Shownotes
In this episode of the InsideAMind Podcast, join Christian Scales, a former professional footballer, on a fascinating journey through life's unexpected twists and turns. ✨Get into the world of Cold Water Therapy and enjoy 15% OFF all Lumi Products with code INSIDEAMINDPOD! Shop now: https://lumitherapy.co.uk/?dt_id=1119525
Explore how Christian moved from the high-pressure world of football to the fast-paced world of construction recruitment in the city.
Learn about the obstacles and insights he faced when he transitioned from playing for the Norwich Academy and Crystal Palace to starting a new career at 22.
⏰Timestamps
(0:00:06) - Football to Construction Recruitment Transition
(0:10:11) - Mental Resilience and Confidence in Football
(0:16:17) - Reflections on Playing in Lower Leagues
(0:25:00) - Playing Football
(0:31:42) - Mental Health Struggles of Athletes
(0:42:18) - Sport, Mental Health, and Personal Growth
(0:50:58) - The Value of Treating Everyone Equally
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This video is about Christian Scales Mental Health Wellness Journey After Pro Football - Ep.6. But It also covers the following topics:
Post-Sports Career Paths
Navigating Sports Retirement
Athlete Identity Shift
Video Title: Christian Scales Mental Health Wellness Journey After Pro Football - Ep.6 | InsideAMind Podcast
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Transcripts
Thank you so much for coming on, christian, and I appreciate it.
::No, it's good to be here. Obviously you didn't know Joe as well and the added extra I am. I guess, but no, it's good to be here and looking forward to getting into it really Appreciate it.
::First off, I just wanted to ask and say can you just explain to everyone about what you do a bit, about your story growing up and the main reason of why we brought you here today, please?
::Yeah, so essentially at the moment I basically work in construction recruitment in the city and prior to that I was focusing on a football career, basically playing professional football from sort of the age of six all the way through to about 22, 23. So I've sort of gone through a journey of wanting to be a professional sportsman and I know a lot of young kids obviously do and sort of transitioned now into working in the city. Obviously it's nice being with all my friends and stuff like that. So it's been a weird sort of environment and changed for me, going from a focus to not really knowing what to do and the unknown, and now sort of a little bit more stable than what I was maybe a couple of years back, coming out of professional sports.
::Yeah, that's awesome. Obviously, I know you through my brother. You get schooled together and he spoke incredibly highly of you. One of the main things I remember of you was you left school quite early to go to Norwich. Were you part of the Norwich Academy?
::Yeah, so I was part of the Norwich Academy basically, and I was still actually at school when I started playing for Norwich and I was essentially just going away on sort of day releases, they would call it where I wouldn't really play sport at school. I would just go and train with the team and train with sort of the scholars at the time which were the years above me on day release and it was just something they did. Obviously it made me have to work a little bit harder in other areas at school and try and find the time elsewhere, but yeah, so I was taking sort of time off school to go and basically focus on sport and focus on football.
::What was that like sort of at a young age, being in an environment like the Norwich Academy? Yeah, being away. Is that away from home?
::Yeah, so I was away from home. Eventually after I left school. I was away from home for like two, three years, basically staying in Diggs, and it's a weird environment where you're kind of in someone's house, kind of living in their spare room and also sort of using all of their equipment. So it's like it doesn't really feel like home, but the longer you stay there obviously it becomes more homely. I guess for this period of time you're there, but it is, I guess, as what age would I have been? I was 16, 17 at the time when I was staying in Diggs.
So it was a little bit daunting just turning up on like a Thursday, friday night for after training, just staying in someone's spare room and stuff like that as well, well they're just cooking you food and like it's an unknown, you know, it's just like, oh, we've made you this for dinner and you just kind of you'll eat it and be polite, you know, even if you didn't like it.
So, regardless, they were always a good standard but even if you didn't like it, you just you were polite and it was just nice to be able to go somewhere. But also I was in Norwich, that's two hours away, so I was sort of travelling up and that was a new place. Yeah, it is a different place, but it was quite daunting. I mean, when I first started doing it I was a little bit sort of nervous. I think the confidence thing comes massively into it because maybe I wouldn't have been sort of adverse as speaking to, you know, older individuals at a dinner table where, at a 16 year old talking to like a 50 year old about different things, you know, sometimes there's a different gap you have to bridge there. So that actually helped me a lot when it came to sort of you know, understanding of people and things like that.
::Do you come from like a predominantly football based family. Is that one of the vibe?
::Yeah.
::I swear, at school was there football? Yeah, it was mainly rugby and stuff. I remember watching you play rugby and you were just the most unbelievable athlete when I was just watching you in all sports, like one of those naturally gifted guys who just worked hard. But football wasn't really a main thing there.
::No, football wasn't a main thing at school and I mean, I was good at rugby when we had the ball, but without the ball you wouldn't see me tackling. You know. I think there was a few times where I sort of ducked out challenges and just kind of left that to me your brother probably, but, yeah, the football family essentially. So my granddad was a manager for a long period of time. My old man wasn't any good at football but he loved it and that's just how I got brought in. I'm a Spurs fan, so I've just been brought up, been brought up basically football, but going to the school that I had with Alex and stuff like that, I think that sort of made it a little bit more rounded in the sense that I got to play other sports. Otherwise, I think hood had just been predominantly focused on football and there wouldn't have been any other sports that I really focused on. So that was good.
::What was next after Norwich? I think I could be wrong. Do you go back to the Crystal Palace Academy for, like, I'm 19.
::Yeah, so I did one year at Norwich, basically as a scholar. So you get given a two year scholar. I had a two year scholarship. I ended up leaving after about a year and a half and did the rest of my scholarship at Palace. For a few reasons.
