In this episode of PSP, Nii Wallace-Bruce discusses the legacy of the Cincinnati Reds' Big Red Machine with acclaimed author, writer, and historian, Terence Moore. Moore shares his journey from being a passionate fan of the Reds to covering the team as a professional sports journalist (02:12). He reminisces about his interactions with legendary players like Pete Rose (09:20) and provides a deeper understanding of the socio-cultural impact of the team (31:21).

The conversation also touches on current Major League Baseball topics, including the Hall of Fame candidacy of steroid-era players (28:15) and Canadian baseball (22:23). Moore's new book, 'My Big Red Machine,' explores his personal experiences and insights into one of baseball's most iconic eras.

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Opening and closing music courtesy of Jeremiah Alves - "Evermore".

Welcome back to PSP.

2

My name is Ne Wallace

Spruce, and it is October.

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How good is October?

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Baseball is all around coast to coast.

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Here in Canada we have the A

LCS between the Toronto Blue

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Jays and the Seattle Mariners.

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Two teams that came into the Major League

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1977, we had a mini dynasty known as the

big red Machin of Cincinnati with names

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like Johnny Bench, Pete Rose among others.

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So take us through that and more.

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We've got a friend of the

show who grew up in Cincinnati

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during the heyday of the Reds.

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It is author, writer, and

historian, Terrence Moore.

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You've seen his work.

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ESPN.

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You've seen it.

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Forbes and now he's joining us to go

over his new book, my Big Red Machine.

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He joined us today, Terrence, it's

always a pleasure to have you on.

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How are you doing?

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Terence Moore: Well, I'm doing quite

well and you know, with the Toronto Blue

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Jays back in the playoffs, I always go

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Journal Constitution and I covered the

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and the Blue Jays, at the brand new

Skydome, and that was a great, great time.

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PSP: Absolutely.

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And the skydome has changed

a little bit since then.

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It's now baseball specific as

opposed to being a multi-sport

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venue as it was back then.

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If I'm not mistaken, that 92 series

between the Brass and the Blue Jays,

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that was when primetime, Dion Sanders

was playing two sports, right.

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Terence Moore: It it, it was

when he played for the Falcons

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and the Braves at the same time.

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And it, when you look back, I mean, that

was a very remarkable thing that he did.

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And, you know, there was a, a brilliant

ESPN, so-called 34 30 on that.

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Not just because I'm in that

that particular document or

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documentary I should say, but rather

extraordinary, particularly when

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you see what he's doing right now.

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As a coach for Colorado playing

basically, or coaching I should say,

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PSP: and wish him all the best

because the world is definitely a

39

better place with prime time in it.

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Now, Terrence, let's take it

back to, to where it started.

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You mentioned that you

were on the 30 for 30.

42

Interviewed for that documentary and

you were interviewed as a capacity,

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as a a journalist before being a

journalist, though you were a fan and

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you write in My Big Red Machine, your

transition from being a fan of the Reds

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to becoming someone who covered sports.

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Tell us a little bit about that.

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Terence Moore: Yeah.

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You know, I'll tell you this

book, I get chills every time I

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think about a writing this book.

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And I got chills while writing

this book it was almost an outer

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body experience, the whole deal.

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And I'm talking about not only

writing the book, but also the

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experience I went through, what

you're, what you're alluding to here.

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And that is that as a 12-year-old, my

family, my dad was an at t supervisor,

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transferred from South Bend, Indiana

to Cincinnati in, in the November 68.

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And I mentioned that because the

very next year was the first.

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Well, I should say unofficial year of

something called the Big Red Machine,

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and that was the Cincinnati Reds teams

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more game games than anybody in baseball.

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But but we just happened to move

to Cincinnati that first year in

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68 and it, it fall 68, but the

69 season was their first year.

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that time I became this diehard.

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Baseball fan, diehard Cincinnati Reds

fan, and Pete Rose in particular.

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Pete Rose, one of the stars of the team.

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And to make a long story

short, I went from being that.

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12-year-old fan eventually going to

college at Miami of Ohio, which is

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right off the road from Cincinnati.

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A week after graduating from

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Became a full-time sports writer for

the Cincinnati Enquirer back during

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that time, and got a chance to cover

and interact with my heroes on, on those

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Cincinnati reps teams You always hear

this saying never meet your heroes.

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Well, I got a chance to do it and more,

not only meet them, but cover them, write

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about them, and develop relationships

with several of them afterwards.

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PSP: Especially a sport like

baseball, . It's America's pastime,

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but it's, there's something about

it that's, you just have to be

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engrossed in the sport to understand.

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It's hard to describe, but going

from a fan to a journalist, was

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it hard to, become more objective

and impartial for, folks, who are

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your heroes that you looked up to?

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Terence Moore: And, and,

and that right there.

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I'm glad you asked that question.

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'cause that's the essence of the book.

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It talks about that journey.

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And this is something even though I'm

talking about baseball, even though

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I'm talking about the ridge even

though I'm talking about the bigger.

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A machine, anybody who buys this book.

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We'll see something

that they can relate to.

