How are local brewers making the Fox Cities a destination for brewing? Gary Arndt, Bobby Fleshman, and Allison McCoy are joined again by special guests Steve Lonsway of the Stone Arch Brewery and Oliver Behm from the Hop Yard. The discussion centers around the potential for the Fox Cities area to become a craft beer destination for more than just locals. The guests share insights on what it takes for a community to attract beer tourists, the cultural impact of breweries, and the collaboration required among local brewers to foster a vibrant beer scene.

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Guest Bios

Steve Lonsway

Stonearch Brew Pub, Owner, Founder, CEO

https://www.stonearchbrewpub.com/

Steve's brewing journey began in college in 1991 after discovering his passion for home brewing. Partnering with his father and brother, they established Homebrew Market in 1993 then Steve further honed his skills at the Siebel Institute of Brewing Technology in 1996. As Corporate Brew Master of a local brewery, he oversaw multiple locations before starting Stone Arch with his father in 2004. Steve enjoys traveling with his wife, two daughters and rescue dog, supporting the Chicago Bears, and finding solace in his yard and parlor.

Oliver Behm,

Hop Yard Ale Works, Owner, Founder, Brewer

https://hopyardaleworks.com/

Oliver & Amy Behm were born and raised in the Fox Valley. Their passion for food & love for beer took them on many adventures across the county. What they created for you is a collaboration of the best parts of their memories.

Their wish is you enjoy the atmosphere, community and brewery experience as much as they did to risk it all, and follow their dreams!

00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction

00:19 The Rise of Craft Beer Destinations

01:19 Fox Cities as a Craft Beer Destination

03:46 Challenges and Collaboration in the Craft Beer Industry

11:18 Promoting Appleton and Fox Cities as Beer Destinations

15:47 The Charm of Appleton's Downtown

16:20 Craft Beer and Community Growth

19:20 The Evolution of Appleton's Bar Scene

20:17 Family and Community at Breweries

23:53 The Role of Regulars in Brewery Success

25:47 Expanding Brewery Locations and Challenges

29:24 Conclusion and Podcast Wrap-Up

--

CREDITS

Hosts:

Bobby Fleshman

Allison McCoy-Fleshman

Gary Ardnt

Music by Sarah Lynn Huss

Recorded & Produced by David Kalsow

Brought to you by McFleshman's Brewing Co

Mentioned in this episode:

Join us for Lager Fest on October 5

Get your ticket today for a commemorative glass and all-you-can lager from over 20 breweries! https://mcfleshmans.ticketspice.com/lagerfest-2024 Music by Dvorak Polka Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/

Gary Arndt: 00:00:04

Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of respecting the beer.

Gary Arndt: 00:00:07

My name is Gary Arndt.

Gary Arndt: 00:00:08

With me as usual is Bobby Fleshman Allison McCoy, and we also have our guests from our previous episode, Steve Lonsway and Oliver Behm from the Hop Yard and the Stone Arch Brewery.

Gary Arndt: 00:00:19

Last time we talked about how you guys got into brewing this episode, I want to talk about this area, the city as a destination for beer.

Gary Arndt: 00:00:28

Last episode, you mentioned Asheville as a destination.

Gary Arndt: 00:00:31

Either people probably mentioned, I think, Boulder, Colorado as a place that has a big craft beer scene maybe Portland I used to be before I did what I do now.

Gary Arndt: 00:00:40

I used to be involved in the travel industry.

Gary Arndt: 00:00:42

I was a travel writer and it was a running joke.

Gary Arndt: 00:00:45

That Tourist boards would for every community in the country started talking about their craft beer scene.

Gary Arndt: 00:00:50

So this has become very popular It used to be back in the day that every city may have had one brewery.

Gary Arndt: 00:00:57

So in Wisconsin the George Walter Brewing Company.

Gary Arndt: 00:01:00

Adler Brau was the Appleton.

Gary Arndt: 00:01:02

Chief Oshkosh had one.

Gary Arndt: 00:01:04

Point Brewery, they're still around was the Stevens Point one.

Gary Arndt: 00:01:08

That kind of went away It consolidated into very big breweries.

Gary Arndt: 00:01:13

And now you're seeing kind of the opposite where it's fragmenting again, but each community now has multiple brewery.

Gary Arndt: 00:01:19

How do you think that this area of the Fox Cities is becoming a destination for craft beer?

Gary Arndt: 00:01:27

That are you seeing people coming here specifically to visit breweries?

Steve Lonsway: 00:01:31

For sure.

Steve Lonsway: 00:01:32

A absolutely.

Steve Lonsway: 00:01:34

it also takes more than breweries.

Steve Lonsway: 00:01:36

You have to have preferably a safe environment.

Steve Lonsway: 00:01:40

You need to have parking, you need to have all those other things.

Steve Lonsway: 00:01:43

When I travel, I specifically will go to places where there is multiple opportunities to visit breweries.

Steve Lonsway: 00:01:50

I'm not into distilleries.

Steve Lonsway: 00:01:52

I am not as much into wineries.

Steve Lonsway: 00:01:54

It's, it's.

Steve Lonsway: 00:01:55

100 percent breweries and I will pick a town that has four or five versus a town that has two or three because that gives me more opportunities and I'll make sure that I visit every one.

Steve Lonsway: 00:02:06

So when you asked in the last episode that, hey, you know, how many can this town handle?

Steve Lonsway: 00:02:13

It's yet to be found.

Steve Lonsway: 00:02:14

But I think more because.

Steve Lonsway: 00:02:17

I invite that because then all of a sudden we have as many as maybe the neighboring town and then we get those people like me that want to hit numerous breweries.

Oliver Behm: 00:02:27

I think Appleton has a great beer culture.

