Shownotes
In a recent episode of the You World Order Showcase podcast, host Jill Hart interviewed Rosalyn Rourke, a coach, author, and former psychotherapist. Rosalyn shared her personal story of transformation, navigating profound grief, and finding truth through non-duality.
Her life’s work now centers around helping others break free from old thought patterns and embrace inner peace.
This blog post delves into the insights Rosalyn shared during the interview, offering wisdom on how to navigate life's challenges with grace and resilience.
Retiring from Psychotherapy and Embracing Change
Rosalyn’s journey began in psychotherapy, where she spent years helping clients heal emotionally.
However, she decided to retire at 76, not because of dissatisfaction, but to care for her mother and focus on her family, including her new grandson.
But life threw an unexpected challenge her way when her second daughter, Melissa, passed away suddenly.
Grieving such a loss would be a monumental task for anyone, and Rosalyn faced the traditional stages of grief—denial, anger, depression—head-on.
Discovering a Moment of Unexpected Okayness
While working through her grief, Rosalyn encountered something unexpected: a moment of deep peace, a state she describes as "okayness."
This wasn’t the conventional "acceptance" that grief stages lead toward; instead, it was a profound realization of being at peace, even while still feeling her daughter’s loss.
The societal expectation for grieving mothers to remain in perpetual sorrow conflicted with Rosalyn's new emotional state, but she couldn’t deny the truth of her experience.
She describes this "okayness" as something deeper than fleeting emotional relief. It became a foundation she could rely on, a deeper sense of being that stayed with her regardless of external circumstances.
The Power of Non-Duality: Letting Go of Old Patterns
Rosalyn’s work is anchored in the ancient spiritual concept of non-duality, which teaches that life is not divided into opposites like good and bad, right and wrong.
Instead, non-duality encourages acceptance of everything as it is, without judgment. This philosophy helped Rosalyn reframe her grief and eventually led her to share this path with her clients.
Central to Rosalyn’s teachings is the idea that thoughts and feelings are not facts—they are transient, much like passing clouds.
When we stop attaching to them and recognize them as temporary, we free ourselves from much of the suffering they can cause. Rosalyn’s experience after Melissa’s passing illustrates this principle: though her feelings of loss remained, they didn’t define her state of being.
Challenging the Belief in Unworthiness
Rosalyn also explores how the belief in unworthiness keeps many people trapped in negative thought patterns. She calls this "imagined unworthiness" because it is based on false narratives, we’ve internalized about ourselves.
This imagined state leads people to believe they are undeserving of happiness or success, making it difficult to break free from emotional pain.
In her work, Rosalyn uses the enneagram, a tool for understanding personality types, to help clients identify and release old patterns.
The enneagram provides a roadmap for personal transformation, showing individuals how to loosen the grip of limiting beliefs and explore new possibilities for themselves.
Finding Home in the Present Moment
At the heart of Rosalyn’s message is the idea of finding a sense of home within ourselves.
This "home" is not a physical place but a mental state of deep contentment and stability. It exists beyond the ever-changing thoughts and feelings that usually dictate our emotional state.
By finding this home, Rosalyn teaches, we can navigate life’s challenges with more grace and less attachment to the emotional highs and lows.
Rosalyn believes that most people have glimpsed this home, whether while driving in a calm, meditative state or in the moments before falling asleep.
The key, she says, is learning to recognize and value this state, allowing us to return to it more often, especially when life becomes overwhelming.
Embracing Leadership and Vulnerability
During the conversation, Jill shared her struggles with being called "bossy" throughout her life.
Rosalyn helped reframe this experience, explaining that what’s often seen as bossiness is actually leadership.
However, true leadership also requires vulnerability. For people who naturally take charge, learning to balance strength with vulnerability can lead to deeper connections and more meaningful relationships.
Rosalyn encourages leaders to understand that vulnerability isn’t a weakness; it’s a form of strength that opens the door to greater intimacy and understanding.
In Summary
Rosalyn Rourke’s story is a powerful example of how transformation and healing are possible, even in the face of devastating loss. Through her work, she teaches others how to navigate their emotions, challenge long-held beliefs of unworthiness, and find a sense of peace that transcends life’s challenges.
By embracing non-duality, rethinking old patterns, and reconnecting with a deeper sense of self, Rosalyn helps her clients discover the inner peace that is always available to them.
