In this episode, Dear Listener, we dive into some of the most pressing questions about conflict in relationships: Why do we tend to avoid conflict? Why is it important to have conflict? And what is the best way to resolve a conflict?

Today's special guest is Julie Barr, LMFT, an expert couples therapist and beloved Relationship Center clinician. She returns to explore the nuances of conflict and its critical role in building stronger relationships. Julie Barr pulls from her 30+ years of experience supporting couples to share her expert insights on why we often shy away from conflict and the potential pitfalls of avoiding it.

We begin by unpacking the common reasons behind our instinct to steer clear of conflict, from childhood experiences to societal norms. Understanding these underlying factors sets the stage for appreciating the value of healthy conflict. Julie explains how conflict, when approached with the right mindset, can lead to deeper understanding and connection between partners.

The discussion then moves to practical strategies for resolving conflicts effectively. Julie outlines a step-by-step process for navigating disagreements, emphasizing the importance of self-awareness, preparation, and communication. Don’t miss Jessica and Julie’s role-play of an argument illustrating how couples can shift from adversaries to allies by adopting a collaborative approach to conflict.

By the end of this episode, you’ll have a clear roadmap for transforming conflicts into opportunities for growth and intimacy. Learn how to use conflict to strengthen your relationship, ensuring both partners feel heard, understood, and valued. Tune in now to discover the best practices for resolving conflicts and fostering a harmonious, loving partnership.

Key Takeaways

02:03 - Why do we tend to avoid conflict?

08:43 - Why is it important to have conflict?

16:27 - What is the best way to resolve a conflict?

Resources and links

For full show notes with links, visit relationshipcenter.com/podcast

Ep. 22 - How I-Statements can improve your relationship (examples for couples)

I-Statements: A Therapist's #1 Communication Skill for Couples Who Fight Too Much

Fair Fighting Rules for Couples: How to Resolve Conflict Effectively in Relationships

The Four Horsemen: The Antidotes, strategies for addressing negative communication patterns in relationships, from the Gottman Institute

Imago Dialogue: The Basic Steps

Have a question or comment? Email us at podcast@relationshipcenter.com. We love hearing from you!

If you’d like to work with one of the talented clinicians on our team (including Julie Barr), go to relationshipcenter.com/apply-now to apply for a free 30-minute consultation.

To get a monthly email with our best content, go to relationshipcenter.com/newsletter.

If something in this episode touched you, will you share it with a friend? That helps us reach more sweet humans like you.

Lastly, we’d love it if you would leave us a rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts. And be sure to hit subscribe while you’re there so you never miss an episode!

From the relationship center, I'm psychotherapist, couples counselor and

2

dating coach, Jessica Engle, and this is,

I Love You too, a show about how to create

3

and sustain meaningful relationships.

4

Josh: I'm dating and relationship

coach Josh Van Vliet.

5

On today's episode, we're going

to talk about how to use conflict

6

to make your relationship stronger

with special guest Julie Barr.

7

We're so happy you're here.

8

And please remember that this show is

not a substitute for a relationship with

9

a licensed mental health professional.

10

Welcome, welcome, dear listener.

11

We're thrilled to be joined today

by special guest Julie Barr.

12

You may have heard Julie on the podcast

before she joined us a few months ago for

13

an episode about jealousy and compersion.

14

And Julie, as you may remember,

is our clinical supervisor here

15

at the Relationship Center.

16

As well as a therapist, dating coach and

couples counselor with over 30 years of

17

experience in helping couples navigate

the complexities of relationships.

18

And she specializes in particular in

guiding queer, kinky and non monogamous

19

couples, triads and polycules to

understand one another better and

20

rebuild trust so they can feel like

they're on the same team again.

21

Hi, Julie.

22

Welcome.

23

Jessica: thing

24

Julie Barr: Hi, thanks.

25

It's wonderful to be back here again.

26

Josh: Wonderful.

27

And in this episode, as you heard from

our title, we're going to be talking

28

about conflict and we're going to dive

into why we tend to avoid conflict,

29

why is actually really important in

a healthy relationship, and some of

30

the best ways to resolve conflicts

to strengthen your relationship and

31

use it to be closer with your partner

instead of feeling more distant.

32

Jessica: Yes, such a great topic.

33

Before we get started, if you love our

show, dear listener, will you please leave

34

us a rating and review in Apple Podcasts.

35

While you're there, hit subscribe

so you never miss an episode.

36

Okay.

37

Let's dive into conflict.

38

Yeah, I

39

Josh: I know, right?

40

Jessica: just

41

Josh: conflict, isn't it?

42

Like, daunting, scary,

we tend to avoid it.

43

And, yeah, I'd love to

hear your thoughts, Julie.

44

Why do you think we

tend to avoid conflict?

45

Julie Barr: the, the biggest thought

that I have is that most people don't

46

have a good experience with conflict.

47

Either, you know, starting

as children in their family

48

systems and or school systems.

49

Friendships when you're a child.

50

Sometimes conflict meant

the end of friendships.

51

And, and so there is so much history

around conflict in our lives and

52

then we get into relationships

and it's a little bit scary.

53

Josh: yeah, for sure.

54

Yeah, it's, it's not hard to think of all

the reasons why it might be very healthy

55

response to avoid conflict in some ways

based on what we've experienced, right?

56

That conflict leads to end of

relationships, it leads to maybe not

57

getting what you need or want in a

relationship or leads to actual violence,

58

actual harm, you know, physical harm.

59

And and also at the same time, I

think we often don't have good models

60

of what healthy conflict looks like.

61

So in the absence of that, in the

presence of all the, what you're speaking

62

to Julie about all the ways we've seen

conflict not go well it's almost like

63

an adaptive response if like we don't

have any other way of approaching it.

64

Julie Barr: Absolutely.

65

think the other thing to note, though,

is that there are family systems

66

and you know, people who come away

from their experiences thinking that

67

diving into conflict and winning

and being the loudest and being the,

68

the strongest and most outspoken

is, is is the way to do conflict.

69

And that can be another way of

making it difficult because you have

70

to gear yourself up to, to go into

this big battle that you're about to

71

have and that takes energy, right?

72

Josh: absolutely.

73

Absolutely.

74

Yeah.

75

Either like, I mean, it comes,

I think comes back a little bit

76

to kind of that like flight,

fight, freeze response, right?

77

Either we're like avoiding it or we're

running from it or we're, when it comes

78

up, we're kind of like playing dead or

we're like, okay, we got to like fight.

79

We got to, in order to get

what I want, get my needs met

80

here, I'm going to have to win.

81

I'm going to have to like beat

the other person, basically.

82

Jessica: person,

83

Julie Barr: Yes.

84

Jessica: of

85

Josh: of which bring up this

kind of like, ah, you know, that

86

kind of very adrenaline, uh,

87

Julie Barr: Right.

88

And going back to something that

Jessica said about, or maybe you,

89

about not getting needs met, you

know, the other response is fawning.

90

And so, you know, if you have

someone who's conflict avoidant,

91

who is matched up with someone

who's very conflict enthusiastic

92

Josh: Mm

93

Julie Barr: and they come in loud

and, and they're going to win.