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'cause it, it's just a journey of

this young man just trying to develop

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the, to deal with all these different

emotions that you just talked about,

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trying to realize that his heroes

are just human and at the same time.

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I have to be this professional.

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I have to be this professional journalist.

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And while I was always , a fan

of the Big Red machine throughout

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this entire journey from.

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My teenage years right through college.

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Always wanted to be a professional

sports journalist too.

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And so I was able to, as you'll find

in the book, to handle that balance

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pretty well of making that transition

from being a fan, which you can't

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be anymore as a journalist, to

being this professional journalist.

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One of the things I point out in the

book, there's a saying that the old

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times saying back in the old days,

and maybe not so much anymore because

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journalism has changed so much, that

you are told no cheering in the press

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box, which means that once you become

a journalist, you're no longer a fan.

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And must say I made that transition.

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As well as anybody could have made that

transition, given the circumstances

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of my feelings for that team, for all

those years and, and even a decade or so

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PSP: And it is interesting that you

say that because we are in a race now.

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The postseason, MLB is now at

the league championship stage.

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Canada's team, if you will, is there.

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Seattle, which has a strong

fan base, is also there.

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And then you have the

Dodgers and the brewers.

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The brewer's one of the smallest

markets in America for baseball.

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Also, one of the most passionate.

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You only need to go on to social media

to see how fanatical some folks can be.

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Yet some of those folks also have access

to, to clubhouses and locker rooms.

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How, how would they find the balance in

today's world of being passionate for

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their team, but also so trying to still

maintain some neutrality when it comes

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to interviewing players and the like.

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Terence Moore: I love that question,

and, and, and I'll, I'll answer it

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it this way, among other things.

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I am a journalism

professor at Georgia State.

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I live here in Atlanta, Georgia.

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PSP: 70 years

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Terence Moore: Prior

to Georgia State, I was

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PSP: in Ohio,

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Terence Moore: professor

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PSP: modern

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Terence Moore: years at

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Miami,

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PSP: love

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Terence Moore: Ohio, my alma mater.

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PSP: so much

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Terence Moore: the reason I love

that question is because one of

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PSP: truth

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Terence Moore: things I tell my students,

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PSP: the book.

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Terence Moore: Is the truth.

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and that is I discovered

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PSP: being

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Terence Moore: you

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PSP: objective as a journalist.

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Terence Moore: supposed to

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PSP: This is sports or otherwise

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Terence Moore: as a

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PSP: journalism.

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Terence Moore: and this is sports

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PSP: That's the mindset.

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Terence Moore: objective journalism.

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PSP: the truth of the matter is

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Terence Moore: mindset.

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PSP: there's no such thing as objective

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Terence Moore: of the

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PSP: because we're all subject.

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Terence Moore: as objective

journalism we're all subjective.

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You know, me growing up in South

Bend, Indiana, that's the home

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of the University of Notre Dame.

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Notre Dame, the most famous

college football team of all time.

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And when you're born in South Bend.

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Notre Dame football is

in your blood, okay?

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And so whenever I cover a Notre

Dame game, I've gotta always

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have in the back of my head.

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I've got this in me and the objective

then becomes to be to, is to become

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the least subjective as possible.

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that's what it comes down to.

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You have to realize your, about

your biases as a journalist.

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So getting back to the Big Red machine,

when I was covering that team a week

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outta college they ended up meeting my

heroes and seeing what they were like.

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My objective was to be the

least subjective as possible.

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There was no way I was gonna be able to

get those emotions outta my mind, body and

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soul from growing up as this diehard fan.

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So the objective at that point is like,

okay, I realize I've got these feelings.

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I realized I got this background.

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I've gotta push that

aside the best as possible

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PSP: It's a bit of a tight rope.

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It's a fine balance.

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You have to navigate there,

but , you've done it for so long,

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so have to give you kudos there.

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And it's, it's a beautiful thing

when you're able to, to teach

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some, to teach these things to.

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future journalists.

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So kudos for that.

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Now dig, digging a bit deeper

into the big red machine.

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You are in a unique position in that

you moved to Cincinnati just as a

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machine is getting started, if you will.

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So players like Rose Johnny Bench

Perez, Dave Koon, Ken Griffey, Sr.

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Seeing these players come up, did you

feel like this is gonna be the dynasty

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or mini dynasty that it ended up being.

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Terence Moore: It really did.

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And, and, and again, this is where

it becomes surrealistic because,

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I'm a spiritual person and I believe

there's no such thing as coincidence.

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I look back all my life on a lot of things

and, and I just start connecting the dots.

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And it was, it just tells you

that it was just all meant to be.

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And one of the things that people

will find in this book, book very much

194

shows that because there's just so many

things that happened that that could

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not have happened if there, if it wasn't

for some sort of a spiritual force

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that would make the this take place.

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Now I'm gonna give you

a class example of this.

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Pete Rose, who I'm sure a lot

of readers are familiar with.

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Listeners, I should say, Pete Rose and,

you know, the, the bad part of it at the

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end involved with a gambling situation

where he was banned from baseball and

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was not allowed to be in Baseball's

Hall of Fame while, while he was alive.

