh expressions of church in that space. I'm pretty excited about that, to be honest. You know, I think it's a challenge. It's an adventure. And, you know, maybe it's a bit of a relief to be a minority. I don't know.

Dwight Zscheile: So I'd love to hear a bit about your new book. It's called Pioneer Practice. Now, the word pioneer in the US context has some problematic historical associations, but you use it in a particular way in the UK who are pioneers and share some of the insights from the research and the stories in this new book.

Jonny Baker: Yeah, thanks Dwight . Yeah, I realize the word pioneer plays out differently in different cultures. It tends to be used in the UK. I've actually got a piece, you know, a file on my desktop where I write down when I hear the word used. So it's kind of used. For example, you know, the, the women's football team pioneers in football, it just means people who are kind of on the front end of something or starting something new. The reason we use the word actually is that when the Church of England published a report about all of these new things, they recommended that the church needed to recognise a different kind of leader who was able to start these things rather than a pastor teacher, perhaps more of, I don't know, evangelist, prophet, apostle, if you like, that EPHESIANS framework or, yeah, but just someone who's a bit entrepreneurial, able to go and be comfortable in spaces where the church isn't, rather than just, you know, seeking to build the church up. I think that's the sort of thing that we mean.

Dwight Zscheile: And in your book you have a really helpful map of different forms of innovative ministry. You're talking about it as a pioneer spectrum, I think. Can you share a little bit about that so that our readers can understand the variety of what is included under church planting, fresh expressions, and social enterprise, et cetera, and the diversity of those different kinds of forms of ministry?

Jonny Baker: Yeah, I mean that spectrum people have really liked and found helpful. It's origins are interesting in that I think there were a number of people who were more focused on church planting as a form of starting new things that were struggling to understand different kinds of pioneering. And the church planting, you know, in the in the UK tends to be, you know, a model where you might have a team of people that go and they start a worship service and invite people along. It's very much an attractional kind of thing, whereas pioneers often are much more invisible in terms of what they're doing. So they might, you know, go live in a particular housing area that's quite deprived with some other people and just hang out, meet people, join in food banks or equivalent and participate with people for good. And it's out of that network of relationships and things might start to emerge, you know, and it might take a few years before a community of disciples starts in a home and so on. So it was kind of trying to help say, look, all of these things are valuable in the space. They fit different, different things. So maybe there's a spectrum of pioneering. That's where it came from. But as it's presented in the book now, I mean, I didn't create it. A couple of other people did. Yeah, it has on one end of it the sort of reproducing of what we have now. So let's say there's a new housing area and the Lutheran church want to start a new community, you know, go and start a church, a church plant that, we call that reproducing or replicating. And then the next kind of area on that would be adapting. So adapting in terms of innovation is taking something that already exists and adapting it for your context. So, you know, some of the things that have started are really out there in the UK, but actually most of the ways that people start new communities are quite ordinary and the way church has done them for decades. So one of the great ways of starting church is working with children and families. So there's a thing called messy church here that's quite popular. So in adapting might be, you know, taking initially somebody took working with toddlers, young children and parents and adapted it to become messy church and people adapting in their context. Then they're four of these, the third space on that spectrum is innovation. So so that would be perhaps more where the pioneering new communities comes in. It's, it's thinking, yeah, perhaps a bit more cross-cultural. So thinking how would we imagine the gospel connects with people in this culture and what might emerge through that? So one example in the book of that is there's a guy, David, who is on a housing estate in the East End of London, and he was connecting with guys who, I mean, don't think church is on their radar at all. But he ended up thinking what would be good to connect with them would be a boxing club. And out of that, he's grown a church around boxing. So confession is punching a punch bag. And he did this Compline, which I thought was great, you know, a quiet night service where you have a boxing ring and you ring a bell and there's sort of two minutes reflection or something in each corner and you move round so that, you know, it's much more kind of innovative in terms of the practice, in relation to the to the culture. And then the fourth one on the spectrum, we sort of call activism, which is, you know, not particularly starting a community of disciples. So some pioneers are, you know, they're doing social enterprise or things that are for good in the community that might be, you know, it might be a cafe or something or coffee roastery, things like that. But I mean, again, one of the stories I tell in the book, which I really love, is of a cleaning company in London called Clean for Good. So the pioneer there was, this was a church project actually in London noticed one of the things in their neighborhood was a lot of migrant workers who were being, you know, very poorly treated really in terms of cleaning contracts and hours. So they began to think that "good news" in their neighborhood might look like a community that paid the London wage and people had contracts rather than zero hours contracts, and that they set that company up. And that's been going several years now and is actually making a profit. But so yeah, so that range, that spectrum has really helped people feel well, actually all of this is good, you know, to it's not just one thing, it's it's a range of things and that that's helpful. And I think particularly in a post-Christian context, one of the ways I say it's a student sometimes is, you know, the the doing good in the community stuff. You've got to be good news if you want to talk about good news in that context. It's no good just saying right here's our good news but they can't see it. You really got to engage. I think. I mean the church at its best always has, of course. So it's it's nothing new in many ways. So yeah, I hope that's helpful. Sorry if that's a little bit long, but that's kind of what the spectrum is about and it helps people to feel there's a place for them. Yeah. And with students, sometimes what we find is when we use the word pioneer or entrepreneur, people think, "Oh no," you know, they tend to compare them. They tend to think of the most entrepreneurial person they've ever met, compare themselves to them and think, Well, I'm clearly not a pioneer or an entrepreneur because so-and-so is. I think the spectrum also gives a space to say, "Well, that's fine." You know, you can take someone else's idea and adapt it. You don't have to be out there, which I think is helpful.

