Great communication begins with connection, and we're going deep on this topic with special guest, Elizabeth Earnshaw. As a licensed marriage and family therapist and certified Gottman therapist, Elizabeth is here to equip us with the tools to supercharge our relationships. She breaks down the "four horsemen" and unveils the four crucial areas of communication that can transform any relationship, whether it's with our partner, friends, colleagues, or kiddos.

Elizabeth doesn't just talk the talk; she walks us through proactive communication strategies, especially during major life transitions. Ever heard someone say, "They're just not the same person I married"? Elizabeth dives into what that really means and how we can navigate these changes with grace and understanding. Plus, she shares gems from her books, "I Want This to Work" and "Till Stress Do Us Part," offering inclusive guides to tackling modern relationship challenges.

Mommas, it's time to thrive in every aspect of our lives! Tune in today to revolutionize how you approach your goals, motherhood, romance, and beyond as Elizabeth's insights will empower you to communicate effectively, nurture your relationships, and turn your dreams into reality.

What you'll hear in this episode:

[0:00] Communication and healthy relationships.

[3:30] Managing anxiety in parenting and relationships.

[15:05] Parenting teenagers and boundary setting.

[18:10] Parenting and mental health.

[25:05] Communication habits and strategies for better relationships.

[35:35] Identity loss in parenthood and self-care.

[42:15] Balancing personal values and realities of motherhood.

[49:00] Nurturing growth in committed relationships.

[53:45] Self-care for couples and moms.

CONNECT WITH ELIZABETH

Follow Elizabeth: @lizlistens

Purchase her book: https://elizabethearnshaw.com/work

To learn more about Elizabeth's services, check out her website: https://elizabethearnshaw.com/

CONNECT WITH KELSEY

Follow Kelsey: @thisiskelseysmith

Follow Momma Has Goals: @mommahasgoals

Download the app for Apple or Android

Learn more at https://mommahasgoals.com/

Join our text list. Text "Goals" to (707) 347-0319

Speaker 1 0:00

but my guess is that you're not actually concerned about them being delusional, you're just frustrated that you're not able to have a conversation with them. And so if you're really concerned, then they should be getting mental health care. But if it's more, I'm annoyed and I'm in a power struggle, then stop the power struggle, be curious and have limits, and you get to then reclaim your space as an adult, and you're not going back to being a teenager.

Kelsey Smith 0:25

Let's reimagine mom life together. Mama high schools is your hub for relatable support and helpful resources that help you fuel yourself alongside motherhood. Your identity is bigger than moms. And whatever your goals are. Together, we're making them a reality. Reports show 35 to 50% of first time marriages end in divorce. And we know that there are certain things that we can do to help support this not being the case for our reality, whether you're in a committed relationship, or partnership, or a marriage or not. The thing is that the skills that help us support our relationships leak out into every area of our life. So whether it's our friendships, our professional relationships are with our kids, having the right skills to become the best version of ourselves, and communicate what we need. What we're expecting. And what we want from others, is a skill set that is really needed and necessary for all of us. And our guests today walks us through communication habits that can support the relationships in our life. She talks about the Four Horsemen and the four areas of communication that are really needed in our relationships, we talk about premarital conversations, or just getting there before you need it. Life transitions how this shows a change of identity. Maybe you yourself or someone else has said they're just not the same person I married we unpack this and so much more when it comes to really allowing communication and positive relationships to lead your life through your goals through motherhood through your romantic relationships and so much more. Elizabeth Earnshaw is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist certified Gottman, therapist clinic fellow of the AAA M F T. And the author of I want this to work an inclusive guide to navigating the most difficult relationship issues we face in the modern age. She's also written till stress to us part how to heal the number one issue in our relationships, Elizabeth founded the therapy practice of better life therapy, and shares relationship health content on Instagram, as Liz listens, this is such a good conversation that I know you'll be able to bring into so many areas of your life. And I want this for you to be able to communicate what you want, need and desire. Listen, and hold those that you love. Grab those headphones. And let's dive in. Elizabeth, I'm super excited to chat with you today. Thanks for being here. I am constantly amazed by people that navigate life and motherhood on a solo basis. But even if we don't have a committed partner or committed relationship, the fact is, we're all connected to different people, right. And so I'm sure as a marriage and family therapist, you see this in so many different aspects, whether it's using the things you teach to in laws, or partners, or co parenting all of those things. So I'm super excited to unpack that today. And really, I want to just start there for someone that's maybe like, oh, I don't need to talk to a licensed family and marriage therapist, I think it's really important to unpack like all the different things that these conversations can support with and the different dynamics and households. And also I like to come to it from a point of offense instead of defense, I guess is the way to think about it. Like how do we get in front of things before they become a problem? For someone that's not used to therapy? Or working through something before? Then what would you tell that person before we dive into the deep stuff? Yeah,

Speaker 1 3:49

what would I tell them about maybe trying to get comfortable about reasons to go to therapy or how it will help them

Kelsey Smith 3:55

or to have like more in depth conversations with your partner to just want to work on things before they become a problem?

Speaker 1 4:01

It's really interesting that you asked this because I was just talking to someone else about the same exact question, which is, what is it that happens first, before people go to therapy? How can they start navigating the issues together, and I think that's something that's really challenging is that when there's issues in a relationship, we tend to start to feel anxiety. When people feel anxiety, they do one of two things, they either become really activated and so they become overbearing, essentially, which means that they want to talk about it all the time. And so they're constantly pressing their partner to talk about things and they might do it at the wrong moment, sending a text in the middle of a work meeting or saying, Hey, it's 10pm Why don't you want to talk to me? I know that we're tired, but we've got to talk right now.

