Beth and Fr. Steve examine Archbishop Vigneron’s June pastoral note The Beauty of Truth: A Pastoral Note on Communicating Truth and Love in the Digital Age and how we can implement these ideas in ministry.

Show notes:

(0:50) Beth and Fr. Steve catch up and talk about the joys of Michigan summer. They share vacation updates, and then introduce this episode’s topic, Archbishop Vigneron’s pastoral note The Beauty of Truth.

(4:17) Fr. Steve introduces the first element of the pastoral note for discussion: the importance of not only what we say to people, but how we say it. Beth reflects on the “us vs. them” antagonism that exists in media, including among Catholics.

(6:40) The two reflect on the attitude and negativity people use on social media and refer to the Archbishop’s recognition that the internet is not a system of wires, but rather a connection of real people. Fr. Steve and Beth discuss the importance of learning how to disagree well and with civility.

(12:59) Beth addresses the interest young people have in ‘likes’ and calculating popularity through metrics, and she and Fr. Steve discuss how this problem can be solved. Beth suggests that more in-person relationships, general self-awareness, and increased prayer will combat this problem.

(17:44) Fr. Steve and Beth discuss the five “warning signs” Archbishop Vigneron identifies in the pastoral note, beginning with propositions that are out of harmony with the Church’s teachings. They encourage people to refer to the Catechism of the Catholic Church to confirm what the Church teaches and how we’re called to respond.

(20:39) They talk about unsubstantiated claims or allegations and how pervasive of a problem this is today. Fr. Steve discusses our obligation as Catholics to the words we use and, rooted in the eighth commandment, to not bear false witness.

(23:38) Beth introduces the third warning sign, which is the manipulation of facts to deceive or cause harm. Fr. Steve mentions our call as Catholics to presume goodwill in others while still thinking critically. The two also talk about our obligation for the content we consume.

(28:59) Moving to the fourth and fifth warning signs, Fr. Steve and Beth discuss ad hominem attacks and the spirit of division, and the need for us to be apostles in this day and age.

(34:57) For the end-of-show quiz, Beth tests Fr. Steve on the most popular dog breeds, and Fr. Steve successfully guesses seven!

Links from this episode:

The Beauty of Truth

Fr. Steve:

Welcome to another episode of Encounter Grow Witness, as Beth shakes her head at that silly introduction, the podcast where we talk about what it means to unleash the Gospel, especially for those who are working in our parishes as we move into Families of Parishes, we are going to have a great episode today. So I'm excited and Beth, how are you doing?

Beth:

I'm doing well. Yeah. August.

Fr. Steve:

August. How, yeah, how awesome summer is in Michigan. I love summer in Michigan. It is what we sit through that whole winter for. So summer in Michigan, if there wasn't construction would be so much better.

Beth:

Yeah, I was gonna make it, but you beat me to it. Yeah. Yeah. Construction season.

Fr. Steve:

Yeah. But it's also vacation season and I know lots of people get to explore different parts of the state or, you know, this summer is like road trips summer. So many people going on road trips and doing things. Beth, any Spizarny family trips this year?

Beth:

Yeah. We went out to Grand Rapids just for a weekend just to kind of get away with the kids. And I was asking my kid the same question we had talked about a couple of months ago, favorite summer memories. And his favorite summer memories were playing with the neighbors. And that one time we got ice cream. So after crying myself to sleep, it was like, we can do better than that. We can do better than that. So we packed everybody up and got on the road and we also got ice cream. That one time again, I had a great time. So it was nice to be a way and went swimming, saw Lake Michigan, the zoo, things like that. So it was nice. Yeah.

Fr. Steve:

That is fantastic. I think—.

Beth:

I hope it makes his future list of summer memories.

Fr. Steve:

He's gonna say, like, "This, mom."

Beth:

Oh no, no, no. We're not like that. How about you?

Fr. Steve:

Yeah, so I went with a group of priests, friends up to Mackinac City and we kind of just spent a few days, went up to Tahquamenon Falls, did some hiking around there, went to over to Mackinac Island, which was hopping. It was just really cool to see like a lot of people out and about. We had beautiful weather and you know, to me, one of the best parts of the summer is up north sunset, Mackinac bridge. Like that is pretty quintessential. So I told them, I'm like, "Hey guys, we're getting ice cream, that one time."

Beth:

Sure. That one time, yeah, you don't want to overdo it.

