Creativity can be a powerful tool for spreading eco-awareness. As the climate crisis worsens, today’s guest, sustainable sculptor and NOT REAL ART grant winner Danielle O’Malley, joins us to discuss the intersection of art and environmental awareness and how communities can work together to stem the rising tide.

Growing up in rural Montana, Danielle learned to garden, preserve food, and care for livestock, which heightened her sensitivity to local environments and the increasingly hazardous climate. Still based in Montana, she now creates large-scale, site-specific sculptural installations that explore the ecological impact of industrialization with a combination of upcycled materials and industrial surplus. Throughout the episode, Danielle shares insights into her creative process, which ebbs and flows with the season. 

Our conversation also explores the complexities of being an artist in a conservative state like Montana, where the creative community is supportive but underfunded. Danielle reflects on the challenges and opportunities that arise from living and working in a rural setting, emphasizing how mentorship and community support can empower emerging artists to embrace their creativity without the constraints of societal expectations. Danielle’s philosophy on resource sharing and grassroots networking manifests in projects like Montana Clay, a gathering designed to foster connections between ceramic artists who live and work in “Big Sky Country.”

Danielle’s story invites listeners to reconsider the role of artists in society and the vital importance of nurturing creative voices that resonate with the existential dilemma of our time. 

For more information on this episode, please visit http://notrealart.com/danielle-omalley

The Not Real Art Podcast is intended for creative audiences only.

The Not Real Art Podcast celebrates creativity.

And creative culture worldwide.

It contains material that is fresh, fun and inspiring and is not suitable for boring old art snobs.

Now let's get started and enjoy the show.

Greetings and salutations, my creative brothers and sisters.

Welcome to Not Real Art, the podcast where we talk to the world's most creative people.

I am your host.

Faithful, trusty, loyal, tireless, relentless host.

Sourdough coming at you from Crew West Studio in Los Angeles.

How are you people?

Happy New Year.

I think this might be one of the first shows of the new year here.

We've sort of been in a little bit of a hiatus with the holidays, so it's great to be back and it's great to have you here.

Thanks for tuning in.

We do this for you.

It's all about you.

If you weren't here, well, I'd just be talking into a microphone and that would just be sad and lonely.

So I'm so glad you're here.

Thanks for tuning in.

We appreciate your loyalty so much.

Today, today, today we have the one and only Danielle O'Malley.

Danielle is an incredible artist out of Montana.

So you are in for a treat.

Danielle O'Malley is a Montana based sculptor whose hand built large scale ceramic work increases people's environmental awareness.

In addition to her active studio practice, O'Malley teaches exhibits nationally and serves her community as Executive Director for the Art Mobile, Art Mobile of Montana and Director of Montana Clay.

Danielle's work is monumental in both scale and symbolic message and inventive and supportive materials.

Crocheted plastic bags, upcycled fabric, natural dyes.

Her surprising combination of scavenged materials recontextualized via textile processes in concert with her earthen forms are startling in scale so viewers feel an urgency about the eco crisis.

They are big, big pieces.

I love her work.

The scale of it.

It's amazing.

OMalley's forms are influenced by landscapes exemplifying nature's magnitude and industrial objects indicative of warning.

She observes daily traps, grids, smokestacks, rolling prairie scapes, endless waterscapes, vast mountainscapes.

The confrontational feeling of larger than life work in one space is unavoidable and instrumental in underscoring concepts of environmental concern and warning.

Exaggerated scale increases artwork significance through unexpected surprise and challenges the viewer as they experience altered states of familiar forms.

Most recently, O'Malley was interviewed on the Tales of Red Clay Rambler, recognized and chosen for publication by Ceramics Monthly, the Surface Design association quarterly journal, on and on and on.

She has received multiple local, state, and national grants, including our own.

Her work is in permanent collections at the Northwest Art Gallery, among other places, and she's in numerous private collections.

So, without further ado, I want to get into this interview with Danielle O'Malley.

I'm just so grateful that she's part of our alumni class now of grant winners.

She's a brilliant human and we're just so lucky to have her as part of our community and part of our family and one of our grant winning alumni.

So without further ado, let's get into this fantastic conversation, actually extended conversation, because we ran really long.

She and I just were chopping it up, solving all the world's problems.

So without further ado, let's get into this with the one and only Danielle O'Malley.

Danielle O'Malley, welcome to Not Real Art.

Hi.

Thanks for having me.

My gosh.

Well, you've earned this.

I mean, you are one of our 20, 24 grant recipients and we are so honored to have you as part of our little family and community.

And you're classing up the joint.

Congratulations on your, on being a grant recipient this year.

Thank you so much.

It's a really huge honor.

I was really shocked to hear that with the amount of applications this year, that I was one of six people, so really big honor.

Thank you.

It was.

Well, you know, I.

Yeah, and.

And you were one of six out of almost 2,000, I think.

Well, we had, I forget the numbers now, but we had a.

We had 2,000 artists start their application.

But it was, it was, it was an amazing field of talent.

And, and you were one of the six that were granted, given grants.

And so, you know, I'm so proud of all the grant recipients.

And you know, part of the grant, right, as you know, is yeah, sure, you get some money and that's great and important, but also we want to try to take, you know, use our platform to honor and celebrate you and your story and your practice.

And so each of the grant recipients comes on and, and I get the, the lucky opportunity to sort of sit down and, and have these chats.

And so I'm so grateful to have you here today.

And by the way, finally, because You've had to.

You've had to deal with our craziness with scheduling, so thank you for.

For being here.

How the heck are you?

Danielle, What's.

What's.

What are you working on today?

What's going on today?

What's up with you?

Well, every day is a new day, and my schedule changes per day.

So for today, I've been kind of.

Doing, like, mine, as we were saying.

Right.

Yeah, it.

You never know what's going to throw at you.

So, yeah, today I've been working on executive director duties for Artmobile, trying to get that in order and keep that flowing.

And then this evening, I'll probably wind down with some textile work and.

Yeah, wind down with work.

I love that.

So, you know, this was a kind of a silly way of getting into just, you know, the.

Your daily life, you know, I mean, you know, every artist has a different process, has a different kind of schedule and approach to their work.

And, you know, it sounds like today, anyway, you're going to be in the studio making work in the evening.

Is that pretty typical for you?

Like, how give you're.

Because you're so busy in different things.

Like, how often are you able to get into the studio to make work?

And.

And is it.

Are you able to be rigorous about it?

Are you rigorous about it?

How.

How does that work for you?

Yeah, I think so.

Since graduation with my master's degree, it's been.

I've been like, realizing that my practice is very, like, seasonal.

So I actually don't really have, like, a set studio at home.

So I find my home space is great for, like, doing, like, my textiles and slicing and dicing plastic bags and crocheting them, or I'm currently working on, like, an installation with crocheted CDs, so doing stuff like that.

Whereas I've been applying to, like, residencies and stuff.

So kind of in the off season of art mobile, so, like summertime kind of season, that's when I do residencies and get into, like, my clay work and get into, like, really big stuff.

So.

So, yeah, it kind of really, like, es and flows.

And then when I'm in residency mode, like, that's my sole focus.

So I'm just like pretty much 12 hours a day, like, in the studio, doing the thing, loving it up, enjoying that time, myself and my practice.

And then when I'm not doing residencies, yeah, that's when I do, like, the.

The things that are easier to pick up and doing, like, little sections and.

Yeah, that's so interesting to hear.

You talk about it like that, you know, in terms of almost using sort of a, I don't know, framing or, or, or words that, that reflect nature.

Because, I mean, your work is a commentary, right, on the state of our planet and using natural materials and handmade objects.

And so it's interesting that, that you, that you talked about, you know, your process or your work sort of being seasonal, you know, seasonal, you know, given the, the nature of your work.

That's.

That's really interesting.

And, and I get it too, right?

Because, I mean, that's, that's how the muses are.

That's how creativity is, you know, in many ways, right?

It is, yes.

It can.

It can.

Some artists can be very rigorous about it and get into that studio 9 to 5 and, you know, and that's their approach.

And, and, but, but even if you're in the studio nine to five, at least in my experience, and I'm.

I don't have an mfa.

I'm not an artist, but I've been, you know, I've been around enough.