Oliver Behm: 00:02:30

I think maybe it's still too far towards the, you know, bush light, bud light, Miller light crowd right now.

Oliver Behm: 00:02:37

But I, I do think the craft beer is growing.

Oliver Behm: 00:02:41

I think Appleton's got a long ways to go.

Oliver Behm: 00:02:43

And I think.

Oliver Behm: 00:02:44

That can be a positive meaning.

Oliver Behm: 00:02:46

I always look at the Fox Valley areas, like five to 10 years behind everyone else.

Oliver Behm: 00:02:50

So like here's the IPAs, for example, that's kind of old hat in Madison and Milwaukee, but fairly new in Appleton for some reason I think just the, the people here a little bit slower to change.

Oliver Behm: 00:03:02

I've seen that in my place anyways, and it only being open for a couple of years.

Oliver Behm: 00:03:06

You know, I just, I always look at, like, the beer markets by us.

Oliver Behm: 00:03:09

So it's, you know, it's Appleton.

Oliver Behm: 00:03:10

There's Green Bay.

Oliver Behm: 00:03:11

There's Madison, Milwaukee.

Oliver Behm: 00:03:13

I think Green Bay has a bit of a more destination just because of the Packers.

Oliver Behm: 00:03:18

And I think we've all talked about it as a group of like, how do we, how do we make Appleton a better beer culture where people are coming for breweries, going to all of them?

Oliver Behm: 00:03:27

I think it happens, but I think there's a lot of room for growth for all of us.

Oliver Behm: 00:03:31

And, future can be really cool because that means we're going to make a lot of changes or maybe there's new breweries coming or distillery or whatever have you.

Oliver Behm: 00:03:39

That's going to be really cool for tourists who want to come to this town and see how we're changing things.

Oliver Behm: 00:03:44

So we're really excited about that.

Gary Arndt: 00:03:46

Just out of curiosity, and I don't know the answer to this.

Gary Arndt: 00:03:48

Are there any breweries that have failed here?

Oliver Behm: 00:03:52

Yes.

Steve Lonsway: 00:03:53

Yeah.

Steve Lonsway: 00:03:53

No Fox Classic.

Steve Lonsway: 00:03:55

I was in school at the time.

Steve Lonsway: 00:03:56

They, shut down, I think in 92, maybe 93.

Steve Lonsway: 00:04:01

Yeah.

Gary Arndt: 00:04:02

Not since like the most recent craft beer revival.

Steve Lonsway: 00:04:05

No, no.

Steve Lonsway: 00:04:07

I, the, the, the gentleman that we took over was sustaining, that he was pretty early into it.

Steve Lonsway: 00:04:14

So I don't know if he would have continued his success.

Steve Lonsway: 00:04:18

I think he would have.

Steve Lonsway: 00:04:19

But yeah, I don't think there was a failure

Allison McCoy: 00:04:21

so far.

Allison McCoy: 00:04:21

So good Yeah,

Oliver Behm: 00:04:22

I mean I I think I was at a conference a couple months ago and they were talking about like The beer scene right now is growing but it's not growing nearly as rapidly as it used to so it's you know The saturation point where are we in that kind of thing?

Oliver Behm: 00:04:39

And they were basically saying you know, if you're doing really, really well in your town, you could be hurting another brewery because of where we're at right now with saturation levels and things of that nature.

Oliver Behm: 00:04:50

So, to go back to our point in our last.

Oliver Behm: 00:04:53

podcast about us working together.

Oliver Behm: 00:04:55

That was the whole point of this, this discussion was get involved with your other breweries because you need to keep each other upright.

Oliver Behm: 00:05:02

And if we all work together, that can be done.

Oliver Behm: 00:05:05

But if one guy goes out on their own and like, we're just going to be us and do our thing and we're going to hurt everybody.

Oliver Behm: 00:05:10

They're going to probably, especially if they're busy, they're going to hurt another brewery.

Oliver Behm: 00:05:13

So, it kind of forces us all to work together and we want to anyways.

Allison McCoy: 00:05:18

Yeah, and I think location too has a big play in that because so we're in downtown Fleshman's is Appleton Beer Factory.

Allison McCoy: 00:05:25

I can see it.

Allison McCoy: 00:05:26

It's right through the window.

Allison McCoy: 00:05:28

We are exactly 10 paces apart and we so we will have folks come in and they're like, Oh, you know, tell us about the local breweries.

Allison McCoy: 00:05:34

We're like, okay, have you had dinner yet?

Allison McCoy: 00:05:36

Had you not had dinner yet?

Allison McCoy: 00:05:37

Where are you staying?

Allison McCoy: 00:05:38

And they're like, Oh, we're staying downtown.

Allison McCoy: 00:05:39

We're like, great.

Allison McCoy: 00:05:40

Go across the street or go across the alley.

Allison McCoy: 00:05:41

You're going to get a pint there.

Allison McCoy: 00:05:43

Then you're going to go down and get the best cheese curds in the state at Stone Arch.

Allison McCoy: 00:05:46

But then if they're like, Oh, we're actually staying down the street or we're staying somewhere else.

Allison McCoy: 00:05:50

We're like, Oh, great.

Allison McCoy: 00:05:51

Okay.

Allison McCoy: 00:05:51

You've got a car.

Allison McCoy: 00:05:52

Cool.

Allison McCoy: 00:05:52

Hop yards up north.

Allison McCoy: 00:05:53

It's on Northland.

Allison McCoy: 00:05:54

And so we try and strategize people's experience.

Allison McCoy: 00:05:57

Because we're not a town that has just all these breweries right next to each other.

Allison McCoy: 00:06:01

It just so happens that ABF and us are.

Allison McCoy: 00:06:03

But depending on where the people are going and what people are doing, I think this is where the conversation comes in.