More Information
For more information about Rosalyn's work, including her coaching and glimpses of awakening sessions, visit her website at RosalynRourke.com. Rosalyn’s message is one of hope, offering the reminder that no matter the circumstances, we all have the power to find peace within ourselves.
Rosalyn Rourke - A coach & author and former psychotherapist. She works with those who are looking for the deeper meaning in life and are desiring new ways to strategize old personality habits.
Take the Unworthiness Quiz and receive my gift to you: a powerful guide through the steps to release suffering and live a life of contentment.
https://rosalynrourke.com/
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Transcripts
Audio file
Rosalyn rourke podcast.m4a
Transcript
::Hi and welcome to the You World Order Showcase podcast. I'm your host, Jill Hart, and with me today we have Rosalyn Rourke. Rosalyn is a coach and author and former psychotherapist who has come full circle in her life. She works with those who are looking for the deeper meaning in life and are desiring new, strategize old personality habits.
::And she uses anagrams to kind of tie it all together and help us understand where we're starting from and why those old patterns.
::Keep up on us all the time. Welcome to the show, Rosalyn.
::Thank you so much.
::So how did you get started? Tell us your story.
::So I think.
::Why? Why did you leave psychotherapy?
::I retired. I'm 76, so that's a reasonable age. I was in my 70s when I retired. I had a very successful psychotherapy career. I love the work my mother came to live with me and I had her at the end of her life.
::And my daughter had a grandson. Her son a son. Yeah. So my grandson. And so it was a great time to retire.
::And then, unexpectedly, my second daughter, Melissa died. No warning, no illness that we knew of, and I went through the typical stages of grief.
::That you would expect that you're written about, you know, denial, anger, bargaining, whatever. Depression. No acceptance. Because it all of those are a fight with what is, if you think about it. Denial. No, it couldn't have happened. Anger. Why?
::You know, depression. Oh, how could life? How can I live without her? And so on.
::And then one day.
::And it had happened before, but I was too busy with my, with my grief reactions to pay attention. I was physically shaken. I I say it just to describe it as being different from nervous or fluttery inside, or something inside you.
::And I was like, what is that?
::And I looked around, obviously there was no one there. I was not hallucinating because I was very aware that Melissa had died. I mean, I wasn't in some altered state I was remembering.
::But I had this overwhelming feeling of being OK.
::And then the next thought was how can I be OK if my daughter died? The role, the expectation of a grieving mother is that my life is over. I'm going to hurt the rest of my life.
::And and I kind of well, if I can't be happy, at least I can have a tribe and that I belong. I can be part of the grieving mothers.
::And it was like.
::Really that those are my choices.
::And then I just knew.
::Because the next question, I'll tell you what I knew.
::The next question was can I tell anybody, do I have to keep my okayness to myself? Like I felt the taboo, the shame? Like how could I be OK? I didn't know what OK meant. I just knew I wasn't hurting at that moment.
::I just knew I wasn't hurting and.
::And and then I've been a truth seeker in my whole life. I was an obese child and my parents got to the US from the Holocaust and they didn't want to experience any of their grief. And so I would go around the house saying what's wrong, and they'd say nothing.
::And that's why I became the psychotherapist, because I had to validate what I knew. They wouldn't admit it, but I knew it. And so I had to. I became really good at.
::Reading people and acknowledging the truth of what I was experiencing. So at that moment I knew I didn't know what it would take, but I knew I had to stand up for truth. I didn't know if it applied to other people. I wasn't following a concept or a path, or anybody's grief.
::Look.
::I just knew.
::That I would have to tell the truth about being OK.
::And then that is what led back to being invited to speak and write this book, and the book has more to do with. I'll, I'll, we'll talk about that later, but it has more to do with wanting to translate.
::An ancient path called non duality.
::And I wanted to tell a story without using any jargon because it it hasn't gotten this wisdom hasn't gotten into the hands of people in the West. So I wrote a fable.
::In this book.
::And then I realized that the story that has a wisdom character arrived to the little girl who's hurting so badly.
::That I had that same experience with a wisdom character in Ireland, and so we had to add a memoir. I say we because my editor and I thought that was a separate story. And then one day we started crying. We said it has to be in the book also.
::Because someone intervened in my life with Melissa and we'd had a rough time earlier in her.
::Life and thou rapprochement the coming together came after reading this wisdom character. So I know that's a lot more than what you asked for, but it all it's it's really my story and why I do the work that I do and what my glimpses classes about it's.
::It's teaching that material without any jargon and without calling it non duality. It's just a way to see basically how our thoughts.