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And now that he's dead, he

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Major League Baseball says that

he now could be eligible to be

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in the baseball Hall of Fame.

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That Pete Rose is not the

Pete Rose that I idolized.

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He was my multi favorite player.

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He's my multi favorite athlete to deal

with from a professional standpoint.

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And certainly as a fan, he was my

favorite player as a, as a fan.

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Pete Rose was great with me through

the decades, but I wanna get tell you

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a couple things in particular that kind

of tie into your original question here.

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Pete Rose, first time I I ever

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I was 20 years old.

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It was my first time ever

in a professional clubhouse.

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And I got there kind of by happenstance.

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I was a, a sophomore at Miami University

working for the, for the student newspaper

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and just happened to be able to get

in the clubhouse and I was mesmerized.

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'cause I mean, these guys are my heroes.

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I'm looking around, it's like, oh

my goodness, there's Johnny Bench,

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there's 20, there's Joe Morgan.

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And I'm getting ready to leave and the one

guy I had not seen was my guy, Pete Rose.

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And I thought, well, okay, well there

goes that opportunity and I look

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around and he is walking toward me.

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And you gotta realize at this point,

Pete Rose does not know me from Adam.

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I had never talked to Pete Rose before.

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I just watched him from

afar as a fan in the stance.

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He comes up to me with

a smell on his face.

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years old, sophomore from

Ville, Ohio shakes my hand and

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he says, hi, I'm Pete Rose.

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What's your name?

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I'm like to, to to to

to to to Terry Moore.

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And he, he looks at me and he says, so

do you work for the Cincinnati Enquirer?

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I said no.

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I, I'm just a, a student up

at road Up at Ville Ohio.

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And Pete Rose, May 14th, 1976

says, well, you'll be working for

235

the Enquirer someday year later.

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an intern at the Cincinnati Enquirer.

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I'm in the Cincinnati Reds

clubhouse, approximately the same

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spot I was the year before that.

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same Pete Rose comes up to

me, hadn't seen me in a year,

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comes up and says, hi, Terry.

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You work for the Cincinnati Enquirer yet?

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I, I thought I was gonna faint, and

I told him, no, I'm just an intern.

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And then Pete Roll says.

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You'll be working there full time,

turns and leaves next year if people

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can follow what I'm telling you.

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This is exactly two years just about

after I first met Pete Rose, the first

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time, May 14th, 1976, years after that, a

week after I graduated from Miami, Ohio.

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I'm working for the Cincinnati

Enquirer for real as a, as

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a professional journalist.

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My first story ever as a

professional sports journalist.

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I suggested to the sports editor,

said that I wanted to do a

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story on Pete Rose had this new

soft drink that just came out.

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It was awful, by the way, but

it's a whole nother story.

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the the editor said, yeah, go ahead

and you can, you can do the story.

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So I go to the Riverfront Stadium.

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Okay.

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First week out of college, work

for full-time for Cincinnati choir.

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through the clubhouse since

everybody's clubhouse.

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Walk up to Pete Rose.

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Rose looks at me and he says,

without me mi missing a beat.

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You work for the Cincinnati

choir now, right?

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And I was like, oh my gosh,

how does he know this?

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I said, yes.

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He says, so I guess you're here to talk

to me about my soft drink, which I was.

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And we grew up and talk about that.

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I to always tell that story, which

is in the book, that's just a

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classic example of the things that

have happened to me through my

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life, and certainly as a journalist

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PSP: Also reading your

book about Hank Karen.

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The real Hank Aaron and Yeah.

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, your written work doesn't

get enough credit.

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I don't think so.

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Yeah.

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That book really educated me on

the importance of Hank Aaron.

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Not just in terms of hitting home runs,

but also off the field of playing tennis.

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Connecting the dots between what

he did with Jackie Robinson and

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also the pathway that he left

for others that came after him.

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So I'm not surprised that you are

able to make that connection again

279

with Pete Rose here in Cincinnati.

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That's quite a story that you've told.

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Is there another encounter or story about

Pete Rose that our audience may not be

282

aware of that you can recount for us?

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Terence Moore: There, there's are so

many and, and, and one of the ones

284

that, that I will tell in the book

and, that mentioned in the book is that

285

how he and I just were connected at

the belt and at the waist and at the

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PSP: Just kept in my life.

287

Terence Moore: unbelievable how he

just kept popping up in my life.

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And I give you a couple quick things.

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One, so I'm working at the

Cincinnati Enquirer and Pete Rose

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PSP: What.

291

Terence Moore: born and

raised in Cincinnati.

292

He was the Cincinnati re born and

raised in Cincinnati, diehard Reds fan.

293

I'm talking about Pete Rose was a, a

star player there for 16 years then

294

we get to the, to the fall of 78.

295

And there's re these reports that Pete

Rose is going to file for free agency.

296

And we gotta remember, at the

time, free agency was very

297

new in Major League baseball.

298

So it was after the 78 season.

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Here's Pete Rose, the hometown hero

and it becomes out that he actually

300

is going to become a free agent.

