Navigating Client Fit in Coaching
This episode features a candid conversation between John and Angie on the challenges and realities of determining client fit in the coaching industry. They both emphasize the importance of a discovery call to assess compatibility, trust, and client coachability.
They discuss the early days of coaching, where the temptation is to accept every client, but they highlight the lessons learned from not vetting clients thoroughly.
The conversation covers the dynamics of the coach-client relationship, including managing expectations, dealing with uncoachable clients, and the importance of mutual respect and honesty.
Both stress the need for coaches to be clear about expectations and open to feedback for a successful coaching endeavour. They conclude by advocating for regular check-ins with clients to ensure satisfaction and progress, underscoring the evolution of a coach's approach over time.
00:00 Opening Banter: The Right Fit for Coaching
00:20 The Journey of a New Coach: Learning to Say No
04:10 The Importance of Coach-Client Compatibility
05:24 Criteria for Determining a Good Fit
10:06 Navigating Difficult Coaching Relationships
15:43 Setting Expectations and Being a Resource
23:35 The Art of Authentic Feedback and Continuous Improvement
John,
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:John: Angie
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:Angie: how do you know if a client
is the right fit for you as a coach?
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:John: I don't worry about that.
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:If they pay their money,
they get their coaching.
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:Angie: Really?
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:And does that ever cause
any problems for you?
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:John: Yes, endless problems.
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:Help me, Angie.
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:Angie: Okay, but you have to
say the magic words first.
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:John: Let's start the show.
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:Angie: Okay, so John, this is such an
interesting space because my feeling
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:is, and I think I did this, But when
you're starting out as a coach and you're
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:starting your practice that you don't
turn anybody away I think there's a
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:belief that you don't turn anybody away
and I don't know about you, but I learned
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:pretty quickly that we should not do that
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:John: 100%.
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:I don't know if there's any
coaches who don't go through this.
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:I'd love to hear from anyone
who hasn't had that experience.
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:they must have been very well
mentored to not go through that.
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:But yeah, for me, absolutely.
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:And, I would go further than that to say
that, Of course, there were people who
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:we just didn't gel as coach and client
and guess whose fault I thought that
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:was?
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:Angie: Shame on you
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:Right?
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:John: thought it was on me.
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:Yeah, I thought it was all on me.
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:I'm a bad coach.
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:Maybe I shouldn't be doing this.
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:So perhaps I've chosen the wrong job.
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:Maybe I should just go back to working
for my old airline or something like that.
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:Yeah, it happens a lot.
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:Angie: glad you didn't do that.
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:So glad you didn't listen to those stories
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:John: Me too.
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:Angie: yeah, because it's just not true.
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:There are so many things that can affect
coaching and not just in the one session,
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:but even like the overall process.
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:with a specific client.
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:And I think that one of the first things
that I, or the first mistakes that
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:I made was that if I had this belief
that if every session individually, Was
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:not a home run that I was a bad coach.
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:Now of course, I'm calling BS on that.
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:John: No, I did too.
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:I judge.
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:I think I was very much on a
curve of my coaching was only
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:as good as my last session.
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:So if a session had gone really
well i'd be feeling great Oh,
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:yeah, I did make the right choice.
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:I'm such a good coach blah blah blah.
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:Yeah Okay, maybe that was a bit a little
bit lacking in humility, but then Would
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:inevitably Be followed up at some point
by a session that really didn't go well.
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:In fact some absolute horrors came
up in my earlier days of coaching.
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:Now I know how to deal with
them, but then I didn't.
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:And I just thought it was me.
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:So when a client one time started
ranting at me over the phone, cause
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:this was a phone coaching I was
doing in my earlier days, not zoom.
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:We didn't even have that.
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:I figured it was me.
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:It was me that was the problem that
she was probably right with all the
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:stuff that she was saying It's like
I didn't have enough confidence in my
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:coaching ability to be able to handle
that and field it and say you know what?
