Author, speaker, and certification expert Pamela Slim addresses the “new world of work”, including what makes it so unpredictable, what is considered THE meta skill throughout all of history, and how to talk to our kids about what we do professionally.
One of the nicest people in the world, Pamela Slim. And
Host:if you've been in the world of vlogs and social media for any
Host:amount of time, surely you know Pamela. She is an award winning
Host:author, coach, speaker, and has kind of an interesting story.
Host:And her book is called Body of Work, and it gives sort of a
Host:fresh perspective on the skills required in the new world of
Host:work, from both corporate to nonprofit to small business to
Host:salespeople to all the above. Pamela, thanks for being on the show.
Pamela Slim:Well, thank you so much for having me. I am
Pamela Slim:delighted to be here.
Host:So you say that the quote, unquote world of work is no
Host:longer predictable.
Pamela Slim:Absolutely. I know salespeople, of all people in
Pamela Slim:the world know this, because often sales folks are the ones
Pamela Slim:that are right there, you know, talking to customers and working
Pamela Slim:on a deal for a long time and having it fall through at the
Pamela Slim:last minute, because, you know, your key contact gets laid off
Pamela Slim:or redeployed somewhere else. And I I've been for about the
Pamela Slim:past 20 years working, working in the world of business, always
Pamela Slim:on the human side. And as early as the 90s, I was noticing
Pamela Slim:trends as we turned to see more waves of layoffs and
Pamela Slim:reorganizations. But I think things really started to pick up
Pamela Slim:steam, especially in 2008 when we all experienced a huge
Pamela Slim:economic catastrophe, that that really rallied around the globe.
Pamela Slim:And what was interesting to me, as somebody who has worked in
Pamela Slim:and studied the world of work for so long, is it felt like
Pamela Slim:there was something that kind of permanently etched reality in
Pamela Slim:all of our minds, which said even huge institutions that we
Pamela Slim:thought would never fail can fail, and that which we consider
Pamela Slim:to be even a solid, respectable career is not really anything
Pamela Slim:that we can count on. So there's a part of the message, I think,
Pamela Slim:that is just acknowledging the reality. I've always been a very
Pamela Slim:pragmatic optimist, where I'd like to look at the reality and
Pamela Slim:say truly, as individual business owners, we can't count
Pamela Slim:on the market staying the same, as we've seen through a number
Pamela Slim:of different economic downturns. As corporate employees, we can't
Pamela Slim:count on our organization to stay the same, or our customer
Pamela Slim:base or positions, but when we know that, then we can do
Pamela Slim:specific things to actually make ourselves indispensable and
Pamela Slim:highly employable, whether we're redeployed within our own
Pamela Slim:organizations when change does happen, or to also be a person
Pamela Slim:if you do end up being laid off, that you're highly flexible and
Pamela Slim:you can quickly get another job or have other kinds of business
Pamela Slim:opportunities. And I always say it's by force or by choice. I've
Pamela Slim:being a somebody who's been a coach for a long time. I work
Pamela Slim:with a lot of people who are choosing to make a career
Pamela Slim:transition or choosing to start a business, or to, you know,
Pamela Slim:move up in an organization. But I think given the, you know, the
Pamela Slim:the unstable nature of the economy and of organizations,
Pamela Slim:more and more people will have that path, and so we really do
Pamela Slim:need a new way of looking at our careers. That was really the
Pamela Slim:driving force behind writing body of work is I found I've
Pamela Slim:worked in just about every work mode you can imagine. I've been
Pamela Slim:in the nonprofit sector. I've, you know, run a nonprofit as a
Pamela Slim:volunteer. I worked in corporate I've been an entrepreneur, I've
Pamela Slim:been a stay at home mom, and, you know, I find that really the
Pamela Slim:way that we can actually, you know, create a strong sense of
Pamela Slim:always being employable is by the narrative that we tell. And
Pamela Slim:if we're looking at the general narrative, which is, have you
Pamela Slim:been a stable person, which means that you've been in one
Pamela Slim:organization for a long time now? Again, even if you want to
Pamela Slim:do that, it's not necessarily possible, so you need to
Pamela Slim:constantly be retelling the story about who you are and what
Pamela Slim:your strengths are and what valuable things that you've
Pamela Slim:contributed. The really good side to this equation is as one
Pamela Slim:side of the new world of work is instability, the other side is
Pamela Slim:an amazing opportunity that we have for doing all kinds of
Pamela Slim:different work and on the personal branding side, we have
Pamela Slim:so many tools now that allow us to tell our stories in
Pamela Slim:compelling ways, through things like blogs or social media, our
Pamela Slim:own websites, I think we have a lot more capacity to create a
Pamela Slim:cohesive story about ourselves than we ever did in the past.