One, because there wasn't a great pathway for me at Norwich. There was also some very good players ahead of me so it was looking unlikely that I was actually going to even be able to progress there and actually get to that professional contract stage. And that's because of the players that were ahead of me in terms of the levels that you had to be at just in that academy. There was some good left-backs at the time in that position I was playing. So it was just a decision that was made from a coach literally moving from Norwich to Palace said did you want to come over? And both clubs sort of agreed and my manager at the time was happy to see me not happy to see me go, but happy to let me go because he knew that actually I'm just going to be hitting a ceiling there and not play. Yeah, maybe my progression would have been hell back, because there's people who were actually just that step ahead of me at the time.
::And was the guy still playing.
::Yeah, so one of them actually played in the Premier League. So Harry Toff Lowe, who obviously you know it's off, another one still playing in the league, like with Ben Wyatt, he recently played for some Albans. So good level football still, and they're both sort of good players and good lads as well.
::You were a left-back.
::Yeah, so I was left-back. Actually, it's funny because when I grew up playing football, I was playing in sort of strike, a left wing, as everyone wants to be, but as it got more serious and got to a better level, it sort of I moved my way back down the pitch and I was never going to be a goalkeeper, let's be honest. So it's one of them that's got to left-back and otherwise I was going to be on the bench.
::Did you put it down to a timing thing when you were at Norwich? So those guys were just in a good place at that point.
::No, they were older than me. But also, I think you can look at sort of where players develop from different times. I mean, my best development came when I actually moved to Palace and after sort of a year at Palace my best development came through that and it was maybe the environment. The environment's a massive thing, I guess, especially when it comes to confidence. I mean, if you're in an environment where you're seen to be one of the better players, obviously that makes you confident, feels you have confidence, and I mean it wasn't that I wasn't confident when I was at Norwich, but I knew that there was these two people ahead of me who I actually rated highly myself, so that's in the back of your mind.
You know you come out in walks of life if you know someone's good at something. Yeah, you know that you're good at something. But you also in the back of your mind know, how am I as good as him? And you do doubt yourself in those situations and I think that's something that I definitely did.
::Yeah. So when you went to Palace, what I wanted to know is in terms of, like mental health stuff and what you go through. You're at a young age, you know 17, 18, hormonal years, you know puberty, you're growing up. What type of stuff would like these Premier League clubs have in place to help you guys going through? Would you have like advisors, or you just left through your own devices, kind of thing?
::Funnily enough, just as I was leaving Norwich, they actually introduced and it's weird to say, because what would I have been 17, I think they actually started to introduce sort of a sort of a health and mind type coach and it was something they were only just introducing and it wasn't really prevalent through me growing up that it was even a thing in terms of sort of mental health. When I moved over to Palace, I think my mental health was in such a good place and my football was in such a good place and I was playing well that I actually didn't think about it. It wasn't until, obviously, subsequently I left Palace, that sort of started taking a toll on me really. But at Palace there wasn't, I'd say, a lot of focus on you know, your mental health. It was more.
There was someone you could go to talk to, but it wasn't labelled as sort of someone that you would go to if you were having mental health issues or if you were down or if you were you know, I don't know having problems at home. There was that person that you could go to if you were having problems at home, if you were having problems with the Diggs people that you were staying with. There was that person, but there wasn't so much a psychologist or anything like that that we could sort of go to. But it has become more prevalent now than it was when I was sort of growing up, and I think that's, you know, for the better really.
::Yeah, for sure. So you made your debut for Palace when you were 17, or 17, 18?
::Yeah, 17, 18, yeah, I believe it was. I forget to say, but what was that like?
::I mean, you know, making your debut at such a young age of people like I saw you come off the bench with Johann Kabard.
::Yeah, yeah no, it was great fun. I mean, in those moments you kind of just think that you've made it. But that's the headspace you should get yourself in, because you're like wow, and you kind of start to look at yourself from out of body. If you're not, I mean because you're coming on the football pitch and you're going on to a pitch where there's like Zahar Kaba'i, all these people that you're playing with, and Pinch yourself a moment.
Yeah, pinch yourself a moment, and I think it was actually only in a pre-season friendly on a tour in South Africa that I made sort of a debut, so to speak. But it was just, yeah, like you say, like an out of body moment where you just like, oh, this is what I've been wanting since I was six, and you've got to like a almost there moment. So it's a very sort of weird experience, but also one that you sort of remember. I mean, I'd never forget that day in South Africa.
::I saw on the last podcast talk you did. You spoke a bit about Wilfred Zahar and he gave you like some sort of advice.
::Yeah.
::What would these players like? Because obviously, you know, we've never been around Premier League footballers. That's such like a cool thing to say. Such a Small amount people have done that.
::What are?
::these like big guys? Are they welcoming to the younger guys? Are they sort of a bit, you know, passive, aggressive towards you guys, trying to take their spot? So what? I think that, like I, think it's.
::It's like a 50-50 really, because what you have to remember is, at the end of the day, you're basically the person that's trying to take their spot.
Yeah so you know if, if, if you come in and you're unbelievable and there's two left-backs who are in the squad and you know you're gonna, you're basically gonna come on and Essentially take their spot if you perform, you know you're taking their livelihood away and I know obviously it's a very fruitful livelihood in terms of the amount you can earn, but you're essentially you know you're the competition within your own club. Obviously you play as a team to win football matches, but the day-to-day is tough. It's obviously a position where you know Everyone wants to be in that 11. So, yes, they are welcoming and, to be fair, they get.
