Recorded at the Exchange ETF Conference in Las Vegas, host Ryan Nauman welcomes Michael Baron, co-president and portfolio manager at Baron Capital, to discuss the firm’s long-term growth investing philosophy and its expansion into ETFs. Baron explains that since 1982 the firm has focused on owning competitively advantaged businesses for years, emphasizing management quality, durable advantages, and valuations based on future earnings rather than near-term results. He describes how Baron Capital aims for consistency through market cycles by holding diversified types of growth companies. Baron outlines the rationale for launching five ETFs in December to complement their mutual fund lineup, citing investor demand for different vehicles and ETF benefits such as tax efficiency, tradability, and transparency, while keeping strategies core to the firm. He also notes mutual fund trading improvements and plans for additional ETFs.

Zephyr can help financial advisors create modern diversified portfolios. Learn more here.

Learn more about Baron Capital here.

00:00 Show Intro and Disclosures

00:37 Live From ETF Exchange

01:45 Baron Capital Philosophy

05:25 Growing Up Investing

10:34 Consistency Through Cycles

15:21 Why Launch ETFs Now

17:30 Inside the Five ETFs

20:52 Mutual Funds Learnings

23:12 Where to Learn More

24:23 Closing and Subscribe

Connect with Ryan Nauman: LinkedIn

Welcome to the Adjusted for Risk Podcast.

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Join myself, Brian Nauman as I

talk market investments economic.

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Let's get started in life,

as I hope prepare you for

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the upcoming week in markets.

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I work for Zephyr in all of express

by myself in my podcast, guests are

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solely of their own opinions and do not

reflect the opinion of Zephyr or Informa.

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Its contains company.

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This podcast is for information

purposes only and should not be

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relied on for investment decisions.

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Welcome everyone to zephyr's

adjusted for Risk podcast.

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We are recording on location at the

Exchange ETF conference in Las Vegas.

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You know, more and more asset

managers have started to

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offer ETFs in recent years.

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While my next guest in his asset

management firm are no different,

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he is going to share some great

insights about the innovations and how

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ETFs compliment their mutual funds.

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I'd like to give a very warm

welcome to Michael Baron.

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Michael is a co-president and

portfolio manager at Baron Capital.

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Michael.

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Thank you so much for

coming on the podcast.

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It's an honor to have you.

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I'm really excited

about this conversation.

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Can you tell us a little bit

about yourself and Barron Capital?

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Sure.

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Um, first of all, thank you for having me.

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Uh, this is, as you mentioned, we're

doing this on location, um, at a,

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a conference here in Las Vegas, and

it's actually my first ETF conference.

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So, so I'm a newbie here.

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Uh, but, uh, been been doing this for, for

a little bit in terms of asset management.

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Our firm obviously has

been doing it even longer.

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Uh, so I think the question was just tell

you a little bit about Barron Capital

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and, and how we got our start as I think

the name would suggest, you know, my

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dad, Ron Barron, he had been a traitor

previously and he had this epiphany, um,

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looking back at all the, the trades he

made and said, Hey, when you find these

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incredible businesses that fit the Barron

Capital philosophy and premise, it's

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better to own them for the long term.

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And I'll go into exactly

what that is in, in a second.

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Um.

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But as, as we've done that over,

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years, I guess at this point, not

much has changed with Baron Capital.

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We, we've, you know, we wanna be

known as the boutique equity growth

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manager, um, a long-term owner.

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And now at this next stage of the part

of the business, it's about extending

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the number of product structures, not

necessarily in terms of, of products,

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um, but what we do at Baron Capital

and what it, why it's so unique is.

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We're growth managers.

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Um, when you're owning businesses, I

think the average mutual funder or average

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manager out there owns businesses for 10

or 11 months, less than a year on average.

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You don't care.

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You don't care what the,

why others can't do this.

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You're, you're saying, what's it

gonna do next quarter or next year?

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We're thinking about what these businesses

can become over five years, 10 years,

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and it shows the numbers, you know, our

average holding period across the firm.

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I think it's around, uh, six years

or so when some of our larger

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strategies have been higher,

getting up to seven or eight years.

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Uh, so we really need to understand

the competitive advantage.