Host:Salespeople are kind of classically known for switching
Host:companies. What is your opinion on that? Do you think it's
Host:negative to be switching all the time?
Pamela Slim:Yeah, I think there's two things. The first
Pamela Slim:is, for my definition of body of work, it's really as you look at
Pamela Slim:the course of your life, what are all the things that you
Pamela Slim:really want to create, contribute, affect and impact?
Pamela Slim:That's the one decision that. Would make is really what is
Pamela Slim:that body of work that you want to create based on things that
Pamela Slim:are really important to you, using your skills and your
Pamela Slim:strengths and so with that as a definition, I don't just mean
Pamela Slim:concrete things, like helping to build organizations through
Pamela Slim:sales, which is a hugely important skill set, which
Pamela Slim:salespeople have, but it's also in what are the intangible ways
Pamela Slim:in which you affect the world? How are you as a parent, as a
Pamela Slim:community member, as a spouse, you know, what are you really
Pamela Slim:contributing? What's your emotional wake that you leave as
Pamela Slim:you really walk through the world? And is it something that
Pamela Slim:you feel proud of and that you really leave as a legacy? So
Pamela Slim:when you think about it from that perspective, to move around
Pamela Slim:or not move around to me, it's really addressed by why. And
Pamela Slim:sometimes you can, you can be pursuing what seems to be the
Pamela Slim:next great opportunity. I really was fortunate. I spent about
Pamela Slim:three years with a client who had a sales training business.
Pamela Slim:I've worked with hundreds and hundreds of salespeople who I
Pamela Slim:think happened to me some of the most like interesting, flexible,
Pamela Slim:positive people. You know, I really like it. I love the skill
Pamela Slim:set. I love the fact that the skill set is really flexible,
Pamela Slim:and that you do have to get enthusiastic and care about what
Pamela Slim:you're doing, really infuse yourself in in a culture, in a
Pamela Slim:company, in order to be able to really sell effectively. And so
Pamela Slim:it is the kind of skill set of any I think that are out there
Pamela Slim:that can be, you know, really effective to be moving in
Pamela Slim:different places. But my question would be, are you just
Pamela Slim:jumping to what seems to be the next great, great opportunity
Pamela Slim:because of maybe a financial outcome, or are you conscious
Pamela Slim:about what it is that you want to create? So for example, you
Pamela Slim:might be somebody who works in tech who gets really excited
Pamela Slim:about helping early stage entrepreneurs create a solid
Pamela Slim:foundation for their business and to get sales moving in the
Pamela Slim:early stage. So in that case, maybe you're just working for an
Pamela Slim:organization to get them up to that stage, develop the capacity
Pamela Slim:of the internal folks to sell more effectively and hire other
Pamela Slim:people, and then you're ready to go on to the next challenge, and
Pamela Slim:especially if you would tie that particular technology to one
Pamela Slim:that you're passionate about, right? The same thing could be
Pamela Slim:true where you might be selling a service that you're really
Pamela Slim:passionate about, some kind of health related service or
Pamela Slim:artistic pursuit. I think that's the beautiful thing. Is, with a
Pamela Slim:sales, you know, a selling skill set, then you can really learn
Pamela Slim:how to sell in many different industries to many different
Pamela Slim:people, but from an individual career perspective, I would say,
Pamela Slim:are you giving yourself enough time in each role to really be
Pamela Slim:building that which you want to build? And there's always, you
Pamela Slim:always have the capacity, I think, to tell a compelling
Pamela Slim:story. But the reality is, you know in terms of how you might
Pamela Slim:sell yourself to somebody, or you might explain your history
Pamela Slim:and how it is that you've moved through many different
Pamela Slim:positions. I think the important thing to remember is that your
Pamela Slim:work really does speak for you. So if you truly have had
Pamela Slim:integrity in your roles, you've done a great job, you've
Pamela Slim:developed really powerful relationships, and you move on.