Allison McCoy: 00:06:08

Because we know each other's businesses, we can kind of strategize, like, Oh, this is, this is where we're going.

Allison McCoy: 00:06:13

This, this is how we get craft beer followers to then immerse themselves if they're from out of town.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:06:18

And it, it occurs to me that really what we're trying to do is catch the fleeting attention of the consumer.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:06:25

Cause they're, we're competing against so many things inside and outside of the hospitality world.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:06:30

And I think us working together to provide music and food and experience together is important for sure.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:06:36

We're competing against a lot of stuff.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:06:38

Yeah.

Oliver Behm: 00:06:38

We actually had a map on our wall for the first two years.

Oliver Behm: 00:06:41

That would say where to go next and then we put all the other breweries on there so that people like if they were coming to our place off the highway.

Oliver Behm: 00:06:49

Maybe they want to know where, you know, another brewery is.

Oliver Behm: 00:06:52

So we'd have this map and it would show like, go here, go here.

Oliver Behm: 00:06:54

Which is kind of cool people to actually utilize.

Steve Lonsway: 00:06:57

And the end of the day, Oliver's in my place are the furthest apart.

Steve Lonsway: 00:07:02

And what I, what is that?

Steve Lonsway: 00:07:03

Two and a half, maybe three miles in a big city.

Steve Lonsway: 00:07:06

That's next door.

Steve Lonsway: 00:07:07

So we're exactly.

Steve Lonsway: 00:07:08

Yeah.

Steve Lonsway: 00:07:08

So bike friendly for sure.

Steve Lonsway: 00:07:10

Oh, absolutely.

Steve Lonsway: 00:07:11

Walk friendly, maybe not as much, but with Uber and all that fizzling mall.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:07:17

If you extend that radius to 10 miles, you probably can include another 10 or 12 breweries.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:07:23

I don't even try to name them.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:07:24

I'll forget them, but sure.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:07:25

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:07:25

It's there's, there's enough here.

Allison McCoy: 00:07:27

And actually to your question, one of those actually did close, just this past year.

Allison McCoy: 00:07:31

And so in the larger,

Bobby Fleshman: 00:07:33

that was in, Neenah?

Bobby Fleshman: 00:07:35

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:07:36

It's so, I don't know how much we want to peel back the layers of that, but there, there are some economical challenges that we can't ignore.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:07:42

And their issue was to do with their leaseholder or their, their landlord.

Allison McCoy: 00:07:48

But it also, I mean, it goes along with what Oliver so poignantly said, and I'm going to steal it a hundred million times over is that it's, this is the most expensive way to make beer here to enjoy beer.

Allison McCoy: 00:07:59

it's, it.

Allison McCoy: 00:08:00

It is everything shiny is expensive, but also labor costs, because in order to run these little breweries, it takes people and we want to pay them, you know, what they're worth.

Allison McCoy: 00:08:11

And so it's just very, very thin margins.

Allison McCoy: 00:08:14

so some, some breweries, if we don't have that community, we'll get hit by those margins.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:08:19

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:08:19

And you have to start with quality beer.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:08:20

I think that goes with that saying, if anyone's still open today, they're, they, They probably have quality beer or an infinite source of, of, capital to keep it afloat.

Steve Lonsway: 00:08:30

And consistently quality.

Steve Lonsway: 00:08:33

Back in the nineties.

Steve Lonsway: 00:08:34

And I've lived through the ebbs and flows of this industry.

Steve Lonsway: 00:08:38

There was a lot of startups in the nineties that just turned out terrible beer.

Steve Lonsway: 00:08:43

And that affects all of us.

Steve Lonsway: 00:08:44

And in getting back to the cohabitation that we have, we need Oliver to make great beer.

Steve Lonsway: 00:08:51

We need McFleshman's to make good beer because otherwise these people won't drink craft beer.

Steve Lonsway: 00:08:56

And.

Steve Lonsway: 00:08:57

I've seen it.

Steve Lonsway: 00:08:58

Now I know when a new brewery comes in, I'm, I'm a little apprehensive sometimes to try it.

Steve Lonsway: 00:09:03

It's true.

Steve Lonsway: 00:09:03

I'm super happy.

Steve Lonsway: 00:09:04

And I'll say that honestly to you, Oliver, having the first beer that I had of yours, like, Oh, thank God.

Steve Lonsway: 00:09:10

It's good.

Steve Lonsway: 00:09:12

Right.

Steve Lonsway: 00:09:12

Thank God.

Steve Lonsway: 00:09:12

You liked it.

Steve Lonsway: 00:09:13

Yeah.

Steve Lonsway: 00:09:13

Thank God.

Steve Lonsway: 00:09:14

Cause it couldn't reckon an industry or a destination.

Oliver Behm: 00:09:18

Yeah.

Oliver Behm: 00:09:18

I think people don't realize in this industry just how fragile it really is to operate a brewery.

Oliver Behm: 00:09:25

You know, when customers come in, they see a bunch of people there and they're like, wow, this place is really rocking.

Oliver Behm: 00:09:29

And they're running the numbers.

Oliver Behm: 00:09:30

Yeah.

Oliver Behm: 00:09:31

They're like, oh my God, they're making so much money and they don't realize how expensive it really is to run and operate a brewery.

Oliver Behm: 00:09:37

And if you're a brewery, whether you started with, you know, a huge system or you grew into it like we're just trying to grow and it's like every time I turn around, it's just massive amounts of money that you have to buy equipment for.

Oliver Behm: 00:09:50

And that's just if everything runs smoothly, the moment something breaks, you have to figure out how to fix it because you can't afford to buy another one or even pay someone to fix it.

Oliver Behm: 00:09:59

So that's like helping each other out comes to mind.