They gave a lot of them gave a lot of support and and basically the underlying thing was you know the amount of times people told me that wasn't good enough. You know I can count that more time than I can. People said are you're really good? Because you know, I think, I think there's there's a thing where they say like 1% of people become professional sportsmen or 1% of people become footballers, and so it's basically rooted in your head that you're not gonna make it before you've even started.
::Coming back to what we actually told us about when I was on that podcast. Yeah actually, if you were to get all these grades and you get one bad grade, you're focusing on the one bad one wrong.
::Yeah, good, no, let's get one.
::So you've been told throughout your whole young career how good you are as a sportsman. Mm-hmm and yet one or two, three, four people say it and you start to believe it in yourself. When that's what plague.
::Yeah, it's a massive lease yeah exactly that's tough in terms of like these top players, you know, just speak about them Zaha, goodbye. Well, they're sort of like any underlying themes in these guys which they had like in terms of mentally, where they just incredibly resilient, were they organized, were they doing stuff behind the scenes. What is there an underlying factor in this, or is it more just these guys, we incredibly gifted no, I think they worked hard.
::Yeah, I think obviously the gift of come comes into it, because you have to be naturally good at sport or a good athlete, but I think the sort of the work rate and the sort of mental Attitude of I don't care who comes in front of me, I am gonna be the best I can be and not letting anything sort of wave you on that sort of path, that's the biggest strength is just being able to go. You know, so do you may. Basically, I'm gonna make it. I don't care that you've just told me no and that's all of the.
The top level players where I came across, that was their mentality regardless. And no, you know they could have a bad game, but that's a matter. That's just a blip. So the next game they're going have an unbelievable game it's and and getting yourself in the mindset of forgetting what's just happened is very hard to do. So, for example, you've played about 90 minutes. Forgetting that 10 minutes or an hour later might be very hard for someone like myself, but I think these top guys they can forget about it, look at it and go. That's why I was bad in this game. I should have done this better. And then in the next game they come back and they're unbelievable again. Yeah, and I think that's the biggest thing is just being able to sort of put things behind you.
::Would you say that's the main difference between some of them and yourself, where they were able to sort of forget the bad game and forget the bad press? Yeah, that's something that really played on your mind. Maybe that you think that's yeah.
::Yeah, I think keeping sort of a level confidence rather than a sort of up and down Confidence is something that will get you, will get you very far, I think, in all walks of life. I think you know if you can keep a 75% confidence all the time and and you know, when you walking with your shoulders held higher down the street, it's so different to going from 10% confidence or 100% confidence, but sporadically and I think that is, you know, not just in sport but in life confidence is such a massive thing and if you can keep it at a certain level when you you're comfortable in yourself and in your own skin, that is where you know. I think that that is where you get the best out of yourself as a person and the human. When you can keep that confidence and knowing what and you know it's hard to do. I mean, day to day I go through confidence dips and that's all the time.
But that is what I think, especially in football, when they keep can keep that confidence above sort of certain percentage and they just Believe in themselves to an empty degree, that is where I believe that the next level takes to, because they always said hard work. It's obviously the things that gets you over the line. But there's, I think there's, like there's not just hard work physically, there's hard work mentally as well, like Mentally, to keep yourself that structured. That's hard work.
Exactly. So yeah, I would. I would agree with you in saying that that is probably the difference.
::Yeah, I read that. So, from 18 year old, at Crystal Palace, what was the next move from there? Because you had Alan Pardew as your manager.
::Yeah, so I played on loan.
I played in the league, which was obviously a massive high point, and playing in the league was sort of another sort of a tick box, I guess, because you know you're playing in the football league in front of a crowd who come to support that club as their hometown club.
So that was great and I had some really good times in the first sort of half of that loan. But then I wish I had some really negative times in the second half of that loan when I was just out the team and sort of just knowing that I wasn't going to come on the pitch, and that was hard to deal with. But at the same time, after Crawley it was basically the rejection of you know, you're not getting another contract at Crystal Palace, so that was a tough one to take. And then from there I sort of went on trial at a load of different places. And going on trial at a load of different places and getting loads of rejections is something that's very hard to deal with and I think that's something that actually made me a lot stronger now than I actually even realised it would.
::Then I was going to say that, coming back to what you were saying earlier about not making the team and then not knowing what you're coming or going in- the squad was that injury? Was that sort of just variation of selecting different players, or was that down to it?
::It purely comes down to results. I think we had a really good start to the year and then results slipped off to sort of nine and ten games in, and I think the manager obviously felt that me, being a young and experienced player and I don't blame him for it I probably would have done the same thing as Vars and his shoes. He had an older, more experienced player put him in and results started to turn, maybe purely because of consistency, because obviously when you're young, you're kind of finding out what you're going to get out of the player. A manager is finding out what they're going to get out of the player, and to keep consistent at such young age is incredible really, and that was, I think, why I dropped out the team and couldn't get back in, really because the other person kept consistent and I didn't.
::And again, it comes out to confidence as well. Once your confidence gets knocked, naturally you're not going to play as well. That plagues in your mind and, as you said, that mindset thing earlier, once you start thinking about those performances it eats away at it as well.
::Exactly One thing I want to ask as well is I'm sure there's a lot of young athletes out there. I've sort of just gone through it with rugby where I was in the e-ling environment and I was like, yeah, made it, made it Humbled very quickly A few months straight out back to university and that really knocked me for six, but again, like you said before, taught me so many lessons that I just wouldn't have had otherwise. I think that's the beauty in high level sport is it teaches you about resilience, teaches you about you're going to fail a lot and you've just got to accept it and you've got to keep moving forward. The question I want to ask was is there any advice that you'd give to someone who's in that position now, an 18 year old? 17 year old who might be going out there to make their debut and thinking, you know, I've made it and this is it? What advice would you give to someone?