Pamela Slim:That's the kind of enduring legacy that your work really
Pamela Slim:speaks for and that can't be spun. That's what other people
Pamela Slim:are going to be talking about. You know, when, when they talk
Pamela Slim:about you, and it's in today's job environment, I think that is
Pamela Slim:how people get jobs. Is based on your reputation of what you've
Pamela Slim:actually built and done.
Host:Is it fair to say that, you know, like body of work is
Host:it's kind it's almost like personal branding?
Pamela Slim:That is exactly right. I mean, the first piece
Pamela Slim:is, what actually are you creating, right? What? How are
Pamela Slim:you being conscious about that work that you actually want to
Pamela Slim:do in the world? What organizations do you want to
Pamela Slim:support? You know? What? What problems do you want to solve?
Pamela Slim:And then you do that through your skills and strengths. But
Pamela Slim:yes, the way that you help people understand who you are
Pamela Slim:and what you do is, by the story you tell. It is the meta skill
Pamela Slim:of the 21st century, which, by the way, has always been the
Pamela Slim:meta skill, right? Storytelling is the way that that we all, we
Pamela Slim:all relate to each other, and we have since the very, you know,
Pamela Slim:early days. And the good thing is, that's actually what good
Pamela Slim:salespeople understand, right? But I think there's two parts to
Pamela Slim:the story. There's, what is the story you're telling yourself?
Pamela Slim:Are you saying, oh my gosh, you know, my work history sounds
Pamela Slim:really sketchy. I'm desperate. I need to get a job, oh my gosh,
Pamela Slim:in which case it's hard then to create a compelling, authentic
Pamela Slim:story to somebody else, right? Versus where you say, I, you
Pamela Slim:know, I may not have had a perfect past. Everybody has
Pamela Slim:challenges, you know, in your life and your work, but this is
Pamela Slim:the meaning that I've really gotten from it, and these are
Pamela Slim:the kinds of projects that I've really thought about that I want
Pamela Slim:to contribute to. And here's why my specific skills fit. And so
Pamela Slim:yes, that is personal branding. I think the thing I want to
Pamela Slim:underline is it's really based on deep integrity with yourself
Pamela Slim:and with the work that you want to do, and then that just has
Pamela Slim:natural positive impacts in terms of the opportunities that
Pamela Slim:open up for you. And I think people buy for different
Pamela Slim:reasons. We're wired a little bit differently. Some folks,
Pamela Slim:very much make decisions based on personal relationships and
Pamela Slim:how they feel if they trust somebody. A lot of other folks.