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:Maybe we're just not a good fit
as coach and client because now I
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:think coaches are more like cologne,
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:know Well,
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:Angie: Tell
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:John: We could be very nice, and we
can have some nice fancy packaging,
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:but we're not right for everyone.
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:I'm
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:Angie: I agree.
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:I think I have to say, and obviously
that's where we were going with this, is
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:that we are not a fit for every client and
every client is not a fit for us, right?
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:That is part of my process.
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:I absolutely will always do about a
45 minute discovery call, not just
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:to say, Hey, what are your goals?
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:Let me show you how I can help you.
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:That's not it.
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:Okay.
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:Bye.
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:I'm doing it, and I even tell them, I will
even say to a prospect on the phone, this
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:is an opportunity for us to see Whether
we're a good fit, whether there's rapport,
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:whether we can build trust in each
other, you need to trust me as your coach
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:and I need to trust you as the client.
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:And there's always that, oh, oh,
like there's surprise because even
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:I think the clients maybe feel
like, It's an automatic fit, right?
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:Like I just want to come on this
discovery call and I just want to
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:tell you all the things I want to do.
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:And I want you to tell me that you
can help me and then we're going
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:to sign papers and do the contract.
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:And that is the worst, worst thing
that you could do as a coach is to
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:allow that to happen in that way.
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:So how do you do it, though?
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:How do you and this is a very, I'm
directing this at you how do you
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:decide whether somebody is a good fit?
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:What's the criteria?
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:John: Firstly, I need to know that there
Problem is the right kind of fit for
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:the sort of thing I'm looking to work
with and that the goal that they're
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:aiming for is something that I can
help them achieve and that we're going
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:to be able to clearly measure that.
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:I also am looking for their
coachability, are they going to be
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:responsive
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:to the coaching?
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:Are they going to be open to getting
some authentic feedback, which is
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:my nice way of saying tough love and
are we gonna have fun in the process?
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:Hopefully.
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:Angie: I love that because I
think my number one is I have
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:to, while I'm speaking to them,
I'm looking to get a feel.
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:Because it is a coaching session, right?
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:My Discovery Calls isn't just Q& A.
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:I'm kind of coaching them along, after the
first couple of minutes of introduction
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:and niceties and warming up a little bit.
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:And the number one thing that I'm looking
for, because we all know, if John's the
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:nice one, His level of tough love is very
different than mine, and that's okay.
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:I'm not saying that I'm,
browbeating anybody.
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:I'm just saying that I'm very direct.
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:So I need to see if the client, the
prospect is coachable through and through.
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:Right?
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:That they're not gonna
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:run when it gets tough.
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:That I'm not going to, put a nice little
bow on their problem and make it okay.
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:That's just, so their coachability is
the number one thing that I look for.
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:Because otherwise, it's a bad
experience for everybody can ruin your
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:reputation, and it can be exhausting.
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:Exhausting.
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:You're laughing because you
know what I'm talking about.
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:John: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
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:It's just different styles.
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:I want to get a sense very clearly that
we're both going to get better things
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:So I want to frame it up for them that
it's okay At the end of our chat if they
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:feel it's not the right fit I want them
to be able to say so honestly Without
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:feeling that there's going to be any
problem that we can still walk away
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:friends and that I will do the same for
them and If I'm not the right fit for
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:them as a coach, I'll do my best to try
and direct them to who I think would be.
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:Angie: You and I did that
right before the show, right?
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:I think it's great to be a resource
for somebody I think that people
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:so appreciate that you're not just
going, sorry, we're not a good fit.
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:Good luck in your search.
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:You're giving them direction A lot can
happen in 45 minutes to an hour, right?
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:In a conversation, if
you're a good coach, right?
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:So I think being a resource for
somebody is something that they may
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:even refer you and say, you know what?
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:I didn't end up using Angie or John,
but they directed me to somebody
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:and What a great experience that
was I wasn't left high and dry
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:because obviously they're coming to
you and even having a Conversation
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:because there's a need in their life.