301

After the season, which meant that was

a possibility of him leave leaving the

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team, which he eventually did by the way.

303

So in November of 1978, the first person

to write the, the story the, in the,

304

in the country about Pedro becoming

a free agent and officially filing

305

for free agency was Wait for it me.

306

The sister that Inquirer, I was

the one that wrote that story.

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you, he can't make this stuff up.

308

I, go from this 12-year-old fan of Pete

Rose to being the guy who wrote the

309

story that he's gonna leave the sister

well, well following for free agency.

310

that's one example.

311

Another example, let's fast forward.

312

He goes to the Philadelphia,

Philadelphia Phillies as a free agent.

313

Two years after that, 1980,

Pete Rose is in the World Series

314

with the Philadelphia Phils.

315

At this time I'm working for

the San Francisco Examiner.

316

And you know, my first year as a

full-time baseball writer covering a

317

team for the, on a full-time basis,

I'm covering the San Francisco Giants.

318

20 do quick math here, 24 years old.

319

I'm like.

320

One of the youngest, if not the

youngest, beat writer, major

321

league, covering a major league

baseball team for a major newspaper.

322

And I'm also the only African

American covering a major League

323

baseball team at that time.

324

And so here, here I'm at the World

Series for the first time ever, 24

325

years old and just just mesmerized

and I walk into the Philadelphia.

326

Clubhouse and this is right before

the World Series and Pete Rose

327

has all these veteran writers

surrounding him at his, at his locker.

328

Pete Rose looks up and he sees

me and he stops the interview

329

and he says, there's Terry Moore.

330

He and I go back a long

way, how's it going, Terry?

331

And I was just like.

332

Mesmerized.

333

And, and just so the listeners understand

what's going on here, this is unheard of.

334

I mean, usually, folks of that nature,

you know, they might not acknowledge

335

you with a, with a head nod, if at all,

but for him to, to stop the, all the

336

interviews with all these veteran writers,

to, to acknowledge this young African

337

American kid like this, it just blew

me away, but, you can read all kind of

338

stories like this throughout this book

339

PSP: I read the book on Hank Garron,

so that's set the table for me.

340

I know that there's gonna be some

good stuff about the Cincinnati

341

Reds and the big red machine.

342

Now, when it comes to Pete Rose,

it's no longer a case of if, but

343

when he goes into the Hall of Fame,

as you said, he probably should have

344

been in there while he was alive.

345

Is there any doubt now that he goes

into Cooperstown in your opinion?

346

Terence Moore: He goes into Cooperstown,

and once again I'm getting chills with

347

what, what I'm gonna tell you here.

348

Here's yet another of the million

349

PSP: So,

350

Terence Moore: how Pete and

351

PSP: I have a baseball hall fame.

352

Terence Moore: I

353

PSP: I haven't.

354

Terence Moore: Hall of fame writer.

355

And so I had a chance if Peter Rose had

not gotten banned from baseball have

356

voted for Peter Rose for the Hall of

Fame, get him a all time favorite player.

357

I mean,

358

PSP: Never

359

Terence Moore: would that have been?

360

Okay.

361

And never got the chance because when he

362

PSP: back in

363

Terence Moore: Vanished from

364

PSP: ineligible

365

Terence Moore: on the sport.

366

PSP: of Fame

367

Terence Moore: That made him

ineligible for the Hall of Fame and

368

PSP: on the Hall of Fame

369

Terence Moore: to appear

370

PSP: Baseball.

371

Right.

372

Terence Moore: of Fame ballots.

373

And I'm a member of the

374

Writers of of America

Association and we're the

375

PSP: Debate

376

Terence Moore: some of

377

PSP: may

378

Terence Moore: who are,

379

PSP: for me to vote,

380

Terence Moore: Baseball Hall of Famers.

381

So that made it

382

PSP: but here

383

Terence Moore: for me to

vote for him as a baseball

384

PSP: of the book

385

Terence Moore: here's the thing,

which I also pointed out in the book.

386

Pete told

387

PSP: he,

388

Terence Moore: numerous

occasions, particularly

389

PSP: what was happen,

390

Terence Moore: he was convinced what

391

PSP: was convinced

392

Terence Moore: happen.

393

PSP: and as soon as he died,

394

Terence Moore: to happen.

395

He was

396

PSP: they were going to

397

Terence Moore: soon as he died

398

PSP: my Facebook.

399

Terence Moore: lift this,

400

PSP: Baseball

401

Terence Moore: of

402

PSP: and that's exactly what happened.

403

And I,

404

Terence Moore: And that's

exactly what happened.

405

And and I wrote a column for Forbes about

just how bitter I personally was by this,

406

because it was almost cruel that almost

you know, within weeks, certainly maybe

407

a month or so after his death, that's

408

PSP: baseball

409

Terence Moore: Rod

410

PSP: enough

411

Terence Moore: the, the.

412

PSP: that

413

Terence Moore: Baseball commissioner

414

PSP: that now that to.

415

Terence Moore: that that, you know,

now that Pete Rose is dead, they,

416

they've decided that it was it was

okay to lift this lifetime band

417

PSP: one thing that I've always

heard is you should always honor and

418

cherish people while they're alive.