Oliver Behm: 00:10:02

Like I bought a pump to get our barrel age beer out and it didn't work and we were You know, covered in beer and we're like pulling her hair out, you know, we want to cry.

Oliver Behm: 00:10:11

Well, call Bobby.

Oliver Behm: 00:10:12

He had the right pump, saved the day, you know, and that's how we have to work together because we just can't afford to go out and buy.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:10:19

There's no less than five breweries that borrow that pump has assigned.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:10:22

I'm going to need it again, by the way.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:10:24

It sits idle and it's fine.

Allison McCoy: 00:10:26

Well, and that is because we at least through the university or through various avenues, we can find used equipment and we've gotten like, we've had so many just issues of like, Oh, if only we had this one thing.

Allison McCoy: 00:10:38

And so to the internet, you go and eBay is our best friend only.

Allison McCoy: 00:10:41

We've bought so much stuff off eBay.

Allison McCoy: 00:10:43

But you just start to collect this equipment because you know, it's going to solve some problem.

Allison McCoy: 00:10:46

You don't even know yet.

Allison McCoy: 00:10:47

That's going to happen.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:10:49

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:10:49

You start to gain a sixth sense of what's going to break next to Allison can attest to this.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:10:54

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:10:54

Yeah,

Allison McCoy: 00:10:55

Bobby wakes up at 6:00 AM and he's just like, or actually 6:00 AM That's a liar.

Allison McCoy: 00:10:59

You're up at three anyway.

Allison McCoy: 00:11:01

And he is just like the glycol today.

Allison McCoy: 00:11:03

I sense it.

Allison McCoy: 00:11:04

Lo and behold, the glycol has a button going off or a, but a bell.

Gary Arndt: 00:11:09

There's this overlap in the morning where both, Bobby and I are up , but on completely different end of our day.

Gary Arndt: 00:11:18

I've mentioned in the last episode, you're kind of competitors, but it also seems there's maybe even a greater element of rising tides, lift all boats.

Gary Arndt: 00:11:25

So with that, what have you done and what do you think you can do going forward?

Gary Arndt: 00:11:31

Perhaps that's a better question for promoting Appleton and the Fox Cities as a destination for beer?

Gary Arndt: 00:11:38

How did, how does this become the new Asheville?

Allison McCoy: 00:11:41

Fox Valley Lager Fest the first Saturday in October?

Oliver Behm: 00:11:44

Oh, nice plug.

Oliver Behm: 00:11:45

And like, Oh, look at that.

Oliver Behm: 00:11:46

Nice.

Oliver Behm: 00:11:46

Very nice.

Oliver Behm: 00:11:48

I mean, I think like we're working on a IPA festival for next summer, which I think would be fun.

Oliver Behm: 00:11:53

I mean, we need quite a bit to talk about like how we can accomplish this and there's I, there's not one specific answer and I don't even know if we all know what it's going to take.

Oliver Behm: 00:12:04

I mean, and then, I mean, sometimes it's just.

Oliver Behm: 00:12:06

luck there are things that I think that we can control and help in those endeavors, but I don't think we have the answer.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:12:13

From, from my perspective.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:12:15

I, I think, ironically, to become a beer destination, you think less and less about the beer.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:12:21

So, once, once you have the beer, right?

Bobby Fleshman: 00:12:23

And you, and you know, that's done.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:12:25

You've got to move on.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:12:26

You don't, you don't just continue to make more iterations on the beer.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:12:28

I don't think that works like it used to.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:12:30

I think you have to think, what am I going to add from outside the sphere?

Bobby Fleshman: 00:12:33

Because we're competing against spirits and, RTDs, these seltzers and so on and so on and so on.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:12:38

So we have to figure out: how to overlap with that without selling our soul.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:12:42

I think that's the key to making a successful beer destination.

Gary Arndt: 00:12:46

Become a destination for premium white claw.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:12:49

Right, exactly.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:12:50

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:12:51

That's a slippery slope.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:12:52

Once we have 25 seltzers on tap, we may have gone too far.

Steve Lonsway: 00:12:55

No, we we've talked and we still need to finalize some details.

Steve Lonsway: 00:12:59

And I think it's a direction that we need to go create, create our own craft beer week.

Steve Lonsway: 00:13:04

There is a national one, which is awesome.

Steve Lonsway: 00:13:06

It brings a lot of attention to our industry.

Steve Lonsway: 00:13:09

But doing our own, I know other communities have done it, we treat our own craft beer week, whereas we bring in people from out of town to solely search out the three, four or five breweries in our direct region and, and build off of that.

Steve Lonsway: 00:13:25

I think that's a great start.

Steve Lonsway: 00:13:27

We all have great beer.

Steve Lonsway: 00:13:28

We all bring different things to the table, whether it be music or food or pizzas or, or whatever.

Steve Lonsway: 00:13:34

We have a lot to show off and, I'm fortunate with what you were saying, Bobby, Besides beer, we're fortunate cause we have that food aspect, but then you have the music, so there are other things.

Steve Lonsway: 00:13:46

And I think if we pull that all together and I think there's enough brain cells that to stay able, that we could come up with some pretty cool ideas.

Steve Lonsway: 00:13:53

And for sure,

Oliver Behm: 00:13:54

But also to your point that you made earlier it takes the community as well.

Oliver Behm: 00:13:57

It's not just the breweries.

Oliver Behm: 00:13:59

I mean, when we go to, let's say, even as close as Milwaukee or Madison it's also involves a hotel stay and it involves restaurants, like where we're going to eat that kind of thing.

Oliver Behm: 00:14:08

So I think it's not just the breweries it's, it's what else does Appleton have to offer, whether that be restaurants or nightlife or hotel, whatever, have you and it's all here, but how do we all get on the same page?