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What's the dream and why

can others not do this?

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And then finally, it's about people.

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We're we're, these are not

nameless faces organizations.

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These are true, uh, people, entrepreneurs

who are driving them, making decisions.

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It's, uh, it's actually the part of my

job that I love the most other than coming

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to this conference and sticking with you.

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It's, you know, going out and, and doing

research, talking to executives, talking

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to founders of businesses, understanding,

uh, what their vision is for them.

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What's their mission, uh, what's

their dream, um, where they've had

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successes in the past, where they've

had failures in the past, and really

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betting on them whether or not we think

they'll be successful in achieving

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the long term goals of that business.

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Um, and then finally, we're looking

to buy them at attractive prices and.

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That's also maybe an interesting

thing to talk about for a second.

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You know, people look at us

and growth investors and they

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say, oh, it it, it's expensive.

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You know, you're expensive.

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What they're, what they're either

doing today or, or what they're

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buying today with the, the prices.

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And when we look at valuations,

we're looking out into the future.

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In terms of what these businesses can

become, what they can earn in the future,

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and, and from those perspective, from

that perspective, very unique perspective.

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Uh, we'd like to, we find businesses

that we feel can double in value over

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the next five years and probably double

again four or five years after that.

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Michael, fantastic.

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I love that backdrop.

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And going back, uh, I told you this story

during our prep call, but years ago.

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Um, your father Ron?

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We used to, when I was in Seattle,

uh, with a financial advisory

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practice to plan sponsors.

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We loved Baron Growth Fund.

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We loved it as a, uh, I

love Barron Growth Fund too.

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Yeah.

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And, um, we had, Ron stopped by the office

and gosh, I was, I was young, Michael.

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I was early in the, early in my career,

early twenties, sitting there with.

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Myself and our CIO and just talking

to Ron, your dad, about what?

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Picking his brain.

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And it was like, that was one of

my highlights of early career.

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Now this is a new highlight.

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I'm not sure about that.

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Yeah.

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But it was just, now

it's come full circle.

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Having you, how was it growing up?

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Did you always just know like, I'm

gonna be working at Barron Capital?

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Was it one of like, for me, growing up,

my dad, uh, owned a little bit different.

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Dental technician office and everybody

was like, well Brian, you'll just

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take over your dad's business.

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Mm-hmm.

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And my dad was like, no, you're not.

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You are not gonna be making

teeth for the rest of your life.

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Go do something different.

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How was it growing up?

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Did you just know this

is what you wanted to do?

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Your dad's footsteps?

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Yeah, that's a, it's a great question.

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It's interesting question.

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It's a hard one to even answer.

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I mean, I don't know what I would've

done, uh, had my dad been anything else.

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Yeah.

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But he ingrained it in both

me and my brother David.

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And Sure.

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A young age, um, about investing

in our style investing, and

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it, it sounds, you know, awful.

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I guess maybe to others outsiders,

the way I just said it sounds, sounds

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awful, but to, but to my dad's credit,

he actually made it fun and interesting.

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We we're not talking about the macro,

we're not talking about, uh, concepts

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that are difficult for kids to understand.

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Um, and, and about trades.

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He spoke about businesses and

about what makes a business.

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Special and unique like I was talking

about earlier and about the people.

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And, and he would often say to me

that when we were a kid, you know, you

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early on, um, in first grade, you know

who the smart kid in your class is.

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You know who the good kid in your

class, you know who you wanna be

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friends with in, in your class.

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And that kind of follows you through.

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That's the people who we wanna invest

with, the people who we think are

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smart, trustworthy, that we get to

know like, um, and, and believe in.

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And then I have this incredible

job where I get to go out and.

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Meet them, speak to them, uh, hear

their stories, hear about what they

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think their business is gonna turn into

and how they're going to achieve it.

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Um, yeah, so I'm, I'm very fortunate

to have had him as a father

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really teaching me about this.

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Uh, and, and as I was talking about

earlier, you know, that philosophy

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when, whenever you met him, I guess

he said around 20 years ago, um,

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and, and then 40 years ago, 44 years

ago when we started the business.

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Nothing has changed with Baron Capital.