::And our feelings are hurting us because we believe them.
::So the central thought in the in this book is if thoughts and feelings were truth.
::They'd be called facts.
::And if if we know that one thing.
::We can look at it as clouds, as rain, as a moment, and do what science tells us and let it go as an as an energy passing through. It isn't who we are, and it isn't permanent.
::And we can change what we think about it.
::We can change the story because we.
::Or we can put a pause in there and just let it go and not add to it and change everything. If we do that one thing and I found that the reason people don't do it, they love it when they hear it, they want it and they don't necessarily do it because they believe their thoughts.
::It's that part.
::Where we've been trained to worship our thoughts and our feelings.
::And that's the one thing one has to really see before it's possible to go the whole way and being OK and not hurting.
::It.
::It applies, I think, to every aspect of your life.
::Your finances, your business, your your relationships with your family, your relationships with strangers, you make up information based on the thoughts that you have in your head.
::And hold them as true.
::But they're not. Nothing is true or not true.
::Your imagination from our right. Some are wrong. Some are a story, some are partially correct, and it's only about memory. If you cut out memory, memory is what made you decide this and that your earlier experiences. So you're judging everything.
::By your conclusions of your earlier experiences, so.
::Interrupting those are are based on.
::On faulty reasoning, because you were either really young when.
::You.
::You first form that thought the way you were going to think around these certain situations and you never took the time to evaluate and decide. I'm going to choose to think differently about this and and we actually have the ability to choose.
::Different thoughts and to choose how we want to remember things.
::You you can make up better memories and and it sounds silly and it really is very simple, but it's difficult for people to get over that hump. That. Yeah, I'm allowed to do this. Like, you know, when you were talking about am I allowed what I heard is you were feeling am I allowed?
::To be OK, even though my daughter passed.
::Yeah.
::Am I allowed to and?
::Yeah.
::And then I had to step away from that myth that I had to that if I suffered the rest of my life, it proved I love Melissa.
::Even.
::That moment, I said. I did love her. I do love her and I'm OK.
::Yeah.
::And it it's OK for you to be OK that that's the thing that a lot of people don't won't won't allow themselves to embrace is that it's OK for you to feel however you're feeling. And if you're feeling OK.
::Then it's OK if you're feeling sad, then that's OK too.
::And the it's not serving you the okayness I was talking about. Yes, you're correct 100% that I had to allow myself the okayness in that moment. But the okayness that I speak about.
::I don't want to call it enlightenment because people think enlightenment mean or awakening. They think it means you're all all the time. No, we're supposed to feel everything just like you were saying. But this OK eness is.
::A deeper okayness I don't have the best words we could say a contentment, a stability, a place.
::That is not pulled by whatever feeling is being happening. Kind of the background OK in the background. I never had that before. I was one who was very filled with an awareness of unworthiness, of the belief and unworthiness.
::That's why I now call it imagined unworthiness. I don't call it shame anymore because I think the word shame shames people. They just feel it when they say the word, but.
::Ah.
::It is very possible.
::To have a new home besides the outer world, where everything changes every moment and we're supposed to feel it if we and we're supposed to participate. That's why we're alive.
::But there is.
::A place that's not zoned out.
::If you will, that's just right there with us. And instead of the self talk that says you're not OK what do you need to do to make yourself OK? It it more is coming from. OK now. So you don't even have to use an affirmation. It's OK like you said, to feel whatever you're feeling because.
::It's transient.
::But not not not that, not that home.
::Yeah.
::Like every time you take off a too tight shoe.
::Or abroad. That hurts, or something else. It's always that same.
::That's the home.
::Yeah.
::And it to recognize what it feels like, because there are going to.
::Be the moments.
::In life, with the two tight bra, I can totally relate to that.
::Or the things that don't really feel good to you, but you don't have to live in that if you know what the if you know what home feels like, you can get back to home.
::And you spend more time there if you know what it feels like. But a lot of times people don't even know what that feels like or they it they fall into it, but then they're pulled right back out. They don't allow themselves to sit in it and then just relax and enjoy and, you know, take that bra off and just.
::B. Yes, they're so busy, like trying to accomplish things or wanting to be something else instead of just being.
::Where they are in the now.
::Yes, that's so beautiful, John. And you know, I do think we have more experiences of this home, but we've been taught.
::But not to value it. So sometimes we're in our car and we drive somewhere and we don't even remember driving there. We were in that neutral place. That's that's not the mind thinking. It really is a state of complete meditation. But we didn't sit down on a cushion.