::Yeah, I'd probably now looking back, say to them like, remember why you first started playing. Because you all start playing for the enjoyment, and when you enjoy something and you don't think about it, you tend to, you know, do it with that play better. Or so one I'd say is just remember why you started the journey of playing the sport, because I think then you'd actually perform better. Because once you start getting into your own head about, okay, I need to be, I need to do this, I need to do this, I need to be better, I need to be better, I haven't done this that's when you start getting on top of yourself.
I think, if you're just able to go back right when I started playing football like, for example, me when I was playing for Benjo Tigers on a Saturday morning, which is just my local team the only thing I wanted to do all week was play that game football for 90 minutes and it wasn't too impressive. It was just because I love doing it, and I think that's what you've got to. You know, look back on and remember is why you started playing the game that you love in the first place, and it will probably bring the best out of you because you've got the ability anyway and a lot of these kids do have great ability and they might not make it for a number of different reasons that actually might not be ability in the end, yeah well, what's it like playing in the lower leagues as well, when you went out on loan?
::Yeah, is that is it completely different. Obviously, I never played football.
::Yeah. No, I don't think you ever played football either.
::Yeah, so is that like a completely different environment from what it looks like when we watch. So my family are older supporters.
::Yeah.
::Which are like national league team.
::Yeah.
::And they play like aggressive physical football. Really, yeah, they don't play the fast diving round. The fans are nuts.
::Yeah.
::It's like great to watch, but is it like a big difference when it comes to stuff like that? Is it more physical and less technical when you get lower down?
::I wouldn't say less technical. I just think there's less technical time spent on the ball in terms of you know it's a results business. The lower down you get and obviously I have it still a results business. But the way you do it it's slightly different. It is much more physical when you go out and play men's football and you notice it straight away because the first thing that will probably happen to you if you are a player on loan, they know it's your first game because they're probably just going to stick one on you and just let you know.
By the way, you're here now so you're going to have them. You know you're basically going to have to either step up or see a swim, like basically, you know it's one of those, but it was a massive step up in physicality and also a massive step up in terms of the pressure, because you know everyone else around you is relying on bonuses and stuff if you win. So there aren't bonuses when you're playing in the under twenty ones To get for getting a win, you just say, oh yeah, we won.
::You don't seem to have much of an ego. Just from the 10 minutes I've known you. But did you find that it was hard to go from a sort of better standard where you thought you could be there and you deserved to be there? Was it hard to then make that transition of playing with players who were bowl means very good players playing in national leagues slightly below? Was it hard for you to think they're just with mentally, just to play with players that you thought I'd really envisage being here maybe a year or two ago?
::In a way, yes, but I think you adjust quite quickly in terms of you're there, you're there basically to prove the person who's basically sent you there or you've got there for a certain reason, wrong basically. So you know you just want to perform to the best of your ability and I mean in terms of sort of characters and egos and things you literally get them from. However high and high in the profession, you are all the way to the bottom. Characters and egos are just there. So you have to basically just be yourself essentially. And you know there are some huge and large characters in football and you know I came across some great people but the be all and end all basically, was that you're all there to try and get higher up the pyramid in a way, and even I'd say you're sort of 27, 28, 29 journeymen. They still want to play really well and earn their money and earn their bonuses and even if they can nick a move, they will still try and do that at that age.
So, yeah, no, it was. It was, I don't want to say, like a humbling. Like we said before, it wasn't a humbling, but it was more sort of a, a realization that actually you know the glitz and the glam and the money isn't the thing that you might end up doing and playing, because you know you can earn some really good money in football playing in the lower leagues and you don't have to have another job. Some people, some people we know, work two jobs and play in the lower leagues. Like it's so interesting because you come across so many different people, so many different people who love football and play football for money and can earn money from playing football but also have other things that are going on as well. So it was, it was good that I actually got that in a way, because it actually put me in front of a lot of people who necessarily might not have met yeah, so what's your view on the rexham thing?
::because you were saying about making a lot of money in the lower leagues. Paul Mullen, who's there like star, like golden boy, star striker. I read an article that he's on five grand a week. Yeah, national league football, which it just seems like crazy that's like what? Nearly quarter of a million a year for national league football. How many players are there like that in in an around and getting rexham's kind of an anomaly because of Ryan Reynolds?
and stuff, but in terms of the club as a whole as well, like what's your view on rexham and the other players being paid like around?
::I just, I just think you know if someone buys a club and they've got our visions to get to the Premier League or whatever their dream is to do with the club, you know it comes with it, like if you want to play a striker, five grand a week to get you there, and that's what's going to do it, then I don't think people can complain about it.
Really it it's not football's fault that there's a lot of money in it. It's because it's such an attractive game that the money's there and and people would, people would probably. Well, paul Mullen would probably complain if he was getting paid 50, 50 pound a match trying to get rexham. Then he knows that there's that much money. Do you know what I mean? So it it's all relative, but. But I think the money, the money side of things, for me, the money side of things would, I guess, counteract everything else in that in that sense. But no, it's an interesting one because I have watched it closely. But I think they'll probably end up getting nearer or thereabouts eventually, but it might take a long time.
::Yeah, the next thing we wanted to touch on was, obviously, you made the transition to go to Sweden to play football. What was that like? As a whole, you know, moving country.
::Yeah, no, it was actually really great in terms of the how it came about. You know, I moved actually out there with one of my mates, like a Will Hor, who played a palace with me, so we'd been sort of playing away from each other and then come back to playing with each other in Sweden. So we moved out there and everything was unbelievable. So they had a, they bought us an apartment, food was provided, so everything was, you know, in place for us to do really well. The team were great, the coach was great.
