Confidence is something that comes up in so many of our conversations with leaders and aspiring leaders. In this episode we explore what confidence means in relation to leadership – both in terms of your own leadership and how you create confidence for others.

In this episode we share our own views, thoughts and experiences:

• 05:18 – confidence is subjective
• 10:30 – loud doesn’t equal confident
• 13:28 – don’t assume confidence means you don’t need support
• 15:15 – who is creating the confidence gap?
• 21:12 – developing your confidence
• 28:36 – practical things to support you
• 29:09 – How to – lead with confidence

As always, we share our top takeaways. We want you to be curious and explore that feedback in relation to your confidence, seek out the evidence and reflect on what the issues might be in terms of your confidence. Don’t take feedback, yours or anyone else’s at face value – put the work in to develop your confidence.

In this episode we reference The Confidence Code by Katty Kay and Claire Shipman.

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So maybe it's, maybe it's just another word that goes into

our banish box of things we don't like using in leadership

The banish box.

Yeah.

Hello and welcome back to How to Take the Lead.

If you are new to the show, hit the Follow button so you don't miss future episodes.

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Um, we are also now on YouTube, so if you're watching us there, hello.

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chance of YouTube doing its thing and pushing it out, algorithm, all of that.

I don't quite understand it.

Um, but if you could subscribe, that would be great.

Um, also, I forgot last time in my, my role as chair was really poor.

I didn't tell you about our socials.

So we're on Instagram, we're on Twitter.

So get involved in the conversations over there.

That would be great.

Is there anything else on our little checklist of stuff

we need to say Carrie-Ann?

No, I think that's probably about it.

People can, yeah, people can join our community if they head over to

the website, um, they can subscribe.

We promise not to spam you.

We just send you good stuff as and when.

Um, so yeah, I think that's everything.

Lots of ways now for people to engage with us, which is very exciting.

it's good.

Whereas, you know, part of the mission, isn't it,

it's 2023 is the year of the mission, isn't it?

We are gonna make things happen, not just the talking.

We're gonna do some doing.

Yes, exactly.

So how are you feeling today?

I'm, feeling alright today actually.

I feel like, oh wait, why do I always go to weather?

I was just about to say, I feel like the weather is perked up a little bit.

The sun has been shining.

The days feel a smid longer, so yeah.

All happy here.

How are you?

We're going to have to start calling you Carrie-Ann Fish.

Is that, is that, is that who I'm thinking?

Michael

Yeah.

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann Fish.

Do a little mini-series of, uh, weather updates.

You know this, there might be another career in you yet..

Maybe this is your, um, you know, inner feeling.

You really want to become a meteorologist

Maybe I want

meteorologist

yeah, maybe I want it to be a weather person.

I've got plenty of years left in me before retirement.

Who knows?

So let's get to the meat of today's conversation.

And today I want to tackle a word that so many people use when they think about

their leadership and their development.

Well, they use it in life too.

Um, and that's the word, confidence.

Um, I'd say like 95% of the discussions I'm having with clients at the moment

is around the notion of confidence and how it's impacting them at work.

Usually when people talk about confidence, I find it's from the perspective of

not having it, but it'll be interesting to get your thoughts on this.

I think it's some of the biggest leadership issues can stem from people

having too much confidence, so I always find that an interesting dynamic.

And the other thing I notice is that the word confident can be so subjective and

absolutely will mean something different to me than it means to you, for example.

Um, I did my little Google

I love it when you do a Google.

I love a little Google.

And the Google definition of confidence was the feeling or belief

that one can have faith in or rely on someone or something, which

I thought was quite interesting.

And when I was reading up about different things around

confidence, words that people kept talking about was assertiveness,

self-confidence, speaking up.

So it shows that there's this breadth of difference in what.

Confidence means, and I'm sure we'll get into it at some point, but you

know the biases that also play in around what it means to be confident.

So confidence in women is definitely perceived as something very different

as confidence in men and the negative con connotations of a confident woman

versus a confident man, particularly when it comes to leadership, I

think it's really interesting.

Um, and you know, I've mentioned this in, in previous series, and actually it's

an in our leadership, um, reading list.

If you haven't got a copy of that, you can go to our website,

howtotakethelead.com, and get your copy.