::That is what we're we're we're looking for to have this thought stop and have an interruption of that busy mind.
::And.
::So we have that all of us have had that experience every night before we go to sleep before we're asleep where we know we're not asleep yet.
::But we let the world go.
::And there's that, that. But when we're taught in school, pay attention, don't Daydream.
::Well, what if daydreaming, right, right.
::Worst advice ever.
::Right. We're we're just taught not to value anything that's not doing the being. I mean it's it, it's overseas D and yet it's still true. We just need to value what you were saying that home that taking the bra off and that nothingness.
::That turns out to be everything.
::Because you think, what is that like before we go to sleep and we need sleep, we need to let that world go or we don't feel OK.
::Well, what is that? You know, why not? Why are we not? You're just sleepy. We're taught to value. Energized, right. We're not taught to value. Letting it all go doing nothing.
::Jill, I remember before I I learned all this, I was still in my 30s. I was a sycho therapist. And I I kind of had a busy addiction. I only valued caffeine. Getting things done on my list. And you know, Jill, I couldn't even stand my husband sitting there.
::Relax.
::Saying I would try to give him ideas of what.
::He could do.
::Yeah.
::It totally related to that.
::So let's talk a little bit about how anagrams fit into all of this.
::Well.
::I love the enneagram because it's not it it. It is an ancient personality and spiritual pathway. And I say pathway because.
::It's not even though we say you're an 8 and I'm I'm a four or whatever. We use those numbers so so that people don't have a good one and a bad one. And there are names while we're learning it. And you gram has as its core, you are not.
::That number, your essence is, is this is your strategy. This is what has worked so far in your life.
::And for some reason I got I got incredible coaching, so maybe that's the reason, but it's my brilliance. If I know somebody's and you, gram, even if they don't want to, to learn about the angiogram.
::I can short circuit the coaching because I know.
::Probably what kind of family they grew up in and I I check all this out and I don't just take the I I have a validated test independent from me and it's pretty good. It's about 85% correct. But I always check really for sure this is their home.
::And then the anagram.
::Shows the home strategy and I can give you examples, but then the enneagram points right away to what loosens that strategy and it's such a welcome.
::Piece of.
::Acknowledgement that the way they person has tried to manage and cope with life.
::Worked has been good. Was it best idea for their family? But maybe there's more flexibility, more gifts that if we add on to those skills.
::We can have a more fun experience, a lighter experience, more ease with life, more playfulness. And I haven't met a person who doesn't want more joy.
::I couldn't agree with you more. I have to ask you a question at this point though. Are you an anagram for you are?
::And you know that.
::I'm an 8.
::No, I don't know. I just was talking.
::I emanate. That was interesting, just like.
::Yeah, I'm not surprised, but I.
::I wouldn't have. I'm. I'm not surprised, but I don't try to type people just from these kind of interactions, because what I've learned, yeah, most of the time, you're right, probably 75%, but sometimes it can be the number just next to you.
::Or your father's anagram. So I had a whole group of enneagram experts.
::And we had a newbie therapist join us.
::And everybody thought that she was in hate, even the way she taught, even the way she walked. She was. I am here. Power, energy. I can do it. Leadership skills up the gazoo.
::And we told her, you know, would never do this again. We told her she you're.
::Hey.
::And she studied and she studied and she said no, it's not. It's really not. It's what we realized. It's how she taught. It's how her father was. So when she was teaching, she stepped into her wing on the enneagram. So it's more complicated than just your type.
::But she lived in Nines, which is kind of the opposite of of eight in the sense of nines. Go away. Nines really go to sleep to their needs 9.
::These are reluctant leaders in a certain way, so the nine if you're an 8, that's really lovely that you shared that because that can balance your agness so beautifully to let it go nicer at the top of the circle.
::So that self forgetting is the same gift, and I'll tell you what I mean by self. Forgetting in Nines is the same gift that allows you to open to spirit, open to the cosmos, to the universe, to the divine. So there.
::Our our listeners can see you have the leadership of an aide, but then if you, let's say, you didn't know about all the things you already spoke of home, that tells me, you know, of what I'm talking about. But let's say you didn't now if we.
::Say hey, look, that's your wing. That's your next door neighbor. It's inviting you to take a break sometimes from managing the world and letting go. And what a relief you've already expressed you you feel taking off that bra.
::You know the bra would be the agness. You know, it works. And here I am.