Speaker 1 4:51

I'm the one sending the text to my husband who's like doing work in the basement. Can you come up and can we talk on the other thing that happens when we're anxious and upset about being disconnected or arguing is we withdraw. So that person is doing the opposite of what I just described, which is they're doing anything they can not to talk about it. They're taking on extra projects at work and staying later, they are ignoring text messages. They're giving brief responses. They're saying, Oh, my God, why do we have to talk about this? Again, one of the things that I tell people is when you want to start connecting again, and figuring out how to improve your relationship, like before therapy, that becomes the thing is, you've got to get a handle on your own stress and anxiety. Because if you don't do that, you're going to be creating patterns with the other person that are not helpful, and that are all about your anxiety, running the show, instead of you being from a grounded place, trying to communicate what's important. That's

Kelsey Smith 5:44

so good. The other thing is anxieties become I don't want to call it a buzzword. But in some ways, it's a good thing, right? We're talking about it, people are getting support. But I see in motherhood a lot that there is confusion around anxiety. Because we as moms are in charge of little humans, we have a lot of moving parts going on. And so we're going to naturally have some fears, some concerns, things that we have to figure out. Now, if someone's trying to figure out am I in a place of anxiety, and I need to work on these different things, or I'm just navigating life and it's coming with these different things? How do you kind of know, are there a couple of different red flags that we can think about? Or does it part of me wants to say it doesn't really matter? Because we want to do the work before? Before it comes in? What would you say from like the professional standpoint?

Speaker 1 6:34

Yeah, so when I talk about anxiety, we all have some form of anxiety, there's diagnosable disorder and anxiety, right. And that is like something that you might need to get treatment for, or medication for whatever it is. But when we are worried about something or concerned about something, we have a stress response, whether it's taking care of our little kids and feeling like, wow, I'm like, very overwhelmed by this, my body is feeling anxiety, I'm actually having those stress chemicals racing through me. And so I'm having to think a lot or I can't relax, or I'm struggling to sleep, or I feel shaky, I feel shut down any of those types of things. That's a stress response. That's anxiety. And so every day of our lives, I think, as parents, we're going to feel some of it. And that's just normal life. In fact, if you don't have stress and anxiety in your life, you actually wouldn't be a functioning human being you do need that the positive stress we have is actually called us stress. So it's spelled E U S ter ESS. And that's the stress that motivates us to get things done, right. So I'm worried that I am going to forget my kids doctor's appointment, that's actually a good thing, because then it makes me put it in my calendar, right? I'm concerned about whether or not my kids gonna hit their head when they're on a bike, I actually care if they hurt themselves. So that's a good thing, because it's gonna get me to put the helmet on them, I'm worried I'm going to get a divorce because my husband, I haven't talked in an entire week. And that's not a good thing. So now I'm going to be motivated to do something about it. So when you're still in that you stress stage where your stress and anxiety is motivating you to do effective things, that's a good thing you need it. Otherwise, you'd stay in bed all day, the problem is, is when it becomes such an activation that you begin to be run by a motor with your anxiety. Or it's the complete opposite, where it's almost like you've gassed out, and so you are completely withdrawn and those scenarios. So as a parent, what that might look like, is I'm so anxious that my kid's gonna get hurt. So I can't even let them ride their bike down the hill. I'm just saying my son's name is George. And so when I'm in a place like church, oh my God, and because I can't even allow him to take risks. It's impacting him, or I'm thinking back to postpartum. I'm so anxious, I'm not sleeping at night, because I'm just staring at this baby, making sure that they're okay. So this has moved from it being productive stress and anxiety to it taking over my life. And again, the opposite has been withdrawn. You're so anxious about what's happening, that you're just not engaged at all. And so you're saying, I don't even know how to talk to my partner about our problems. So I'm just not even going to bring it up. Or I don't even know how to mother. So I'm, like, whatever. I'm just not going to do it. I'm going to be super busy and clean the kitchen all day. And then what the end of the day, put them to bed and not engage, because I'm so anxious about what I'm doing as a parent. Does that make sense? Definitely.

Kelsey Smith 9:39

And I think really the point that I've heard also in specifically postpartum depression, anxiety and anxiety specifically, and what I'm hearing with what you're saying to is, you may have these feelings and that may be okay. But when it stops you from doing something that you do want to do or need to do like sleep or enjoying bike riding with you Your child are different things like that's when we want to look up and go, Hey, I'm not able to do these things. So I want to look at it different, but you might be scared, you might be like, Oh my gosh, I hope he doesn't crash on his bike. But if you're letting him the ride the bike and you're getting through to it. That's the normal fear right? Now, how does that show up with our partner putting that into different scenarios is I see a lot of posts and mom groups, I think relationship posts and mom groups are probably the top thing that I see coming through on Facebook groups and different things coming in. And a lot of times, it can be my partner's on his phone doing this, I'm nervous, my partner is doing this and I'm nervous, my partner's this and I'm scared. Where's kind of some healthy boundaries around privacy and conversation and prompting things? And having this fear inside of you, I know that there's probably so many layers to unpack in this, and it's super situational. But if you could give us a couple thoughts for someone that's maybe okay, but I have some of that fear and anxiety with my partner. What are some ways that you can know when it's something to work on? And something to just be like, Okay, this is life. Yeah. So

that it's hard? Because like you said, there's a lot of layers. And as a therapist, there'd be so many things I want to ask, right? If this was somebody coming in saying they have a history of affairs, and now I'm seeing them on their phone all the time, and I'm really anxious. My answer to that would probably be like, well, let's talk about what signals is your body actually sensing? That feels familiar, right? And what do you do with that. So last time, they had an affair, they started to pull away. And when he would come in the room, they put their phone down and your body is sensing all of this as a signal that something might be wrong. Now, let's say that this is somebody, their partner has never betrayed them, their partner has always been honest, there's no history of that. But yeah, they might have a history in their own life. Maybe they had a parent who was not honest. Or they had another partner who wasn't honest, something that would be really important, there is reality checking, yes, let's notice what your body is feeling. And also, what is the reality of your partner? Talk to me about Have there been other situations where they've lied? Do they tend to be honest? What do you know about them as a person? And can we put those things together where it's that you know that they're honest, there hasn't been any signals that they're lying, and at the same time, your body is feeling signals that you're used to from the past? So what do you do with those two things? Now, regardless, what we often do is that we don't address these things head on from a grounded place. So we start to feel nervous, and we spin out. And so instead of just going to the person and saying, Hey, I've noticed you've been on your phone a lot, I am feeling really concerned about that, you know, it makes me think that I'm nuts, or it makes me think that, you know, I'm looking into it too much. But I do feel anxious. And so I'm curious what is going on with your phone, being able to address it directly, what I see people often do is they're not addressing it directly. So they're either going to Facebook groups and telling a whole group strangers about their personal issues, or they are addressing it with passive aggression. So it might be something like up, you're on your phone again, what's on there, or what girl are you liking on Instagram today? Or do that it is so it's very passive aggressive, or they completely push it down. And they say nothing, because they convince themselves, this is stupid, I shouldn't say anything, I'll sound needy, I'll sound like I'm dramatic, whatever it is. But in a secure relationship, we can just address things head on, even if they sound crazy. Or even if you feel like you're looking into it too much, or you think your partner is gonna lie to you anyway, nobody in the Facebook mom group is going to be able to tell you what your partner is doing. In fact, the advice of those groups is often fairly terrible. I work with a lot of people who have had a lot of damage done to their relationships, because the problem with those groups is that you've got a whole bunch of people who are projecting their own experience onto you. And so they will come with very strong feelings. What might be your anxiety is ridiculous. You're just being dramatic, you're trying to control your partner, you need to get that under wraps, or the other side will obviously your partner is violating your boundaries, done it and they're an asshole, and you should divorce them. And these are very extreme responses based on their own projection. It can feel supportive, and in the moment, it can reduce your anxiety because you're getting feedback, but you need to be getting that feedback directly from your partner. Now the hardest part is that when they give you an answer, you have to decide what to do with that. And if you're still getting spidey senses, then that's really challenging you to decide what am I going to do with these am I going to say I don't believe you and I need proof and here are some things you could do to help me feel more comfortable, or are you going to say, Okay, that sounds like a pretty good answer and continue to monitor The situation in either direction, nobody's going to be able to soothe your anxiety except for you. And that is really challenging to navigate.