I've mentioned a few times before that it was actually the happiest I'd ever been playing football, but also then subsequently, the most unhappy I've ever been. So I had, like the, the, the two sides of the core and where it was like you know, you're so, you're so happy in the way that you're playing football and how you're playing it, but then, at the same time, also unhappy become the end of the actual stint in Sweden, essentially. But yeah, I moved out there and joined a team called Skellefteå, who were in the sort of north part of Sweden, and it was a. It was a good experience, especially playing football abroad and living away from home and, you know, living on my own with power. That's such a great thing that you so many you know you've done there, I guess. So living with your mates is quite quite fun so you mentioned earlier.
::I said it's the happiest you've been, yet the sad. And what did you put that down to? Because if it's the happiest you've been on the pitch, the best you played with your mates. Everything else that in itself should be everything right everything you want in football yeah what?
::what did you put it down to in terms of the sad as you've been, all the hard as you've yeah, I think I got myself in such a weird place when I was out there, in terms of everything that was me as a person Christian Skellefteå wasn't there in terms of I love my family and stuff like that, so I was being away from family. I found that really hard, and it wasn't hard in terms of I'm ringing my mom and dad up every day, it was just that they're not there for you to just go. Oh, mom, do you want a tea, or she's like, well, more so, she would probably be like to me. Do you want a?
tea and I'd be like yeah but um, but like it's, those little things are just having them close and and I basically became like a hermit in a way, that I was just in my room and not doing the things that maybe at home I would. I'm always sort of someone who would go out and see my mates and have fun, but there it came to a point where I was just like going to training, going back to my room playing FIFA, going back to training the next day we're sleeping going back to training playing FIFA, and it was like over and over and over again, on repeat, and I didn't really do much. And it wasn't down to the people because they would invite me every but I just didn't want to do things and I didn't really understand it at first and I think in every way I end up leaving Sweden was because I was in such an unhappy place in myself, not because of the football, but just because I just didn't want to do things and it felt like an effort to go and do things. How did that?
::manifest when you were there? Was it just keeping yourself to yourself, or did you become irritable? Did you become sort of depressed? Looking back on that, can you look back and think the Christian then was depressed or anxious, or yeah, at the time you're sort of in this little bubble of your own. Actually, how did that manifest, looking back at?
::now I don't know whether I could call it depression because you don't know, I don't really know, I couldn't tell you whether it was or not like, but it certainly was an unhappy place in terms of I'd sit in my room and all I would want to do is sit in my room and play FIFA and then just go to sleep or watch a series. I wouldn't want to go out and just go for a bit of food and I just got in a situation where that was all I wanted to do. Even though it was making me unhappy, it made me happy to just do that and it was such a weird, a weird environment where in the end, I was just like maybe it does make you a little bit more grouchy. I guess actually because I'm living with someone and you know negative energy is quite easy to see when you're with someone. So my mate wanted to help me as much as possible and he actually was very, very supportive and I was thanking him for that, but it there was nothing that he could possibly do or say to me that was making me feel better. It was only once I started sort of talking about it that I still started to feel better and about it and then subsequently made the decision to come home and it was like a weight off my shoulders.
When I came home I remember coming through the airport, like being down for like months or like a month or two months, and being down and walking through the airport and mum and dad and my sister were just waiting for them.
I was just like you know what, thank god, like I'm home, because I'd got myself in such a bad routine and I do think it probably did stem from sort of me playing football for a long period of time, from like six years old, and the only thing I ever felt I had was football.
So there it was like epitomized, because the only reason I was there for football was for football. So all I was doing was football and everything else was just in my room. So like it felt like the only thing the Christian Scales had as a person, as a character, was football. And once I realized that actually you know there's not, it's football's not the end of the world, you know you don't have to be away in Sweden chasing your dream for the next four or five years and chasing a contract, once I realized that it was, it was quite sort of a relief, I guess, off my shoulders and made a decision to come back and stop playing football. Um, but yeah, it was, it was. It was a tough period of time and I didn't really know myself where I was.
::It sounds like a lonely place there actually when you think about it it was quite a lonely place.
::Actually. It was quite lonely even though I had everything to not be lonely.
::I was so lonely in my in in myself there, but it wasn't nothing to do with anyone else and that's the weirdest thing, like everyone else around me was brilliant, but I just wasn't brilliant at the time and that was obviously a weird situation do you think sort of coming back, stopping football, looking back on it now was the best thing for you at the time, and sort of getting a fresh start going into work in the city is that was what you're doing now and, you know, doing really well for yourself. It was that the best thing for you at that age? How old are you? 21 22.
::Yes, I was 21, 22 and I'm now 26 and looking back, like sitting here, I can honestly say that I have someone who once said to me when I sat at like 15, 16, you know, when you come to the end of your football career, don't have any regrets. And people would look at my football career when I ended up 22 and say he must have so many regrets because I didn't make it or I didn't quite make it. I didn't quite do this. But I can happily sit here and say now that it was the best decision for me to stop playing football, because I was the last sort of three and a half four years that I'd stopped playing properly.
I've been so much happier in myself and I guess it's a number of things the pressure of football and and like I mentioned just now, football being the only thing that you sort of have to hold on to. But yeah, I think it was the best decision for me to stop playing and sometimes you have to make the decision because I still love football. I don't get me wrong, I don't love playing football because of all the things that come with it in terms of pressure and where my head was at in football, but I still love football, but I'm just happier in myself and going to watch football. I'd rather watch someone else be brilliant in football now than you know playing myself. Honestly, I couldn't think of anything worse than playing with 90 minutes now seriously it's what it's all.
::It's weird yeah, couldn't so in terms of like what? What I always find interesting with with athletes of this level is you know you have all the money, you have all the cars, you know people look up to you, but all these guys have like abusive comments, like death threats, on their Instagram and all these things I look at.