The Confidence Code by Kitty K and Claire Shipman, which I think is a really,

really brilliant book at breaking down this notion of confidence and, and

confidence from a female perspective.

Um, so for all that preamble, uh, i, I kinda wanna explore what

confidence means to you because I do think it is so subjective.

Oh, absolutely.

And just before I go onto that bit of the conversation, it's really

interesting, isn't it, that you've said how many of your clients are talking

about confidence and being confidence in confident in that leadership space?

And, uh, in the Thrive program, I run a session that is about, uh, confidence

and growing your confidence for, uh, communications leaders and inspiring comms

leaders and it was really interesting because we've got to program four, um, and

we've had a conversation about shifting the notion away from being confident

to having self-belief, and I just found that was quite interesting and it, it

might be about the profession again.

Um, you know, the delegates that come in through my Thrive program are all female.

Um, but I just dunno if people are now wanting to kind, you know, people

are saying I'm a confident person.

It's not that I don't have confidence, it's just that there are occasions

in the workplace where my self-belief is knocked and then that makes

me operate in a different way.

So I just think it is very interesting, isn't it, what you've said about

how people perceive confidence.

But, um, for me personally, so that's the, the question that you asked, sorry,

having digressed slightly, um, it for me, being confident or demonstrating

confidence personally is all about how I feel I'm showing up in the workplace.

It's about, um, feeling able to express my professional opinion, um, and

finding a way for me to have a voice in the room or in the conversation,

whatever that might look like.

It's not always a, a physical speaking voice, but like how

am I, um, showing up, having a.

Um, expressing what I feel is important about any given topic.

There's something for me in that though about not feeling judged.

So times possibly when I have felt judged for having my professional

opinion, that probably has made me feel less confident, um, to then

continue to express my opinion.

But definitely as a leader, there's also something for me around confidence

showing up as being able to deal with difficult things, so not shying away

from challenging conversations or managing difficult issues because I'm

worried about the consequence of that.

It's like there will be a consequence and it could be any number of things,

but I'm confident enough in myself to know that the right thing to

do, um, is to address the issue.

So that was kind of my summary.

I'm sure there's more in there if we unpacked it, but that could probably

be a whole therapy session on a couch.

Well, may, maybe that's what this episode's gonna be.

Who knows.

It will be.

Maybe it will be.

How about you, Lee?

What does it mean for you..

So I think for me, confidence is that feeling of being able to represent

yourself, your work, your decision making.

I think rather than, um, maybe some of the other things that we've talked,

it's that showing up that you've, you've said, which is important.

I think from a leadership perspective, the role of leaders is to gain confidence

of others so that an outcome is achieved.

So for me, that's like, how do you build trust?

And I think that's what I look in the word confidence when I look at it from

a, from a leadership perspective though.

Yeah, I think that trust thing is really important, and I'm sure we'll

talk about it more as the conversation goes on, but there is something

about trust on all of those levels.

So how are you building trust?

How are you building a culture where people feel.

that they are trusted to make decisions.

They're empowered to find solutions that they feel, I know we talk about this a

lot, but they feel that that safety of being able to express themselves because

actually if you don't feel safe or you have fear of a negative consequence, then

I think even if you're a very confident person, you can decide not to show up in

a space because it's, it's easier or it's has less potential negative impact on.

Yeah.

So one of my big issues and we're just gonna get in there right at the beginning

because I don't, I don't wanna pussy foot around this one , but it's when

leaders are giving feedback to someone, and I've had this in my career and I've

talked about it before on, on the show, um, and they say, you need to speak up

more, you need to be more confident.

And the two almost go hand in hand as a piece of feedback that you get.

And it's like confidence equals having a voice, being loud, being heard,

and possibly maybe being extrovert.

Um, and for me, I've never had a problem with confidence in my

career in the broadest sense.

I know my abilities, I know what I'm good at.

I was confident of the advice and guidance I was giving people.

I was confident when I needed to know more.

Cause I'm not saying that I had all the answers, um, but I was confident

in my role and in my profession.

But I was quiet.

and I've said this a lot, I didn't, and I don't speak for speaking sake.

I didn't feel my voice had to be the loudest one.

In fact, I think people listened to me more because I spoke less than others.