419

It's almost like you should give someone.

420

, The good notes that you were

putting in an obituary to their

421

face while they're still living.

422

It's not really much

use when they're gone.

423

Right.

424

, There was an outpouring after

Pete Rose passed away about

425

Terence Moore: true.

426

PSP: his, his record on the field of

play, what he brought to the city of

427

Cincinnati, and then naturally the

talk of him going into Cooperstown.

428

But Unfortunately, it falls on dead

ears when he's no longer with us.

429

He doesn't get to enjoy that accolade.

430

Something that he, I'm sure he, he

was dreaming of while he was a player.

431

Now, this also happens, in the

432

major League Baseball has this.

433

Relationship with gambling companies.

434

There's baseball games being

televised on sports networks that

435

bear the name of betting companies.

436

you can't escape whether it's network,

which I love watching by the way, or

437

any station that is a broadcast partner.

438

You're being hit with odds for games.

439

So it is, perplexing.

440

It's a little bit ironic.

441

It's almost oxymoronic that.

442

The game which kept Pete rose out for

so long because of gambling is now

443

pushing gambling at every opportunity.

444

But these are the times

we're in, right, Terry?

445

Terence Moore: Well, I

mean, you're exactly right.

446

I mean, you know listeners can't

see the disgust on my face because

447

I mean, every time I hear this and

every time I, I've written this

448

many times before I, it's just.

449

But I mean, the, the

short answer is, and it

450

PSP: I just saw something

451

Terence Moore: or sports in general.

452

I mean, I just saw something the other

day that said, now the, the NCAA is gonna

453

PSP: sword

454

Terence Moore: athletes to bet on sports,

455

PSP: legally

456

Terence Moore: outside

of college athletics.

457

They can legally

458

PSP: a worm.

459

Terence Moore: on NFL

games and stuff like that.

460

Which, opening up a can of worms.

461

I mean, I mean, the hypocrisy is just, it.

462

I guess the word I think of is very, very

463

PSP: One thing I thought about the

464

Terence Moore: disgusting.

465

But you know, one thing I thought

about before I forget, I wanna

466

mention one Canadian tie I've got

in the book involving Pete Rose.

467

PSP: I,

468

Terence Moore: And it's

just, is actually it makes

469

PSP: one of things I, in the book.

470

Terence Moore: say one of the things

I write in the book, the one time.

471

That I had a problem with Pete

Rose, involved Canada, and

472

actually more specifically

the Montreal Expos, Pete Rose.

473

Spent

474

PSP: This was in 19

475

Terence Moore: with the Montreal

476

PSP: 83.

477

Terence Moore: was after he played

for the Philadelphia Phillies in 83,

478

and he wanted more playing time, so

479

PSP: Election

480

Terence Moore: he, he wanted to

481

PSP: didn't last very long.

482

Terence Moore: him to the

483

PSP: Thank

484

Terence Moore: Expos

485

PSP: it's problem.

486

Terence Moore: long, and thank God

it didn't, and here's the problem

487

I had with him, with the expos.

488

Those uniforms.

489

I, you know, first of all, I, those were

490

PSP: uniform.

491

Terence Moore: baseball traditionalist.

492

Those, those expos uniforms

493

PSP: Yeah.

494

I'm old fashioned.

495

I'm old.

496

Terence Moore: nuts.

497

PSP: The old track

498

Terence Moore: I'm old

fashioned, I'm old style.

499

Yeah, just gimme the old time religion.

500

PSP: of.

501

Terence Moore: the old time uniforms.

502

PSP: So that was part one, part two,

503

Terence Moore: and what

504

PSP: because

505

Terence Moore: so that

was part one, part two.

506

Pete Rose at that time in 84 was you

know, he was, he was not the, the slim

507

PSP: 19

508

Terence Moore: Pete Rose

509

PSP: have in that uniform.

510

Mitral,

511

Terence Moore: So to have him in that

512

PSP: like designed by maybe a third grader

513

Terence Moore: that looked

514

PSP: was almost cool, unusual,

515

Terence Moore: maybe a third

516

PSP: and

517

Terence Moore: was

518

PSP: and used to just

hurt my eyes and feel it.

519

Terence Moore: and

520

PSP: Well,

521

Terence Moore: to just hurt

522

PSP: the best thing that baseball

523

Terence Moore: every time I saw

524

PSP: did

525

Terence Moore: So I

526

PSP: later that fall wasn't

527

Terence Moore: guards did.

528

It was later that fall.

529

He wasn't a,

530

PSP: bridge, worked the deal,

bring back to the red and the

531

Terence Moore: the Reds

worked the deal to bring

532

PSP: player manager.

533

Terence Moore: at the end

of the 84 season to be

534

PSP: For everybody.

535

Terence Moore: and and it

worked out for everybody.

536

That's when he ended up hitting

breaking tight Cs all time Hits

537

record later that next year in 85

in a red uniform, and thank God

538

PSP: I understand where

you're coming from.,

539

It was a little bit different to what.

540

We're used to seeing on the field of play.