It feels, you know, creativity is a fickle thing, right?

You know, the muses are fickle.

You know, you have, you have people like, was it Chuck.

Chuck Closet said inspiration is for amateurs?

I mean, you know, so it's a.

It.

But there is that ebb and flow, right?

I mean, it's a very natural kind of energy, isn't it?

It is.

And I even find that, like, kind of ebb and flow, like, kind of like my clay work is kind of like in one part of the year and textiles another, and then installation work another time.

Like, it feels very natural for me, I think, just maybe because of those seasonal changes or.

Yeah, it's a process that works really well for me.

Kind of like taking things and focusing on them at different, different times during the year.

It also kind of keeps well, in scale.

Must.

Yeah, right.

In scale.

Must.

Must constrain you in.

In interesting ways too, right?

Because I mean, if you're working, some of you, you know, you're, you're.

I'm thinking of your ceramics, obviously.

So much of.

Even so much of your work is very large scale, and that's just going to take more time.

Right?

So versus, you know, of course, your fiber work.

I mean, everything you do is very complex.

But, you know, just the one dimension of scale.

I mean, presumably smaller objects are just going to be easier to make and less time consuming, I guess.

For sure.

Yeah.

And, you know, I do partake in, like, making smaller objects.

I consider that more of, like, My bread and butter.

So, like, I sell, like, pottery or smaller works that, like, sale kind of things, and my exhibitions consist of, like, works that are, like, very monumental in their scale.

Human sized for larger impact.

Yeah, monumental scale for a monumental message and.

Yeah.

So I'm forever outgrowing my.

My workspaces and having to come up with, like, inventive ways of, like, exploring things.

Forever outgrowing your workspaces.

Yeah, it's a problem.

I love that.

Constantly emerging.

Emerging, you know.

Yeah.

Out of.

Out of small spaces into bigger spaces.

I love it.

Yeah.

But it presents challenges that are kind of fun in, like, the work process, too.

Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, because I've been on.

On so many levels.

Right.

It's not like you can just pick up your.

Your paintbrush and go with your canvas and your colors.

Right.

Like, I mean, my God.

I mean, you have a.

You have a whole operation.

It's industrial scale, you know, excuse the analogy.

Right.

But it's, you know, a lot of gear, equipment, material, you know.

You know, you need big space, as we've.

As we've already said, you know.

Yeah, yeah.

Though there's.

There's an epic nature.

I mean, your work is quite epic.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I feel like, as far as, like, workspaces, like, I'm always looking up, so, like, I feel, like, upwards.

There's, like, always, like, a lot of unused space.

So whether that's, like, the height of my work or a new place to store something, I try to keep the floor space as open as possible.

So, like.

Yeah, but it's interesting when I settle into, like, a workspace, people, like, coming in because, like, the space itself becomes, like, very much an immersive installation, as I'm just like, this, like, mad scientist in all.

All the corners doing something over here and something over there and trying to find a way to, like, stash this piece safely and kind of out of the way so I can continue making something else.

And.

Yeah.

Of course.

I mean, I told.

I hadn't really thought of it like that, but of course, that makes total sense that, you know, if a friend or colleague's coming into the studio and you've got this.

These huge objects that you're.

That you're making in this huge space, that it somehow just is a symbiotic dynamic.

Right.

Between the.

Between the positive and the negative or whatever.

Right.

For sure.

Yeah.

And it's a great way to see, like, different.

Like.

Like, in my head, there's, like, relationships between how a ceramic piece is gonna work.

With like fabric or pulped paper or something like that.

But having all these processes going on within the singular workspace is really fun too because it allows for like, play of like, oh, what happens if I bring this over here?

Cause I hadn't thought of that yet.

And it can create like these new and exciting opportunities for myself just with like different ways of juxtaposing my works together, if that makes sense.

When do you feel like you found your voice as an artist?

That's a great question.

So I think, you know, like, being an artist was like the first thing I ever wanted to be growing up.

Like, people would ask, like, what do you want to be when you grow up?

And an artist?

So I always knew that the creative lifestyle was for me.

I always knew that I had like a passion for nature and like the wonders within the natural world.

Really driven by like a lot of curiosity and questions really drive me.

So I think like my entire life I've always kind of like worked around that.

But then going to graduate school, it really helped me kind of like nail down.

Like, I'm really intrigued by these and I'm curious by them.

And it started like way back in my childhood.

That's where the roots of the all was.

And then bringing in like an eco friendly message like, we need to preserve our natural resources and take care of our environment through stewardship in order for it to continue supporting us.

Because one of the critics I like to read, Lucy Lippard, one of her quotes that I really relate to is, we need nature, nature doesn't need us.

So I think that's like a really important thing to like kind of bring to the foreground is why it's so important to take care of the natural world and value it.

Well, this is such an important conversation and I.

This is, this is one of the reasons why we love your work so much.

Because we need to be reminded, right, that we're not separate, but apart for sure.

And, and it's like the arrogance of our species.

Yeah.

Like, like, is it pot?

Is it possible?

I, like, I'm, I'm with you.

Like, I bet.

But like, I worry.

Like, I, you know, like I'm, you know, I got kids and.

But I also was, you know, big camper, canoe or backpacker, outdoors guy.

I love nature, you know, but I also look at, you know, I try to be a realist.

Not cynical, but I try to be realist.

I err on the side of optimism.

But I, But I look at our species and I kind.

Sometimes I think, yeah, you Know what?

Like, like we're on a path that.

I wonder, you know, is it possible to save ourselves?

Like, is there, is it, is it Darwinian?

Is it, is it.

You know, because we know that nature is creative destruction all the time, right?

So, like, do we have, do we have the right to have hope?

I mean, what do you, what I know you think deeply about these issues.

No, I think we, I think there's always room for hope.

I think hope is a big driver, like, motivator of my work as well.

I think that, you know, nature is very regenerative.

It's kind of like a lot of, like, different organs within the human, human body.

For example, like the liver, like, it can get damaged to the point of like, almost completely failing and then regenerate back to a point of healthy origin.

And I think that the natural world has that kind of resilience as well.

I think a lot of it comes down to educating people because I think the more that we study the environment, the more we're finding out, like, how much it supports us.

Basically.

Like, if we, if we go away, the natural world's going to come back in full force, like plants.

Everything's going, like, totally be fine.

So I think it comes down to, like, educating people and talking about, about these topics in a way that people can.

It like, increases their awareness and their appreciation.

And when people have like, an awareness and appreciation for something, they tend to care a little bit more about it.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

I've, I've always said, you know, myself, it's like, well, you know, the good news is nature wins in the end.

You know, the, the, the, the question is.

The, the, the, the question is, are we going to be around to appreciate it?

You know, and, and, and that's, that's the trick, right?

And, and, and so, so, yeah, it's, it, it, it's, it's what?

Yeah, it's.

It's just one of those things that, you know, we, we, we for all kinds of reasons, I don't know, I, you know, we politicized it.

You know, we, we, um.

It's important to know core drivers, right?

You, you need to know what the root causes of things are to solve a problem or fix something or innovate or whatever the case might be.

We, we tend to politicize this and get focused on causality rather than just remembering what mom told us, right?

Which was, you know, clean your bedroom, make your bed, tidy up, don't make a mess.

Don't make a mess.

Humanity is messy.

That's right.

That's right.

For sure.

Well, yeah, we forget those simplistic things and I think we also, like, it's not just like individual responsibility, like individuals do play a role, but I think it also comes down to holding large scale corporations accountable for, for their actions and as their consumers.

You know, our money speaks in a capitalistic society.

So like if we stop supporting these large scale corporations and taking away like what's driving them money, they might have to start thinking a little bit more about their manners of operation.

But okay, so human greed is certainly, certainly one of the core drivers.

Right.

One of the problems or causes, if you will, of exploitation of limited natural resources.

Right.

But what, but what of religion?

Religion and the environment?

Yes.

Is that kind of.

To what extent does religion impact the environment in a negative way?

And I have my own thoughts on this, so.

But I'm gonna ask you first.

Yeah, that's a really interesting question.

I hadn't really, I don't really practice religion myself, so I guess I haven't like really put that into the foreground of it.

I mean, I guess you can think about it like religion.