I'm like, why are people commenting that over a game of football? And there are a lot of players who have all this money, you know, the cars, the house, the girlfriend, the kids now like, who are just like deeply unhappy, and especially these top clubs. You don't see that side of people. But the pressure that, like, these are normal people, these aren't, you know, robots, these are people like us three, yeah, who are out there playing in front of 80,000 people, yeah, and just getting abused like that, must take its toll on a lot of these guys mentally, especially the people at Crystal Palace and yeah, I mean I.
::I think, let's be honest like there's definitely people in that situation struggling yeah, like they might.
They do. Probably these people do have all the money in that these players will be still be struggling and it's I guess now they've got more support and they can come out and talk to people and it doesn't have to be in the public or anything like that. But but I also think you know, in terms of the abuse thrown at them. I think, to a certain extent, a lot of these people got to where they are because they're very good at batting out negatives. Yeah, obviously, to a certain extent. When it comes and it crosses the line, you know, in terms of racism or personal stuff, and I think that is where the game needs to change. I think that has to be kicked out of everything. But to a certain extent, these people have been able to bat off negatives their whole life to get to where they wanted to be, so they'll be very good at that.
And that's not to say that they aren't affected by the comments, because, let's be honest, if you had a barrage of comments coming through on a post that you put up just because your friends would like it or just because the fans that you follow would like it, you know it would eventually take a toll on you and but I definitely think you know there's a lot of players out there who are probably struggling, a lot of sportsmen who are probably struggling, and it might not necessarily be to do a sport, it might be to do with other other things that people with mental health suffers as well. But yeah, I 100% think that there's people out there suffering with mental health that you just would never know, because it is very sort of a. I was sort of very plain when I was unhappy. I wouldn't really show my emotion, I'd just rinse and repeat, like I mentioned earlier, and I was just still the same character when I was talking to people, because it was very easy to hide it. I think, yeah, did you?
::did you watch the um deli alley documentary?
::they came out yeah, yeah, that that really, really highlights of me a change.
::Where do you think that's going to become more of a a phenomenon? Because on the surface I mean being a sports fan as well. I looked at deli alley. I thought I was one of the ones that criticized him not on, not on nine, but I was one of the he's. He's thrown away a really promising career. He was one of the brightest talents in English football. He's gone over to Bishik Tassan. He's basically just partied his way up and when you watch it back, everything makes sense.
The way he went off for training or, basically, would take the piss.
And taking for granted the natural talent that he had. However, looking at a documentary back, you can really empathize with him and his upbringing, which he didn't need to come out and do, but I feel that that well, I hope that does change things. They probably won't, to be honest with you in terms of the hate that these players get, but I hope that with these more poignant conversations around those sports not just footballers but across the world, like Joe Marlar and rugby is do you think that needs to become more of a thing for people to maybe understand a bit better and maybe not target these players, or do you think that will always be this?
::Yeah, I think if you have people like Delhi, ali, people like Joe Marlar and they're strong enough to come out and say what's going on and actually show their issues, that's going to help a lot of people who basically see themselves as nobody's, because they've got such a big platform and they are using it in the right way. And I mean Delhi coming out and speaking about what happened to him you know, you couldn't even write that script if you tried to. What happened to him and him coming out and being able to do that, he had the message I think he sort of said I just want to help other people now from my story. But you know, yeah, exactly, and I think that is where it needs to be used the most is if they are suffering and they can get through it and they can still come out and smile and sit in front of someone. That should help younger people as well, and I think that that is the route that it's going in the minute with. That is unbelievable. On that.
::Do you think that my words on the heartbreaking article the heartbreaking article about a youth player in man City a number of years ago and I was at 14, took his own life because of the pressures that was put on him when he was released? Yeah, do you think there's enough in the clubs, even in this day and age, since you've certainly come through the ranks and obviously stopped playing? Do you think that the clubs are doing enough, whether it be the FA or whatever, are doing enough to help young players? Because, as you said, one percent of players will get through and make it into the internet.
::Like what in terms of their clubs yeah, it is probably less than that Like the percentages are so small, the chances are so little.
::Do you think that these players are getting enough? Not just education outside of football, but help if they don't make it?
::Yeah, I think that's a big thing. I don't think there's enough support networks. There might be more now. Obviously, I haven't been in the academy systems for a number of years now but I don't think there is enough support for players who don't know what they're going to do once they jump out of football.
Obviously, the way it would work I think in terms of the way it works at the minute is you just keep filtering down the leagues until you find your level and then you play, whether that be semi-pro or whether that be full-time, and you play semi-pro, professional.
So that's three days a week. You train on Tuesday, Thursday and then you've got a game on Saturday most of the time. So in those spaces in between, these younger players will play at that level until a certain age and then they'll probably continue to play at that level but then realise they actually need to get a job as well, because I'm going to try and afford a house, I need to have a family, I need to support a kid, whatever it is, and that's how it sort of worked and that's how I think it's just filtered down. There is no sort of stability in terms of a player leaves a, let's say, a man-city, for example, at 16, 17, doesn't get a scholarship has committed a lot to, obviously, football, like I did, in terms of leaving classes and missing and having to catch up on the work. So they've done that. They're sort of just left high and dry in terms of okay, well, now I've left that club, so I need to try and just focus on football.
::So cutthroat isn't it.
::It is cutthroat in a way, but I also think that, again, it's slightly the way my mind works. It is kind of life as well. Like you know, there is a 50-50 balance on it. You know it is just life like if you get fired from your job, you don't see the company helping you find another job ever, do you? So you have to look at it a little bit more sort of, I guess, as a job, because I know if I left my job I don't think the company that I'm at now will try and help you find somewhere else. So that's the way of looking at it as well, true.