::Yes.
::Buy this. Do that whatever.
::Yeah. And you very much show up in in different in different categories. I think in some ways understanding your main anagram, how you show up also.
::Validates for me it validates.
::Some characteristics that people have spoken to me unkindly about in my life, and it's like, well.
::Yeah.
::Wait a minute.
::You know, yes, I am like this, but I don't always have to be like this. I can recognize that I have these tendencies, but some people need to be approached differently and I need to respect that for them as well. But just understanding the different.
::And personality types and I look at Myers, Briggs and horoscopes and all kinds of things that kind of play into.
::Really figuring out who you are at the core. What what your mission is when you're here and.
::And how to how to present yourself in a way that's not?
::Not like my way or the highway, which I think sometimes eights can be like, you know this is this is the only way to do it rather than I think relaxing back a little bit and saying well this is one way to do it. What's your idea and and recognizing that other people have valuable input to put into and not trying to take on the whole world.
::Because I mean.
::For eights as an 8, I can say it's really easy to say. Oh, just do this this and the other thing and we'll solve all the problems. But really that's not going to work because people aren't just going to do it.
::So this is a a great example and I'm so happy that you know you're in your.
::And so yes, it's very validating and AIDS can be called controlling.
::And too big and too much because they have a lot of power. They're very. But what the reason I like the enneagram and have studied it so deeply as a psychotherapist is because it speaks of motivation. Yes, we talk about how you appear in the world, but the motivation.
::For an A to be to appear controlling, that's never the motivation, it's not. Let me be in control of you. It's to not be too vulnerable to not be heard. That was the motivation that appears controlling.
::But for an 8 to understand and the others in their life, they're not trying to do anything to you. And if they feel safe, and if they are comfortable being vulnerable. So instead of fighting being vulnerable for an eighth to understand that that's my.
::That's even more power when I can be vulnerable with you, and you can be vulnerable with me. Now we have the possibility of intimacy.
::Say, and everybody's longing to be seen and heard and connected. There's another layer of the anagram. I I'm wondering if you know your.
::Whether you're social, self press or intimate, those are the instincts.
::Most people don't get to that.
::But I no I don't.
::Yeah. So that's another layer because it changes the anagram and I'm guessing and I I'm happy to be wrong. I like people to take the next test to see, but I'm guessing that you might be social and social is the most complicated people think.
::It's parties, it it could be, but it doesn't need to be parties. People could be averse to parties.
::But so, you know, you gravitate to missions, you, you, you have a broader viewpoint in the world than one to one and and self preservation would be you learned from your own supplies.
::Am I too tired? Am I? But everybody has all three, but it's which do you lead with? And so just Can you imagine if you are an 8 and your social?
::What do you how do you think that would appear differently than if you were one to one?
::Just.
::Just for our viewers to even go along with you.
::In terms of.
::Yeah.
::In terms of.
::Speaking to larger audiences.
::Exactly. You would want. You would even imagine first even that question shows you're you're geared to larger audience. Larger but. But it isn't just about accumulation. It's about your vision. You're a visionary. For larger than you and me.
::And this other person and your daughters and whatever but the so that's the high side, the high side.
::I'm a self pressed so I can add that on later. First I have to make sure I've had enough food, enough sleep that all my physical, it's it. It's just how you're wired. That's not more selfish.
::And then my next skill would be 1 to one. My third skill, which I had to I didn't have to I desired to develop more because whichever is our lowest.
::Is the one we can get the more gifts from because you already know how to do the mission. The big picture. That's you. You're wired that way.
::I'm I'm I'm feeling but the the what you could learn is let's say I don't know you well enough to say, but let's say just from a guess from what you said that your lowest might be 1 to one.
::That you would then have to pay more attention, like consciously learn like you mentioned.
::Oh, people are receiving my behavior and motivation differently than I was intending. Let me learn that and get more consciously.
::Attune to how people are hearing it. Then I can change it cause it's not me. You that isn't. That isn't your core. Your core is none of those personality traits, all of them. And none of them. You're something.
::Else, something larger, less limited. So then we can open. It's not a personal criticism. We can open to the the gifts, the the opportunities. So this is so fun. We couldn't have. We couldn't have created this if we decided to talk about this.
::Yeah, I think it's fascinating it it's. And it's not just for AIDS. I mean, it's like all of the anagrams, it's.
::No, no, it's seven, no.
::Number has all of these pieces.
::I just I I thought it was so fascinating that you just said I'm a four and you're innate, it's like.