Yeah. Gosh, that's so good. And the last thing you said of what do you want to do with it? And do you want to monitor the situation? It reminded me that in so many situations, the person that were feeling these feelings from or towards, they might not be aware at all, how you're feeling, or how they're coming across, they literally might just have been on a tick tock binge for the last week of a certain person, and then you're thinking these certain things about it, right. But if you don't communicate, and then they're not like, oh, wow, you know, I have been on my phone a lot lately, or I'm doing these certain things, then they're not aware. And again, there's other layers and situations for maybe you might have a different dynamic going on. But if you don't, which I actually think that the majority of the time, we have like good situations going on. And then to your point where the majority is there's not horrible things happening behind the scenes. But Facebook groups can make us feel otherwise AI. And I have definitely seen those posts to where someone's sharing something, and all of a sudden everyone's baggage is being put on you. And it's okay to get that initial support in some ways. But then also, we don't have that real support to move forward. Now, on the theme of Facebook groups, I want to give you a very specific example in a local group that I'm a part of that came up yesterday. And I want the Marriage and Family Therapists response to this, because there were so many different comments. And I was like, what would a professional in this scenario, and so in this scenario, specifically, mom felt that her teen daughter was victimizing her that she was coming up with these things that were happening that weren't real. And she was like, Mom, you're yelling at me, stop yelling at me, Mom, you treat this kid differently. When you're around these people, you're doing this, and you're acting a certain way. And so this teen daughter from the post, again, I'm just taking the context of the posts, but from the posts, she felt that her teen daughter was making these stories up and she's like, that's just not what's happening. That's not what's happening. What do I do? My daughter's just victimizing me and making things up and lying. Now the comments that were provided ranged from Teen daughters are horrible. Yes, welcome to this, that's all of these things. Your daughter's gaslighting you you need to put a stop to this record and video, her all of these things, escalate all the situations. And I will tell you, I had like pretty difficult teen years. And I just reading that was like, I feel like I was this daughter in many ways. And my opinion of total unprofessional opinion. Reading this was like I bet she has no idea she's doing this. But this is about something else that she's feeling. And I want this mom to figure out why is my daughter responding this way? Why am I feeling this way? Like, why is she doing this? So I'm curious, what would the professional guide this mom to do in this situation with

you? To me, this situation is screaming a mom who has no boundaries. If she was the mom was listening right now I would gently say to her, please remove the post your name is associated with that. And your daughter did not give you permission to share on a public platform, what she's struggling with as a hormonal teenager. And now what you've done is you've gotten a whole bunch of people to gang up on your child. And I would ask this mother to step back and think Is any of this dynamic, what's happening in the home, where you are not seeing your child, you are seeing your own anxiety and your own frustration and you are making that the forefront and you're a human being you are of course allowed to have feelings and concerns and frustrations they should be talked about in private to respect your child's privacy. And my guess is is that some of these behaviors are actually in the home to where there's a lot of self focus. You're not being fair to me, you're lying about me you're not doing it. And what's happening is then you're blurring what is needed for relational work. relationships require your ability to see the other person and to also see yourself. And with this whole scenario, you blasting your daughter online, you're only seeing yourself, you're not seeing her, you're not seeing what's happening for her, your daughter in the teen years. What we know about brain science is that teenagers become what's called myopic, they have very black and white thinking. And they feel as if other people do not understand that. And this is consistent across all teenagers. Now when we're adults, we have what's called nuanced thinking. And so the feedback you're getting is coming from a nuanced brain when you're getting it from other people where it's like, oh, but we know that you weren't yelling because yelling is this many decibels and blah, but your child is in a black and white myopic state and they actually don't have the capacity you have to be relational. So all they can see is themselves now as an adult, your job is to be able to see both So, with your child, I'm curious, if you've been able to say to yourself, you know what, I'm really overwhelmed by this, I'm going to deal with this with a close friend who will keep my daughter's information private, or a therapist or my partner, whoever it is, I will deal with my feelings with another adult. But I'm gonna go to my daughter, and I'm going to say, Hey, I'm really confused. I love you so much. And when we talk, I've noticed that you often hear me differently than the way I think I sound. What are you noticing, by being curious with your child, I think sometimes adults think, Well, I'm just going to be validating it, you're not validating it, you're letting your child explain to you. And if your child is just coming up with those as emotional responses, because I can tell you, you might be right, you might not be screaming at your child, they might be having a very emotional response to you. And so what they're going to say is something just to tick you off, stop yelling at me, we've all been there and the other person's like, him not yelling at you, right? But maybe at that point, when you say, hey, look, I really don't think I'm yelling. What is it that you don't like? Well, your voice isn't phrased. But the way you talk to me, it insinuates that you're looking down on me. I don't want to look down on you. I'm just trying to tell you what my concerns are. Give me an example. When did I look down on you really try to be curious. After curiosity, boundaries, you are the adult, you can have boundaries with your child, and you don't need to get so flustered about what they're accusing you of. You're yelling at me, instead of saying, I'm not yelling at you. How dare you, gaslight me, which by the way, gaslighting is way overused right now, instead of saying that, say to your child, whoa, I was not yelling. I love you. I'm not going to have this conversation with you, though. If you are going to keep saying these things. When you are in a place where we can talk, I'll come back and talk to you. Right? So if curiosity doesn't work and the child, I'm going to tell people that you do not have to call the police on you, whatever. They say, Whoa, that is too far. I have limits, I love you, I'm going to leave the room. But again, you're staying calm. You're not getting flustered by your child, you're an adult, you know how to hold on to yourself. If those two things don't work, and you genuinely think that your child is making things up, that are not true. Are you concerned about their mental health? Because if you're saying I really think that they're insane, and they're having delusions, and none of this is true in the curiosity and the boundaries don't work, then my third question is, why are you not getting them treatment, but my guess is that you're not actually concerned about them being delusional, you're just frustrated that you're not able to have a conversation with them. And so if you're really concerned, then they should be getting mental health care. But if it's more, I'm annoyed, and I'm in a power struggle, then stop the power struggle, be curious and have limits, and you get to then reclaim your space as an adult, and you're not going back to being a teenager with them.