Um, and I, I remember this was probably about 18 months ago when I was first

starting my business and I posted something on LinkedIn about being quiet,

and someone who I'd worked with early on in my career replied and said, oh

yes, they remember me being shy and unconfident and it really got my back up

because yes, they might have been right about the shy bit because especially

around people, I don't know, I do tend to be more reserved, but that doesn't

mean I lacked confidence and I find it fascinating that so many of us perpetuate

that myth of confidence equals loud.

And actually I think it can be doing some real damage to people who are

being pushed against their type, so to, you know, to become something else.

And it's another reason, an example, why I think you know, the concept of imposter

syndrome is a bit of a fallacy because it's biases like that that creates doubt

in individuals, and it's a bit like you've just said with the people that

you are working with on your program.

It can be things that happen external to your environment that

that push a perception on how you should be that creates that

self-doubt in what you are doing.

and that's where I think the danger of this concept of, of confidence

really plays into the workplace.

So I'd be interested on your views on that after I had my little rant.

So, so so I guess it's interesting, isn't it, because again,

we've talked about this a lot on the show, so I'm, I'm more naturally

extroverted and I would say my preference is, is as an extrovert.

But I think sometimes in the same way that you're saying, there's this assumption

that people who have more introverted tendencies are shy and not confident.

And actually that's not true.

I mean, some people might be, but, um, you know, I, I don't think that's true.

I also think sometimes as an extrovert, there are the same kind of myths actually.

So, uh, in my own experience and working with other people who are also

extroverted, sometimes that loudness and how you are showing up that is potentially

perceived to be confident, perhaps sometimes arrogant, perhaps sometimes, um,

just being a bit too much and not letting other people have the space is actually

a bit of a cover for the times when you are feeling least confident because it's

almost like putting up a shield or there's a bit of a facade that you keep up.

And it's like, actually, if I'm the person who, you know, cracks the jokes, is the

person that's bringing everyone together and, you know, being really bubbly and,

and maybe a bit overconfident in the room, I'm probably being more like that when

I'm feeling least confident in myself.

So that's quite interesting for me in terms of a, a bit of a dynamic to explore.

And then the other thing that I've personally found is that sometimes

it's assumed that because you are a confident person that you

don't need support for things.

So particularly more in relationships where, you know, I've needed

support from my line manager for example, even as a senior leader,

you need that support, don't you?

Sometimes feedback you know, to be able to be supportive because yes, you can

be confident, but that doesn't mean that you feel like you know everything.

There's always still more to learn, but often I think if you are perceived as

a really confident person, it's almost like, well you don't, you don't need

that support cuz you know what you're doing because you are really super

confident and I've often sometimes found conversations where I'm trying to express,

where maybe I do feel like I need to learn more or need more experience of

something, sometimes get a bit overlooked and brushed off a bit because it's like,

yeah, but you are really confident and it's like, hmm, what's that got to do

with like how I feel about a specific topic or a specific area of my work?

So yeah, that was my original thoughts that came out as you were

talking from my perspective of being more extroverted in that.

It's interesting, so, so what struck me as you were talking was this

sense of, you know, if there are these perceptions of how confident people

show up or extroverted people show up and it's not necessarily the case.

And then there's perceptions of introverted people and how they

are unconfident and how they show up and that isn't the case.

Like who is it then that's creating this, this kind of tension

around showing up with confidence.

Because if you are an extrovert telling someone to be more confident,

but you are not feeling confident yourself, why would you be doing that?

And if you are an introvert or, or someone who's deemed to be seeming unconfident.

Why?

Why aren't you challenging it?

I, I just found that quite like, where's it coming from?

I don't know if you're expecting me to have the answer.

Lee , you said that as if I was gonna throw in some golden

nugget of an answer, then.

But you, but you raise a good point, don't you?

And I, I guess it's back to that point as well around how confident people

feel and how with how much confidence people show up is so much influenced by

those external factors that we started to talk about rather than maybe actually

what we know about ourselves and what we're good at and where we're operating.

Do you know?

So there is something about that judgment of others.

I think.

Kind of ma having an impact on how confident a another person might feel.

And there's something about how do we shift and change that culture then to

have conversations across the board about it's okay not to know everything.

It's okay, you know, when we talk about the imposter syndrome and I use the bunny

ears, um, when I say it because I know we've had a lot of debate about, you know,

is that the right term to use for some of the things that show up as part of that.