Fr. Steve:

We're going to hang out you know, as the sun's going down and it was, it was a lot of fun. It was a beautiful trip. Beautiful. Like, Michigan's so beautiful. I love our state, so yeah.

Beth:

#PureMichigan.

Fr. Steve:

Yeah. We could do the Tim Allen voice.

Beth:

Oh let's hear it. You want to do it for us? Let's hear it.

Fr. Steve:

I can't think of it.

Beth:

Our listeners are really interested.

Fr. Steve:

Beth:

Yeah. The Beauty of Truth: A Pastoral Note on Communicating Truth and Love in the Digital Age.

Fr. Steve:

Yep. So, a little fun fact, he released it on June 11th, which was, is my anniversary. And it was 10 years this year. Like he's speaking to me, giving me a call out, Hey, watch it, buddy. Yeah. But you know, this is really calling us to live our faith in a digital age, express the beauty of truth in how we communicate. And we'll talk about a number of parts of it. But one part that I thought was really helpful is thinking about the communication of truth. Isn't just with the words, but it's also the way we communicate. Gosh. And we've talked about that a number a number of times, I think in different ways, but how truth is conveyed with what we say and how we say it. So it's not just like, well, what you know, I said, what was true? You know, we're called to live in charity with truth as well. And so the way we say it, our attitude, our reason for saying it needs to communicate who Jesus is as well. And not just kind of be a cudgel of the truth that we're hitting people over the head with. Yeah, absolutely.

Beth:

Yeah. I thought, I mean, he starts off just saying that, "We see in here a constant stream of messages pouring forth day and night," which is true. Right. I mean my husband was on Twitter just this morning and mentioning, gosh, why are people so mad? Why are people so angry and rude to each other? I'm like, what are they mad about this morning? And he's like, oh, so many things. It's just a normal day of the week. You know, there's nothing particularly going on right now. It's just, that's just how we communicate to each other, you know? Yeah. The Bishop — Archbishop spoke about the sense of "us and them" antagonism even among Catholics. And it's true. Right. We see it. I've seen it. Yeah. I mean, yeah.

Fr. Steve:

So, well, let me ask you then what is your social media footprint — to use a weird way of saying it? Like what platforms can our wonderful listeners find you on, or not, but like, like how do you engage in social media? What, what tools do you use?

Beth:

Right. I used to be on Twitter more actively than I am now. Facebook, Instagram, not very active, but somewhat, but Facebook. I used to run our parish's page at my last parish, and so all hours of the night, I'm getting comments and inbox and I mean, I'm brushing my teeth at night and now I'm having a fight. So that's a shame. So now that I'm not responsible for that, or at this point in my parish, you know, I can brush my teeth without having to realize what someone is mad about somewhere.

Fr. Steve:

Brush your teeth in peace.

Beth:

But I mean, I'm pretty familiar with, with how we seem to interact. And by we, I mean, you know, probably practicing Catholics, how we seem to interact on social media in both ways that are really inspiring and evangelizing and in ways that are really harming our efforts. And I don't think people are fully aware of the impact of our words there. So I'm grateful for this pastoral note.

Fr. Steve:

Yeah. I think — so I'm on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. I'm not on the cooler ones, Snapchat or the Tik Tok or the other ones like that. Yeah. But I'm on those three and you know, for me, I felt like during the pandemic, in the last election, there was just so much consternation, vitriol. Yeah. The right way to say it. That I found it very difficult to engage in things. Like, I didn't know how to engage with people I like in person, but then on social media can become, you know, throwing bombs and it's one thing to disagree about certain aspects you know, important things. But I do feel like there's a way that we can give ourselves an excuse to act on social media in a depersonalizing way. And I think the Archbishop writes here about the reality that the internet is not just a system of wires, but it's a connection of people, of real people whose salvation — the salvation of their soul is at stake.

Fr. Steve:

And so I find myself struggling often in the last, let's just say the last year or so, how to engage in it in a way that the demonstrates with, again, with word and tone and all those things, the beauty of truth. So I think it's a real challenge for a lot of people and I haven't figured out perfectly how to do it. And I think Twitter is the worst of them. Twitter is the place where, you know, you can, you can be most anonymous, the brevity of it kind of makes it pretty, you know, conducive to no nuance, and just kind of, you know, making a short snippy point. But yeah. Yeah. I just find it to be a challenge as a priest on how I engage in that. Do you use it personally? Are you mostly there in your, like in your—.