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:There's something they need So I think
that is an amazing best practice and
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:Making that introduction is a phenomenal
way to continue to build that rapport
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:and build that relationship with somebody
and honor them Right still serve.
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:John: But basically, I think you
also need to dig straight into
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:what's really going on for them.
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:And so you don't just want
it to be a nice conversation.
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:You want to really get into it
and get the sense of, do you feel
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:that reading between the lines
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:are they giving you
what's really going on?
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:Yeah.
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:Or are you going to be, at
some point uncovering a whole
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:cat of worms, potentially.
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:You do want to get that sense for them,
and ideally even maybe be able to deliver
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:a little bit of magic in that first
session to help with what's going on for
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:them, if you are the right coach for them.
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:So, I think that initial session is
going to set the tone for everything
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:you do together, and if it doesn't go
well, then that's a very clear sign
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:that that's not going to be a good fit.
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:Angie: definitely.
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:Absolutely.
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:And I think, getting rid
of that hero mentality.
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:So what do I mean by that?
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:That I can work with anybody.
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:I can fix anybody, which is not really
what coaching is, but I can help anybody.
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:I can save anybody,
whatever, fill in the blank.
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:That is, sometimes you need to let that
go and say, no, this isn't going to work.
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:And I've had to do it.
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:I've not even just said no.
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:Maybe there have been times when
I've gone against my instinct
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:cause I felt like, well, maybe.
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:And then by like session two, I'm
thinking this is a really bad fit.
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:So I will do a re reconnect and
say, let's just have another
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:real conversation and gauge it.
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:Okay.
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:And if it's not going to work, I am very
respectful and I've had to, I've probably
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:done that like twice in my career where
I'm already in the relationship and
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:I've had to break off the relationship.
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:Had to do it.
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:And the last thing that I do in that
scenario is I don't want the person to
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:feel rejected I really make it about them.
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:You know what now that we're doing
some work together I feel like there
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:might be better options for you
because of You know give them the
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:couple of reasons why I don't go
around telling that they're fucked up.
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:That's not it okay, that's not it because
we all are let's just face it, but having
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:enough respect for them and the craft and
the art of coaching and maturity to say,
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:you know what, this is not going to work.
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:I don't want to have a 45 or 60
minute session that feels like I've
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:been on a treadmill at high speed at
the maximum incline for eight hours.
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:And it's happened, so that
could be an indicator too.
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:It's not just, are they receptive?
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:They can be receptive, but
they can also be exhausting.
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:So that's something that I watch
out for because I'm, believe
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:it or not, Very empathetic.
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:I absorb energy, so I have to be
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:very
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:John: we, we, all do as coaches,
I think we all do, we all, we are
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:all at risk of getting a little
bit too attached or associated into
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:whatever issues we're hearing about.
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:But, I think this might be where I'm
perhaps turn the tape, turn the tide of
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:opinion about who's the nice one here.
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:Because we might handle this
thing a little bit differently.
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:But I say this just to just be
honest about where I am as a coach.
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:So I did have a client one time,
like she was showing up for her
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:sessions and all she would really
do is complain, complain about work,
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:complain about family, complain about
how crappy her life was and as a coach.
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:I ain't got time for it.
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:I'm not interested in spending 30 minutes
once a week hearing somebody complain.
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:It's like, okay, yeah,
she's paying for the time.
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:It's her time to use for that.
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:But I don't want it.
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:I don't want to take that on.
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:And I don't want to hear it.
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:And I don't want to deal with it.
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:I'm not the right coach for her.
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:Put her with another coach who's much
more tolerant than I am, and so she
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:could go in there and do that, but
who also was, he was doing a very nice
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:job of bringing her down and actually
getting her into some conversation,
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:which I was perhaps struggling to do.
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:On those calls because it was just
letting her rip and go on the rants.
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:I don't want to work
with people like that.