94

The other person is like,

you know, whatever you want.

95

And then their needs don't get met

because they don't have a voice, right?

96

Jessica: In your experience, Julie, with

all of the couples and triads, et cetera

97

that you've worked with, is there a more

common kind of pairing or set of styles?

98

Like is it common to see somebody

who fawns with somebody who's

99

very conflict enthusiastic

100

Julie Barr: Yes, I think

that is a common pairing.

101

I mean it's, I think it's

pretty equal across the board.

102

The, the two people that really like to

get into it and have a big old argument

103

and fight about it can be paired together.

104

Um, and it just makes for a household

that's very loud and, you know,

105

And kind of scary for other people

who might be in that household.

106

And then the other pairing I see are the

two people who are both conflict avoidant,

107

um, and so when issues come up, there's

not much discussion about it and it's just

108

sort of breezed over and again, in both

ways, people don't get their needs met.

109

And they lose what I consider

an opportunity to learn

110

about each other, right?

111

Josh: absolutely.

112

I was just thinking about how, how we

handle conflict is also something that

113

we see modeled in our family systems

and our family growing up at such an

114

early age that it is, you know, it's a

I think for a lot of us, it's just kind

115

of baked, it's like an assumption baked

in that we haven't examined, right?

116

That's just, oh, we don't talk

about those things, right?

117

It's kind of like the shared

assumption of our family system.

118

It's like, oh, we don't talk about that.

119

Or, or we do the other thing, right?

120

We kind of yell or we get really like

intense about it and we have to fight.

121

And that's like, that's conflict.

122

That's how conflict works.

123

Uh, And there's something about

that that I think because it, it

124

just like the water we swim in,

it's like, that's how conflict is in

125

relationships and close relationships.

126

It can make it hard sometimes to pop

out of it and be like, oh, this is not

127

maybe the best way to handle conflict

or not how I want to handle conflict at

128

least, uh, for my intimate relationships.

129

Jessica: can

130

Josh: about that, that it's

like, it can be hard to,

131

Jessica: to

132

Josh: what assumptions we have

about conflict because it gets

133

imprinted on us at such an early age.

134

Julie Barr: That's a great point.

135

The other thing is avoiding

conflict and avoiding conflict and

136

avoiding conflict until it blows up.

137

Right?

138

And so you know, it's not talked about.

139

Like you said, that whole

phrase, we don't talk about that.

140

But then suddenly someone in the system,

maybe because they've just lost all

141

patience, they've had a really bad day.

142

They came home from a hard day at work.

143

Maybe they've been ingesting a substance,

you know and their inhibitions are down

144

and they just blow up and it becomes

145

way bigger than it was

to start with, right?

146

And so I feel like that's kind of a fourth

style of, you know, holding it in until

147

it becomes a big blow up, which is I

think sometimes even scarier for people.

148

Josh: Also I think puts us on edge

kind of waiting for that blow up.

149

We kind of like know that it's maybe

gonna come but we're not quite sure

150

when and we're not quite sure what

will set it off because it's not,

151

you know, it's not a one to one.

152

It's not like, oh this thing happened,

you brought it up, we addressed it.

153

It's Things are happening.

154

I think you're upset, but I can't

quite tell you if you're upset.

155

I'm just kind of like trying

not to set you off, basically.

156

Uh, it's a very, very

difficult dynamic to live in.

157

Yeah.

158

mean, that's clearly the premise

of this episode, otherwise we

159

wouldn't be talking about this.

160

Yeah, why would you say Julie?

161

Julie Barr: Ultimately, I think

the goal of conflict is to

162

get to a better understanding.

163

Sometimes when we bring something up,

we're not exactly sure what we want.

164

We just know that something felt right.

165

or wrong or didn't feel good to us.

166

And we need to sort of

explore with the other person.

167

What just happened here?

168

Right?

169

And if we can come with that

curiosity of what just happened

170

here, often we will learn a lot

about ourselves and the other person.

171

And um, you know, the in my opinion, the

ultimate, the ultimate reason for conflict

172

is to get to some understanding about

can we do something different next time?

173

Josh: So you're saying it's not to win?

174

Julie Barr: I am, I am saying,

I think there's something

175

called debate club where you can

176

Jessica: Right.

177

Julie Barr: and you can try to win.

178

And I think that there are people who

love getting into debates and it's

179

a wonderful process for some people.

180

And there's a lot of humans

that don't care about winning.

181

Want to get their needs met, right?

182

Josh: Yeah, I love the way you

put that though, seriously.

183

It's like understanding is so like the

prize, the like, the delight that we get

184

out of conflict that we, we know each

other more deeply after a good conflict.

185

Uh, after we've handled conflict in

a, in a healthy way, I know something

186

about you that I didn't know before.

187

I know a way that I can care

for you or respect you or you

188

know, meet a need that you have.

189

And, and likely, you know,

the same thing about me.

190

If we've, if we've done conflict, well

191

Jessica: Right, I mean it sounds like,

as you're describing it, Julia, the

192

goal of conflict is understanding,

but that serves more in the future,

193

meaning it allows us to be more kind

to one another in the future, to take

194

care of each other more effectively.

195

Coming back to the debate club reminds

me of that uh, saying, do you wanna

196

be right or do you wanna be happy?

197

And so

198

Josh: In debate club, you want to be right

199

Jessica: yeah, exactly.

200

Josh: a relationship.

201

Jessica: ideally you wanna be happy

202

Julie Barr: right, right.

203

When you think about the way

some people approach conflict is

204

they're they're ticking off marks,

like almost like a debate club.

205

Oh, I won this point.

206

Oh, I won this point.

207

Um, and you know, they're thinking

that they want to convince the other

208

person to their way of thinking, right?

209

They want to change the other

person's mind or, or do something

210

that's not Or, you know, make

them believe what I believe.

211

And the beauty of human existence

is that we have different

212

values and beliefs, right?

213

And, and we get to share them with one

another and understand each other better.

214

Will we change people's minds?

215

I don't know.

216

Josh: Yeah, we don't need to change each

other's minds in order to find a win

217

win solution in a relationship, right?

218

It is often true that we

have two different experiences

219

of what has happened.

220

We could look at the same event and say,

well, I, it was this, and the other person

221

was like, well, no, and it was this.

222

And we don't even have to necessarily,

have the same, like, agreement

223

on what specifically happened.

224

Especially if we can hold,

multiple truths, right?

225

That, yes, for you, you felt like,

you know, I hurt you, and that's real.

226

And for me, I felt like I was trying

to do this, and that's also real.

227

And we can kind of hold both of those

things and still find a place where

228

we can connect and understand each

other and take good care of each other,

229

whether or not we have the same, exact

same experience of what happened.

230

Jessica: There's a really great book, I'll

have to find the name of it and we can

231

link to it, but it's about verbal abuse.

232

And one of the most useful concepts

I got from it was the concept of

233

reality one versus reality two.

234

Meaning that, uh, when it comes

to people who abuse and those

235

who are abused, typically they're

in two different realities.