Beth:

That's a good question.

Fr. Steve:

Church capacity, or your role?

Beth:

I suppose it's a mixture, it's a mixture. Definitely. I'm there, you know, trying to share just good stuff that's going on in the Church and in the world. But I do share personal things about, you know, my family and thoughts and things. I don't think, I don't think my listeners or my followers are particularly fascinated to hear my opinion on every topic. So I do limit myself, but yeah, I think it is, it's hard for us. I think the skill that we need to learn, how to do online is we need to learn how to disagree well. My brother is an atheist and has been for a number of years and he just mentioned how the responses he gets from people when he says that, people are very antagonistic. They're very harsh in response to him. Well, how could you think and what about, and it's sort of, you wouldn't think that people would respond like that, but they do.

Beth:

And I was inspired by that back when I was in youth ministry and I wrote a game where everyone had to write down anonymously, an unpopular opinion that they really held. And then we would read the note. We would read them one at a time anonymously and have a conversation. We had to discuss this every unpopular decision or opinion for at least 30 seconds or whatever. And after the discussion, the person who actually that was their opinion, they would give a candy to whoever they would be willing to continue the conversation with. Okay. At the end, everyone had to disagree. Everyone had to disagree with the opinion. So at the time I think one of my unpopular opinions was I hate Santa Claus. And I do, we can talk about it another time, but. So that was the, so you just read the statement and then everyone has to disagree with it, but they have to find a way to disagree with it so that you would want to continue the conversation with them.

Beth:

Right? And it was a fascinating game because our young people, especially, but all of us, we haven't really thought about how to do that, how to disagree well, right. How to like make a point, but still be civil and still respect that this is a person, right? Who holds this opinion. Now it did get dicey because some of the opinions on those papers, you're like, oh boy, that's a really hard one. I have to read that out loud. It's the game, we're going to read it. You know? But I think we have to learn how to disagree well. And I think, especially if it's online and it's public, the world is watching. I mean, how many of our followers and people, like, might see that we've left this comment, but they're not a person of faith and they see us a person of faith acting like this. I don't think we've thought through the ramifications of the way we're talking online.

Fr. Steve:

Yeah. I think of it as what we say, how we say it. And then, you know, this is a little nuanced, but I think about like the amount of time we spend there. I, you know, for my own life, I think I need to be spending a hugely greater proportion of my time in interactions in real life. And not that these are not real because I think more and more, it is real, right? More and more people are spending a lot of their time there or sharing part their life that maybe they wouldn't feel comfortable sharing in other ways. So I think it's, you know, the Archbishop does write how St. Paul used the roads of ancient Rome and yeah, and this is our avenue, so I don't want to draw too much of a divide between real and online.

Fr. Steve:

But, you know, for me, I think I have to very much limit the amount of time I spend on there. Because yeah, there's just people physically in my life as a priest that I think I need to be devoted to. So I think part of it in my own way of approaching it is to make sure that it doesn't become too much of my life. And I know for people, it can be very addictive. It can be, you know, the thing where and this can happen with YouTube videos or Facebook videos as well.

Beth:

Or Instagram posts. I mean, especially for our young people, right? I mean, this obsession with how many likes and the sense of one's popularity and worth and value being calculated by these metrics. It's yeah.

Fr. Steve:

Yeah. It can be really destructive. And so how do we solve that, Beth?

Beth:

Yeah. I mean, I think you're right. I think more time together is the answer. Now, that answer didn't work this last year. Right? With COVID it didn't work. Right. We couldn't do that. And so I think probably we've leaned more into it than is healthy because of the pandemic, because it was the only way we really could connect. I think that we have to think through when we are disagreeing with someone so strongly online, I think we have to think about — I think there there's just really a need for more self-awareness right. If I'm so angry or so upset about whatever this issue may be that I'm reacting like this, or I'm thinking of posting this thing that I think we just have to take that back to prayer, because that just comes back to, "In your anger, do not sin," right?