Gary Arndt: 00:14:22

For the, for the record, like I spent 13 years traveling around the world.

Gary Arndt: 00:14:25

I was a noted travel photographer.

Gary Arndt: 00:14:28

I was heavily involved in the travel industry.

Gary Arndt: 00:14:30

Then there was a pandemic ruined all of that.

Gary Arndt: 00:14:33

But when most people think of Wisconsin, they think of maybe three things at most Milwaukee, Madison and green Bay, and the only thing at green Bay, because of the Packers, we are not a destination that is on the way to anywhere else.

Gary Arndt: 00:14:49

Because of the way the Great Lakes work, nobody comes here to get to somewhere else.

Gary Arndt: 00:14:54

So you only are coming here if you're, you know, you have a reason for coming here.

Gary Arndt: 00:14:58

How do you, what are some of the things you think you could do to get on the map?

Gary Arndt: 00:15:05

How, I mean, cause a lot of this I think is like, Asheville, North Carolina, you don't think of it for much.

Gary Arndt: 00:15:11

You know, it's not in the news all the time.

Gary Arndt: 00:15:13

It's not a major city, even in North Carolina, yet it was one of the things that came to mind immediately for you in terms of beer.

Gary Arndt: 00:15:21

What do you think are some of the things that could be done to make Appleton at least stick out in people's minds or to put it on the map?

Steve Lonsway: 00:15:29

And that's the hard thing that we, we try to figure out.

Steve Lonsway: 00:15:32

I think once people get here.

Steve Lonsway: 00:15:34

They see it.

Steve Lonsway: 00:15:35

mile of music is, is first Huge.

Steve Lonsway: 00:15:38

Huge Yeah.

Steve Lonsway: 00:15:38

In, in mind.

Steve Lonsway: 00:15:39

And what we have going on in this community with Mile of Music, the first weekend of August every year is this is the 11th one that they've done.

Steve Lonsway: 00:15:47

It is absolutely something special.

Steve Lonsway: 00:15:49

Mm-Hmm.

Steve Lonsway: 00:15:49

. It's free music all through our downtown.

Steve Lonsway: 00:15:52

It's all walkable.

Steve Lonsway: 00:15:53

there's, there's all the things.

Steve Lonsway: 00:15:56

Appleton are compacted.

Steve Lonsway: 00:15:59

into that weekend.

Steve Lonsway: 00:16:00

And the more people we can get to that, they'll see how this community is.

Steve Lonsway: 00:16:04

It's, it's something special here.

Steve Lonsway: 00:16:06

Everybody's smiling.

Steve Lonsway: 00:16:07

People open doors for each other.

Steve Lonsway: 00:16:09

You know, it's very, very low crime, very safe, very clean and very happy.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:16:14

And that, that's a really big example of what I was trying to say.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:16:17

When we need to think past beer, that's a really big example.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:16:20

Milo music is something we can definitely leverage events like that

Oliver Behm: 00:16:24

Just like we were talking about before how, every brewery is a little bit different.

Oliver Behm: 00:16:28

They all started a little bit differently.

Oliver Behm: 00:16:29

They all do different things and it can still work.

Oliver Behm: 00:16:32

That can be said about the area.

Oliver Behm: 00:16:34

So it's like looking at how we could grow from my point of view in our brewery.

Oliver Behm: 00:16:38

It's well, should we get large?

Oliver Behm: 00:16:41

Should we become a big brewery?

Oliver Behm: 00:16:43

For us, it's still making great beer.

Oliver Behm: 00:16:44

Obviously being in the IPA world.

Oliver Behm: 00:16:47

those are some of the most snobby beer drinker drinkers I've ever seen.

Oliver Behm: 00:16:50

And we're competing with national brands who have perfected this over decades.

Oliver Behm: 00:16:54

And we're like, you know, new to the party going, Hey, we make IPAs too.

Oliver Behm: 00:16:57

So for us, it's like still about making great beer and then.

Oliver Behm: 00:17:01

If maybe if we can get big enough where our beer is out there a little bit further, maybe someone's like, has it in Milwaukee and goes, Hey, let's go up to that area.

Oliver Behm: 00:17:11

I want to visit that place that I had this great beer at.

Oliver Behm: 00:17:13

It doesn't mean it's going to happen, but I mean, that's, that's a way that it could grow as well.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:17:19

Great point.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:17:19

You know, I've been doing this how many years?

Bobby Fleshman: 00:17:22

Festivals and, and distributing across now 35 counties because we're trying to get our name out there.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:17:28

So I think Oliver's right.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:17:30

I think distribution and Steve said earlier too, is all largely it's about marketing, just getting the word out there.

Steve Lonsway: 00:17:36

And that carrier, that label, that's, that's a business card.

Steve Lonsway: 00:17:40

Yes.

Steve Lonsway: 00:17:40

Come visit us.

Steve Lonsway: 00:17:41

And fortunately the craft beer drinkers do it.

Steve Lonsway: 00:17:45

Yeah, they, they will travel.

Steve Lonsway: 00:17:46

They will visit.

Steve Lonsway: 00:17:47

And, and that's the.

Steve Lonsway: 00:17:49

Only thing that came good out of the pandemic is a lot of people, they couldn't travel.

Steve Lonsway: 00:17:54

So they were hopping their cars, they're driving around, checking out what's in this beautiful state.

Allison McCoy: 00:17:58

I think another part just to add on is that Appleton does have a lot of stuff to do.

Allison McCoy: 00:18:04

It's family friendly.

Allison McCoy: 00:18:05

It's got a whole bunch of parks.

Allison McCoy: 00:18:07

It's got like the kids museum downtown.