Like a lot of people go out on like missionary expeditions to like, like there's like the, the saving kind of complex.

Like so there's like carbon emissions emitted through their travel.

I actually live right across the street from a couple of churches, so I see that like all the time.

And for me my observations are there are two empty parking lots that have their lights on 24 7, which is terrible for like bird migration.

It's terrible for polluters.

Obviously like people aren't really carpooling to like go to their church.

So there's travel emissions there.

And then, you know, you can think about it too as part of like it's kind of like unused land.

Like this land is only being used like very, in very small portions.

Like when there's like a homeless population for example, like a block down the road.

And like this homeless population isn't even allowed to like occupy this land without being chased off or arrested.

So I think, yeah, religion I think is.

Yeah, it's linked to a lot of oddities or like, you know, it, it's even.

Yeah, yeah, you're, I mean you're, you're so, you're so smart.

I just, I just love how where you went with that because I hadn't thought of that part of it.

I was going more meta with just the idea, you know, sort of the philosophy, philosophical ideas of, you know, you know, for a very Christian, Judeo Christian sort Of ideas of like, domination and, you know, like, you know, God gave you dom, you know, dominion over the earth and the animals and, you know, and that there's a gold, gold guy in the sky that's got a plan and everything's gonna be fine and you know, those kinds of big ideas, that's kind of where I was going with it.

But, but, but you, but the very practical things that you talked about.

Fascinating.

You're right.

I hadn't thought of that.

Of course they leave their lights on all the time.

Of course it sits there empty most of the week.

Of course.

Of course they don't want homeless people on their property because of course nobody wants it in their backyard.

It's so typical.

It's hypocritical and just, you know, cynical and, you know, all of those things that you mentioned, I mean, it's a.

You're right.

I mean, it.

What a waste of space, really.

I mean, what happened the old days of like a little meeting hall that was like non denominational and people just went in there and shared a space, like, you know, like a community.

Yeah, well, and then, I mean, look, you.

You live in, you live in Montana, right?

And.

And you know, this idea, you know, I said religion and I meant religion.

But, but there's as we, you know, intellectuals like to think about or whatever, it's like, oh, well, religion's one thing, spirituality is another.

You know, when you think about how first nation peoples, indigenous peoples, tended to live more in balance with the natural world because somehow they understood the symbiotic nature of their connection to the environment.

And then along comes a European person with the more of a Judeo Christian kind of mentality.

And boy, oh boy, you know, talk about a difference in approaches.

And one is arguably much better for the environment than the other.

Yeah, and that's a really good point too.

Like the idea of Christianity and this idea that we're superior to the natural world, that kind of brings back thoughts of when I was a kid.

I was like, I started off really bad in school and my mom was like, we gotta fix this, so went to a Christian.

Were you smoking in the, in the, in the bathroom?

Did you get caught smoking in the bathroom?

Huh?

No, I was just busy, like dancing down the hallways and screaming at Reese.

Good.

Even better.

Yeah, I was just annoying.

Yeah, yeah, you and me both, as you could tell.

So, yeah, she put me in a Christian school.

And even though, like, didn't practice that religion or anything, it was just like this really weird experience.

But one of the Things that, like, within this conversation that's being evoked is this idea there.

The school people, administrators, they were very like, cats and dogs don't go to heaven.

They don't have souls because they aren't people.

So, like, their value system was based on, like, who had a soul and who didn't.

And.

Yeah, I'm finding that, like, very fitting of this conversation right now.

But, yeah, you reminded me of that.

Like, I, I'd forgotten that.

You know, I lost my religion a long time ago.

My grandfather was a minister and I grew up on, on his church pew.

And I love my grandfather very much, but, you know, eventually I realized I didn't share his beliefs.

But.

But you reminded me of that.

You're right.

Like, like you could squash a bug because a bug didn't have a soul.

Yeah, yeah.

Which I always thought was very, like, what about love thy neighbor?

Like, these are also our neighbors.

Yes, absolutely.

You know, it's funny when, you know, you know, when people get anxious about, you know, the inevitable ant festation, you know, it's like, oh, my God, we gotta call the exterminator or the term, you know, because there's a infestation of ants in the pantry.

And, you know, I'll say to them, you know, hey, the ants were here way before you.

Like, who's, who's invading who here, you know.

Yep.

We don't like it.

Let's have some perspective.

Yeah, that's, yeah, no, it's, it's so.

So as an artist embracing these incredibly important existential and political issues and, you know, and, you know, working and living, at least at this point, you know, in Montana, which is, you know, conservative state, you know, very red.

And, you know, you know, I'll be, I'll be the first to admit I'm, you know, no shame in the game here.

You're listening.

You're talking to a big fan of Yellowstone.

I love watching Yellowstone.

It's a love good for, good for you.

But it's a, it's a love letter to Montana.

And I've been to Montana.

I learned to ski in Big sky and whatever.

But, you know, it is such a beautiful place and it is very conservative and I've, and personally, I've spent a lot of time in big, open, wild places for, you know, extended periods.

And I've also lived in the heart of the city.

And, you know, one of the things that strikes me is that, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's very interesting one's consciousness and connection to nature in a city versus in open spaces.

And yet it's interesting how, you know, at least if you believe the.

The current rhetoric and narrative, city folks are more concerned about climate change than.

Than, you know, country folk, so to speak.

Maybe there's some, you know, I mean, that's an overproductive simplification.

I get that, but I think you get my point.

You know, my question is this.

What is your experience in Montana, you know, as an artist taking on these issues in a state that may not necessarily see the issues the same way?

Do you get pushback?

Do you get support?

Do you get protest?

Do you get adoration?

What is your experience there in Montana?

It's actually really interesting.

It depends on where I am in Montana.

So overall, to, like, throw, like, a blanket statement over, like, the state, despite it being very conservative, I feel like Montanans are very protective of the land because we live in such a pristine state.

Most of us, we live out here because we like rural communities.

We like less population.

We're more of, like, an outdoorsy or our hobbies are more driven towards the outdoors.

So I think regardless, like, very typically, regardless of whether you're like, red or blue or whatever, Montanans are very defensive of our land.

With that being said, there's still, like, struggles with, like, large corporations like, to come in and mine us and mine us dry.

You know, there's like, the Berkeley Pit in Butte, and that's like one of the world's largest Superfund sites.

And it's like 40 billion gallons of, like, polluted water or something like that from all the excavation processes of, like, this mining operation that when it shut down, the water came in, flooded all the tunnels, and it turned into this lake that just absorbed all the chemicals that were on earth.

But then there's also, like, another controversy.

Is like, the Smith River.

And the Smith river is like, this wonderful resource in Montana.

It's a river and you can, like, put in for, like, a lottery every year to, like, go on, like, this rafting trip.

It's like a once in a lifetime opportunity.

I've been very fortunate, and I've done the trip three times.

Whoa.

Yeah.

Who do you know?

We just threw our names, you know, somebody.

So, yeah, it's like this very pristine wilderness.

Like, there's zero cell phone reception.

I just leave my phone in the car for the week that we're gone.

It's 60 miles of river with, like, hardly any human contact outside of who you're on the raft with.

But there's a big controversy right now that they want to set up a mine on the river.

And it's been back and forth for years, Right.

So there is that aspect, like Montana is so beautiful.

And I think like a lot of us, like non corporate people are very protective of that.

Right.

But then corporations are like, oh, there's a lot of resources out there.

It's great for oil or fracking or gold, copper, all these different things.

So I think there, it's kind of like a spectrum for sure.

And then on a more personal note, like one thing I've noticed, I just recently did a teaching stint at University of Montana Western in Dillon.

And that was really eye opening for me.

So very sweet ranching community.

They operate on like a block schedule instead of semester.

And during that block I was there teaching.

So it was like three and a half weeks.

I was given a solo show at the gallery there and it was really interesting.

I was like in the studio late one night after teaching and one of the security guards came in and we were talking and he's like, what's your work about?

And the minute I started with like environmental concepts, you could see just like the glassed over, like his body language changed and he just kind of like casually walked away.

Right.

But then on the other hand, they have like an environmental sustainability degree at that school.

So like all those students were coming in, they're like, oh my gosh, it makes sense.

Art and environment.