Beth:

If I'm speaking or acting in a way that's not respecting that this is not a jumble of wires, there's a real human person on the other side of this. I mean, in the midst of the Church abuse scandals, when I was the social media manager at my last parish, I mean, these inbox messages that I would get — I mean, I'm just reading this and I'm thinking like, I have to read this, you know, I have to read what you're saying because people are just so — they were so wounded and so angry and I'm sure people still are. Right? But yeah, I think we've just got to spend more time with the Lord in prayer, and maybe you're right. Maybe it's — maybe the other solution here is that if we can say these things out loud to one another in person, we can benefit from another person's honesty and like just, we can just have a conversation about it, which isn't, what's happening when we're just posting a two-sentence poke, and then now another two-sentence poke, right? And then we're getting into these bitter debates online. And meanwhile, the whole world is happening around us and we're not striving for holiness or being holy where we are in the scrap of space that our physical body is located, right, if we're ignoring our work or our kids or the real things that we should be doing.

Beth:

Yeah. One of the challenges we talked about last month, Gaudete et Exsultate, Pope Francis's document where he says, Gnosticism is a problem in our world where only the mind matters and the body is just some vessel, vehicle that we're trapped in, or it will pass away. And, you know, we're not made to spend eternity incarnate, that online, we lose all of the — like you and I are in the same room together with Ron. We can see each other. I can see if you're kind of understanding what I'm saying. If you're like, what is he talking about? Or if you're bored or if, you know, whatever, like there's so much of human communication that's needed. And when you just type something online, oftentimes other people add all the context, all the subtext, all the tone to it. And this can happen with text messages or any kind of format in that way. That it's — it can be disembodied, and even videos can be disembodied in some way online because it's not the real person that I'm engaged with. It's a —

Beth:

A message that they've created, which may be accurate and may not be accurate portrayal of who they are.

Fr. Steve:

I just, you know, recently I went to dinner with a friend of mine and my phone was updating and iPhones take, you know, I don't know, six months to update, whatever it took forever. So I just left it at home and went out and it was awkward because I was waiting for him to get there. And I couldn't look at my phone while everyone else was. But it was great too, because I just felt a kind of freedom to engage with him, to not worry about my pocket pinging.

Beth:

You don't have to respond to any urgent anything. You're just unplugged.

Fr. Steve:

Yeah. And you know, there's always the, what if, what if, what if, you know? What if something awful happens and I'm missing out on it? But I, you know, after that happened and it happened because of my phone updating, I thought, I'm going to do that more often. I'm going to leave my phone in my car if I go over someone's house or just not have it as a crutch for every like many awkward silence, or anytime I get bored, I can just check this. I think it helped me that time and I think it'll help us going forward. This gets us a little afield of what we're talking about on, on how to, how to use the digital communications. But I think it's important for us to —

Beth:

But I think that's a good strategy. Strategy number one: use them less.

Fr. Steve:

Yeah. Yeah. Don't become like, you know, that shouldn't become the normative way that we interact. There's something about Jesus coming in the flesh. That means us being in communion, community with each other is really important.

Beth:

Constantly new gadgets, the excitement of travel and an endless array of consumer goods at times leave no room for God's voice to be heard. We're overwhelmed by words. Right? Yeah. So I agree. I think that there's a lot of distractions there.

Fr. Steve:

You've got a good memory from last month, remembering that, but let's talk about, let's talk about the five warning signs. Yeah. I think that would be really, really good. So the first warning, what's the first warning, Archbishop Vigneron give us here.

Beth:

Any proposition out of harmony with the teachings of Christ and his Church. So when we see media that's proposing things that are opposed to the teachings of our faith. We should probably discern that.

Fr. Steve:

We should attack them, right?

Beth:

No!

Fr. Steve:

We should write nasty comments and maybe create an anonymous account to write nasty comments from.

Beth:

But the teachings of the Church they endure, right. The Church guards the deposit of faith, making it known in every age. So if something is being proposed out there, that's going against those, we can know, well.

Fr. Steve:

Yeah. And I think here, he's especially talking about those who purport to be Catholic or who say they're Catholic and propose things outside the teaching of the Church who kind of, you know, take the the moniker of Catholic and use it for their own teaching that's out of harmony with the Church. And the Archbishop says, Hey, if we're uncertain about it, hey, we got this cool thing called the Catechism of the Catholic church. Yeah, we should look it up and say, Hey, is that right? Is that really what we believe in? Right? And especially, you know, one of the topics can also — can often be about sensitive things like, you know, people who identify as gay or who are living a lifestyle different from the Church. And we can have this thing, like, you know, well, "Why does the Church hate gay people?" Can often be a moniker of the Church.