Terri Elton: I really appreciated that because I think at least in our context, we get really stuck with "what's church?" and it has really kind of particular boundaries that don't that actually stifle creativity and, and mission and evangelism and witness and all those other pieces that go with it. We use around our place here at Luther Seminary "Faithful Innovation," you use "mission entrepreneurship," at least I've seen a bunch of that. And in your school that you're doing, you talked a little bit about that. Can you say more about what that means? And for me, that actually helps push the church definition. Kind of like don't get caught up in that. Right. This is a different thing than that. There's a different calling, maybe. Say something about what mission entrepreneurship is and how you see that fitting into this calling of the church.

Jonny Baker: Yeah, sure. I mean, I like the language of faithful innovation. I think putting the word faithful with new helps people feel that the new isn't going to rubbish the old, but it's going to be, it's imagination. At least it's going to be resourced by the tradition where there's a lot of treasure. Yeah. Mission entrepreneurship we've used as a term and we particularly, we run one module that gives, the people come with ideas. And in fact, the cleaning company idea, the woman who started that, Miriam, came on this week with that idea. And essentially through that week we get people to think about how do you come up with ideas? How do you develop them? How do you build team around them? How do you think about resourcing them? And by the end of the week they pitch their idea to the group and, you know, we try and get a couple of foundations there. Sometimes they'll get some money towards it or other people will pledge things. So it's really developing a set of skills around how you take something from idea to reality. Now the people running the course are mostly interested in social enterprise, but actually we don't. It's fine if people are bringing an idea that is starting something that's a nonprofit or anything else, because the same questions I think arise around how do you develop the idea? How do you build team? How are you going to do the maths to make this thing work and so on what whatever way you're going to do it. So we've kind of tried to make it as inclusive as possible, but it's, it's not really the space in which we're thinking about how do you start a church. It's more of the kind of doing good in the community and, and so on. And we I think, I mean, I don't know what it's like in in the US at the moment, but resourcing, I think pioneers are going to be better off if they've got a few avenues of income and resource. So having some enterprise within what you do, whether you're a church community or that's your main thing, I think can be very helpful rather than just a dependency on raising money from the people who are involved, particularly where, you know, someone starting a community small and they're living in that community for a while and growing disciples and it's a poorer community, you're just going to really struggle to resource that from the people in that space, which is, you know, one church model way of doing that. So to develop something that's a business for good that empowers people there. Yeah, I think can be can be helpful as part of what people do. Yeah. And actually the word entrepreneur I was just going to say I, I like the origins of that word because it comes from two French words meaning "entre", you know, between and from the verb "prendre," which is to take this, to take. So it's kind of you're seeing a gap and taking the space. So I think entrepreneur, a mission entrepreneurship is noticing the gaps of which in the UK in terms of what I've said earlier, being post-Christian, there's a lot of opportunity because there's a lot of gaps.

Dwight Zscheile: So you've shared the story of boxing church and Clean for Good. What share some other stories of some of these kinds of innovative, fresh expressions and ministries. I know the book is full of them, but what are some other of your favorites?