And they're like, we didn't know that these like two fields connected so well.

So like there was like a lot of excitement too.

Yeah.

So it's kind of all over the place, I suppose.

Well, it's just like we've learned about life in so many dimensions.

It's a spectrum, right?

Like, it is, it is, it is a shade, shades of gray from black to white.

And.

And you know, because, I mean, you talk about Montana as residents being protective of their environment because they enjoy the outdoors and what have you.

However, to your point, you know, these corporations that come in, I mean, at the end of the day, the, you know, the legislature, the state, the citizens have to let the corporations come in, right?

Like they have to give them the permits and sell them the land and, or the rights or whatever.

And, and so at the same time there is this tension of, of folks that want to preserve and folks that want to progress and you know, or whatever the case might be.

And, and it's funny because you said you don't watch Yellowstone, but that was basically the premise of Yellowstone.

Well, it's not a mine on The Smith River.

It's an airport in the middle of the Yellowstone ranch.

Right.

It's very Shakespearean English Lear or whatever.

But anyway.

But yeah, no, I mean this is the, this is the, the, the, the, the, the push, pull and the, the, the, the, that, that tension, right, as a species grows and becomes dominant and, and, and you know, I don't know, starts to overcome the other species and the other, you know, barriers.

And, and so, so yeah, it's, it's sort of like, you know, again, that reality, you know, how do we curb that?

How do we manage that?

Because, you know, it does feel, you know, sometimes just so, so just, I don't know, inevitable, you know, to sound cynical, but, but, but, but then, but then.

Right.

You know, and I don't mean to make, make excuses for people who aren't doing their part, but for me, myself and I, I guess when I think about to our point earlier about how, you know, at the end of the day nature wins.

We're part of this massive universe.

We're dust in the wind.

You know, it's all a natural process and I'm grateful to be part of it.

You know, I don't know.

I find hope in that too.

You talk about the cell phone coverage in on the Smith River.

That's such a fascinating point too because our species can't even find silence anymore.

Yes, that's very true.

That's actually even something I talk about like in my personal life is like this idea of we're always on call and like this expectation of we always need to be available.

And it's so I feel like I grew up in a very old style way and then like I'm currently living in a very, in our modern world so having like these two very different perspectives.

So like where I grew up, like we were out in the sticks, like sticks were our toys.

Quite literally.

I lived in the sticks where sticks were our toys.

I love that.

That's great.

So you know, we learned to entertain ourselves.

We didn't have a tv.

I actually didn't have a television in my life until a couple years ago.

Even cell phone, I didn't get that until my gosh.

I was in my 20s when I got my first cell phone.

And just like everyone thought it was like the weirdest thing.

They had to like teach me how to use like this like device.

And I was like, I don't understand this at all.

And now that like, you know, I'm like love that into that part of the culture, I'm like, oh my gosh it's exhausting.

Like just.

Yeah, it's constant.

Why does my toaster need an app?

My toaster does not need an app.

And you know, and I can't log right.

And I can't log into anything now without triple confirmation of getting a password, passcode.

You know, it takes five minutes to log into my bank account now.

You know, I say just put a chip, just get it over with, put the chip in my neck because this is driving me fucking bananas.

But you, you, you mentioned the cell phone.

I mean the cell phone is so key because you know, a lot of folks want to point to social media, for example, as being, you know, the most toxic thing that ever happened to our so called democracy.

I would argue it was the cell phone.

Yeah, you know, I think I would agree with that because even thinking about like, like where I grew up, until I was about 18, we had just a landline and it was if we aren't home or if we're outside in the yard, you leave a message, we'll get back to you.

We had dial up Internet for our one computer.

And that was so annoying.

I just never used it.

I like argued with my like high school teachers even to like be able to like handwrite my, my reports and stuff because I was like, no, that's just a nightmare using our computer at home.

Can I please just handwrite it?

So yeah, I think the cell phone just really well cause it's attached to us all the time too.

And even like you think about that like, so I mentioned like, you know, I've been like taking like CDs like old CDs that people are getting rid of and crocheting them, turning them into tapestries.

But that body of work that I've been working on most recently has got me thinking of things like cell phones and the environmental waste that those create.

Because our technology is updating so fast all the time.

Like it makes, makes everything so obsolete so fast.

And then like you just can't use like for example, like.

So I'm director for ArtMobile Montana.

And we have old technologies that were with the organization for like the first 20 years.

But I've been trying to get into them to find like our institutional histories that, you know, kind of fill in those blanks and I can't access them because they're so outdated.

So it's like this interesting like these things we rely on all the time, but technology is always developing ahead of us.

And then we have to like out with the old, in with the new, just to keep up to like the modern day.

And it's that voracious appetite for profit.

Right.

As well.

Right.

You got constant growth.

I mean, that's the thing.

It's like, that's for me, is one of the issues about capitalism.

And, and trust me, I love money.

I'm, you know, like, I'm not, you know, the, you know, like there's, I think a lot of, I think the issue is greed.

Not so much capitalism, but greed, which is two different things.

But yes, I mean, this constant focus on growth, but at what cost?

Right.

Like what expense?

And we're, we're so focused on the innovation part, but we never focus on the post.

The post innovation part or the upcycling part.

Like, you know, how do we, you know, if you're going to, if you're going to be in the business of mining precious, precious materials for technology, then it feels like we should figure out a way to make those same companies responsible for capturing those precious minerals, you know, back.

And so there's just not full cycle.

Right.

And you know, we don't hold the players responsible.

Right.

For the, for the end to end life cycle of their products.

Yeah.

So this past summer, I came across the term circular economy to like, kind of just interesting.

Okay, I've never heard of that circle.

Yeah.

So I had the opportunity to do a residency in Missoula, Montana through Open Air Montana.

And it's a really radical, super cool residency place.

It's based in Missoula, but they have like host sites for artists to go to work all over the state.

So I got to work at a place called Home Resource, which is like Habitat for Humanity meets your local neighborhood thrift store, plus like heavy contracting gear.

It was really awesome.

And they were just like, here you go.

Use what we got.

And with that, I got to like, kind of listen in on like some of like their educational components.

But they were talking about how like a place like that contributes to a circular economy because, like, the object was birthed here, it was used here, deconstructed.

It came to like the Home Resource center, and then someone else came and got that and gave it yet another life.

So, like, it's still kind of moving forward and how that's a way to like, kind of reduce waste is like the idea of that circular economy.

So yeah, I thought that was like a really, really wonderful term to kind of become familiar with.

Yeah, that is great.

And yeah, you know, but I want to go back also, right.

To our conversation about the cell phone too, because, you know, to, to Your point about, you know, just the.

The constant, you know, production, I guess, of.

Of new products and.

And what have you.

I mean, the, again, the practical impact of.

Of.

Of all these kind of, you know, physical products and the manufacturing them and all of that, like, that is absolutely a tragic kind of crisis situation that we got to deal with.

But, but.

But the actual cell phone itself, in terms of the utility of it, you know, it has also been so toxic to, it feels like, to our culture and to our communities because we stop talking to each other in line at the bank.

Right.

So, like.

Like back in the day, you know, if you were at the line at the bank or the DMV or whatever, you were forced to talk to your neighbor, you know, and.

But as soon as the cell phone came along, I could go into my bubble, I could call my best friend two states away, and it just started to, like, break down.

Just the fabric of our basic community, which is communication.

And people close to us became farther apart, and people farther apart became closer together, and it just.

It just inverted everything and in just this weird way.

For sure.

Yeah.

Even, like, you know, because a lot of, like, stuff, like, I work in, like, a studio, my job with art mobile, I work from home.

So it's very, like, insular.

So, yeah, without, like.

It's funny, it's like a necessity in our modern world, but I agree, it has broken down lines of communication.

Yeah.

One of the things that I've wondered recently, like, all these different thoughts kind of flowing through your head all the time, but I've even wondered, like, have we gotten ourselves to the point that we're so connected that it's almost even easier to become isolated in our world, if that makes.

Yep, yep, that's true.

No, totally.

Like, these feelings of, like.

Yeah, just, like, feeling, like, lonely or depressed, and it's almost harder to, like, reach out to the people, like your neighbors because of these things.

Like, we're so in tune with these technological objects.