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:I want to work with people who want to
get down to it, who show up with some
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:good energy, with an intent to make things
happen, or with an issue that they really
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:want to deal with, not just whinging
about how bad things are for them.
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:Angie: Yeah, I think there's some
people out there, mentors of mine even.
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:I've worked for a couple of coaching
companies, as you know, and there was
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:some really intensive training involved.
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:And a lot of it is, getting them out
of, cause I call that, you know, I
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:call that dirty diaper syndrome, right?
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:Who wants to sit in a dirty diaper?
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:It's a visual I use with my clients.
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:It's a lot when I feel that they're
getting stuck and I'll say to them,
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:let me just pause for a minute.
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:Like, how long do you want
to sit in that dirty diaper?
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:And they look, they go, what,
like, what are you talking about?
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:And I say, well, a dirty diaper.
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:Think about it.
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:It's not pleasant.
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:It's actually a little shocking that
I would say something so disgusting.
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:That's the point that I'm bringing out.
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:If you're sitting and if you're not going
to, the answer is you're not going to.
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:And mindset can become that.
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:So I think sometimes when I throw
them that visual, it jars them
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:out of it, but it doesn't always
solve the problem ongoing, right?
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:Because some people just do like
to complain and I'm with you.
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:If they're, I'll give them like,
I'll give them like, The one or two
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:kind of get out of jail free card.
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:I'll do my best to, pivot
them and shift them a bit.
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:And if they just can't get out of
their own way, then I'm with you.
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:And I love, listen, I tease and
I say, John is the softer one.
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:And I would say that John is extremely
and maybe it's your background.
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:I don't know.
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:But.
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:He doesn't mess around.
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:Like he's very upfront and
doesn't sugarcoat anything.
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:I think it's just our delivery
method that's different.
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:John: think it's just people hear
my accent and they think I'm, I've
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:just come out of Downton Abbey or
something and and I seem that I seem
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:polite and I'm reasonably well spoken.
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:I think that probably is what it is.
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:But i'm not rude, i'm not rude.
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:I'm not looking to offend anyone
I'm not looking to upset anyone.
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:I want to always want to frame stuff
up in a way that it's going to be well
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:received and that to be honest, you
don't ideally you don't want your clients
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:becoming defensive unless you have a
very Interesting coaching strategy,
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:sometimes a bit of provocative coaching
actually, you know is what is relevant
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:But you probably don't want to be doing
provocative coaching and a discovery
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:Probably so we'll maybe get onto that
another time, but I'm not even going
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:to have the money conversation, the
logistics conversation or anything
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:like that until I know they're a fit.
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:And if they're going but I really need
to know how much this is going to be.
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:The only thing I'm going to ask him
is the money a concern right now?
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:Are you worried that you won't
be able to afford my services?
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:And If that's the case, then, okay,
maybe this isn't the best time
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:for us to have this conversation.
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:That's the thing I'm gonna, that's the
thing I'm gonna get out of the way first.
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:And if you say, no, no, it's not that.
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:Then fine, let's have the conversation
and then we'll figure out if we're
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:the right fit, we'll have, we'll carry
on with that part of the conversation
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:where we talk about how this works.
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:Angie: Yeah, I think, yeah, I think
keeping some some semblance of
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:process within the sessions, or even
in that first conversation, I think
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:they, that it makes sense to do that.
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:We don't want to come in willy nilly.
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:I'm not saying we have to stick rigid to
something, but I think that some of my
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:best sessions with people that it works
best when I do have a difficult client.
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:And honestly, I think a lot of my
clients just are difficult because
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:their challenges are difficult.
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:It's not necessarily
that they're difficult.
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:And I think keeping some kind of
process in play makes it so much
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:easier to go through the session
and not having the expectation.
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:of this is what we need
to get out of today.
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:We can set intention for sure, but I think
we also need to know how to keep the flow
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:so that it can still happen organically,
if that even makes sense, right?