Who that is so good, so many good things. Now I can feel some triggered bombs, like on the other side of this, right. And this is what happens when we take responsibility. And we put ourselves in uncomfortable situations. So of course, doing the work, going to therapy, working through your own past and the things that you have to do. That's all really important. But talk a little bit to from a psychological professional level, why that's so important. Like why you need to work through your own stuff first, so that you can listen to someone tell you how to parent better and make a better family dynamic without throwing up walls or reasons that wouldn't work for you. Yeah,

so we all as human beings, we only know how to be based off of what's been modeled to us. And a lot of these things, they're not even verbally modeled to us. We're just used to it. So if I was working with this mom, I would certainly be so empathetic. And by the way, let me throw myself under a bus like my kid was being disrupted the other day. And I literally said shut up to a six year old. And so I need to figure out what is going on what was triggered in me what is going on. But if I wasn't self aware, I would be blaming the six year old, right? I would be saying this is because you're so out of control. And I wouldn't have to say shut up to you if you didn't did that. But luckily, because I take time to figure out where's this coming from? I could step back and apologize to my kid. And I could say, Okay, what is that all about? And where does that come from? And so when we're really reflecting on ourselves, it doesn't just open up the door for a better relationship with another person. It helps us to empathy for ourselves. Because instead of getting really mad at myself for the Shut up comment, I was like, oh, you know what? My life growing up was so strict. I wasn't able to really be loud and playful. Nobody said shut up to me for sure, but that's because I didn't make it Any noise. And so when my kid is being really disruptive, and I'm stressed out, it feels overstimulating to me because I was never allowed to do that. And so because I have that awareness, I can fix it. But I can also be kind to myself. And I think that when people are working on themselves, yes, it's for maybe other people. But it's also so that you don't have to shame spiral so that somebody can give you feedback and say, what's going on? Like, where did that come from for you? And you, as a parent can say, oh, you know what, when I was a teenage girl, nobody would listen to me. And so I feel like now I've got this it's called destructive entitlement. We gain destructive entitlement when something didn't happen for us, we think that other people are entitled to watch other people go through the same thing. And so we can have empathy and say, Now I understand, I want my daughter to stop it, because nobody, let me do it. And so I don't feel comfortable letting anybody else do it. And what was that like for me, and so it allows you to feel better inside, and it allows you to feel more grounded inside, and then ultimately, will help those relationships with your family members. But the best part of it, the most important part of it for you, is that it helps you. Yeah,

and a big part of what I'm hearing too is this can help release mom guilt, right? Because in a situation like that, and that's what you're saying, but putting like more of that buzzword on it, is you could do something quote unquote, wrong, something that you're not proud of, and then sit in all this guilt and be like, Oh, my gosh, how did I do that? Where when you have this skill set and this awareness, you don't have to go down that spiral? either. You can pause and say, Okay, where did that come from? Exactly like you're saying, and how am I going to navigate this? Okay, I absolutely love that you have a couple of different themes or ways that the research backs how you explain different things in different areas of our life, and one of which is the Four Horsemen and the four communication habits. Now talk to me about these communication habits? And does this specifically apply to our partners, or also the same thing we're talking about with our kids and ourselves and how we communicate to all these different people we're connected to? Yeah.