Well, it is.

Listen, depending on how conspiratorial you want to go here, because.

Because, you know.

You know, I feel like.

And I think about this a lot myself, it's sort of like we are just becoming nodes at a network.

Like, we don't have to live in.

We don't have to leave our house anymore.

The world can come to us.

You know, like, we can.

I live in Los Angeles, and, you know, there's not an Apple I.

You know, I can have virtually anything brought to my doorstep here in Los Angeles.

Right.

And.

And because of technology, Your point?

I mean, you and I are doing this basically over zoom.

It's not zoom.

It's a zoom, like, environment.

But you get the point.

And, you know, I don't have to go to the movies anymore.

I can stream something on Netflix.

I can.

I don't have to go to the grocery store.

I can have groceries brought to me, you know, whatever the case is.

And we just have.

We don't have to.

To your point, we can isolate.

Right.

For sure.

And, you know, healthy isolation within limited, you know, everything in moderation.

Right, including moderation.

But it's like, you know, healthy.

You know, healthy isolation is absolutely essential.

You know, I think what we're getting at.

Right.

Is the fact that so much of our isolation is just unhealthy in part because it's not even intentional.

Like, we're not necessarily opting into this.

It's.

We're the.

We're the frog in the water getting cooked.

That's a really great analogy.

Yeah, for sure.

I mean.

Yeah.

And it kind of removes us from, like, the natural world as well.

Not only, like, other people and other humans, but.

Yeah, kind of removes our.

Our need to, like, not our need, but I feel like we've become more of, like, an indoor species as a result too.

Right, Right, Absolutely, absolutely.

Indoors.

And I'll see you and raise you one.

Indoor and sedentary.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

And that kind of makes my brain jump to, like, the world of AI too.

Like, so we have, like, all this tech stuff and the intrusiveness of AI in our lives too, and how, like, that's kind of being forced upon us.

Like, we're not really being given much choice on it.

Like, you Google search now, and it's like AI says this and AI says that.

You know, social media, you have to put, like, an AI label on anything that isn't, like, original.

And even how that, like, is very detrimental to, like, not just us and our, like, critical thinking skills, but it's also very detrimental to the environment.

As, you know, AI is a contributing factor to rising carbon.

Carbon emissions.

And.

Yeah, yeah, it all feels so, like, interconnected.

It absolutely does.

And I mean, you know, I'm not a conspiratorial guy, but, like, there's absolutely an argument that I make in my head sometimes late at night that, you know, we have been invaded by aliens.

Like, like, you know what I mean?

Like, like at some point, at some point, a superior life form, you know, came.

Came in and assimilated and they figured out a way to get us to, you know, be sheeps led to the slaughter.

Right?

And.

And it's.

And it's.

It's.

It's.

We just can't.

I mean, like, we've been.

We're being cooked and we can't.

Like, we're stuck.

Like, you know, we.

They won, you know, And.

And.

And.

And that's cool.

Like, I'm not, you know, I'm not mad at it because, like, at the end of the day, like, if that is the case, like, that's just nature.

Like, it's a big universe, like, the multiple parallel universes of, like, what, you know, like, anything is possible, man.

It's just, you know, it's.

It's.

Yeah.

I don't know.

I don't know.

Yo.

Yeah.

The frog being cooked in the.

In the water, though.

That's a very poignant analogy.

I hate when I make a point.

You know, it's like.

It's like, let's.

Let.

Let's.

Let's.

Let's.

Let's keep it.

Let's keep it.

You know, it's not, you know.

Yeah, let.

Let's.

Let's.

Let's try to have a little.

I prefer to dance than.

Than.

Than think sometimes.

But what is it about?

I mean, what.

You know, when you, you know, so many young.

So many artists start young drawing and painting, but, you know, at what point did you wake up to natural materials of clay and fiber?

You know, like, like, like, do you remember when your hands, you know, first touched decomposing feldspar and realized, like, it was the.

The.

The.

The.

The.

The.

The.

The gift you've been waiting for?

Like, like, like go back, you know, go back to that day when you discovered.

I think it's been like.

It's not necessarily like a day more so as, like a lifetime of evolution where, like, like I said, growing up, like, sticks were our toys and rocks and just kind of like.

Like, we didn't have toys.

We didn't have, like, a tv.

It was all right, kids go outside for the day.

Like, so the choices were read a book or run around the woods.

So, like, I was like, always, like, just covered in whatever and, like, messing around things and bending leaves and, like, just like, making forts or, like, I called them my playhouses.

Like, I would, like, lash sapling trees together and create, like, jungle gyms and, you know, never thought much about that.

And then we did 4H growing up where I did, like, you know, I was like, okay.

Like, that was like, what paid for my.

My first year of school as an undergraduate student was all my 4H experience.

So I would take, like, the 4H book home, and I would be like, all right, I'm gonna make as much money as possible, and I'm gonna get one entry in every single category.

So because of that, I figured out how to, like, work with wax.

I was quilting, I was growing things in the garden, harvesting, like, so it was just anything and everything.

And I didn't get introduced to clay itself until I was a sophomore in college.

I just had a teacher that was like.

Because I didn't really like.

Even though I always knew I wanted to be an artist, there was an aversion to it because everyone was like, you can't do that.

You won't make it.

Artists are only ever starving.

That's not a real career.

So I was trying to figure out, like, what were other things I could do and have art on the side.

But then, sophomore year, I met a teacher that was like, you're gonna love clay, and yes, you can do this.

And that just like, changed my world.

So that was like my introduction to clay where I was like, yep, love this.

So that kind of became my main.

My main medium until graduate school.

And then graduate school, I hit another aha moment at UMass Dartmouth where I went.

And my teacher was like, you're saying you're doing that over there just as like, kind of like an exercise, working with your hands, thinking, she's like, but you're making art.

And I was like, what?

So it was like this weird.

Like, I had never until that moment considered, like, my textile work artwork.

And then they started coming together and one thing led to another.

I was working with leaves and braiding them together, and that turned into, like, this interest in what if this was paper?

And learning how to process that and like a paper pulper.

So it's kind of like these, like, skills that I've always had just because of being a messy, mucky, sticky kid in the middle of the woods all the way to, like, impactful teachers being like, hey, you're doing this thing already.

Let's get into that a little more and dissect it.

I love.

I love what you're saying so much because there's some really key points you're making here that resonate with me for different reasons, because on one basic level, like armchair psychologist here, I could argue, or would argue that part of the reason why you fell in love with clay was because on sub unconscious level, it reminded you of your idyllic childhood.

And it was a way of Connecting to your youth and your childhood in an honest way that just was just completely undeniable.

And.

And you had to do it, right?

So, like, there's that, right?

But then this, this idea also, right, of the importance of teachers in our lives and mentors in our lives that help us see things that maybe we don't see and understand things that we don't understand.

And then there's this other dimension of the fucking art world, saying, like, no, no, no, that's craft.

That's not art.

You have to keep it over here because art is X.

And that's why.

Which is, of course, bullshit.

And then, then this.

And.

And I remember my.

A dear friend who's an artist, grew up here in la, first generation American, Mexican American, excellent soccer player, got a full ride of Loyola Mary Mount playing soccer.

But he majored in fine art because he had always been an artist.

But he had also been a graffiti artist here in Lagging, you know, the city.

And when he went to art school at Loyola Marymount, he was painting and doing his stuff and he kept his graffiti on the side.

And it was his art teacher who said, said, no, no, no, that is your art.

Like, that is your voice.

That is art.

You know, you need to do more of that that you're doing in your sketchbook at night.

You don't bring that into the classroom.

And that changed his life and his career.

And that's what happened to you as well.

For real.

Which feel like this is a great time to plug in.

Like, this is why our education in our school systems is so important to fight for.

Yes.

But, yeah, all those things.

And I think because of that evolutionary, like, transformation that I've gone through from like, like, and it still kind of like blows me away that, like, oh, my gosh, I'm, like, doing all these things I learned as a kid, but I didn't give myself permission to do them and accept them as art because it didn't fall into, like, this high art realm until people brought that to my attention.

So, like, I feel like that transformation is why, like, the term, like, not real art really resonated with me.