236

Reality one being a zero sum game, I'm

gonna I'm gonna win, you're gonna lose.

237

That's the only way that reality works.

238

It's about power and control.

239

Versus reality two, where we're

working together to find the win

240

win, to get closer, to co create.

241

Julie Barr: Yeah.

242

right.

243

Josh: It just occurred to me.

244

I've loved this concept of reality

1 and reality 2 for a long time.

245

And I've always found it hard

to remember which is which.

246

It's like, it's just a number.

247

But it just occurred to me,

reality 1 is about one person.

248

Jessica: Yes.

249

And

250

Josh: reality 2 is about two people.

251

Both of us.

252

Julie Barr: Right.

253

Jessica: I love that.

254

Also, reality one is the winner.

255

Josh: Right.

256

Right.

257

Julie Barr: Number one.

258

Number one.

259

Jessica: one.

260

Julie Barr: When you were starting to

talk about reality one and reality two.

261

I, I, had this idea in my head that

you were going to start talking

262

about, you know, the difference of

perception, like Josh mentioned, like two

263

Jessica: Yeah.

264

Julie Barr: you know, well, literally

five people could be in the same

265

situation and have completely

different perceptions of it.

266

That's something that's been documented

over and over, like in, you know,

267

witness statements of a crime, right?

268

Totally through everyone's filters is

how we see the world and whatever filters

269

we bring to that is how we're going to

see it and we could be totally different

270

than the person right next to us, right?

271

So, it's It's really important to

remain curious about what the other

272

person perceived happening so that

we can understand more about them.

273

And sometimes you can

get deeply into those.

274

Well, what are your filters?

275

What were you thinking in that situation?

276

What is your history around

this sort of circumstance?

277

And how has it happened

to you in the past?

278

Right?

279

Or you could argue all day

about, no, it was this.

280

I saw this.

281

Everybody saw this.

282

This is what

283

Josh: you did this.

284

You, you said that.

285

No, I didn't.

286

Yeah, that's, that's so foundational to

Approaching conflict in a healthy way

287

is understanding that we could literally

see two different things about the same

288

moment in time, and both of us are right.

289

You know, there's not like a, you know,

there's not a right or wrong, it's not.

290

When we have the space for those multiple

experiences of a single moment, then

291

there's like, oh, of course we're going to

be curious about what we both experienced.

292

If we, if we just think there's a one

objective truth and I have it, then

293

it's like, well, of course I'm right.

294

And you know, end of story.

295

So yeah, I love that you're

bringing that in, Julie.

296

Jessica: Yeah, and I'll just add, I,

I, I'm thinking of filters, right?

297

So kind of the worldview

we're coming in with.

298

And then there's also the like

fickle nature of memory, right?

299

And how much, when we're under stress,

we encode experiences differently.

300

So it's like, yeah, you, could have had

one experience even in the moment and

301

then remember it completely differently.

302

Josh: It's amazing that we

ever agree about anything about

303

Jessica: work.

304

Josh: given the ways our brains work.

305

Julie Barr: This is true.

306

This is true.

307

Josh: Why don't we get into then

how we approach resolving conflict?

308

Given that we have multiple experiences

of reality, our memories are fickle who

309

knows if we've even experienced or saw

the same thing or remember the same thing.

310

And we've got all the different

baggage of our, our past.

311

Lived experiences in childhood and

past relationships that might have

312

us address conflict poorly . Uh,

save us Julie, what do we do?

313

Julie Barr: Well, I, I, I tend

to think that there are a couple

314

of key ingredients to, to having

a conflict in a helpful way, in a

315

way that connects people together.

316

And You know, one of them

ultimately is you know, conflicts

317

happen organically, right?

318

They come up.

319

And so you might already be in a

conflict before you realize it.

320

So being able to have that awareness, that

self awareness of what is happening for me

321

right now, what, what is going on for me.

322

Is this really something that is, uh,

happening in this moment or am I reacting

323

to a lifetime of these type of situations?

324

I think if we have the opportunity to

notice something going on and we want

325

to have a conversation about it later,

and it's not something that came up

326

organically, I think a pre conversation

step and what I would call preparation for

327

that conversation could be taking the time

to make sure that you both are resourced,

328

you've eaten, you've gotten enough sleep,

you've, you're not stressed out about

329

anything else in the moment, and you're

both willing to have that conversation

330

and, and checking in with one another.

331

Are, do you have capacity to have a

somewhat difficult conversation right now?

332

And allowing each person to be like, yes.

333

I can do this right now

or no, I'm not resourced.

334

I need to go do this.

335

And, and then I can come

back in X amount of time.

336

Right.

337

So that would be beautiful if we all

had that opportunity to be able to prep

338

ourselves for a hard conversation, right.

339

By making sure we're resourced.

340

And then I think, you

know, some of the other.

341

key agreements are ingredients that I

think of are, um, like I said, having that

342

self awareness of, of clear understanding

what happened for you in the situation.

343

And then as we've kind of talked over

already, coming to the discussion

344

with curiosity and not coming to it to

smash the other person's story, right?

345

Where, where we want to hear

what's going on for them.

346

We don't want to tell them

that they are wrong, right?

347

And then ultimately I think, you know,

the conversation flows best if you're

348

taking turns speaking and listening.

349

So each person having an opportunity to

say what happened for them and the other

350

person just listening and not responding.

351

There's lots of feelings that can come

up in this, part of the process and

352

lots of you know, all the things that

we do to, uh, to avoid actually taking

353

in what the other person is saying.

354

And so this part of the conversation

needs to go pretty slowly and we can

355

break that down a little bit in a minute.

356

And then deciding Finally, if you're

done with the conversation and what

357

have you learned about each other,

maybe reflecting that back and forth

358

to each other and deciding if there's

any action that needs to happen.

359

So.

360

I think those are the key

ingredients, but there's, there's

361

lots to think about in that process.

362

Josh: Yeah, so just to reflect back what

I've heard, starting with what's happening

363

for me right now in the moment, especially

if it's a conflict that is emerging right

364

now, which is so often the case, uh,

where in the middle of something and it's

365

like we're getting, we notice ourselves

getting like, oh, we're getting kind

366

of, you know, arguing with each other.

367

We do that sometimes where we're

like kind of discovering the moment.

368

Why are we arguing with each other?

369

We don't even know how we got here.

370

Jessica: even know how we got here.

371

Because I'm right.

372

That's why we're arguing.

373

In

374

Julie Barr: Exactly.

375

Josh: so in that moment, like,

it's helpful, it's helpful for us.

376

We do this, like, what's

happening for me in this moment?

377

And it's not always easy to tell that.

378

Sometimes, sometimes it's obvious,

sometimes it's like, I don't

379

know, I'm just kind of agitated.

380

And, you know, sometimes I need a little

more space to figure out why I'm agitated.

381

But that's, that's kind of where we start.

382

It's like, what's

happening for me right now?

383

And then if we, if we have time to

go into a conflict, if it's like,

384

oh, there's this thing that I need to

bring up with my partner or with my

385

friend or with my brother or whatever.

386

Can I come into that resource and

invite them to see, like, are you

387

up for this conversation right now?