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It's the same investment philosophy

and, and, and, and process

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that we've implemented just

keeps on expanding and growing.

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And you know, we've started as a small

cap manager and when you're a successful

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small cap manager and you have a long term

horizon, your businesses go from small

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cap to mid cap to hopefully large cap

and, and happened in many, many cases.

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And we found that the same

investment philosophy and

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process really does work across.

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Market caps.

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It works across geographies.

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It works across sectors.

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And at this point, we've had around 19 or

20 different investment strategies across

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the firm that have been wildly successful.

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It's not me just saying it's, I

think we're the most successful,

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uh, growth equity manager out there.

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Um, and, and people say, well,

how can you possibly say that?

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You know, when you look at the stats,

we all know it's obviously very hard

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to beat the index yet 96% of our assets

beat their index since inception.

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For mutual fund assets be beat their

index since inception, and it's not

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just beating by a little bit, we're

not trying to be benchmark hugging and,

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and, and in that aspect, but 95% are in

the top 20% of the respective category.

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Yeah.

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And over 50% on the top 5% of

their category, including many

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funds that are in the, you know,

one percentile of their category.

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So it's this, this process and philosophy

that, as you were talking about earlier,

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you know, how did I get into it?

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He's been talking about and speaking

about it, and making it fun for me

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to, to hear about and listen, um, and

learn from him and, and learn from

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the other people that he brought on.

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Um, that, that's been, you

know, an incredible privilege.

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And, and it's worked.

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And I, but I do wanna be clear, uh.

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One thing I think my dad doesn't

get enough credit for, you know,

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he gets a lot of credit and, and,

and, you know, accolades for his

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investment style and, and, and ability.

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But it's the people that he's brought

on at Barron Capital in addition to him.

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So we all abide by the same investment

philosophy and premise that you

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keep talking about, but he's gotten

everyone at the firm to buy into it.

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So 215 employees across the firm,

45 investment professionals,

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approximately, um, you know, 20

ish or so portfolio managers.

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Everyone's doing the same thing.

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We're not making wid.

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So it's not like we can just, you know,

turn on a factory and just pump it out.

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But we all truly apply this philosophy

in, in a slightly different manner.

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Some might weight growth a little bit

more, some might weight the people a

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little more the competitive advantage

depending on what the strategy is

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and what you're trying to achieve.

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Um, but you kind of know what is a

barren capital type investment and

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that's how true for over 40 years.

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Michael, I love that.

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I love, I always enjoy a good story

or just, it's interesting how.

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Because we get so many different

people in this industry from

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all walks of life, right?

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They were like, I would've never

thought I was gonna be an investment

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management, or, oh, I knew early.

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I, I predated the business

by an entire year.

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So I got a head start.

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That's nice.

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I love it.

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So my, and I love that consistency.

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I talk a lot about, whenever I do

my research in Zephyr, it's about

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trying to find managers at either it's

consistent performance, consistent

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philosophy where they're not changing.

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For the flavor of the month,

whatever that flavor is.

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If value is now up, performing,

changing their value, chasing

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that, uh, chasing returns, how

have you guys been able to do it?

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You said like your people, they all

know what their, you know, it's a

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growth, their investment philosophy,

they buy into that culture.

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They know the culture,

which is so important.

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But how have you guys been able to

stay so consistent over the years?

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That's a great question.

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Being consistent is hard, um, especially

in, in, you know, volatile markets.

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Um, you know, if you're consistent

in philosophy and you have markets

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that are volatile, there's obviously

gonna be times that you underperform

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and we're comfortable with that.

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We probably out underperform the market,

uh, probably once every three years.

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I think we, we've seen, look back

at many of our funds and strategies,

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so, so once every three years we'll

underperform, not by a lot, but by little.

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And then we obviously do.

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Significantly better on, on the

better years, on the up years, um,

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to, you know, have our, our long-term

track record be what it is today.

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One of the things that I'm most

proud of in terms of our portfolio

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performance isn't necessarily how you

do in any one given year, um, but how

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you do over the course of a psych.

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Um, you know, how'd you do

when times are good and how'd

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you do when times are are bad?