So since the 70s, Dr. John Gottman has been doing a lot of research on couples, and, you know, so far is putting them in apartments and kind of analyzing their every move with each other. So 1000s of couples. And what he found is that there are two categories of couples, there are what he calls the masters of relationships. So when he calls the disasters of relationships, and the disasters can become masters. So that's the good news. But what he found is that the people who are who report that they're unfulfilled, that they are unhappy in their relationships that they're fighting, they're breaking up, that there are four things that they communication habits that they use in conflict, that do not help them. And he dubbed them the four horsemen, because like the four horsemen in the Bible, they signal the end of times, so we don't want them to be showing up in our relationship chronically. Something that I think is really important, though, is to remember that we all do these things. So as I'm listing them, right now, the caveat I want to give you is if you've done them, your normal, it's okay. But that you don't want them to be your chronic way of being. And if you do them, it's really important that you own it, and then take accountability for that and shift it. And so those are the things that need to happen. That's it in order to salvage your communication. So the first of the Four Horsemen is criticism, criticism is when we have a problem, but we connect it with a character flaw on our partner. So I'm trying to think of one that we have in my house, we like never pick up after ourselves in my house. It's just like, constant picking up after each other all the time. And so the problem every day, just stuff everywhere. And if I was to be critical of my husband, or my son, I would say something like, you're always so lazy, or you never pick up after yourself, or you always step over things or you never want to help any of those, always and never is a pretty good sign. You're being critical if instead, I was going to do what he calls the antidote. If I was going to just talk for myself and what I need, then what I would talk about is the actual problem, hey, we have stuff scattered all over this house, you can still be mad, but you don't have to be this like Zen Lama all the time. We have stuff all over the house. It is a mess. I feel exasperated, exhausted and overwhelmed and pissed off by all the stuff in the house. I really need us to come up with a plan for fixing it. So you can still have frustration or energy behind what you're saying. But to avoid the criticism that caused a relationship to deconstruct, you have to talk about what you're noticing what you feel and then be very clear about what you need. I mean Eat everyone in this house to start picking up after themselves. That is just what I need. What is the plan? Do we have to do it every day at noon, we go around and we just pick things up quickly. So that's criticism. The second is defensiveness. Defensiveness is when we don't take responsibility for our part. Going back to that, Mom, I think she was coming from a really defensive place, right? This is all my child. They're a looney tune. And I don't know what's going on with them. And so with our partners and our kids, we can become really defensive if somebody brings up that they're struggling with something. And mom guilt really can elicit defensiveness, right? You feel like, Oh, you're telling me I've been a bad mom. So I want to defend myself. Because as parents, we work so hard. Yeah, this mom, and that Facebook group probably works so hard. Every day, you're trying to make good choices, you are spending money, you are working, you are giving energy, you are not sleeping until 3am. And then you have this little brat come to you and say, You always yell at me or you never buy me the things the other kids have, or our house isn't as nice as the other people's houses or whatever it is. It's so easy to be like, Are you kidding me? Do you know how much I do for you? How am I supposed to your friend's mom makes dinner because your friend's mom doesn't work. But I don't get home until 7pm. And that's why I can't make you dinner. Whatever it is. So defensiveness is when we explain ourselves, or justify what the other person's complaint has been. In a relationship, it would look like if I went to my husband and said, There's stuff everywhere we need to pick it up. And he said, When do you think I have time to pick it up? When we get into that, we're just gonna go back and forth. So the antidote, the thing that you want to if you catch yourself being defensive, instead, it's just taking responsibility for your part. And if you truly have no part, it's validating anything that makes sense. It's not validating things that don't make sense. I'm using this example again. But the mom in that group does not have to say to her daughter, it makes sense that you think I'm yelling. It doesn't just have to say that if she really doesn't think she was yelling, do you not validate that? But what makes sense? Maybe your daughter is saying, you just don't understand me? Well, you don't. Right. You're asking for advice on a group? Because you don't understand her. If I was in your position, honey, I would probably feel the same. It makes sense. You think I don't understand you? Because right now I don't think I do. Right now. We're not on the same page. So anything that you can grasp onto that makes sense. With my husband? We don't ever pick anything up around here. I'm so exhausted, I need help. Defensiveness would be I'm too busy. Just validating would be, I can see it. There is stuff everywhere. You're right. That's it. He's not saying he's a fault. None of that. If you are responsible for something, just own it. You're right. I leave my crap everywhere all day, we do need to figure out a solution. Or if you're that, Mom, you're right. I get mad, and I do yell sometimes. I don't know what to do about it. I'm really frustrated. But you're right, I yelled. So that's all I used to do put a period on it. The next two are stonewalling and contempt. So these are escalated versions of the others. So stonewalling is a very defensive position where you're just not responding anymore. And this happens because people get so flooded, that we talked about it earlier, they completely withdraw. It's like they can't figure out what to say or how to say it. So they just shut down. And then the other is contempt, which is the very activated version of criticism. And it's not just attacking the character. It's doing it from a one up position. So I'm no longer saying You guys never helped me. I'm saying You're pathetic. My family is pathetic. If you weren't so lazy and just sitting on your video game all day, you would look around this house and you would see that there's a problem. When we have contempt we start to sneer or sarcastic we roll our eyes. And the antidote to those two things is number one self soothing. So being able to notice I'm out of control in my body right now. That's why I'm shut down. And that's why I'm saying these really mean things. I need to take a break and calm down. And the other antidote to contempt is really talking about your feelings instead. Unfortunately, moms can get contemptuous and it can be painted in an unfair light as like the mean nagging mom. The reason that some people show contempt, though, and there's a lot of reasons but some people show contempt, because they have a history of their needs not being met, and they're just so over it and so tired of it, and they feel like the only thing that maybe will get somebody's attention Tension is if they want up the intensity of what they're saying. And so we have a lot of compassion for that. But what's going to happen with your contempt is it's going to degrade the relationships. So your kids are going to say, I don't want to be near you anymore. And your partner is going to say, Whoa, where did that come from? That's way too cutting. So in said, talking about the feeling, I am exhausted, I am so tired of this. I am really sad, anxious, I'm overwhelmed. Why do not have you see that is very different than you all are pathetic, or you are jealous. So that's a long winded explanation of the Four Horsemen. Oh,

my gosh, I think it's so helpful. And I can see myself family members, friends, people in our community in so many different of these areas, where we do just do it naturally. It's a way of life. And so being aware and making a big theme of what I'm hearing for everything you're saying is making it about you rather than making it about someone else. And doing that in a healthy way. I really liked how you brought up the specifics of you don't have to say, you're right, I'm not cleaning up or all these things, you can say I see that. And it doesn't mean that you have to solve every problem or put yourself down in the response. But it's acknowledging, yes, that's how that other person feels. And I can see that this is what makes sense. And working through that. Now, I do think that you have to know what you want to be able to communicate what you want. And to be able to have a good family, a good relationship, a good self identity and worth. And I noticed that often we go through all the motions of life, whether it's going to high school and college or jumping into your career path, stepping into motherhood, and you're checking box after box. And that's a little bit of my story to till I woke up one day. And so for someone that hasn't had that moment to really sit back and reflect and say, what type of relationship do I want? What type of family do I want? Do I care if my family picks up after themselves? What do I want my house to feel? Like? What are some of the first steps that you see from a professional standpoint, to get aware with what you even want?