Beth:

Right.

Fr. Steve:

Well to look to the catechism and say, okay, what is theCchurch calling me to do in this situation? Like, how am I called to respond to people who live differently? Who may be, you know, there's a way I have to say, that's not in accord with God's plan, but that doesn't fill me with hate or rage or this kind of demand that I have to kind of beat them over the head with it, but okay. What's my response to that? And so if there, if there are media people proposing to be the Church, speak for the Church who give us something that doesn't sound right, or we're unsure go to the Catechism of the Catholic Church and see what we're being called to do. Yep. Absolutely. He writes here that the truths of the faith are not subject to revision.

Fr. Steve:

So we can have confidence that as the Letter to the Hebrews says, Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow and forever. Yeah. When I was in Mexico studying Spanish, it was during Corpus Christi and the Bishop led a big procession through the streets of Cuernavaca. And he was chanting oh man, I'm not going to remember. He was chanting, "Ayer, hoy, y siempre. Ayer, hoy, y siempre." Which in Spanish means "yesterday, today and forever." And so that's what I think of whenever I read that from the Letter to the Hebrews, Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. I think about this Mexican Bishop chanting that through the streets of Cuernavaca.

Beth:

It's good. That's good. Yeah. Warning sign number two. Problematic use of media and communication. Unsubstantiated claims or allegations.

Fr. Steve:

Yeah. Yeah. This is a real problem. And I think in our world when there's less confidence in the institution of the Church. And some of that is true, some of that is well earned because of brokenness. You talked about the challenges from the abuse scandal you know a big part of that was the Church not responding in the appropriate way. So when, when people have less confidence in the Church, whether it's her leaders or the institution in some kind of amorphous way, then you know, allegations are easier to make and easier to believe.

Beth:

Yeah. They're easier to believe 'cause people don't know. Yeah, we have this narrative now that, that everything is bad. And like there's all sorts — there's scandal under every carpet under every, in every corner and every crevice. And I think, especially for this, one of the difference between like Ave Maria and Al Crest on his show, he in the midst of, you know, everything that kind of came out a number of years ago, at least he was really seeking to be exploring what we knew. And I think he was kind of really striving to be more faithful to the Church, but also seeking, you know, answers for the problems that we were aware of. You know? And then I think of other media outlets that really more just were going, you know, it was all smoke, but there was, it was, it was exactly this. A lot of unsubstantiated claims and allegations, but the more like you believe those, right, the more, whatever those outlets are, right. The more they can sell you. Right? The more they can — oh, well, if you believe that story here, I've got an even bigger scandal, you never believe this. Right. And then we just, we're going from scandal, the scandal, but are these are any of these real? But like we're destroying people's lives when we put out things that, that aren't rooted in evidence. Yep.

Fr. Steve:

And that's a real problem that we can say, well, I'm just passing along what I heard or it's just something I heard. And we have a pretty serious obligation as Catholics. And this is rooted in, you know, the eighth commandment to not bear false witness that I have an obligation for the words I use. And that's no less true online. So if I share something, you know, that I heard so-and-so about such and such, that I have an obligation for the harm that that causes and if it causes justified harm, right? If someone's reputation is harmed because of what they did then you know, we can stand before the Lord with that to say, hey, it's something that, you know, I know is true. And I believed in my heart in discernment is the right thing to do. But if I'm just kind of throwing things out there to see what sticks or to say, hey, we need a great cleansing — and a cleansing means every claim just needs to be put out there? Like that is not how we're called to bear witness to the beauty of truth.

Beth:

Right. So the third one, the manipulation of facts to deceive or harm.

Fr. Steve:

Yeah, things can be — facts can be arranged in a way, the Archbishop says, and maybe added, you know, with sensational music or photos or insinuations with facts being true that can lead to cause people real spiritual harm. If the Church is a family and the Church is meant to be a family, a community of believers, there has to be mutual trust of each other. Now that trust has to be rooted in the truth, but we need to give people the benefit of the doubt. We don't, we're not called to be uncritical and we're not called to shut our minds off, but we do have to presume goodwill for other people. And I think if, if we're always manipulating facts or kind of shaping facts to fit a preconceived narrative, talk about poisonous for the life of any community, right? Like, a family couldn't survive that way. A school couldn't survive that way. And the body of Christ is just going to be torn apart with division if we do that.