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And interestingly for growth

managers, people kind of assume

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that, okay, well times are good.

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That's when you really

shoot the lights up.

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And when you look at our numbers, when

times are good, we do good, we do better.

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Um, but just a bit better.

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And what really, where we earn,

um, our, our reputation is we've

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been able to protect investors

on more challenging time periods.

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'cause we own these high

quality growth businesses and.

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It's not just that we own

high quality growth business.

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'cause I think it's a hard thing

for people to understand and

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define, but you need to have

balance and ballas in the portfolio.

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You need to have companies that

don't all trade in the same manner.

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And even in our more concentrated

portfolios like Baron Partners Fund

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on the mutual fund side things, Baron

focused growth on the mutual fund side.

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Things both in the top percentile of the

respective categories since inception

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and now we, we launched on December 15th.

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Um, an officer that, a concentrated

portfolio called Baron First Principles

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ticker Ron B and assume you can

assume who it was named after.

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So, Baron first principles

on, on the contract.

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So even in these concentrated

portfolios of 20, 25 names, we

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find companies that act differently

in different market environments.

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We, we have these steady

core growth businesses.

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We have these big, disruptive, big

ideas, you know, that, that, that.

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Prove out over the long time that,

that have that accelerated growth.

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We find growth businesses on the real

estate side of things that when there's

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high inflation environments that they will

do well, we find, um, growth businesses

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on the financial side of things that,

that do well in, in more challenging,

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you know, interest rate environments.

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Um, so having this diversity of growth

businesses allows us to consistently

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out do well over the long term,

even though we might not do well.

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Or as well as the market.

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Any one given quarter,

even one given year.

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And we're comfortable with that.

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And I think our clients know that

and understand that, and they

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invest with us for the long term.

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Yeah, I think that's a very important

Michael, because there's studies

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that show active manager they're

gonna outperform or underperform.

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It, it's given, there's gonna be periods

of underperformance, like you said.

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It's how you handle it.

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You're not hiding it.

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It's gonna happen.

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But also do you think that there's a,

kind of that misconception you said

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because you own high quality growth

names, you protect some on the downside

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during those bad market tough market

cycles that you know, that might

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be a misnomer for growth managers.

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You think growth managers

we're high volatility we're

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gonna lose on that downside.

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You think that's kind of a misconception

on the growth side and you guys are kind

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of proves that it's a misconception.

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By the way, I'm hearing you say, you know,

we own high quality growth and, and I, I

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said it previously and I know my dad hates

it when I say that, when anyone says this.

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'cause it's kind of like, how do

you define how quality and, and

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for us defining high quality.

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This competitive advantage aspect, you

know, the companies that even in a period

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of time when things might be out of favor

for them, um, that others aren't gonna

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come in and really disrupt them, that

they're not going to be left behind.

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Uh, and, and many of these businesses

are, you know, investing in themselves

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and, and penalizing their short term

earnings for that greater potential.

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But, but if we feel that their

competitive advantage remains intact.

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That allows us to remain an owner

of these, these businesss that

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we define it as higher quality.

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Um, sorry, I went off on a tangent.

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Did I answer the question?

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Missed question?

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No, that's fantastic.

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It was just more like that misconception

because you had mentioned it being,

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you know, you kind of protect on the

downside there, you know, a little

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bit more protection there during bond

market cycles are doing something

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a little bit different there.

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Yeah, we try.

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Yeah.

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So 1982.

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Right.

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That's the inception

of, uh, Baron Capital.

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In December, you guys

launched five new ETFs.

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Congrats.

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Hence why we're at Exchange

the ET TF conference.

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Exactly right.

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What was your thought process and

launching ETFs after, you know, 40

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years of mutual funds, successful mutual

funds going into getting into ETFs?

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Um.

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That's a great question in terms

of what we did and why we did it.

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Uh, the business was really built around.

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We have this a mission at our businesses

as well, and it's about changing lives.

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It's about changing the lives of our,

of our clients, of our investors.

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And, you know, a big percentage of

our assets are in the private wealth.

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We'll keep the mutual funds, keep

our clients that are appropriate,

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but it's about segmenting the client

appropriately and giving them the.