There's just something for me about like, you know, maybe everybody

is just sometimes feeling a bit like they're not on their A game.

You know, somebody's made a judgment about them, that's knocked their self-belief,

so therefore they don't feel as valued or they don't feel like what they're doing

is as important or as good as it can be.

And if that happens to everybody, whether you are an introvert,

extrovert, or anything in between, like why can't we create a culture

where it's a ok to talk about, you know, not being confident, failing,

learning, developing rather than it...

I feel like it's coming from a sort of like performance based judgmenty type

space that it's like, you must be like this to be able to be good at something.

But like you say, he determined that and when and why haven't we shifted

away from that type of conversation?

So I'm really interested then to, to ask you as someone who's perhaps

potentially perceived as being a confident person, obviously there's that

vulnerability of you maybe not always feeling confident, but feeling like

you've got to show up in a certain way.

Have you felt confident to challenge that misconception of you?

Yes, yes.

But probably only as I've been in my career for longer, not in the early

days, more so probably in the last few years I've been, I've felt more able to

have that conversation with people and I think I've been more aware of when

I can see people who seem to be acting maybe sometimes like I have done when

there is that bit of a facade and that kind of, oh, they're put not putting on

a brave do, but do you know what I mean?

Like just bigging things up a bit to almost cover up for the fact

that actually I don't really feel like I know what I'm doing here,

but I don't feel like I can say it.

So I, I have felt able to, and I hope in a compassionate way have some of those

conversations from the point of view that like, I've noticed this and actually

it's something that I've experienced and that I've done before and is there

something going on here that you need support with or that I can help with?

So more so now, definitely not early on in my career.

I think the other thing is that actually work, working and collaborating with

you, Lee, I think has helped me to try to be more aware of when people's

personality types or preferences are not like mine, how can I be supportive of

them showing up how they might want to.

Um, so not just assuming that because people are quiet, they haven't got

something to say, like what other options are there for them to contribute their

expertise and their ideas into the space.

So I do also think with time and probably more so over the last few years

of working with you, because we are quite, quite opposites in that sense,

that I have made a conscious effort to learn more about how I can help people

who might not have my preference to, to show up and potentially operate

with more confidence, but I like you.

I'm not sure that is the right term.

It's more about having this space and opportunity to feel like you can share.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So maybe it's, maybe it's just another word that goes into our banish box of

things we don't like using in leadership

The banish box.

Yeah.

I love it.

May maybe we need to physically create the banish box, like we we're

not talking about this anymore.

so we've got confidence and imposter syndrome.

What else have we got?

Uh, Strat Well, strategy for strategy's sake.

I think when people say you've got to be more strategic,

that can go, that can do one

Hello.

like our personal room 1 0 1

yeah, there's a Banish Box bonus episode coming up I reckon

Sorry, we digress

No.

So, so we've, we've kind of broken down the concept and construct of confidence.

I think we've opened a whole can of worms around who is setting this?

Because if both parties, and obviously we are talking very general terms because

there will be people who do genuinely feel super confident and people who

genuinely feel unconfident and we are not belittling or dismissing those

feelings, but in the general sense.

So yeah, whole can of worms that I think we're gonna have to park cuz

we haven't got an answer for that.

Or enough time in this episode,

but let's get a little bit practical now.

So many of the coaching conversations that I have revolve around leaders saying

that they need to show more confidence.

So assuming that that's true, even if it's someone's limiting belief or some self

talk they've got for themselves, assuming that they do need to show up with more

confidence, what can you do about it?

So there are a few things that come to mind for me and actually, um, I

mentioned that we talk a lot about this on Thrive and there's a whole session around

this where actually we spend some time together and solo uh, thinking about the

situations, and we're gonna use the word confident cuz that's what what we've,

what we've deem this episode is about, even if we wanna find another word for it.

But spend some time thinking about the situations in the workplace,

in your leadership role where you do feel you are most confident?

Like when are the times that I feel like yes, I'm totally smashing it and

I feel like I'm, you know, talking with authority people are, you know, really

taken on board, like my suggestions, whatever it is, identify those areas

and also spend a bit of time identifying where you feel the least confident and

are there certain situations where you are like, that's when I just feel like

I wanna keep my head down when I'm not showing up, when I feel that self-doubt,

when my self-belief is really low.