Pamela Slim:Folks will make a decision that is based on all kinds of
Pamela Slim:research and data or, you know, individual and institutional
Pamela Slim:decisions, but I think a huge overriding factor is the kind of
Pamela Slim:relationship and trust that you build and in organizations. I've
Pamela Slim:seen this so much when I used to consult in organizations,
Pamela Slim:they're going through as much change in tumultuousness as the
Pamela Slim:outside market. And it's amazing what can happen if you have a
Pamela Slim:new manager come in, or a VP, or a change in business strategy,
Pamela Slim:you have to sell yourself all over again, you know, sometimes,
Pamela Slim:sometimes the same people, when everybody's looking like, wait a
Pamela Slim:minute, you know, our whole go to market strategy changed. And
Pamela Slim:therefore, you know, does Pam really have what it takes? Can I
Pamela Slim:know she's been really successful in this market, but
Pamela Slim:you know, how can she really compete in this other kind of
Pamela Slim:market? Does she have the skills to do it if you've been
Pamela Slim:conscious about it, not just the story you're telling, but also
Pamela Slim:relationships that you're building, ways that you're
Pamela Slim:weaving in other kinds of activities? You know, I think a
Pamela Slim:lot of folks forget that every single part of your life is
Pamela Slim:really part of part of your body of work, so sometimes
Pamela Slim:significant activities that you do outside, people may not be
Pamela Slim:aware of the fact that you're a huge volunteer, you know, you're
Pamela Slim:a member of your community, or you're an amazing parent, and
Pamela Slim:you, you know, have a child with special needs, and you put in,
Pamela Slim:like, lots of extra effort and energy. All those kinds of
Pamela Slim:things are really an important part of the story that you can
Pamela Slim:tell, and it's really about solidifying confidence and
Pamela Slim:really helping to go through a transition in a positive way. I
Pamela Slim:was working on a consulting project, and I was laughing with
Pamela Slim:my client. We had new folks come in that were hired, and even
Pamela Slim:though, kind of, the senior person in the project was one
Pamela Slim:who I had great trust with, he really wanted to defer to folks
Pamela Slim:who were coming in on the project to make sure that, you
Pamela Slim:know, they related to me. And we were laughing, because he's
Pamela Slim:like, Oh, I saw how you started to work, you know, how you
Pamela Slim:started you were sending emails and, you know, having
Pamela Slim:conversations with them, and introducing yourself in a way so
Pamela Slim:that they really knew who you were. And he was laughing
Pamela Slim:because he knows me, and he knows that that's just part of
Pamela Slim:what you have to do is you're going through a transition. You
Pamela Slim:can't rely on your past performance, you can't rely on
Pamela Slim:relationships that you've had, because all of those can change,
Pamela Slim:and especially if business strategy changes.
Host:In the book, you have this great line you say, the quality
Host:of your life in business is directly related to the quality
Host:of your stories.
Pamela Slim:Yeah, I really believe it passionately, because
Pamela Slim:being so tuned into, you know, to the workplace, and especially
Pamela Slim:folks that might be out of work or looking for new
Pamela Slim:opportunities, it's easy sometimes to look at somebody
Pamela Slim:who gets an opportunity and say, oh, man, you know, that wasn't
Pamela Slim:fair. You know, that person's lucky, or they had this
Pamela Slim:background, or come from this place, and therefore they got
Pamela Slim:the job. And what I always know, because I've just watched it for
Pamela Slim:so long and coach so many people around it is somebody who
Pamela Slim:actually got the opportunity, took the time to really research
Pamela Slim:and understand what were the needs of that person, who they
Pamela Slim:were wanting to make a sale to right kind of, again, an
Pamela Slim:internal sale for an opportunity. And it's funny,
Pamela Slim:it's talk about, you know, when you talk about branding, can be
Pamela Slim:a touching point when you talk about selling, you know, if you
Pamela Slim:start to talk about things like parenting or, you know, getting
Pamela Slim:a spouse, you know, some of the underlying skills of using the
Pamela Slim:good light side of the Force skills that we have right are
Pamela Slim:about deeply understanding and connecting with somebody feeling
Pamela Slim:good enough about yourself. When you meet that person who you're
Pamela Slim:just think is wonderful, who would be a great life partner.
Pamela Slim:You don't really knock yourself, you know, out of the running by
Pamela Slim:saying, oh my gosh, but you know, I'm not that good a
Pamela Slim:person, and why would they ever date me? And I'm not good
Pamela Slim:enough. I'm not smart enough. You know, people don't like me.