::How did you know that you made my.
::No, I have some data for how you. I mean, if I were trying to consciously which I I have trained myself not to do.
::Yeah.
::Because then I will read people on a guess and then fit everything into that. And I. Yeah, there you you can know how you act.
::And and there's always a reason. So I would be right about what I be observing, but it might not be your enneagram, it might be your parent, it might be a wing, it might be an arrow. But but now that I know that.
::If you compare what you offer to people who are coming to be on your podcast with other podcasts.
::Hosts what they offer. It's voluminous. Read this. Do that. Listen to the video. Now do this. It is very eightish in. In neither good or bad. It's it's powerful. It's large. It's gracious.
::It's leadership.
::And if somebody were having problem with all of that, then it would be up to them to then speak to you. So can I still be on your podcast without doing this, this, this, this and then you would you would know where they were coming from that they are a different enneagram?
::And so then you would know at this point because you're so evolved, I can tell, but there, there is evidence, Pete, we we leave evidence for for who we are.
::And and if we know how to pick it up, it it improves our relationships.
::Because we're and you're grams talking to each other.
::Yeah.
::Alright, so talking to each other, yeah.
::And they bring everybody has something unique and yummy that they bring to the the party, so to speak, and we need a whole of them. It's not like one is better than the other. It's just different.
::None. That's why I like being you better than the diagnostic manual because there are no bad and you.
::Programs and and everybody within their angiogram is healthier or unhealthy or depending on the moment of the day and we we do that, we go up and down. If depending how tired we are, what has happened to us. So yeah, it's beautiful.
::Yeah, I I.
::Couldn't agree with you more. So how do you actually work with people? Is it one-on-one groups?
::I have two roots.
::That have been ongoing and right.
::Right now I've opened up some spots to work with me individually to take the test and I will tell them how to take the test. I give certain guidance for example, and I'm it's not a secret you can look up the wisdom of the Enneagram or riso and.
::Puts in and I like their tests the best. Take it from age about 25, not how you've evolved.
::Because when you're anxious or stressed or have a crisis, you're going to go back to your home in your grant. So that's fine that you notice you don't do that anymore, but answer how you used to do it.
::So they.
::They meet with me for 15 minutes, see if I'm for you. What I can offer you and then take the test. Then we do an in-depth.
::Yes.
::Really uncovering, unpacking of what? The and your gram could be in your life. So we would start probably from a situation that's troubling or that is an obstacle you're handling or something juicy in your life.
::And then I would show you how the annual gram is influencing that behavior, that motivation, those issues.
::And I would say also I check out to make sure that is the correct anagram, because many eights.
::Diagnosed on the test as twos because they prefer to see themselves as helpers.
::Does that surprise you?
::No.
::Yeah.
::And so I have to make sure if I get a tube from the test that it isn't secretly an 8 that they just are have have been shamed about being big. Yeah, too much. And so they just see that helper quality from an 8 goes to two on the arrow, right.
::For the longest time I I.
::Was told my whole life. You're so bossy. Stop being bossy, Jill.
::To sit down and shut up.
::When I was the oldest of three girls and we traveled all over the world and I I always had to be in charge, whether I wanted to or not, that was my job because I was the oldest and we were always meeting new people. So.
::Later in life, my husband came to me and he said I heard the best thing the other day. It's perfect for you, he said. They come back to, you're so bossy as I'm not bossy, I'm just overly helpful. So I've embraced that.
::That's lovely and you know.
::UM, eights only do that when the situation actually, unless they're compulsive, which can happen. But often it's because there's a vacuum and a need for leadership, because I bet you you can step back and let someone else lead if they're capable.
::And you see the bonus for you and not being the leader of everything. And you know, yeah.
::Yeah, it's very true. I often I'll see a vacuum and I try to wait now, I didn't always, but I I do try to wait and see if somebody else wants to step.
::Up and I'll ask you.
::No.
::Does anybody else want to do this job? Because I don't necessarily want to do it. I will do it. I'm capable of doing it. I have confidence in myself.
::Yeah. Yeah, you're very you're very healthy and that's some of what, what many aides want to learn. And that other piece of am I being perceived? Am I'm being received.
::Who can have confidence in yourself too?
::With the in a way that's consonant, that's the way I mean to be intending is it? Is it a?
::That and if people are receiving you in a way you don't intend, then then there is a motivation to pull back some of the energy so you could be hurt the way you intended.