388

Jessica: huh.

389

Uh huh.

390

Josh: Just

391

Julie Barr: Yeah.

392

I mean, I think even if it comes

up organically, you can be like,

393

Jessica: kind of having both

394

Julie Barr: I'm noticing

we're starting to argue.

395

Are we capable of doing this right now?

396

Josh: Mm.

397

Julie Barr: Just a really simple question.

398

Like, Is this a good time

399

Josh: Mm

400

Julie Barr: for us to do this?

401

Because if it's not, maybe we should

put this off a little while and go,

402

go sit in our corners and refresh.

403

Josh: Yeah.

404

And then once we get into it, having both

people have space to share and listen.

405

And I know there are a lot of good tools

for that out there and maybe you have

406

some you'll suggest in a little bit for

how to Cause I know some people hear

407

that and like, oh yeah, okay, great.

408

And some people are like, I'm in

it, I don't know how to do that.

409

Like, nor outside of that,

I'm good at listening.

410

When I'm in a conflict, how do we do that?

411

Uh, cause And then having some way to

close the conversation that's like, is

412

there some next steps we need to take?

413

Is there some maybe agreement we

need to add to how we are together?

414

Something that kind of has us know

we're complete with this conversation.

415

Julie Barr: Yes.

416

Yes.

417

Josh: Beautiful.

418

Julie Barr: And if we're not

complete, but we can't move forward,

419

what are we going to do about that?

420

Are we going to set a time to talk again?

421

Jessica: Yeah, that's one thing that

you and I do, Josh, a fair amount.

422

Like, we will get so far into a conflict

and then something will come up.

423

We'll need to deal with something

at work or in our lives.

424

Or we just won't know what to do.

425

yet what is at the heart of the conflict

and we have to take a break and we've

426

found it really important to like

schedule a time to come back to it

427

otherwise it just feels like this kind

of looming unclosed loop in our space.

428

Julie Barr: and I know oftentimes if

there is something bubbling, there's

429

some people feel some anxiety about

that not being finished, right?

430

And

431

Jessica: don't know what

you're talking about.

432

Josh: I'll speak for myself, but yes,

433

Julie Barr: just saying, some

people, um, and, and so knowing a

434

scheduled time when it's gonna happen

can give you the space to breathe.

435

Okay, I just need to make it till 7 p.

436

m.

437

tonight, and I'm gonna breathe right

now, and I'm gonna think about myself,

438

and then I can get to that, right?

439

Josh: Yeah.

440

Yeah.

441

It's, it's so incredibly uncomfortable

for me to have something unresolved

442

between us that, yeah, it's so, it's so

helpful to have that, that containment

443

like, okay, we're gonna clear it up here.

444

And it, it makes me think about previous

relationships where I, I didn't have

445

a partner that I necessarily could

resolve things with completely and that

446

we didn't keep our, kind of, Shared

relational space as clean as, as we do.

447

And how did I live with, like,

448

that was so, it's so uncomfortable

to be in a state of unresolved

449

conflict in our relationships.

450

And I think some of us get used to

that, like, I know I did, got used

451

to that in previous relationships.

452

It's just like, that's, that's What's

happening, we don't have a better way

453

of dealing with it, but I'm just so

present to what an impact that has

454

on my nervous system, and I think

for a lot of people on your nervous

455

system and like, your stress state,

456

Julie Barr: I think the other thing

it can bring up is resentment, right?

457

So if you don't resolve something,

you know, you're holding on to it,

458

and you're like, oh that's that thing

that we were talking about, and it's

459

coming up again, and, and That's

how blow ups can definitely happen,

460

where, you know, it's just tagged

on, added on, added on, added on.

461

Another thing happens and you

haven't resolved it, so for sure.

462

And it is, it is really uncomfortable

to have a conflict unresolved, whether

463

it's with your partner or a co worker

or your best friend, your parent.

464

It's, it's highly uncomfortable

and it nags at you.

465

It's always in the back of your head, so.

466

Just want to, validate that feeling.

467

Jessica: we're designed to be close

to other human beings, to feel,

468

you know, clean and clear with our

primary attachment figures, so I

469

think it is biological imperative

to really feel more, uh, restore a

470

sense of safety after a conflict.

471

Julie Barr: Absolutely.

472

Josh: Can we dive into these steps a

little bit more deeply through an example.

473

Julie Barr: Yes.

474

Jessica: And when you say an example,

my mind goes to role play, because

475

I know Julie and I make an amazing

476

Josh: I mean, you do, you really do.

477

Julie Barr: Yes.

478

Yes.

479

Let's, let's take an

480

Josh: the popcorn for that.

481

Jessica: There's so much skill,

uh, just, it's like we could

482

Julie Barr: yeah, before we go into

an example, I, I did want to say a

483

couple more things about listening and

speaking, if you don't mind, which I

484

think might help inform our role play.

485

Josh: I'd love to listen.

486

Julie Barr: Good.

487

Um, so I just want to acknowledge

that both listening and speaking

488

particularly about hard conversations

take a good amount of skill.

489

And just starting with speaking, you

know, being able to say something to your

490

partner about having been hurt or, you

know, if the other person was hurt being

491

able to acknowledge that that happened.

492

And talk about what was going on for you

in the moment is really difficult, right?

493

And so we, we want to be able to

speak our experience hopefully in

494

a way that doesn't just poke at the

other person and inflame their own

495

feelings in the moment and trigger

them to get more and more upset, right?

496

So You know, I know we, we teach a lot

of this at the Relationship Center,

497

but speaking from your own experience,

some people call them I messages, some

498

people don't like that term anymore

but really being able to talk about

499

only what went on with you in that

situation, so you can reference you

500

know, what the other person did, but then

mostly say what the impact to you was.

501

And I love to teach couples

and individuals the concept

502

of intent versus impact.

503

So when you, when you speak it, you

can say, I know that you thought you

504

were helping me, But the impact on

me was I felt talked down to, right?

505

You know, something to that effect.

506

Like, I think I understand what your

goal was and that it was, it was not

507

to be mean or cruel to me, but that

is how the impact came across to me.

508

And I, you know, Again, having

done whatever we can do to figure

509

out our own self awareness, you

know, is that, is that because I

510

was talked to like that as a child?

511

Is that because I had six

boyfriends before now who

512

spoke to me in a demeaning way?

513

Like, you know, whatever I can figure

out about myself, being able to

514

share that with my partner as, as

it,, so that's the speaking piece.

515

And, and I think that's very hard.

516

It's not easy to just talk about

yourself because you're talking about

517

an interaction with the other person.

518

Josh: Absolutely.

519

There's, there's so much skill, uh,

just like we could spend multiple

520

episodes just on that part of resolving

conflict and how to identify what's

521

happening for you internally, what's

getting triggered, what's coming up,

522

what, you know, thoughts, feelings, et

cetera, and how to communicate that in

523

the most clear and loving way possible.

524

So I'd love that you're naming

how much skill there is in that.

525

And we, we just did an episode about

I statements uh, recently as well.

526

We'll link to for folks who

want to dive more into that.