Pamela Slim:That's that internal story sometimes that becomes a driving
Pamela Slim:narrative for our life, and it ends up really leaking out into
Pamela Slim:also how it is that we tell a story about ourselves moving
Pamela Slim:forward. And so I just want to clarify again, by story, I don't
Pamela Slim:mean making up things to just bamboozle everybody. It's
Pamela Slim:actually telling a clear, compelling story that you deeply
Pamela Slim:believe about yourself, but that's based on your reflection
Pamela Slim:about that work in the world that you want to do, and based
Pamela Slim:on also about being the kind of person that you want to be in
Pamela Slim:the world. You know, what kind of parent do you want to be?
Pamela Slim:What are the stories that you tell your kids? What are the
Pamela Slim:stories that you tell your kids about what work is? I'm always
Pamela Slim:fascinated by people who spend all their time when they get
Pamela Slim:home saying how terrible it is, and the office was horrible and
Pamela Slim:the commute was bad. And I'm thinking, man, what kind of a
Pamela Slim:story are your kids going to have about what working means?
Pamela Slim:How excited are they going to be to be joining the world of work?
Pamela Slim:If that's what you hear, I was blessed that I had a dad who's
Pamela Slim:still at 79 years old as a passionate photographer. Every
Pamela Slim:time I heard him talk about work, it was with excitement for
Pamela Slim:his craft, and I'm so thankful to him for telling that kind of
Pamela Slim:story about work, because it showed me that you can love what
Pamela Slim:you do, and so I've always pursued work that really lit me up.
Host:Yeah, I mean, that's those are, those are powerful
Host:questions to think of as powerful. How do we become
Host:better storytellers?
Pamela Slim:I think one it, one thing it could do is, is to read
Pamela Slim:and whatever genre of books that you enjoy, if it's fiction or
Pamela Slim:even non. Fiction, pay attention to what people are actually
Pamela Slim:doing as they're narrating, creating a great story. The
Pamela Slim:ultimate resource for storytelling, I think, is Nancy
Pamela Slim:Duarte book Resonate, fantastic book as a resource for really
Pamela Slim:understanding. How can you tell a compelling story when you're
Pamela Slim:trying to get somebody to change, which is what you do in
Pamela Slim:a selling in a sales environment, right? And Nancy
Pamela Slim:studied all kinds of the great speeches of all time, and really
Pamela Slim:noted through extensive research about a certain pattern and a
Pamela Slim:structure to a story that can be very effective and persuasive.
Pamela Slim:So I think there's things like that where you can, you know,
Pamela Slim:get resources like that, I find the arts are one that also
Pamela Slim:really contribute to you getting excited about a great story. So
Pamela Slim:if you can go to a great play, or, you know, see a really
Pamela Slim:wonderful movie, you start to pay attention to, you know, how
Pamela Slim:did that grab me? And why was that exciting? Or, Why did I get
Pamela Slim:scared at that moment, you know, and, and those, I think, can be
Pamela Slim:things that are that are really useful, again, from a sales
Pamela Slim:perspective, I think that is a skill that so many folks need to
Pamela Slim:have. And really one of the fundamental underlying skills, I
Pamela Slim:think, of great storytelling, is where you really do think about
Pamela Slim:who your audience is, and really make sure that you spend a lot
Pamela Slim:of time understanding what is the nature of your organization
Pamela Slim:that you're selling into. What are the personal things that are
Pamela Slim:really driving folks who you're having conversations with, so
Pamela Slim:that when you choose what it is that you want to talk to them
Pamela Slim:about, or present to them, or give certain examples, but it's
Pamela Slim:very related to what their actual experience is, and I
Pamela Slim:think that's something that can only strengthen what it is you
Pamela Slim:do on the sales side.
Host:I love it. Well, Pamela, thank you so much. This has just
Host:been awesome. And thank you for being on the show.
Pamela Slim:Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.