::It's the vulnerability issue in there too. I I I don't like conflict and I.
::I am. I bet you you can hold your own and and you can handle conflict. You may not like it.
::I I can I'll avoid it at all costs. That's that's who I am.
::That's that nine. That's that nine. And the merging. So that's why this is such a great example of why, like the anagram, nobody's purely this and that. And so the merging and to be able to see. Ohh yay. My 9 is coming 4th when there's conflict that's going to soften me.
::That's going to make me feel better at conflict resolution, even though I don't care for it. It's out there whether you want it or not.
::We.
::You're going to stumble into it so.
::Just just where? Where are you going to put that emergency exit? Yeah.
::Yeah. And so after people take the test and I meet with them to make sure we have it and then we start applying it and people really get there, and you, grandma and I do the pacing, I make sure they really.
::Not only understand it, but in in a way love it and are embarrassed by it. Until there's that revelation. Like oh, I didn't want anybody to know that, you know, then you really have your and your grandma. If you just love it like A7 might say, oh, I just love being the fun like.
::One, you need to see your avoiding things and big things, and that's why you're so much fun.
::And until there's that gulp of O, everybody's going to know that that knows the angiogram.
::Then then you really have something. Do you know what I mean? You have your entrance, and then we do the instinct. Because I want people before they look at the books and and get lost and just have it be another test.
::I would like them to have a lens to see themselves with respect and kindness and opportunity because there are so many opportunities from the knowing their own enneagram. And then we want to see if they, if their coaches, then they want to.
::Know this.
::The enneagram is the most helpful for coaches because I watch coaches in very, very high investment programs that don't know the Enneagram and when they have a client that won't land the plane, meaning write the book.
::If it's a book writing group, make a decision on the investment offering or go back and forth. That's an anagram that is.
::Is more safe and comfortable. Not landing the plane, staying in this or that, this or that? You try and take that away with coaching strategies. OK. What are you going to do this week? Now it's not going to work. They'll, they'll. They'll just defy it and come back.
::Next week with this or that. So knowing the enneagram.
::Is just a window into the deepest place that's going on with someone. It's not just a party game like so many of these things are. And so if people want to go deeper.
::I have offerings both individual and group, for people to proceed, but just knowing your own type is an incredible gift.
::You you made a point that I I really want to circle.
::Back to you.
::You said until you feel that that gut check with your anagram that gut check is like the gift is it's that thing that you face and you're like you know it but when when it it it's right there in black and white.
::Or whatever color you want to use on your computer screen. But.
::Yes, yes, yes.
::And it's what you're going to feel about it and how you're going to incorporate that into your life. And it's powerful in the way that it.
::It just is OK, like there's bossiness and there's vulnerability in an innate.
::Bossiness is embarrassing to me. I've been shamed about it so much in my life that being faced with that was like.
::Yeah, this is a characteristic. I recognize it in myself and being vulnerable. And that's also characteristic. And I sometimes the bossiness comes from that. But knowing those is also very powerful because it allows me to to pull back it. It gives me the information that says, you know, I'm too much for a lot of people.
::And if you look at other anagrams, you can.
::You can soft pedal to to different people in in terms of you know how they're going to to protect you and you know the one-on-one thing that we were talking about the the social, some preservation or one-on-one that is my lowest one because it's it took me the longest time to figure out that.
::I need to approach groups much differently than I approach individuals. They'll they'll get more benefit, and if they get more benefit one-on-one then the larger community will will prosper. It's it's the whole mission thing.
::You.
::Yeah, that's good.
::I I want to offer you something. I think it's beautiful that you made friends with the word bossy. I had to make friends with the word death. I wanted to say passed on transition, you know, which gives you a whole other feeling. Like it didn't really happen.
::Just another movement I had to make friends with that word, but now.
::Bossy is really the interpretation of the other person, so I acknowledge you that you made friends with that. Now you can just call it leadership because because there it's not bossy unless the person sees it as too much. That's the other person's lens and.
::There are going to be times when you lead.
::And it's not bossy.
::Because your one to one calibration is correct, you you've softened your voice. You've chosen your words. You, you, you ask. Would someone else like to do this like you said, I don't have to. That is not bossy, but it's still leadership.
::MHM.
::And I think there's something.
::A next level which you you, you. I could see it's not even new for you that you had to make friends with bossy and now you can just call it leadership and then that opens it up to ohh. It actually isn't bossy if I see it as bossy. That's on me.
::No, no.