Jonny Baker: Well. I think one of the problems with the book is I've shared my favorites and they they tend to be some of the most exciting stories. But one of the problems with that is they they can feel a bit unattainable to people. So starting a cleaning company or a boxing club or, you know, there's another one in there, which is a coffee roastery with ex-offenders, one in there. That's somebody who I like who's ordained. So he's a reverend. And he started a community called Revs because he loves fast cars. So it's gathering around restoring engines. And there's several communities doing that now. But, you know, to somebody in the pew, in the church, this all feels a bit, can feel a bit scary. So I've started trying to tell more stories of, that feel a bit closer or a bit easier to begin with. So to give an example, the road I live in here, there's a guy who lives down my road called Wayne and he's he's retired. He's 70 something now and in Saint Mary's Church, which is the local church near here he has started three things. One was he noticed that there weren't many young people in church. So this is rewinding a few years now. He started a football club just to connect with younger people, passionate about getting them involved, and that was very effective at doing that. I mean, he didn't grow a church out of it. The second thing he started was that he heard a program on the radio about loneliness and he was so disturbed by it he went to the vicar and asked if he could start a lunch for people. And he started this thing called Polygonian Friends. And it's largely elderly people, quite a lot of disability, they're at home for multiple reasons on their own. But he's basically grown a really lovely community, got other people involved cooking lunch. I mean, this guy Wayne, has never heard of fresh expressions or pioneering, I don't think. So if I said to him, I think you've started a fresh expression, he might be a bit surprised, but he basically has, you know, with that. And then the latest thing he's done is he started South Ealing Food Cupboard, which is he's getting waste from supermarkets and stores that would be throwing waste away and they're collecting it up. And then on a monday afternoon people can come and collect food. And it's very much the way they pitch is it's not for people who are in dire straits or in poverty, it's for anyone. But I think that creates a way that people who are at the edge, you know, aren't made to feel patronised or whatever. So he's down my road. He's retired. He started three things in the last decade, and they're just he's heard something on loneliness. So I'll go talk to the vicar and do a lunch and let's get some people involved. And he's good at getting volunteers. So, so, so that's one of the stories I've told quite a bit lately because I think it's, I think I mean, this isn't meaning to be patronising about it. I think all those things are brilliant, but I've come to talk of it as low level innovation, you know, so we need it's great we get the boxing and in many ways those people are making natural connections with what they do. But, you know, it can look like it's full time. You need a salary, professional, whatever. But we just need lots of low level innovation that are people in our in our churches that have got a heart for people and a glimmer of an idea and give it a go see what happens. Yeah.

Terri Elton: So I'm going to turn just a little bit. Dwight and I got to come visit you at school, right? We were in the UK and Dwight and I get to think about theological education in its broadest sense, not just for people that are going into ordained ministry or whatever. Tell us, what are some of the lessons you've learned as you've done all your teaching and all of your educating and and you've are doing that not only with leaders in the UK but around the world, and especially aren't yo doing connecting with a lot of communities in Africa in particular, is what I was remembering? Tell us a little bit about what you've learned in your local context, but also globally.

