The JudgeMental Podcast | EP 28 Literally Zero

Welcome to another episode of the JudgeMental Podcast, the podcast where we pull back the curtain on the realities of the legal system! This week, we dive into the shocking emptiness of Pinellas County courthouses, the rise of Zoom court, and what it means for lawyers, litigants, and the future of justice.

We debate the pros and cons of remote hearings, the impact on transparency, and whether the human element of law is being lost. If you’re a law student, attorney, or just fascinated by the evolving world of justice, this episode is for you.

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🔗 Subscribe for more candid legal conversations: https://www.youtube.com/@Judgingthejudges

💬 Who do you agree with? Christine or Hugh? Let us know in the comments!

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You are listening to The Judgemental Podcast.

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Hugh: We're Hugh and Christine, the

Minds Behind Judgy, the revolutionary app

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that empowers you to judge the judges.

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Christine: It's pastime for

judicial accountability and

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transparency within the courts.

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Hugh: Prepare for sharp insights, candid

critiques, and unshakable honesty from

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two lawyers determined to save the system.

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Song: We need some justice.

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Justice, my fine justice.

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And I wanna ring, be in public.

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I wanna ring, be in public crowd.

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Yeah.

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4 Camera 4: Scene.

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Zero.

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Literally judicial roll call,

Pinellas County in Florida.

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Zero judges, zero lawyers, and

zero family court litigants.

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I think like I am shook beyond.

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Yeah, I, I found that, you know, I,

I know that you had posted something

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on your personal social media because

you were so shocked and you had

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text, been texting me about how, you

know, something must be up and then

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it occurred to you that it might be.

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An actual holiday, like a religious

holiday, which was actually happening

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the next day and thought, oh my God,

I, I did this and it's actually a

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holiday and they should be closed.

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And then you remembered number one

that yeah, it's not, it wasn't a

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holiday and that you spoke with people

that were over there that just said,

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no, this is just what it's like.

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Yep.

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And the sheriff's

office, I was so shocked.

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And you know, obviously it's Florida

and so, you have like those overpasses

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or whatever where things are outside.

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So you walk from one

courthouse to the other.

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But I went through, I got there at 10 0 2

on a Tuesday, and there was one bailiff.

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He was so nice.

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Very similar to Louisville.

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They're all sheriff's office and he just

said, yeah, they're all zoom all the time.

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Nothing's happening today.

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We're gonna have a

hearing the following day.

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And so actually the

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following day wasn't Yom,

Kippur starts at sunset.

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So it was a working day.

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Then I went over to the other

courthouse and completely empty.

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I went up to the floor where

they do family court and the

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bailiff was like this asleep.

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I startled them.

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Well, so I mean, were you able to confirm

whether or not they were in their chambers

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in their courtrooms having Zoom hearings?

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They weren't in their courtrooms.

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I did recording in the hallway and

I, I posted, and this is what's

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concerning to me, and we'll jump

in, you know, to this conversation

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that's been weighing on us heavily.

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We need to do like a sit down for this,

but the post, the responses that I get

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when I post these empty courthouses is

there's a visceral reaction of either.

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You know, pro or against instead of

just like thinking, logically thinking.

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But I didn't post in the courtrooms

because I didn't wanna get in trouble, but

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all the courtrooms were completely empty.

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There was no court happening

all day on a Tuesday.

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Everything was Zoom and they weren't

zooming from their courtrooms.

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So it's interesting.

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So the, did you confirm that there

were Zoom hearings or Zoom appearances

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happening that day, or, I mean.

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You don't know?

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I don't know.

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I know it would be from

a, oh, yeah, sorry.

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You're good, you're good.

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I know the Sheriff's Office were very

much, were like, this is how it is.

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And I was, you know, being me

just like, this is insane what's

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happening in this country.

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One sheriff was very much like,

well, you know how divorces go.

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And I'm like, yes I do.

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And again, that gaslighting.

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Like speaking, no one in

Louisville would ever speak to

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me like that at a courthouse.

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But just this, oh, dumb little girl.

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You don't know what you're talking about.

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I'm like, I'm an attorney in

Kentucky and we've got a podcast.

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I gave them my card.

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And we talk about, you know,

judges and their work ethic and

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then, which, you know, there was

like a self-help desk, but empty.

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There were like 10 or 11 sheriffs,

zero judges, zero lawyers, Tuesday.