541

However, I do think we should

see more baseball in Canada.

542

It's, it's sad the way

that the x wass went out.

543

Although the nationals did win

544

way the X wass went out was sad.

545

I wanted to ask you a question about.

546

Canadian.

547

Baseball , it's not often.

548

a baseball rider who has a

vote for the Hall of fame.,

549

There is a narrative in Canada that some

players have played up in Toronto and

550

Montreal especially someone like Carlos

Delgado may not have been given as much

551

consideration because they didn't get

as many games televised in America.

552

What's your thoughts on that?

553

Terence Moore: Oh,

there's no doubt about it.

554

I mean there, there's all

kind of, examples of that even

555

in the United States here.

556

I mean, 'cause you know, one of the

things that, that has happened through

557

the years and one of my pet peeves

as a guy who grew up in the Midwest,

558

and like I said, I grew up in born

and raised in South Bend, Indiana.

559

My dad being at t Supervisor.

560

Moved from South Bend to Cincinnati

and then got transferred to

561

Chicago and then to Milwaukee.

562

So I know a lot about the brewers, so

we're Midwestern people, and it was very

563

apparent to me, certainly at an early

age when it came to all things in the,

564

in the United States that has all tilted.

565

Media wise toward the east,

coast media is just so powerful.

566

Boston, New York, Philadelphia, it,

it's almost like if it didn't, it

567

didn't happen anywhere near the the

Atlantic Ocean, then it, you know,

568

PSP: And I put my way to Canada.

569

Terence Moore: So, and I'm

570

PSP: Historically

571

Terence Moore: here in a minute.

572

So historically,

573

PSP: it was

574

Terence Moore: Certainly in

the Midwest and in the West.

575

It just, it's inferior from a

media standpoint to anything

576

that happens in the East.

577

And that's one of the things I write

about in this book, by the way.

578

The, and I, I'll get to the

579

PSP: 1970.

580

Terence Moore: as a

explain this part of it.

581

In 1975, that Big Red Machine

582

PSP: Over Boston Prince

583

Terence Moore: of Back to Back World

Series over the Boston Red Sox,

584

PSP: seven Game series.

585

Terence Moore: One game.

586

It was a seven game

587

PSP: Series.

588

Terence Moore: The Boston

589

PSP: This a dramatic home run,

590

Terence Moore: World Series on

this dramatic home run in the

591

PSP: run

592

Terence Moore: of the 12th

593

PSP: foul

594

Terence Moore: Fisca, a home run

595

PSP: game.

596

Terence Moore: the foul poll.

597

Okay?

598

Reds won.

599

Game seven the next day at Fenway

Park to win the World Series.

600

But even to this day, 50

years ago, 50 years later.

601

If you go by baseball historians and by

everything you see on television, they

602

keep showing that boss, that Carlton Fisk

home run over and over and over again.

603

So the majority of the people believe

that the Red Sox won the World Series,

604

and whenever the media talks about that

World Series, the 75 World Series, they

605

always begin and end with Carlton Fisk.

606

When in fact the Reds

won the World Series.

607

Why is

608

PSP: Had

609

Terence Moore: Well, east Coast

610

PSP: develop

611

Terence Moore: Boston,

612

PSP: What's happened,

613

Terence Moore: Cincinnati's irrelevant,

and that is what's happening with Canada.

614

If the rest of America outside of

the East is considered irrelevant by

615

East Coast media, we've got the bulk

of the baseball writers, by the way,

616

who vote for Baseball Hall of Famers.

617

Then you can, you know, just add to that.

618

What they think about

Canadian players and teams,

619

PSP: yeah, it was illuminating to

see that even in the recent A LDS

620

when the New York Yankees played

against the Toronto Blue Jays.

621

I saw a number of analysts and folks

watching the game, and they were

622

saying, oh, who, who's this player?

623

Who's this?

624

Addison Barger, who's this?

625

Ernie Clement guys who have

been in this lineup for the Blue

626

Jays throughout the season, but.

627

F because the blue days don't

get gains on Fox and TBS.

628

They're relatively new to the,

the American national audience.

629

So it, it's illuminating to see that.

630

Another thing that was illuminating

during your journalist career is the

631

steroid era, Terry as a baseball hall

of fame voter, do you see an instance

632

where players on the third era.

633

May get into one day.

634

Terence Moore: I certainly hope not.

635

And one of the things I write

about in the book, I, I deal with

636

this in, in addition to Pete Rose,

I was very close to Joe Morgan.

637

Greatest second baseman of all time.

638

And, and the, certainly the

one of the spark plugs of the

639

big red machine for years.

640

And Joe Morgan, if you wanted to see

him go into tirade, have him talk about

641

these steroid guys about what and what

642

PSP: Were to.

643

Terence Moore: an insult the steroid guys

work to him and to other great players.

644

And Joe Morgan even wrote

a letter to all of us.

645

Baseball Hall of Famers urging us to

never let us these ster guides in because

646

of what it, what effect it has on them.

647

You mentioned Hank Aaron.