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:John: Yeah I would look at it also as a
way to practice being authentically honest
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:with your clients or potential clients.
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:Because it is that.
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:It's like you, you are going to have
to get comfortable at saying no to
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:people who are not a right fit for you.
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:And saying it in the way that's
going to make them feel that
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:you are doing it for them.
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:Not not it's not that you don't like
them It's just that this isn't going to
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:work out well because you don't feel the
fit and maybe actually saying why that
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:is So so that there can be clarity on
that as well or why you think they might
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:be better off working with someone else
I think that's all good practice and
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:it's going to help you perhaps be a bit
more honest And direct in your coaching.
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:Framing things in the right way,
that's gonna allow people to respect
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:what you say more as a coach,
because they feel that they're gonna
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:get some honest feedback from you.
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:Angie: I think, yes, I think that
you're 10, 000 percent correct on that.
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:And I think one of the, one of the
ways that you can do that so that it is
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:received well in case it doesn't work
out is when you get on that call, right?
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:Hey, how are you?
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:It's great.
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:Says, glad you're here.
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:Curious to find out what brought
you here, what you're looking for.
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:Before we get started.
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:I just want to be clear on a few things,
what the purpose is of this call.
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:It is not just for me to find out
what your problems and challenges are.
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:It's to see if we're a good
fit and that would include
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:up, up, up, up, up, whatever.
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:And then say.
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:So that at the end of the call, if I
think that maybe I'm not the best fit for
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:you and what you need, I can then maybe
refer you to somebody who is, because
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:obviously you're looking to make changes.
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:You're looking to get
better at X, Y, or Z.
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:I saw what you filled out.
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:That's the expectation.
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:So I think if you say something like
that in the beginning, if it does
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:come down to it not being a good fit.
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:They've already been told that that's a
possibility, that it just may not work.
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:I may not be a right fit for you.
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:We're going to have that
conversation and no harm, no foul.
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:So it doesn't get taken personally.
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:And again, they don't feel rejected.
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:Because I think that's a horrible
feeling because again, most people I
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:think just go, Oh, I chose the coach.
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:So therefore it's a match.
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:And that's not the case at all.
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:Setting that standard or that
expectation right at the beginning
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:Hey, this is what we do during, this
is what I do during a discovery call.
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:Then I think it feel it takes away the
sting a bit in case it doesn't work out.
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:John: have you ever had this
situation, which I've had, if
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:I'm gonna pay you 10,000 bucks.
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:what happens if I don't get my money's
worth or how am I going to make sure
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:that I get value for money before
you've even started working together?
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:Angie: Yeah, so I get less
than I'm really clear.
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:I think I've had a couple of
people because some of my coaching
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:is more than that, but Right.
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:So they're looking for the value add.
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:And first thing I say is number one,
neither of us has a crystal ball.
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:I don't know how this is going to turn
out, but I will tell you that there's
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:a couple of components that are going
to directly affect your outcomes.
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:Number one, what is it
that you're looking for?
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:What is right now you're
coming in with a certain goal.
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:What is that goal?
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:Number two, are you open to things that
you haven't even thought of, right?
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:Because that's the beauty of
coaching is like something
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:popped up that I didn't expect.
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:And number three, how
are you gauging that?
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:How are you going to gauge the success
of this relationship or this journey?
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:I think if we talk about that now,
There's an understanding, right?
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:But if you come to me at the end
of 10 or 12 sessions or whatever
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:it is in the program or the process
I don't want to be surprised.
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:I want to know what their expectation
is, what they're really looking for.
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:And I think that's part
of that vetting process.
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:Because if they say I don't know if
it's a business coaching situation or
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:leadership or something and they say
I want to be making a million dollars
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:at my job by the end of this, I'm
going to be like, wait a minute, what?
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:Yeah.
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:Me too.
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:Where's my Lambo?
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:But, um, do you know what I mean?