527

Jessica: Yes, and we have a, an

article on fair fighting rules

528

for couples which can help.

529

This is also, Julie, making me think

a lot about Gottman, the Gottman

530

approach, uh, and the Four Horsemen

of the Apocalypse and the antidotes.

531

We can also link to something there,

but what I'm hearing and what you're

532

saying is you know, how helpful it can

be to have a soft startup and to take

533

responsibility rather than defaulting

to coming in with criticism, contempt,

534

or just really a harsh startup.

535

Julie Barr: Yeah, yeah,

trying not to be attacking.

536

And if the speaker can do that,

it does make the listener's

537

job a little bit easier.

538

Because, you know, the listener then is

able to just hear what the other person

539

is saying, take note of what was going on

with the other person in that situation.

540

And, and hopefully be able

to reflect back, oh, what I

541

heard you say is this, right?

542

Their own interpretation

being brought into it.

543

And again, it's a pretty highly

skilled practice and, and I think

544

it takes a lot of work to get there.

545

I think a lot of people

are gonna mess it up.

546

When they start, right?

547

Several times.

548

So practicing doing it over

and over is really important.

549

Jessica: Yeah, and I think this

is where we plug couple therapy,

550

if it's available to you.

551

And Possibly couples therapy

with Julie, who is a whiz.

552

But yeah, I mean, we aren't

taught this in school, weirdly,

553

Julie Barr: Right.

554

Jessica: It takes so many repetitions to

really do this sort of thing masterfully.

555

My favorite tool for.

556

The talking, listening piece is called

A Couple's Dialogue, it's from Imago

557

Therapy, another thing we can link to.

558

And I love in The Couple's Dialogue how

it highlights when you are the listener,

559

you first reflect back what you're

hearing, make sure you've gotten it

560

correctly, then you validate, it makes

sense to me that you're experiencing

561

this because, and then you empathize.

562

It's, it seems to me like

you were really feeling hurt.

563

It seems to me like you

were really feeling angry.

564

And it's amazing to me, it's

like one of those tools that's

565

like simple yet profound.

566

When I have taught it to couples,

the things that open up for them

567

that they just couldn't get to

before because they were taking turns

568

defending themselves and attacking.

569

really, uh, pretty beautiful to see.

570

Julie Barr: Yes.

571

This might be a good time for the example.

572

Jessica: Oh.

573

Very good.

574

Okay.

575

Julie Barr: Did you have

something in mind, Josh?

576

Josh: No, I did not.

577

Thank you.

578

Julie Barr: Great.

579

Okay.

580

Jessica: Mm hmm.

581

Josh: Just excited for

whatever it is that emerges.

582

Well, maybe we can align on what the,

what the scenario is to start here.

583

Yeah,

584

Jessica: we trying to depict bad conflict?

585

Because Julie and I are very good at that.

586

Uh, dear listener, when we interview

new clinicians at the relationship

587

center, we do a bunch of role plays

and Julie and I, um, kind of delight in

588

being a really difficult couple to see.

589

Josh: difficult

590

Jessica: Our poor incoming

clinicians, they're so tested by us.

591

Um,

592

Josh: by

593

Julie Barr: well, I was thinking

of maybe a, a pretty simple , daily

594

occurrence sort of thing.

595

I, I, the thing that I immediately went to

was nesting partners, we shall call them.

596

They don't have to be married or, or

any, or gendered, but nesting partners

597

who coming home at the end of the day

and both of them have had hard day.

598

And uh, have to make hard decisions

about dinner and the rest of the

599

evening and especially if there are

kids involved, um, who's going to do

600

what and the, the, just the myriad of

conflicts that can come up with that.

601

And so I was thinking maybe we could

drop into a spontaneous conflict

602

over who's going to make dinner

tonight and whose turn it is because

603

everyone has a different perception

of who's done more work this week.

604

Jessica: Right.

605

Okay, beautiful.

606

And just to check, you would like me

to be a good partner in this scenario.

607

Is that right?

608

Good at conflict?

609

Fantastic.

610

Josh: what it might look like.

611

Some of the things that, that

Julie's been sharing about.

612

Julie Barr: Yeah.

613

Jessica: do it.

614

Julie Barr: And let's say Jess, you're

already home and you know, doing

615

whatever you might be doing when

you, maybe you worked from home or

616

whatever, and I'm coming in the door.

617

Jessica: great.

618

That's great.

619

Julie Barr: here we go.

620

Scene.

621

Jessica: Oh god, I'm so glad you're home.

622

Could you, could you grab Joey?

623

He's been driving me insane.

624

Julie Barr: Okay, I

just walked in the door.

625

Can I just pee?

626

And then I'll do what I can for Joey.

627

But I am exhausted right now.

628

So let me just drop my things.

629

Cause, you know, I've

been at work all day.

630

Jessica: I get that.

631

Take him, take a minute.

632

Julie Barr: Okay, thanks.

633

I'm gonna go put my stuff down and pee.

634

Alright, and then you want

me to do what with Joey?

635

I

636

Jessica: I, you know, anything?

637

Um, we also need to figure out dinner.

638

Um,

639

Julie Barr: yeah, I'm starving.

640

Jessica: Yeah, I, I, I've

just been, I mean, it's been

641

really a lot with Joey today.

642

He's been really fussing and, um,

I don't know what to do for dinner.

643

I'm feeling really overwhelmed.

644

Julie Barr: Yeah.

645

Okay.

646

Well, um, let's say I went and peed

and here I am coming back here.

647

Hand me Joey.

648

How about, um, you know, since we're

both tired, how about one of us takes

649

care of the kids for the next hour

or so and the other one makes dinner?

650

Would that, would that work for you?

651

Jessica: I don't know.

652

I mean, I, I feel like

I've been going since 7 a.

653

m.

654

I would really like a little

bit of a break and, um,

655

Are you, could you think we could put

Joey just like in the play pen and do you

656

think you could handle dinner tonight?

657

I'm just, I am,

658

Julie Barr: Well, I mean, that

feels a little bit difficult for me

659

because I've also had a long day.

660

I had to drive to Richmond

and then to Walnut Creek and

661

then back to Oakland again.

662

And, um, I had to have five

meetings with six different people.

663

And I'm, I'm pretty exhausted too.

664

Like my emotional capacity

is like, maybe 10 out of 100.

665

Um,

666

Jessica: Okay, um,

667

Julie Barr: because I feel

like we both need a break.

668

Jessica: yeah, yeah, that's hard.

669

Um,

670

yeah,

671

it feels like we're kind of getting into

this place we've gotten into before.

672

I just want to check, like, We obviously

need to figure out dinner, and I'm

673

feeling myself wanting to argue with

you a little bit, and yeah, just to

674

check, like, it seems like we're both

pretty under resourced right now.

675

Julie Barr: Yeah, I'm noticing that too,

and I noticed myself just feeling, um,

676

there's a little bit of frustration and

677

wanting to just kind of fly off the handle

and give up on this conversation because

678

it just feels like there's no resolution

that's going to feel good to us.

679

Either of us?

680

Yeah.

681

Jessica: Yeah.

682

Julie Barr: Hmm.