648

I was very close to Hank Aaron, and

as you mentioned, I wrote the book on

649

Hank, and Hank is the first guy that

pointed this out to me about how people

650

get this all wrong, about steroids,

thinking that steroids is all about power.

651

And Hank asked me this

question, I'll never forget it.

652

He says what position do you think.

653

Test positive for steroids

more than any other position.

654

And like everybody else,

I said outfielders.

655

He said, Nope.

656

I said first base.

657

Yeah.

658

Third base.

659

Nope.

660

Pictures, pictures consistently,

661

PSP: Asking, what is that all about?

662

Terence Moore: positive for steroids.

663

And I asked him, I said,

what is that all about?

664

He said, this is Hank

Aaron telling me this.

665

PSP: More about

666

Terence Moore: don't understand that Hank,

that steroids is more about recovery.

667

PSP: to

668

Terence Moore: Durability,

669

PSP: games.

670

Terence Moore: able to,

671

PSP: Said many days,

672

Terence Moore: multiple games.

673

PSP: said it still works for, for around

674

Terence Moore: to get out there and

675

PSP: days.

676

He.

677

Terence Moore: if steel wars

were were around, there would be

678

days that he would play when he

didn't really feel like playing

679

PSP: He would've had like 900.

680

Terence Moore: 755 home runs,

681

PSP: That's a long

682

Terence Moore: had

683

PSP: way to say

684

Terence Moore: runs.

685

PSP: this is wagon should never

686

Terence Moore: way to say.

687

is

688

PSP: And I think of another Canadian,

689

Terence Moore: allowed.

690

And I

691

PSP: I was there,

692

Terence Moore: Canadian tie in here.

693

By the way, I was there

at the skydome, it was

694

PSP: can't remember exactly which,

695

Terence Moore: And the and I

can't remember exactly which a

696

PSP: but.

697

Terence Moore: this was, and you

probably remember off the side of your

698

head, it was when the Oakland a were

there playing Toronto and Jose Conseco

699

hit this shot into the upper deck.

700

PSP: At the time

701

Terence Moore: And I wanna

702

PSP: was

703

Terence Moore: or left center

704

PSP: blocker.

705

Terence Moore: And at the time they

706

PSP: Blocker.

707

Terence Moore: an auxiliary

708

PSP: home was coming.

709

Terence Moore: I was in the

710

PSP: That

711

Terence Moore: box and his home

run was coming straight toward me.

712

That ball was heading toward

Mars or maybe Jupiter.

713

Okay.

714

And this is before we realized

about the how prevalent the

715

PSP: Things

716

Terence Moore: thing was.

717

PSP: unfair.

718

Terence Moore: I think back about things

like that, it's totally unfair to have.

719

guy like that in the Hall of Fame

720

PSP: And that was actually

the first year of the skydome.

721

How about that?

722

So Canseco did kind of christen the

skydome with that deep shot to the, I

723

think it was the fifth deck of the dome.

724

Wow.

725

Have you ever spoken to the big

me red machine class about what

726

went on with the 2017 Astros?

727

What were some of the

players' thoughts on that,

728

Terence Moore: I never heard

anybody per, per se talk about

729

PSP: Hmm.

730

Terence Moore: honest with you, with the,

the cheating scandal you're referring to.

731

And that's on a whole different

level, obviously, but from a big red,

732

PSP: That was.

733

Terence Moore: standpoint I.

734

That was kind of like a, a non-factor

because, you know but I will tell

735

you this, the you know, the, the

big tion was the antithesis of that.

736

No one has ever said anything about

anybody with that team doing anything

737

that was that was cheating or anything.

738

They, that was a, you talking about

a team that did it the right way.

739

And, and besides everything else.

740

again, I, I my theme.

741

I, I just get goosebumps

talking about this team.

742

I mean, even here, all these years, I, I

still get emotional talking about them.

743

One of the reasons that was the greatest

team of all time, besides the fact they

744

did, did it clean as you're alluding

to, or like, as Al was alluding to

745

think about this in 1975 or 76, let's

stick team, they won 108 games and.

746

They led major league baseball in

virtually all hitting categories.

747

led major league baseball in speed

categories, stolen bases, and

748

they led major league baseball

in all fielding categories.

749

Was like four gold glovers up the middle.

750

I mean, they,

751

PSP: Baseball.

752

Terence Moore: they had the third

best ERA in major league baseball

753

with the best bullpen in baseball.

754

PSP: It's a beautiful thing

755

Terence Moore: get much

756

PSP: and we're, we're starting

to see some, some shoots, I guess

757

some green shoots in the, the

current iteration of the, the Reds.

758

When you see Ellie de La Cruz powering

around the base paths and what Terry Fran

759

Kona had with this season's Cincinnati

Reds, they, they s shuck the weld.

760

They, they pushed out the mets and

made it to the wild cod series.

761

Do you feel like we'll ever see

another version of the Big Red

762

Machine again in Cincinnati?

763

Terence Moore: No, no, no.

764

That, that, that one and done th

that there's n there will never

765

be anything close to that, and

they call it the Great eight.

766

And the great eight is

the starting lineup.

767

And as the goosebumps develop all.