::Yeah, that that very profound.
::It has been again at the Enneagram I it has been so helpful in that respect it it's.
::Even without somebody coaching me on it, it has helped me.
::Come to terms with how I want to present myself in.
::The world.
::You were ready for it, and somehow your original materials were accessible. Sometimes even the word angiogram. It sounds hard, and the words are old and it's off. Putting and out of deference to the ancient tradition that it used to be thought of as being so powerful.
::That nobody was to write it down, and the Jesuits for were the first person people to write down the enneagram.
::But you know, you were ready. And so it it. It came to you in a deep way. Some people that they're scared by the possibilities rather than stepping a little bit at a time and just taking it in and and taking the treasures that are yours.
::You don't need to understand the whole anagram now. If there is a problem with the person, so many people have inner conflicts they might not even be in the world but with someone.
::And we can figure out their anagram and why that anagram is trouble for you. So there's we, we then take the anagram and personalize it to what's going on in your life. What do you need and how can the anagram be of assistance and open things up rather than close it?
::We never end with. Well, there are an 8 or there are two or there or what. No, that's that's only the beginning.
::Yeah. It's like the door.
::That's.
::And behind it, there's so much more information.
::Yeah, yeah, that can help you both build a better relationship together.
::Which is like.
::Right. And your and your grams are talking to each other. So like the person who sees, sees.
::Leadership is too much.
::That's about there. And you, gram of having been overwhelmed and maybe not seen and passed over. And so you you offering something?
::Sometimes it's even jealousy that they can't and would like to be able to do that, and they have the constriction of their enneagram, so now they're going to make you wrong rather than feel like they're they can't do what they would like to do too.
::So wherever one of my coaches used to call it, when you when you're like you are with your and you grab, you're easy in your harness, the harness is still there. You still have that and you gram, but it's not constricting. It's not hurting. It's like that bra we talked about.
::Yeah, yeah, for sure.
::Bras.
::Sorry.
::I have a love hate relationship with them.
::Yeah, I understand.
::Most women do.
::So you you offer a quiz over on your site for people. If they're just like getting ready to.
::Learn more.
::Yeah, it's not an anagram quiz. It's an unworthiness quiz.
::It was like.
::I feel underneath all of the anagrams because we're humans.
::Unworthiness is.
::Another lens to understand why we're all stuck. So when we go back to what we talked about earlier.
::If someone doesn't believe.
::That the thoughts and feelings are transitory.
::Why wouldn't they?
::That let's try on a hypothesis. If I think I'm unworthy, then that unworthiness is like a solid soul.
::Beingness judgment.
::So.
::Telling me thoughts and feelings are just.
::Does transitory energy.
::Well, I'm going to believe my unworthiness more than what you just told me. And that unworthiness prove it. Show me this unworthy person. Where it. Where are they? Oh, you did that well. That was then. You felt that that. Where is it? Is it here now? You're going back.
::With memory, so the unworthiness quiz is actually like a course it has the core. It has the quiz with questions that are really good.
::And then it talks to you about about how unworthiness could possibly be imagined.
::So it it it, it's something I've dealt with. I believed in unworthiness, for us are very connected to that feeling. They believe it's the truth. So we imagine rejection, even when it's not there.
::Because we've rejected ourselves.
::So yeah, that's the unworthiness quiz.
::But come and talk to me for there's a 15 minute conversation we can have about the annual gram and we we work, not work. We we get together in a meeting twice a month. It's not an anagram class. It's not a teaching.
::It's what those glimpses of awakening mean.
::It means having an experience like you mentioned earlier, the experience of home. That's what glimpses of awakening is, and we offer those twice a month for free to get to know me, to get to know my community, our community. And it's a great way.
::To to connect.
::So if any of this is.
::Pulling you then you'll know and that's a good way to use one of these freebies.
::Website isroslynwork.com so.
::Easy was just going to ask you and we'll be sure to put that in the show notes. So Rosalyn, this has been an amazing conversation. I have really enjoyed it a lot. What is the one thing that you would hope the audience takes away from what we discussed today?
::That one sentence if thoughts and feelings were truth with a capital T.
::If I could believe all my thoughts and feelings, then they would be called facts. If you can just add a little bit of doubt and say maybe this is happening, maybe this feeling of.
::Perceived mistakes.
::Is a story. Maybe just any doubt. You've opened a door to peace, contentment, no matter what's happening outside.
::I love that. Thank you for joining me.
::Thank you. Love being here with you.