And when you've done that, try to maybe identify any themes that are coming

up, um, through that reflective piece.

And therefore whether there are any opportunities for you to create

more of the conditions you need to feel more confident more often.

And that might be stuff that you can do yourself.

It might be support that you need from other people.

But just by having that opportunity to reflect, I think it can help

you, um, to kind of work out when, and hopefully why you have those

moments of like peak confidence and low confidence and whether there is

anything you can do to nudge those lower confidence moments up more towards

where you're feeling more confident.

I said confident a lot in that bit.

Sorry.

Yeah.

I'll stop now and ask you what you think.

I.

I have got some more thoughts, but I wanna hear what you think Lee, cuz I'm sure

some of them might, might be similar.

Well, well, I, I like your, the, the kind of exercise that you can do, and I

do similar with, with my clients around getting that clarity, asking, you know,

what would a more confident you look like?

What would they sound like?

How would they be different in the actions and the decisions they you know, you took,

um, because I do think that self-awareness is, is super important and identifying

the gap you are, you are trying to close.

Um, but I also think there's, there's for me, something around,

often this comes up as an issue because of some kind of feedback

that you've had from someone else.

So it's important that you don't just take that and run with it without

understanding and contextualizing, you know, our conversation already

has shown how different people think differently about confidence.

So your interpretation could be very different to the person who's feeding

that back to you and what they had in mind they want you to do differently.

So I think you need to ask them to be a bit more specific.

Give examples, ask the question, you know, what would that look

like in in practice if I was to be more showing up more confidently?

And then you need to do that reflection piece, which is.

is this a valid piece of feedback?

Is it a change that I'm willing to make?

Does it fit with my values, with my personality and the way I want to work?

And then, then you can make some decisions around what you, you know,

do you want to do anything about it?

Or are you going to perhaps close the loop and p politely feedback that

actually this is how you, you are gonna approach that issue instead.

I love that and I'm glad you mentioned the feedback thing, cuz that was

the other, uh, element of what I wanted to talk about around that, like evidence.

No, no, no, no.

It's good.

Like around that evidence and it, and it works both ways.

So it's like if you've got that feedback, like how do you validate it or not and

understand it, and actually if people are prepared to give you that feedback,

then in my humble opinion, they should also be prepared to expand on that

and give you some concrete examples.

And it's amazing how many people can't.

Yeah, and maybe that's just because the way you operate is different

to the way they operate and they just can't get their heads around that

maybe that feedback isn't valid at all.

I also think when that kind of self-doubt element creeps in around

kind of how confident you feel, there is something, and I know you've had

to do this with me a couple of times, Lee, where it's just like, where's

your, where is your evidence of that?

And actually sometimes when you look, your evidence says the opposite,

which is, all your clients are feeding this back to you so I dunno why you

are not confident in thinking that you're doing a good job, for example.

So that that bit of validation and that like seeking out your evidence, I

think is really important because the evidence might be showing you something

very different how you feel inside.

And then the other bit around evidence for me is also about

demonstrating the value that you add.

And that might be where sometimes you don't feel confident enough to do

that in certain ways, but are there really practical things that you could

do that would help you to feel like you are demonstrating that value add

as a leader into your organization?

So is it about where you have certain conversations?

Who with?

Are you doing, you know, reports or updates on the really great things

that you are doing where you have a lot of confidence, but maybe you are not

getting the opportunity to share that?

So I think that evidence feedback piece feels like a really crucial part of,

of showing up with more confidence if that's what you feel like you need to do.

Yeah.

And I think there's um, also that self-reflection piece that you need to do

as an individual, which is to understand whether is confidence the issue or are

there other things that are at play that's maybe making you question your abilities?

So we talked a little bit earlier about some of the biases that

might play out from other people.

Um, , but also it could be the high standards that you've set

yourself and perhaps they're not realistic or achievable and you are

feeling like you are not performing because you're not achieving the,

the standards that you've set.

It might be that you are feeling micromanaged or you are micromanaging

other things, so that's creating a bit of a pressure block around an

issue and, and again, it goes back to that, that sense of, oh, am I

delivering if I'm not delivering, do I feel confident in what I'm doing?

But it could be what your starting point is.