768

I don't around me here.

769

I mean, let's look at,

let's do it this way.

770

Okay.

771

The grade A, let's go

around the horn Catcher,

772

PSP: 22nd

773

Terence Moore: Tony Perez, hall of Fame.

774

Second base, Joe Morgan, hall of Fame.

775

Dave Conception on the shortstop

should be in the Hall of Fame.

776

Perenio perennial Gold,

Glover, perennial all star.

777

Third base, Pete Rose.

778

Well, we just talked about him.

779

I mean,

780

PSP: baseball.

781

Terence Moore: of Famer if

nothing else, he still holds

782

baseball record for all time hits.

783

field.

784

George Foster perennial all-star two.

785

Time home Run Champion Center Fielder

Cesar Geronimo, one of the greatest center

786

fielders of all time and one of the best.

787

at the bottom of a lineup.

788

a Peral Gold Glover, Ken Griffey Senior.

789

And by the way, I wrote the first

story ever about Ken Griffey senior's

790

son, some kid named Ken Griffey Jr.

791

And I wrote the story

about Ken Griffey Jr.

792

Which I write about the

book when Ken Griffey Jr.

793

Was eight

794

PSP: Just overlooked

795

Terence Moore: Ken Griffey Sr.

796

The father gets overlooked because

of the son, but Ken Griffey Sr.

797

Perennial All Star for the bigger

machine and his career betting average.

798

2 96.

799

I mean there it's a Anderson,

the manager Hall of Famer.

800

PSP: it was.

801

Terence Moore: Gillet, one of

the star pitchers for that team.

802

He was a, a flame thrower as a

teenager, right through his adult years.

803

Jack Billingham, one of the most

underrated clutch pitchers of all time,

804

his ERA in the World Series was sub 1.00

805

and, and the thing that made that

team so incomparable, like I mentioned

806

before, it wasn't just a slugging team.

807

They had speed, the best speed in

baseball, the best fielding in baseball,

808

but they also were charismatic.

809

Just so much, so many colorful players,

810

I want to tell you something,

the beautiful part of this, you

811

can get the book through me.

812

will autograph it at this website

and it's easy to remember.

813

It is my big red machine.com.

814

big red machine.com

815

comes directly to me.

816

Sign it, give it to you.

817

The ear, the early are just

going through the roof.

818

And I keep telling people,

I mean, of course I'm,

819

PSP: Gift,

820

Terence Moore: but you, you talk

about a great Christmas gift.

821

Oh my goodness

822

PSP: write the book

823

Terence Moore: this, this would be

if I were, if I didn't write the

824

book and I wanted something to give

825

PSP: and I can definitely cosign

not having seen your previous work.

826

And it's definitely gonna,

I don't already know.

827

It's in depth.

828

It's.

829

Very, very, it almost takes

you into the clubhouse.

830

You feel like you're in the riverfront

stadium with the players, with some

831

of the stories that you recount.

832

So definitely can co-sign

what you've said there.

833

Derek, it's been a pleasure to talk you

through you about my big Red machine and

834

some of the goings on around the league.

835

Is there anything else you

wanted to share with us?

836

Terence Moore: A quick thing,

because you've been so kind here,

837

but I'm gonna tell you two things

about this book that I'm very, very

838

PSP: Martyn

839

Terence Moore: One,

840

PSP: was broadcast

841

Terence Moore: was the

broadcaster for the Reds for 46

842

PSP: Bre,

843

Terence Moore: He

844

PSP: Baseball Hall of Fame.

845

Terence Moore: Marty

846

Brennaman told

847

PSP: he was.

848

Terence Moore: that when he read

this book, he was mesmerized.

849

He said

850

PSP: Marty

851

Terence Moore: in this book that he did

852

PSP: every day.

853

Terence Moore: Again, this is

854

PSP: The other guy,

855

Terence Moore: who was

with that team every

856

PSP: baseball Hall of Fame,

857

Terence Moore: other guy I wanna mention.

858

Baseball Hall of Fame writer

859

PSP: the big

860

Terence Moore: McCoy.

861

Hal McCoy covered the big red

machine for the Dayton Daily News.

862

He even

863

PSP: last Sunday.

864

Terence Moore: about

865

PSP: So.

866

Terence Moore: red machine.

867

Hal McCoy last Sunday Civil writes

a column for the Dayton Daily News

868

in his column That this is, he

said there's been dozens of books

869

written on the big round machine.

870

He said, this is the most unique book

ever written about the big round machine.

871

He said it was a great read and

he said that there are things in

872

this book that he did not know.

873

PSP: And

874

Terence Moore: me feel

875

PSP: yeah, really looking forward to

getting into those stories and more.

876

It's always a pleasure

to have you on Terry and.

877

Hope you enjoy , the rest of the

playoffs and we wish you well

878

with , the release of the book and

everything else that comes with it.

879

You're doing a fine work out there.

880

You can find Terry's work

when he is not writing books.

881

You can find his work@vos.com

882

and he's also making appearances all

around the beautiful sports world.

883

Terry, thank you for being on the show.

884

This has been another episode of PSP.