683

Jessica: Maybe,

684

Julie Barr: wonder,

685

Jessica: yeah.

686

Go ahead.

687

Mm.

688

Julie Barr: well I was just going to

say, I wonder if maybe we should just

689

put Joey in the stroller and go for

a long walk and maybe we'd just go

690

out to eat instead of fixing dinner.

691

Jessica: Yeah, yeah.

692

Seems like,

693

seems like

694

a good solution.

695

I was gonna say, like, we didn't even

really, like, hug when you came home.

696

Julie Barr: That's true.

697

We just kind of jumped right into it.

698

Jessica: yeah.

699

So, I'm definitely feeling,

like, disconnected, you know?

700

It makes it easier to

701

be kind of argue y.

702

Um, yeah, could we even just,

like, start with maybe a hug?

703

I could really use a hug.

704

Julie Barr: Yeah.

705

I could use a hug too.

706

Thanks.

707

Jessica: Yeah.

708

Julie Barr: And scene.

709

Josh: Oh, I love that.

710

I love that.

711

I love both the very realistic,

you're both fricking stressed.

712

Like so many people are trying to navigate

this transition point in the day and the

713

moment when you both Your characters both

714

were

715

like,

716

oh, we're doing it, we've been down

this road before, but you both did the

717

first thing that you're talking about,

Julia, which is like, let me check

718

in with myself, and even having that

moment of like pausing seemed like gave

719

both of your characters enough space

to, okay, we're at this place where

720

it feels like we're at an impasse.

721

We don't necessarily see what exactly

the solution is, but even that moment

722

of pause gave an opportunity for

a different way of moving forward

723

wouldn't have been there.

724

Julie Barr: And I didn't really say

it, but I think, you know, we, we could

725

have gone into this place, like I was

thinking about, you know, we could go

726

into our values about, Oh, I hate that.

727

We might go out and do takeout all

the time because we're always tired

728

and you know it's not saving money for

our family and like all these things

729

I could do to defend my idea about one

person takes the kid and one person

730

cooks but because it was You know, it

felt very clear that both of us were

731

having a really hard time and needed a

break that maybe that wasn't the best

732

way to handle the conversation, right?

733

And I could, I could feel in that

moment that it would take us to places

734

we didn't really need to go again.

735

Jessica: It was just gonna

activate both of us more.

736

Josh: Well, and I, and I want to validate

Julie that it's like, there could be

737

a real conversation to have in there

about, you know, how we're using our

738

resources, right, is, do we want to

be getting takeout five nights a week

739

because we're both get home exhausted?

740

Uh, that's not the moment to have that

741

Jessica: conversation when you're

742

Josh: exhausted in that spot.

743

It's like okay, I can recognize,

yeah, this isn't the moment to

744

go into that because that's not

going to get us anywhere good.

745

And maybe I bring this up at a

place where we're both exhausted.

746

Like you're saying, when we were both

resourced, like are you open to talking

747

about this right now so we can figure

out, you know, how are we doing dinner,

748

you know,

749

when we're both coming off of a hard

work day so that we, we do feel like

750

we have that moment, we can take

751

care of each other in

752

that moment.

753

Right,

754

Julie Barr: I can imagine the conversation

being about, hey, maybe we should do

755

more planning on the weekend and make

some frozen meals that we can just pull

756

out of the freezer, you know, to handle

those evenings that are so tough, right?

757

Like, because we, I assume we share the

value of not going out every night of

758

the week because we're tired, right?

759

Yeah.

760

Jessica: Yeah, I'm also imagining

this couple may have had like a

761

part two to this conflict, right?

762

Where they, maybe they go on their long

walk and they get their dinner and then

763

maybe another day they revisit it and

say like, I really want to share a little

764

bit more about what was happening for

me, and I want to hear more about what

765

was happening for you, and make sure

the different pieces are being repaired.

766

And I know for Josh and I, we've found

that the empathy piece needs to come

767

before the problem solving piece,

like we really need to make sure we're

768

feeling safe with each other again

before we move into, well, next time.

769

Let's you know, whatever it

is, do some freezer meals.

770

Josh: Yeah.

771

And, and I'd say feeling, feeling safe,

I think for us often means that whatever

772

part came up or whatever feelings came

up, we kind of know that the other

773

person recognizes and understands them.

774

Like, it's like that,

you know, that is valid.

775

Essentially that, that

part of the imago dialogue.

776

Helps whatever, sometimes like

a younger part that came up

777

know like, Oh, I'm, I am safe.

778

Like this isn't, you know,

whatever I was worried that it was.

779

My partner is this loving person that

I thought they were before my brain

780

went off in this other direction and

781

we can kind of relax with each other.

782

Julie Barr: And that, that small part

of you feels heard, which, you know,

783

again, going back to childhood and rules

and the way things are in our family,

784

you know, and you, we have experiences

of not having a voice in the matter.

785

And I think the other thing that can

be really helpful in, in these sorts

786

of conversations is if, you know, one

or the other of us in that example in

787

particular, you know, going back to the

values, if we highlight for each other.

788

I know we both really want to,

save money and not go out to eat.

789

And, and I also see that both of

us are feeling really exhausted.

790

Like, finding that peace

where we are really connected.

791

Like, those, those are the ways in

which we share our lives together.

792

it's Bringing you together with the

other person to notice that you're

793

having a similar experience, right?

794

Josh: That's a pro move

right there, Julie.

795

Jessica: Finding

796

Josh: the places where we are

aligned because it's so easy

797

when we're in a, uh, dysregulated

state to go into the oppositional.

798

It's just like, we just, we

go there automatically almost.

799

And so to be like, no, no, no, we

are, thank you brain for letting

800

me know that, but we are, we are

on the same page about these things

801

and we are looking for a solution

that's going to work for both of us.

802

Julie Barr: Yeah.

803

Something that I talk about with

couples all the time is, you're

804

having this conflict, but

ultimately you're on the same team.

805

You're on team togetherness, right?

806

And the, the conflict is actually

with the situation or, you know,

807

whatever is, is coming up between you.

808

You want to work together and collaborate

to work through this issue that you're

809

having, and the issue is the separate

thing, not you and your, your person.

810

Josh: Yeah.

811

And that means that you need

to find a, a solution that

812

really works for both of you.

813

That isn't like, uh, one person

works for one person and the

814

other person is like, fine.

815

Julie Barr: Right.

816

Josh: Uh, and in my experience, it's not

always obvious what that solution is.

817

And it can, I think it can

feel like at the beginning of

818

a conflict that doesn't exist.

819

Julie Barr: Right.

820

Josh: because we are a little

bit in that maybe oppositional

821

win lose dynamic mindset.

822

Not because we want to be, but

because that's where our brains go.

823

And there's almost a little bit of

824

like

825

faith or, or, or dedication needed.

826

Like, no, I don't see it yet, but I'm

dedicated to finding it and I think both

827

people holding that stance can really

help the other person feel safe and feel.

828

Like, they're not gonna be abandoned.

829

Because you're saying, like, yeah,

this solution works for me, but I

830

see it doesn't work for you yet.