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Yeah, that's, that's really surprising.

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I, I'd be interested to know if they're

zooming from Chambers or, I mean, you

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would think that there would be, you

know, everything that I've done and

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I've, I've appeared by Zoom in Florida.

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Courts not in that county, but everything

was, you know, still recorded in the

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courtroom from chambers on an official

record and everything that I appeared on.

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So I, I would be interested

to know that, but I would also

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really be interested to know.

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How long it takes to get a hearing there?

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I still follow certain family litigation

in Florida from my previous practice.

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There are some cases I'm still interested

in that my previous firm is, is handling,

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and I know how slowly those develop

through the court systems and how long

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it is to get, how, how long it takes

to get a substantive hearing on things.

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So I wonder if in Pinellas County.

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It takes a long time to get

a hearing, and if so, why?

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If you're, if the courtrooms are sitting

empty now, if it doesn't take long

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to get a hearing, I would be really

interested to know how the process there

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works and why, why no one needs those

courtrooms you on a, on a regular basis.

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But yeah, a lot of questions, but

that's, I mean, just the fact that

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nobody, you didn't see anybody as if the

courts were not actually functioning.

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No, I was like, am I in the matrix?

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Is this another, you know,

like is this reality?

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There was no sign that it was an

operating courthouse where cases

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are litigated and I don't wanna.

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Hear this Zoom.

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I mean, first off, I don't think there

are cameras in courtrooms in Florida.

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I'm not positive, and it could be

county by county, but one of the

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members of the sheriff's office,

and I talked to like 10 of them, so

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they won't be able to figure out.

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They said there's one

judge they've never met.

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Yeah.

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Now that's shocking like that.

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That makes absolutely no sense.

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Now if they've moved everything

remote, I mean that explains a lot.

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And I know the cases that

I've been in, I mean.

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I don't know if, if you're talking about

video records of what's happening, whether

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or not they have that, I don't know.

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All I know is when I appeared by Zoom

in Florida courts, it was sort of

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the same as what you were used to.

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And I was used to, after the pandemic,

you were on a meeting, the speaker

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was highlighted, you could kind

of have some control over who you

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pinned on your screen and who you

wanted to watch, and the evidence was

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shown and it, it worked really well.

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And it was it was actually great because.

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I, I was very involved in the case.

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It was, it was essential for me

to be there, but also, even though

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the client, you know, this was a,

a very, very high value case where

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they were spending a lot of money.

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I, you know, to fly me down

there for 30 minute hearings

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would've been absolutely stupid.

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So, I mean, I, I found

it to be very useful.

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I know you and I disagree on

the usefulness of, of remote

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courts in a lot of ways.

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So I'd, I'd like to know,

have they moved all you, just

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everything to Zoom and if so, yep.

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Correct.

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How's it working?

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Well, I've got a comment from attorneys.

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Been an attorney for the last 12 years.

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I'm a litigator.

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Haven't been to court in five years.

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Also a Florida attorney, okay?

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But I will tell you this, this

is like danger, danger, sirens.

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If everything is zoom court lawyers,

people in law school need to understand.

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That the legal profession is

done, it's gonna be all ai.

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I understand the notion that like

some things can be done via Zoom and

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all of this stuff, but if you are in

law school right now and you have a

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desire to sit on a screen like this and

litigate cases you need to immediately

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seek mental health treatment because

there's something wrong with you, okay?

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You're not okay.

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You're not right.

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Get help.

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Okay?

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I loved it.

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I loved it.

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Now, there were, it, it posed some.

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Difficulties in some aspects of litigation

and being able to examine witnesses

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like , there were some definite issues

there, but at the same time, as we've

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talked about a lot on this podcast, so

much of your trial work is just making

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a record for the inevitable appeal.

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And when you are putting documents

actually on the vis the video record

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and what you're showing, the witness

is showing up on the screen, man, that

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makes the appellate work so much easier.

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Hugh, there will be no appellate court

if every, you have to understand that

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you practiced in a real courtroom

for 15 years before this happened.

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That's true, and had a

shit ton of experience.

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But if you wanna see what's happening

in Zoom Court, the public is not

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gonna have access because there's

not gonna be anywhere to watch it.

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These judges will be able

to do whatever they want.

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Whenever they want.

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People won't know what's happening.