Like when I started finding out about you folks and looking into what you're doing, and I was like, like, I really, like, I feel this.

So right on.

Now, that means a lot.

But that means a lot because the name, even the name not real art was very intentional and it was very.

And it's funny over the years because artists get.

Majority of artists that we talked to get the joke immediately.

They know it, they understand it and, and get, and.

But when I'll, When I've talked over the years, I've talked to serious, so called serious collectors or serious gallers or dealers, I go, I don't get it.

What do you mean?

Not Relard.

I deal with real art.

Like, yeah, yeah, you could, you clearly are not our target audience.

That's amazing.

Well, you know, it's, it's just that journey of finding your voice and I just, you know, I mean, you're, you're a product of your environment.

I mean, of course, when you were a kid, right, like, of course you didn't get the fact that the things you were doing with, with, with the trees and the leaves and the clay as a kid, you know, could become art.

Because the world wasn't telling you that.

Like, you know, right.

That was not the world or your environment, you know.

Well, and that kind of makes me think of, I forget who said it or where I read it, but the idea that like, art is human instinct, like kind of like the foundation of like human existence, like the form of expression, whether that's like cave paintings or like sign language or dance or whatever that is, like art is just like fundamentally such a human thing to want to engage with.

Well, it's creativity, right?

Like, it's creative expression, right?

Like, like arguably you mentioned the cave.

You, you mentioned the cave paintings.

I mean, arguably the, the, the, the, the human, human ancestor that figured out fire, practicing.

They were, you know, like developing a work and suddenly, you know, shit was on fire, you know, or, or the wheel, you know, how did we get the wheel?

I was a creative person trying to like shape something and realize, oh, wait a minute, I could roll this, wait, I could put four of them together and two of them together.

And you know, so artists are just natural, creative, you know, like creative people, right?

We're natural inventors, innovators.

And it is fundamental, for sure.

Yeah.

Which kind of makes me think even more of like, it's even weirder.

Like, it just seems even stranger to me that like that's being removed from like education systems because that's something that everyone can engage with and there is no right or wrong because it is like, you know, the goal is to be true to you, true to yourself.

So.

Yeah, just like the importance of it.

Well, it's, it's a, this is a, this is a whole, a whole podcast in itself.

Just this idea of the dynamic that we've set up between creativity and capital, right?

Because we've created, we've created, we've created a society where the golden rule, the person with the goal makes the rules, but the person with the goal can't do jack without the creative person who can help them be a.

What is a force multiplier.

Right.

That's.

And that's what artists do, right?

Like, or creative people do.

You, you, you, you.

You're given a problem, you know, you solve it, you innovate.

And then the capitalists that gave you the money to have the time and, you know, to figure that out and whatever, then they're able to then, you know, take it to market and make a ton of money.

But it's.

Creativity is so fundamental.

These things are equal.

You know what I mean?

Well, they're at least equal.

If not, you know, I'm biased, obviously, towards creativity.

But the society we're creating is, is, is.

Is discounting creativity almost intentionally, and yet we know how fundamental it is.

I mean, to your point, the existential crises that our species is facing can only be solved with creativity.

Right.

And yet we're defunding those.

That aspect of academia and education, and we're just, you know, shooting ourselves in the foot in the process.

So it, it's just dumbfounding, you know, how, you know, we, we don't see that connection and don't value it.

Yeah.

Even though it seems to be, like, right there, it feels so obvious, like.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

And, you know, by the way, like, it's.

It, you know, let's, I think, let's clarify.

Right.

I think you and I are, where we're speaking big.

I'm, you know, at least I am talking about, you know, you know, you know, the species.

So on it.

So.

Sure.

But American culture is very part, Part of our commentary here.

Right.

Part of what we're talking about is about American culture and society because other cultures, you know, have different values and different, you know, issues and challenges.

Right.

But.

Right.

And so to the extent that, that our culture, you know, is just, I don't know, hypocritical seeming at least, you know, around some of these issues.

I mean, I, I've said the story a million times, and maybe you've heard me even say it on the other podcast, but, you know, Gordon McKenzie wrote a, wrote a book.

Gordon was the chief creative officer of Hallmark Cards, and he wrote a book called Orbiting the Giant Hairball.

Do you know it?

No, I don't.

Okay.

Orbiting the Giant Hairball.

It's not that big.

It's a little book.

And, and it's wonderful.

And it's, it's essentially about, you know, how do you maintain.

Because he worked for such a.

He was an artist, right?

But he worked for this corporate.

In.

In this corporate environment.

And so orbiting the giant hairball is sort of about how do you maintain your artistic integrity, Right.

When you work for the man.

Right.

And.

And he tells this really poignant story about how he would go to talk to school kids, you know, in his community, as a way of giving back and, you know, talk about art and creativity.

And he always started his talks with the same question.

And the question was, who here is an artist?

And in kindergarten, every kid raised their hand, right?

And in first grade, you know, half the class raised their hand, right?

And then he said by third grade or so, there'd be like one kid in the back, you know, I'm an, I'm an artist, you know, and what the hell are we doing?

It's an eight.

Like, like, it just.

Yeah, it's really troubling.

It's super troubling, for sure.

I've had a similar experience this past summer.

I was working at the Holter Museum of Art for a little bit and we did like this career day event thing.

So, like, all the school districts in Helena, like, they came in to the museum and they were able to, like, at the museum, talk to different artists that we set up everywhere.

From like, I think we brought in like a musician.

I was the ceramic artist.

We had a painter.

And you know, they went to like, different sites.

So like, they went to a construction site in Helena, that sort of thing too.

But that was kind of how I started off with each group is like, who's an artist?

And they would raise their hands and who wants to be an artist when you grow up?

And just like, really encouraging them and being like, like, you're gonna hear a lot of naysay.

And I was like, don't listen to it.

Like, follow your heart.

And it is possible.

It's okay.

Yeah, it's a little scary.

Yeah, it can be hard sometimes, but, like, it's pretty great.

Like.

Yeah.

And just trying to like, really, like, foster the idea that, like, it can be done in like, a younger generation too.

Like giving them support.

Like, maybe like my generation, your generation, like everyone's generation before that didn't receive.

Yeah.

Well.

But it, it's, it's, it's such a, such an interesting topic because, I mean, it's like, it, it's.

It's giving people permission, right, to, to creatively express themselves and, and, and it's part of a well balanced diet.

You know, like it's not a binary thing.

You know, it's not like I'm an artist or I'm not.

I'm only an artist if I make art to earn a living.

Right.

It's like capital A versus it's like, you know, people ask me, you know, Scott, oh, you know, you do all this stuff in art and you know, you must be an artist.

I'm like, well, you know, artists with the lowercase A but maybe not artists with a capital A because I'm not earning my living with art.

But like most people have a very binary or very kind of reductive view of like, well, I'm an artist or I'm not an artist, but in fact, you know, we should empower people and give people the permission to.

Right.

To just express themselves creatively or be creative and go into the, you know, garage and tinker or whatever the case might be.

Right.

And it's just part of, of a full, healthy quality of life.

Agreed.

Yeah, and that's a really good point.

Yeah.

A lot of people associate like success with money or like title.

Like otherwise it's like considered a hobby or not as valid.

Yeah.

So I going back to the idea of like validation too.

Well, you know, it's like, yeah, I mean I, you know, I was born in Gary, Indiana.

I was, I was born in the same hospital as Michael Jackson which is why I danced so, so well and you know, blue collar, working class community, first college educated kid in my family and but we kind of, we were a very musical family and my sister who's five years younger was clearly a musical prodigy and into the, to this day is a professional singer and musician.

My so called older brother was also a music prodig and became a professional musician.

And I was in the middle, so to speak.

And I played alto saxophone, I studied jazz and classical music at a very high level.

I won some, you know, really wonderful accolades.

But I worked so hard for my accomplishments and there was this narrative around, well, clearly you're not a natural.

And so you're probably, you're either going to, as a musician, you're either going to be.

Have to.

If you're going to be, you're either going to be a performer, like a professional performer or you're going to be a teacher.

Like those are like the only two options, right?

Wow.

No, Nobody.

Nobody.

And it was implied.

I mean, you know, like some of it was overt.

You know, it was like, oh yeah, well you can teach or you can perform, but like there's no middle ground.