831

So let's keep looking to find

how do we make this work for you.

832

Jessica: for you.

833

Even

834

Josh: Even if we don't

know what it is yet.

835

Like, staying in it long

enough that it emerges.

836

It always emerges in my experience.

837

There's always a path forward that

really works for both people if

838

we stay long, stay with it long

enough to discover what that is.

839

Julie Barr: right.

840

And I think that goes

back to the feeling safe.

841

If you, if you know the other person is

hearing you and understanding your point

842

of view, you're going to keep insisting

on, you know, no, that's not quite right.

843

Let's keep working to find another thing

because I'm not quite satisfied with that.

844

And, and there, there needs to be a

level of safety in the relationship

845

to be able to keep saying that, right?

846

Josh: absolutely.

847

Jessica: I think it also needs to just be

the understood frame of the relationship

848

or an agreement in the relationship.

849

That's what we do.

850

We negotiate until we find a win win.

851

Because I think, I think this is

something I've had to learn in my,

852

adult relationships is, oh, this is

a thing that like healthy adults do.

853

They go back and forth

until they find the win win.

854

It's not just one person unilaterally

deciding, and I think it's kind of a, I

855

don't know, revolutionary frame to hold

that to be in a really juicy partnership

856

or really healthy relationship.

857

We actually have to

learn how to negotiate.

858

Julie Barr: right.

859

A whole

860

Josh: Yeah, absolutely.

861

Julie Barr: nother set of skills.

862

Yeah.

863

Josh: So this is the first in our

17, 000 part series on conflict.

864

Julie Barr: Right.

865

Absolutely.

866

And then I think, you know, the, the

last piece finally in that in that

867

series of, uh, key ingredients to

conflict is really making sure people

868

are able to name what they're longing

for or what they need in this situation.

869

And, you know, is that

solution meeting that, right?

870

And is there changes that we need to

make in the way we interact or, uh,

871

share space together so that that need

and longing will be met in the future?

872

Right.

873

Josh: Yeah, it's so easy to get to the

end of a conflict and, you know, you've

874

maybe apologized, you've, maybe you've

listened and validated, but there's

875

nothing that addresses how are we going

to do this differently in the future.

876

And it feels unsatisfying.

877

It feels like there's something

missing, like I don't quite, can't

878

quite relax yet because I'm a little

worried that we're going to keep

879

doing this thing or that I'm going

to keep getting hurt in the same way.

880

And so it's so important what

you're saying about what needs

881

to be different going forward?

882

Or is there some need that

needs to be met differently?

883

Some agreement that we need

to create with each other?

884

Julie Barr: Yeah.

885

Because I feel like in

that situation, you know,

886

Jessica: hug to

887

Julie Barr: Jess and I came to an

okay agreement that we were, you

888

know, going to do this one thing.

889

But what I noticed that I ended up

longing for was when we come together

890

at the end of the day, I think Jess

named this really well, like let's,

891

let's hug first, let's connect, let's

say hello and greet each other and,

892

and just, you know, have a little

squishy love fest because that's, that's

893

really important in my relationships.

894

And then, the next piece for me would

be like, let's have a really brief

895

conversation about our capacity.

896

I teach this to couples all the time.

897

Like you know, no one's coming

in with a hundred percent

898

capacity at the end of the day.

899

It's just not a thing.

900

Right.

901

And so.

902

Let's, let's really name how much we have.

903

And if I only have 10 percent left at

the end of my day, but, and you only have

904

30, we're going to need to get support

because there's another 60 percent out

905

there of stuff that needs to be done

that we're not going to be able to do.

906

So, you know, do we call a friend?

907

Do we, you know, whatever, call a

maid service if the house isn't clean.

908

I don't know, but we're,

we're going to need support.

909

So whereas if someone else is at 80 and

I'm at 20, oh, Good, we're okay for this

910

evening because this person knows that

they're going to do a little more and I'm

911

going to do a little less and it's going

to feel okay because we talked about it,

912

that's I think sometimes something that

can prevent those conflicts that come up

913

spontaneously when we're both a mess, have

needs, and are not being open about it.

914

Josh: Yeah, you kind of head that off

at the pass before it even goes down

915

a road that you don't want to go down.

916

And I also hear , oh yeah, we're going

to add These two little rituals, right?

917

A hug to reconnect and kind of be

together relationally before we

918

try to do anything on top of that.

919

And also this check in about

920

Jessica: just checking about our capacity.

921

Josh: And it reminds me of one of

my favorite tools from Stan Patkin

922

around kind of repairing ruptures and

resolving conflicts like this, which

923

is giving your partner permission

to, uh, I forget how he puts it.

924

I kind of think it was

like coach you almost or

925

like

926

remind you in the moment, right?

927

So like, let's imagine that this,

this couple, you get to, you're

928

coming home again and you've made this

agreement about we're going to hug

929

when we walk in the door, first thing.

930

And the first thing that Jess

says when, when Julie walks in the

931

door is, Oh my God, I'm exhausted.

932

Can you take Joey again?

933

And if you've made this agreement,

you, you Julie might say, Oh,

934

you remember our agreement about

hugging before we do anything else.

935

Can we do that?

936

Yeah.

937

And Jess being the good partner that

she is, would be like, Oh yes, of

938

course, thanks for reminding me.

939

Let's hug.

940

And just like that simple permission

to remind each other of these

941

agreements that we've made with each

other, I find so transformative.

942

It helps me relax when I've made a promise

of some kind that is very important

943

to me, but I'm worried I'm not going

to remember that I know that Jessica

944

has permission to say, Hey, you know,

you said this thing, can we do that?

945

And I'm like, Oh yes, of course.

946

You know, my, my only response

in that moment because we've

947

made this agreement is.

948

Yes, of course.

949

Thanks.

950

Thanks for the reminder.

951

Jessica: so helpful.

952

Josh: Well, I, I think we could

probably spend the next 10 hours

953

talking further about conflict.

954

Is, is there more that you want

to share today though, Julie, that

955

you feel like is important in this

first, first dive into conflict?

956

Julie Barr: I think the other,

only other piece that I might add.

957

At the end of one of these conversations

that's, been successful, a really good

958

conflict is to, to think about what

did you learn about the other person.

959

Right?

960

What did, what did you learn about

their needs, their wants, the, the way

961

that they react to something you say?

962

You know, you, you might've learned

something about their history that

963

you didn't know before because

they, you know, they might've shared

964

something about their childhood, which

explains their reaction to a loud

965

voice or a particular word you used.

966

And so, you know, if, if you have the

capacity to to take a minute to be

967

like, Hey, what'd you learn about me?

968

Cause I learned a lot about you and

this is what I learned about you.

969

Right.

970

And also naming what you

learned about yourself.

971

Jessica: It's like next level conflict

skills, like integrating the conflict.

972

Josh: Yeah, we recently learned about

me that when I'm under stress, I tend

973

to respond to questions very literally.

974

I miss all of the, like, social,

emotional subtext to things when I'm

975

stressed, uh, which is so good to know.

976

It was like, it, it helped explain

some conflicts that we'd had.

977

It was like, oh, that was what

was happening in that moment.