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Lawyers will be in little boxes screaming

on the phone to other people, and judges

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will be able to do whatever they want.

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And how will you ever be able

to have a record for appeal?

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Where's it held?

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Well, I don't think , that's not distinct

from the, the issue of whether or not

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they're making a record, a video record.

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If there's a video record, there's

a video record and it's easier

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to make a video record and.

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Much easier to argue against

against someone who says, oh,

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we shouldn't keep video records.

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If it's all done by Zoom.

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It's the push of one button

that's full accountability

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that people can access that.

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And if you have a public Zoom link,

other people could, could get involved.

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I mean, I, I don't, don't have a stroke.

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I think, I think you could easily

have people in the courtrooms.

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By Zoom you do right now.

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I mean, when you watch motion

hour, so you want Peter Theil

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to have access to court records.

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Where are these court records held?

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How do we establish it's a court record?

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I mean, I don't think it changes anything.

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If you're keeping the same kind

of record you kept inside the

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courtroom, it doesn't change.

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I mean, we, we know that there are

issues with court record access and, and

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how they're handled, but I think it's

separate from the in-person versus Zoom.

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'cause the records are the same

regardless of how you do it.

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So you think that court should be

conducted from someone's living room?

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You should be.

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Your kid should be getting abused.

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And you should be zooming into someone's

million dollar home and then sitting

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there smoking a cigarette, da da da da da.

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Putting, being able to hit mute

on you and be like, I gotta

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go take a dip in the pool.

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And this record's gonna

be uploaded to the cloud.

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No, I, I, you know, drop outta law school

people, listeners, drop outta law school.

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Do something productive with

your life that is very different.

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That's like getting into an argument over.

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Oh, I think court is failing because,

you know, pro se people are showing

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up in their PJs and the judges

are just going ahead with things.

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I mean, no, it's still gotta

be conducted correctly.

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, I will tell you from my client's point

of view, they saved a ton of money

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with, with Zoom stuff, especially

the clients that I had to deal with

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on dependency, neglect, and abuse.

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Now, there was always an issue.

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Oftentimes I would have someone that

was over there in the court anyway.

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It was nice to be a part of a firm

big enough to make sure they didn't

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go forward with the case without me.

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And most of the time we

were there in person.

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But so many of the cases, like on motion

hour, if you are sitting there and having

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to sit through several divisions where

you don't have anything and you're,

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you're, you're having to charge clients

to be there because you're waiting

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for another hearing to get finished.

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It was the same way with mediations.

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I always told my clients.

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If we were at a mediation and

we've been going for hours, and

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I would give 'em to the clients.

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I'd say if we need to discuss anything

further while the mediator's in the other

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room, it may be an hour, maybe 45 minutes.

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Let's discuss it.

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Let's go through all this.

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But I get to give you the option of

I can go off the clock, I can work

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on something else, and I will message

you right when I, when I come back

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and I can actually save you the money.

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And it saved people so much money.

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And, , it's just not human.

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It's not human component.

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And again, I do, I want to hear your

argument about the fact that you had 15

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years experience before it went remote.

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Yeah, that's what I think you're missing.

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You had the ability to

do client management.

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You understood a courtroom, you

understood the rules of evidence.

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I understood stood do client management.

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I had so many Zoom hearings.

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, I would have the client sitting

in the conference room next to me.

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We'd have it set up

just like the courtroom.

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It's just.

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I would get to use digital

copies of evidence.

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I didn't have to, to say that's not okay.

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Everyone turned to page 378, paragraph

two, where the little sticker is, and

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then listened of papers and everyone

go, oh, in this binder or this binder,

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like, I could share it on the screen.

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I, I would not lose my momentum.

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I would go straight through

it with my witnesses.

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I loved it.

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No, I.

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I understand that you're a high asset

attorney, but you're not answering the

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question of how long would you have made

it as a family law attorney if you never

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went foot stepped foot in a courtroom,

and you just immediately got your little

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cubicle and you got a microphone like

this, and you had a telephone and clients

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called you and you called opposing counsel

and told them where to go, and then you

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sat on a screen and you watched TikTok

Judge apply eyelashes and makeup with

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her O light yelling at your clients.

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How long would you have made

it as a family law attorney?

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I think that's less of a systemic

question than a personal one.

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The personal one for me is I

wouldn't have, the reason I

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did family law is I like the

performative aspect of it and Yep.