Oh, it is so hard. I empathize so deeply with the parents. So most of the couples, I work with our parents and their parents in this phase, where it's like, now we've been parenting for five years, or four years or whatever. And who am I? And? Or is there anything left of me between parenting and school, with the kids and work and I just going through the motions. And one of the things that I think helps is number one, just to within your relationship, have regular check ins about that, like, how are you feeling about who you are like and how much time you're getting? Like, how are you feeling about where your energy is being placed? All of those types of things actually ask each other these questions because it often takes conversation to even notice these things. I think that when we're insular, we're just going through the motions. But if my husband came to me and said, How are you feeling about the way like your time is used and your identity right now and who you are, that gives me this opportunity to actually talk about it. Now if you don't have somebody to ask you that journal about it, what is going on in my life? And how am I feeling about it? The second part that can be really challenging, is figuring out what the heck to do about it. So you might identify, oh, my gosh, and no time for me, I was telling you, before we got on that I have a six month old baby. And so as you're well aware, because you have kids, too. That's usually the period where there just really isn't any time for you. Especially if you've got other kids running one to school, I get home from the drop off and taking care of the kid, I'm doing work and then the baby and then the baby all night and dinner and just goes on and on. What do I even do about it. And when you're thinking about what to do about it, I like to think about multiple options that you have. One is that you just honor that it exists right now. And then it's a phase and you don't put a ton of pressure on yourself. I think sometimes the world and what we see can make us put pressure. Why is my friend Brittany just had a baby and she's already going to the gym every day. Like I see these pictures, and I haven't found time for that. I don't know where it's coming from. But instead of that comparison, one of your choices is to say this is just my life right now. Like I don't have time for anything else. And it's hard and I can grieve that and I can sit with it. But I can be really kind to myself and say there's nothing I can change right now I'm just going to sit with this. Maybe that's your choice. The other is to say I can't sit with us this is not okay for me. I want to be like Brittany and go to the gym every day or three days a week or whatever it is. And so something needs to change and so you have to identify then something needs to change. The third option that you have is to say I am going to start sacrificing and quitting things in order for something to change. And so this is like a much more abrasive response. And I'll give you a little example of what that looks like in real life for me, during the pandemic, my husband and I asked each other this question like, how are you feeling about the way life looks right now, and my husband was in a very corporate job. It was like until 7pm, every day stuck in the basement because nobody could go to the office anymore. And we had a little child, he never saw him. But he heard us upstairs dealing with things. And I was miserable, because I'm working and dealing with kids. So if we went through these three options, option one would have been just to say, this is our lot in life, we have to stick with this right now. There's no other options. How can we manage stress? How can we connect with each other? How can we figure this out? Option two might have been something like a little less abrasive, but some changed, why don't you start putting the boundary and that usually work at five, or maybe at least one day a week, we'll do family dinner. So we're all sitting together. And that'll be helpful. Maybe we get a nanny. So the nanny can help us while we're both working. And that was the option we first tried. And we're not happy, we don't have time for ourselves or identity, who we are. So we got a nanny. We're going to work these same jobs, but at least we'll have some help. Well, guess what, that didn't make us have any more time. Because if anybody works from home, we heard everything the entire time downstairs, constantly had the knock, I'm sorry, I can't find the peanut butter, can you help me or whatever it is, we eventually said, No, we have to do something abrasive to change. Because we're really unhappy. We have my husband's a musician, he had no space for his identity. And I really enjoy my work. And I was having to like cancel appointments and all sorts of stuff. So he quit his job. So that was a very abrasive thing that we had to do. In fact, we had to sacrifice money make way less money doing that, obviously, we had to make big changes to who is what and where. And my husband's identity while he's gotten to do more music, because identity as like a provider has changed, which we've had to grapple with. Anyway, yeah, you have these three choices, when you notice that you're not happy with the way life is going for you.

I love that. And that's such a good tangible example, like in your job specifically, and how that works in the house, when you're talking about the first two examples, specifically, and it's looking at what you want in life, and what your current life is, and accepting the reality of the season. I had this thought of just like, my gut is to be like, but here's all the positives, right? Like, you can't go to the gym right now. But you're getting these baby cuddles. And you're getting this, you're doing that. And I know how unhelpful that can be to certain people in certain seasons. And so I would love to get like a professional take on that to say, Okay, what is the balance between honoring, we're just going to go with status quo right now, even if it doesn't feel good, and saying, Okay, I want to make a change. And then I feel like the third option in my response, but I get what you're saying is different for what the action you take is, but I should be grateful. I want to have this gratitude. I need to find the beauty in here. How would you balance that finding the beauty, that positivity, looking towards that with also honoring like, when things don't feel good? That's

such a good question. And first of all, I think like your go to response isn't completely problematic, right? Right now it could be like cod, toxic positivity or something like that. But I think if we were to go deeper with where that first response came from, it's connected to some values that you have. And so I think what you're trying to bring up in that moment is like, using my silly example, as my friend you would maybe be trying to point out to me, but Liz, maybe you value something different

people do step into motherhood and have different priorities and one could be going to the gym, I have a friend that I like fits that perfect identity. She's like, I'm going to do this version of motherhood so I can go to the gym everyday at this time. That is not a value or priority of mine so maybe it should be on a health level but it's not so I think that's a great point. Right? You

were relating with maybe my values you were saying your lives right now you're valuing baby cuddles and you're valuing maybe quiet time on the couch and maybe you're valuing nap like you personally taking a nap like maybe that's what you're valuing right now. And so that go to be like, but you've got the cuddles and the naps and so the same with the other mom, she might be having a conversation that mirrors this saying, I don't know if I spend enough time with my kid. What's wrong with me? I'm going to the gym. Am I selfish? So if you're having these kind of like identity crises of who am I supposed to be? What am I supposed to look like? And what's motherhood supposed to be for me? The first thing I think that Kelsey was getting at is well, some of this because you are aligning actually with values even though it's not ideal. So while you might really miss going out to do dinner with your friends all the time. Maybe the reason you're not making time for that right now is because actually what you're valuing is quiet time cuddles making dinners instead. And while the day to day it feels like a grind, and it doesn't feel like it fits in with your ideal for life, sometimes when you sit back, you actually find the reason you're in the predicament is because you do truly value it. And that just because we value something doesn't mean it feels great all the time. So that's the first piece, look at what you value here. And you kind of have some gratitude for that it does kind of suck being stuck inside all day. But I do actually really value this, I always wanted to be this way as a mother. And so I'm grateful that I get this opportunity to do it. Maybe that's what that looks like for the parts where you have no choice. So let's say that you're a parent who doesn't particularly value all the baby cuddles and you want the gym. But maybe financially right now. You can't or maybe you don't have enough help because you're a single parent, and you just literally cannot do it. I think that's when the positivity can feel really crappy, where you might have somebody saying to you, but you have this beautiful kid who cares if you can go to the gym, and you're thinking in the back of your head, but I have no choice. If I was choosing not to go, then fine. But I have no help. I have no money, I have no choice to do this. And that I think is the part where it's okay for you as a person to sit with. I'm grieving right now who I don't get to be. And I'm allowed to grieve that I'm allowed to feel like this is a loss for me, and feel sad about it and frustrated about it, whatever it is, and maybe I don't have to do anything. Or maybe I can't do anything about it. Other than every once in a while when it hits me say who? Yeah, I'm grieving that version of myself that used to go. I'm using the gym example to the gym every day, where I'm grieving that part of myself that always thought I was going to be a stay at home mom, but now I'm working 60 hours a week. And there's not a lot I can do right now because I need that paycheck, but I am grieving it. And actually just like putting your hand on your heart, and letting yourself feel sad about that and letting yourself recognize it's not a personal failing. There's just nothing you can do about it right now.