978

Uh, now that we know, Jessica knows

how to interact with me better when I'm

979

stressed and I can start to counter

that a little bit or like notice,

980

Oh, I'm likely doing that thing that

I do when I'm under a lot of stress.

981

Uh, it's so, it's so good.

982

Jessica: It is.

983

We, we have a document where we

write down our takeaways from couple

984

therapy and we recently were talking

about, I think we need a document

985

for our takeaways from ruptures.

986

Julie Barr: idea.

987

A shared document and you can go

back and review it all the time.

988

Make sure that you're remembering

989

Josh: learned that thing last

990

Julie Barr: Memory is funny.

991

Josh: we need to relearn it.

992

Yeah.

993

Jessica: Well, you worked really hard.

994

I mean, conflicts are a lot of

work, so you might as well like

995

hold on to the jewels that you get

996

from that.

997

Julie Barr: Absolutely.

998

Well, and I love that you mentioned

coupled therapy because I think

999

it's a fabulous place if you're not

good at conflict to go and even if

00:54:14,722 --> 00:54:18,372

you're good at conflict to have a

third person to witness, because

00:54:18,382 --> 00:54:24,672

sometimes, you know, as you're trying

to negotiate your way back up to what

00:54:24,672 --> 00:54:27,582

is it, that we, we want to do here.

00:54:28,092 --> 00:54:31,452

If you're not finding your way

there, sometimes it's great to

00:54:31,452 --> 00:54:34,692

have a third brain in there to

go like, well, what about this?

00:54:34,772 --> 00:54:35,312

You know?

00:54:36,202 --> 00:54:40,312

Josh: Yeah, I think what you're saying,

even if you're great at conflict,

00:54:40,338 --> 00:54:41,280

Jessica: pretty good at conflict,

00:54:41,362 --> 00:54:43,102

Josh: I think we're

pretty good at conflict.

00:54:43,122 --> 00:54:46,532

And I find it so helpful, you know,

it's like having an adult in the

00:54:46,532 --> 00:54:50,382

room when both of our brains are

offline to help us like, you know,

00:54:50,382 --> 00:54:53,882

in those some of the sticky places

where the conflict is hardest, right?

00:54:53,882 --> 00:54:57,242

Where we're both, , stressed,

regressed, whatever it is,

00:54:57,352 --> 00:54:58,412

it's like, Oh, okay, great.

00:54:58,682 --> 00:55:01,406

You can help us find our

way back to each other.

00:55:02,442 --> 00:55:03,341

Uh, it's so good.

00:55:04,021 --> 00:55:04,361

Yeah.

00:55:05,631 --> 00:55:09,878

Well, I think that's a perfect moment

to end on and wrap up the conversation.

00:55:09,878 --> 00:55:11,928

Julie, thank you so much

for, for joining us.

00:55:11,978 --> 00:55:13,798

Again, this is such a lovely conversation.

00:55:13,798 --> 00:55:18,588

I really enjoy how you think

about relationships and conflict

00:55:18,588 --> 00:55:21,538

and how we come together better.

00:55:21,668 --> 00:55:24,458

You're so smart about it and

I always enjoy what you bring.

00:55:24,933 --> 00:55:30,723

Jessica: Yeah, same here, and you

have such a beautiful open heart

00:55:31,203 --> 00:55:37,623

and just such an orientation towards

inclusiveness and like everyone gets to

00:55:37,623 --> 00:55:42,513

be included and everyone gets to feel

loved and safe and it's just precious.

00:55:43,303 --> 00:55:44,081

You're

00:55:44,273 --> 00:55:45,393

Julie Barr: thank you both very much.

00:55:45,393 --> 00:55:49,533

It's such a pleasure to do these

podcast with you and, and really,

00:55:49,553 --> 00:55:53,423

I just love the fact that it's a

conversation and probably with the

00:55:53,423 --> 00:55:55,233

most loving couple I've ever known.

00:55:55,283 --> 00:55:56,753

So thank you.

00:56:01,903 --> 00:56:02,673

Josh: Oh, perfect.

00:56:03,323 --> 00:56:04,823

well that's all for today.

00:56:04,913 --> 00:56:07,753

You can find the show notes with links

to all the resources we mentioned in

00:56:07,753 --> 00:56:09,363

this episode at RelationshipCenter.

00:56:09,363 --> 00:56:10,813

com slash podcast.

00:56:11,048 --> 00:56:13,628

Jessica: And if you have a

question or comment, email us at

00:56:13,628 --> 00:56:15,298

podcast at relationshipcenter.

00:56:15,338 --> 00:56:15,798

com.

00:56:16,128 --> 00:56:17,528

We love hearing from you.

00:56:17,613 --> 00:56:20,443

Josh: If you'd like to work with one

of the talented clinicians on our team,

00:56:20,453 --> 00:56:22,923

including Julie, go to RelationshipCenter.

00:56:22,933 --> 00:56:25,863

com to apply for a free

30 minute consultation.

00:56:26,158 --> 00:56:28,998

Jessica: You can also sign up

for a monthly email of our best

00:56:28,998 --> 00:56:30,668

content at relationshipcenter.

00:56:30,668 --> 00:56:32,108

com slash newsletter.

00:56:32,323 --> 00:56:34,053

Josh: And if something in

this episode touched you, will

00:56:34,053 --> 00:56:34,993

you share it with a friend?

00:56:35,139 --> 00:56:37,119

That helps us reach more

sweet humans like you.

00:56:37,509 --> 00:56:40,526

Jessica: Lastly, we'd love it if you

would leave us a rating and review

00:56:40,536 --> 00:56:43,836

wherever you listen to podcasts,

and be sure to hit subscribe while

00:56:43,836 --> 00:56:45,346

you're there so you never miss an

00:56:45,916 --> 00:56:47,573

Josh: never miss

00:56:47,573 --> 00:56:49,231

an episode.

00:56:55,377 --> 00:56:55,587

Julie Barr: So cute.

00:56:55,587 --> 00:56:58,911

Bye.

00:57:02,972 --> 00:57:07,042

Jessica: Before we continue, I'm

experiencing Julie's video as very choppy.

00:57:07,532 --> 00:57:09,082

Are you, or is that just mine?

00:57:09,352 --> 00:57:09,692

Josh: interesting.

00:57:09,692 --> 00:57:10,812

I'm not seeing that.

00:57:11,212 --> 00:57:11,502

Jessica: Okay,

00:57:11,802 --> 00:57:12,312

Josh: That's weird.

00:57:12,732 --> 00:57:13,362

Jessica: that is weird.

00:57:14,112 --> 00:57:14,462

okay,

00:57:14,571 --> 00:57:15,063

Josh: good.

00:57:15,063 --> 00:57:15,554

Um,

00:57:15,962 --> 00:57:19,022

Jessica: if I don't make appropriate

micro expressions in response to you,

00:57:19,022 --> 00:57:20,412

that is, that is what is happening.

00:57:21,247 --> 00:57:24,287

Julie Barr: Okay, great.

00:57:24,287 --> 00:57:26,437

Josh: ha ha ha ha ha ha ha