Jonny Baker: iYeah, I mean, it's been a lot of fun, quite hard work as well. But yeah, for over a decade now, when when the church published this report and, you know, came up with this recommendation for a new designation of ministry for people starting new things, it then you know she she then said, you know who knows how to train these people and all the theological colleges said "we do" because you know students is the business isn't it? But actually, after a few years, the then director of ministry this is in the Church of England was pretty frustrated because and a lot of the pioneers were frustrated because what happened was that they didn't really change the training much at all. And the way it was talked about at the time was priest plus. So you get everything that everyone's always done in by way of, you know, theological, systematic theology and categories and placements and then on a Wednesday afternoon instead of playing football, you can talk about pioneering, you know, and maybe get a slightly different placement. So it felt like a bit of an add on rather than an imaginative rethink of the whole thing. So the Church of England asked CMS, the Church Mission Society, who I work for, whether, and the reason was, well, I suppose we were networking people in this space. But also I think they felt that what was needed was a lens of cross-cultural mission because so much of the questions and ministry were around, you know, imagination of ministry and relation to culture. They asked CMS if we would design a training pathway, and CMS asked me to do that, and I like an adventure. So I said yes. And I think, I mean, I sometimes think all we've all we've done, in some ways we use a lot of the same. You know, we teach people, look at the Bible. We look at church history, we do pastoral care, we do mission. Of course we do do the mission entrepreneurship stuff, ecclesiology. So a lot of the kind of subjects that you would think that people would be doing. But a couple of things I think we do that are different. One is that we've changed the air. So and to me, this is like the critical thing in any theological education or any education institute, what air are your students breathing and is it air that they're breathing that helps them, you know, celebrate the gift of who they are and what they bring and what they feel God has called them to do. And in our case, is it air of possibility and imagination? And then the other thing I think that we do that's related to that is that when people come along with their crazy ideas, we say, "love that, love what you're about," you know, whereas they're so used to hearing "I don't know that you can do that around here." I don't think our church does that or I'm not sure you need to go and do that somewhere else. You know, it's so used to sort of a defended posture, you might say, in the church. I mean, I sometimes feel like all we do is say "we like that" and then it's those people that create the community and so on. But I mean, you know, the quality of study and so on. Quite a lot of our students have published in books that we've done and so forth. So, you know, you really got to dig deeper, think into the tradition and the stories of mission to engage with the practice of pioneering. I mean, the task of, in mission jargon, what we call inculturation, which is how do you, you know, grow faith in a community of disciples on the inside of a culture rather than imposing it? That's not an easy skill. So there's a lot of learning to be done. But yeah, so, you know, that's some of the things that we've done. Most of our students are independent, so they're paying their own way, so they've got a certain degree of freedom about them, which is good. And then we do train some who are training for ordination in the Church of England, and we have a partnership with another college so that they they cover some more of the regular church things that you need with them. And I actually think it's good in terms of their formation that they're not just training with pioneers. They've got, because they got to navigate the space of the wider church, you know, in their ministry. So that feels important. There's that space as well.

Dwight Zscheile: So Jonny, what would be your advice to some two different kinds of people? One would be someone listening to this podcast who is a lay leader, who feels some interest in some call to start something new. And this is maybe not, you know, a normal part of that person's church and context. What would be your advice to that person? And on the other hand, what would be your advice to a leader in the inherited church, maybe a pastor of a regular established congregation who wants to help cultivate this kind of work in her context? Yeah, great question. I mean, I think for somebody who's got a sort of ease, I think sometimes it begins with a tug of the heartstrings. You know, for a people or a place or something. I think it's good to meet with some other people down the pub or a cafe, not not in a church space and have a conversation. I mean, in fact, in the book Pioneer Practice. There's a there's a. I mean, pioneer practice, as you know, it's a full color book and it's short pieces to look at. There's one double page called Getting Started. And I suggest three questions in there. And the first one is "what's bugging you?" I don't that's probably a very English thing. Is it? I don't know. Or is that American? Who knows, you know, which is "What are you frustrated about?" And that can be a great start point, I think, for exploring. And then "what are you longing for and what's possible?" I mean, I can't actually remember if those are the three questions, but those kinds of questions. So to get into a space where it's not restrictive in any way, but with some other people and talk about those ideas and dream a bit together I think is a great thing to do. And then I think to build on that, I mean, what you know, going back to Wayne, what Wayne did was go and talk to the vicar and talk to other people, find other people to join him, test out the idea, get permission. And build the trust for that very successfully. You know, and the vicar loves it. I mean, in that case, that may not always be the case. And then on the from the point of view of a church leader, I mean, I think it's a fantastic gift to have two things. One is to have people in your congregation that are looking beyond the walls of what you're doing at the moment and seeing possibility and, you know, say, it's great you're doing that. We absolutely need that. How can we support that? You know, tell us what you're up to and free them up a bit to do that. I mean, maybe offer to pray for them, ask if they need any resource. I mean, surprise them by your enthusiasm, I would say. And then secondly, I think, try and keep that relationship is is really helpful rather than seeing it as, okay, if this thing goes, we'll send it out. I think the research into the things that have started in in England show that they're not many that are just completely out, disconnected from a church. There's a relationship through either somebody who's sent or it's a door to church from a mother church. So don't think that the thing that starts will want to be disconnected and miles away from you. Do your best to to keep that relationship. But it might change, you know, like it does with our kids when they leave home. We have to relate to them differently. There're different phases of that. But I think try and build trust and understanding. And yeah, that, that that relationship is key. I think where where that's good often new things can begin and flourish and be understood, I think.