Allison McCoy: 00:18:09

It's got various things that families can do and it's It's pretty darn affordable compared to say, Milwaukee or Chicago or Madison, I work at Lawrence University and so we have a lot of folks coming through their parents delivering their kids to campus or whatever.

Allison McCoy: 00:18:24

And so I think that there is some destinations in Appleton that make it a place that people stop, but it won't necessarily be to go and have a craft beer, but I think while they're there, there's now starting to become this.

Allison McCoy: 00:18:36

Oh, well, when you go through Appleton to do this other thing, you have to do say, go to a show at the PAC, make sure you stop at and then list the brewery.

Allison McCoy: 00:18:43

So I think that's becoming more common,

Oliver Behm: 00:18:45

You know, and given time too, that's going to grow as well.

Oliver Behm: 00:18:48

So if somebody comes here to go to mile music, PAC, what have you.

Oliver Behm: 00:18:53

Then they maybe visit one or two breweries.

Oliver Behm: 00:18:55

If they really love something, they go back to their hometown.

Oliver Behm: 00:18:57

And maybe that puts us on the map next time.

Oliver Behm: 00:18:59

They're like, Hey, let's, let's go back there and let's stop at those breweries and spend the whole day doing it and bop around to all of them.

Oliver Behm: 00:19:06

I mean, that's, that's how we do it.

Oliver Behm: 00:19:07

You know, when we go to other cities.

Oliver Behm: 00:19:08

So I think it just, it also takes a little bit of time where people have been here.

Oliver Behm: 00:19:13

Want to come back.

Steve Lonsway: 00:19:15

That's a garner trust.

Steve Lonsway: 00:19:16

Yep.

Steve Lonsway: 00:19:16

In, in, in what we do and, and things will grow.

Gary Arndt: 00:19:20

Let's talk about the craft beer scene.

Gary Arndt: 00:19:23

Are you guys, I don't know if, did you grow up in Appleton at all?

Oliver Behm: 00:19:26

Yes.

Gary Arndt: 00:19:26

Okay.

Gary Arndt: 00:19:28

So did I.

Gary Arndt: 00:19:29

And.

Gary Arndt: 00:19:31

My parents, my grandparents, you'd always go to the tavern.

Gary Arndt: 00:19:34

And if you look at the list of like bars per capita, Appleton is always in like the top 10 in the United States.

Gary Arndt: 00:19:41

And eight of the 10 are always in the state of Wisconsin.

Gary Arndt: 00:19:43

We got a lot of bars going to the bar.

Gary Arndt: 00:19:47

Is a very common thing.

Gary Arndt: 00:19:49

It, I think it used to be different in that it was more like what you guys found in England, where you would bring your family.

Gary Arndt: 00:19:56

And lately it's also, it's kind of gotten away from that, where it is this sports bar thing or a place where you go to get trashed or something like that.

Gary Arndt: 00:20:06

Are you seeing the, the, the type of people that come to you as a destination that are looking for.

Gary Arndt: 00:20:12

Premium beer, something different?

Gary Arndt: 00:20:14

Is that growing?

Oliver Behm: 00:20:16

Is it I would, I would say yes, for sure.

Oliver Behm: 00:20:17

I mean, for us, I mean you know, every day if you walk into our brewery at any given time, whether it's when we first open, middle of the day at night, there's families in there, there's, there's kids in there.

Oliver Behm: 00:20:28

There's infants in there.

Oliver Behm: 00:20:29

People bring infants to brewery, which is crazy.

Oliver Behm: 00:20:31

Mm-Hmm.

Allison McCoy: 00:20:31

Mama's gotta a drink too.

Allison McCoy: 00:20:32

I hear you.

Allison McCoy: 00:20:33

Yeah.

Allison McCoy: 00:20:33

You can see their face like, no, gimme the beer.

Oliver Behm: 00:20:35

So I think I, you know, it also goes back to my point of how Wisconsin is slow to change, especially the Fox Valley.

Oliver Behm: 00:20:43

So there's still this large group of people who go to bars or their supper club on for fish fry or whatever they do.

Oliver Behm: 00:20:50

So, this idea of going to a brewery in this area is still fairly new.

Oliver Behm: 00:20:54

So I think that, you know, the, the growth aspect is there to be had.

Oliver Behm: 00:20:59

but it's definitely a switch where if I go into a bar now, I'm seeing.

Oliver Behm: 00:21:04

A very different group of people there as opposed to what I saw 10 years ago.

Oliver Behm: 00:21:09

But now when I go to a brewery, I see families and, or even if it's not families, it's, it's friends hanging out, you know, catching up over beers that used to be done at a bar.

Oliver Behm: 00:21:20

You're right.

Oliver Behm: 00:21:20

And now it's being done in a brewery.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:21:21

It's extremely.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:21:22

So in Wisconsin, bringing families to a brewery

Steve Lonsway: 00:21:25

Gets back to the quality versus quantity.

Steve Lonsway: 00:21:27

And I look at the word bar, I see.

Steve Lonsway: 00:21:31

Quantity when I hear tavern pub, I think quality and then that's where I see family versus 22 year olds that want to do each other and you know, that's, that's not our demographic.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:21:45

No, we were naive when we wrote our.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:21:48

Business plan to, to, we were going to create a, pub.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:21:52

We thought naive in the sense that we thought that was a unique idea, a public house.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:21:57

Well, that's what everybody's doing.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:21:59

And in the craft sphere.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:22:03

But I think that that really encapsulates what we're all trying to do is create the public house.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:22:07

And we don't call it that, but that's what it is.

Allison McCoy: 00:22:09

Like Oliver said earlier too, it's just like you go home at the end.

Allison McCoy: 00:22:11

Like, so it's, it's, you go to work.

Allison McCoy: 00:22:13

You go to the pub, you have your pint or two, you know, your friends gather.