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But that's a personal preference.

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That's not a, you know, whether it is a

systemic good or evil, it's, I never went

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into the practice to do family law, but I,

you know, I grew up playing in bands and

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being on stage and doing things like that.

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Usually shied away from public speaking,

but I was amazed at the first time I got

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into court for something substantive.

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It was family law.

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Mm-hmm.

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And I was exhilarated by the, the

arguments and being, being up and

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in front of the judge loved it,

but that doesn't necessarily mean

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it was any more or less effective.

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, It definitely does and it definitely

means that there won't be good

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litigators going into family law.

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There will be people that are billing

people $550 an hour to appoint 17

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experts to do everything behind backdoor

deals because no one with any sense

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would ever agree to sit in a box and

argue with the family court Judge,

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I win.

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Yeah.

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I don't know about that.

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I would much rather do it from.

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Sitting where I'm sitting.

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I loved so First of all,

you've seen my computer setups.

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They are large, they are ridiculous.

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They are geeky.

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I loved the fact that I could be in.

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Court and have two or three separate

monitors going with different things,

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and someone can be testifying and I

could be looking and doing, running a

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search and look at what they're actually

testifying about to contradict them.

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Like I, the access to the information,

the judge making a ruling on something.

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And as soon as I know that they

are wrong on the rule of evidence,

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I'm typing up the rule of evidence

that's popping up on my screen so

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I can run a counterargument to it.

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It from a litigant point of view.

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It's different, but from a

litigator point of view, yeah,

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there were definitely pros and cons.

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Did I want to be the guy that was on Zoom

when everyone else was in the courtroom?

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No, I saw that as a disadvantage.

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I would not do that, and I usually

try to find out who was actually

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gonna be there in person, because

there is that personal connection.

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But I think that's different than

if the whole system moves over.

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You know, do something that's,

that's actually virtual.

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, I billed for my time driving.

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I did anything that, I worked on a case.

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Yeah.

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I, I billed and it, it cost me money,

but it, it gave me sanity because I could

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actually maximize my time and actually,

you know, use my time for work and not

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for, for driving or waiting for a judge

to show up 30 minutes late for a hearing.

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Yeah.

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I think that it's just

like missing the point.

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Like, I think if you, if we

think family court is bad now.

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I think if it goes completely to zoom

and yes, I got message after I posted

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this, after dm after df, 18 months

for a hearing, nothing ever gets done.

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Yeah.

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You know, all of this stuff, the lack

of humanity, like not going to court in

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person, you don't understand the severity

and then talking about litigators, how you

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can just look up the rules of evidence.

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Well, they can just have a computer screen

up reading a transcript of what to say,

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who knows who's feeding them information,

how do we sequester witnesses?

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It's just not real court.

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It's not real court.

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Well, people could do that anyway.

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I mean, you have a binder.

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I would have a binder for my client

and it would have all kinds of

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different things that they can look at.

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A fucking lawyer let you,

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Sorry.

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Whoa.

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Are we recording?

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Yeah, we're still going.

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Okay, so you had a lawyer, I won't

say the F word, that let a client

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testify with notes on the stand.

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So , that's not actually

what I was referring to.

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Well, you, you talked about transcripts.

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When I think of transcripts

you were talking about like

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what to say as testimony.

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I was thinking of.

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A transcript of like a

deposition that they had.

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So my, so we, we, we might've been arguing

two different things, unfortunately.

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'cause that was kind of fun.

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But I know what I, what I'm talking

about though is there's a trial binder.

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I would've walked the

client through it, right?

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Yeah.

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So if they're up on the stand,

they're getting cross-examined

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and someone says a deposition, you

said blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

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My client could say, well,

actually that's not what I said.

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If you'll give me a moment,

I have it right here.

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Is it all right?

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And the judge will say,

yeah, go ahead and find it.

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And they'll find the spot

and they can go through it.

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So I would make sure that they

had access to all of that stuff

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anyway, I guess I could have put a

transcript on how to testify up there.

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You're right.

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It would've been more obvious

that they were reading it.

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So , if your argument is, there's

a lot more room for people to

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do unethical practice stuff.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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And I've caught deponents.

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You know, that are clearly reading

things, they're looking off to the

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side and you're thinking, oh, you're

not actually looking off to the side

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because that's where your camera is.