Beth:

Yeah. Division.

Fr. Steve:

So, so what do we do?

Beth:

What do we do?

Fr. Steve:

What do I do? What do you do in this reality?

Beth:

I don't read it. That's one of my takeaways. If I'm aware of a media outlet or something that, I mean, you can tell them, you can tell by their fruits, right, does this lead to constructive — constructive dialogue, or does this just lead to division? Is this written in a spirit of charity or is it not? There are some that I won't read anything that they write. There are some outlets that I really, I won't read anything. Even if someone sends me the article, I will not click on it. I just won't, because I know what they're about. I have the impression that all of these warning signs for me are sounding. And so I don't think it's healthy for me to read it. And I don't think it's healthy for other people to read it. I don't think it helps us grow in holiness.

Beth:

I don't think it helps — it certainly, I don't think, helps our evangelical witness. And I think it really harms the way that we are called to live in charity towards one another, especially, and to the world. I mean, I — there was — I was just reading through this letter and then I just went on the Archdiocesan Facebook page just to see, well, how are we doing? Let's just do a quick litmus test. You know, why did the bishop feel we needed to write this? You know? So just rolling down through a few posts and you know, I mean, this is just a public page. Anyone can see these comments, how many people would read these comments and think, "Oh boy, these must be the disciples of Jesus. See how they love one another." That's not what I'm reading. Right? And these are good faithful people who love the Lord, but why are we not loving our neighbor then online? Why are we not loving — because maybe we do just think it's some impersonal thing. We don't sound like Christians. I think in some of our comments. And I think that's a big problem. A big problem.

Fr. Steve:

I think you're right. I, we have an obligation for what we consume media wise because it is going to shape us. And so, you know, if I think about, you know, this is a problem in the Church, it's a problem in the wider society. If I'm — and this is why I think we need to be careful how much time we spend on it. But if I'm constantly watching cable news, and letting that kind of like, be the background noise, that's going to affect me. Right? If I'm constantly listening to music that is blasphemous or kind of vulgar, that's going to affect me. If I'm watching a television show, right, that kind of degrades women, or treats sexuality as something that is, you know, not in accord with what Christ has given us, or kind of uses violence or language, like that's going to affect me.

Fr. Steve:

Right? That forms my mind. It shapes my mind. And the same is true with the news we read about the Church. If I'm consuming a set of facts that are pre-ordained, you know, to follow a narrative that someone has, that's going to affect me. So I have to be responsible for what I consume about the Church. And I have to turn to sources that I know are going to help me grow in holiness. That's one of the things, you know, I think it's so important. I'm glad you mentioned, like, what is going to help me go grow in holiness is following Vatican intrigue going to help me grow in holiness? 99.9% of people, it's not. There's nothing you can do about it.

Beth:

No, except for the things you could've done before you read the article. Pray, sacrifice fast. Use your voice.

Fr. Steve:

Exactly.

Beth:

And you can do those things now. You don't have to read the article. Yeah. People struggle with sin. Spoiler alert. Temptation is real.

Fr. Steve:

Kind of like wild accusations about things like, okay, we have an obligation to seek out truth and to know it, but to be very discerning and to know that the amount of time or effort or energy I spend trying to figure out or know things beyond my sphere of influence my sphere of where God has put me is not conducive — spending a ton of time in that is not conducive to growing in holiness. And it's really a trick of the devil that gets me distracted from the life God has called me to live. The fourth one here is just obvious and ad hominem attacks, people who go after to go after individuals and make personal attacks against them. Like, I don't think there's a lot of nuance that needs to be figured out about that. And if someone is making up names or calling people in a derogatory way, nicknames, like, yeah, that's not one who is going to help you grow in holiness. No, no bueno.

Beth:

How can we treat people that way? Yeah.

Fr. Steve:

Yeah. And then lastly, the spirit of division division, and we've talked about that today. Holy Spirit unites, Satan divides. Yeah. And yeah, I think the zeal for a good cause neither requires nor excuses purposefully sowing seeds of division, especially division from, and within the mystical body of Christ, the Church. It helps to remember that strength and gentleness are not antithetical. Right. I think that's so good.