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:Like I want to see what their
expectation is so I can coach into
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:that and see, is that really the
thing or is it pie in the sky?
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:Come on, is it realistic?
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:Derek.
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:and I tell them, I said, you know what?
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:I am the coach.
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:I am the pace car of what we do, right?
386
:I know that you trust me.
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:I have to trust that there's things that
you're going to be responsible for showing
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:up vulnerable, showing up authentic.
389
:And I think that vulnerability
piece is the key.
390
:So I asked them, are you willing to?
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:And I actually make them make that
commitment in the conversation.
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:And it's also in my paperwork.
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:We've agreed, we've spoken about this.
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:Y
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:John: He's what I love that and I agree
that you want to get that level of clarity
396
:on the relationship together and the
outcomes that are expected, but I'd also
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:say one of the things I'll frame up with
them as well is it is your responsibility
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:to direct me on how to do that.
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:You're being coached.
400
:So if you're not feeling happy with a
coaching session or you don't feel that
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:you have clarity or that the coaching
isn't going well, if it turns out that
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:this discovery call decision to work
together has not been the right decision,
403
:I want you to be honest about that and be
honest about it sooner rather than later.
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:And we will figure it out and we will
find a very nice way to be able to
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:park company as friends And make sure
that we move on from there But yeah,
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:like you said if we wait too long on
that or if you get to the end of it
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:all and it's that was a waste of money.
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:I'm not gonna give you your money back.
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:It's like
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:Angie: No, no, no.
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:And I don't think that we should
because it would be very easy for
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:somebody to go, yeah, you know what?
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:I want my $10,000 back.
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:That wasn't what I thought.
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:Well, really.
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:So we do have to set that
expectation from the beginning.
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:John: Yeah
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:Angie: and then the other thing
that I do though is I do a check-in
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:at the end of every session.
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:And then I do a incremental check in.
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:So if they sign up, let's just say
for 12 sessions every fourth session
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:at the end of the fourth session,
I go, okay, over the last four
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:sessions, this is what we've done.
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:how do you feel about that?
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:Is there anything that you
would like to see different?
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:And I will ask them, do
you need more, tough love?
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:Do you need more compassion?
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:What is going to enhance this
experience in going forward?
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:So.
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:I do do that check in because our
perception that things are going
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:well doesn't mean that's true.
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:And then on the opposite, sometimes
we think, I don't feel like
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:I'm giving them what they need.
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:But meantime, they're like, Oh my
gosh, I value this, this, and this,
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:this is what's changing for me.
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:Oh, It's not for us to decide what's
really moving the needle sometimes.
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:We have to really listen
to what they want.
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:So I do those two things.
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:I, at the end of every session I'll
ask, what they loved or what they valued
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:or fill in the blank in that session.
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:Not because I need the pat on
the back, but because I want to
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:gauge what worked for them in that
particular session and then doing
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:those incremental check ins as well.
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:John: Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:We should always be hungry for feedback.
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:Angie: on the pulse.
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:Yeah.
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:John: Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:We need feedback from our clients
and we should check in, make sure
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:that we check in with them regularly.
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:And I think some coaches are
afraid of getting the feedback,
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:but you can't be, it's going to,
it's going to be how you improve.
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:I think this has been a good conversation.
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:I think we've come up with some
really cool stuff that is hopefully
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:helpful if you're thinking about
how do you get the right kind of
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:clients and what do you do if somebody
isn't the right kind of client?
460
:Well, maybe in your early days, you will
work with them and you just have to deal
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:with it and get the lessons from that
same as most coaches do, but at some
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:point, at some point you're going to
need to start saying no and firing those
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:clients who are a pain in the backside.
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:And that's where you're really going
to start to take off as a coach.
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:This has been a lot of fun, Angie.
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:I've really enjoyed this conversation.
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:Should we come back and
do it again next time?
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:Angie: I think so.
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:Bye.
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:John: All right, well come and join us
for that and do remember tell your friends
471
:about us and we'll see you next time