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Uh, wrapper, the vehicle that is, is best

suited for them in, in the, in the, for

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the strategy that's best suited for them.

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So that being said, um, if you really

want to change lives of your clients,

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you need to meet them where they want

to be met, and that you need to give

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them the, the structure that they want.

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And there's a lot of advantages of.

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The ETF wrapper from our operational

efficiency, from, from tax efficiency, um,

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from tradability, uh, and transparency.

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Uh, I'm sure your listeners

all all know these.

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Um, by the way, there's a lot of advantage

of the mutual funds too by making sure

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that we weren't gonna do a disservice to

our existing clients by offering this,

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by being able to release this daily

transparency, um, by having tradability.

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Um, once we got comfortable with all

those factors, uh, we decided to launch.

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And what was interesting when I noticed,

when I see so many people that were,

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you know, in our same shoes and,

and, and launching, they would launch

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strategies that weren't working, that

weren't working for them in the mutual

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fund format, or, or weren't, you know,

wasn't really true to who they were.

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It was kind of a, um, just an offshoot

and that's not what we wanted to do.

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We wanted to do things

that were truly core.

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To Baron Capital, um, what we're

known for, and obviously the

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first thing that we're known

for is small and mid cap growth.

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Investing around, around half of our

assets right now are in small and

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growth, you know, strateg, I mean, small

and, and mid cap strategies have been

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even more, but obviously with the run

in, in the mega caps, uh, as opposed

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to appreciation and it's come down to

it, usually around two thirds are in.

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Or in small and mid cap.

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So we wanted to do a, a, a small

cap and a mid cap strategy.

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Um, we have three small cap strategies to.

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Uh, mid cap strategies.

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We never had a smid, a small

and mid cap strategy combined.

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Um, and, and so that made sense

to be offering in the ETF fabric,

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a little bit more liquidity to

be able to go across market caps.

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As I was talking about earlier with

the, our success in concentrated

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portfolios, Baron Partners Fund

and, and Baron focused growth.

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We want to a contrary portfolio

and that's Baron first principle.

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Uh, we have a great, uh, strategy

in the US uh, for durable advantage.

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These are.

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Uh, large cap later stage

growth companies that are able

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to have excess free cash flow.

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Uh, we're now gonna deal

with that on a global level.

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And then we converted

two of our sector funds.

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Um, Baron Technology, ETF was was a,

it was a conversion from a mutual fund.

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Um, what was interesting about that?

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We have a great.

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Uh, strategy Baron.

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Opportunity Mutual Fund.

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Baron.

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This is a a and I hate

using these adjectives.

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Don't mean anything like great and,

and, and excellent or whatever,

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but, but to show how great it is.

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There was just an article in, I

believe it was Morningstar, talking

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about Baron Opportunity Fund.

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This is our higher growth,

um, all cap strategy.

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And on a mutual fund side.

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Baron Opportunity Fund was the best

performing mutual fund over the past

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25 years, from 2000 through 2025.

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Um.

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Okay.

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Baron Tech is a little bit

of an offshoot of that.

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I think around 70% overlap

in, in terms of names holding.

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So a little bit more concentrated, purely

on, on the tech side of things, um, to

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obviously know how to do high growth.

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And then financials, uh, was a

conversion as well as I was talking

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about earlier, that we have a big.

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Belief in, in growth financials.

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Not just financials,

they're not commoditized.

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Financials, not banks,

but, but growth financials.

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And that's allowed us to do well.

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An interesting stat I just saw out of

our firm, we have around 18 or 19% of

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our assets are in financial companies.

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Okay?

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For the s and p 500, I

think it's around 12%.

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For the Russell 3000

growth, it's around 5%.

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So we're significantly

overweight financial, the firm.

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Um, led to be, you know, had great

benefits to our portfolios and our

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investors as a result of that, you know,

finding these high quality, um, growth

392

investments in the financial, um, area.

393

Um, and now we're just bringing that

out for other investors to use it, you

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know, to tack onto their existing other

portfolios to give them that, that, uh,

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balance and balance that they typically

don't get in, in most growth portfolios.

396

Yeah, I love it.

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Michael, I'm glad you brought up how.