Beth:

I think it's so good. I think we've forgotten that. I think people all the time think well, but it's for a good cause. So we can go ahead and sow the seeds of division. I just, I don't think we understand that. And the significance of division within the body of Christ, how that's particularly wrong. Right? I mean, if in the secular world, right, there's division, like who would be surprised, right? I mean, there's no moral compass, there's no guiding, but we're Christians. We know who we are. We're children of God created in his image and likeness made for love, made for eternity. And we are one in our baptism. We are one body. How we can speak to one another like that. I mean, it's not Christian. It's just not Christian. Pope Francis said, in Evangelii Gaudium to pray for a person with whom I am irritated is a beautiful step forward in love and act of evangelization.

Beth:

Let us do it today. Let us not allow ourselves to be robbed of the ideal of fraternal love. Right? Is that what we're doing? Are we choosing to do that? Are we choosing to pray for one another and to love one another? Or are we just leaning into the spirit of division? Are we not even aware that we're a source of division? If we're repeating, we're reading, every time we consume an article like that, right, they're getting more money. So they're going to create more articles like that. Every time I share whatever this dividing statement was, or article, every time I share that more people are going to see it and it increases, right? Yeah. We each play a role in this.

Fr. Steve:

Yeah, and strength and gentleness are not opposed to each other, I think is such an important point. To say, you know, "Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto thine," is not to say we ignore problems in the Church, we ignore challenges. But it is to say, we are radically committed to to living in and from the heart of Jesus and the solutions we seek are the solutions that, you know, Jesus gives us not just in truth, but in methods too, right? And the methods need to be with tremendous humility, with great love, with the desire that Jesus' heart has. That all may be one and not in a kind of, you know, burn the whole thing down.

Beth:

Burn it to the ground. Right. Yeah. Mother Teresa said, "If we have no peace, that is because we have forgotten that we belong to one another." Yeah.

Fr. Steve:

And so towards the end, the Archbishop writes, I think beautifully, "Our goal is not to win arguments, but to win souls." And oftentimes we win a soul, not by presenting the most coherent facts — sometimes that works. But most of the time it's through the attractiveness of holiness by desiring Jesus and loving as Jesus loved, which often costs more from myself, right? That I have to sacrifice. I have to be patient and endure, you know, the assault or the difficulties or people's brokenness and show the unflinching love of Jesus.

Beth:

Yeah. Well, we've talked before about the Apostolic Age. Oh my gosh, why can't I think of it?

Fr. Steve:

Yeah, from Christendom to Apostolic Age.

Beth:

Yes. Thank you. We talked about that before and just how, like the — what the world needs right now, because people are not following Christ. They don't know him. Right? What people need is for us to be apostles. They need us to be evangelizing. Well, how many of us are using social media to do that? Or are we just sharing internal Church politics and a complaint about this or the way they do Mass there, the way — that's not going to help us out in an apostolic age people. So maybe it's time for us to lean into more charity that we should have had back in Christendom anyway.

Fr. Steve:

And one of the challenges — maybe just the last point here, because I know I got to go and you want to embarrass me with a little quiz here, but one of the last points is, you know, as we have access to more information, it can be really easy to pick stories across the world that are embarrassing, right? Like, look what this priest did that he shouldn't have done. Or — and sometimes it's not as scandalous, it can just be like this, you know, like the way he sat, this was silly or kind of goofy, or look at this mistake a bishop made. Right? And you know, we have access to all these things. That's not — that doesn't lead to wisdom, these little nuggets of problems in the world doesn't lead to wisdom or holiness. It's just data points that that we know are out there. We know we live in a broken world that doesn't help us. What we need are ways to be committed radically to Jesus Christ and to worry about the people that God has put into my life. And first and foremost, you know, to try to take the log out of my own eye, as I try to grow in holiness so that I can help my brothers and sisters grow as well.

Beth:

Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, in that vein, you know, I'm in one of our post-podcast discussions, you said that you were not a dog person .And you said that you don't like telling people that because they may think you're a serial killer. And so I can see your point there.

Fr. Steve:

So let me just say, I don't despise dogs. I don't dislike dogs. I've never had a dog and I don't anticipate getting a dog. It's not something that I would do. So now I feel like the more I explain it the more guilty... [laughs]

Beth:

The worse it gets? Well, yeah. Well for, so, so for today's quiz, I'd like to ask you or give you an opportunity to name the top 10 dogs. Most popular dogs. Now this is by internet search. So, I mean, it's hard to measure people's hearts.

Fr. Steve:

What year is that? What data?