Nobody said, oh yeah, no, you could just play at the corner pub for fun in the local band on the weekends, you know, just to, you know, be creative and express yourself.

No one said that was a.

Never an option, you know, and, and I think what we're talking about, right, is it just this different enlightened understanding that it's a spectrum again.

That spectrum.

Right.

It's non binary for sure.

Yeah.

And also, who says you have to be like good at something to like consider yourself as a part of.

Apparently I do.

I tell you what though, I know, I know, I know who on those on this call, on this podcast right now, I know who's good at something and that's you.

You're very good making and man, you know, Danielle, I, you know, it's like I feel like we could talk for hours and I, and I just, I love this and, and we've kind of been all over the place in some ways and I've done way more talking than I, that I'd like to do or typically do, but.

So I'm going to shut up for a minute.

I want to hear from you.

Like, like what, what's, you know, we got a new year coming up.

2025.

Yeah.

You know, what do you, where, what stories do you want to tell?

What do you want to say and where are you going to say it?

Yeah, well, I'm a person that takes on like, I just kind of grab each day by, by the reins and go for it.

So yeah, I feel like I'm a very ambitious person with a lot of, a lot of goals.

2025.

I'm looking forward to it.

It's looking to be a very busy and exciting year.

So I think my biggest thing coming up is in October I'm going to have a solo exhibition at the Holter Museum of Art.

Really Ginormous gallery.

This is like the biggest installation I've ever taken on.

So I want to say it's like probably about like the gallery space is about 60 foot deep, 40 foot wide and about 20 foot tall.

Really exciting and also intimidating challenge to be taking upon and also to be like, oh my gosh, I'm about to come into like that calendar year when it's like the final stretch.

So yeah, once again exciting and intimidating and you know, all the good things about being an artist just kind of this like big package of emotions.

Yeah.

And then I have a Couple of residencies coming up and a couple group shows.

And I think things that I'm looking forward to are especially with this, this solo exhibition coming up is having the opportunity to become like, extremely immersive within my installations.

I'm dying to like, play with different types of lighting to create, like, to see like, how shadows can also kind of play.

Thinking about like the idea of like, we do things in our lives and we don't always know what the results are going to be or how it impacts like, you know, kind of like the ripple effect.

We don't know how far that impact of whatever action we're partaking, like, thinking of shadows as an opportunity to kind of like, not just play with like the installation and the gesture and the emotion of the installation itself, but to also bring an extra conceptual layer and just trying to figure out too, like, yeah, what's next for, for my profession, like my professional career, like, where do I want that to go?

What places do I apply to next and what kind of challenges do I put on myself next?

I think it's like a really exciting place to be being able to like, ask all those questions to oneself.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

You have you, you.

I don't know, somehow some way, you've carved out a really nice life for yourself, it seems.

Thank you.

As an artist.

Right.

Like, is that like, you seem like you have a good balance of.

You're being fed in different ways, you're giving back in different ways.

You're, you're, you're energized, you know, you have a, you have a well balanced diet, I guess, in a way.

Yeah, I think so.

I think that, you know, a lot of hard work and also a lot of like thinking about like in my professional practices class when I was in school, like the idea of applying to things and giving yourself opportunities, but also being ready to accept opportunities that come your way unexpectedly.

So I think there's always like that kind of like flexibility with how I approach my lifestyle of like, you never know what's going to get thrown at you.

Life's a mess.

So it can be wonderful, it can be terrible, but it always seems to balance itself out too.

I've always known early on that like a desk job, like a complete desk job was not for me, like, I would just be a very miserable person.

And I think also, like, I've like very intentionally set this type of a lifestyle for myself knowing that like, like I've done like the 10 hour day in the studio for like years on end kind of thing and and as much as I love that I become very much a hermit, and that's not healthy, but also, like.

Right, I get that.

Yeah, yeah.

And I like being a hermit sometimes.

So, like, that's kind of the danger of it.

But also.

Oh, no, no.

But that.

Also, that.

That sort of was also about being mission driven.

Right.

Like, you know, being an artist isn't a choice, it's a calling.

And by the way, being a doctor, arguably is.

Is a calling too.

Like, you know, when you have.

And you're mission driven, whatever you do.

Right.

I mean, teachers are, you know, like, it's hard to walk away, Right.

And put the work down.

Right.

Because you're like, oh, no, no, no.

I have to do this very much.

And that's where, like, the other part of everything, like, knowing that, like, I feel very adamant about protecting the arts, wherever that is, so finding ways to do that within my life.

So, like, you know, I have, like, my professional practice as, like, an artist, and then I have.

Have executive director duties and kind of charging the way for Montana Clay, which is like an annual gathering that I coordinate every year.

And.

Yeah, just trying to, like, give back even.

Even, like, what I make and like, my practice, I consider that a way of kind of giving because I feel like there's such like, an educational component to it.

Have you done any work or residencies in or around western North Carolina?

No, I haven't.

I've been curious about that area, though.

Well, you know, Asheville specifically.

Right.

In western North Carolina, generally, you know, you.

Penland School of Craft, you know, Black Mountain College, you know, there's this incredible tradition, right.

Of.

Of craft there in that area.

And we've done some work that.

We have a podcast called Artsville usa, where we, you know, like to talk to.

We.

We say we celebrate American contemporary arts and crafts from Asheville and beyond.

But that western North Carolina area, of course, was recently decimated by.

To talk about environmental issues.

Right.

For sure.

Hurricane Helene.

And, you know, I think it's.

It was singular event on multiple levels.

$58 billion in damage, many dead, and 600 artists by some counts, displaced at once.

And I think that.

I don't know that that's ever happened.

I mean, I think, you know, how, you know, 600 artists displaced with one event like that.

Historic, I think.

You know, anyway, I just.

I just asked because I.

I think you would love it.

But.

But.

But I think this.

The.

The.

It'd be interesting for you to look at doing a cultural exchange kind of a thing as well, bringing Artists to.

To Montana to work with you from there as well.

But anyway, that's it.

Tell me about Montana Clay, the gathering.

That's what got me thinking about it.

So it's a gathering, like an interstate thing or.

Or is it a national thing?

It's just interstate.

So, yeah, we'll call it like a loose organization, but basically it's something that all the ceramic artists can in the state can join because Montana is like, it's very, like, prominent in the ceramic art.

So.

Yeah.

And then also Montana is such a rural state, so 46 out of our 56 counties in Montana are considered frontier territory.

So it can be really hard to, like, keep in touch with one another and especially, like, the world of ceramics.

Like, like, there's so much equipment, there's a lot of cost.

There's like.

Or during the pandemic, it was impossible to get certain materials.

So it turns into a way of, like, helping people maintain connectivity and networking with those in the state.

So to kind of facilitate that, I organize an annual gathering.

So we meet once a year, summertime, fall time, kind of whatever works for, like, a large group of people.

And we have it in different cities throughout Montana so that it's not such a heavy travel burden for some people every single time, just because Montana is so fast.

So I try to make it so that it's accessible to all.

Kind of like a rotation throughout and then as like, another thing to add to this.

Just kind of like a small group of people.

They met at her kitchen table, and then it kept growing, and then she got to the point she was too busy to, like, keep it up, but wanted to, like, like, see it continue.

So she kind of handed the reins over to me.

So to kind of add to that too, I've started adding, like, professional development opportunities through the organization just because I think it's ridiculous that you have to subscribe to an academic curriculum a lot of times to get these professional development, like, opportunities and trainings as an artist.

I think that should just be general knowledge and people need to stop gatekeeping that.

So, like, this past year, we had a speaker from the Montana Arts Council come and talk about grant writing and specifics of that and how to do it and, you know, how to figure out, like, what kind of grant works for you as an individual.

We also had a couple of my friends from Workroom Montana.

They have, like, it's like their own, like, little community art center, and then they also own Flex Inspects grog.

So they have like two small businesses.

I had them talk about like how to start your own business and kind of like the intentionality behind it and things to like be aware of.

Just because like so many people, like, you know, as a self employed business, a lot of times like that first year is like the end of so many little startups.

So how do we give people, how do we support others in a way that they can be successful at achieving their goals and dreams?

Yeah.