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You're looking off to the side because

you are actually looking and referencing

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documents and in which case I, we would

call 'em out on it and make them provide

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every single thing that they've looked at.

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Now, whether or not they

actually do, you never know.

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So I, no, I mean, there's something there.

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There's gotta be some, you

gotta make the rules clear, but

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yeah, that's true.

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I mean, it could, it could

allow for lazy practice, right?

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I want to, I want to prepare my clients

for what to say, not that I'm telling them

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what to say, but I want them to expect

what's going to be asked of them so they

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can answer it in an intelligent way.

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And they're not just sort of

shooting from the hip because they

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didn't see that coming or whatever.

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I wanna prepare them for it so that.

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They can do that.

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I guess people will stop preparing clients

to the extent that they are the way that

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I did, and maybe start just giving them

a transcript to look at on the screen.

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Yeah.

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I can definitely see that, but, well,

I think the bigger thing is the notion

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that pro se people could take advantage

of it, but court is just not meant to be

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major things aren't meant to be remote.

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I, you know, I, I think we had a

lot of things during the pandemic

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we could have made better, but we're

just gonna have empty courthouses.

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People won't be able to watch court.

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I mean, what would you have

done when you first started?

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I used to just sit in court

and watch other lawyers.

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You know, if everything's just

remote, you'll never be able to.

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See anything.

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I just think it's really dangerous.

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I still think, I mean you, like I

said, you go to motion hour and yeah,

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sometimes we go down there in person,

but a lot of times it's by Zoom.

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People can still do that.

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The public Zoom links are still

on, at least here in Kentucky.

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Jefferson County, they

won't let you in hearings.

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Not hearings.

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You're right.

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They won't want you in hearings.

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No, no, no.

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I mean, but that.

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If we allow less transparency within

the court, I'm not arguing for it's,

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there's gonna be more problems arguing.

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I'm saying you can have, have both.

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Oh, , I'm saying you can have both.

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If it's all gonna move to Zoom, then

you have to have the courts open by

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Zoom the same way you presumably would

allowing people to walk in, in person.

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Now it's questionable whether or

not that actually exists in places

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that, you know, say that it exists.

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But , I think that it isn't a

technical limitation of Zoom.

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To be able to have people sit and observe.

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I think you're right.

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, Newer attorneys aren't gonna be

able to sit there in the court

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and see how things are practiced.

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I don't know how, there are a couple

people I like to watch people practice

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and sit in when I was, when I was younger,

but , I mean, there are also, you can

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go get videos of trials and hearings of

things the same way we do now when we

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wanna see what's going on with hearings.

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I learned, I learned as much from that.

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That's wild.

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I mean, you want the OJ

Simpson trial to be remote.

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You want jurors to be, zooming in?

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No, no.

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I think, I think, I think I'm, I'm

thinking more about my sphere within

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the, the family court where I practice.

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I think you're, you're, you're

adjudicating people's political

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rights and things like that remotely.

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Now I know they do have preliminary

hearings and things like that where

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the judge is remote when people are

over at the jail and, and I get some

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of those things where you're not

wanting to transport an entire room

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f full of people over one at a time

to have to have something small.

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But I, I don't know.

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I haven't, I haven't actually

considered for, for criminal

440

type things or jury type trials.

441

I don't know how that would be done.

442

And I also don't know that

anybody's doing them remotely.

443

I mean, you're talking about,

I don't think a problem

444

that may not actually exist.

445

No, but I think that, so you don't have

a problem with tax paid courthouses being

446

completely empty because everything being

done on Zoom is gonna, it would work well.

447

I think that you just need

to make a decision on how

448

you're gonna handle things.

449

And if you don't need the courtrooms,

then we shouldn't be paying for them.

450

I'm not saying you leave

them sitting empty.

451

If you're gonna move everything

to Zoom, then you know, make

452

the best use of the resources.

453

No, I'm, I'm just curious.

454

So like, that would mean

no courthouses at all.

455

Where would the records,

they're all in the cloud.

456

Well, where are they now?

457

That's where they are now.

458

They're stored on, or if not a cloud,

something far less secure like a

459

local server at your local courthouse

and only preserved Well, there's a

460

file, there's an actual hard file.

461

Yeah, but it doesn't have any of the

record that what's going on in the court.

462

Like, yeah, the record

is just the pleadings.