Terri Elton: As you talk about both Wayne and just even some of the approaches that you've learned, they are very simple practices. But my hunch is you've learned them from hitting some roadblocks and some challenges along the way. Are there any challenges if people are just getting into this work that might be things that they might expect to encounter or just themes of your challenges that you've had along the way?

Jonny Baker: Yeah, I mean, Week One with our students, I mean, I use a diagram to talk with them about the journey to the new and on that diagram. I don't think that's in Pioneer Practice this particular one on that diagram. You know, there's there's a sort of gap between what you want and where you are and where you want to be, and that creates energy for change. So you sort of look back at your tradition to journey towards the new. But on the bottom of this diagram in, there's a sort of scratchy area in the diagram that I drew that says Gethsemane and and what we say, what I say to students on the first week is that it's very, very, very rare indeed that the journey to the new avoids this place. It goes by many names the desert, liminality, chaos, darkness, Gethsemane , the wilderness, you name it, the dark forest. Yeah. So you're going to experience difficulty on the journey to the new that, and that is completely normal. I mean, we see that in the life of Christ. You see that in the journey of the Israelites to the Promised Land. So it's a very biblical idea and theme. Nobody wants to be in that space. But yeah, I mean, so there will be roadblocks. There will be challenges. You'll meet opposition, think I mean, sometimes you can do things to avoid things. So in Pioneer Practice, they're four sections. The last section is called Change, but quite a lot of that is about navigating change in a system like the church and some of the tactics around that. And you can really make life difficult for yourself if you're not careful. So, you know, there are things that you can do, but I think you will meet roadblocks. And that's why it's important in terms of, you know, for pioneers, I think, to have spiritual practices in place, you know, get a spiritual director, have friends around you, have somebody external to the environment you can talk with about things, you know, set those things in place that are when you're in a good space. So when you do hit difficult times, you've got some resilience and some stuff in place. But you know, there's a lot of fun on the adventure as well. But I mean, that that is part of it. You're right. I mean, I'm an optimist. So I'll talk about the good stuff. But yeah, day one, we do warn students.

Terri Elton: Yeah, I appreciate that. And in some ways, where where you just were was also where we started in the sense of this kind of grew out of a recognition that the church as it was, was not proclaiming the good news. To the people and, you know. And the Church of England wants, has the whole country as its vision. Right. That's their calling. And I and I think if the church way we're doing it isn't working. We got to let that go. We got to put it down. We got to die to find new life.

Jonny Baker: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's hard for people. I mean, the way that has been helpful for people, I think to navigate that a bit that was quite smart, I think in the Church of England is that Rowan Williams was the Archbishop when fresh expression started and he coined language at the time of a mixed economy of church, or now people talk about a mixed ecology. And what what he was kind of saying was that for people who like church and traditional ways, you know, albeit it might be dying in places, that's fine. You know, do that, do that well, but we need the new as well. So let's have a mixed economy, economy meaning household. And I think what's been helpful about that is it doesn't say that the old is rubbish or the old is no more. You know, there's great treasure and gift in that. But we need the new as well. So let's have both, you know, let's have a mix. And I think that's quite that's quite wise for denominations to think in that sort of a way, I think.

Terri Elton: Yeah, that's that's great. I appreciate this. And I could ask a lot more questions and hear a lot more stories. But I would like before we end today to know where to get your book, if people want to go deeper into this and to get some of those stories and to learn more about that, that pioneering spectrum that you talked about.

Jonny Baker: Yeah. So if you go to the website, get sidetracked, dot co, you'll be able to get it there either as a PDF download. I mean, it's a design book, so it doesn't really work as an e-book. So you're a PDF but look great on an iPad or something. Or you can order the the book which in dollars, I'm not quite sure what it is. Let's say it's $15 or something plus postage and we'll post that to you. It's not on Amazon.com, I'm afraid. The hassle of getting a book on there when you publish something yourself has been too much for me to work that out. But yeah, we will send it so yeah, get sidetracked dot co is the website.

Terri Elton: That's great. We'll put that in our show notes so people can just go to that link and they can go right there in case they can't write it down. Johnny, thanks for your time today. This has been great to kind of get your framework about learning about the mixed economy, mixed ecology as you're living it and continue to train in it. Next and our next episode, we're going to learn how the inherited church and fresh Expressions Church can work together. And we're going to talk about in the US context. So look forward to that. And Johnny, thanks for being with us. And that's all we got for today.

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