::You know, you touched on there about like once you kind of stop football, like you're sort of on your own and you're a bit like Limba, yeah, shit, like what do I do? Yeah, a lot of these like footballers. You know a lot of people in the rugby system who are my age now, like they don't do university, they don't finish college, they do whatever, and then they're like you know what rugby's for me, which is in our case, I'm gonna make it.
::Yeah, never yeah, and someone will do their ACL and that's it.
::Yeah, do you think you know doing an education or doing courses, doing things on the side when you are like that sort of 18 to 21 age is important, or do you think it's kind of just give it your best shot and find your feet afterwards? Or would you look back and go? I'm not sure what you did. You could have done stuff, but would. If you look back, would you go? Yeah, I wish I sort of did uni on the side, whether it's open university or whatever.
::No, I wish I actually kept up with sort of my sort of education in terms of whilst I was doing it, because I would have something behind me to say, well, at least I can put that on my CV and say I've got that. And I never did that. I was never that way inclined. I was never that intelligent when it comes to sort of book smart and doing exams, things like that. I never actually wanted to go to uni. Probably would have gone to uni for sport. I think Only reason why I would have gone is probably for sport, because I could continue playing sport and then obviously you get the education with it. But I wish, I wish I actually kept up and did things on the side. But it is obviously a massive.
It's a massive thing to sort of get yourself motivated to do when you're playing sport and you're just like well, I'm gonna be a footballer, so why do I need to do that? And you're in that mindset at that point. So it's very hard to get yourself out of that mindset when your only thing is to be that and so you don't focus on anything else. But there is actually support networks now in academies where they can and clubs where they will pay. Even Premier League footballers, if they really wanted to, could get an education in something. There was a guy when I was playing at Leighton Orient who was doing alongside playing. He was doing a sort of law degree and that was supported by the club and the PFA. So there is things there.
::When I was playing at Ealing just from my point of view is when you're with the Wands you actually have a lot more time than you think. You think oh, you know, I'm gonna go in, I'm gonna play rugby. You're there all day, you're not there all day you've done it like three and you're in early. You've done it three. You have a lot of these guys now.
I was talking to Megan about it, my girlfriend was a lot of these guys who are in their 30s now are like shit, I'm doing courses, doing qualifications, because they didn't do it.
And I think that's so important, especially if you're like 60, 70, 18, I nearly messed this up really bad. It was only my dad being like no, keep going, keep going where I was like why I'm gonna play rugby. Just to clarify, I'm not a professional rugby player now, so it worked out well for me carrying on it uni. But yeah, I completely agree. Like I think it's important to have something behind the scenes and I think there must be a great lesson, something that makes you more hungry. You know, in work now. You didn't carry that on, but you found your feet and you're doing incredibly well now working in your job. And what type of stuff did sports teach you that you've transferred into your work life now, which gives you an advantage that you can't just do a nine till three job.
::I was thinking about the whole time. It was nice when I started at nine and finished three. The way to do it was kick a football round for a while. No, it taught me loads.
I mean, the competitive side of me has never been, never left me, and so that's a massive thing.
But also being within sport, you meet so many different people in so many different walks of life and, especially when you don't expect it as well, you could be coming up against someone and playing up against someone that is very good at football, and after the game you're having a chat with them and they might mention something for a second and you're like, wow, I've never really thought of that and I think that's the biggest thing because it just allows you to talk to anyone, because you've already met characters like it or had larger characters presented.
I think sport is a very good starting point for business in a way, because you kind of already have those characteristics instilled in you from playing sport the competitiveness. You have to be sharp and mentally sharp. You always have to be really organised. You have to be time management a massive thing when you're playing sport, because you need to be certain places at certain times, eat food at certain times and all that sort of stuff. So it does get you sort of regimented in working in a certain way, which I actually think employers probably really like and would look at as a massive positive 100%.
::Do you think that the lessons you might have learnt from maybe taking setbacks through your football career has done you a good stead for the workplace now? Like you said earlier about it being life and obviously growing a thicker skin, do you think? That's given you a thicker skin, or do you think that's just how you are as a person?
::Yeah, I think I haven't really let anything get on top of me, and the only time I think would be when I was in Sweden and everything just became too much. And I do think it has made me realise that you know, as what happens, you've still got a good life, you're still happy now, so anything that sort of traps me at work, yeah, I might come home and be moody about it, but I'm showing my mood rather than the mood being stuck within, and I guess, if you guys have been through mental health, the hardest thing to do when you're sort of unhappy is show the emotion, and the emotion is actually all inside you, but it's just like a blanket, like you just I can't describe it. To be honest, when I was there, I was actually just me and just being happy and as I would go about and talk to anyone, but inside it was just like it was just the weirdest feeling, because when I'm unhappy, unhappy, I'll tell people I'm unhappy.
When I'm happy, you can see I'm happy, I'm smiling, I'm having a good time.
But when I was in that situation, it was just I didn't know how to put it yeah, it was it was almost like a mask, sort of masking over sort of cracks, or just wanting to just sit in a room with no one in front of me and just say everything that's happening. But there's people listening so they know that they can help you. But I don't want to look them in the eye and say it to them, sort of thing. And that was the weird situation I think is it's great. I have a great group of friends at the moment where everyone's very open about their mental health and we've kind of instilled that in our group. And I don't know about you guys if you do that with your friends?
::Yeah, I do, and my friends are. You're very open as well.
::Yeah, and that's been amazing for all of us because we're all going through different mental health issues at different stages in our life for different reasons.