Allison McCoy: 00:22:17

You, and for us our kids daycare is just two blocks away.

Allison McCoy: 00:22:21

Thank goodness.

Allison McCoy: 00:22:22

So we go pick up the kid to the brewery to go here.

Oliver Behm: 00:22:25

Yeah.

Oliver Behm: 00:22:25

I mean, it's we could talk this to death, but like, I think I've been here.

Oliver Behm: 00:22:29

I've been to your place.

Oliver Behm: 00:22:30

I mean, and every, every scene is kind of the same where it's, you've got at any time you've got.

Oliver Behm: 00:22:35

a family having fun together.

Oliver Behm: 00:22:37

You've got friends, old friends, new friends.

Oliver Behm: 00:22:40

There's people celebrating things.

Oliver Behm: 00:22:41

There's people you know, getting over a funeral maybe.

Oliver Behm: 00:22:44

There's a father, son playing games.

Oliver Behm: 00:22:47

I mean, it's all walks of life in a brewery at any time and that is pretty special.

Oliver Behm: 00:22:52

And I think that's what makes the brewery seem so unique compared to other places right now.

Steve Lonsway: 00:22:56

And I, I think too, is something that not to be forgotten is the It's dogs, dogs are family and we're seeing it more and more and we're all dog, all our places are dog friendly outside because the city won't allow it inside yet.

Steve Lonsway: 00:23:11

I'd love to see that change.

Steve Lonsway: 00:23:14

They're part of families and there's a lot of people that are forgoing the kids and having their furry kids instead.

Steve Lonsway: 00:23:20

And, and that's the difference.

Steve Lonsway: 00:23:22

you know, you go to the bar.

Steve Lonsway: 00:23:24

I never, the bars downtown that do have outdoor patios, I never see dogs there.

Steve Lonsway: 00:23:29

Dogs and breweries go together.

Steve Lonsway: 00:23:31

And that's, I think, a key thing as well.

Steve Lonsway: 00:23:34

And that's another thing that will grow exponentially.

Gary Arndt: 00:23:39

This is located downtown.

Gary Arndt: 00:23:41

I know where your location is on Earthland.

Gary Arndt: 00:23:43

That's a big kind of busy street.

Gary Arndt: 00:23:46

You're kind of on the south side of town.

Steve Lonsway: 00:23:49

A little bit off of off the beaten path.

Steve Lonsway: 00:23:51

Just a little, little bit though.

Steve Lonsway: 00:23:53

Yeah.

Gary Arndt: 00:23:53

How much do you rely on regulars?

Gary Arndt: 00:23:56

I know there are a couple of people here that basically live here.

Allison McCoy: 00:23:59

90 percent right now.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:24:01

No, no, I honestly, we probably do 25 percent of all our revenue on our, on our regular club.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:24:05

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:24:06

Yeah.

Gary Arndt: 00:24:06

I'm surprised it's that high.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:24:08

It is that high.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:24:09

It's extreme.

Allison McCoy: 00:24:09

They

Bobby Fleshman: 00:24:09

are devoted and we love them dearly.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:24:11

But we have different levels of pub club.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:24:12

There is the one that you talk about that actually have a cot and live here.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:24:16

Yeah.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:24:16

Or almost.

Allison McCoy: 00:24:17

Or if they don't show up, then we let, we contact them and like ask if they're okay.

Oliver Behm: 00:24:21

We don't have a mug club or pub club or any kind of loyalty program whatsoever.

Oliver Behm: 00:24:27

But our regulars, we, I mean, they are massive to us.

Oliver Behm: 00:24:31

You know, and they come, some come in every day, some come in every week, and then some are like once a month.

Oliver Behm: 00:24:38

And I think we all need them to survive.

Oliver Behm: 00:24:42

But yeah, our, our regulars I'm just, I'm picturing them in my mind right now.

Oliver Behm: 00:24:45

They're massive to us.

Oliver Behm: 00:24:47

We wouldn't be who we are without them.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:24:48

What's the 80 20 rule?

Bobby Fleshman: 00:24:50

80 percent of your focus should be on the up the 20 percent of your business.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:24:54

The upper 20%.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:24:55

Yeah.

Steve Lonsway: 00:24:56

Well, and looking at regulars, it's obviously a huge, huge part of ours.

Steve Lonsway: 00:24:59

We do have a loyalty program and we were a little spoiled early on is that we didn't have this competition per se.

Steve Lonsway: 00:25:05

So we had a lot more of them.

Steve Lonsway: 00:25:07

We've been around longer too.

Steve Lonsway: 00:25:09

So some of them have aged past, hanging out at the pub scene.

Steve Lonsway: 00:25:13

But what I have big time noticed is that we have the dailies, the weeklies, the monthlies as well.

Steve Lonsway: 00:25:21

The monthlies I see at Bobby's place and I see at your place and I see at ABF.

Steve Lonsway: 00:25:26

And that's very, very typical where I'll go in and I'll see those monthly regulars at the other places.

Steve Lonsway: 00:25:31

And that's cool.

Steve Lonsway: 00:25:32

That's really neat.

Allison McCoy: 00:25:34

And I think those are the ones that are really going to help bolster that Appleton is a beer destination because they're when their families come into town, they're like, all right, you're here on Thursday.

Allison McCoy: 00:25:42

We're going to do this.

Allison McCoy: 00:25:43

We're going to do that.

Allison McCoy: 00:25:43

We're going to, you know, they're going to go all across the place.

Gary Arndt: 00:25:47

You know, we've talked about the number of breweries in Appleton, but let's talk about your individual breweries and growth.

Gary Arndt: 00:25:53

You know, it's kind of an old adage that if you're not growing, you're dying.