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Really, it's to compliment your

ETFs to your mutual fund business

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to give, you know, like you

said, it's people's lives change.

400

You know, giving them different

vehicles to help them, whether

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their mutual funds aren't going

anywhere, like you said, right?

402

But offering ETFs, it just

helps them, you know, um, maybe

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create better portfolios, right?

404

And so that aligned with what they

need and their objectives and so on.

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Lastly.

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S real quickly, you know, mutual funds.

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How have mutual funds, you know,

you guys have been, um, you know,

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have had great success over 40

some years with their mutual funds.

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How have mutual funds evolved

based on the success of ETFs?

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Have they, like, is there anything

mutual funds have taken from the success

411

of ETFs and be like, Hey, maybe we

can do this within a mutual fund wrap?

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Um.

413

Yes.

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I, I, I don't think mutual funds, at

least us, at, at our mutual fund, you

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know, business, we're not sitting still.

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Uh, we are obviously always trying to

give a better product to our investors.

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And, and one of the biggest, um,

one downfall we've had that some

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of our investors have said are

critique we they've had on our

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mutual funds is when we rebalance.

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Um, and when, when we get outta one

position in order to get into another

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position, it, it happens rarely.

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As I was talking about, you know,

our average holding period being in.

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Um, depending on the actual

strategy, anywhere between four

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to eight years or something.

425

Um, but when it does, uh, it can

be costly and we've entered into

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contracts with, with, you know, big

institutions, big banks, in order to

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make us rebalance more cost effectively.

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Uh, let them do the trading for

us as opposed to us impacting the,

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the price and, and, and timeline.

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Um, it allows us to get, you

know, out of position to allow

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us to get into new positions.

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And the ancillary benefit is it's

a non-taxable event, uh, when we're

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able to, to rebalance that portfolio.

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So it's been a big, uh, win

for our, for our clients.

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So it's a, a more cost effective

way of rebalancing our portfolios.

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Um, I do wanna mention before

we do go, you know, you were

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talking about why these five.

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On the ETF side of things and you

know, like I was saying, it was,

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it, it's a very important five.

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It's who we are.

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Bearing capital, it's like, you know,

the essence of us, whether it be small

442

cap or concentrated or, or, you know,

higher growth things or financials.

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Um, it's not gonna be our last five and

we've already filed for, for two more.

444

And I would expect over the

coming years, uh, you'll see

445

more new strategies come from us.

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You'll see some conversions come

from us, um, but it's really.

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Taking this approach and matching

the investment strategy with to

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the client to in, in the structure

that makes the most sense for them.

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Um, and that's what we'll continue to do.

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Awesome, Michael, fantastic conversation.

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I love it.

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Great insight.

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I love just hearing the backdrop,

the inner workings up barren capital.

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What makes it so special?

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Special place.

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Michael.

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Where can our audience get more

information about Baron Capital?

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Uh, sure.

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Um, come visit us.

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Uh, obviously the first play thing to do

is to go to, uh, baron capital group.com.

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One of the thing I do wanna mention is,

you know, we're not a firm that's about

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advertising and, and, and putting big

ads out there and, and, you know, splashy

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content and all of a sudden people.

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Finding us and hearing about

us and, and investing with us.

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We wanna have real conversations, um,

with advisors about their clients'

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needs and what their objectives

are, and finding the, like I said,

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the right, uh, strategy and the

right, you know, structure for them.

468

So we've really built out our

distribution team, whether it be on

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the, on the RIA side of things or on

the wholesaling side of things, um,

470

to have those kind of conversations.

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So the first thing to do is obviously

come to our website, but then drop us

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a line and, and let us come visit you.

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Um, and have that conversation about

what is the right, uh, strategy and

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structure for you and your clients.

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I love it.

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Michael, thank you so much.

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It's been a fun conversation, honor to

have you on, and thank you everyone for

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joining this or listening to this episode

of zephyr's Adjusted for Risk podcast.

479

You can watch all of our other episodes

on the Zephyr YouTube channel and Spotify.

480

Please be sure to like subscribe to those

channels and give us a follow on LinkedIn.

481

Thank you very much and have

a great rest of your week.

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