But you know that there's someone in the group that you can just go and talk to and that's quite a big thing, I think. You know. I think making it so you have a safe group of mates who all are okay to talk to each other and know that no matter what you say to that person, they're going to react. Of course they're going to react because it's your mate and they care for you, but they're going to react in a certain way that can just give you that sort of hold up to say like you're alright mate, like I'm here no matter what and not judge you about it. And we've sort of instilled that in our group, which is amazing and I think that's a massive thing for friendship groups, I think, to allow in, and I think that's actually a big way that professional sports teams will actually grow as well if the group is very open. Obviously it's hard because, you know, not every teammate you ever play with is going to be your best mate. We tried to.
::We spoke about that in the last podcast, when Tom actually properly got together and spoke about it is that actually not having loads of mates, but just a few that you really know and trust? Makes the biggest difference and sort of making it sort of spurs related. As much as possible you can do is that you can see it when you're watching the team now and look there's a real togetherness there's a real family feel about it and that must be a huge impact on not just the team and the way they play and obviously they're playing great football but also off the pitch.
You can see it like when you look at behind the scenes. You see behind the scenes, but I love all the videos where you see them all together on the training pitch away from the cameras. You can see they absolutely love being around each other, and that's probably what you've probably got with your withdrawing friends as well. You love each other, but actually there's something deeper beneath that, where you can have a conversation and chat about stuff away from it.
::Yeah, for sure.
::I love that.
::What's your plan going forward now for the next couple of years? What's going on in the next couple of?
::years. So I work in construction, recruitment basically, and I've been doing that for sort of three and a half years. The plan is basically to just buy a house and move in with my girlfriend, have kids, things like that. And actually, you know, since, from a young age I've always wanted to have a family and that was the reason why I was initially the driver for my football was because I wanted to buy a house and have a family. Everyone has sort of different goals, I guess, but for me that was one of the things that drove me through my sport.
::That's really rare though, yeah, that's something that I really would never expect at any football, even post career to ever admit, because most footballers are so fixated on just being a footballer and all the things that come with that actually, whether not necessarily the fast cars and the fast women or whatever. It's actually just being a friend, but footballer is just the height of any person's career whereas for you to come out and say it's because you wanted to buy a house and have a family.
::It could get me them quicker.
::basically, yeah, that's amazing that you would want that for those reasons which actually comes back to the whole thing in the first place is that you took criticism so much to heart because it wasn't actually a driving force to be a footballer. Actually it was. The people that might not take it to heart are the ones who are actually caring about those things anyway, because it's all materialistic.
::So it's just being a footballer is their self-focused Actually?
::it comes back to what we were talking about earlier in terms of allowing things to affect you a bit too much, maybe because the driving force wasn't actually being put in the first place.
::Yeah, I think the I always wanted to be a footballer but I knew that the reason why I wanted to be a footballer was to get certain things and that even at sort of I'd say, when I started wanting those things probably was 13, 14, 15, 16, when I'd see my older cousins and stuff and they were all growing up and having kids or whatever and I just I was like, yeah, I want that and it was the reason. A big reason now still is why I want to do well in my work, because inevitably I want to buy a house, have a family and do all those things. Everyone has certain things they want. There's obviously other things that I also want as well to keep my season ticket at Spurs every year and stuff like that. But yeah, that is a big thing for me. So, to sort of answer the question, I guess the big goal is to basically hopefully live in Hertfordshire because I always have my whole life and I think how boring is that.
By the way, I want to live in Hertfordshire. But yeah, probably buy a house in Hertfordshire, have a family and keep working hard and having good fun with my mates.
::Basically I've always loved how humble you were, especially like getting to know you what my cousins said and stuff, and that was always his thing as well Incredibly humble guy, hard working guy. You must look back on these things at 17, 18 and just go. That's ridiculous. I haven't had an immense amount of pride. Looking back and I think that's the nice thing to hear about is you could easily be. This was rubbish, but you're not. You're so positive about it and I think that's such like a refreshing thing to see, especially in footballers is you can get driven by this money and become very toxic especially a lot of ex sportsmen become quite toxic, but you seem to be thriving. I feel like Percy, just getting to know you, this has been the right path for you and it's taught you a lot of valuable lessons and stuff as well.
::Yeah, I think it has. I don't really think much of my football now in terms of I am proud of what I did, but I don't really think about it too much because I'm focused on what I'm doing now and that's kind of where I'm at with all of that.
::The chapter yeah, exactly. I'm wary of time, so I'm just going to end it on this and this was a question that I got asked on my Instagram poll, when I told people you were coming on and I just thought it was really good and it was looking back at all the challenges you've gone through. What do you think is the most valuable lesson life has taught you?
::Cool, that is a tough question.
::I thought it was a great question.
::Yeah, it is a good question.
The most valuable lesson I would probably the biggest lesson, and it rings true to me is that someone once said to me always treats the least important person in the room as the most important, as you would the most important.
And I think, since I've actually started doing that, you actually earn better relationships with the more important people in the room anyway, because you're not starting off trying to gain their appreciation, you're actually just talking to people on a level, and so that's probably the biggest lesson I've been taught is, no matter what happens and I think it's actually quite a big thing, because if you come in as a sort of 17 year old, 18 year old, into a team of 20 to 30 year olds, you're the least important person in the room. So, being that least important person in the room, I felt that and that is what I'd say is the one lesson I would always go on to give, because I was taught that is that that you know my first thing to do in a room would be to, you know, maybe go and speak to the least important not that you were on the narrow, but just treat everyone equally and I think it actually gets you further and earns better relationships with people who actually can boost you or you boost your life.
That's why I should wear my first.
::Yeah, of course, chrisie. What a pleasure man.
::Thank you so much for coming on.