Yeah, I feel like the right thing to do that friend, the first offer is, can I help you? Can I watch your kids? So you can go to the gym? And you can go do these things? But then secondary would be Yeah, for lack of a better word. That sucks. And I'm sorry, I'm sorry, you don't have that right? Is there anything else that as the supportive person would be helpful in most of those situations, and using that as an example,

I think other than offering the support, if you can offer support, and that might look different and might be like, I can't watch the kids because I live 80 miles away, but my support is I listened to you. But I think that just being curious with people can be such a big cure for people's distress. And so sometimes as the friend, we shy away actually, from Curiosity, it's really interesting, we jump right into, oh my gosh, it's gonna be okay. I promise. And after six months, it gets easier, you're gonna go back to yourself. It's so easy to jump into that it's also so easy to jump into just Yeah, I don't know. That's what happens when you have a baby. You just don't get to go. It's just how it is sucks. But sometimes actually asking for their perspective on the problem and letting them talk about it can be huge. So just You're telling me you haven't been you're upset? Because you're not getting time yourself? What do you wish time to yourself looked like? Or oh my gosh, I've always been curious. Who have you always wanted to be as a mom, really asking those questions you would ask when you were 13. at a sleepover party, we used to ask lots of questions to Yeah. Who do you want to date? Why when you grow up? What do you think you're gonna be like? And I think when we become moms or adults, even, we don't really ask great questions anymore, but people like to still talk about it. So being curious.

So good. Now let's apply that into our partner relationships and our marriages or committed relationships. Now, I hear this phrase a lot. Well, that person's not the same person. I'm married. And my husband and I joke about this, honestly, because when we started dating, I was really young. I was 19. I was working three jobs in college like, I am definitely not the same person. But we started dating, and in so many good ways. And I think that we are supposed to evolve and grow. So as we close out our conversation, I want to talk a little bit about the women that listen to this podcast. So women in our community, they're aspiring to be a higher level version of themselves in one way or the other. Some days that's taking a shower today, some days that's going after your dream career business or that like really cool Pinterest snack that you saw, or whatever it is that you're looking to achieve. But when we're doing that we're changing who we are. We're finding a higher level version of ours. out and evolving. So in committed relationships and partnerships, how do we nurture this desire to evolve and become a new version of ourselves, but also understand that person has to grow with us? Or accept this growing version of us? What it? What is the dynamic to make that work when you know, you want to change and you want to evolve?

Yeah, well, I think one of the most important mindsets when people get into relationships is going into it with a growth mindset. The purpose of partnership is to support each other in navigating life and navigating challenges and growing into more mature adults. Whether you get married when you're 19, or you're 50, or whatever it is, really, you're entering into something, saying, when the hot passionate honeymoon phase is over, my role here with you, is to help you meet the goals that you have in life, and to live a life that feels fulfilling and valuable to you. And your role is to help me do that. And some of that is in the daily nitty gritty of we're going to help each other navigate these kids, or we're going to help each other pay these bills. And some of that is in a much more awe inspiring way where if I have these hopes and dreams that I'm going to have a partnership that like is very healing for me, or I have a partnership, where we have a lot of fun, and we meet goals, and we change the world together, or whatever it is. But either way, that's the whole point. And so when you notice your partner growing, something you should be proud of yourself for is that somehow the relationship and the family life is actually allowing that person to grow. Now, does it change? If you're growing? Are you just leaving people behind in the dust, that's something really important to pay attention to, because you can grow, you can be meeting your goals, and all of those types of things. But you also have to be able to still stay relational. Remember, I talked earlier, being in a relationship means I see me I see you. And so when I get off opportunities with my career, I'm still checking in with my husband, hey, if all these things I have to do in these upcoming months, but like, how's that affecting you? And I have space to hear that, instead of immediately getting defensive and being like You're blocking my growth? Why don't you want me to do that? I'm able to be like, yeah, I get it. When we got married. I'm making this up, because this isn't really true. But I could see somebody being like, when we got married, you weren't flying away all the time. And I thought you were gonna be here. And I be like, yeah, I get I get that. Like, when we got married, I wasn't traveling a lot for work. And that's not what you signed up for? Is there anything we can do together so that you feel comfortable with this? Because I might be blocking his growth? Right? What do you need so that you feel like you're being propped up and supported? And you're getting to grow? And how do we do that together? Now, sometimes growth can bring out a lot of uncomfortable feelings for the other person, and they might try to shut you down and say, Oh, that's stupid. Why do you want to open that business, I don't even know why you'd want to do that you weren't a business person when we met. And you need to also be able to have limits with even your partner, that's not cool. You're not allowed to shut down my ideas that's really hurtful. The hope is, is that as you grow, you're feeling proud of each other. And you're feeling proud that you can offer support to someone as they grow. Now, sometimes people do grow apart. And they might say I didn't sign up to marry someone who's away every single week for work, is that going to change? And the other person might say, No, I am going to be away from work. And I don't know if we're going to be able to work this out. Sometimes that means you have to think about what you're going to do about that. But growth is an amazing aspect of being in a relationship that you get to watch someone through a lot of iterations of themselves.

I love that. Okay, before asked my last final two questions, where can everyone Connect, you find all of your greatness, I love your social media, you put so much good tangible tactics and advice on there. So I highly recommend everyone follows you there. But where would you like to send everyone.

So the easiest place to find me is on my website, which is just my name. So Elizabeth earnshaw.com. And that links you to my book and my social media and all those types of things. But you could also go to my Instagram account, which is Atlas listens and connect with me there as well.