And then there's absolutely that thing around other people's attitudes and

behaviors and understanding whether there is some kind of bias at play.

absolutely don't disagree with any of that lee

I think there's probably some really tangible things that people could do

as well if they do feel like they are confident you know, and I've done this

in, in my career where perhaps I, you know, I've said I don't necessarily

talk for talking sake in meetings and, um, I'm someone that's a bit of

a thinker and a ponderer and don't like necessarily be put on the spot.

So, you know, how did I show up confidently in work?

It was things like, How I prepared for meetings, reading the meeting papers,

maybe having some talking points, thinking through what questions I

could ask if I felt that they were of value and do do all the work.

It, it was a lot of work before I, I couldn't just go into a

meeting and wing it because that wasn't my comfortable style.

I didn't like being put on the spot.

that doesn't mean I wasn't confident in the stuff I was saying, but for me

to fully contribute to discussions I needed to have that space beforehand

to think, reflect on, you know, what's the outcome, what do I think

my role and contribution could be to, to this, whether that was a meeting

or whether that was something else.

When I work with, with leaders, um, often it can be, they can go into, I don't

know, board meetings or whatever, and they talk coherently or they go too into

too much detail and therefore people are questioning you do they know what

they're doing because they're not able to succinctly pull out the stuff that I

need for assurance purposes, for example.

And so just working on, on it with someone to, to develop what your key

messages are, for example, or how they deliver the messages so you know, more

positive language or maybe being a bit more optimistic in, or maybe it's

how you project when you are talking.

So there's, there are practical things you could be doing and as you've mentioned,

don't be afraid to get support if needed.

It could be a mentor, it could be a coach.

There are specific training courses on particular issues

that, that you can tackle as well.

Yeah.

And I think have that, um, support network of people where you can test

things out and it doesn't have to be loads of people, but those people that

you really trust where you can go, I'm really struggling with this and I feel

like I want to try a different approach, but I'm just not sure how it's gonna land.

Like just talk it through with people who you feel like are either gonna just

at least give you that safe space to talk through or you know, maybe give

you some of that constructive challenge and feedback that will help you.

So we've, we've tackled the possible situation where someone feeling like they

need to show more confidence or, or feel more confident in what they're doing.

So let's, let's tackle the flip side of that, which is, if you've had

that feedback that perhaps you're showing up with too much confidence

and you need to dial it down a bit, what does that look like?

So some of my advice around this would be the same.

So some of it is about understand that feedback.

If people are saying this to you, be curious and open about

asking what this really means.

What are they perceiving?

Why do they think this about you?

So that can help you identify what the issue is, if there is

an issue, there might not be.

But kind of just understanding why there is this perception that you are

showing up with too much confidence.

And in this space, I definitely think it's probably more likely

to be external feedback that says that to you than you thinking it

yourself, if I'm perfectly honest.

Um, so you really need to, but need to not be defensive about working

through like what that means for other people and how they're perceiving you.

Cause I think that will help you do that, um, that reflection

piece to understand it better.

There's definitely something for me around reflecting on why you might be perhaps

over amplifying some of your behaviors or some of how you're showing up in the room.

Like what's the cause of that?

And you know, it, it might be really uncomfortable to have some of this

self-reflection and maybe you need to do it with a coach or a mentor or whatever.

but there's something about like, what is the cause?

Is it that you are feeling some sort of need to prove yourself?

And why is that?

Is it because you don't have trust in the people around you to come

up with the solution, so you feel like you are having to contribute

everything that you've got and not give them the space to, to contribute?

So I think there could be lots of factors as to why you might be

full on uh, can you over show up?

I don't know.

But showing up with that, too much of that confidence , the, with the jazz hands.

Um, so I think there is is an important piece of work to do there that might

be partly by yourself, might be with some support from other people.

And then I think there is also that bit that I mentioned before um, that I've

tried to do, which is learning more about the different people and personality types

that you are working with as a senior leader so that you can actually work out

how best to support them to show up as well and create maybe more of an equitable

balance around voices in the room, people sharing suggestions, ideas, because that

can help you to just be more aware of making sure that you're not maybe always

taking things over, talking over people, because actually you have a role as a

leader to get the best out of everybody.

So you need to start doing some of that understanding as well.