463

All of that stuff exists

in the cloud anyway.

464

I mean, you Right.

465

I mean, to me, like that's like how

often did you go look at court files

466

versus going and downloading the, I

mean, okay, now that I say that, so

467

there's still so many people that.

468

Paper file things, or there were

for a long time that the cases

469

wouldn't be complete online.

470

But assuming that we actually made

people file electronically across the

471

board like they do in so many states,

I just can't see needing to go in

472

and actually look at physical files.

473

All that stuff exists in the cloud

anyway, and those physical files

474

never have the record of what

happened at motion hour or hearings

475

because it doesn't have video in it.

476

It doesn't have, a transcript, so.

477

It's all sitting in the cloud

anyway, or, or on a local

478

server that's waiting to fail.

479

And so that's where I'm just like, if we

don't have courthouses, like drop outta

480

law school, like I'm just drop like, I

mean, I, I already left the practice of

481

law, but if we don't have courthouses,

like I don't know how, this isn't, to

482

me, the notion that judges could ever

conduct court anywhere other than the

483

courthouse is beyond my ability to.

484

Understand, agree with.

485

I'm not saying that judges, you know,

let's just do it where they can go

486

in a room in their house and do it.

487

That's a far cry from moving to zoom.

488

That's what I mean.

489

There was no one there.

490

Well, you know, that's,

that's a different argument.

491

Different argument.

492

I'm not arguing, leave courthouses

sitting empty and let judges just, you

493

know, go out on their veranda and, and

between dips in the pool, hear a case.

494

Now I have had judges who have.

495

During the pandemic when we were just

getting started and the scheduling was

496

all screwed up and we had some things

that needed to be handled the calendar

497

got messed up and it was a case that

had some component in California that

498

was coming up and it absolutely had

to be handled and I had to judge do

499

it from her kitchen and she didn't

know how to change the background.

500

So, in the background of that.

501

That hearing you have someone's kitchen.

502

But I will tell you, it

was a proper hearing.

503

It was reviewed, it went up on

appeal and all of this stuff.

504

And she did everything right and, and

it, and it worked out really well.

505

And that was something

that wasn't even planned.

506

So I think, I mean, how much cheaper

would a courtroom be if you had

507

small media rooms where people

could go in and do those things?

508

I'm not, I'm not advocating for that.

509

I'm simply saying that's a far cry from,

you know, oh, let me, let me hold on.

510

. Keep, keep talking.

511

I'm gonna go get in the pool.

512

I'm hot.

513

Like that kind of shit, you know?

514

Come on.

515

No, I, I hear what you're

saying, but I just think like.

516

To me, even the notion that courtrooms

wouldn't be open and operating.

517

And obviously we all did things during a

global pandemic that we shouldn't do now.

518

But I mean, I don't think there's any

question that family court systems aren't

519

working and there's a direct correlation

with moving towards remote and a lack

520

of just civility, a lack of efficiency.

521

If you don't go to work,

you don't get shit done.

522

Like I don't think that's rocket science.

523

And tax paid judges should be at

the courthouse conducting hearings.

524

I don't know how you hear family court

stuff and make decisions without being

525

able to judge a person's character.

526

I mean, there's a human

component, but you're, you're

527

talking about remote working.

528

We're not talking about remote working.

529

We're just talking about court

by video where the judges

530

would do it at the courthouse.

531

We're not talking about

everybody gets to stay home.

532

I didn't do any, I didn't

do hearings from the house.

533

Like that.

534

I didn't happen.

535

No, I, I mean, I went in, I was

prepared the exact same way.

536

I had my table set up the same way,

except for I had more room, had

537

additional computer stuff, I had

more information available to me.

538

I could actually, instead of having

to say, okay, I need someone to

539

race from the office and bring me

something, I could say, you know, you

540

know, I, I could have someone that

was on my team bring me something.

541

If there was something in a

paper file that I needed, they

542

could bring it right to me.

543

The access to that stuff.

544

It, it really, it either coincided with

me raising the level of my practice

545

or it had something to do with my

ability to practice in a different way.

546

Having access to the file in a way that

I couldn't sit in there, in a courtroom.

547

And I also think that it allowed

my clients if I'm sitting in the

548

room with them and we're both

on a camera, but they're sitting

549

just with me, I found that.