Gary Arndt: 00:25:57

what, what have you guys been thinking in terms of growing your businesses?

Gary Arndt: 00:26:01

Do you grow it within your location?

Gary Arndt: 00:26:04

You, you know, package more beer and sell it that way, open up a second location.

Gary Arndt: 00:26:09

Have you thought about doing any of that?

Steve Lonsway: 00:26:11

So we did open a second location about two and a half years ago in the neighboring town of Littles Chute.

Steve Lonsway: 00:26:17

it's quite a different feel that we have, we call it the Stone Arch Tide house.

Steve Lonsway: 00:26:21

We don't actually brew there, but tide House is a old term that was utilized quite a bit in the Milwaukee beer market where it's tied to and, and certainly the English market where it's tied to a brewery.

Steve Lonsway: 00:26:33

So.

Steve Lonsway: 00:26:34

It's our beer there.

Steve Lonsway: 00:26:35

We just don't brew it.

Steve Lonsway: 00:26:36

it's got a little bit of a different menu twist, a total different feel.

Steve Lonsway: 00:26:41

It's, it's in a newer building.

Steve Lonsway: 00:26:43

It's all subsurface, a lot of windows, bright sun, beautiful beer garden.

Steve Lonsway: 00:26:48

We have a dog park, an actually off leash chain linked area for dogs to be off leash, versus our main location is in a historic building built in 1858 Esabury.

Steve Lonsway: 00:26:59

So there's not a lot of manipulations you can do to that thing.

Steve Lonsway: 00:27:02

The walls are four feet thick.

Allison McCoy: 00:27:04

But not only that, your restaurants in the, in the lower part, like in the basement, we don't have windows, gorgeous, like stone like cavern, you go down and it's like the most warm and welcoming place.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:27:13

Of your restaurant is Stone Arch, but I still say stone cellar

Steve Lonsway: 00:27:18

It was originally stone cellar.

Steve Lonsway: 00:27:20

We had to change it because some goofy, government thing.

Steve Lonsway: 00:27:23

but we are in a stone cellar.

Steve Lonsway: 00:27:25

Matter of fact, our dining room was, was where they stored the beer back in the day and in our back dining room, there's a bricked in area where they used to back up the horse and trailer and load the trailer and bring the beer out to market every day.

Steve Lonsway: 00:27:38

So it's, it's a very unique atmosphere.

Steve Lonsway: 00:27:40

We're very, very proud of it.

Gary Arndt: 00:27:42

What was the brewery that was there?

Steve Lonsway: 00:27:44

It started out, Antoine Fisher started out 1858 Star Brewery at one point.

Steve Lonsway: 00:27:50

It was Appleton Brewing and Malting Company at one point.

Allison McCoy: 00:27:54

Oh, they malted there.

Steve Lonsway: 00:27:55

And they actually malted there.

Steve Lonsway: 00:27:56

Wow.

Steve Lonsway: 00:27:56

Yep, where our tap room is actually.

Steve Lonsway: 00:27:58

Oh cool.

Steve Lonsway: 00:27:59

This is where they were doing the malting.

Steve Lonsway: 00:28:00

I just found this out.

Steve Lonsway: 00:28:01

And then George Walter Brewing Company in 1919 bought it out because they were really experiencing growth.

Steve Lonsway: 00:28:08

George had passed by now.

Steve Lonsway: 00:28:10

But they were really experiencing growth.

Steve Lonsway: 00:28:12

So they bought a second location to brew more and then prohibition set in.

Steve Lonsway: 00:28:17

So they actually never brewed in our building.

Steve Lonsway: 00:28:19

But, that company owned the building for a period of time.

Steve Lonsway: 00:28:22

So that's pretty cool.

Oliver Behm: 00:28:24

I think for us, growth, obviously we're looking to grow, but it's also terrifying because this industry is so expensive.

Oliver Behm: 00:28:32

It's hard for us sometimes to figure out.

Oliver Behm: 00:28:36

I mean, you want, it's like, you want to let things grow organically, but if you don't have a purpose in a place, like what's our destination, you're, you're never going to get there.

Oliver Behm: 00:28:44

So for us, it's, a constant debate.

Oliver Behm: 00:28:47

Let's call it, between my wife and I on how we should grow.

Oliver Behm: 00:28:50

Hopefully she never listens to this.

Oliver Behm: 00:28:52

So our plan, is to get bigger.

Oliver Behm: 00:28:55

We're not looking to be this monster.

Oliver Behm: 00:28:57

Sure.

Oliver Behm: 00:28:58

Brewery.

Oliver Behm: 00:28:58

We don't want to distribute through the whole country or anything silly like that.

Oliver Behm: 00:29:00

But space wise, we do, I mean, we're running out of space.

Oliver Behm: 00:29:04

So we are looking at expanding our brewery.

Oliver Behm: 00:29:07

We have talked about a second location.

Oliver Behm: 00:29:09

There's, there's plans.

Oliver Behm: 00:29:11

We need to talk, sir.

Steve Lonsway: 00:29:12

We need to talk.

Bobby Fleshman: 00:29:13

Let's do a whole show on second locations.

Allison McCoy: 00:29:15

Yeah.

Allison McCoy: 00:29:16

I mean, we all just build a contract brewery and call it a day

Bobby Fleshman: 00:29:19

Or we open time share, but that's another conversation.

Gary Arndt: 00:29:24

All right.

Gary Arndt: 00:29:24

That's going to wrap this episode up.

Gary Arndt: 00:29:26

Thanks once again, for listening to the Respecting the Beer podcast.

Gary Arndt: 00:29:29

If you enjoy the show, remember to scribe on your favorite podcast player to get every episode and also make sure to follow our Facebook group and support us on Patreon.

Gary Arndt: 00:29:36

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