And then we also do like a little cup swap to kind of get to know everyone's work.

So we have like a little cup swap or a little nugget swap as I call it sometimes because I'm like, what is that?

What is a cup swap or a nugget swap?

So basically I've never heard that phrase before.

Okay, so are you familiar with like print printmaking exchanges?

Well, I think I am, but.

But, but, but let's, let's just assume.

I.

Let's, let's not.

Yeah, you tell me.

I want to hear it from you.

You.

So basically it's very common for ceramic artists to make cups.

A lot of times that's like our bread and butter or cups.

Cups, as in drinking cups.

Okay, okay, I'm with you.

Got it, got it.

Okay.

Yep, yep.

Or a lot of times if you don't make vessels or like utilitarian objects, like you'll make like maquettes or something smaller, like something sculptural.

Sure.

So basically, like with like this nugget swap, I encourage people to bring something 4 inches or under and $80 of value or under just to make sure that like the heavy rollers aren't like making.

Right.

People were just starting to pave their way.

Totally.

Yeah, totally.

I love, I make everyone feel nice.

And yeah, we just kind of wrap them up and we pull numbers and we grab pieces and it's a great way to like kind of introduce ourselves.

Totally get it.

And introduce our work.

It's kind of a nice little talking point.

Yeah.

So it's a really great group that just kind of reconnects everyone annually.

It can help.

Like, Montana once again is so huge.

Like, it makes it easier to reach out and be like, hey, is there anyone going from like Helena to Missoula?

Because I have a piece that needs to get to this auction or this show.

Great.

Could I put this in your car and give you a couple dollars for gas?

Is there anyone going to this location?

So it can help also with like getting your work to places just having that Connectivity and kind of going back to like getting to know your neighbors well.

So do you.

Do you feel like Montana sees and hears its artist community and supports them, or is it a struggle?

Oh, I think Montana is a very interesting terrain for that.

I feel like one of the reasons that I stay in Montana is not only like, its natural beauty and like, like the.

The wonder of the natural world just everywhere, all the time.

But the arts community is really, really amazing.

I feel like they're.

There are just artists everywhere here.

And although it's not like New York City where it's like a tight little knit bubble and like heavy competition and stuff, it's like everyone knows everyone and like we share opportunities with one another.

So like, there's like a lot of like, kind of.

Yeah.

Support from like your peers and colleagues, which I really enjoy.

There's the Montana Arts Council that like, you can get like grants for nonprofits.

You can get like a little grant.

Strategic investment grant as an individual artist, but talking with other people, like other directors of our organizations.

While Montana is so, like very dominated by the arts, it's not funded very well.

Like, it's a funding wasteland just because of our population.

We have such like a small population that like the NEA and stuff that like funds those state grants and government grants.

They don't allot as much to Montana as say, like New York or I mean, anywhere else, really.

Well, the.

The part of.

The reason I was.

I was asking.

Obviously every state is different, of course, but one of our other grant winners, I believe it was Allison Hiltner, who's in Minnesota.

We.

She and I were talking about this issue and I'd asked her about why she was in Minnesota because I was it.

She said something about.

I don't know.

She said she was.

She hates the.

She hates cold weather.

I said, why are you in Minnesota if you're in cold weather?

Something like this.

And.

And.

And she said, well, the.

The state supports artists.

She's like, I really feel supported here, you know, and that was lovely to hear.

And so every state is different and I just.

And you've been in Montana how long now?

So that's when I first moved here and then kind of one away for school or residency here or there.

So.

Yeah.

Home based on.

Right.

But you also have this.

I mean, being in a.

In a leadership role.

Right.

I mean, on staff.

Right.

As well.

Like, that is a nice income.

Well, I hope it's a nice income, but it gives you income.

Right.

To.

To stay there and.

And make Work.

And, you know, so it, again, it sort of gets back to that quality of life thing maybe.

But again, every state is different and one might assume, right, because, you know, we're sometimes, I don't know, judgmental.

You might think a conservative state like Montana would.

Would not support the arts or the artists or that there wouldn't be a community of artists there, when in fact there's a.

Sounds like there's a robust and very healthy community of artists there, which says a lot.

It is.

And kind of like what we were talking about earlier, the idea of people being like, well, I don't make money off my art.

Like, little things like that.

It can be hard to pull the artist out of their, like, workspaces and be like, like, you are valid.

You're amazing.

So I feel like there's like a little bit of, like, an underground art scene too, of like, the people that are artists, but they don't want to label themselves as such.

Yeah, it's.

It's interesting.

Like, we, yeah, we are funding wasteland, but like, on the same level, like, artists support artists.

The ceramics community is very strong within Montana.

And then, like, even though the arts council only has, like, a limited amount of funding to give to individual artists, they've started doing like, these, like, kind of mini class workshop sessions, kind of professional development opportunities for artists.

So it's funny, like, even though, like, the finances aren't there, there's like, people are stepping up to the plate and trying to, like, creative once again, creative problem solving at its best.

And what are ways that we can.

Can support one another in ways, even if it's not monetary?

Right.

Yeah.

Well, and then, of course, like you said, I mean, you, you, you sort of live in this spectacular place of natural beauty.

Right?

And.

And so many artists.

And I mean, Joshua Tree, you know, we have the, the Death Valley Desert, Joshua Tree out here in Southern California.

And of course it's, you know, it's hot as hell and stark and dry, but it's incredibly beautiful and land is cheap and is an incredible community of artists there.

Right.

Because, you know, that's.

It's not.

It's very common, right, for artists to sort of find those, find those special places and, and, and make something, you know, amazing out of it.

Right.

And then while that's, you know, gentrification.

Yes, it's.

It's.

Right.

I'll never forget that.

You know, I was in college in Chicago, you know, grew up in the Midwest, around Chicago, but I ended up, like, living downtown for a long time and And I was at the Irish pub that I lived above.

I used to live in a formal brothel above an Irish pub.

And I was in the pub and I was talking to this woman, June, who's artist, who also lived in our building.

She said to me, she was, you know, what was I, like 21 or 20?

I guess I was 20, 21, it doesn't matter.

Anyway, she.

But she was twice my age or whatever.

And she said, she says, well, you know how gentrification starts, don't you, Scott?

And I was like, well, I don't know.

Maybe I don't.

You tell me.

It's like she's like, artists.

And I was like, what?

And she says, well, you know, we move into a plighted part of town because it's all we can afford.

You know, we.

We start making our art.

A gallery opens up, a cool coffee shop and bookstore, used vintage shop opens up, an underground club and bar and gay bar or whatever opens up, up.

And next thing you know, it's the coolest part in town.

Place in town.

And people start coming and so comes the money and the development and rents go up and we have to move.

And we do it again.

And we do it again.

That would actually be a really interesting study to like research into, because that kind of makes me think of like, I was on like this grant panel as like a juror and looking through a lot of the applications.

A lot of them were people looking to fund arts in very derelict situations.

So they were like, yeah, we want to like do murals and like revitalize this part of town.

We want to do like, I don't know, tile work, like, you know, like ceramic tile works and this and that.

But it was all to like the idea of taking like these like less desirable parts of a city and turning it into something.

Yeah.

Very vibrant with life.

Yeah.

Well, you know, one of the more modern examples of that is the Wynwood district in Miami.

You know, of course, it's Art Week and Art Basel Miami right now.

Right.

So much stuff going on there and it's all over social or whatever, but.

But that's exactly what Mr.

Goldman did in the Wynwood district, right?

I mean, he had, you know, he owned all those buildings.

It was a.

The murder rate was off the charts, crime was off the charts.

And he just started inviting artists to come paint murals and that's it, you know.

And of course, you know, I don't think he paid a lot of those artists, which is a whole nother issue, you know, and that's Interesting, right?

That's an interesting topic, right?

About the exploitation of artists or the so called exploitation of artists because, you know, artists have to learn how to negotiate, right?

They have to understand their value, understand their currency, understand that they are unique in the world and have a very valuable gift and product service to offer.

And it's not just privilege to be asked, right?

You got rent to pay, you got bills to pay, you know, and, and, and, and so there again is that sort of tension between creative and capital and artists allowing themselves to be exploited.

It's.

Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a.

How do you, I mean, you must bump into this a lot.