Amazing. And on that last topic and talking about your book we're talking about we want this to work, we want people to grow. And that's the title of your book. And I think we all get into a relationship a committed partnership with the goal of support and with the goal of wanting to work. And so I would love for you to talk a little bit about what is unpacked in your book and who the right person is that it's for AI and I think that it is so important. Coming back to the our very first question of we want to do these things before there's even a problem right? So having these skills and having these things to make it work before there's a problem is really important. And I know you talk a little bit about pre marital advice and premarital support, but for those You're already there, you want to start now you don't need to, you don't need to say, well, we missed that boat. So we're just not going to do that. So I'd love for you to talk a little bit about the book and a little bit about like taking action now, regardless of what season you're in. Yeah, so

the book is called, I want this to work. And obviously, ideally, we'd work on things before they got bad. But reality tells us no, we work on things once we start to feel certain pain point. So my advice is work on it. As soon as you start to feel the pain point, don't wait six years. But the book, I wrote it, because I had been recommending so many different books to couples. And each book would have a little piece of the different things that we need. So people would have to read like whole book on Attachment styles, or a whole book on communication, or a whole book on emotional regulation. And they weren't getting it all in one concise spot. And so the book really highlights all of the different types of things that couples might go through. And how can you navigate those with some tangible skills? So you're arguing? And you're using all those four horsemen? What are some things you can actually do to replace the Four Horsemen and improve your communication, you are operating from a place of shame, and so you're self sacrificing yourself? And because of that, you're not getting what you need in a relationship. So what are some things you can actually do to start setting boundaries and advocating for yourself and showing up as you again, you get two huge blowout arguments. That's great. You shouldn't you shouldn't say horrible things to each other. But in reality you do. So in the book, we talk about what do you actually do? How do you soothe yourself, and come back from those conversations so that you can repair things instead of having them get worse? So the entire book is really a handbook for how do you navigate life with your partner?

Absolutely love it. And we can get that anywhere that we buy books, including Amazon, everything else. So we'll link that below. What is something that you're really excited about in this season, a goal that you're working towards you six months postpartum, with your second little baby, you have so many things that are flowing and going on? What is something that's lighting you up and really getting you in your goals right now? Yeah, so

one of the when I talked about those three choices earlier, my husband and I have been making very abrasive choices. This season, we went through a season of doing it all and taking it all on and following the path that people are supposed to follow. And it was very stressful. And so something I have been doing over the past several months is like way less, and getting comfortable being okay with that. It's kind of funny, it's going a little opposite to that. But I'm, I just finished my next book, which is called total stress to us part. And the entire book is about how stressed out we all are and how it's causing a lot of people to be unhappy in their relationships. And I needed to take my own advice that was on all of us to reduce our own stress. And so I've had to say goodbye to a lot of things. I don't really use my social media that much anymore. I am not everything to everybody. There's a lot of things I'm invited to do. And I say no, because I want to sit on the couch and cuddle my baby I want to sleep in sometimes I want to have nothing to do on a weekend. And right now what that means is that my career is probably going to take a little bit of a break. And it feels really good. And so I'm really excited for that this year. And next year, I'll probably be all over the place again. But that's the season. Yeah.

And I think it's so important to understand like what that means for you, right? Because your career taking a break is different than someone else's career taking a break, right? Because you've built this foundation that's going to continue to flow without you doing anything, right. And that's what I mean, your social media has so much already there for people to get into even if you're not as active now. And what is less active for you is still active, compared to different things, right? I

still own a business, the employees and all sorts of things. Yeah.

And so I but I think that's really important for moms to see and understand. And I love that you're using yourself as an example is like, you get to decide what that means for you. And so taking a break to you means this and taking a break to someone else being something else. And I love that. So I'm excited for you to take your version of your break posting to get that all done. And when can we expect that book to be released

this fall actually so it'll be ready. I think by November it's done. They just have to do all the editing all of that and it'll be out so I'm really excited for it to be out in the world.

That's awesome. Okay, as we wrap up here, I love to we have had such good conversation, so many things. But we also know the mental overload of motherhood. I don't want anyone to get off this podcast and not make changes. For those that heard all these good things by our need, like a quick win. They need to take action immediately today. It's going to be super specific to what their dynamic is in their house right? But I want to say A let's pull it back and say if they're not feeling 100% happy in their relationship with either their children or their partner, what is one thing that they could do themselves without bringing either of those other people involved? What is one thing they could do themselves today that would benefit those relationships.

One thing that I think would be really important is figuring out how you can at least towards yourself, articulate what is making you so unhappy. And then describe to yourself before you try to describe to anybody else, what you'd actually need, in what's called positive terms. So we often describe what we need a negative terms, which is I don't want, I don't want the house to be a mess anymore. I don't want to be the only one cleaning the house, I don't want to have no sex life, whatever it is. But instead, with sitting with yourself and saying, This is what I'm noticing, this is the template you can use. I notice x. So you're noticing I noticed that we don't have sex anymore. I noticed that the kids don't listen to me, I noticed the house is a wreck. And I'm feeling so talking about what you're feeling. feelings, feelings are not thought sometimes we say I'm feeling like nobody cares about me. Just to feelings, where I'm feeling sad, I'm feeling angry, I'm feeling overwhelmed, pull up the feelings chart. These things make me think then write down your thoughts. It makes me think I'm not valued in this house, it makes me think I'm never going to have an opportunity to focus on my career, it makes me think that I'm never going to get a chance to rest. And what I need is and then talk about what you really need, write it down. What I need is more help. What I need is a break. What I need is more compassion for my family members. Whatever it is talk about what you actually do want, not what you don't want, what you do need, and get clear with that on your own. And then you can try to go and share that with people. But once you know what it is, and you can start to set limits and boundaries, you know, if what you know is I need more time that might look like at nighttime when you want to play. I work with a lot of moms and we talk a lot about just being like the hyperactive Mom where you're like, sure I'll play another game. And yes, like we'll do this together, and we can keep talking and I'm not gonna go, I can't even get the bills paid because you yell at me when I'm on my computer or whatever it is. But really being able to say then now that you know what you want, you can say to people, Mommy needs more time each day. So I am going to be taking 45 minutes, and you can go and take that 45 minutes knowing that's what you need in order to feel better. So good. Okay,

so I am noticing blank and rude. I am I notice I feel I'm thinking I need. Yeah, those are the four. Okay, so good. Liz, thank you so much. This is such good conversation. I can't wait to have you back and just unpack your new book. And we could talk about all these things and so much more. So thank you. Thanks for having me. You your story and what you have to offer this world builds me up. I want to meet you join me on Instagram at this is Kelsey Smith. And let's create a ripple effect for mamas with goals together is better