550

It went, you know, when I was preparing

the client for that hearing, we were

551

sitting in the same room we would be

in for that virtual hearing and they

552

were able to go through the testimony

without the same nerves of sitting there

553

under the light and all of that stuff.

554

And I, you know, to me it just made, it

made my job as a litigator a lot easier.

555

I felt.

556

Yeah.

557

I mean, I think those are all the

arguments for why I think it's

558

literally terrible is that you

should be str It's, it's a court

559

of law, like you're in a trial.

560

There should be some prestige

to the courthouse, to lawyers

561

wearing a suit, going to court,

to judges being in a black robe.

562

There is a level.

563

Of, you know, patterns or,

what's the word I'm looking for?

564

Like just prestige or ceremonial things

that should happen for a court of law.

565

You swear under oath?

566

Yeah.

567

I didn't, but for, but I had

known, I don't see that in person.

568

I don't never see that in person.

569

It's gotten so casual in person.

570

I never been listening like.

571

If I could go back in time to tell myself

if you want to be a lawyer because you

572

watch it on TV or you see and you wanna

go and help people and argue your case

573

in court, if we have Zoom court, it will.

574

We're gonna see an uptick in

attorney suicides like we've already

575

seen a ton since the pandemic.

576

But you will hate your life more

than you can possibly imagine.

577

If you are sitting in a box

to listening to Denise Brown.

578

Speak, just drop outta law school serious.

579

I mean, I'm being dead serious.

580

Like this to me is like, I would not

have made it, and you're gonna be

581

$200,000 in debt sitting in a cubicle.

582

Just, just, it's gonna be bad.

583

Just drop outta law school immediately.

584

I've never had anybody do or

do a hearing from a cubicle.

585

I.

586

I, I loved it.

587

Oh, I, I was so much

more efficient from it.

588

As an attorney, I absolutely loved

it, and I'm not one that like,

589

you know me, I'm not on my phone.

590

I don't live on a screen.

591

I do a lot of computer

type work, but I think.

592

More and more people are

comfortable with that.

593

And like it or not, it's just one aspect

of society that everything is moving

594

for to screen to screen interaction.

595

And it, it reflects reality a

little bit more than being in

596

person and having arguments.

597

But , I disagree about

people going into the law.

598

I, I absolutely love the

freedom to cruise into work.

599

You know, if I had a division one

motion hour and I wanted to take my kid

600

to school and all that stuff, I could

cruise in five minutes before walk in.

601

I had my setup already, turn it on, jump

right in where I'd had to, I had to have

602

to skip all of that and race down to the

courthouse and then worry about parking.

603

Get over there and wait, and you

never know if some, you know, , if

604

it's gonna start on time and then be

billing my client for all of that.

605

, On a normal day for a motion that

you may speak for what, five seconds,

606

10 seconds, and then you turn

around and drive all the way back.

607

I loved it.

608

It made my life easier.

609

We're saying as an attorney,

we're saying, we're saying

610

such different things, though.

611

No, you're saying, you're saying motion

hour don't, I'm saying a trial, like

612

they're very different things, but, oh,

I love, you just have to, to acknowledge

613

that you, you would never have had

any of your stories of litigation.

614

They don't exist anymore.

615

My stories of litigation are generally.

616

Not good.

617

I mean, the things that I remember,

things that were problematic, things

618

that failed, things that weren't great.

619

, If you're talking about like the old

tricks and the way you manipulate

620

people in cross-examination, you're

right, it's a different world.

621

Cross-examining someone is

totally different online, however,

622

it's a different bag of tricks.

623

Instead of just reaching for documents

and putting 'em in front of people,

624

you can still do the same thing.

625

And, and you can, you can make people

think, you know, a whole lot more

626

because they, they don't even, they

can't even look over at your table

627

and see what's stacked up there and

what you might have and don't have.

628

, I don't know.

629

Yeah.

630

I mean we just probably, this

is like the only time there's

631

not gonna be any pivot for me.

632

And it makes me like nervous.

633

Like, I'm just like, okay, now

everything needs to be remote.

634

'cause the thought of , these.

635

Attorneys that are left, like just being

able to zoom into court, like for all

636

the hearings or the thought of like a

family member or myself going through a

637

heated like hearing if it was me or like

my interest and just being, it's just

638

'cause I know what the judges are doing

and I know what the lawyers are doing.

639

I know what I'm doing.