Beth:

It's current, it's current. So I'll give you as many guesses as you like. So you're thinking of the most popular dog. Okay.

Fr. Steve:

When I think of dogs, I think of golden retrievers.

Beth:

Golden Retrievers. Yes. That's number six.

Fr. Steve:

Number six.

Beth:

Nice work.

Fr. Steve:

Labradors. Labradors.

Beth:

Yep. That's number three. Nice.

Fr. Steve:

Poodles?

Beth:

Poodles are number seven. Okay. Nice work.

Fr. Steve:

I don't know if this will be on the list, but German shepherd.

Beth:

German shepherds are number two.

Fr. Steve:

Really? Wow, I don't see that many German.

Beth:

Kind of scary. I know. I guess people like them.

Fr. Steve:

My favorite kind of dog is a Siberian Husky.

Beth:

That's number four. I really didn't think you were going to get that one. Is it because they're so good — I mean, they're great looking dog.

Fr. Steve:

I think that's what it is. Yeah. Thanks.

Beth:

My husband thinks they're really cool too. They get hot really easily and have a lot of energy. I think it's a full-time job. Having a Husky. I've always wanted one because they look like wolves. I want my own wolf. I'll walk down the street with a wolf.

Fr. Steve:

If I have a dog, I'd want one. I'm a little bit afraid of like a Doberman-pincher. That's not on the list.

Beth:

Right. Okay. That's not on the list. No, I came to that one. No.

Fr. Steve:

There's a bunch of little dogs that I, so one of the priests I lived with had a beagle.

Beth:

A beagle. Nope. Can't give you a beagle.

Fr. Steve:

There's like a shih-tzu.

Beth:

Nope. Can't give you that. Not on there.

Fr. Steve:

There are there mixes. I've heard of like Labradoodles.

Beth:

There are no mixes. Nope. but the oodles are popular.

Fr. Steve:

I know another dog who had a bulldog.

Beth:

Bulldog's number one.

Fr. Steve:

Is it really?

Beth:

Yeah. You know, what's ironic is you've gotten all the big dogs and all the ones that are left are little dog, which could be more of a man thing. I mean, my husband's like, if we're getting a dog, we're getting a big dog. I'm not walking a little, well, I won't say what he said.

Fr. Steve:

Chihuahua?

Beth:

Chihuahuas number eight. Yep. Got Chihuahua.

Fr. Steve:

So I know a woman who's from the state of Chihuahua in Mexico. And I was like, is that where the dogs come from? And she laughed, she's like, no! [laughs]

Beth:

Did she appreciate that question?

Fr. Steve:

Why are they called that, right? I don't even know. Now. I haven't looked that up. Yeah. Bullmastiff?

Beth:

Nope. Those are big dogs.

Fr. Steve:

Yeah. I'll give you one more guess. Yeah. I don't know little dogs. So there's like the, I see like sometimes people put dogs in their purse. Yeah. Those are like really small.

Beth:

Those are really little ones. I don't really know what those are called. So the littlest littlest one is Pomeranian.

Fr. Steve:

I would not have gotten that.

Beth:

And then French bulldog.

Fr. Steve:

I said bulldog!

Beth:

But those are different things. French bulldogs are very expensive. And like a big deal.

Fr. Steve:

Ron's telling me they're the same. [laughs]

Beth:

Well, unfortunately I'm the one with the quiz. I didn't know where I found it. And then the last one, pugs. Pugs are bred so that they can't breathe properly. I don't know if you knew that I walked a buddy's pug and we walked two blocks and you would have thought we were torturing this dog. People were looking at us like, why are you making that dog walk that far? I'm like, literally he lives there. This is how far we've walked. People couldn't believe it! He was not a super healthy dog. So I feel bad about the pugs. They should be able to breathe. All right. Well, not bad, not bad. You got seven, correct. Out of the top 10 most popular dogs. So I think you've passed the test. Congratulations.

Fr. Steve:

That's a C! I'll take that. And let's commit ourselves brothers and sisters to the beauty of truth to living, engaging in communication. Whether it's communication we create or communication that we receive to bearing witness to our commitment to holiness in the midst of communicating especially through social media and other technological means, like podcasting!

Beth:

Like podcasts. Amen. Yes. Well, this has been another episode of Encounter Grow Witness podcast. Be sure to like and subscribe and tell everybody, you know. We want to have more people in our conversation.