And yeah, I abso and I absolutely think that both, both of those scenarios

probably might, somewhere along the line, if you look back, say something about

the culture that either you are or that is being created in your organization if

you've got got that space, but that again is probably a whole other episode, Lee

Well, I mean, without a doubt, the the nub of the issue is, is

around as a leader being, having that self-awareness and also knowing

who you surround yourself with.

So I think the two almost go hand in hand for me.

The who you surround your self with is really important cuz you need people

around you who's gonna tell it to you as it is not what you would like to hear.

So they can help perhaps shine a light on some of those behaviors that might

not be helpful in the culture that you are, you are building or, or how

you are managing certain situations.

So I think for anything in your leadership development being really

curated, you know, cur curate your your support network's really important, I

know we've talked about that before.

And then I think this, this awareness of your behaviors and if you don't

have the right people around you who are, who are willing to perhaps feed

it back and, and even though they know you're not gonna like it, you could

be perpetuating behaviors and creating a culture that you, you don't like.

So you, you being aware of what you say and how you say it.

Are you being condescending when you are feeding back to people?

Are you taking all the credit for the stuff that your team's doing?

Are you perhaps pushing blame to other people when things don't work?

All of those are, are kind of warning signs in, in my eyes, of

being slightly overconfident in your leadership and, and management.

Um, and you need someone to call you out on.

that

and and I, I absolutely agree with that.

And to build on that, I guess earlier in my career, going back to the point that

sometimes maybe some of us who are showing up with CO too, too much confidence,

some of that might be about masking where we are really feeling not confident.

And actually sometimes I think, you know, a lot of the time there will be people,

I don't, I don't think this person's going to like this feedback because

they're so confident, they think they know it all is probably a perception,

but actually there will be those odd occasions where it would've been really

nice for me to have somebody say, do you know what, you seem to be like

super loud in this meeting or the last few times we've met you've like really

talked, not let anyone have a voice.

Like, is everything okay with you?

Because I think that would have given me permission to go, no, actually I feel like

I'm really out of my depth and I dunno what I'm doing and I'm, and I, but I,

and I know that won't be everybody, but again, it's like that feedback is really

helpful because particularly earlier on in my career, and I'm sure with other

people, you think you have to show up with confidence all the time cause that's

what's gonna make people believe that you are really great at your job and that

it's gonna get you your next career step.

And sometimes just somebody kindly saying to you, this is, this is how

you're coming across, is that how you are intending to come across?

Is there anything going on there for you?

Might actually just be the release you need to go, I know you think

I'm super cocky and know it all but actually at the moment I'm

feeling really out for my depth.

So I think there's the two sides, but I absolutely do think a lot of the time

it's, it's that other bit of it that people are so sure of themselves may

be that they are not gonna accept the feedback, but yeah, like you say, you

need people who are gonna feel able to give you that feedback compassionately

and with good intent to enable you to, to maybe be more self-aware and reflect.

Yeah.

So that brings us nicely to our How To.

So our ending on a few helpful prompts or actions that you can take.

So, so what are your How tos Carrie-Ann?

From today's conversation I would definitely say there's

something for me about being curious and digging more into that feedback.

So if you're getting either feedback, you're too much,

you're too, you are not enough.

Whatever that feedback is that you're getting about how you're showing up on

your confidence, I think the crucial bit is to kind of dig into that and get some

real examples and evidence that will then help you do the next really important

thing, which I think is that reflection piece about kind of why, and you know,

if there's lots of ways you can do that depending on where you are in this space,

about how confident you're feeling.

But, so yeah, understand the feedback, maybe seek out some more and, um, do that

self-reflection piece would be my two..

Yeah, my mine's similar.

I, I think that is the most important thing that that's, you,

you can almost self coach yourself.

You know?

What, what does a change in confidence look like?

How will you know a change has happened?

But I do think, don't just take feedback or, or even your

own belief at at face value.

You do need to do that dig in a bit deeper for, for all the

reasons that we've talked about.

And um, we'll put a link in the show notes to the book we mentioned.

And also if you want to subscribe to get other leadership reading

recommendations, you can do that.

If you like this episode, don't forget to hit like and share it with someone so that

they can also benefit from our wisdom.

Does that sound too confident Carrie-Ann?

Oh, are you?

You are showing up really overconfident there, Lee.

Almost borderline a bit cocky.

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