640

I'm sitting here checking my messages

'cause I've got like 16 messages

641

and I gotta tell you something

huge when we got, we get off here.

642

Yeah, but I mean I, but I agree

you could do that in court.

643

We can, I mean, there's not a scenario

in which you will convince me and

644

I literally was like a mess when I

left Florida courts because there is,

645

again, I did not wanna be a lawyer.

646

We're, we're going to attract,

we already attract a certain kind

647

of person, but if you attract

people that can bill $500 an hour.

648

They, they will be, they'll hire

associates and they will have

649

cubicles and they will be, , they

will be zooming into court.

650

It's the future.

651

It's not the future, but the

seizure be reminder immediately

652

drop outta law school.

653

That's the present.

654

I, it is terrifying

that that's the problem.

655

I mean, I would still be a lawyer

if we, if everything was in person.

656

Probably.

657

I had some, some associates that I had.

658

Phenomenal thinkers, people that could go

through information and could argue if you

659

sat down with them in a trial, in a prep

meeting, like, we had a big appeal, or we

660

needed to make some strategic decisions.

661

And you sit down and you say,

here's what I think we should do.

662

Let's go around and, you know, tell me

if I'm right or wrong and why they're the

663

person that would argue with you and have

the compelling arguments and all of that.

664

But I'm thinking of.

665

Two people in particular that had crushing

anxiety and just hated litigating.

666

I mean, just miserable

and could be so effective.

667

And so when we were choosing whether

to hire somebody and how they could

668

be effective, it was just so, so clear

that it, it fit into the new system.

669

So I mean, it.

670

No, we're, we're agreeing, we're

saying the same facts, but I'm just

671

talking to young Christine Miller that

wanted to be a litigator, wanted to

672

go to court, drop out of law school

because zoom court is miserable.

673

But yes, you're gonna

get businessmen in there.

674

You're gonna get people with no

social, no social skills in ability

675

to pivot or think on their feet in a

box representing children's interests.

676

You still have to, you still have to

think on your what could go wrong?

677

Feet.

678

You still have to think on your feet.

679

It's still alive.

680

But when you talk about people skills,

what course did you practice in front of?

681

We are by and large, some of the most

unpleasant human beings on the planet.

682

Sometimes litigators that just when

you talk about people skills I'm also

683

gonna show my age if, I mean, not that,

that, it's a big surprise, anybody that

684

watches the video of this, but if you.

685

Went back and told me in law school

that you might be going into a

686

system where people are sitting on

video screens arguing this stuff.

687

My mind would've been

blown because mm-hmm.

688

The, the internet was, was just

you know, email and dial up shit

689

when I, when I was going in.

690

So I, I don't know that I can look

back and think what I would've

691

thought back then, because it's

just a totally different world.

692

But I think, all right.

693

Get up.

694

Yeah.

695

Oh, I mean, listen, if you've gone.

696

If you are coming out of law school

at this point, you're probably

697

used to having your classes online.

698

You're used to having bar

review and all of that stuff.

699

Not in person.

700

It is, it's gonna be a

logical transition, I think.

701

And I mean, and that's just one.

702

Don't get married, don't have kids.

703

Drop outta law school.

704

People in a box making

decisions about your kids.

705

End of times everyone be terrified.

706

I'm just kidding.

707

Actually, I'm not.

708

I agree with you the end of times.

709

Although , not the recent rapture

thing, but the end of times.

710

Yeah.

711

But the rest of it, no, , I

disagree on, on this point.

712

All right.

713

Tell us who you agree

with, Christine or Hugh.

714

Get all up in the comments, judge y.com.

715

Judging the judges judgy on

YouTube, Instagram and TikTok.

716

Make sure you're following our Instagram.

717

They are taking away our TikTok

and we will lose all of y'all.

718

Make sure to dm.

719

Let me know what questions you have.

720

I'm Kentucky Christine on all platforms,

and Hugh is nodding his head For some

721

reason I'm saying please side with me.

722

I've lost all the bets on here, and

if she wins again, she's gonna be

723

insufferable, so please already am.

724

Yep.

725

See you guys.

726

Song: Next call.

727

We need some justice, justice, justice.

728

And I wanna ring bells in public.

729

I wanna ring bes in public nor crowd.

730

Yeah, but I To the fo Yeah.

731

I To the fo Yeah.

732

I to the fo fo

733

teaser.